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- Thank you, the range is very interesting; I will have to consider how best to use this data. BilledMammal (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- Just realized that I didn't filter out disambiguations. Unfortunately I can't think of a good way to query the disambiguation status of pages in 2021, besides parsing the full dump. I do have a program for that, so I might adapt it. Alternatively you can take (Data) - (Current disambiguations). Ovinus (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think the number of articles that existed as something other than disambiguation's in 2021 but don't exist as disambiguation's now will be small enough to make no meaningful difference to the data, so I think your second suggestion will be sufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 05:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Just realized that I didn't filter out disambiguations. Unfortunately I can't think of a good way to query the disambiguation status of pages in 2021, besides parsing the full dump. I do have a program for that, so I might adapt it. Alternatively you can take (Data) - (Current disambiguations). Ovinus (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
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Quarry
Hi BilledMammal, I have noticed you know how to use quarry. I am interested in obtaining some results on userviews of certain articles. Like all articles of a certain category. Like this category. Or all articles an editor has 20%< share of the contributions. Or all articles a user brought to a GA. etc. I would like to be able to conduct such quarry-queries myself, so I could also check another category or editor. Is this possible? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:49, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Paradise Chronicle: Unfortunately, Quarry doesn't store information on an articles pageviews. Ovinus has downloaded the complete dataset from here (although it seems to only have data up until 2020?) and they might be able to help, but that wouldn't enable you to run your own queries. BilledMammal (talk) 05:38, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I can get day-granular page views for articles in a category. Let me know if you want that. If you think people would find it useful, I'll try make a web interface, although I've never made a Toolforge bot before. [1] and its ilk contain post-2020 data. Ovinus (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for both of your efforts and answers.@BilledMammal@Ovinus. I have downloaded some files, but only one was ca. 2.5+ GB, took several minutes to download and was not very informative at first sight. The next were over 5GB and 2 GB and each would have taken several minutes to download... even if it would give some info that's not practical. Userviews takes a few seconds for most editors and you have it. The ideal would be a tool that provides us with a watchlist, to which one can add the articles. From a watchlist we can add and remove articles. For the notifications an article creator gets, a tool would sure be helpful in maintaining the article, as any article creator at some day in the future will stop to edit wikipedia and then someone else should be able to get the notifications. As to my knowledge, article creators get notifications on links to and from other articles and are listed as article creators in this list. The ones with a share of over 20% contribution will probably be the editors which are interested in maintaining the article.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- It'll be tricky, but a fun exercise, for the authorship %. If you mean simply by number of diffs, that'll be straightforward, as I think there's a list of diffs. If not, I can parse the full history dump, which, although in the terabytes unzipped, can be done as a stream. Much harder is determining authorship percentage of the actual text, since it would definitely require parsing the full dump and performing a rather expensive text diff algorithm on each and tracking what text is authored by whom. Intermediate deleted revisions would induce an apoplexy. But it'd also be useful for CCI, which is an alluring cause. Ovinus (talk) 15:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Dear Ovinus, whatever you'll accomplish will do and be a step forward. How about an optional (like a script to be installed?) additional button which for example could be a yellow star beside the blue one (or an icon in a drop down menu of a tool bar), and by clicking on that icon, one would receive the notifications and userviews of the article creator.
- If they click again, they wouldn't receive anything anymore. With that, percentages wouldn't matter, it'd be optional and voluntary to request and receive the information. Pageviews would likely be interesting for DYK or the Mainpage as there the coordinators could perform an overview over all the page views of the days articles on the Main Page.
- Notifications would be useful in cooperating in maintaining articles. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- And the next reply will be in another venue, as Billed Mammal will likely get notified for every edit we do on their talk page. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- It'll be tricky, but a fun exercise, for the authorship %. If you mean simply by number of diffs, that'll be straightforward, as I think there's a list of diffs. If not, I can parse the full history dump, which, although in the terabytes unzipped, can be done as a stream. Much harder is determining authorship percentage of the actual text, since it would definitely require parsing the full dump and performing a rather expensive text diff algorithm on each and tracking what text is authored by whom. Intermediate deleted revisions would induce an apoplexy. But it'd also be useful for CCI, which is an alluring cause. Ovinus (talk) 15:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
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Could you not nominate a bunch of NFL players for deletion right now?
At least wait for the others to complete - its becoming too much work for me. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Half Barnstar | |
Givin' some WikiLove so that it's clear that even though we are on opposing sides in that ITN discussion, I respect the perspective you bring! Curbon7 (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC) |
- @Curbon7: Thank you, it is nice to hear that; I appreciate your perspective as well. BilledMammal (talk) 05:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
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On the Lugnuts stubs
Sorry I edited a page in your user space. I thought it was some discussion. Good idea, thanks for the ping, and yes, I am also on it a bit. Do by chance have access to the main article creators in the last 1 or 2 months? I'd like to see if these discussions at scale actually have an effect on the quality of mass creation.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
- No need to apologize; I do, take a look at Quarry:query/68705 and Quarry:query/71788. They are currently running, but they should be done around ten minutes after I post this message. I reused an older query for these; I have since worked out a solution to include articles created from redirects, and if you want that data included I can do that. BilledMammal (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Re this, there has been consensus to accept the new heading format. Silikonz💬 04:51, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies, I didn't notice that discussion - it didn't fix the issue with the RM tool anyway. BilledMammal (talk) 05:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
RMTR requests
Sorry if I spam-pinged you doing the moves, but I moved them without any issues and I fixed all but one of the initial double redirects. I'll leave the rest of the cleanup to you as closer, but feel free to ping me if you want another set of eyes. Sennecaster (Chat) 06:15, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 09:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Avoiding deletable Stubs/Publishing Threshold
Maybe raising the minimum requirement for publishing an article would be good for tackling the stub discussions. Still everybody can edit, and everybody can publish into main space. But an article needs to have a certain amount of content in order to be "publishable". Like a certain amount of phrases, like 10? If something is notable, I believe there could easily be found ten phrases on it. Or have a certain amount of words... Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:38, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, but I'm not certain there would be consensus to add such a requirement - on consensus to enforce it, if it was added. I think smaller steps, such as requiring all articles to have at least one source plausibly containing WP:SIGCOV to remain in mainspace, would be how to start. BilledMammal (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Page mover granted
Hello, BilledMammal. Your account has been granted the "extendedmover" user right, either following a request for it or demonstrating familiarity with working with article names and moving pages. You are now able to rename pages without leaving behind a redirect, move subpages when moving the parent page(s), and move category pages.
Please take a moment to review Wikipedia:Page mover for more information on this user right, especially the criteria for moving pages without leaving a redirect. Please remember to follow post-move cleanup procedures and make link corrections where necessary, including broken double-redirects when suppressredirect
is used. This can be done using Special:WhatLinksHere. It is also very important that no one else be allowed to access your account, so you should consider taking a few moments to secure your password. As with all user rights, be aware that if abused, or used in controversial ways without consensus, your page mover status can be revoked.
Useful links:
- Wikipedia:Requested moves
- Category:Requested moves, for article renaming requests awaiting action.
If you do not want the page mover right anymore, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Thank you, and happy editing! Salvio giuliano 12:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Looking forward to your timely assistance at the RMT. Thanks, ─ The Aafī (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you Salvio, and thank you TheAafi for endorsing my request. BilledMammal (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I enjoy doing a number of things on several projects. From taking care of Urdu Wikipedia's Main Page's In The News section, and translation administration on several multilingual projects, and clearing backlog at the RMT here. These three tasks put together with my volunteering on the VRT make my days good. I always feel glad when competent and helpful editors come around to help and that's what made me endorse your request. ─ The Aafī (talk) 12:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Forgive the roll-back
Was out of line, self-reverted, can discuss later but not right now Red Slash 23:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Kusasi people
I am a bit perplexed how on earth you perceived a consensus to move the page "Kusasi people" to Kusaal people. I think you may have had your Kusasi and Kusaal confused. Only two people replied - myself, who strenuously objected to it, brought evidence from plenty of RSs for it and at no point conceded that Kusaal was anything but a language, that the name for the people is and must be Kusasi. I never, ever conceded to any move. The only other replier was Kwami, who, although voting for the Kusaal move, could not find RSs for it and admitted "Kusasi people" was more common. The consensus would be to NOT move the page. Walrasiad (talk) 23:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- My reading of the discussion was that both of you presented RS', but that the proposal was supported by the various naming convention policies despite not being the WP:COMMONNAME. However, reviewing the sources I see that the working link is not a reliable source, and the PDF links are not working for me either, meaning that the issue isn't on your end.
- Based on that, I've overturned to no consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 04:52, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how either of you could fail to access the sources. They're standard SIL publications. If you can read a PDF, you should be able to access them. I just tried the minimalist Falkon browser, and it can access them too, so the problem must indeed be on your end, some browser or preference fault that the two of you share. — kwami (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I tried again, and I don't know why I couldn't access them last time; I am able to access them now. I'm going to revert my clone and allow someone else to close this. BilledMammal (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
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Altered speedy deletion rationale: Anton Solovyov
Hello BilledMammal. I am just letting you know that I deleted Anton Solovyov, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, under a different criterion from the one you provided, which didn't fit the page in question. Thank you. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, I wasn't sure what criteria best applied - I missed G14. BilledMammal (talk) 14:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I thought the script would leave a more descriptive message. You tagged under WP:A3 which is for articles with no content, but a disambiguation page with entries has content even if the entries link to deleted pages or no page at all. At first I declined your tag, then went back and deleted under WP:G14 (which is for unneeded disambiguation pages specifically) instead. Thanks. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
List removals
BilledMammal, the two articles you restored here should not have been restored. As Cbl62 said, "I supported this extraordinary proposal only on specific conditions, including the absence of any SIGCOV. If SIGCOV have even arguably been added to some small portion of the articles, those articles should be stricken from the list." - and then from casualdejekyll: "Ok, no, this proposal is about stubs with zero sigcov references. Not stubs with one reference. Zero. Considering you're the most vocal advocate of the proposal, I was hoping you would already know that, @BilledMammal." Both of those articles had coverage that is arguably SIGCOV and should not be on that list. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- This proposal is about articles that met a given criteria when the RfC was opened. The criteria for restoring these articles is different from this criteria, though in deference to Cbl's position I don't object to some removing articles where a single source has been added, so long as that single source is extensive. BilledMammal (talk) 16:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Its rather ridiculous to say that this does not cover the topic "directly and in detail, so that no original research is need to extract the content," and its quite arguable that this source also constitutes SIGCOV. Your support voters have made it clear they do not want articles with coverage that could even arguably be considered to be SIGCOV on that list ("Ok, no, this proposal is about stubs with zero sigcov references. Not stubs with one reference. Zero. Considering you're the most vocal advocate of the proposal, I was hoping you would already know that, @BilledMammal —casualdejekyll"; "This is troubling. I supported this extraordinary proposal only on specific conditions, including the absence of any SIGCOV. If SIGCOV have even arguably been added to some small portion of the articles, those articles should be stricken from the list. Otherwise, the grounds underlying the "support" votes (including mine) have changed. —Cbl62"; "If SIGCOV is met, those should be excluded ... and evaluated on their own merits. —Rlendog") BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that it doesn't. I'm saying that one source isn't enough to demonstrate WP:GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: You don't have my permission to edit my comments, which per WP:TPO is required. Please stop reverting, and if you think my proposal is wrong you may argue against it - you may not try to correct it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Its rather ridiculous to say that this does not cover the topic "directly and in detail, so that no original research is need to extract the content," and its quite arguable that this source also constitutes SIGCOV. Your support voters have made it clear they do not want articles with coverage that could even arguably be considered to be SIGCOV on that list ("Ok, no, this proposal is about stubs with zero sigcov references. Not stubs with one reference. Zero. Considering you're the most vocal advocate of the proposal, I was hoping you would already know that, @BilledMammal —casualdejekyll"; "This is troubling. I supported this extraordinary proposal only on specific conditions, including the absence of any SIGCOV. If SIGCOV have even arguably been added to some small portion of the articles, those articles should be stricken from the list. Otherwise, the grounds underlying the "support" votes (including mine) have changed. —Cbl62"; "If SIGCOV is met, those should be excluded ... and evaluated on their own merits. —Rlendog") BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
Concern
Your bag of geo moves is ill considered. I would suggest you withdraw the RM and submit them separately. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- I opposed both moves, but I like the underlying idea: a report of dab pages containing a single link. Seems like a good way to catch all sorts of oddities, but yeah, in at least half of cases, the solution is to move the article. These two RMs were juts the top of the iceberg, right? If it's a big list, then you can post it at WT:WPDAB: people there might be interested in helping with the manual checks. Also a ping to Shhhnotsoloud, who if I recall correctly used to track similar deficient dabs. – Uanfala (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Will do. There are others User:Uanfala, I wasn’t sure how to deal with them but posting them there is a good idea. BilledMammal (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Local culture
I read your RFC about the early Olympic athletes. I think one of the themes in the opposition to this kind of proposal is that they run counter to the m:Vision. The proponents say, "Look, we currently have 🟥🟨🟦🟧🟩🟫 worth of knowledge on the wiki, and we know we're missing knowledge about 🟪⬜️ and probably ⬛️, too, but that 🟧 bit is IMO substandard because it's [fill in the blank: too short, doesn't have enough refs, isn't an important subject, is out of date, doesn't get read, has the wrong POV, etc.], so how about instead of having the sum of all knowledge, we instead have a little bit less than we could right now?
I think that if we established some common ground about whether we actually prefer the sum of all human knowledge (even if that means some sub-standard and incomplete articles) vs if we actually prefer decent-looking articles (even if that means changing "the sum of all human knowledge" to "the fraction of human knowledge that is presented in a way that meets our quality standards"), then we'd be able to make more progress on this. Either the community would set a minimum standard, and articles could be judged against them (we did this once, for BLPs), or the editors who want to get rid of substandard articles would know that wasn't a realistic outcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t think that your interpretation of the vision matches the consensus interpretation on enwiki, and it shouldn’t - it would mean abolishing, for example, the requirement to use reliable sources. BilledMammal (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Technically, there isn't a requirement to "use" reliable sources; there is only a requirement that it must be possible for someone to find a reliable source that says the same thing. But the way we have traditionally understood this is that if it's not possible to verify that information in a reliable source, then it's not part of "the sum of all human knowledge" anyway. (Unverifiable information might be one of the addends, but it's not part of the sum of knowledge.
;-)
) - But leaving that aside, it sounds like you would prefer that verifiable (even cited) information not be present in Wikipedia unless that presentation meets a certain standard (e.g., a long enough article). Where undisputed, cited, verifiable statements such as "Alice Athlete competed in the 1904 Olympics for Ruritania[1][2]" are concerned, it sounds like if you were given a choice between a pathetic little stub, and not having this information in the mainspace at all (i.e., "write a beautiful C-class article" is not an available option), you would choose not having this information in the mainspace at all as the lesser of two evils. Have I correctly understood you view? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is a requirement to provide reliable sources for information; additions of unsourced content will typically be reverted.
- It was also only one example of a policy that would need to be abolished to support your interpretation and others also exist; WP:DUE, WP:GNG, WP:NOTDATABASE, etc.
- I note that these examples already tell us that verifiability, on its own, is insufficient for inclusion as in your example of Alice Althlete; if you want to change this I suggest proposing changes to WP:N and probably to WP:NOT. Personally, I agree that verifiability alone is insufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's poor practice to not cite any sources at all in an article, but WP:N isn't a policy, and nobody would delete User:WhatamIdoing/Christmas candy or any other obviously notable subject merely because sources hadn't been provided yet. If "providing" sources were an absolute requirement, then {{unref}} wouldn't be on one out of every 40 articles.
- But as you notice above, I gave my example article not merely one, but two inline citations, so the desire for sources is irrelevant. My question remains unanswered: Would you prefer Wikipedia to not have any article about "Alice Athlete" at all, if the article does not presently meet or exceed your standards for development? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- You misunderstand; the issue with Alice Athlete isn’t that it is unsourced, it’s that it is (presumably) fails WP:GNG - and to answer your question, I don’t want Wikipedia to have any articles that fail GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 06:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why do you assume that an article about an Olympic athlete with two existing inline citations fails GNG? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- When it's written like that? I can also tell you what the two inline citations are - Olympedia and sportsreference. It's possible that sources exist elsewhere that would allow it to demonstrate GNG, but I think that is unlikely. BilledMammal (talk) 23:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why do you assume that an article about an Olympic athlete with two existing inline citations fails GNG? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- You misunderstand; the issue with Alice Athlete isn’t that it is unsourced, it’s that it is (presumably) fails WP:GNG - and to answer your question, I don’t want Wikipedia to have any articles that fail GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 06:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Concur with BilledMammal. Their aim at the RfC is good and there are heaps of wikipedia rules such as WP:NOTDATABASE, WP:NOTWHOSWHO
- WP:MASSCREATION, WP:MEATBOT, WP:BOTUSE
- (all part of policies) to cite a few that would have prevented the masscreation of the bio stubs if they were only enforced.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Technically, there isn't a requirement to "use" reliable sources; there is only a requirement that it must be possible for someone to find a reliable source that says the same thing. But the way we have traditionally understood this is that if it's not possible to verify that information in a reliable source, then it's not part of "the sum of all human knowledge" anyway. (Unverifiable information might be one of the addends, but it's not part of the sum of knowledge.
Can you explain why you closed this discussion instead of relisting? The discussion was still ongoing and producing productive conversation in terms of deciding the best alternative name for the title, and your close seems extremely premature. Turnagra (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Turnagra: For that discussion to be able to come to a consensus the move request would have needed to be altered to propose the move of Orange-fronted parakeet. In a move request with a clear proposed initial title I would have done that, but as this move request lacked that I would also have needed to alter your proposed move to have an explicit target of Orange-fronted parakeet (New Zealand); given that this would have implied you supported that title I considered that inappropriate under WP:TPO.
- Instead, I considered the best option was to close that move request and provide space for a new one, with clearly defined moves, to be opened. I still encourage you to do that, but if you prefer that I undo my close and relist I will do so. BilledMammal (talk) 18:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd prefer you undoing the close - the reason I'd started a move request was entirely because I wasn't clear on what the best title would be for it and wanted to get other editors' views - almost as a pseudo RfC. While we're definitely moving towards a title and that may involve altering the move request to include a move of Eupsittula canicularis, I don't think we're quite at the point yet and I'd appreciate getting further input from other editors. Turnagra (talk) 18:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Done. BilledMammal (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd prefer you undoing the close - the reason I'd started a move request was entirely because I wasn't clear on what the best title would be for it and wanted to get other editors' views - almost as a pseudo RfC. While we're definitely moving towards a title and that may involve altering the move request to include a move of Eupsittula canicularis, I don't think we're quite at the point yet and I'd appreciate getting further input from other editors. Turnagra (talk) 18:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Iraqi conflict
Hi, in your relisting statement at Talk:Iraqi conflict (2003–present), you said it "would require that article to be notified if editors want to explore that possibility further", but "that article" is simply a redirect to the same page in question; there is only one single page about an "Iraqi conflict". I don't know if that changes anything in the correctness of your decision to relist. Avilich (talk) 19:31, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for letting me know; I have struck that part of my relisting comment. However, it doesn't change the decision to relist; that proposal has still received insufficient discussion to determine whether there is a consensus for it. BilledMammal (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Closed RM for Russkaya mysl
Hi. At Talk:Russkaya mysl#Requested move 10 March 2023 would you write a closing summary that explains which guidelines determined the decision and why it was “not moved” rather than “no consensus”? Thanks. —Michael Z. 22:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)