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"capped"
I have come across the term "capped" in articles on footballers. When used as a verb in the United States, the term has the slang meaning of being shot. For example, Urban Dictionary offers the following example: "I capped that bitch's ass." See here. When using the term in the sense of appearing in an international match, it would be best to use a wikilink to Cap (sports). Cbl62 (talk) 13:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- True, but that is not the most common use of the term. Felixsv7 (talk) 14:03, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with Felix - see cap (sports). GiantSnowman 15:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Slang words are always being created and changed. "Cap" is also now a slang word meaning "lie". Like "That's a cap" means "That's a lie". But words also have multiple meanings. Like "present" can mean a gift, the current time, or to 'present a presentation'. Wikilinking would help, but context usually suffices. Someone looking at a football player's page likely would know that cap means an appearance in football context. RedPatch (talk) 15:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Someone familiar with association football would likely now, but in the USA I had no idea what it meant. Wikipedia is intended for a general audience, and wikilinking helps people in a more general audience who aren't familiar with English sports jargon. Cbl62 (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Capped in football is a common term, whereas cap = shot is not in most of the world. This is a worldwide encyclopedia, which means we shouldn't be doing something just to suit one section of the world, in this case the US. Linking it seems to violate MOS:OVERLINK, and why would anyone think that all football/soccer players are shooting each other? Urban Dictionary is a trash site, we shouldn't be defining how to use an encyclopedia based on that. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it violates OVERLINK, but nobody is reading an article that says 'John Smith was caped 15 times for the United States between 1975 and 1982' and thinking 'oh gosh that guy must spend a lot of time in hospital'. GiantSnowman 16:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- The real issue is whether a non-UK-sports-fan would read that and understand that "capped 15 times" is English sports jargon for playing in 15 international games. Very few would. A wikilink to Cap (sports) very easily solves the jargon issue and makes the article more accessible to a non-specialist reader. Cbl62 (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Moreso I'd say the issue is where is the line of what can be expected to be understood by a general reader from context, versus what is "Insider specialized terminology"? Obviously you're not going to link each and every single sports related word, let alone every soccer/football one, but only those likely to be misunderstood. Which ties directly to the first bullet point of MOS:OVERLINK.
- So, if you are making your original argument based on "in contradistinction to the slang meaning of 'capped' for 'shot'", then your argument easily fails. But if you are asking the broader question of: "On which side of that line does the specific case of 'Cap/Capped' fall?", then I'm more on the fence since I would have to question my own potential bias as a long term & semi-knowledgeable fan and follower of the sport. Gecko G (talk) 19:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The real issue is whether a non-UK-sports-fan would read that and understand that "capped 15 times" is English sports jargon for playing in 15 international games. Very few would. A wikilink to Cap (sports) very easily solves the jargon issue and makes the article more accessible to a non-specialist reader. Cbl62 (talk) 17:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it violates OVERLINK, but nobody is reading an article that says 'John Smith was caped 15 times for the United States between 1975 and 1982' and thinking 'oh gosh that guy must spend a lot of time in hospital'. GiantSnowman 16:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Capped in football is a common term, whereas cap = shot is not in most of the world. This is a worldwide encyclopedia, which means we shouldn't be doing something just to suit one section of the world, in this case the US. Linking it seems to violate MOS:OVERLINK, and why would anyone think that all football/soccer players are shooting each other? Urban Dictionary is a trash site, we shouldn't be defining how to use an encyclopedia based on that. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Someone familiar with association football would likely now, but in the USA I had no idea what it meant. Wikipedia is intended for a general audience, and wikilinking helps people in a more general audience who aren't familiar with English sports jargon. Cbl62 (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Slang words are always being created and changed. "Cap" is also now a slang word meaning "lie". Like "That's a cap" means "That's a lie". But words also have multiple meanings. Like "present" can mean a gift, the current time, or to 'present a presentation'. Wikilinking would help, but context usually suffices. Someone looking at a football player's page likely would know that cap means an appearance in football context. RedPatch (talk) 15:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with Felix - see cap (sports). GiantSnowman 15:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- As others are saying, I doubt anyone would mistake it for the slang, but a non-sports fan might only think of the head covering, so I'm not opposed to a link, but I also wouldn't expect it to be there for example to meet GA status or anything of the sort. Gecko G (talk) 21:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm all for linking "cap" and "capped". I think it's mostly British readers who will know that the terms refer to making international appearances, while many other readers will not know the meaning. And even for those that do know the meaning, the etymology is interesting. Robby.is.on (talk) 21:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I should mention that in American sports, "cap" is understood to mean the soccer term, though we don't really use "capped" as often. It's a non-issue, as a reader should understand from context that it does not mean the other "capped". SounderBruce 07:50, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
user:Skyerise
Skyerise (talk · contribs) is going through articles of players born in country X but who played for country Y, and removing the Y-related categories from articles. I have reverted and warned but they are still doing it. Can somebody else please have a word? GiantSnowman 15:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Per WP:CONTEXTBIO, we should have a single nationality at in the lead sentence. Unless the article suitably documents a change of citizenship supported by a reliable source, this should be the players birth nationality. There are two types of Y-related categories: in some, Y is a nationality, in others it is nation or team related. Unless there are supporting sources for immigration, the player is playing as an expatriate. No one should be in a nationality category unless their citizenship in that country is verifiable. We have expatriate categories for just that reason - to use when a change of citizenship is unverifiable. Skyerise (talk) 16:02, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- As you have been told - CONTEXTBIO is a guideline only, the phrasing says "usually" (not 'always') and we have developed a different guideline. In any event a player cannot play for a nation without being a citizen, see FIFA eligibility rules. GiantSnowman 16:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Then the dual citizenship variant of WP:CONTEXTBIO (example: Arnold Schwarzenegger) should be used to avoid confusion. Skyerise (talk) 16:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think that reads well, and we have a well established, tested, and widely used guideline for footballers. GiantSnowman 16:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- It also doesn't deal with representative nationality vs passport and so on, which is the issue we have in footballing articles. Koncorde (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Whilst I sympathize, sportsmen(and women) do have a different case in this regard as someone's citizenship or nationality doesn't necessarily mean they represent that country in the sport they play. It is a rather complex matter, because when you talk about a sportsman you are talking about what national team they would play for, rather than the potential place of birth, where they live or citizenship. To make things a bit more confusing, some players can represent more than one national team during the course of their career. I think how we handle it now is the best of many bad ways. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- This is where it gets complex. Such as when a player stops playing and becomes, for example, a pundit or social activist. A fine example of the complexity of this is someone like John Barnes. Nominally "English" by WP:FOOTBALL standards, but British by commentator / pundit / media / author, but Jamaican by literalist interpretations of birth, but British citizen by Commonwealth passport and so on and so forth. I note at the moment "English" has been removed from Barnes article without actually dealing with it at all. Koncorde (talk) 16:06, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Whilst I sympathize, sportsmen(and women) do have a different case in this regard as someone's citizenship or nationality doesn't necessarily mean they represent that country in the sport they play. It is a rather complex matter, because when you talk about a sportsman you are talking about what national team they would play for, rather than the potential place of birth, where they live or citizenship. To make things a bit more confusing, some players can represent more than one national team during the course of their career. I think how we handle it now is the best of many bad ways. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- It also doesn't deal with representative nationality vs passport and so on, which is the issue we have in footballing articles. Koncorde (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think that reads well, and we have a well established, tested, and widely used guideline for footballers. GiantSnowman 16:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Then the dual citizenship variant of WP:CONTEXTBIO (example: Arnold Schwarzenegger) should be used to avoid confusion. Skyerise (talk) 16:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
Skyerise is back and removing DOBs from numerous footballer articles; can somebody else please step in and try and get through to them? @Koncorde and Lee Vilenski:? GiantSnowman 19:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Spurs season articles
Draft:2023–24 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season needs deleting, 2023–24 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season needs shifting to draft space, I don't know why all these are created so early. Govvy (talk) 17:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- No reason to delete the draft - you'd be better off telling Mwiqdoh to move to draftspace, or if that doesn't happen, AfD. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- If it's too soon it can stay as a redirect and then the redirect can be removed when the time is ready. No need to delete. Mwiqdoh (talk) 17:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- I have made the redirect in that case. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:56, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- And I have deleted all the (hidden) article content that replicates what is in draft space, which is where it belongs. Spike 'em (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Mwiqdoh - Special:Diff/1144253425 is not an acceptable way to deal with drafts. Draft space is for drafts. Please do not edit it into mainspace like this. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Then you should've deleted the whole text and not just the lede. I was just adding the lede back because I thought you mistakenly removed it. Mwiqdoh (talk) 21:12, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- To be fair to Mwiqdoh, you did leave the redirect with a bunch of article text to start off with. I suspect you hit the wrong edit link and just deleted the lead section rather than the whole article. Spike 'em (talk) 21:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Aye, my mistake. Mobile editor decided I wanted to only delete the lede. Apologies. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 22:40, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Mwiqdoh - Special:Diff/1144253425 is not an acceptable way to deal with drafts. Draft space is for drafts. Please do not edit it into mainspace like this. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- And I have deleted all the (hidden) article content that replicates what is in draft space, which is where it belongs. Spike 'em (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- I have made the redirect in that case. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:56, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Presentation order of the teams in league season results grid
Regarding Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/League season#Results, I have two questions concerning the presentation order of the teams in the results grid.
- for seasons that are completed, should the teams be presented (a) in the order of their final league table position, or (b) in alphabetic order?
- If the answer to question (1) is (a), then during an ongoing season, should the teams also be presented in the order of their current league table position, or in alphabetic order?
If these questions have already been answered, please indicate previous discussion, and ideally update the League season#Results section. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Alphabetical order makes the most sense. – PeeJay 18:45, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agree. Kante4 (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- When it is a stand-alone table, alphabetically makes the most sense, as it is easier to look up teams. When it is appended to a standings table and called from within it, the ordering should match the rows of the standings table. CRwikiCA talk 19:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, I agree with that. – PeeJay 00:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- @CRwikiCA:
When it is appended to a standings table and called from within it
- please give an example so that I can understand this. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:27, 14 March 2023 (UTC)- CRwikiCA is refering to tables such as at 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification – UEFA Group C#Standings which can't really be done any other way. Agree with alphabetical order for cases outwith these as well. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Redrose64,Stevie fae Scotland, yes indeed. CRwikiCA talk 13:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- CRwikiCA is refering to tables such as at 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification – UEFA Group C#Standings which can't really be done any other way. Agree with alphabetical order for cases outwith these as well. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- When it is a stand-alone table, alphabetically makes the most sense, as it is easier to look up teams. When it is appended to a standings table and called from within it, the ordering should match the rows of the standings table. CRwikiCA talk 19:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agree. Kante4 (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
EFL Cup Honours
Mattythewhite removed EFL Cup accomplishments from Wikipedia articles of Wayne Rooney (2009), Gerard Piqué (2006) and Yaya Touré (2018). His main reasoning is that they were not called up for the finals and did not get medals during trophy celebrations. Despite the fact that they gave their contributions in previous matches as their "career statistics" section of the articles indicate that. I think that EFL Cup triumphs should be included in their honours as they were active parts of their teams during given time periods with at least one appearances. I hope you can give us a solution for that argument. NextEditor123 (talk) 21:50, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- If reliable sources say a player won the honour, then so should we. GiantSnowman 22:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- you dont even need to be at the club any more, Jermaine Defoe got a medal for tottenham's league cup win in 2008 source despite leaving for portsmouth (jan 2008) before the final (feb 2008) due to playing in the earlier rounds. in regards to Wayne Rooney, man united state he won four league cups here which uh...shows they gave him a medal, yes? cuz wikipedia is now only crediting him for 3 but united say he won 4. for Yaya Toure, man city say he won three league cups here so theyre also saying they gave him a medal but wikipedia list him with only 2 now. the clubs themselves saying rooney won 4 and toure won 3 is a direct statement they gave them medals surely? in addition, The EFL rule 20.2 on the awarding of medals states: "In addition to the Cup, the Management Committee shall present thirty souvenirs to the winning Club in the Final Tie; and thirty souvenirs to the losing Club in the Final Tie. Additional souvenirs may be presented with the consent of the Management Committee but shall be at the cost of the requesting Club." did those teams use more than 30 players that season? 1 will obvioulsy be used for the manager, maybe another for the assistant. thats at least 28 for the players. even if they go above that the team can literally just buy more medals.Muur (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Fine. But what about Gerard Piqué in 2006? NextEditor123 (talk) 11:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- As per GS above : what do reliable sources say? Have you tried investigating this yet? Spike 'em (talk) 13:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- UEFA say Gerard Piqué won the english league cup in 2006 here. FIFA say he won it in 2006 here. sportskeeda say he won the league cup here. uefa and fifa saying it seem pretty definitive? in fact, the same source his wikipedia page is using to say he won the champions league in 2008 says he won the league cup in 2006 so its odd to use it to say he won the ucl but not the league cup when it lists both in his career trophy list.Muur (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Getting a medal on the field sounds like WP:OR to me. Using this as a criterion would mean that someone that is hospitalized during the game, even after scoring the winning goal, should never be listed as a trophy winner, which would obviously be nonsensical. CRwikiCA talk 13:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Definitely OR, and also only applies to the era when we can easily check TV footage of players being handed medals...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Since when official websites of FIFA and UEFA are not reliable sources for that topics? It is not logical to dismiss the players' previous participations as teams in League Cup Finals used to call up less players for the match than now. By that logic, only players who were called up for the final can be included which is not right. NextEditor123 (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Definitely OR, and also only applies to the era when we can easily check TV footage of players being handed medals...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Getting a medal on the field sounds like WP:OR to me. Using this as a criterion would mean that someone that is hospitalized during the game, even after scoring the winning goal, should never be listed as a trophy winner, which would obviously be nonsensical. CRwikiCA talk 13:50, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- UEFA say Gerard Piqué won the english league cup in 2006 here. FIFA say he won it in 2006 here. sportskeeda say he won the league cup here. uefa and fifa saying it seem pretty definitive? in fact, the same source his wikipedia page is using to say he won the champions league in 2008 says he won the league cup in 2006 so its odd to use it to say he won the ucl but not the league cup when it lists both in his career trophy list.Muur (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- As per GS above : what do reliable sources say? Have you tried investigating this yet? Spike 'em (talk) 13:01, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Fine. But what about Gerard Piqué in 2006? NextEditor123 (talk) 11:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- you dont even need to be at the club any more, Jermaine Defoe got a medal for tottenham's league cup win in 2008 source despite leaving for portsmouth (jan 2008) before the final (feb 2008) due to playing in the earlier rounds. in regards to Wayne Rooney, man united state he won four league cups here which uh...shows they gave him a medal, yes? cuz wikipedia is now only crediting him for 3 but united say he won 4. for Yaya Toure, man city say he won three league cups here so theyre also saying they gave him a medal but wikipedia list him with only 2 now. the clubs themselves saying rooney won 4 and toure won 3 is a direct statement they gave them medals surely? in addition, The EFL rule 20.2 on the awarding of medals states: "In addition to the Cup, the Management Committee shall present thirty souvenirs to the winning Club in the Final Tie; and thirty souvenirs to the losing Club in the Final Tie. Additional souvenirs may be presented with the consent of the Management Committee but shall be at the cost of the requesting Club." did those teams use more than 30 players that season? 1 will obvioulsy be used for the manager, maybe another for the assistant. thats at least 28 for the players. even if they go above that the team can literally just buy more medals.Muur (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- 3 questions arising from my reading the above discussion- Is the medal specifically for the final or is it for the whole tournament? Isn't a player who plays in an early round in the cup, and then transfers to a different team, considered "cup-tied" and not able to play in later round of the cup for their new team that same season? Is there something different about the league cup tournament than compared to other [non-league] competitions (like say the national open cup/FA Cup)? Gecko G (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Gecko G: - the competition rules state "In addition to the Cup, the Management Committee shall present thirty souvenirs to the winning Club in the Final Tie". If the winning club wants to give one of those 30 medals to a player who played for them in earlier rounds of the competition but then left, they are perfectly within their rights to do so -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- ok, so it sounds like the medal is more connected to the final than the whole tournament@, and thus absence of a medal isn't saying the player didn't contribute to the overall winning tournament drive.
- @= 30 medals, by the time you give to all the players and benchers in the final, the coach, asst. coach, the physio, one or two members of the front office, etc., is unlikely to leave enough medals to award those who only played in earlier rounds. As long as transferred players are indeed "cup-tied" I would consider them to have contributed if they played an early round and then transferred out. It is a team sport after all. Gecko G (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Except three names I named earlier did not transfer out at the middle of seasons in which their team won EFL Cup. Therefore, I suppose that maybe they have a right to receive the medals and be recognized as active parts of winning teams with one appearance at least. NextEditor123 (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's not quite what I'm saying:
...have a right to receive the medals...
no, they'd have no automatic right to a medal if they didn't play in the final, but they may or may not still receive one regardless....and be recognized as active parts of winning teams with one appearance at least
Yes!- The distinction between the two (receiving recognition as contributing vs. receiving a medal) seems to be the crux of the issue as I am understanding it as presented in the discussion here. It is the former that is important here and though the later would imply the former, one does not need the later for the former alone.
- Gecko G (talk) 16:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Fine. But can we explain it to Mattythewhite? He has removed recent edits about missing EFL Cup honours of Wayne Rooney and Yaya Touré and has threatened to block me. And we need better sources than given ones in the talk section as they did not mention exact years of triumphs in EFL Cup. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:09, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- I just noticed that none of your mentions of that user here have been a proper user link, so said user may be completely unaware of this entire discussion. Therefore, I am formally Pinging @Mattythewhite: Care to weigh in on this discussion? (I will also go to their talk page and invite the user to come here). Gecko G (talk) 19:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for notifying me, @Gecko G:. I hadn't been aware of this discussion. If I were adding an honour for a player who wasn't involved in the final of a competition, I would expect to use sources that are a) explicit in saying that the player won the competition in a certain season/received a medal, b) be sufficiently independent, e.g. not a player's official website or their club's official website, and c) be an appropriate/reliable source for player honours. For example, Soccerway, while a great resource for appearances and goals, are known for listing honours for players just for being under contract at a club in a season, regardless of whether or not the player played any role in that competition. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Mattythewhite
Sorry that I didn't notice sooner.
- I'll leave the discussion about sourcing to the other parts of this discussion, but I would like to ask if you can clarify why you believe the medal is necessary for listing an honor if the medal is apparently specific to the final but said honor listing is not specific to the final (ie it's "EFL Cup" not "EFL Cup Final")? Or has there been a misunderstanding as to your position in this matter since the discussion has gone on for 3 days without you?
- Gecko G (talk) 21:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- We still didn't get answers on that questions. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think a source mentioning a medal is necessarily the only verification needed to add an honour, but it feels like the most tangible way to demonstrate that a player won a competition. And just to note that I didn't receive a ping that time, @Gecko G:. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- OK. (Continuing to set aside the sourcing quality issues which are being discussed elsewhere in this section), - @NextEditor123: Does that satisfactorily put-to-bed the component of "final medals" for you (and that component only)?
- aside- I wasn't trying to ping at that point (I don't think a ping is needed for a direct reply), rather I was attempting something else (but it didn't work - too off-topic to get into though). Gecko G (talk) 21:49, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think a source mentioning a medal is necessarily the only verification needed to add an honour, but it feels like the most tangible way to demonstrate that a player won a competition. And just to note that I didn't receive a ping that time, @Gecko G:. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- We still didn't get answers on that questions. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Mattythewhite
- Thanks for notifying me, @Gecko G:. I hadn't been aware of this discussion. If I were adding an honour for a player who wasn't involved in the final of a competition, I would expect to use sources that are a) explicit in saying that the player won the competition in a certain season/received a medal, b) be sufficiently independent, e.g. not a player's official website or their club's official website, and c) be an appropriate/reliable source for player honours. For example, Soccerway, while a great resource for appearances and goals, are known for listing honours for players just for being under contract at a club in a season, regardless of whether or not the player played any role in that competition. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- I just noticed that none of your mentions of that user here have been a proper user link, so said user may be completely unaware of this entire discussion. Therefore, I am formally Pinging @Mattythewhite: Care to weigh in on this discussion? (I will also go to their talk page and invite the user to come here). Gecko G (talk) 19:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Fine. But can we explain it to Mattythewhite? He has removed recent edits about missing EFL Cup honours of Wayne Rooney and Yaya Touré and has threatened to block me. And we need better sources than given ones in the talk section as they did not mention exact years of triumphs in EFL Cup. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:09, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Except three names I named earlier did not transfer out at the middle of seasons in which their team won EFL Cup. Therefore, I suppose that maybe they have a right to receive the medals and be recognized as active parts of winning teams with one appearance at least. NextEditor123 (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Gecko G: - the competition rules state "In addition to the Cup, the Management Committee shall present thirty souvenirs to the winning Club in the Final Tie". If the winning club wants to give one of those 30 medals to a player who played for them in earlier rounds of the competition but then left, they are perfectly within their rights to do so -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:48, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Mattythewhite is doing it again. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:27, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Pique played in Round 3 and 4 (i.e. well before the final) and in none of the remaining games. He wasn't even in the matchday squad for the last 3 ties. We would need a reliable source that says he received a medal. And that's not FIFA and UEFA, which are not reliable sources because they assume the entire squad for that season "won", and we know that isn't the case - Man United would have had a squad of around 40 that season. Black Kite (talk) 19:37, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- somehow, a club source isnt notable enough despite the fact theyre the ones who give them the medals. da fak.Muur (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's got nothing to do with how notable it is. Clubs are considered primary sources and it is better to use secondary sources (ie- a source independent of the subject such as newspapers or broadcasters) where available. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Is there even a primary source for Pique? Sorry if I missed it above. Black Kite (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- primary source is better than nothing and pretending there isnt a source.Muur (talk) 00:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- That was my question. Is there even a primary source (i.e. Manchester United or the EFL?). We can't use FIFA and UEFA as even though they're technically secondary sources, they work off third-party squad data. If Pique received a medal there should surely be something usable that exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I honestly think you're going to struggle to find secondary sources to confirm most of these "player didn't play in the final but may have received a medal" scenarios. I haven't got time to check YouTube to see if there's video footage from 2006 of Pique going up as part of the presentation party and getting a medal even though he wasn't even a sub. If he didn't, but the club decided to give him a medal anyway (as they are entitled to do) this almost certainly happened "behind closed doors" and I doubt it was publicised or written about in the press..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which sources can be useful for that subject? NextEditor123 (talk) 14:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it depends. Sometimes there aren't any, sometimes there are. I remember one of these a few years ago where a newspaper had reported on a rather weird situation where a player had received a cup medal despite playing once as a substitute (can't remember who it was now). But that's the sort of thing you'd need ... otherwise it's WP:OR. Black Kite (talk) 14:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which sources can be useful for that subject? NextEditor123 (talk) 14:45, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I honestly think you're going to struggle to find secondary sources to confirm most of these "player didn't play in the final but may have received a medal" scenarios. I haven't got time to check YouTube to see if there's video footage from 2006 of Pique going up as part of the presentation party and getting a medal even though he wasn't even a sub. If he didn't, but the club decided to give him a medal anyway (as they are entitled to do) this almost certainly happened "behind closed doors" and I doubt it was publicised or written about in the press..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- That was my question. Is there even a primary source (i.e. Manchester United or the EFL?). We can't use FIFA and UEFA as even though they're technically secondary sources, they work off third-party squad data. If Pique received a medal there should surely be something usable that exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- primary source is better than nothing and pretending there isnt a source.Muur (talk) 00:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just commenting on the above, I know with Wikipedia we prefer secondary sources for notability reasons, but there are certain instances where a primary source would be better and a team themselves indicating who won to me is one of those. To me, we have to weigh common sense at times. For example, lets say a team listed a player's kit number as 23 and sold jerseys and the player wore it in games, but for some reason the secondary sources listed it as 32. Would it make sense to write 32 as the kit number because a secondary source said it? Obviously not. RedPatch (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how it concerns this talk subject. Can you give us exact examples of that? Did it occur to three persons who were mentioned there? NextEditor123 (talk) 22:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
Is the 2024 edition going to take place? This edit was done by S.A. Julio, implying that the 2024 edition won't take place. If the 2024 edition won't take place, then something should be done about the 2024 FIFA Club World Cup article. Mwiqdoh (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The FIFA source [1] says that the
current version of the FIFA Club World Cup will be discontinued after the 2023 edition
, and the new 332-team cup will start in 2025. That seems to confirm that there isn't a 2024 tournament. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)- Hmm, I'm not sure it's so cut and dry as that. https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/saudi-arabia-to-host-club-world-cup-december-2023 states the 2023 event will be the penultimate version with seven teams, and that was written last month. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Both are from the same source (both FIFA) so I would place more confidence in the more recent one as being up-to-date (I don't actually see a date on Lee's link but he says it was written last month, meanwhile Joseph's link is dated as of today {March 14}).
- There's also this mention of agreement on the idea of a new, different, annual competition that would be similar to the current CWC format but with the UEFA team straight through to the final, so I could see any preexisting plans/agreements/negotiation for a 2024 CWC simply being seamlessly passed over to that. Gecko G (talk) 20:56, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The page was created based off the earlier FIFA article, though today's announcement confirmed it in fact will not take place. Instead, a modified competition will be held in 2024, which the 2024 CWC link now redirects to. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I think this new cup would take quite a long time to complete given the fact I can see 332 teams in there! Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 22:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Iggy the Swan: It was a typo. I think Joseph2302 meant to say 32. Mwiqdoh (talk) 05:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'll eat my hat if that competion is ever played out. It would be a direct competitior of the World Club Cup. At most it will only be played once in 2024. -Koppapa (talk) 07:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think the Club World Cup is an every four years deal, so a yearly event of shorter magnitude makes sense. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:25, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Seems to be intended like a club equivalent of a mixture of the Confederations Cup & Artemio Franchi Cup/Finalissima, only held annually. Gecko G (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think the Club World Cup is an every four years deal, so a yearly event of shorter magnitude makes sense. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:25, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'll eat my hat if that competion is ever played out. It would be a direct competitior of the World Club Cup. At most it will only be played once in 2024. -Koppapa (talk) 07:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Iggy the Swan: It was a typo. I think Joseph2302 meant to say 32. Mwiqdoh (talk) 05:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I think this new cup would take quite a long time to complete given the fact I can see 332 teams in there! Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 22:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- The page was created based off the earlier FIFA article, though today's announcement confirmed it in fact will not take place. Instead, a modified competition will be held in 2024, which the 2024 CWC link now redirects to. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm not sure it's so cut and dry as that. https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/saudi-arabia-to-host-club-world-cup-december-2023 states the 2023 event will be the penultimate version with seven teams, and that was written last month. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Loanee Xavier Simons signs deal
Hello, loanee Xavier Simons signs a deal with Hull City. Should we change him to new status immediatly or should we continue with him as a loanee until the end of season and then switch for next season? Obviously what an IP has done is wrong removing the loan from stats. Keith D (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- he is a loanee until the transfer window re-opens, unless I am missing something? GiantSnowman 21:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Loans can be converted to permanent at any time during the loan: see e.g. EFL scroll down to Regulation 56.2, it says in the guidance after that regulation that
A player registered on a Standard Loan at a Club may subsequently be transferred to that Club at any time during a Closed Period.
. Seeing as the rules permit such a transfer to be made at any time, and there's nothing in the club's report of the move or in the BBC's to suggest it doesn't come into force until the next window opens, I'd assume he is now a permanent Hull City player. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Loans can be converted to permanent at any time during the loan: see e.g. EFL scroll down to Regulation 56.2, it says in the guidance after that regulation that
Hi all, can somebody keep an eye on this page and maybe even lock it (for the time being)? During the last couple of weeks, a lot of vandalism has taken place (mostly from Galatasaray fans, presumably). To top it all off, a banned user Ahmetger has returned using an IP Address to push his own research, adding Turkish Cup wins in a list of league champions. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 17:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- The page has been protected for three months now, but it wouldn't hurt to have some more eyes on this page I think. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 08:32, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Denis Neville
For this individual, more famous as a manager, WorldFootball says he played for Fulham from 1932-1946, but he is not listed at ENFA. Any clarification? GiantSnowman 06:53, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Does ENFA (unlike Hugman) cover pre-WW2 as well as post? If so, and he isn't listed, that would suggest he never played a first team game for Fulham, although spending all that time at one club without ever playing a first team game (even with the caveat of the war taking up a chunk of it) seems mildly implausible..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- If he ever featured in the EFL pre or post-war then he'd be on ENFA. Spending the ages of 17 to 24 at a club without playing a first-team game is vaguely plausible, though not likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EchetusXe (talk • contribs)
- Best I can find is this snippet from the Harrow Observer that has a D.C. Neville, formerly of Courtfield and Wealdstone FC's and on Fulham's books as an amateur, joining Barnet in September 1936. Certainly never played for Fulham's first team, or as mentioned above he'd be on ENFA. There are D. Nevilles that might be him, kicking round West London/Middlesex amateur teams in the 1930s. Maybe he hyped his backstory a bit when trying to get started in coaching; there's a lengthy Dutch-language interview-based piece from 1964, linked from the de.wiki article, that contains a fair bit of name-dropping and states that "Denis was jarenlang een steunpilaar van Fulham", which Google translates as "Denis was a Fulham mainstay for many years". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Name dropping yes indeed. Maybe he once played against Ted Drake, but this was not in the league or in a major Cup. He also spent much time in the army. Cattivi (talk) 12:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- He became trainer of Berchem in 1952. He was also a member of their select committee. This article mentions him playing for Aldershot and coaching in the Army. In Italy he wrote a book. [2] He left the club after two seasons [3] Initially he intended to join Xerxes, but that never happened. Cattivi (talk) 15:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- If he ever featured in the EFL pre or post-war then he'd be on ENFA. Spending the ages of 17 to 24 at a club without playing a first-team game is vaguely plausible, though not likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EchetusXe (talk • contribs)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/National teams: Current Squad information
If a player's date of birth or cap number is unconfirmed, do people prefer that it is listed as blank or with a question mark? I prefer a blank space for DoB and a 0 for cap number, but there is no best-practice listed at the moment. I have been prompted into this question following an edit on the Kenya national football team page. Felixsv7 (talk) 14:37, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd say either blank for dob or have "Unknown" so that it's a bit clearer for the reader. For cap numbers, I'd go with the number of confirmed caps which is quite possibly 0 for players in this category. If we know a player has had one cap but may have had 10, then it would look a bit strange to have 0. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why not just have the cap number blank? If we don't know, it could be more than 0, which makes 0 factually incorrect. --SuperJew (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yup, 0 would be wrong. Leave it blank as it looks like those players were not capped before but they may been. Kante4 (talk) 19:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- 100% do not put 0 to represent an unknown number of caps -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yup, 0 would be wrong. Leave it blank as it looks like those players were not capped before but they may been. Kante4 (talk) 19:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why not just have the cap number blank? If we don't know, it could be more than 0, which makes 0 factually incorrect. --SuperJew (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Lionel Messi and Supercopa de España in 2005
Lionel Messi was not called up for Supercopa de España in 2005. I think that it should be removed from "honours" section of Wikipedia article about him. NextEditor123 (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- The various sources attached to that part of the article all credit him with the award, so we should too. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:02, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which primary sources say that? NextEditor123 (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- There was a discussion a couple of months back with consensus to remove such honours when not called up... Kante4 (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- I understand that but there are a couple of users who still protest there by edit warrings inside the article ( Alex Emeritus and Nampa DC). You can look at the talk section. NextEditor123 (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- When Uefa itself considers it that what, wikipedia should yield to that decision and do what is already mentioned, not act according to their biased self imposed conditions. Alex Emeritus (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article is temporarily blocked now. Congratulations, genius. You could have just follow the consensus and not cause problems. NextEditor123 (talk) 12:54, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- When Uefa itself considers it that what, wikipedia should yield to that decision and do what is already mentioned, not act according to their biased self imposed conditions. Alex Emeritus (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I understand that but there are a couple of users who still protest there by edit warrings inside the article ( Alex Emeritus and Nampa DC). You can look at the talk section. NextEditor123 (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- There was a discussion a couple of months back with consensus to remove such honours when not called up... Kante4 (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which primary sources say that? NextEditor123 (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Here is the discussion which resulted in a convincing consensus that players should not be credited with Cups won in matches for which they were not called up for the squad. Therefore, Messi's Supercopa de España should be removed. Black Kite (talk) 00:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Alex Emeritus: The consensus is clear and editing against it is disruptive and can lead to getting blocked. If you disagree you are welcome to start a discussion about that again but NOT just reverting to your preferred version. Kante4 (talk) 13:10, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- My name cropped up here (I hadn’t got involved with the debate but merely requested the user @Next Editor123: seek a consensus in talk before changing contentious material). He was edit warring with another user :@Alex Emeritus: before either of them knew of any prior consensus. I wasn’t aware of this previous discussion in 2020 over this (minor) issue. While that is a consensus, I’m not sure on the merit of it due to the arguments given: No was not in the squad, No because he was not called up in the squad, No unless any photos can be found of him with a medal, he didn't play; also, there is no evidence of him receiving a medal, Not even on bench on either leg, no honour in my book, No, an exception can be made if there is photographic or video evidence of a player officially recieving a medal. All of these are subjective rather than relating to anything official regarding criteria in Spain. @PeeJay: (who voted in that) then chimes in with this today: Anyone who considers Messi to have won that title is a bit of a fanboy. More subjective analysis (and pretty silly). I don’t consider anyone debating this to be biased (not that it should need to be said, but given PeeJay’s comment, I doubt anyone cares if he won it or not). The goal here is accuracy. If he’s physically standing in front of eight SuperCopas (and all the rest of the 35 trophies attributed to him by the club, UEFA, and a plethora of reliable sources from the BBC, ESPN, Marca, newspapers of record in the U.K. The Telegraph and The Guardian, the latter article by Sid Lowe, etc.) who are we to argue against this? Nampa DC (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Who are they to claim that he won the 2005 Supercopa without even remotely being involved in it? Claims that he won eight Supercopas are just attempts to big-up a player who shouldn't need to claim titles he didn't win. – PeeJay 22:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- More subjective analysis (“big-up a player”). This is not an argument as to whether he is attributed the trophy or not. I’ve yet to see anything that counters him winning it. Nampa DC (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- And “who are they”? Reliable sources that are used on this site. In contrast, Wikipedia editors are not a source. Nampa DC (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that he wasn't involved in that competition in any way, shape or form should probably indicate to you that he didn't win it... – PeeJay 22:46, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I've had a look at our article 2005 Supercopa de España and I don't find Messi mentioned at all. This is not a league or a season-long knockout, it's a single match (albeit one with two legs). If he didn't participate in either leg, he didn't win the Supercopa. That's about the end of it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any contemporaneous sources saying he won it, rather than Barca saying he did 15+ years later? A picture of him standing in front of a set of trophies doesn't prove anything. Spike 'em (talk) 09:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I realise my position on this is in conflict with my argument on Jimmy Greaves above / below. I guess we should therefore do a similar thing, and mention what Barca / other sources say of the back of this and add a note that Messi didn't actually play in the matches. Spike 'em (talk) 07:50, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any contemporaneous sources saying he won it, rather than Barca saying he did 15+ years later? A picture of him standing in front of a set of trophies doesn't prove anything. Spike 'em (talk) 09:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- More subjective analysis (“big-up a player”). This is not an argument as to whether he is attributed the trophy or not. I’ve yet to see anything that counters him winning it. Nampa DC (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Who are they to claim that he won the 2005 Supercopa without even remotely being involved in it? Claims that he won eight Supercopas are just attempts to big-up a player who shouldn't need to claim titles he didn't win. – PeeJay 22:13, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- My name cropped up here (I hadn’t got involved with the debate but merely requested the user @Next Editor123: seek a consensus in talk before changing contentious material). He was edit warring with another user :@Alex Emeritus: before either of them knew of any prior consensus. I wasn’t aware of this previous discussion in 2020 over this (minor) issue. While that is a consensus, I’m not sure on the merit of it due to the arguments given: No was not in the squad, No because he was not called up in the squad, No unless any photos can be found of him with a medal, he didn't play; also, there is no evidence of him receiving a medal, Not even on bench on either leg, no honour in my book, No, an exception can be made if there is photographic or video evidence of a player officially recieving a medal. All of these are subjective rather than relating to anything official regarding criteria in Spain. @PeeJay: (who voted in that) then chimes in with this today: Anyone who considers Messi to have won that title is a bit of a fanboy. More subjective analysis (and pretty silly). I don’t consider anyone debating this to be biased (not that it should need to be said, but given PeeJay’s comment, I doubt anyone cares if he won it or not). The goal here is accuracy. If he’s physically standing in front of eight SuperCopas (and all the rest of the 35 trophies attributed to him by the club, UEFA, and a plethora of reliable sources from the BBC, ESPN, Marca, newspapers of record in the U.K. The Telegraph and The Guardian, the latter article by Sid Lowe, etc.) who are we to argue against this? Nampa DC (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
I think we now have a much bigger problem here than just an issue over a (minor) trophy. Right now, as it stands, we currently have some Wikipedia editors, using original research: which is to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources, trumping published, reliable sources. A cornerstone of Wikipedia has been breached here: Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. This discussion needs to be taken outside the confines of those who follow the sport as the responses here are tainted with subjective analysis: “he didn’t play”, “wasn’t in the squad”, even further “wasn’t in the A squad”, “wasn’t pictured with a medal”, it’s “just attempts to big-up a player”. These all reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. @Koncorde: is one the editor from this previous discussion who nails it; the answer is to err on the side of reliable sources even if it doesn't appear right. Messi not being involved in the two legs (which was due to issues with his legal status until he acquired Spanish citizenship, nothing to do with status as a first team member which he was, not that this is relevant) and saying he didn’t win the trophy is reaching your own conclusion ie. original research. We don’t know the criteria for what constitutes the winning of a trophy in Spain. No-one editing on here (I’d like to think) could care less if he won 2, 10 or 254 Copas, the aim is accuracy, and right now we have a Wikipedia article, via subjective analysis not supported by sources, trumping a plethora of published, reliable sources (including from Catalan journalists, Madrid based journalists, the governing body of the sport in Europe, and even Messi physically standing in front of the eight SuperCopas attributed to him). Nampa DC (talk) 12:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- so this is just an alt version of the discussion higher up about the efl cupMuur (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Though related, there's a sleight technicality of a difference- For the league cup the medal is specifically for the final but the question is (partially) about should the tournament be listed under the player's honours if they contributed in the teams effort in earlier part(s) of the tournament but didn't individually play in the final (plus some other questions about sourcing, which I'm staying out of); whereas for a Supercup there's only the final (albeit apparently a 2 legged one in this case) - no larger tournament behind it. Gecko G (talk) 17:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think Wikipedia editors are using original research, they're highlighting sources of the game itself to indicate he didn't receive a medal as he wasn't part of the squad. Contemporary reports differ from reports from when the game took place. Wikipedia editors are allowed to come together and make a set of universal rules regarding who does and doesn't get recognised as a trophy winner on Wikipedia. I think the discussion here seems fairly conclusive on the matter. And the recent discussion about the Greaves/Kane goals record shows that it can be demonstrated that reliable sources aren't infallible and may sometimes err on the side of recentism. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- If our analysis / interpretation of sources differs from the weight of reliable sources - that's beyond OR and into SYNTH. With Greaves the issue is one of there being actual documented secondary sources listing the goal totals, and then Spurs using their own criteria for deciding who they think is their top scorer. Our decision was editorial only. We are not saying Spurs are wrong (they can choose any criteria that they like for their own awards) but that other sources disagree as to who is the top scorer for Spurs at that time, and what goals are included (for the same reason we have issues when we try the "most successful football club" argument, numerous sources use different lists of trophies and they are free to create their own lists - but editorially we are free to count ALL the trophies and ignore their attempts at major and minor etc).
- In contrast with Messi attempts to use anything other than the reliable sources (such as asserting he wasn't on the pitch, in the squad, wasn't photographed etc) is irrelevant to the actual observable sources. If we have sources that explicitly make the argument that he does not have that trophy then we have a dispute, but that still does not override the weight of sources. Koncorde (talk) 16:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any actual reliable secondary sources that give a breakdown for Messi, or does it all just tie back to Barcelona making the assertion? Spike 'em (talk) 17:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- i do think its silly to try and give him winning a super cup that he didnt play in. but if barca say he won it, then id say to go with that. he did play in whatever competition to help them qualify...but then i guess that then goes oh that guy helped real madrid qualify for the champions league. he played 0 games the next year cuz he was injured but since he helped them qualify... iffy stuff. if barca say it, id count it i think because theyre then sayin they gave him a medal. same as the efl cup stuff.Muur (talk) 17:39, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- He wasn't even eligible to be in the squad due to non-EU regulations allowing three foreign players, who were Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Marquez - see here. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again, this doesn't say he didn't win it or wasn't given a medal. Absent an article that actually refutes the claim, we're on SYNTH territory. Koncorde (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- If he wasn't eligible to even participate in the competition, how on earth has he won the competition? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- That is the definition of Original Research. Even "if" he wasn't eligible, the question is are there any sources that say so, and do they say so in such a way that makes it clear he would not be eligible to receive a medal. Going back to an earlier point: unless we know the award criteria, or the source explicitly states it, we go by reliable sources. Koncorde (talk) 22:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- If he wasn't eligible to even participate in the competition, how on earth has he won the competition? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again, this doesn't say he didn't win it or wasn't given a medal. Absent an article that actually refutes the claim, we're on SYNTH territory. Koncorde (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any actual reliable secondary sources that give a breakdown for Messi, or does it all just tie back to Barcelona making the assertion? Spike 'em (talk) 17:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Here is an interesting tweet. Even the Twitter account of the "official stat supplier of messi.com" has doubts about whether Messi should be considered to have won the 2005 Supercopa. – PeeJay 19:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Couple of issues there PeeJay. 1. He says 05/06 Supercopa... which would be the 2006 final. Obvious mistake aside, he also questions the CL that he definitely took part in. So, yeah. 2. We know public opinion will be divided, but we're not asking for opinion. We're asking for verifiable sources. Koncorde (talk) 22:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
List of Champions League winning players
Several months ago, a Wikipedia article about Champions League winning players was deleted. Can we put names of the winning players on CL records and statistics article or can we somehow re-create the article in Wikipedia? (Same thing with Europa League). NextEditor123 (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sounds like STATCRUFT to me. Do any third party reliable sources talk about this as a group of people to satisfy WP:LISTN? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:59, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- The records page lists the 18 players who have won the competition on 5 or more occasions: I think this is more than enough. Sounds like the page was deleted with good reason. You'd need clear consensus to overturn this, otherwise any new page would face the same fate. Spike 'em (talk) 20:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- There are many list of winning players like from Premier League or biggest leagues of other sports in Wikipedia. Why can't Champions League have the same treatment there? NextEditor123 (talk) 05:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- It sounds like something that would be better suited to a category than a list ... and that already exists (Category:UEFA_Champions_League_winning_players). Black Kite (talk) 12:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree these are crazy and would better suit categories. On that note, should we also delete List of Premier League winning players? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, let's delete a featured list. Champion idea. Mattythewhite (talk) 18:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- The same policies would apply, this ever-growing group of players is not covered as a collective in independent sources. There are eight independent sources in the article; one is discussing the breakaway of the Premier League, two and three are about medal eligibility, four and five are about special dispensation for getting a medal, six is about a miniature Premier League trophy, seven is a list of teams who have won the English title, eight is about Ryan Giggs' trophy haul. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 19:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Well, that's kinda the point - FLs don't have a right to never be deleted. The question with these lists are very much if they meet WP:LISTN. As many citations as that article has, there didn't seem to be many cites talking about winning players for the PL or CL. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:19, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- The Champions League list seemed to have been deleted predominantly due to the difficulty in establishing criteria for inclusion and finding UEFA sources to establish who should be deemed a competition winner, which is not the case with the Premier League list.
- I'm struggling with the idea that Premier League winning players are "not covered as a collective in independent sources". Given the attention the Premier League receives worldwide there is bound to plenty of coverage of the competition's winning players. Just because the list itself includes only a certain number of independent sources doesn't mean that there aren't more out there. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:14, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- "There is bound to plenty of coverage" isn't an argument. Ass Lee Vilenski said, "Do any third party reliable sources talk about this as a group of people to satisfy WP:LISTN?" All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, let's delete a featured list. Champion idea. Mattythewhite (talk) 18:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree these are crazy and would better suit categories. On that note, should we also delete List of Premier League winning players? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- It sounds like something that would be better suited to a category than a list ... and that already exists (Category:UEFA_Champions_League_winning_players). Black Kite (talk) 12:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- There are many list of winning players like from Premier League or biggest leagues of other sports in Wikipedia. Why can't Champions League have the same treatment there? NextEditor123 (talk) 05:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The records page lists the 18 players who have won the competition on 5 or more occasions: I think this is more than enough. Sounds like the page was deleted with good reason. You'd need clear consensus to overturn this, otherwise any new page would face the same fate. Spike 'em (talk) 20:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
Assistance on Page
Hope you are well. Working on Italian/American professional athletes. Need some assistance in regards to the article on Professional Italian/American soccer player Andrea Pregoni. I have created a draft with notable references sites as well used in other professional soccer players articles references. Need some assistance in regard for the next steps. Also for the layout please let me know your feedback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Andrea_Pregoni
Rocdre (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Good article reassessment for San Marino national football team
San Marino national football team has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 00:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
How can we be "disputing" pure facts? What Tottenham says doesn't change the fact of how many goals he truly scored. We don't need to make a note on his factual stats saying "Oh but Tottenham say that these don't count so they don't". Mwiqdoh (talk) 04:29, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. This all came about as Kane was nearing Greaves’ total and Tottenham held a different value to anyone else. Kane has now surpassed Greaves and Greaves total goals should include the Charity Shield regardless of what Tottenham think of Charity Shield goals.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Really, we've been through this twice already? Different sources give different figures, which is not changed by the fact that Kane has overtaken him. Spike 'em (talk) 07:05, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Spike 'em: The question is not about how many goals he has scored, that's undeniable regardless of what sources say. The question is whether we count FA Charity Shield appearances and goals or not, and guess what, if you go on any player page, FA Charity Shield/FA Community Shield appearances and goals are counted! Mwiqdoh (talk) 08:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Specifying the country of a league
As per the blatantly rude edit summary here, is it really a problem to state for clarity the country that a league is in, especially in a scenario like this one where you have a player from one country playing in the league of a second, on loan from the league of a third (and neither league actually has the name of the country in its name).....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:44, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a problem, especially for smaller countries and/or countries with similiar named leagues. You could claim to not neccesarily need it for the big leagues, but I don't think it harms having it. --SuperJew (talk) 10:16, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Sourcing on "List of foreign [LEAGUE NAME] players"
What should be the sourcing for such articles? For example List of foreign Premier League players (which as an aside, shouldn't those flags in the headers be removed per MOS:FLAGS?), the only references are a general database which is hard and annoying to verify, a BBC report from 2009 which I doubt covers the whole list, and a source from 2012 which is permanently dead.
Should we have a sourcing for each player (something which shows his nationality and/or joining/playing for the team)? There seems to be a lot of work to do on these kind of articles anyway. List of foreign A-League Men players and List of foreign A-League Women players are quite complete, but same question about sourcing (referenced to general databases).
I'm asking as I'm trying to get List of foreign Liga F players up to level, and noticed that it's not very updated, but also that the sourcing is per player if it's there.
Cheers, --SuperJew (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's important to find significant coverage of the list topic as well. With respect to Liga F, there is a 2020 article at Grada3.com that is useful. More recently, the league is implementing restrictions on non-EU player licenses which would be useful to cover, Deportivo Mundo covered it in 2022. Jogurney (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @SuperJew:
the only references are a general database which is hard and annoying to verify....
- that reference is also dead, so the Premier League one is essentially unsourced...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2023 (UTC)- Not just MOS:FLAG, but also MOS:HEAD on the flags in the headers should be removed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- ChrisTheDude That database could be easily replaced with any other general database, such as Soccerway etc. (remember there was one really good for EPL, but can't remember currently... been a long day). Question is if that's enough sourcing or we should source each player with inline citation. --SuperJew (talk) 14:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
significant coverage of the list topic as well
- that would be for notability and the prose sections, yes? Thanks for the links :) --SuperJew (talk) 14:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- @SuperJew: