Formerly User:Truthkeeper88
New Vector
The new skin obvs greatly reduces the amount of screen space allowed for the article, and fixed width images are now creating massive test squash. Text squash on lower resolution monitors is coming up more and more frequent at FAC and more worryingly at FAR. However not freaking out as I think the poll at village pump is veering towards narrowing the borders between the side bar and the article by default (rather than the current op-in).
One good thing with the new look though, at least the mobile skin is not not now far worse than the desktop view :) Ceoil (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- I just switched over to check VvG and surprisingly am finding the editing experience easier. The other skins were causing headaches; this less so. Go figure. I might keep it after all. The image squash issues are problematic throughout the site, particulary for laptops, but I guess an excuse to revisit old articles and weed out dross? How are you doing, btw? Hope all is well with you and family. We are in the post-Christmas doldrums. Victoria (tk) 02:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- I freaked out about all the sandwich issues I thought the skin would create, and so far I haven't encountered any, after checking a few of the recent FAR saves. Can't say my testing was rigorous. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- With a few tweaks it might get there. I hit my watchlist and contribs several times per hopur when on line, and dont like that its now too clicks to to that. That's because I'm lazy, but on the good side, because you cant see those specific buttons always, it makes the site slightly less addictive - Rigger and you said a few times that the way to escape is to limit your watchlist - maybe the WMF have inadvertently liberated their free labour!
- We are fine and heading back to Ireland, exhausted, next weekend, at least for a few weeks. Optimistic; Liz's father doing well, and it looks like she can now spend most of time at home. Ceoil (talk) 03:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- ps Firefangled, I'm on wait and see re heavily reconfiguring old articles of mine until it all pans out. Ceoil (talk) 03:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oh, that's excellent news! Yes, staying away from the watchlist is step one for addiction avoidance. Somehow I've learned to stay away enough now, that seeing my watchlist float by doesn't entice me to edit.
- Firefangledfeathers, yeah I freaked out too. I'm seeing some problems but haven't checked much either. I'm wondering whether making the image default to 190px from 220px might fix some issues now that the text columns are smaller, but it seems like there are other issues they need to address. I can't figure out how to toggle from wide to narrow w/out scrolling all the way to the top, which isn't optimal. Will address the image problems slowly. Victoria (tk) 03:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- P.s I really really hate the lilac color in the watchlist. Enough to avoid it. Victoria (tk) 03:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Thanks
...for your work on Sir Charles Asgil. Sorry Anne cannot or will not understand how to edit better. I intend to take a look at Asgil Affair when I have time and perform similar cleanup. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:24, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hi David, thanks for the note. It gave me the opportunity to give V22 a test drive - generally I like it, but it was buggy during that series of edits. I've been looking at Asgill Affair and thinking either redirect back to Sir Charles Asgill, stub down, or rewrite from scratch. There's a 2020 book by GW historian Peter Henriques that devotes an entire chapter to it. I downloaded the chapter last night from Project Muse, but haven't had time to read it. Happy to send it on to you if you'd like. Ron Chernow devotes two pages to it in his 2010 Washington bio, which I was able to view and capture. Those two sources are good and probably enough for what's needed. If we end up with a redirect, then I'd take another run through the Sir Charles Asgill article using only these sources. I may end up doing that anyway, but taking a break from it for a while and spending a bit of time reading the sources. Victoria (tk) 21:05, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Starting from scratch might be a solid idea, but stripping out the cruft from the current article might give some insights into structure. I've got MUSE access through my institution, so that's no problem. I'll see about nabbing the Chernow book. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 21:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
Dealing with COI editors
I know from experience that dealing with COI editors can be exhausting. Please rest assured that it is obvious to others what claims being made against you in that noticeboard section are really about - a frustrated person lashing out. Illegitimi non carborundum. MrOllie (talk) 23:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- I deleted the edits I made at Sir Charles Asgill, 2nd Baronet, in this this edit. Ignore the previous edit; it went wonky. Still getting used to V22. Everything I fixed can be found in history and it's best that others deal with it. The PAs are getting to me, to be honest. Thanks for stopping by, though. Victoria (tk) 00:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
Thank you
The you rock barnstar | ||
Thanks so much for the end-to-end copyedit on the Tomb of Philippe Pot article. Its always great to get a cold reader's view, and you did wonders with my paddy-eng that wont be forgotten. Ceoil (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC) |
- Thanks, that's not necessary but nice. I'm about to put the computer away for a bit, sit on my hands, bite my tongue, whatever, before I call out what to me comes across as a patronizing tone. Anyway, spelling and paddy-eng is what it is, not to be apologized for. It's not like I don't make a ton of editing mistakes too. And I'm 100% number dyslexic and totally tone deaf, so you've got a few abilties I haven't! I think the article is fine, but I know the subject area and am not afraid of making fixes. Victoria (tk) 17:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, well, English people have their tone. In other news the Madonna of the Dry Tree article is looking great. Nice work; its a pity its so understudied and there are not a lot of sources. Am reminded of The Glorification of the Virgin, but cannot find any source to explain or confirm. Ceoil (talk) 17:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Dunno what to do about the Dry Tree. I had some small idea I might talk you into nominating for FAC with me as co-nom, but after seeing your tomb Fac am more than ever convinced to stay away from there for the same reasons I left, however many years ago. That said, since I've made copyedits to the tomb and am having issues seeing through the walls of text on the FAC have offered to help. If that's ok. If it's not, we can have a huge fight over there about it. Victoria (tk) 18:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Ive been waiting for years for you to ask re the tree: its obviously a panel that haunts me. Would be honoured, but need a few weeks to run though prose. I'll cip away at a copy edit, then we can have a huge fight, take each other to AN/I, and whoever is leftover and not indeffed can nom. Deal? Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- It's not ready yet, but it's getting there. The bigger issue is that I'm not ready to reengage at FAC, so let's chip away at it and see how it goes. Re the tomb; I guess I made things worse. I thought that issues that are taken care of should be struck, but I guess not? Anyway, huge apologies for sticking a toe in there - it seems to have made things worse. Victoria (tk) 21:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for you, I have thicker skin than you, and you are now captured in a march towards FAC :) Haha, but yeah it does need a lot of work, and will chip away over the next few months. I do however think its a very worthwhile project: the painting is exceptional and you have done so much research. I would be very proud indeed to co-nom another collab. ps, I'm fine with not stiking, and said to PCN02WPS that his points were resolved by this diff range. So its all good. Ceoil (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- I've read of long lists of prose nitpicks but haven't really seen it until today. My vision isn't 100%, so it's a bit hard to navigate and I hadn't realized that I was putting the onus on the reviewer. When I was reviewing I was engaged and struck points so the nominator had a sense of progress but I suppose that's a commitment. It's certainly more than I'm able to do these days b/c I never know when I'll be here from day-to-day. Speaking of which, am about to bail out. Keeping the Dry Tree in our sights is a good goal. Thanks for the work on the Exeter. I have now figured out how to make that cropper thingie work, but still searching for a high rez image. But enough for me for today! Victoria (tk) 00:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Me neither and I agree but worse things happen at sea, at least to me, and a lot. More importantly, its been about six years since I wanted to do serious work om the tree article; if its a collab you are interested in my arm is twisted, given how much you know about this period.
- I've read of long lists of prose nitpicks but haven't really seen it until today. My vision isn't 100%, so it's a bit hard to navigate and I hadn't realized that I was putting the onus on the reviewer. When I was reviewing I was engaged and struck points so the nominator had a sense of progress but I suppose that's a commitment. It's certainly more than I'm able to do these days b/c I never know when I'll be here from day-to-day. Speaking of which, am about to bail out. Keeping the Dry Tree in our sights is a good goal. Thanks for the work on the Exeter. I have now figured out how to make that cropper thingie work, but still searching for a high rez image. But enough for me for today! Victoria (tk) 00:01, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for you, I have thicker skin than you, and you are now captured in a march towards FAC :) Haha, but yeah it does need a lot of work, and will chip away over the next few months. I do however think its a very worthwhile project: the painting is exceptional and you have done so much research. I would be very proud indeed to co-nom another collab. ps, I'm fine with not stiking, and said to PCN02WPS that his points were resolved by this diff range. So its all good. Ceoil (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- It's not ready yet, but it's getting there. The bigger issue is that I'm not ready to reengage at FAC, so let's chip away at it and see how it goes. Re the tomb; I guess I made things worse. I thought that issues that are taken care of should be struck, but I guess not? Anyway, huge apologies for sticking a toe in there - it seems to have made things worse. Victoria (tk) 21:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Ive been waiting for years for you to ask re the tree: its obviously a panel that haunts me. Would be honoured, but need a few weeks to run though prose. I'll cip away at a copy edit, then we can have a huge fight, take each other to AN/I, and whoever is leftover and not indeffed can nom. Deal? Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Dunno what to do about the Dry Tree. I had some small idea I might talk you into nominating for FAC with me as co-nom, but after seeing your tomb Fac am more than ever convinced to stay away from there for the same reasons I left, however many years ago. That said, since I've made copyedits to the tomb and am having issues seeing through the walls of text on the FAC have offered to help. If that's ok. If it's not, we can have a huge fight over there about it. Victoria (tk) 18:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
(cough cough and) .... if hear nothing in the next 10 minutes, will assume you are all in. Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Funny. I went out for a while, so I guess now I'm committed. As long as we keep in mind that real life has a habit of interrupting and keeping both of us away at times (me more than you). But yeah, I was kinda going in that direction & then took a detour via the Exeter. Victoria (tk) 21:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Would be deeply honoured to collab on the dry tree with you. As said many times before, the painting is haunting, bewitching. Obvs the road will be hard, but such an uber gothic panel, we should go for it. Ceoil (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'll be mostly gone for the next week or so (possibly longer) but will pick it up when I get back. I think after reviewing the sources I'd decided to ignore the single long pdf re all the trees of the bible and follow what everyone else says. Which isn't much. It's skimpy on sources. Pol Pot seems to be moving along a quick pace! Good luck over there. Victoria (tk) 15:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- My feeling is that the Christus is a very impactful painting that is relatively light on iconography and thus under-studied. IOW it is what it is, and a short, no padding article is in stept with how it was intended - a very clever and somewhat disturbing visual treat to be enjoyed for shock, but not much thought about if you are the type of late Middle Ages noble who takes the religious meaning/stuff seriously. Ceoil (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Was up late last night happily debating veganism with my sister in law after a night in the pub, so very groggy today and hence slow in responding to your FAC points. IOWs, not as young as i used to be ;) The suggestions were great, and plan is to put time in get sorted Tuesday night. Yours in pain and misery Ceoil (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sounds like you had a nice time. I haven't been feeling great myself, so still kinda sorta not here. Though I did answer a question re grammar on that FAC a few moments ago. If you can slip in something somewhere that the pleurants were the defining characteristics of the Burgundian tombs and that the early tombs had small removable pleurants in niches, that might be helpful. But I'm not really sure. It all makes sense to me. Dunno when I'll be back to editing more consistently. Victoria (tk) 20:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- These were all excellent suggestions, esp with regards the mourners sizes. Have been thinking for years of startifying Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy, but all the broad surveys are in French, and my French is not great. Anyways, after this experience, think Tandragee Idol is better suited to my current mood ;) Hope you are well and thanks again. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- That image gives a better sense of the smaller mourners in the earlier tomb. I was thinking we need an article for the tombs, but my French wouldn't be up to it either! Not even close. Pot's tomb is very dramatic and it drew attention. As well as can be. Victoria (tk) 00:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Good to hear. Obvs your time here wax and wains :( but is always high quality; between bursts of high content additions you seem to be settling into a role of an insightful and trusted firefighter, able almost immediately grasp the brief and bring clam and a constructive, highly informed path forward to any situation. ok, need to sleep, but still. Ceoil (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- That image gives a better sense of the smaller mourners in the earlier tomb. I was thinking we need an article for the tombs, but my French wouldn't be up to it either! Not even close. Pot's tomb is very dramatic and it drew attention. As well as can be. Victoria (tk) 00:58, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- These were all excellent suggestions, esp with regards the mourners sizes. Have been thinking for years of startifying Tomb Sculptures from the Court of Burgundy, but all the broad surveys are in French, and my French is not great. Anyways, after this experience, think Tandragee Idol is better suited to my current mood ;) Hope you are well and thanks again. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sounds like you had a nice time. I haven't been feeling great myself, so still kinda sorta not here. Though I did answer a question re grammar on that FAC a few moments ago. If you can slip in something somewhere that the pleurants were the defining characteristics of the Burgundian tombs and that the early tombs had small removable pleurants in niches, that might be helpful. But I'm not really sure. It all makes sense to me. Dunno when I'll be back to editing more consistently. Victoria (tk) 20:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- Was up late last night happily debating veganism with my sister in law after a night in the pub, so very groggy today and hence slow in responding to your FAC points. IOWs, not as young as i used to be ;) The suggestions were great, and plan is to put time in get sorted Tuesday night. Yours in pain and misery Ceoil (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Would be deeply honoured to collab on the dry tree with you. As said many times before, the painting is haunting, bewitching. Obvs the road will be hard, but such an uber gothic panel, we should go for it. Ceoil (talk) 02:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Your work
Scholarly Barnstar | ||
We haven't had a chance to collaborate, but I wanted to say that several of the Northern Renaissance articles you had helped elevate to FA are easily among the most thorough and reliable free access materials on the topic available online. They're a great educational resource and I've used them in my own teaching. Ppt91talk 19:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
- Wow, thanks! As you've probably noticed most are collaborations with Ceoil and others. The few I've done on my own rarely make it through the FA process, i.e Memling's St John Altarpiece (Memling), but that was done in a classroom and we had lots of fun talking about "head-on-a-platter" motifs, among other things. Victoria (tk) 21:14, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- I gave one to Ceoil shortly after posting yours! Hope we can work together on stuff in the future. Sending my best wishes. :) Ppt91talk 21:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oh good - he's done much more work in the area than I have. Best to you too. Victoria (tk) 22:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- "he's done much more work in the area than I have" - nonsense but whatever. User:Ppt91 its really nice for you to think of us. Ceoil (talk) 19:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- I gave one to Ceoil shortly after posting yours! Hope we can work together on stuff in the future. Sending my best wishes. :) Ppt91talk 21:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
my story today |
- just a little greeting, Victoria, and it fits here, - thank you for what you do, and we don't need competition ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
On an 'unknown' Hans Memling
Dear Victoriaearle I noticed your edits on the list of paintings by Hans Memling the 15th century Flemish painter. This is why I contact you, indeed I visited recently a small art museum in a French town and was completely gobsmacked finding myself face to face with an original Hans Memling painting (denoted as such by the museum) in a room among other much less interesting paintings. The painting is small about 35cm in a square (it was just on the wall, had no protection, I could have touched it). It depicts a Mass of St. Gregory the Great, of very much impressive quality and completely in the style of the master. I was so taken aback that I forgot to take a picture but I can get back to the museum for that. Now the list of works by Hans Memling does not include a mass of St. Gregory on wikipedia nor could I find much trace of it on the web. Do you have access to sources listing his works ? Can you check whether such a work is listed somewhere?!Iry-Hor (talk) 12:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- ..15th century German painter... It is very likely to be on Joconde. It would of course help to know which town and which museum! Johnbod (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Iry-Hor, that's interesting and exciting! Yes, knowing the name of the town and art museum helps. From a quick cursory search I'm wondering if it's this triptych described here, or perhaps a separated panel from that triptych, based on the dimensions. Will keep digging. Tks JB for the link to Joconde; I didn't know about that. Helpful. Victoria (tk) 14:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well it does resemble the central part of the triptych you refer to but is not this one. The Christ figure is very much similar but the priest isn't the same and the rest is also different. I will go back and take a photograph. The Museum is the Musée des Beaux Arts, Calais see the museum website, the only place on the web where they mention what I saw is this website here where they just state that the museum holds a La messe de Saint-Grégoire by Hans Memling. I cannot find the piece on google image and the museum is rather small, mostly holding contemporary sculpture. I must say I am still a bit shaken by the unexpected beauty of the piece in an unexpected place.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you can get a picture and add to these in c:Category:Paintings of the Mass of Saint Gregory, that would be great! I've been down a few rabbit holes today but haven't been able to find mention of that specific painting except for the website you linked above. Memling copied his paintings and then tended to individualise for the specific donor, i.e the central panel of St John Altarpiece (Memling) is similar to the Mystic Marriage of St. Catherine (Memling). Then there's the interesting Pagagnotti Triptych which has its panels separated and in another museum from the central panel (which was in the same place for many centuries). The most in-depth Memling source is Dirk de Vos, g-books link, but it's not available for search or preview. If the painting hasn't been written about it's sometimes hard to find it in the literature, but I'll spend a bit more time on it tomorrow. It's interesting! Thanks for stopping by & lucky you for seeing such a nice painting during a museum visit! Victoria (tk) 21:50, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm now interested in this topic. Anyway came across this description of the topic w/ pics from the Groeningemuseum. I wonder whether they'd know? Victoria (tk) 23:55, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- The Calais pic is here - I see he is only one of five possible painters given. I did Mass of Saint Gregory many years ago. Johnbod (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes this is it, now I will come back to the museum to take a decent picture of it and post it on commons so it is at least available should it be discussed somewhere, possibly at least mentioned as tentatively attributed to him. In addition, Calais' museum is said to have held two further Memling, one of which went missing during the war but the other is purportedly still in the museum, possibly in the archives?, it is said to represent Jesus' presentation in the temple.Iry-Hor (talk) 06:22, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- The Calais pic is here - I see he is only one of five possible painters given. I did Mass of Saint Gregory many years ago. Johnbod (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well it does resemble the central part of the triptych you refer to but is not this one. The Christ figure is very much similar but the priest isn't the same and the rest is also different. I will go back and take a photograph. The Museum is the Musée des Beaux Arts, Calais see the museum website, the only place on the web where they mention what I saw is this website here where they just state that the museum holds a La messe de Saint-Grégoire by Hans Memling. I cannot find the piece on google image and the museum is rather small, mostly holding contemporary sculpture. I must say I am still a bit shaken by the unexpected beauty of the piece in an unexpected place.Iry-Hor (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Iry-Hor, that's interesting and exciting! Yes, knowing the name of the town and art museum helps. From a quick cursory search I'm wondering if it's this triptych described here, or perhaps a separated panel from that triptych, based on the dimensions. Will keep digging. Tks JB for the link to Joconde; I didn't know about that. Helpful. Victoria (tk) 14:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Break
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1. Met
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2. Campin
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3. Groningen
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4. Cluny
This is above my pay grade, but the painting in the book above (plate on next page) was in the Exposition des primitifs flamands à Bruges and appears to be in the Met now, attributed to the Master of the Saint Catherine Legend.[1] And we have the image (above 1). The exhibition also had a version by or after Campin (now in Brussels, above 2). We also have an image of the Groningen one, and a similar triptych at Cluny.[2] See above, 3 and 4, which look to be influenced heavily by Campin (look at the arch, and Christ's legs). They seem a bit, well, primitive, for Memling. But they have the vision in a golden "speech bubble" like the one in Calais. Attribution is largely guesswork, isn't it. Theramin (talk) 23:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Theramin! I was looking at these the other day - some are on Johnbod's Mass of Saint Gregory. I like the one in the Met, but I like some of the Master of the Saint Catherine Legend's work. Speech bubble is interesting. Thanks also to Johnbod for finding the Calais pic. That's quite different than the first one I linked above. Victoria (tk) 19:38, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
- I think it is still interesting to get a proper wikicommons picture of the Calais one, right ? I will try to go back soon to get a picture and talk to the curator (also about the second painting of the presentation at the temple). Iry-Hor (talk) 18:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
- "Speech bubble" is probably the wrong word, Victoria - um, inset scene? (In the ones above, it could almost be that a reredos or retable has sprung to life.)
Yes, please do get an image if you can, Iry-Hor. Theramin (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Break2
Theramin, Johnbod, Victoriaearle, here are some of the picture I took when back at the Museum (click on them, they are actually pretty large). I really apologize for the poor lightening, I could not use flashlight and the day light was poorly oriented with respect to the paintings (I have many alternative pictures, if you think quality is not sufficient enough I can upload others). I took several photos of details from the Mass of St Gregory (in real life you can see a lot on the painting, e.g. the city landscape visible at the centre of the painting through the Church doors; barely visible silver letters(?) on the top of the green velvet above the praying woman; amazing altar crucifixion picture and more). The painting is attributed to either Hans Memling or Gerard Horenbout at the Museum. I also took a picture of the "Presentation at the Temple", by Memling or Cornelis Engebrechtsz.. Finally, there was a very small painting by "Peter Neefs" although it was not clear if they meant Pieter Neefs the Elder or Hendrik van Steenwijk I or Hendrik van Steenwijk II (although I am not sure).
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The Mass of St Gregory, Flemish Renaissance period, oil on wood, amazing details; I have alternative pics.
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Mass of St Gregory, detail of Jesus and angels
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Mass of St Gregory, detail of the altar. In real life details can be seen on the host (a T cross) and the alter cloth is inscribed with "C'ES" (beginning of "c'est" i.e. "it is" in French ?)
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Mass of St Gregory, detail of the praying woman (a French queen/nobility depicted in a Marian way?)
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Presentation at the temple
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Inside of a Church, "Peter Neefs"
These photos probably need to be cropped/centered and/or the color balance could be adjusted. I am no expert on this really, I hope someone knowledgeable could improve the pictures.
- These are fascinating Iry-Hor. Thanks for the images and for posting here. I've tried taking pictures in museum and haven't been all the successful myself, nor am I much good at readjusting the color balances. But they're here and when I get beyond a Wiki sabbatical might take a go at it. The attribution is really hard without sources, and Dirk De Vos is expert on Memling but I don't have access to any of his books. The Craquelure is interesting to see. I wonder whether Fram knows anything more about these? Victoria (tk) 23:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I will try to see if I can make something with the picture to enhance them. Unfortunately it seems the painting is in need of restoration and I don't think one is coming any time soon. As I mentioned some of the details are disappearing, in particular the silver gothic lettering/textile ornament(?) on the top of the green velvet alcove and the urban landscape through the church door. This is also true of the faces of the people at the back of the attendance near the church door. About the de Vos ref, I can see around if I can locate it. Be it a Memling or an Horenbout, I still think this is a masterpiece. The impression of higher quality of this work is especially strong in real life and even more so when surrounded by lesser quality pieces (the museum has very good art, especially more recent one but to me this stands out).Iry-Hor (talk) 08:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- EDIT: The coat of arms of the lady says a lot, I am fairly sure it can be identified and the identity of the lady as well. The coat looks like Mary of Burgundy's coat of arms prior to 1477, at the time Memling was in Flanders while Horenbout, born in 1465 was too young to be the author. Mary died in 1482, one could possibly imagine the painting being made around the time of her death as well although her coat of arms then had changed quite a lot. But even in 1482 Horenbout would have been too young I believe to be the author. The museum description did not state who the painter is but writes "Gerard Horenbout (old attribution)" as if this attribution was not a current one. I think it rather that the author, if not Memling, ought to be someone of the second half of the 15th century rather than early 16th, notably the dress and headdress styles of the lady would have looked really old fashioned for the court of say Francis I of France (c. 1520).Iry-Hor (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Great to have it. On the arms, it appears to be Burgundy (sinister, around the time of Philip the Good and Charles the Bold) impaled with Cleves-Mark (dexter: the escarbuncle of the Duchy of Cleves in the first and last quarters is quite distinctive, and the other quarters are the fess chequy of the County of Mark) . So might that be Anna of Burgundy (c.1435-1508), one of the many illegitimate children of Philip the not-so-Good (not to be confused with her relation Anne of Cleves (1515-1557), or with Anne of Burgundy (1404-1438), but why is our article at Anna van Bourgondië?) after she married Adolph of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein (1425-1492); it was second marriages for each of them - an illegitimate daughter and a younger son. Perhaps the kneeling man behind her could be her husband? Theramin (talk) 00:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Theramin Wow brilliant thanks ! You are quite right the coat of arms with the chequerboard I couldn't find whence it originated but you really nailed it, this is absolutely perfect. The arms of Adolph of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein are absolutely recognisable now that you have identified them ! This implies the painting was made after 1470 and I guess probably prior to Anne's death in 1508, I wish we could be more specific. From what the wiki article says Anne lived in her palace in Bruges. Incidentally, Memling was precisely in Bruges at the time, until his death in 1494. Horenbout was in Ghent at the time, starting his career in 1487 but it took him until 1498 to get his first apprentice and he became court painter only in 1515. Joos van Cleve, also suggested as a possible author is even later: he started his training in 1505 and became independent in 1511. Finally, Master of Saint Giles was active in Paris c. 1500, hardly a good fit but who knows. Of course all of this is irrelevant since I am no expert.Iry-Hor (talk) 07:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- The style of the candles is exactly the same as on Adriaen Isenbrandt's mass of St. Gregory visible here:
Isenbrandt established himself in Bruges in 1510, slightly too late but this might confirm the origin of the painting as Bruges, maybe some artist from the local guild of St Luke is the author, perhaps an apprentice in a workshop?Iry-Hor (talk) 09:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Attributions to Adriaen Isenbrandt (and his workshop) are pretty notional, since no surviving work can clearly be attributed to him. The only large altarpiece to survive the Beeldenstorm of the 1560s was destroyed by bombing in 1942. Johnbod (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- So I have access to Alfred Michiels's book "Hans Memling" and there is no Mass of St Gregory in it (although the book does not claim to be a complete list of works, it looks like it). Whoever wants the book I can send you the pdf by the way. My best guess is that the Calais painting is a late 15th century piece made for Anne de Burgundy in Bruges by someone fron the painter's guild.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Iry-Hor, here's a link to Dirk de Vos. It's very pricy and difficult to find in a library where I live. I might ask for the pdf of the Michiels but not at this moment. Also, well spotted with the similarity in the candle motif to Isenbrant. Yes, the woman's cloak struck me too. Theramin, just wow! I didn't know about that woman at all (or her husband). Very intriguing. Here's a link to an interesting pdf on Jstor about Isenbrandt, JSTOR 42711486. He did do a Mass of St Gregory, but it's in the Prado. One thing to consider is that all of these painters had workshops often producing multiple panels based on the workshop master's original. So that's a possiblity too, maybe. Best thread ever to show up on my user page. Victoria (tk) 16:01, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Adding: the angels make me think of Memling, i.e see File:Memling - Adoration of the Magi Triptych.jpg, the angels on the left panel wear different colored robes and have brightly colored wings; the bed with its bedsack also makes me think of Memling, i.e see the bed in the Annunciation (Memling). The rest makes me think of Isenbrandt. But as a whole its really hard to tell. Victoria (tk) 18:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think Isenbrandt is too late for the painting since Anne died in 1508 and he arrived in Bruges only in 1510. We could possible conjecture that the painting was made after 1492 because of the possible depiction of Anne's husband behind the veil, which may be a suggestion that he had already died by the time the painting had been done. As in a number of private portrait from the time period, the death of some of the depicted people are suggested indirectly (e.g. with the presence of extinguished candles on the side of the deceased in some of van Eyck portraits). That the painting was made on order of a wealthy person is manifest in the very peculiar spatial organisation of the painting: the sideways perspective with the pope and attendant all crowded up on the left hand side is unique in a Mass of St Gregory and seems to be made solely in order to free up space on the right hand side for the praying woman, as if she were present during that mass. To me this strongly suggests she commissioned the painting and indeed, it is known that Anne was (one of) the wealthiest patron of the arts in Bruges up unto 1505 or 1508. Now observe that Isenbrandt, whose candles and perspective on the mass are so similar, "quickly established an important workshop, probably in the Korte Vlaminckstraat in Bruges. This was close to the workshop of Gerard David, at the Vlamijncbrugghe and the former workshop of Hans Memling. Bruges, at that time, was one of the richest towns in Europe. Rich traders and merchants ordered diptychs and portraits for personal use. Isenbrandt painted mainly for private clients". Perhaps the painting was one of Memling's last few or one by David, and I would say it likely originates from one of their workshops in the last decade of the 15th century. It was made and composed in a style that was to directly influence Isenbrandt in his early career some 10 years later. Again I am wildly into original opinion here and do not claim to write anything in wikipedia on this but I would like to have the opinion of a real expert. Perhaps I could contact one?Iry-Hor (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Adding: the angels make me think of Memling, i.e see File:Memling - Adoration of the Magi Triptych.jpg, the angels on the left panel wear different colored robes and have brightly colored wings; the bed with its bedsack also makes me think of Memling, i.e see the bed in the Annunciation (Memling). The rest makes me think of Isenbrandt. But as a whole its really hard to tell. Victoria (tk) 18:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Iry-Hor, here's a link to Dirk de Vos. It's very pricy and difficult to find in a library where I live. I might ask for the pdf of the Michiels but not at this moment. Also, well spotted with the similarity in the candle motif to Isenbrant. Yes, the woman's cloak struck me too. Theramin, just wow! I didn't know about that woman at all (or her husband). Very intriguing. Here's a link to an interesting pdf on Jstor about Isenbrandt, JSTOR 42711486. He did do a Mass of St Gregory, but it's in the Prado. One thing to consider is that all of these painters had workshops often producing multiple panels based on the workshop master's original. So that's a possiblity too, maybe. Best thread ever to show up on my user page. Victoria (tk) 16:01, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- So I have access to Alfred Michiels's book "Hans Memling" and there is no Mass of St Gregory in it (although the book does not claim to be a complete list of works, it looks like it). Whoever wants the book I can send you the pdf by the way. My best guess is that the Calais painting is a late 15th century piece made for Anne de Burgundy in Bruges by someone fron the painter's guild.Iry-Hor (talk) 12:37, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
Yes, it's definitely a Donor portrait - there are some Memlings on that page. Most of the painters in Bruges during this period were producing for local wealthy buyers, though Memling has a reputation of going a bit farther afield and taking commissions from Italy (i.e the Pagagnotti Triptych). Off the top of my head, aside from de Vos, Till-Holger Borchert is doing quite a bit scholarship in the area and would be knowledgable if you're interested in contacting an expert. Victoria (tk) 20:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
Your thoughts
Hi Victoria, hope you're feeling better. I've been sick for a couple of years, but now on the right diet and medication and feeling much better, and I'm trying to figure out what to do with my new-found energy. The last time you and I spoke, I handled myself badly, and I regret that. I've been writing mostly about plants over at FLC, and if you'd like to collaborate, that would be great, or we could work on one of your projects. You and I have so many wiki-friends in common that I'd rather not have tension between us, if that's possible. - Dank (push to talk) 20:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Dank! Thanks for the note. I have no memory of you handeling yourself badly, but whatever it was I'm certain I was probably cranky and not handling myself well. These years'-long illnesses are difficult to deal with and these days I rarely post unless I'm feeling well - I happened to be lurking earlier today when Sandy pinged me about a source, so here I for a bit. Generally my policy now is to stay very very quiet unless I'm temporarily well enough to avoid crankiness. Thrilled to hear that you have energy - that's an excellent sign! I'm always happy to collaborate when I'm here but haven't created much in the way of content in quite some time. That said, I'll let you know when I'm around. Be well and thanks for stopping by. Victoria (tk) 21:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, please do let me know, and glad to see you're still in and out. - Dank (push to talk) 21:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Peace be on you!
Somewhere out there, you're in someone's thoughts and prayers. So smile your precious smile. ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 22:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)