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"You can also switch back to the legacy experience."
This part of the "A new way to start topics is here" note doesn't actually permanently stick. It just gives you the old style for that particular edit. Please add a link to instructions on how to permanently opt out of the reply tool, or back into the "legacy experience". CapnZapp (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify: while I know how to uncheck the various check boxes in my Preferences, the above help message isn't truly helpful since it doesn't say a word about these check boxes existence. The current experience can easily misled an editor into believing its only possible to enjoy the "legacy experience" by each time clicking that link, always defaulting to the new reply mode. This is easily fixed by merely inserting a link to some help page on the edit tab of Preferences. CapnZapp (talk) 10:14, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- There is actually a link to preferences in the second note, which is shown after you click "switch back to the legacy experience". It seems there's no way to show it if you've already dismissed the message, so for everyone's reference, the message used in this case is MediaWiki:Discussiontools-newtopic-legacy-hint-return and the $2 link points to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion. Matma Rex talk 03:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
new Reply Tool incompatible with certain templates
The new Reply Tool invisibly inserts indentation colons to match the indentation of the post you're replying to.
That sounds reasonable, but not enough care has been taken to not break certain templates.
For instance the {{cob}}
template breaks if not placed first on its own line. There can't be any colons before it.
Let me show you. Note how you won't be able to read what's AFTER the collapse box, such as my signature. The template breaks, and you'll find it inside the collapsed content. It will appear correctly if you make sure to not add the indentation colons to any line where such a template exists.
Extended content
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Edit: I removed the colon since it doesn't just break this talk section, it breaks the remainder of the page. CapnZapp (talk) 10:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I've amended the documentation and provided a rough workaround, but really, these things needs to be intelligently handled by your code. CapnZapp (talk) 10:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- This is easy to explain: the underlying code of
{{cob}}
iswhich boils down to<includeonly>|}</div></includeonly><noinclude> {{Documentation|Template:Collapse top/doc}} <!-- PLEASE ADD THIS TEMPLATE'S CATEGORIES AND INTERWIKIS TO THE /doc SUBPAGE, THANKS --> </noinclude>
- it begins with the two characters|}</div>
|}
, documented at H:BTM as the marker to end a table. The BTM page also explicitly statesAll this markup must start on a new line
. At Help:Table#Indenting tables we also findDo not attempt to use colons for indentation anywhere within the rest of the table code (not even at the beginning of a line), as that will prevent the MediaWiki software from correctly reading the code for the table.
--Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC) - @CapnZapp The only feasible way to "handle" arbitrary templates would be to disallow using them entirely, and we did not want to do that (I'm one of the developers). They are disallowed if you're using the visual mode of the reply tool, though. We do not have the resources to review every possible template in every one of 800+ Wikimedia projects and figure out whether and how it can be used in indented discussion comments. We decided to just let each user figure it out on a case-by-case basis.
- Basically, our thinking was:
- New users will prefer using the visual mode anyway, where templates mostly can't be added
- Established users, who are more likely to use the source mode, will use the preview to check whether their templates display as expected
- If they notice things don't display as expected, they can always use the full wikitext editor to leave their comment
- It is unfortunate that this doesn't work very well with the collapsed templates (since you can only notice the unexpected behavior if you expand it), but I think we have to live with this
- The decisions around this were made in task T247421 and related tasks, if you're interested in the historical rationale. Matma Rex talk 02:53, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
We decided to just let each user figure it out on a case-by-case basis.
What, with zero documentation or guidance?? That must be one of the clearest example of dismissive and lazy engineer attitude I've seen recently. Hint: if you don't "got the resources", then how about not breaking it and then walking away for others to pick up the pieces of a mess you created. I clearly won't get anything useful out of this discussion, if your attitude is representative of your whole team :-( :-( :-( CapnZapp (talk) 11:01, 29 December 2022 (UTC)- Isn't trial and error how we all learned to edit in the first place? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- Redrose64 Thanks. However, an explanation is not a solution. CapnZapp (talk) 11:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- This behavior appears to be a known limitation of the Discussion Tools. Comments exist in the following phabricator tickets: T243047, T247421, T253667, and T241388. The developers have repeatedly stated that multi-line templates and tables do not work with the Reply Tool, just as they do not typically work with manually inserted colons. Block templates and tables often do not work correctly, or generate syntax errors, or both, when they are preceded by colons. That is not the fault of the reply tool. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
also hat/hab
To test further, I have to create a whole new section to see if the previous colon breaks the entire talk page.
This time, I'm seeing how Reply Tool would work with Hidden archive top:
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Collapsed discussions |
Yep, adding a colon before the {{hab}}
breaks it.
My signature: CapnZapp (talk) 10:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- The explanation is the same as for
{{cob}}
, except that the underlying code of{{hab}}
is simpler:which boils down to|}<noinclude> {{documentation}} <!-- Add categories and interwikis to the /doc subpage, not here! --> </noinclude>
You will find the same effects with any similar template that wraps a portion of a page inside a table. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 22:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)|}
- Yes...? And? What I mean is, is the team really content adding a new reply tool without in any way shape or form addressing the bugs, or even updating the relevant documentation?? (If you're not on this team, Redrose64: I'm not directing my consternation and bafflement at you) CapnZapp (talk) 11:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, I'm not on the team. I'm merely somebody who occasionally attempts to explain other people's markup problems, often caused by not reading the template documentation - in this case, the doc has included a warning for the last ten months. As with any other script-assisted edit, use of the reply tool does not absolve you from responsibility: any undesirable effects of saving your edit are primarily your burden to sort out. We have the WP:PREVIEW feature for a good reason. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 23:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry Redrose64 but "the doc has included a warning for the last ten months" and "As with any other script-assisted edit, use of the reply tool does not absolve you from responsibility" I call bullshit. The warning does not in any way explain that using ReplyTool will - without asking you - insert colons, thus ruining your template usage. The ReplyTool does not indicate those colons it will insert. And please don't equate using ReplyTool with installing and using scripts. One is foisted upon everyone without you doing anything, the other represents a certain degree of technical confidence, not to mention initiative. The situations are completely dissimilar. Had ReplyTool been something only technical people would install, and only by their own volition, your point would be valid. But it isn't. You're effectively telling new editors its their fault they don't understand how ReplyTool and these templates interact, and I don't think you should do that. The obvious standpoint to take is instead to realize that while you might not be able to introduce new tools to the general public without unintended sideeffects, when and if you find them, fix them instead of just shrugging ("the incompetents can just suffer"). At the very least, you'd expect the team to update the documentation of any problematic template. To take responsibility for their change. It's the addition of ReplyTool that is the cause here. CapnZapp (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- No, I'm not on the team. I'm merely somebody who occasionally attempts to explain other people's markup problems, often caused by not reading the template documentation - in this case, the doc has included a warning for the last ten months. As with any other script-assisted edit, use of the reply tool does not absolve you from responsibility: any undesirable effects of saving your edit are primarily your burden to sort out. We have the WP:PREVIEW feature for a good reason. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 23:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yes...? And? What I mean is, is the team really content adding a new reply tool without in any way shape or form addressing the bugs, or even updating the relevant documentation?? (If you're not on this team, Redrose64: I'm not directing my consternation and bafflement at you) CapnZapp (talk) 11:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Why can’t I preview when I use reply?
It’s a huge nuisance, esp when pinging. Doug Weller talk 18:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Isn't there a preview tab that you can switch to in the corner? Haven't used the tool in a long time but I remember it being in either the top-right or bottom-right. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:01, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t see it. Doug Weller talk 20:09, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like they've changed it to switch between visual and source editor mode in the top-right corner. Looks like it works fine for me, and pinging with the tool is simple now that pressing @ brings up an immediate list of people in the conversation. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- No, it doesn’t bring up a complete list. I might have been missing the preview in source but if you use source you don’t get any list of people , if you use visual and try to add templates they are messed up with nowikis. Doug Weller talk 21:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller for reply-tool: if you are in "Visual" mode it should be WYSIWYG - thus no preview, if you change to Source mode the preview should appear under the input box. — xaosflux Talk 23:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux Yes, but then I need to switch back and forth if I want to reply to a particular person and then add, say, a CT template and preview. Still, so long as I remember. Doug Weller talk 08:17, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- Forgot - on my iPad I have to scroll to see the preview, it's hidden. Doug Weller talk 08:17, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux I just discovered that if the @ symbol doesn't show the name of the person I want to reply to I can just start typing the name. Wish I'd known that before. I presume it's documented. Doug Weller talk 08:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- You can also just add a normal link, since the link tool also searches for page names. The main advantage to the @-mention feature is that it begins by offering the names of people who have previously commented in the same ==Section==. The link (click the links-in-a-chain icon, or ⌘ Command+k, or in the visual mode, start typing the wikitext for an internal link, and you'll get a normal link search box, which will search for any page in any namespace. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks. But I'm not sure what the links-in-a-chain icon is, or "command" - is that "Ctrl"? Doug Weller talk 08:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Whatamidoing (WMF) is referring to the
in the Reply tool box. If you're using a Windows computer the command you're looking for is Ctrl+K. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm an idiot, of course. But I was confused by the "or, in the visual mode" and thought the chain etc was meant to be in source mode. Thanks. I've learned a lot about the two modes. Now if I can just be careful when trying to be in the right mode to avoid all the nowikis I get in the wrong mode, I've no idea why they are added and how that's a good thing. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- Templates are disabled because if you stick an infobox or a table in the visual mode, it will produce a serious mess. Imagine a comment that means to talk about a template, but what you see is something like
- {{infobox thing
- | name=WhatamIdoing
- | location= English Wikipedia
- ...and so forth, all the way down the page. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- That would be a good thing to avoid! Thanks. Doug Weller talk 13:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- The devs have talked about a new bit of wikitext syntax that could solve this problem. It would also make it possible to have multiple paragraphs in a list (e.g., in the votes at RFA) or to add an image in the middle of a list without having to fiddle with the list formatting. You'd just start normally, e.g.,
* '''Support'''
and when you decided that you were doing something odd, you'd add some sort of new wikitext code (e.g.,<<<
) around it. It's a bit of work, and of course there'd be the usual confusion ("What's all this stuff in my diff?!"), but I think it would be a good idea. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- The devs have talked about a new bit of wikitext syntax that could solve this problem. It would also make it possible to have multiple paragraphs in a list (e.g., in the votes at RFA) or to add an image in the middle of a list without having to fiddle with the list formatting. You'd just start normally, e.g.,
- That would be a good thing to avoid! Thanks. Doug Weller talk 13:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm an idiot, of course. But I was confused by the "or, in the visual mode" and thought the chain etc was meant to be in source mode. Thanks. I've learned a lot about the two modes. Now if I can just be careful when trying to be in the right mode to avoid all the nowikis I get in the wrong mode, I've no idea why they are added and how that's a good thing. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 08:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller: Whatamidoing (WMF) is referring to the
- Thanks. But I'm not sure what the links-in-a-chain icon is, or "command" - is that "Ctrl"? Doug Weller talk 08:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- You can also just add a normal link, since the link tool also searches for page names. The main advantage to the @-mention feature is that it begins by offering the names of people who have previously commented in the same ==Section==. The link (click the links-in-a-chain icon, or ⌘ Command+k, or in the visual mode, start typing the wikitext for an internal link, and you'll get a normal link search box, which will search for any page in any namespace. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 04:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux I just discovered that if the @ symbol doesn't show the name of the person I want to reply to I can just start typing the name. Wish I'd known that before. I presume it's documented. Doug Weller talk 08:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- Forgot - on my iPad I have to scroll to see the preview, it's hidden. Doug Weller talk 08:17, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux Yes, but then I need to switch back and forth if I want to reply to a particular person and then add, say, a CT template and preview. Still, so long as I remember. Doug Weller talk 08:17, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like they've changed it to switch between visual and source editor mode in the top-right corner. Looks like it works fine for me, and pinging with the tool is simple now that pressing @ brings up an immediate list of people in the conversation. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t see it. Doug Weller talk 20:09, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Should a user talk page that has been blanked then get the message a brand new editor gets?
It makes it appear that the talk page has never been edited. Doug Weller talk 13:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- A user-talk page that has been blanked exists, easily distinguishing it from a page that was never created and is a redlink. — xaosflux Talk 14:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- There are half a dozen messages (see the list), but none of them vary by experience level.
- As this wiki doesn't do automated welcome messages, the first message on someone's talk page may happen when they are relatively experienced. I received my first talk page message when I'd made nearly 100 edits, months after I created my account. Just last week, I created the page for someone who's account is ten years old. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- The is the one I've seen after a user has blanked their talk page is "Start a talk page with Newbie1". But I didn't check to see if they'd added it, so we can drop this discussion until and if I see it again, thanks. Doug Weller talk 12:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
"Page frame" added to the Beta Feature on Tuesday
The next change to the Beta Feature for DiscussionTools is scheduled for tomorrow. This is part of the mw:Talk pages project/Usability work.
Everyone with the Beta Feature enabled will see a small change to the top of the page, to add information about the most recent comment. If you're using the new Vector 2022, this will also change the new Table of Contents (to add a count of how many comments are in each section).
I think this is the penultimate update to the Beta Feature before general deployments can begin. They're still working on an extra "Add topic" button, so it won't be necessary to scroll all the way back up to the top to find that button.
There are screenshots in Vector 2022 in the linked Phab task. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
Editing news 2023 #1
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this newsletter
This newsletter includes two key updates about the Editing team's work:
- The Editing team will finish adding new features to the Talk pages project and deploy it.
- They are beginning a new project, Edit check.
Talk pages project
The Editing team is nearly finished with this first phase of the Talk pages project. Nearly all new features are available now in the Beta Feature for Discussion tools.
It will show information about how active a discussion is, such as the date of the most recent comment. There will soon be a new "Add topic" button. You will be able to turn them off at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing-discussion. Please tell them what you think.
An A/B test for Discussion tools on the mobile site has finished. Editors were more successful with Discussion tools. The Editing team is enabling these features for all editors on the mobile site.
New Project: Edit Check
The Editing team is beginning a project to help new editors of Wikipedia. It will help people identify some problems before they click "Publish changes". The first tool will encourage people to add references when they add new content. Please watch that page for more information. You can join a conference call on 3 March 2023 to learn more.
–Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- Re.
The Editing team is nearly finished with this first phase of the Talk pages project. . . . beginning a project to help new editors of Wikipedia.
Does that mean Reply Tool enhancements like adjust-indent and add-bullet are off the table for the foreseeable future? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 18:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Mobile DiscussionTools Deployment
Hi y'all – two questions about mobile talk pages:
1. What – if anything – concerns you about the suite of mobile DiscussionTools being made available for everyone (logged in and out) by default at en.wiki during the week beginning on 6 March 2023?
2. What other page(s) do you think would be useful for us to pose the question above on? One thought: WP:VPT.
I'm asking the above with the following in mind:
- 9 February 2023: the Editing Team learned through an A/B test, that mobile DiscussionTools cause: people to publish more edits, people to be more likely to publish the edits they start, and more unique people to publish ≥ 1 talk page edit. Read the full report.
- 15 February 2023: in response to the results of this A/B test, the suite of mobile DiscussionTools became available to everyone (logged in and out) by default at all Wikimedia wikis (except en.wiki).
Please let me know if you'd value any more context as you think through the question I posed above.
In the meantime, you can see and try the mobile DiscussionTools by appending ?dtenable=1
to the URL of any en.wiki talk page. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Talk_pages_project&dtenable=1.
Note: I'm going to ping some people who have been active on this page over the course of the Talk pages project: @Xaosflux, @Thryduulf, @Doug Weller, @Qwerfjkl, @Sdkb, @Isaacl, @Pelagic, @Enterprisey, @CapnZapp, @Redrose64, @DannyS712, @George Ho, @ProcrastinatingReader, @Blaze Wolf, @Jonesey95, @Nosebagbear, and @Levivich . PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have any concerns in my brief testing of it just now. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 00:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Noted. Thank you for having a look, @Blaze Wolf. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Bug? There is a "floating" "Add topic" button on the page, but if you try to scroll down to it, it disappears and only reappears when you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page. Without dtenable, this is a fixed button at the top of the page. — xaosflux Talk 00:09, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- hi @Xaosflux – the "floating" (that's what we've been calling it too) "Add topic" button not reappearing until you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page does seem like a bug.
- Would you be able to share a screen recording of what you're experiencing?
- For reference, the "Add topic" button should reappear as soon as you start scrolling "upwards."
- You can see how we designed this to function in the "Mockup(s)" section of phab:T316175. And here is how the experience is currently working for me (Browser: Chrome; OS: iOS 16.2): https://youtube.com/shorts/fEkv_qw3Xlk?feature=share. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- @PPelberg (WMF) I can't record right now. It does disappear until you are almost at the bottom of the page, however it does refloat if you scroll back up prior to the bottom. — xaosflux Talk 00:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- If not already, you should notify WP:VPT (ask them to join this discussion). — xaosflux Talk 00:11, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Good call;
done. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 00:44, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Good call;
- I don’t see any obstacles. Will post back if I stumble on something. Curious about performance on old devices or slow connections; I imagine those kind of issues, if any, would have surfaced on non-en wikis already? I notice it’s working in the mobile overlay without needing to tap "read as wiki page" first! (I’m doing that right now.) Have you settled on what the mobile DT preferences will be like? ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 03:36, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
I don’t see any obstacles. Will post back if I stumble on something.
- Sounds great and thank you for reviewing the mobile features and following up with what you noticed, @Pelagic.
Curious about performance on old devices or slow connections; I imagine those kind of issues, if any, would have surfaced on non-en wikis already?
- I'm glad you asked this. We've made a similar assumption to the one you have above and I'm going to follow up with you here once I've had a chance to talk with the team about the specific safeguards we've put in to make sure mobile DiscussionTools perform well for people using them on older devices and slower connections.
Have you settled on what the mobile DT preferences will be like?
- For the time being, we've decided NOT to implement a separate preference that would enable people to configure whether mobile DT are available or not.
- Tho, you asking this question leads me to wonder: what – if anything – concerns you about there not being a mobile-specific DiscussionTools preference? PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 01:06, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
- Now that logged-in mobile users can actually navigate from Special:MobileOptions to Special:Preferences, I imagine it should be ok to have the DT prefs apply to both mobile and desktop equally.
- Not-logged-in people, as usual, get no choice. And they don't get any forewarning unless you run a great big banner. The saving grace is they are less likely to care about talk page appearance than about Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Rollback of Vector 2022. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 17:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
I imagine it should be ok to have the DT prefs apply to both mobile and desktop equally.
- @Pelagic, a clarification about the above...
- The DT-related preferences only apply desktop. Said another way: there is not currently a way for people to decide whether DT are turned on or off on mobile.
- We made this choice with the following thinking in mind:
- There not being a way for people to specify that the mobile talk page's "Read as wiki page" view being shown by default is consistent with the way mobile talk pages are currently configured.
- For people who prefer not to use DiscussionTools on mobile talk pages, the new mobile DiscussionTools version of talk pages include two – what we assume to be – convenient/easy ways to for doing so:
- Tapping the edit pencils that are shown alongside each talk page section. Note: the current mobile talk page experience does not offer section edit links/pencils
- Tapping the "Read as wiki page" link that appears at the bottom of every talk page
- PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to follow up with you here once I've had a chance to talk with the team about the specific safeguards we've put in to make sure mobile DiscussionTools perform well for people using them on older devices and slower connections.
- hi @Pelagic, a couple of updates about what the Editing Team has done to ensure the mobile Reply and New Topic Tools perform well for people using them on older devices and on slower connections...
- To ensure that people do NOT lose the comments and new topics they are in the midst of drafting/attempting to save when network connectivity is interrupted or otherwise slowed, we’ve recently switched to
localStorage
for all DiscussionTools-related autosaving which is a more robust/resilient approach than the previoussessionStorage
approach. This work happened in phab:T218663. - To ensure that the mobile Reply and New Topic Tools load as quickly as possible, we’ve: 1) designed both tools to load dynanically, without having to reload a new page and 2) we’ve invested in a series of performance improvements to mobile VE, which all editing-related DiscussionTools are built atop of.
- To ensure that people do NOT lose the comments and new topics they are in the midst of drafting/attempting to save when network connectivity is interrupted or otherwise slowed, we’ve recently switched to
- Please let me know if the above leaves any questions unanswered in your mind. PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, was passing through a dead spot when I hit the Reply button above. Crawling diagonal lines, then post submitted fine when signal returned to a few bars (3G not 4G), but the reply links went missing. All right after a page refresh. I wouldn’t class that as a mobile site problem, more of a client-scripting-with-poor-connection one. With the lined background, I wasn’t tempted to refresh too early. Reply tool seemed to cope pretty gracefully with the drop-out overall. 👍 ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 03:54, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
post submitted fine (…) but the reply links went missing
Thanks for catching that, it should be fixed by change 891980. Luckily this only affects thedtenable
trick we're using for testing, and will work correctly when the tools are enabled in the usual way, so this isn't a blocker to deployment. Matma Rex talk 22:15, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Based on what's surfaced in this conversation so far (see "Findings" below), the Editing Team is planning to move forward with offering the suite of mobile DiscussionTools as default-on features for everyone (logged in and out) at en.wiki on 8 March 2023 (Wednesday).
- What – if any – questions does this deployment plan bring to mind for you?
- Note: we'll be sharing the above on WP:VPT today or on Monday to let me know people know.
- Findings
- @Xaosflux might've uncovered an issue with how the new floating
Add topics
functions. Although, we have not yet been able to reproduce this issue nor have we seen reports of other people experiencing this issue. - @Pelagic: it seems the performance-related risks you named have been addressed by the investments the Editing Team has made and the reply links going missing will be resolved once DiscussionTools are made available by default
- @Jonesey95: the concerns you raised were related to desktop which is not within the scope of the mobile deployment we are discussing here. Even still, two of the four desktop issues you've raised should now be resolved (T325416 and T325104) and we're going to revisit the third (phab:T324807) and fourth (phab:T330952) before we consider offering the suite of usability improvements as default-on features (phab: T310959).
- @Xaosflux might've uncovered an issue with how the new floating
- PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 20:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Rant about desktop DiscussionTools (oops)
Since you asked: This is an edge case, but I have restored numbering to my Vector 2022 TOC (see T307316), and the unindented gray number next to the word "comments" below the numbered blue section links is confusing (to me). I have added CSS to indent the "X comments" text by 8px so that it does not look like a section header in my TOC. Also, T325416 should be fixed before deployment; it's pretty ugly. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Also, I think that you will get negative feedback about the size of the "Latest comment: ..." text (too large) and the inconsistency between the [edit] (section edit) link, the Subscribe link (large, not bold), and the reply link (small, superscripted, bold). You asked us about it in November 2022, and it looks like zero improvements have been made; why would deployment happen now? I do not understand the WMF's apparent obsession with asking for feedback on beta skins and tools, creating bug reports that do not get acted on, deploying the software in an unfinished state, and then taking verbal abuse from editors and giving the appearance of not knowing how to deploy reasonably-debugged software. Couldn't that cycle have a few steps removed from it? Also see T324807; it doesn't look like anything has been fixed in this melange of link styles. It looks junky. (Edited to add: OK, now I feel a little bit bad, because the question is about mobile tools, and I went off on a rant about what I am seeing in my desktop view in Vector 2022. I'm going to leave it in case anything is applicable to mobile, which I find unusable for many reasons.) – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
[...] in case anything is applicable to mobile
- I doubt it: https://imgur.com/a/soyo1aq — DVRTed (Talk) 06:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Based on that screen shot, it looks like the non-bold "Subscribe" button and the bold "Reply" button have not been made consistent. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- The "Subscribe" button with the bell icon is not meant to use bold. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- ...but now the designer is re-considering. Do you really want it to be bold/more noticeable? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- The "Subscribe" button with the bell icon is not meant to use bold. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Based on that screen shot, it looks like the non-bold "Subscribe" button and the bold "Reply" button have not been made consistent. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95, the "Latest comment" text is smaller than the body text on my screen. The "topic container" text is ~21px tall, and the text in the body of the comment is ~29px tall on my screen. Maybe try it in safemode, or a different web browser? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it could be something in the custom CSS that I set up to work around various Vector 2022 display bugs. I can't see the discussion tools features when logged out, since I don't have a way to enable the beta features. In safe mode while logged in, the "Latest comment" text still matches my screen shot above, as do the mismatched edit/subscribe/reply links. Feel free to copy my common.css file. If you can't replicate the problem, you could just follow the normal path and let editors figure it out after deployment. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:38, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- You should be able to see it on any page with the
?dtenable=1
trick. Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Talk_pages_project?dtenable=1#Rant_about_desktop_DiscussionTools_(oops) in a private/incognito window for this discussion. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC) - @Jonesey95 The "Latest comment: ..." text font size issue is filed as T325104 (only occurs if you customized font size in the browser), and I have a patch waiting for review that should fix it. We've been busy with some other things recently, but I'll ask someone to review again.
- For T325416 (space before the Reply button when it wraps to a new line), the obvious fix was impossible because it conflicts with the workaround for T260072 (incorrect behavior when using triple-click to select paragraph with reply links in Chrome), and I think that is the worse issue of the two. However, it looks the Chrome bug we were working around has been recently fixed, so we should be able to remove the workaround now. (It's fixed in Chrome 108; Chrome 107 and older are currently used by less than 2% of our editors, most of which on mobile where triple-clicking is probably rare.)
- Regarding the various inconsistencies in buttons and links: it's just my personal opinion, and I'm willing to defer to designers here, but I think their current state represent a tenuous compromise between WMF design guidelines (big icons on bold buttons) and Wikimedian "get off my lawn" energy (plain text on plain links). I think you might be the only person ever to ask us to make the buttons bigger and bolder (or perhaps you're just pulling my leg). I'd expect a change like that to be received about as well as the recent skin deployment.
- Thanks for the complaints. I appreciate them, and I trust you understand that we're trying to address them, but not everything can always be easily changed. Matma Rex talk 22:05, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Re buttons being bigger and bolder: I just want them to be consistent. If edit, subscribe, and reply were all the same size (body text size), non-bold, and vertically aligned with the elements around them, I think they would look fine. Right now, they are three different sizes and two different boldnesses.
- Re text size: Logged out, Brave browser 1.48.158, Mac OS 10.14.6, private window: "Last comment..." is 14px (".ext-discussiontools-visualenhancements-enabled .ext-discussiontools-init-section-bar" overriding "vector-body", I think); vector-body text is 13.125px (inspector shows "calc(1em * 0.875);"); "Subscribe" is 14px. "[edit]" is 13px. "Reply" is 13.125px. My Brave Preferences have the default font and font size set to Lucida Grande 15.
- Re complaints: I will keep complaining if it means that developers keep fixing things. I want Wikipedia to be a better web site. I know that easy problems are fixed quickly and that difficult problems have side effects and other challenges, including unreasonable humans like me who want things that don't make sense to other humans. So it goes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:20, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- (I discovered the concept of a Wicked problem recently, and I was so happy to find that there's a name for a certain type of complex, interlocking problem.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:05, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
- T325104 and T325416 will be fixed in the usual Thursday deployment this week. Matma Rex talk 20:38, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- You should be able to see it on any page with the
- Yes, it could be something in the custom CSS that I set up to work around various Vector 2022 display bugs. I can't see the discussion tools features when logged out, since I don't have a way to enable the beta features. In safe mode while logged in, the "Latest comment" text still matches my screen shot above, as do the mismatched edit/subscribe/reply links. Feel free to copy my common.css file. If you can't replicate the problem, you could just follow the normal path and let editors figure it out after deployment. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:38, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
New TP appearance and floating TOC (bug?)
I noticed on this page: in Vector 2022, when I have "Show discussion activity" enabled, the first section (currently "Wiki Education Foundation…") stays highlighted (bold black) when I scroll down the page to other sections. Tapping a ToC entry navigated to a section and caused the ToC item to change appearance, but the styling jumped back onto the first item when I started scrolling. When I disabled the preference, ToC returned to exhibiting the expected behaviour. Apologies for only posting here and not filing a Phab ticket. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 18:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
- There's a known issue where this occurs after posting a reply or new topic, until you refresh the page, filed as T316037. I hope that this is what happened (since you replied on this page just recently), and that it isn't some new issue; it'd be helpful if you could confirm that you don't see the problem if you re-enable that preference now and just view a page like this one. The Vector team recently worked on a fix for this, which should be included in this week's regular Thursday deployment! Matma Rex talk 22:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Add-topic button included in sticky header
Just now I added a topic using the button in the Vector 2022 floating/sticky header without having to scroll to top. Love the convenience of that! I only wish iOS would handle sticky elements reliably. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 20:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
- It's wonderful to hear you're finding value in the
Add Topic
being easier to "reach for" – thank you for stopping by to say as much, @Pelagic ^ _ ^ - And for anyone who might be wondering, "What is this "Add topic" they are talking about?" it's this (available when you have the Vector (2022) skin enabled): PPelberg (WMF) (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)