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RfC on changes to currency names
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do you favour the addition of the following text at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Currencies and monetary values, under the "Currency names" section?
- Option A: Currency names and symbols should not be changed unless there is consensus to the contrary.
- Option B: Currency names and symbols should not be changed unless there is consensus or reliable sources to the contrary.
- Option C: Currency names and symbols should not be changed unless there is consensus or reliable sources to the contrary. Widespread changes to currency names should have consensus before they are changed.
- Option D: (Status quo, add nothing)
NotReallySoroka (talk) 08:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Option C as proposer. I have been involved with an editor (TheCurrencyGuy) who performed mass changes involving currency names and symbols, and I wrote several RMs and RfCs to seek consensus before I reverted them. One such RfC, located at Talk:Ruble#Request for comment, has an emerging consensus that "ruble" v. "rouble" is "an engvar problem [which] should be solved according to our pre-existing rules regarding English variants. I propose broadening this notion to currency names and symbols. I added the section on widespread changes to counter a potential loophole where a person feels that mass changes because they (thought they) found a reliable source, when there could be other sources that used another orthography for the same currency. Thanks, NotReallySoroka (talk) 08:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- I intentionally based my wordings on the spirit of WP:RETAIN. NotReallySoroka (talk) 08:46, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- D because I'm sick and tired of people opening RfCs precipitously, with no attempt to work first with others to frame the issue, and in this case no indication whatsoever of what problem is being solved. EEng 14:40, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Option D. Where is the link to prior discussion? Why would new text be necessary? Where would it be placed? Why would we need to say that this sort of text, specifically, should not be changed without consensus or reliable sources? Why does this section have a generic header name? – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95: I propose adding "this sort of text" on currency nomenclature because TCG has done mass changes to them. NotReallySoroka (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. It is not a good idea to add to a guideline because of a single editor's misunderstanding or malfeasance. I suggest that you withdraw this RFC, now that you have gotten a sense of how it will end. Doing so will avoid wasting the time of editors at this page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95: But then editors' time is also wasted on en masse changes of currency spellings and notations sans consensus. I shouldn't have to start a single discussion on currency names and notations; conversely, TCG should have started a few RfC and RMs before they made their mass edits.
- It is what it is, though; I will snow close this RfC very soon in favour of D. Thank you for your participation in this RfC. NotReallySoroka (talk) 09:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. It is not a good idea to add to a guideline because of a single editor's misunderstanding or malfeasance. I suggest that you withdraw this RFC, now that you have gotten a sense of how it will end. Doing so will avoid wasting the time of editors at this page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jonesey95: I propose adding "this sort of text" on currency nomenclature because TCG has done mass changes to them. NotReallySoroka (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- D per EEng, and because Wikipedia policy and guidelines are already quite sufficient, and because no evidence has been presented that our use of currency names and symbols is in an exalted state of grace, and because this seems to be a totally superfluous attempt to shut down the work of an editor who has already been indefinitely blocked and rage-quit, and in amazement that this sudden RFC follows the proposer's creation of a "law" in project space Wikipedia:NotReallySoroka's Law, and per Jonesey95. NebY (talk) 15:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Completely agree, though in fairness it should be said that TCG wasted a lot of editor time pushing his intransigent ideas about currency names and so on, so I can understand the OP's desire to dampen such activity. But see, as always, WP:MOSBLOAT. EEng 15:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, even when they had consensus they ... well anyway, yes, WP:MOSBLOAT. NebY (talk) 16:38, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- @NebY: But then WP:TenPoundHammer's Law and WP:Shirt58's Law also exist, although they aren't subject to RfCs. I don't intend for my "law" to be more powerful than TPH's or Shirt's law barring consensus to the contrary. NotReallySoroka (talk) 21:50, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Completely agree, though in fairness it should be said that TCG wasted a lot of editor time pushing his intransigent ideas about currency names and so on, so I can understand the OP's desire to dampen such activity. But see, as always, WP:MOSBLOAT. EEng 15:45, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Option D: this is already covered by existing policy, as it would be if you substitute "currency names and symbols" for quite a lot of different things. This would be instruction creep and is a bad reaction to some concrete behavioural conduct issue. — Bilorv (talk) 19:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: I would probably snow-close in favour of D after my later replies have been replied to. Thanks, NotReallySoroka (talk) 21:53, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment (in my personal capacity): While I will soon snow this mess of an RfC in favour of D (no changes), I would like to state in a personal capacity that MOS:VAR and WP:RETAIN might be more generic guidelines regarding currency names; after all, currency notations are styles too. I should have based my contentions more on these two notions instead of bloating the MoS to right a wrong.
- Specifically, to NebY, I would like to argue that my attempt to revert TheCurrencyGuy's engvar changes should not be deemed "superfluous"; after all, 4000 edits call for desperate measures. Additionally, I also hope that you don't consider the "NRS law" as that big of a point of contention; as I stated, there are other on-wiki "laws" named after Wikipedians who have created them, and the fact that my "law" is an essays means that it isn't a policy or guideline that we need to follow.
- I will post a formal closing summary of this RfC very soon, as the consensus is so clear that "even an editor involved may close the discussion" in favour of D. Sincerely, NotReallySoroka (talk) 09:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
Decimals when quoting time periods?
There is a debate here about whether it's acceptable to use decimals when discussing a timeframe in a person's life, e.g. "he was a prisoner for 39.5 years". Personally I think this the sort of thing you'd expect to see in a science article, not a person's biography. However, the MOS here doesn't seem to cover this circumstance. Thoughts? Muzilon (talk) 09:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- To include the voices from that article's talk page: Dondervogel 2 (talk · contribs) and I agree that decimalized years in prose are a "normal practice in English" (the specific charge by Muzilon). I originally wrote the body to say
He was instead held prisoner in North Korea for 39.51 years
; Dondervogel 2 and I concur that rounding that to the tenth is better. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:41, 14 January 2023 (UTC)- You have not included all
the voices from that article's talk page
. To repeat (with a slight addition thus), expressing a period of time in a person's life in decimal years, and to the nearest 0.01 years at that, is not normal practice in English. The source's phrasing is common practice when wishing to add emphasis and drama, and the tone of that paragraph (and the entire report) is dramatic:For 39 years, six months and four days, he was trapped in a bizarre Stalinist state — hungry, suffering, told by the government how to live, what to read, and even when to have sex. Never before has an American lived among the secretive North Koreans so long and escaped to tell the tale.
We don't use such a tone in our encyclopedia, nor do we use phrasing which would be natural in speech ("thirty-nine and a half a years"), nor do we treat a period of someone's life as a measurement (unlike "completed in 39.51 seconds"). Instead, and especially in a brief summary such as a Wikipedia:LEAD as well as in the body of the article, "over 39 years" and "nearly 40 years" are both good English and both communicate quite enough to the reader without tripping them up. NebY (talk) 15:01, 14 January 2023 (UTC)- I am so sorry! In my quick look, I thought only myself, Muzilon, and Dondervogel 2 were participating. Hell, I even assumed Muzilon—in their zeal— was the original editor who'd changed the text: IACOBVS (talk · contribs). I promise that was unintentional. In the moment, I absolutely thought there were only three voices.
expressing a period of time in a person's life in decimal years, and to the nearest 0.01 years at that, is not normal practice in English.
As for that, I can't help but assume that you are the authority for "normal English", and that others' contradictory experiences are invalid.'over 39 years' and 'nearly 40 years' are both good English and both communicate quite enough to the reader without tripping them up.
Using the phrase "over 39 years" includes both 40 and 400 years, and suggests that the specific amount of time is actually unknown. Whose interpretation of "nearly 40 years" equals "six months less than"; could it be interpreted by readers to mean 38 years or 43 years (and again it suggests that the specific amount of time is actually unknown)? Also, I don't understand how one "trips up" a reader with specific decimalized years in prose; can you elaborate on that (is it related to MOS:ACCESS)? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:29, 14 January 2023 (UTC)I absolutely thought there were only three voices
? Really. Yesterday you replied to me, sayingMy admittedly-amateur-yet-extensive experience with "normal practice" in the English language doesn't jive with yours.
[1]- The ordinary reader is not going to understand "over 39 years" as 400 years, or nearly 40 as 38 or 43. You of course are free to try to misread it that way, but that's not who we write for.
- We trip the reader up when we phrase things in ways that the reader has to stop and decode. NebY (talk) 16:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with NebY, it is not normal to express periods in a person's life in decimal years. The only exception I can imagine is if one is doing some kind of calculation involving several such periods. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
Really.
Yeah, and I appreciate your continued assumption of good faith. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)- A cursory search of Wikipedia turns up sentences like:
- As I suggested in the original discussion, perhaps this is a feature of certain dialects of English (or languages other than English), but I'm not familiar with it. Much less using two decimal places for life events. Muzilon (talk) 22:36, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- You must be mistaken. Such uses would be abnormal English, would inappropriately treat a period of someone's life as a measurement, and would trip up anyone who tried to read it. If they're actually at these articles to be found by the public, should these three instances of vandalism be reported? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I wouldn't know what national variety of English you speak, but I note that at least one of those articles is written in Indian English. Maybe this usage is acceptable in some English dialects, but not in others. Muzilon (talk) 06:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- You must be mistaken. Such uses would be abnormal English, would inappropriately treat a period of someone's life as a measurement, and would trip up anyone who tried to read it. If they're actually at these articles to be found by the public, should these three instances of vandalism be reported? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I am so sorry! In my quick look, I thought only myself, Muzilon, and Dondervogel 2 were participating. Hell, I even assumed Muzilon—in their zeal— was the original editor who'd changed the text: IACOBVS (talk · contribs). I promise that was unintentional. In the moment, I absolutely thought there were only three voices.
- You have not included all
This conversation is becoming more and more bizarre. It is not even remotely unusual to express a period of someone's life as N.5 years, with N an integer. It is very easy to find multiple examples of this in mainstream news media such as BBC (647,000 hits for "2.5 years" alone) or CNN (683,000). Here's just one example, from the BBC, describing the periods 9.1 years, 1.5 years and 2.5 years. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 15:56, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
9.1 years, 1.5 years and 2.5 years
aren't continuous periods akin to39 years, six months and four days ... trapped in a bizarre Stalinist state
, they're total times spent watching TV, in the bathroom and cooking in some "average" life. NebY (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)- I don't see why the continuity matters. Still, it was just one example. It's not hard to find more:
- Children aged up to 2.5 years are assessed for healthy weight and nutrition during universal visits
- police officer Thomas Lane sentenced to 2.5 years in prison
- scam mastermind sentenced to 3.5 years
- Alexei Navalny sentenced to 3.5 years in prison
- Held by Somali Pirates for 4.5 years
- Rodrigo Rato gets 4.5 years for embezzlement
- it takes on average 6.5 years for men to receive a diagnosis and 8.8 years for women
- How many more do you need? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:44, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I suspect that those examples really ought to be 2+1⁄2 ({{frac|2|1|2}}) years and are only written as "2.5" to avoid using "2½". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- That works for 2+1⁄2 (and for 39+1⁄2 while we're at it), but I've never seen 9+1⁄10 years or 8+4⁄5 years. That would be weird. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly. All except the last examples above are "... and a half". It would also be sensible for "... and a quarter". (2+1⁄4 for example.) Anything else should normally be expressed in with months/weeks/days and reserve the decimals only for mathematical and statistical use. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Martin of Sheffield: All of the examples are "... and a half" ... except for the ones that are not (9.1 years, 8.8 years). How would you write those? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oops, yes I did miss the 8.8 years, I just saw the 6.5 years for men (the 9.1 wasn't on your list though). Your last example is noticably different from the preceding six. They are all fixed preriods of time whereas the seventh is the result of a statistical calculation. You might note the phrase "and reserve the decimals only for mathematical and statistical use" above. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- In that case I think you and I agree. In the original context I have no objection to replacing "39.51 years" with "39+1⁄2 years". (The 9.1 years was from a previous link to a BBC article, also about statistics). Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- Oops, yes I did miss the 8.8 years, I just saw the 6.5 years for men (the 9.1 wasn't on your list though). Your last example is noticably different from the preceding six. They are all fixed preriods of time whereas the seventh is the result of a statistical calculation. You might note the phrase "and reserve the decimals only for mathematical and statistical use" above. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Martin of Sheffield: All of the examples are "... and a half" ... except for the ones that are not (9.1 years, 8.8 years). How would you write those? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 23:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly. All except the last examples above are "... and a half". It would also be sensible for "... and a quarter". (2+1⁄4 for example.) Anything else should normally be expressed in with months/weeks/days and reserve the decimals only for mathematical and statistical use. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- That works for 2+1⁄2 (and for 39+1⁄2 while we're at it), but I've never seen 9+1⁄10 years or 8+4⁄5 years. That would be weird. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- The first and last of Dondervogel 2's seven examples are the result of statistical calculations, so really aren't the same as using a decimal fraction to refer to one period in the life of one individual. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:25, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I assume everyone here would agree that decimalized years are commonly used when dealing with science, demographics, and statistics. And yes, newspaper headlines use it for prison sentences – but see WP:NEWSSTYLE. The specific debate here is whether it's appropriate to use it in biographical prose dealing with events in an individual's life. In my dialect of (Commonwealth) English, it's not standard to write "Jenkins lived as a prisoner in North Korea for 39.5 years" (let alone 39.51). (Per MOS:TIES, the Jenkins biography should probably adhere to US English in the event of a dispute over WP:ENGVAR.) Muzilon (talk) 00:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I suspect that those examples really ought to be 2+1⁄2 ({{frac|2|1|2}}) years and are only written as "2.5" to avoid using "2½". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see why the continuity matters. Still, it was just one example. It's not hard to find more:
- Just my native speaker of American English intuition (who just happens to have a PhD in Linguistics), but I find "39+1⁄2 years", "more than 39 years", and "almost 40 years" much more natural in the given context than "39.5 years". Even "39 years and 6 months" is better than "39.5 years", although I like it less than the first three choices. - Donald Albury 14:40, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Count me as another who thinks expressing years in decimals is a strange and unnatural sounding practice for anything outside of a statistical analysis or other similar mathematical or scientific use. It's just not how people discuss years because years aren't divided in to easy decimal divisions. They're divided into 12 months, not 10. And while "and a half" and "and a quarter" are used because 12 divides into halves and quarters easily, that has a certain informality in writing that may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia. Plus there's fact that it's over-precise to attempt to express that period as a decimal. Frankly, there's zero reason anyone would unless they have a poor grasp of the language. oknazevad (talk) 18:20, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
There're a lot of claims here as to what's normal, common practice, unencyclopedic, professional, tripping, the average reader's understanding, sensible, and intiutive. However, as we're all editors of the English Wikipedia: do we have any reliable sources? A lot of our MOS rules have been derived from preexisting standards; should we not cite similar when writing (or arguing about) new MOS guidance regarding decimalized years in biographies? (For what it's worth, I don't have a preference—except to lean towards precision when we have it; I disputed being told my experiences, exposure, and use of the English language are abnormal and not to be duplicated, especially in the absense of an MOS consensus.) — Fourthords | =Λ= | 22:40, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- As the editor who first used "39.51 years"[2] and reinstated it,[3] can you cite a pre-existing standard supporting such usage? NebY (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand the question. Are you asking if I have that for which I, myself, am asking? If so, I don't: that's why I asked. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 13:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- The consensus thus far seems to be that decimalized years - especially with two decimal places - are not standard in biographical prose and should be limited to a statistical/mathematical context. Can you, as a minority voice, produce something from the Chicago Manual of Style (or similar) to refute the majority position? Muzilon (talk) 04:00, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with this as the consensus position, but I wouldn't want it as a policy I think. Johnbod (talk) 05:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, so far there's been no convincing evidence that this needs to be settled by the MoS. If the folks tracking the Jenkins bio can work it out among themselves, that would be great; otherwise they should try dispute resolution. If the issue starts to come up repeatedly in multiple articles, then it might be worth discussing what to do in the MoS. --Trovatore (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and if it comes up again in one or two other articles, reference to this discussion might help resolve matters without needing to add a section to the MoS. NebY (talk) 14:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- That's where it was being discussed, where I asked about a recent edit. I'm not sure why Muzilon (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) moved it here; I just followed them. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, so far there's been no convincing evidence that this needs to be settled by the MoS. If the folks tracking the Jenkins bio can work it out among themselves, that would be great; otherwise they should try dispute resolution. If the issue starts to come up repeatedly in multiple articles, then it might be worth discussing what to do in the MoS. --Trovatore (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't agree this is the consensus. On my part I see nothing wrong with writing "39.5 years". Just nothing. It's clear, concise, unambiguous, and widely used outside Wikipedia. I also see nothing wrong with "39 1/2 years". That's my position. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- You and Fourthords appear to be the only two editors here arguing for that position (so far). May I suggest you create an RfC if you want wider input. Muzilon (talk) 07:49, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I see no need for an RfC because I'm not arguing for a change. I am merely stating my opinion, which is that I do not recognise your description of consensus. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm uninterested in adding a site-wide consensus where none already exists on the matter. I was just asking why the Jenkins article warranted vagueness of time when the sources provided specificity. You moved the conversation here, but this discussion hasn't addressed my inciting inquiry. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- It should be apparent that I raised the issue here because it does concern MOS:NUMBERS. (Even if Fourthords just intended to ask a more general question about "vagueness of time" elsewhere.) And as I pointed out above, I've located at least 3 other articles where contributors have used decimal years for biographical prose - something most editors here seem to agree is a non-standard usage. Muzilon (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- You and Fourthords appear to be the only two editors here arguing for that position (so far). May I suggest you create an RfC if you want wider input. Muzilon (talk) 07:49, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with this as the consensus position, but I wouldn't want it as a policy I think. Johnbod (talk) 05:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- The consensus thus far seems to be that decimalized years - especially with two decimal places - are not standard in biographical prose and should be limited to a statistical/mathematical context. Can you, as a minority voice, produce something from the Chicago Manual of Style (or similar) to refute the majority position? Muzilon (talk) 04:00, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand the question. Are you asking if I have that for which I, myself, am asking? If so, I don't: that's why I asked. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 13:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Era: Use of Common Era as preferable to Anno Domini?
This is NOT an RfC... yet. I am doing the pre-work of determining if we could finally come down on one side or the other in most cases, if not all, and use the Common Era dating system which makes use of CE and BCE as preferable to AD and BC? I believe that in academia today, CE/BCE is seen as more neutral, and is pretty widely used and seems to me to be used more by the day in the english speaking world at least when it comes to non-Christian material. I would love to seek community input, and if there seems to be a clear enough consensus, to then more forward to a formal RfC, and then from there, the policy recommendation to be implemented in the MOS. TY — Moops ⋠T⋡ 22:34, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- No, this won't happen. You should have realized this by now from the various attempts you've made to change individual articles. Johnbod (talk) 22:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- We have come down on a consensus. You're not really interested in "community input", there's been plenty of that. When I read "I would love to seek community input, and if there seems to be a clear enough consensus..." I hear "Please support me I want to push this through to fit my personal preference". BTW, the language is "English", not "english". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming you are unaware of the history of this discussion, I recommend using the search function to learn what has transpired in the past on this page. In short, we have a consensus that perhaps no one likes very much, but too many people have too strong opinions to come to a new consensus. It's not worth the time or bother of bringing this up again, unless something dramatic like the Second Coming has happened to change views (and eras). SchreiberBike | ⌨ 23:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- We have come down on a consensus. You're not really interested in "community input", there's been plenty of that. When I read "I would love to seek community input, and if there seems to be a clear enough consensus..." I hear "Please support me I want to push this through to fit my personal preference". BTW, the language is "English", not "english". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Of course in my opinion CE is the better system, not merely for secularism reasons but also because Christ seems to have been born several years "Before Christ". Even so, there is no conclusive policy argument one way or another - and not only is there no consensus to mandate CE, even if there were it would undoubtedly cause a kerfuffle of great magnitude on and off Wikipedia, get dragged into the culture wars, interpreted as an attack on religion, etc. We can simply not get into it and it will save time and energy to work on articles.
- Perhaps the time to standardise on CE will come some decades hence if it gains broad cultural acceptance over the AD system - who knows? But for now this is probably as it should be. CharredShorthand (talk) 12:10, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
- It has gained such acceptance in academia as well as in the English speaking world with two notable exceptions, Brits (oddly cling to old customs maybe?), as well as Christians. — Moops ⋠T⋡ 18:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Really? I see it as the flip side of that. BCE/CE has gained some traction in academia but very limited use in general society. Strangely, it is use in both Christian and non-Christian academia. But ask random people off the street what BCE/CE means and you will get a blank stare. So, it's not just a Brit thing and not just a Christian thing. Stepho talk 11:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- It has gained such acceptance in academia as well as in the English speaking world with two notable exceptions, Brits (oddly cling to old customs maybe?), as well as Christians. — Moops ⋠T⋡ 18:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- At Talk:Ancient Roman units of measurement#Era, I suggested you look at the now archived Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 161#Article titles for years: BC/AD or BCE/CE as a recent example of the strength of feeling around this subject. What in that WT:MOSNUM discussion makes you think
we could finally come down on one side or the other
and would do so in favour of your preferred usage? NebY (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)- I completely support you Moops. The BC/AD nomenclature is clearly Christian and should not be used for any dates on Wikipedia. It is not our place to use Christian terminology in what we are trying to make an unbiased encyclopedia. The argument that BC/AD is "known by more people" is ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is global-not US or Euro-centric. Millions of people all over the world read English Wikipedia (among other language of course). For example-in Kenya, English Wikipedia is more widely read than any other language Wikipedia. Anyone who is arguing that BC/AD should be kept because it's some kind of status quo is arguing from a biased standpoint. Religious dating systems should be kept out of Wikipedia unless they are germane to the topic being written about. Eupnevma (talk) 19:46, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- BCE/CE just relabels the Christian era and calls it "common", which it is not ("convenient era" or "Christian era" might have been more appropriate, as it might have gotten rid of the somewhat mystifying "anno domini", although scientists, who seem to favor the change, use latinate words so much that they shouldn't mind). The relabeling might seem appropriate for Roman history, except that so much still valid historical literature uses the old system, as well as Christianity having been born of the religious instincts of the Roman world. The example of Kenya seems inappropriate as that country is 85% Christian, according to religious demographics at its page. Another reason for not changing is that non-native speakers of English would like to be given as-simple-as-possible rules of usage, which BCE/CE just complicates. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC) (edited 05:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC) and 07:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC))
- Indeed. I used to start new Indian articles using BCE/CE, until I realized that except for a small, very expensively educated minority, most of our huge numbers of South Asian readers were used to BC/AD, as generally used in their schools & media, and many did not understand CE at all. Time to close this thread. Johnbod (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
The BC/AD nomenclature is clearly Christian and should not be used for any dates on Wikipedia.
The BCE/CE era style is clearly Christian, so according to this argument this era style should also not be used on Wikipedia. So there are various alternatives, including a dating system based on the presumed date of the foundation of Rome. The Maya also had a dating system…..The argument that BC/AD is "known by more people" is ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is global-not US or Euro-centric.
In my experience as a Brit, Wikipedia is US-centric and the desire to change to BCE/CE is an example of US-centricity.- Sweet6970 (talk) 11:52, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- BCE/CE just relabels the Christian era and calls it "common", which it is not ("convenient era" or "Christian era" might have been more appropriate, as it might have gotten rid of the somewhat mystifying "anno domini", although scientists, who seem to favor the change, use latinate words so much that they shouldn't mind). The relabeling might seem appropriate for Roman history, except that so much still valid historical literature uses the old system, as well as Christianity having been born of the religious instincts of the Roman world. The example of Kenya seems inappropriate as that country is 85% Christian, according to religious demographics at its page. Another reason for not changing is that non-native speakers of English would like to be given as-simple-as-possible rules of usage, which BCE/CE just complicates. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC) (edited 05:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC) and 07:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC))
- I completely support you Moops. The BC/AD nomenclature is clearly Christian and should not be used for any dates on Wikipedia. It is not our place to use Christian terminology in what we are trying to make an unbiased encyclopedia. The argument that BC/AD is "known by more people" is ignoring the fact that Wikipedia is global-not US or Euro-centric. Millions of people all over the world read English Wikipedia (among other language of course). For example-in Kenya, English Wikipedia is more widely read than any other language Wikipedia. Anyone who is arguing that BC/AD should be kept because it's some kind of status quo is arguing from a biased standpoint. Religious dating systems should be kept out of Wikipedia unless they are germane to the topic being written about. Eupnevma (talk) 19:46, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Please, God, not this shit again. EEng 05:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps we could add it to Wikipedia:Perennial proposals Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes please. Tony (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- If no one has a proposal which stands a chance of being approved (and I'm sure no one does), let's not waste time and energy on this. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 23:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
currently redirects here, specifically to:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death
The problem is that nowhere on this page is Dates of birth and death directly discussed. Yes, the section/anchor redirected to discusses date ranges but 1) a policy on "Dates of birth and death" is expected to discuss much more than how to express the range. 2) what to do when the range isn't a range (because the person is still living) is snuck into here, which I feel is out of place.
I suggest MOS:DOB is redirected to a comprehensive policy on how to express people's births and deaths.
For example, I got here because someone made an edit saying effectively "per MOS:DOB we don't specify the PLACE of birth".
But this policy says nothing on that topic. This makes me guess it used to redirect to a much more comprehensive discussion, covering all aspects of the topic "how to express info relating to the birth and death of a person": how to express dates, date ranges, place of death and other details.
It should not be scattered and/or incomplete, but currently, it is. CapnZapp (talk) 11:40, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- @CapnZapp, this is covered in Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Birth_date_and_place JeffUK 13:58, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
User:JeffUK: I have questions. CapnZapp (talk) 19:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Why is MOS:DOB redirecting here instead of there?
And why does "there" say
What "further" information? It is when MOS:DOB lands you here, you need "there" for the further information! If "there" is the one place where all pertinent information is given, why not focus on "there" as the MOS:DOB destination? CapnZapp (talk) 20:01, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- There's no expectation that there is one place that holds all the information you may be looking for at this particular time. Dates and Numbers covers lots of things you need to know about dates and numbers (including birth and death dates) Biography covers lots of things you need to know about the style of biographical articles, including birth and death dates. I think your question really is 'Why did an editor send me to the wrong one to read about whether or not to include a birth location' the answer to that is that they got it wrong. JeffUK 21:39, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry but yes there is. At least, I assume that the "DOB" in MOS:DOB stands for dates of births (and deaths). If this is correct, then yes, obviously a reader would expect that this shortcut leads them to a comprehensive overview, or in your own words, "one place that holds all the information [they] may be looking for at this particular time." Furthermore, the editor that sent me here only operated on the (very reasonable) assumption that a shortcut that expands to "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death" would indeed be my one-stop shop in all matters regarding dates of birth and deaths. Wouldn't you agree? CapnZapp (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we have a 'persistently recurring style issue' that actually requires any additions to any part of the MOS. Maybe you could draft the section you're proposing to make it clearer what you think is actually missing? JeffUK 10:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
all aspects of the topic "how to express info relating to the birth and death of a person": how to express dates, date ranges, places of birth and death and other details
that may or may not be considered pertinent in various cases, for bio subjects that are alive, and for bio subjects that are dead. The presence of MOS:DOB suggests the target offers all of this, but it doesn't. CapnZapp (talk) 11:31, 10 February 2023 (UTC)- "all aspects of the topic" and "other details that may or may not be considered pertinent" just begs the question, what do you think is missing? The only thing you mentioned that isn't already here is 'place of birth' which no-one would expect to find under 'Date of Birth'. JeffUK 12:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we have a 'persistently recurring style issue' that actually requires any additions to any part of the MOS. Maybe you could draft the section you're proposing to make it clearer what you think is actually missing? JeffUK 10:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry but yes there is. At least, I assume that the "DOB" in MOS:DOB stands for dates of births (and deaths). If this is correct, then yes, obviously a reader would expect that this shortcut leads them to a comprehensive overview, or in your own words, "one place that holds all the information [they] may be looking for at this particular time." Furthermore, the editor that sent me here only operated on the (very reasonable) assumption that a shortcut that expands to "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death" would indeed be my one-stop shop in all matters regarding dates of birth and deaths. Wouldn't you agree? CapnZapp (talk) 18:12, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Petition to have dates start with the month, followed by the day
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This is not happening and there's no point in wasting more of our time discussing why it won't happen. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC) |
It has come to my attention that some don’t agree with having a month before the day (I.e. March 1, 2023) and would rather have it like this (1 March, 2023). Personally I think that is ridiculous, and we normally would have it the other way around. Is there any way to start a petition here on the wiki to allow these kinds of changes. Marino13 (talk) 18:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
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Well, that answers that 🤦♂️.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Marino13 (talk • contribs) 08:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)