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Replacing Template:Infobox Negro World Series
Thoughts on replacing {{Infobox Negro World Series}} with {{Infobox baseball championship series}} which is used on World Series pages? I mocked up a sample for what it'd look like with 1924 Colored World Series. Here's a side-by-side look:
Proposed version {{Infobox baseball championship series}} |
Current version {{Infobox Negro World Series}} | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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{{Infobox Negro World Series |year = 1924 |altname=co |team1 = '''[[Kansas City Monarchs]]''' |team1_1 = '''6''' |team1_2 = 0 |team1_3 = 6 |team1_4 = 3 |team1_5 = 3 |team1_6 = '''6''' |team1_7 = '''4''' |team1_8 = '''3''' |team1_9 = 3 |team1_10 = '''5''' |team1_tot = '''5''' |team1_short = Kansas City |team1_manager = [[José Méndez]] |team2 = [[Hilldale Club]] |team2_1 = 2 |team2_2 = '''11''' |team2_3 = 6 |team2_4 = '''4''' |team2_5 = '''5''' |team2_6 = 5 |team2_7 = 3 |team2_8 = 2 |team2_9 = '''5''' |team2_10 = 0 |team2_tot = 4 |gm3_ei=* |gm7_ei=* |table-note=* indicates extra innings |team2_short = Hilldale |team2_manager = [[Frank Warfield]] |format = Best-of-nine |HOFers = '''''Kansas City:''''' [[José Méndez]] (mgr.), [[Bullet Rogan]],<br> '''''Hilldale''''': [[Judy Johnson]], [[Biz Mackey]],<br> [[Louis Santop]] |dates = October 3–20 |location1 = {{nowrap|Philadelphia: [[Baker Bowl]] <small>(1,2)</small>}} |location2 = {{nowrap|Baltimore: [[Maryland Baseball Park]] <small>(3,4)</small>}} |location3 = {{nowrap|Kansas City: [[Muehlebach Field]] <small>(5,6,7)</small>}} |location4 = {{nowrap|Chicago: [[Schorling Park]] <small>(8,9,10)</small>}} }} |
Feel free to discuss below.–Aidan721 (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I support the current version. Provides more information, such as the format and managers. I'm torn now on if the actual games are necessary in the infobox or not, especially if we have them later on, but as is I'm concerned about cutting too much information like what I listed above out of the main infobox. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I was unaware that the Negro World Series had a different infobox and agree with Bagumba about making them more consistent with the World Series infobox. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:42, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any need for the Negro WS to have a separate infobox; consistency is good for an encyclopedia. However, the generic infobox seems bland and could use a bit of color. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 19:51, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm a bit taken aback by the particular use of color in the Negro World Series infobox, that it should use brown as its header color, which I can only assume was deliberate and seems a bit on the nose, no? At any rate championship series infoboxes for the four major sports don't use colorful headers, and if MLB considers Negro Leagues to be historical Major Leagues, then it seems to me using the same infobox that is used for the MLB World Series is appropriate. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- I refactored it to pass information to {{infobox baseball championship series}}, which eliminated the spurious coloring. note that the infobox is being formally proposed for deletion here. Frietjes (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Ronald Acuña jr World Series champion
What’s the arguments against him being classified as a world champion? Other than being on the WS roster? Understandable for players who really didn’t play or contribute much but he played like an mvp and the braves needed every win they got. He carried the team the first half of the season. Also CBS sports and other sports writer have named him a world champion. 2600:1700:89B0:1920:D10D:78E5:52D:ECC5 (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I invited the IP editor to come here from Acuna's talk page. It is the WP:BASEBALL consensus to only include in the template and infobox WS championships for those who are on the WS roster. However, editors are often changing the infoboxes, as many are not aware of the consensus, and those who become aware of it don't agree with it. Is this a battle to fight? Acuna did play half of the regular season for Atlanta last year. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Briefly digging thru the archives, I found discussions from 2012, Aug 2015, Nov 2015 and 2019 before I stopped looking. Might be worth an RfC just to put it to rest. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would advise against that as RFCs tend to be more trouble than they are worth... and this is just an IP trying to cause trouble. The main reason it was set the way it was is that anything other than a bright line for inclusion invites too much subjectivity. Spanneraol (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Briefly digging thru the archives, I found discussions from 2012, Aug 2015, Nov 2015 and 2019 before I stopped looking. Might be worth an RfC just to put it to rest. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think the IP is "trying to cause trouble". It's not a guideline that makes sense to many people, and seems to be different than what other Wikipedia sports projects do, which is part of the confusion for this user and many others. Ronald Acuña is a well-known player, and many people don't understand why he's not included. The situation isn't helped by a vague heading in the infobox about "awards", which is how many see a World Series ring. Perhaps that needs to be changed. BilCat (talk) 23:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
(←) I dug around on baseball-reference to see if I could find what their inclusion/exclusion policy was to have a World Series banner at the top of a player's page. I found nothing, so I emailed them (via sports-reference) & heard back.
Thanks for your question. Our standard is that a player must have either appeared in a postseason game, or been on the World Series roster. Gore's postseason appearances in 2015 and 2022 mean he is listed as a 2x champion, whereas Zito, Cain and Acuña missed out on the postseasons in the years mentioned.
The 4 players mentioned above were ones that were mentioned the 4 discussions I linked above (Gore is Terrance Gore, Cain is Matt Cain, Zito is Barry Zito). Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 09:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Courtesy notice: RSN discussion on BR/Bullpen
FYSA: RSN discussion on the Bullpen subdomain of the baseball-reference.com site. I realize this has been discussed here often before, but wanted to make sure there are no lingering concerns before I start going through 3000 links. Kuru (talk) 18:10, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Articles for deletion/List of Major League Baseball all-time leaders in home runs by pitchers
This was nominated for deletion, so I'm inviting the project to the discussion.Neonblak talk - 18:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Naming conventions
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (baseball players) needs an update. Some of the examples given are inaccurate as they are redirects to their current locations. We have Example: Bill Blair (Negro leagues pitcher) and Bill Blair (American Association pitcher)
, which redirect to Bill Blair (1940s pitcher) and Bill Blair (1880s pitcher), respectively, and Example: Lee King (outfielder, born 1892) and Lee King (outfielder, born 1894)
, which redirect to Lee King (outfielder) and Lee King (utility player). The second example should probably just be swapped out for another example. But clarification is also needed. When a "Chad Smith" debuted for the Rockies last week, I set up his page at Chad Smith (2020s pitcher) to distinguish him from Chad Smith (2010s pitcher), but they have since been moved to Chad Smith (baseball, born 1995) and Chad Smith (baseball, born 1989). – Muboshgu (talk) 17:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are you saying:
- The guidelines don't make sense and should be changed to...
- The guidelines are fine and the above examples should be moved back to match the current guidelines
- You found the inconsistencies in the guideline, and only want new examples, with no other changes
- Some combination of all of the above
- —Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some combination of above. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. The Lee Kings clearly need to be replaced by another example if we have deemed one to be a utility player. For the Bill Blairs, if we are not disambiguating based on their league, then we should remove that line entirely. I'm unclear on whether the Chad Smiths should be dab'd by 2010s pitcher/2020s pitcher or baseball born 1989/baseball born 1995. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:12, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- For the Chad Smith's, WP:NCBASE is pretty clear that birth year is the least preferred option:
If all previous steps are still insufficient, then use the players' year of birth.
The rationale presumably being, "Most people don't know a player's exact birth year, but might sorta know when they played. The edit summary for the move ofPer Javy Guerra
is not applicable, since the Guerras' careers overlapped.—Bagumba (talk) 19:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- For the Chad Smith's, WP:NCBASE is pretty clear that birth year is the least preferred option:
- Some combination of above. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. The Lee Kings clearly need to be replaced by another example if we have deemed one to be a utility player. For the Bill Blairs, if we are not disambiguating based on their league, then we should remove that line entirely. I'm unclear on whether the Chad Smiths should be dab'd by 2010s pitcher/2020s pitcher or baseball born 1989/baseball born 1995. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:12, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
KBO League AFDs
Hi. Please see AFDs here here here here here and here on KBO League players. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Negro Leagues Standings in MLB season pages
Is it time to add these standings to the season pages for 1920 through 1948? Baseball Reference considers these to be full major league seasons and lists them along with the American and National Leagues.
For example, 1920 may look like this. However, there are a few outstanding issues:
- Baseball Reference doesn't list a home/road split, so the "MLB Standings" template doesn't work properly. I just listed every game as "home" to make the template work at all.
- It's too wide for most monitors, although, there is definitely extra room to make the team columns much narrower if the template is edited.
- There aren't season articles for every season of a team that MLB considers to be "major."
American League
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National League
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Negro National League
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Absolutely I think this should be done since MLB is clear and unambiguous that certain Negro leagues are to be considered "major," but I think there is too much uncertainty that needs to be nailed down before 1 editor just starts doing it unilaterally. Jhn31 (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
No, as the teams weren't members of Major League Baseball & none of the teams played for the World Series. Best we not try to right the wrongs. GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's pretty well-established that MLB itself has decided certain Negro leagues to have been "major," and that sources and coverage are following suit. Jhn31 (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Further example: the articles for 1914 and 1915 include the Federal League standings, not because that league was a "member of Major League Baseball" but because MLB considers that league to have been a "major" league, as do Baseball-Reference and other resources. Jhn31 (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Federal League records in the 1914 & 1915 Major League Baseball season pages
I don't recall any consensus to add the 1914 & 1915 Federal League records to the 1914 & 1915 Major League Baseball season pages. IMHO, they should be deleted from those two pages. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Per the Federal League's page: The league itself and many sports writers considered it a major league during its existence; organized baseball recognized its major league status in 1968.[1][2] The Federal League has officially been considered a "major league" for over 50 years, and unlike the 1920 – 1948 Negro Leagues, there are full statistics available for every game. There is no reason why it would not be included. Remember that there was no organization called "Major League Baseball" until 2000. There were two legally distinct leagues that were considered both at the time and now in hindsight to have been "major," and in 1914 and 1915, there were three. For 1920 through 1948, there were varying numbers of Negro leagues that generally weren't considered "major" at the time but now retroactively are, so the situations aren't identical. (Though as stated in the previous section, I advocate for including them in the MLB seasons pages now they are considered to have been "major leagues.") Jhn31 (talk) 20:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- MLB recognizes the Federal League as a "major league". The stats count, so it should stay. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- ^ Thorn, John (May 4, 2015). "Why Is the National Association Not a Major League … and Other Records Issues". Our Game. Retrieved November 21, 2019.
- ^ "WAS THE FEDERAL LEAGUE REALLY A MAJOR LEAGUE?". thenationalpastimemuseum.com. May 5, 2019. Retrieved November 21, 2019.