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Clerk reform at RfA/RfB
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This RfC attempts to gauge a consensus for a reform of clerking at RfAs/RfBs, which is proposed due to much discussion on that topic during a recent RfB. The general proposal is submitted below for evaluation, please share your thoughts. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Proposal (Clerk reform at RfA/RfB)
- Clerking for RfAs and RfBs is delegated exclusively to the clerks serving at the Arbitration Committee who do not simultaneously have bureaucrat rights.
- Bureaucrats may !vote but may not clerk discussions. If they submit a !vote, they shall not be active during the determination of consensus for approval of the request for adminship/bureaucratship and may not participate in the bureaucrat discussion, if it is started.
- A clerk that has had substantial interaction with the candidate in question, or has nominated the candidate for RfA/RfB, must refrain from clerking it.
- The clerks must refrain from making comments in support or opposition of the candidate, and shall not modify or remove the comments based on whether the clerk agrees or disagrees with the opinion expressed there, but may only do so in case of violation of civility. They shall make explicit any intervention in the comments, along with the reasoning of intervention.
- Using their administrative tools (if they have access to them), the clerks may ban the editor from the RfA/RfB they are participating in case of persistent refusal to maintain decorum, but only for the duration of that RfA/RfB. A general ban from such discussions may only be enacted following a discussion at the administrator's noticeboard.
- Any sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry investigations, or those of canvassing, if started by a clerk or a bureaucrat in relation to an RfA/RfB, must be resolved as a first priority.
- The community will determine the venue of appeal or review of clerk's actions. (Formulated that way due to the current uncertainty over the existence of XRV and its scope)
- The Arbitration Committee may, if the rational usage of user resources so requires, appoint more clerks.
Rationale (Clerk reform at RfA/RfB)
In 2011, there was a proposal to introduce clerking as an ad hoc role for administrators and non-administrators in good standing alike, but it was not approved. The 2015 RfC established that bureaucrats may have the right to clerk discussions. In the answers submitted as part of the most recent RfB, however, Wugapodes, an (unsuccessful) candidate for a bureaucrat, said that bureaucrats are reluctant to clerk the discussions themselves, particularly since they may be perceived as non-neutral if they intervene. There has been some discussion during the RfB of the proposal of more active clerking as a way to reduce the stress and drama that often accompany the process, and there seemed to be some support to let it have a try, though not much certainty over the effectiveness of such a solution.
This proposal suggests a change from the bureaucrat-enforced decorum (which apparently does not work) to clerk-enforced decorum. Clerks are supposed to be experienced in dealing with incivility, which is often in ample supply at ArbCom, and the ways to respond to it. A drawback to this solution is that there are few clerks to begin with, and some bureaucrats are already arbiters. That said, let's try this proposal to see if people agree to make some sort of change, or even if it fails, we could see where the community in general stands on this issue. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Feedback (Clerk reform at RfA/RfB)
(summoned by the bot) I applaud such efforts but 'Oppose This would be 8 new rules and procedures to solve 2 non-existent problems. The big problem at RFA isn't uncivil decorum, the problem and fix is more complex than that. And Wikipedia already has rules and processes regarding uncivil behavior. But thanks for such efforts. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
If approval for sanctions is determined at the administrators' noticeboard, then I think any uninvolved administrator should be able to evaluate consensus (and, if deemed necessary, implement any suitable blocks). I don't think it's a good idea to prioritize sockpuppet investigations for an internal procedure versus those for mainspace edits. If necessary, an internal procedure can be put on hold or extended, without consequences to readers. Regarding the 2015 RfC, note the option of "any editor" received almost as much support as "bureaucrats", which is in practice what is done today. (On more minor editorial notes, the first sentence of point 2 is redundant with point 1, and point 8 is always generally the case.) isaacl (talk) 16:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Feedback on components:
- I don't see any reason to forbid 'crats from clerking. I also don't like the idea of having arbcom be in charge of RfA's (as they are in charge of the arbcom clerks). I vote for arbcom members for dispute resolution skills, not for this.
- 'Crats already recuse when appropriate; this sets up a scenario that could prevent closure (as recusal isn't required if every active crat participated in an RFA it would be stuck - in practice this doesn't happen as the majority of 'crats do abstain from !voting.
- There are currently only 4 active clerks - who are also active throughout the project - some are already likely to have interacted with admin candidates.
- Volunteering to clerk arbcom cases should not disenfranchise someone from participating in RfA's.
- "Bans" don't require admin tools, and I don't think we should have any situation where a single editor can ban another one.
- CU's are volunteers - dictating the order of their work, or that they must volunteer to do something before they are allowed to volunteer to do other things is very anti-volunteer.
- Um, sure.
- Arbcom can already appoint as many clerks as they want.
- Oppose. While some RFA/RFB discussions could be better, this amount of bureaucracy isn't going to resolve the issues and could lead to others. Thryduulf (talk) 11:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd quite like to see some sort of "authorized" clerking system, but this seems like too much. What's needed are a few admins who are clear on what won't fly at RfX and what to do about it. Whoever clerks an RfX shouldn't !vote in it, but otherwise they really don't need any special qualifications. valereee (talk) 13:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd also oppose - let's have Crats (those who don't (!)vote) clerk. In the same way that admin actions don't make someone INVOLVED for a future admin action, clerking would not logically disqualify from 'cratchats anyway. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - I'm a longstanding proponent of clerking at RfA, to the extent that I myself wrote a proposal over a decade ago. So this definitely caught my attention. And then immediately lost it with the very first point. I find the proposal to be tone deaf towards the RfB that inspired it. The RfB mostly failed because the user was an active arbitrator, and a significant group came out in opposition to the existence of an overlap between the two roles, with many comments clarifying that it is nothing personal against the user. I certainly don't think the community wants a special class of people hand-picked by Arbcom to be policing RfA, when they don't want even the most uncontentious arbitrator policing RfA as a crat. In spite of this result, it did not fail because the community doesn't want crats to clerk RfA. Indeed, the community has repeatedly established that it supports the notion of crats clerking RfA, it is supported by a formal RfC, and based on the RfB, this hasn't changed. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:36, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose: How does this solve anything is beyond me. I might be dumb but please don't tell me that sockstriking a sock's !vote at a RfA would get me blocked just because I'm not a ArbCom clerk. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 20:43, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - Preventing crats from clerking at RfB seems like a good idea, but the rest of the proposals seem to me like formalizing a lot of things that already happen, and work just fine at that. Not to be too libertarian, but I think setting rules beyond what is necessary is...not necessary. Toadspike (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Defining a process for the discussion of making Vector 2022 the new default
Hi everyone,
We would love to see the Vector 2022 skin (see what it looks like) become the new default on desktop
across all wikis, including English Wikipedia. The skin would be turned on for all anonymous users, and also all logged-in users who now use Vector (the current default). Logged-in users are and will be able to switch to any of our other available skins, including the current Vector. We will be ready to begin making the change at the end of August (and not in July, as previously announced), when the visual refinements and other deployment blockers are ready.
The goal of the project is to make the interface more welcoming and comfortable for readers and useful for advanced users. The project consists of a series of feature improvements which make it easier to read and learn, navigate within the page, search, switch between languages, use page and user tools, and more. The team has been working on this change for the past 3 years, ensuring that every change is thoroughly tested and proven to work.
Making this change is important for both readers and contributors.
We need your help and feedback on how to proceed. We have two requests:
- We need to talk in a way that works well for the English Wikipedia community. What would be the best format and timeline to discuss the change? We have included a proposed format below, and are interested in what you think about it. If you agree, we can begin the deployment conversation in one week. Here is our suggestion:
- Have the deployment conversation that would take 2 weeks. The goal for that discussion will be to identify breaking issues or opportunities for improvement for the new skin. It will be important for us to reduce the risk of bugs or imperfections that would be particularly troublesome on English Wikipedia
- After the deployment conversation, we get back to you with a prioritized list of remaining work/fixes necessary prior to deployment
- Before the deployment,
- Banners announcing the change will be displayed for logged-out and logged-in users
- The announcement will be made both on the Village Pump as well as in the Tech News.
- We proceed with deployment once the agreed upon fixes are ready.
- We need to understand the perspectives of different parts of the English Wikipedia community. What forms of communication would help to gather feedback and further raise awareness for the English Wikipedia community? We would like to have an open discussion, but are open to other forms such as requests for comments, office hours dedicated specifically for the English Wikipedia community, or guest presentations at community meetings. If necessary, we can also adjust the timeline of conversations based on your needs.
We welcome your replies here, or via email (olga@wikimedia.org, sgrabarczuk@wikimedia.org), as well as during our next office hours (26 July).
Thank you for your time and help. OVasileva (WMF), SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 12:05, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- The comments from jawp above suggest that this change may not be entirely uncontroversial, with some editors feeling that it is not an improvement. Will enwp be allowed any say in whether the change is rolled out at all, or is it being imposed with our only input being into the details? Certes (talk) 12:48, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- No matter what change, there is a guarantee that a certain amount of people will not feel like it is an improvement. That in itself is a very bad metric for decision making. Are the points being made valid, is there an opt out, what other problems are we solving and are the people responding an accurate representation of the larger group of users. Those seem like much more critical questions to me. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I didn’t like it at all when I tried it, but I’ve been won over after spending some time with it. Doug Weller talk 13:14, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- No matter what change, there is a guarantee that a certain amount of people will not feel like it is an improvement. That in itself is a very bad metric for decision making. Are the points being made valid, is there an opt out, what other problems are we solving and are the people responding an accurate representation of the larger group of users. Those seem like much more critical questions to me. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a list of blockers that are being accepted as blocking tasks right now?
- I think the table of contents handling parts are the biggest problem right now. We currently have a lot of control over the TOC placement and display, which seems much harder or impossible with vector-2022.
- Personally, I think with our "wide vector-2022" gadget option being an option for editors, general editors may be OK -- if we can ever get control over what is going on with the left sidebar - it comes, it goes, it is hard to control.
- Here are 2 examples of the sidebar with the wide gadget: an article that doesn't for a TOC, and article that has a displayed TOC. In the later, the entire sidebar will collapse, but only at certain display sizes, there is a task out there about being able to collapse the TOC - but very notably, even when collapsed that sidebar stays open an empty. Is the "grid" work going to address that at all? The sidebar element seems to be part of the content container. — xaosflux Talk 13:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I quite like the wide-vector-2022 layout and I'm sure I could be won over after a few weeks of it being the default. I think I'm in the minority when I say I like the ToC positioning on the left (but only on wide-vector). I strongly dislike the normal (non wide) version of Vector 2022, and I've left comments here on why this is. As for the OP's question: I don't think enwp will take kindly to a discussion about setting Vector as the default while these issues of narrowness, ToC placement, and unnecessary top banner whitespace exist. Anarchyte (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't hate the side-bar based TOC in vector-2022 (even with wide mode) - I mostly hate that when all the sidebar elements (toolbar, and hopefully soon to be TOC) are collapsed or docked, that the sidebar can't be collapsed without also adding in javascript hacks - I'd think this should be possible with css and a layout that allows it to widen if there are contained elements pushing the margin. — xaosflux Talk 13:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hiding the TOC and then regenerating a custom TOC (as in this article does achieve what I'm looking for I suppose - not sure why that is so hard? — xaosflux Talk 13:42, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps something the team could look into could be having the __TOC__ magic word forcing the TOC to exist within the page instead of in the sidebar. Anarchyte (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hiding the TOC and then regenerating a custom TOC (as in this article does achieve what I'm looking for I suppose - not sure why that is so hard? — xaosflux Talk 13:42, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't hate the side-bar based TOC in vector-2022 (even with wide mode) - I mostly hate that when all the sidebar elements (toolbar, and hopefully soon to be TOC) are collapsed or docked, that the sidebar can't be collapsed without also adding in javascript hacks - I'd think this should be possible with css and a layout that allows it to widen if there are contained elements pushing the margin. — xaosflux Talk 13:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hey @Xaosflux - thanks for the feedback, and quick answer to the sidebar question (I'll follow up on your other points around magic words a bit later). Once the new ToC collapsing behavior is ready (phab:T306660), the gadget should work again to stretch the full width if both the sidebar and the ToC are collapsed OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 13:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @OVasileva (WMF) thanks, looking forward to trying that out - I think it will at least alleviate some worry for logged-in-editors that have concerns about "too narrow" - likely some of the more heavy power editors that are using wide desktop monitors, I don't think it is a big deal for casual readers. From initial notes below, seems like the loosing control of Table of Contents styling in general is at least an emerging concern among editors - I'd hate to see ugly hacks get pushed by the community if there is an impasse (like the continuing problems going on in Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#RfC:_Showing_Editnotices_to_mobile_editors below with Mobile Front End and developers preventing certain elements from being controllable). — xaosflux Talk 13:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I quite like the wide-vector-2022 layout and I'm sure I could be won over after a few weeks of it being the default. I think I'm in the minority when I say I like the ToC positioning on the left (but only on wide-vector). I strongly dislike the normal (non wide) version of Vector 2022, and I've left comments here on why this is. As for the OP's question: I don't think enwp will take kindly to a discussion about setting Vector as the default while these issues of narrowness, ToC placement, and unnecessary top banner whitespace exist. Anarchyte (talk) 13:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding TOC handling in general, for example in these articles editors have specified a custom right-sided TOC, which vector-2022 overrides. — xaosflux Talk 13:34, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- It seems quite inconsistent though, see this article in vector where editors have determined the best TOC layout type, compared to it vector-2022. — xaosflux Talk 13:46, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think the primary reason we have customized TOCs is when they are very long. Of the most common variants, the floating variants ({{toc left}}, {{toc right}}), {{toc limit}}, and {{horizontal toc}} all exist to deal with a long table of contents. General point: except for people who customize their skin selection away from Vector22, I don't think we need to support these at all in the new skin. We can leave the templates alone right now for those people who do use the other skins, if we want. Specific points:
- Floating variants: simply don't care
- Toc limit: With a per-level collapsible table, totally obsolete.
- Horizontal toc: Maybe the only interesting one, since its major use cases are 'letter/number-driven' lists and large categories, and I expect that a TOC that long will be rough on the sidebar version (I haven't checked yet). I think there's probably a feasible feature request somewhere regarding category tables of contents.
- I think forcing the TOC to appear in page besides maybe that last one isn't needed at all (and I don't think that needs anything more than the customization we can already build with a template). Izno (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- phab:T306246 was mentioned above in #Consultation on Search improvements by CX Zoom and Ahecht and myself. That must be solved, and not by updating documentation, declaring it not a bug or closing it as a duplicate of $random other task. (I occasionally see tasks getting closed without a real solution so I'm just saying) I see plenty of open tasks on phab:T309972 so there's plenty to do. From a UI perspective, I suggested some improvements on phab:T302641, that alone is a hard deal breaker to switch for me personally. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 20:31, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @OVasileva (WMF) / @SGrabarczuk (WMF) - I think the entire design/implementation/documentation/testing about page meta-content and collisions with content things like our "coordinates" templates (see also -Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Coordinates_in_Vector_2022, phab:T292617, and phab:T281974) may be a bit of a blocking issue here - seeing as we make use of these features on literally millions of pages. I fear there seems to be a bit of tension in layout/design goals between skin developers and community use. What are your thoughts on the best way to reconcile these sort of things? — xaosflux Talk 12:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
SGrabarczuk (WMF), if you choose to make this change, it will be important to the success of the change to have a team of developers available to monitor forums where bugs and feature requests are reported, create phab tickets actively, and resolve those tickets quickly. Too often, new features are rolled out in beta form (I'm thinking especially of the Visual Editor) and then the development team appears to move on to new projects, leading to bug reports that linger for years (I'm thinking especially of the Visual Editor). I encourage you to designate a place local to en.WP, de.WP, Commons, and other large MediaWiki installations, where editors can report problems without having to travel to unfamiliar sites with different interfaces and watchlists, like mediawiki.org. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Jonesey95. Oh, that's a very fair comment. I'm giving a bunch of quick replies to different parts of your comment. I hope these bits make sense together:
- VE was launched, correct me if I'm wrong, like... 9 years ago? we've learned a lot since that. For example, earlier this year, when planning the current Californian fiscal year, we decided that we would dedicate some time this summer and fall (the first months of the fiscal year) just to further improve Desktop Improvements if needed. So that part's safe, not only in our hearts, but on the governance level, too.
- As a result, some bugs and feature requests will definitely be handled. Depending on how much related to Desktop Improvements, these will either be just done or considered as part of future projects.
- Vector 2022 is the default on ~30 wikis. On a few of these, incl. French Wikipedia, it has been the default for almost two years! So they've done a great deal of bug-reporting/feature-requesting already. I think both our team and other communities may be truly grateful for that.
- SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 15:04, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. I wish you luck. If all goes well with desktop improvements and the developers find that the set-aside time is available for other work, maybe some of the team can work on the VE backlog and officially get it out of beta status. A bunch of us gnomes who clean up errors that it generates would be very grateful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:52, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- ?? "Vector 2022" has been the default on frwiki since 2020? Does it have time traveling properties? — xaosflux Talk 18:22, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux, you are kidding, right? Let's make it clear for everyone around: back then, it wasn't labelled as "Vector 2022", but it was there. We've been adding more and more features and changes, but the first ones (different logo, collapsible sidebar, limited width) have been the default on some wikis since July 2020. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 19:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF) Yes, that was mostly humorous, just contrasting that the entire current incarnation it hasn't had 2 years of bake-in. — xaosflux Talk 19:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, right. It's a good opportunity to make it clear that this interface isn't static, really. These incarnations are like ogres - both have layers. Some are two years old, and some (like the sticky ToC) are two months old. The older a layer is, the more people have actually used it, noticed bugs, advocated for improvements, everything. It's not like we're pulling Vector 2022 with everything about it out of a hat. I hope it's reassuring. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 19:29, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF) Yes, that was mostly humorous, just contrasting that the entire current incarnation it hasn't had 2 years of bake-in. — xaosflux Talk 19:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux, you are kidding, right? Let's make it clear for everyone around: back then, it wasn't labelled as "Vector 2022", but it was there. We've been adding more and more features and changes, but the first ones (different logo, collapsible sidebar, limited width) have been the default on some wikis since July 2020. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 19:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Jonesey95, to sober up here's Growth-Team's profile on Phabricator. Two projects in active development, one project with a new owner and 11 projects with "passive maintenance" (read: unless the building is on fire expect nothing) with the note "New owner needed". Probably just some obscure projects, right? Yeah, it's just WP:WikiLove, WP:Echo, WP:Thanks, WP:Nuke, WP:Page Curation, Special:RecentChanges. Not anything people really use, you know. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 21:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
I suggest having a page somewhere that essentially functions as a press release and/or a list of FAQs. At the miminum, link this page in the banners (i.e. with a CTA: 'Read more about the upcoming change!') so that 1. non-registered visitors can read more about the impending changes (and possibly encourage them to register as editor even if it is just to revert back to the previous skin); 2. interested publications may organically pick it up as a story for their audience. – robertsky (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Great idea, @Robertsky! We're working on a page on wikimediafoundation.org (for readers, media, the "general public"), and we'll definitely have a more detailed FAQ for editors. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd recommend that said press release/FAQ page should also include instructions on how to revert back to the older vector skin. I imagine that there will be a fair few (including myself) using the current vector who would like revert back to the older form, and while I know how to switch skins, there are some who may not be familiar. Hog Farm Talk 19:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
For this change to be a success you can't just impose this on enwiki; you need consensus from the community. Are you willing to open an RfC that seeks to obtain consensus to implement this change? BilledMammal (talk) 21:25, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, I think the proposal pretty much answers your question. Let me rephrase a part of the first message: in the next conversation, we'd like to talk what remains to be done instead of having a yes/no situation. And we do mention RfC there, too. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:36, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Your comment comes across as if this is a done deal, with only small details (
what remains to be done
) to be worked out, but the community needs to be able to reject this. It needs to be able to say that it is not satisfied with the current version of Vector 2022, and instead ask you to come back and see if consensus has changed when you believe you have addressed the objections raised in the discussion. - To rephrase my question; are you willing to open an RfC that seeks to obtain consensus to implement this change, with an option that will permit the community to reject the change? BilledMammal (talk) 22:53, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- +1 to User:BilledMammal's comment. In that vein: Consider me an Oppose to switching the default. On my screen at least, V2022 has a very poor layout that looks unclean and would create a poor impression of Wikipedia, forced upon us by the WMF. I want to see a finished product before everyone without an account (that is the majority of users) are suddenly switched to a new (worse) look. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 21:44, 13 July 2022 (UTC) edited 01:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- We believe this change is extremely important for readers, and have a lot of data and research that can help us prove this. That said, we understand that that community might need more from the skin than what is currently developed. That’s why we hope to get into the details so we can identify what needs to be changed before the conversation on whether and when that change will happen begins. That said, to be clear, we will not be rolling out the new skin prior to coming to such an agreement with the community. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF): Thank you, I am glad to hear that. Are you able to provide us with the data and research reports so that we can consider this change in that context? BilledMammal (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal see § UX research and usability testing below. There's a great deal available there and at other pages, so please specify what else you're seeking if you'd like additional research. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:40, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, I missed that. BilledMammal (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal see § UX research and usability testing below. There's a great deal available there and at other pages, so please specify what else you're seeking if you'd like additional research. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:40, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF): Thank you, I am glad to hear that. Are you able to provide us with the data and research reports so that we can consider this change in that context? BilledMammal (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- We believe this change is extremely important for readers, and have a lot of data and research that can help us prove this. That said, we understand that that community might need more from the skin than what is currently developed. That’s why we hope to get into the details so we can identify what needs to be changed before the conversation on whether and when that change will happen begins. That said, to be clear, we will not be rolling out the new skin prior to coming to such an agreement with the community. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- +1 to User:BilledMammal's comment. In that vein: Consider me an Oppose to switching the default. On my screen at least, V2022 has a very poor layout that looks unclean and would create a poor impression of Wikipedia, forced upon us by the WMF. I want to see a finished product before everyone without an account (that is the majority of users) are suddenly switched to a new (worse) look. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 21:44, 13 July 2022 (UTC) edited 01:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Your comment comes across as if this is a done deal, with only small details (
- @IAmChaos Olga and Szymon explicitly structured this conversation as a meta-conversation about process, not a !vote on implementation. Let's respect that by avoiding bolded !votes, just as we do at VPI. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
I think just waiting until the "final" release version is ready and usable before starting any discussions on adding it is best. While prototypes are still ongoing it isn't great to start any discussion on a non "final" version when signficant changes can still occur and the outcomes on changes are not released. Using the latest prototypes: Color schemes, borders, toc highlighting & logo choices should be able to be viewed at the point the discussion starts rather than lumped in at the end and not allowing anyone to voice their opinions on these choices specifically isn't a good idea. Terasail[✉️] 22:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @IAmChaos, @Terasail, we're not there yet. Please take a look at the proposal. You'll find the replies there. We don't have a definition of a "good enough" product. (In a way, it will never be quite "finished", just as most Wikipedia articles never are.) We'd like to make it together with the community, and now, we're asking how do you think we should do that. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- It sounds like this product, if approved, will see regular releases. Will these releases also be discussed with the community or will they be boldly implemented? BilledMammal (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean? Could you elaborate on that? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF): If I have understood you correctly this version of Vector 2022 is not the final version; instead, it will see regular significant updates. My question is what your process for implementing these updates will be; will you do them boldly or will you discuss them with the community first?
- In some ways, this question is related to my question above from 22:53, 13 July 2022, which I believe you may have missed. BilledMammal (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying your question! What we mean when we say that this is not the final version is:
- We still have some identified issues (documented as tasks) that are not resolved. This is the list that is under this task.
- The two-week conversation we're proposing would be meant to help us define the version upon deployment. We need agreement between our team, the needs of readers, and the community in the identification of what their needs from the skin are. What are the blockers to changing the default? That is the conversation we are currently trying to set up.
- Once deployed, we plan on continuing to work on the desktop experience. Our next focus will be on improving some of the features we’ve built here, but also using some of the things within the new interface to begin exploring goals that are even further-reaching, such as encouraging more interested readers to begin editing. With Vector on most Wikipedias, we didn’t change the skin for 12 years. This project, while improving usability for existing tools, did not add or remove any current tools from the interface. Once it’s done, it gives us the opportunity to work with communities to provide new and necessary tools both for readers and editors. This is a process that is ongoing and will be done with the feedback and collaboration of the community here and across other projects.
- SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying this as well. I am glad to hear that you will seek input and hopefully consensus from the community before implementing any significant updates. BilledMammal (talk) 22:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying your question! What we mean when we say that this is not the final version is:
- @BilledMammal, I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean? Could you elaborate on that? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SGrabarczuk (WMF) Firstly, thanks for your reply, I appreciate you being willing to answer so please don't feel like I'm jumping on you specifically, its just that you brought this here and I figured I should voice my concerns with a switch to V22. @Sdkb replied to my earlier comment, and I agreed so I modified it with their suggestion. I strongly believe though, even in this so called "meta" conversation about process, we shouldn't be ignoring the issues. Logged out editors are the most populous user, even though they have practically no voice in ProjectSpace discussions. If we are to implement a change to what they see (ie default settings), we need to address this more than other things, because those affected won't discuss it. Here's a quick list of what I've found.
- The TOC issues. They are being overriden against specific decisions by editors who chose to design a page a certain way. for example, see Alien, which is the first page alphabetically that uses {{TOC right}}, why should V22 override, there is no precedence in monobook, timeless, minerva which are the other skins installed on enwiki. I think overrides like that (and there may be others, this is just what I have seen conversation about above) should fall to editors, not to software.
- The look of it. Not to be mean to the team who worked very hard on it, and I appreciate what you've done for the MediaWiki community, but I feel that there are (in the current state) some things objectively worse. Why is there just blank space to the right of articles when V(legacy) reaches the edge of my screen? Why is there space blank to the left of the sidebar that is just white? The sidebar is highlighted in gray which only makes the large blank more obvious.
- In a similar vein to the blank space - the bar across the top is unbalanced - The user icon is all the way to the right over the blank space, but the arrow on the left is indented like the sidebar, it looks unbalanced.
- This one is a much more niche issue - and probably one that you will never work on (and don't need to at least for enwiki), but for a user such as myself who has a long sidebar - multiple scripts add links to mine, the TOC is impossible to find for multiple sections - for example on Butetown - I have scrolled down to section 4 (#Welsh language) before the TOC is caught up with me. This may be a concern though for other projects that have added links to their sidebar, such as my private mediawiki site, which has many sidebar links for my convenience.
- On the note that I have now spoken about your hard work in a less than stellar light, I again apologize if I came across as harsh, but these are things that I feel need to be addressed before such a big switch for such a prominent website in today's world. Again, I don't want to come across as rude, but I feel we shouldn't rush into this, and that as sdkb called it, the 'meta-process' should include the community's voice on the actual skin itself, and how it could work for enwiki, instead of just how it will be rolled out. (full disclosure: I havent looked at the deployment blockers you linked, because that's a long phab list, and I still don't quite understand all the lines on it, but I will and am open to the possibility that there are other concerns that are more pressing or maybe I'm a complete minority opinion.) Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:20, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I find myself agreeing with you here, particularly on aesthetic grounds, where it looks almost amateurish to me. I have not yet had the time to introspect on why I’m receiving that impression (perhaps I’ll update this later though), so take my take with a grain of salt. I definitely think it’s important not to rush this, considering the extreme outsized effect UX design seems to have on people. Yitz (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Yitzilitt, thanks for mentioning the aesthetic aspect. Look at this page. We simply haven't built that part yet, because we've been focused on changing the features. We'll implement the visual changes in the next couple of weeks. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 15:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hey @IAmChaos — thank you for your feedback, and apologies for my delayed response. We appreciate your honesty here.
- Regarding your comments about whitespace and the look of Vector 2022: I’m curious if you have been able to take a bit of time to sit with the new skin, and if so, if that has changed any of your opinions so far? The reason why I ask is: several editors who have given feedback and collaborated with us over the past two years have initially disliked Vector 2022 (often for similar reasons), and then after a few weeks of using it they have come to appreciate the changes that have been made, and even ended up liking it more than legacy Vector.
- Some design-specific notes regarding the whitespace: the majority of research on readability and reading comfort over the past ten years have concluded that limited line-length, and whitespace surrounding the text, are critical to a good reading experience (more info here). So we started by limiting the line-length, which ultimately leads to limiting the width of the entire interface (otherwise we would end up with even more whitespace). I know it’s a big adjustment, and it feels like there is a lot of “wasted” space. Fortunately there are several community members who have already begun to develop scripts and gadgets to address this, resulting in a more dense version of Vector 2022 (we were joking that it’s kind of like Monobook version of Vector 2022). You can find those gadgets and scripts here. From a process standpoint: the layout has been worked on and reviewed extensively by the entire WMF design team, supported by the majority of community members who have given feedback over the two year development process, and proven via testing to work better for both logged-in and logged-out people in various ways. So while it may not look aesthetically pleasing to you at this time, we wonder if you can go more in depth in terms of what makes it objectively worse. I am of course happy to discuss these topics further with you.
- Regarding your comment about the long sidebar pushing the table of contents down the page: fortunately this is a functional issue so it is easier for us to discuss and agree on. In case you have not yet seen it I invite you to first look at our latest prototype here: https://di-collapsible-menus.web.app/Flamingo. You will find that with the tools menu moved to the article toolbar the sidebar becomes much shorter (and please note that the tools menu is able to be pinned to the right side of the article for immediate access upon page load). Secondly, due to the infrequent use of the remaining items in the main menu, we expect that over time most logged-in people will discover their experience is improved by collapsing the main menu (allowing for immediate access to the table of contents upon page load), and then opening the main menu when needed.
- Thanks, AHollender (WMF) (talk) 23:27, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply @AHollender (WMF). I have looked a bit more, and noticed that I hadn't collapsed teh sidebar which addressed part of my issues mentioned above - particularly the long sidebar hiding the TOC. I will definitely look into the research on readability, I personally find it disconcerting as the software used at my day job is chock full of information too all four corners of my work desktop, all of which I need access to, so maybe it's a bit of Status quo bias in my comfortability with a crowded workspace, but I feel like after looking around there are a few places I don't quite feel fit together right. As for an example where it doesnt match up well: Clicking on Special:Random today brings me to an article in V22. The Categories box is the width of the article, followed immediately by a horizontal line the width of the screen and the footer info is full width across the bottom. I will definitely be looking into the community scripts with density, thanks for the link. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 03:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hey @IAmChaos — ok right, so this is related to your earlier comment about the width of the header. So how we've currently setup the page layout is:
- - there's a max-width for the entire interface, which is currently 1514px. This is the max-width that the site-header, sticky header, and footer all have
- - there is a max-width for the content, which is currently 1244px for pages that have a table of contents, or 960px for pages that do not. Again, this max-width is the result of first establishing a comfortable line-length for the article text, then finding a reasonable width for the table of contents. Once we move the tools menu to the other side of the page, if you decide to pin the tools menu this max-width will then be 1514px and everything will be balanced. To explain visually:
- Currently this is the situation, with the blank space you're noticing called out in red:
- However if your screen is less than 1325px wide (which most laptops are), there is no longer a blank space:
- Once we move the tools menu to the other side of the page, if you decide to pin the tools menu this max-width will then be 1514px and everything will be balanced:
- Unfortunately, aside from having the tools menu pinned, there's not really an easy way to make these max-widths match. The easiest thing to explore would be limiting the max-width of the site header to 1244px. However if we did this, and then you decided to pin the page tools, the max-width of the site header would have to change in order to stay aligned.
- I hope this is helpful. I can promise you that we are also concerned about possible imbalances in the page layout, are keeping a close eye on this, and are on the lookout for opportunities to achieve better harmony. Your comments are super helpful to us as we continue to explore our options here. AHollender (WMF) (talk) 16:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply @AHollender (WMF). I have looked a bit more, and noticed that I hadn't collapsed teh sidebar which addressed part of my issues mentioned above - particularly the long sidebar hiding the TOC. I will definitely look into the research on readability, I personally find it disconcerting as the software used at my day job is chock full of information too all four corners of my work desktop, all of which I need access to, so maybe it's a bit of Status quo bias in my comfortability with a crowded workspace, but I feel like after looking around there are a few places I don't quite feel fit together right. As for an example where it doesnt match up well: Clicking on Special:Random today brings me to an article in V22. The Categories box is the width of the article, followed immediately by a horizontal line the width of the screen and the footer info is full width across the bottom. I will definitely be looking into the community scripts with density, thanks for the link. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 03:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- It sounds like this product, if approved, will see regular releases. Will these releases also be discussed with the community or will they be boldly implemented? BilledMammal (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- A request for comment is an open discussion. It's just an open discussion that is geared towards assessing consensus rather than discussing something in the abstract, or as in this topic, having a discussion where you create a plan. So a request for comment, which often runs for 30 days but can go shorter if consensus is clear or longer if discussion remains active, advertised on WP:CENT feels like the right way of having this open discussion with the enwiki community. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- One extra thought. If there's a sense that consensus might be initially hard but there's a courage of conviction that the skin will genuinely help, some sort of testing, whether through a trial period (owing to enwiki's massive reach lots of data can be collected in shorts period of time), or through A/B testing, with clearly defined metrics could lead to a consensus that wouldn't be there without that data. This is something the Growth Team has done to large success. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:39, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I like a lot of what Skdb has said below, particularily that it will be an uphill battle for it to gain acceptance. Another factor is that the enwiki users being asked what they think about the change would generally be the heaviest users; casual readers won't see any future RfC's. These users are probably most accustomed to Wikipedia's current look and would most likely be relatively quick to oppose in my opinion. I also think that starting an RfC about 'Should Vector 2022 become the default after it is modified' (so that the RfCs aren't forcing the community to do things and don't have that appearance, also forestalling complete skin opposition in other RfCs) and then following up with one about 'what should those modifications be' could be a good idea. That assumes the community would reject the skin in its current form. —Danre98(talk^contribs) 00:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would second both thoughts by Barkeep. Specifically, (1) a full 30-day policy RfC, listed on CENT and following the requirements of WP:PROPOSAL, is the gold standard and the only realistic path to legitimacy for such a large change. (2) The change is much more likely to gain consensus with solid supporting data from A/B testing. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 00:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
FWIW, I am a moderate user (just under 10 edits per day average over the past year, but with over 5,000 pages on my watchlist). After using Monobook for many years, I switched to Vector 2022 a few months ago. It felt a bit wierd at first, but I am now quite comfortable with it. Of course, you are much more likely to hear from users that don't like it than from the rest of the spectrum of user reactions. - Donald Albury 15:56, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. Doug Weller talk 17:24, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Re BilledMammal, Barkeep49, IAmChaos, Sdkb comments on this page about consensus...YES. Changing the editing experience by default for Vector 2010 users without an Opt in....not my favorite and would probably guarantee a strong blowback. Changing the editing experience around here is always fraught with challenges and difficulties (Yeah, VisualEditor...), the chief among them, for me at least, is that I am an editor. I am not someone who approached Wikipedia editing from a developer/programmer/coding/data point of view, I'm just an editing/researching/writing fool and I think there are many of my kind amongst named Wikipedia accounts. I just stumbled upon this discussion by accident and probably wouldn't have known that a change was coming/had been instituted until it happened...
And a plea for the future... If the Vector 2022 skin comes online can we please have clear/easy-to-understand Opt-Out instructions? Maybe have them come up for six months afterwards for Vector 2010? Maybe have an Easy-to-find/Clearly-labeled FAQ for the changes and for Opting-Out? When the "Section edit/Reply to individual posts" change came online recently (I'm sorry but I can't quite remember what the name actually is/was) it was Not Easy to find how to disable/Opt-out from the change. Heh, at least it was not easy for me and I have over 35K posts... That's about all, I'll try to keep up and follow this discussion so it won't be another Big Surprise to me. Shearonink (talk) 17:01, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hey @Shearonink, first of all, I understand you. I became a Wikipedian years before I was hired by the Foundation. I personally, as well as other staffers at the Foundation, know that there are thousands of people not editing every day, not engaging in the Village Pump discussions, and finding it difficult to adjust to technical changes impacting the editing experience. So the link to opt-out is and will be available in the Vector 2022 version of the sidebar (left menu). As we wrote, we are also thinking about putting up banners before the launch. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 17:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- It is unfortunate that the en.wiki editor community has been determined through all obstacle to keep this embarrassment of a UI stuck in the year 2001. Despite many excellent proposals for reform of the Main Page, it remains a dull and outmoded layout; the left sidebar is cluttered and unusable by all who have not become accustomed through years of use to its contradictions. Here we have a vector that is far more modern, far more intuitive and far more pleasant for readers—the only problem is that editors who have been here for many years can't possibly approve of it because they've optimised their workflow within the current janky hackjob we have, and the slightest change threatens that.There are suggestions for changes to the skin that would be useful, but the website's design should not be motivated by the navel-gazing within the editor community. It is apparent in many editor discussions on design that articles are overly focused on how it looks on the editor's desktop view, when most readers will be on mobile. There are discussions for us to have on what the new layout will mean for ToC placement, but we cannot hash out every small detail before first agreeing the adoption of the new layout. There are complaints here about interaction with gadgets and Javascript: this means that those bits of code need to be changed, not the website layout. Many of these gadgets are operating under UI assumptions that are not some functional specification guarantee.We should not hold back on improvements due to complaints of a vocal minority, but go forwards with the quantitative testing-approved solutions to the problems identified by readers and editors (see below for the WMF's explanation of each stage of this project). — Bilorv (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
discussions on design that articles are overly focused on how it looks on the editor's desktop view, when most readers will be on mobile
- It's possible to give different views for mobile and desktop readers; I don't think we should be catering for mobile to the exception of desktop. I also note that even the current mobile view is less than ideal; I switch to desktop view when reading from mobile because even there it is easier to read the article in that format. BilledMammal (talk) 22:40, 16 July 2022 (UTC)- I think you've missed my point, BilledMammal, perhaps because I didn't make it clear enough. The issue is not that desktop layout doesn't matter, or that making a good desktop layout contradicts making a good mobile layout. It's that editors generally consider their own layout only (often a desktop layout and specific browser and specific skin) and give no thought to other layouts. As editors, we should be thinking as much about mobile (or more!) as about desktop. But we don't, and that is one example of how editors are not the best people to consult about UI changes. — Bilorv (talk) 08:03, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Ah, I see what you are saying now - I fully agree, we do need to consider this on a variety of platforms, and even if it isn't currently suitable for all platforms it may be suitable for some. Below, I have actually asked for some data to be presented separately for desktop and mobile users.BilledMammal (talk) 02:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC) Struck following clarification that this is only proposed for desktop. BilledMammal (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think you've missed my point, BilledMammal, perhaps because I didn't make it clear enough. The issue is not that desktop layout doesn't matter, or that making a good desktop layout contradicts making a good mobile layout. It's that editors generally consider their own layout only (often a desktop layout and specific browser and specific skin) and give no thought to other layouts. As editors, we should be thinking as much about mobile (or more!) as about desktop. But we don't, and that is one example of how editors are not the best people to consult about UI changes. — Bilorv (talk) 08:03, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Sdkb comments
I've been following/commenting on New Vector throughout the development process and have a lot to say here, so with apologies in advance for the length, I'm creating a subsection.
@SGrabarczuk (WMF) and @OVasileva (WMF): In some other circumstances, I've encouraged the WMF to plunge forward with seeking consensus for deployment, even though development isn't yet complete. My advice here is the opposite: we're not ready for that conversation yet. Users of any site are inherently biased against redesigns, and with Wikipedia's community consensus model, that gives you an unenviable uphill climb if you wish to succeed where past efforts have failed. Because of this, there will be a certain level of guaranteed opposition, and to overcome it, you'll need the design refined enough to get every winnable editor on your side. New Vector has improved a lot over legacy Vector, but I don't think it's at that point yet.
Some of the changes are fairly simple things. For instance, looking at the ToC to the left right now, it ends a ways before the bottom of the page, resulting in an ugly scrollbar that likely could've been avoided if it just extended the full vertical length of the page. Making refinements like that will help avert a gut "this is ugly" reaction and could making the difference between consensus and no consensus.
Other changes are more fundamental. The reduced screen width is something I'm fairly used to at this point, but it seems to be a sticking point with many others. Given that, I think you need to decide how many of the New Vector changes are segmentable. I.e. if the community says "we're okay with everything in New Vector except the screen width" or "we're okay with everything except the ToC", will you be able to implement that? I know you'd prefer to be able to implement everything, but if it has to be an all-or-nothing decision it'll make your task all the harder, because opposition to any one element could foil the entire proposal. So I'd put some thought into what can be segmented out vs. what has to be bundled.
On the ToC, getting it to display so that it doesn't require scrolling in normal cases, even when the main menu is uncollapsed, is something that I predict will be crucial for getting community buy-in. We've been discussing it on MediaWiki, so let's continue the conversation centralized there.
Lastly, I'll reiterate that I think that the upper right corner is going to be a sticking point. We've previously discussed (with Izno and others) how the decision to commandeer that spot for the language switcher appears to have been made based on user research that began with the baseline assumption that making it more prominent was an inherent good, ignoring the other elements that currently occupy that space and that are also important. In your most recent newsletter, you write that the page tabs/title switch moved the language button into an even more prominent position at the top of the page
, once again making this assumption, and once again ignoring that you're pushing the other elements down yet another row. When we've brought up those elements, namely coordinates and good/featured article icons, you've declared them out of scope for your project. I don't understand that — you consider it in scope to push them out but not to care about where they're pushed to? Helping readers understand through the site design which articles have undergone a peer review is absolutely crucial for information literacy, and I really wish you'd convene one of your focus groups to understand whether they have any clue about GA/FA currently (my guess is no) and, if not, what can be done through design to fix that (my suggestion is moving them left next to the article name).
If you manage to address these sorts of things, I think it'd be possible to start a productive conversation on making New Vector a default few months from now. That conversation could incorporate multiple steps as you suggest, and it'd probably best take the form of a CENT-listed and watchlist-advertised RfC. If you start it prematurely, though, I think the combination of reasonable and knee-jerk concerns will result in failure to reach consensus, which would set you back. (And I hope it goes without saying that attempting to push through the changes without community consensus would result in a Framgate-level firestorm.) Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:34, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdkb Thank you for your thoughtful reply and thoughts here, and for being super helpful and giving us feedback throughout the process! Apologies for the long response time - we’ve been monitoring this conversation and replying to quick questions, but wanted to sit with your comment for a little bit to make sure we can address all the points you raised. Here are some of our thoughts and answers - curious what you think as well:
- Thank you for flagging that you think the conversation feels a bit premature. We're very excited to begin bringing the changes to readers as well as to flag where the issues are early on, but agree that the next step would be to continue at a longer timeline than the three weeks we had originally suggested. We would like to continue the conversation by identifying which blockers we have for deployment, making sure that our understanding of “finalized” matches that of the community here. In future iterations of this conversation, we’ll also make sure to highlight this point so as to avoid confusion.
- ToC issues. Just adding note here, but also agree we can continue discussing in the other thread - sorry for the repetition! We’re currently working on some improvements to the ToC for narrow screens, tracked in phab:T306660 which we hope to have live next week. In these, we have improved the styling of the ToC so that the scrollbar does not appear unless actively scrolling - I agree it’s pretty unsightly. Does that alleviate your concerns somewhat? In the future, after the deployment, we plan on separating more tools out from the main menu, such as the page specific tools. These changes will also allow all menus to be individually collapsible and can also serve as the first step to a more highly customizable system. They will also shorten the main menu significantly. That said, as these changes are pretty technically significant, we would like to confirm the plans for the new default before beginning this next part of our desktop development.
- On the reduced width - I agree this is tricky. We do have some capability to offer customization, but this becomes more difficult to maintain and test with every option we add. To us, the best case scenario would be to continue to promote the use of individual gadgets and scripts among editors, but if this is deemed insufficient, we can begin scoping out a potential setting for logged-in users. That said, it’s probably not something we’d be able to offer for every feature - it would depend on the request, how difficult it would be to maintain, and how independent it is of the other changes we’ve introduced.
- Coordinates and upper-right corner issues. This is a priority for us right now as well. In terms of the prominence of language switching - getting higher priority for languages is an important aspect of the project’s goals which are to focus on growing our readership and communities globally. This includes an enormous audience for whom language switching is crucial, and who tend to use a global language, such as English or French, in addition to their local language, for learning on a daily basis. We want to make sure we’re taking their needs into account as much as those who are native speakers. That said, we need to make sure the other elements like indicators and coordinates work well with the new location. This has been tricky as the location of these has traditionally been in the hands of the community. Our view on this is that the order should be as follows (vertically): language button, tabs, indicators and coordinates. Indicators and coordinates should appear on the same line and preferably, coordinates would be treated as indicators. We'll be adding some more thoughts and hopefully some ideas for next steps on the current conversation in VPT.
- Hope this is helpful! We’ll continue getting into the details on the individual threads as well, but can also definitely keep talking here too. Also we hope to post a longer response to everyone that’s been involved in the conversation here later today on the next steps in the process. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 12:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- @OVasileva (WMF), thanks for the reply! On the ToC scrollbar, it's not the scrollbar itself that's ugly so much as the fact that you have to scroll to see the full ToC. The entire point of a ToC is to let you see a summary of a page without having to scroll through it all, so if you can't do that, why have a ToC at all? This is certainly an issue for larger articles or talk pages. One possible solution to explore is having the ToC width double when you hover the cursor over it so that less needs to go onto two lines; does that make sense as a concept? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think that spacing the TOC entries out less would be a good idea as well. The current TOC is just a bit too "fluffy" in my opinion. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:14, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- @OVasileva (WMF), thanks for the reply! On the ToC scrollbar, it's not the scrollbar itself that's ugly so much as the fact that you have to scroll to see the full ToC. The entire point of a ToC is to let you see a summary of a page without having to scroll through it all, so if you can't do that, why have a ToC at all? This is certainly an issue for larger articles or talk pages. One possible solution to explore is having the ToC width double when you hover the cursor over it so that less needs to go onto two lines; does that make sense as a concept? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
UX research and usability testing
Note, I am an engineer that uses terminals a lot and I still use the MonoBook skin. But, here's a question. If moving to the new Vector skin is controversial, why not commission and publish an extensive user-centered design case study to prove that the Vector 2022 is actually better. Then the community will have to see reason. (Maybe) Andrevan@ 03:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Hey all,
A number of you have asked us about our research and testing (both Qualitative and Quantitative), so we wanted to write a pretty detailed and long comment to address this. We wanted to confirm that not only the Growth team conducts complex testing :) This is more like the standard for big projects now. Each feature change has gone through the process below (which we also described in the Signpost in April). This is what gives us the confidence that everything we have built so far is, in principle, an improvement. At the same time, we acknowledge that there's room for more adjustments.
- Problem identification research with both readers and editors - during this phase, in 2019, we studied the way people used the site and identified the largest usability issues as well as issues to exploring the site further, becoming more engaged with reading or editing. We did this by interviewing readers and editors across multiple countries and locations. (See the links: Research and design: Phase 1, Research and design: Phase 2.)
- Prototype development and testing - this is when we build out the ideas of a feature and begin showing solutions to our audiences. Each feature was tested with readers and editors through interviews and wider rounds of prototype testing. Generally, for testing with editors we used central notice across multiple language Wikipedias,
including English Wikipedia,
so that we can get the widest audience possible. Each prototype was tested by approximately 200 editors on average. (Example) - Refining and building - we then take the feedback from the prototype testing and refine or change the prototype based on what needs were identified in the prototype testing. In some cases, we ask for additional feedback during this process so that we’re sure we’re making the right decisions.
- A/B testing and other quantitative testing on pilot (early adopter) wikis - we perform a quantitative test for whether the feature works as expected based on the criteria of success we have previously defined. For example, the sticky header was designed to decrease scrolling to the top of the page. We gave the sticky header to 50% of users and compared them to the other 50% for two weeks. After two weeks we compared the results and identified that people who had the sticky header were indeed scrolling less to the top of the page in order to select any of the tools available there. If we get negative results from our test, we change the feature and test again. This is the "beta" phase.
During this phase, we also monitor usage across all wikis, including English Wikipedia, where many account holders are already using the new skin.
- Finally, we deploy Vector 2022 on more wikis and continue monitoring the way people are using it so that we can flag any issues. In this phase, Vector 2022 isn't "beta" anymore. It's more like a B-class article. Different wikis have different thresholds for B-class, and we believe that in the case of English Wikipedia, we'll be there when the visual refinements and other deployment blockers are ready.
We are currently working on an easy way to explore all of the above data and research (and are welcome to suggestions on the best format). For now, the best way to learn more about the testing is:
- From Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements/Features, select the feature you are most interested in
- Within that feature page, refer to the Qualitative or Quantitative testing section to see the results and our conclusions
Just so we can have a short version of this as a part of this conversation, we're posting a quick list of our learnings:
The collapsible sidebar allows people to collapse the main menu in order to focus on reading - helping to find the information needed without distraction
- Qualitative testing with readers and editors on the usefulness of the sidebar and our navigation. Our conclusion here was that the number of different tools provided on the page by default was found to be overwhelming by readers and actively discouraged them from reading, but also from exploring the functionality within the page, an effect opposite of what the exposure of multiple tools aims to do. More details can be found on our feature page for the collapsible sidebar, as well as within the original report
- Quantitative testing on the usage behavior of the sidebar itself, in both its open and collapsed states (see the results). When using the sidebar, logged-out users are much more likely to collapse it and, once collapsed, to keep it collapsed. In addition, the rate of un-collapsing also indicated that users are aware that, were they to need to navigate to an item in the sidebar, that option was available to them.
We have introduced a maximum line width to articles. Research has shown that limiting the width of long-form text leads to a more comfortable reading experience, and better retention of the content itself.
- Our studies with readers showed that readability was an issue with the current interface, in particular being able to focus on the content
- Pages that are not in a long-text format
(such as diffs, special pages, page history)
will be presented at full-width as before - Logged-in users who wish to read articles at full width are welcomed to set up a script or gadget that will allow for this
, such as this one
- For more details on research and motivation, see ourresearch section
The new search widget includes important context that makes it easier for users to find the query they are looking for by adding images and descriptions for each search results
- People had difficulties finding the correct result using our previous search
- Our A/B testing showed that adding the new search can lead to a 30% increase in search sessions initiated on the wikis we tested
The new language switching tools are more prominently-placed than before. They allow multilingual readers and editors to find their preferred language more easily.
- Readers did not previously know they could switch languages from the page, even if they read multiple language wikis habitually. They would use external search engines to find the correct article instead.
- In our user testing, new readers were able to find the new location much quicker than the previous location
- Our qualitative testing showed that this was more difficult to find for existing users who were used to the previous location, leading us to iterate on the feature. We have since added a note in the previous location of the language switcher and made the button itself a more prominent color
- In the future, we will continue exploration on languages, considering potentially a direct link to a person’s most frequent languages
The new user menu provides links to all links related to the user in one place. This reduces confusion between general navigation links and specific user links
- New editors were confused between the links at the top of the page and other navigation. They didn’t know these links pertained to their personal tools
- Our user testing with readers and editors showed that people found it intuitive that all user links are in a single menu and that the menu is easy to find
- In our prototype testing, 27 out of 38 (71%) editors and other logged-in users showed strong positive experiences with the user menu
- Based on community requests and current data, we iterated on the feature and moved the watchlist link out of the user menu for easier access
The sticky header gives access to functionality that is used most frequently that was previously only accessible at the top of the page. The goal is for people to scroll less and thus, save time
- Our A/B test showed an average 15% decrease in scrolls to the top per session for logged-in users within the 15 pilot wikis we tested on
OVasileva (WMF), SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:14, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting this; there is a lot to read through so I have only reviewed two features so far, sticky header and persistent table of contents. For the latter, it appears you have yet to conduct A/B testing but when you do I would be interested in seeing data on the percentage of page views that involve at least one click on the table of contents, and the percentage of page views that involve at least two clicks on the table of contents.
In addition, I would be interested in seeing separate data for mobile users and desktop users.Struck following clarification that this is only proposed for desktop. BilledMammal (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2022 (UTC) - For the former, I see you have already conducted A/B testing but there is some additional data that I would like to see:
- Currently, you show the clicks per session and clicks per page only when skinversion=2; I would be interested in comparing this to the clicks per session and clicks per page for skinversion=1. My hypothesis would be that the sticky_header makes it more convenient for readers to access these links, and thus increases the number of readers using them.
- The rate of accidental clicks. Assessing this would vary by link, but I have a few ideas and am happy to discuss further if required. My hypothesis would be that the sticky_header increases the number of accidental clicks, and we would need to consider whether this increase offsets the benefits of the sticky_header.
- Time on page, time on page when limited to pageviews that do not involve following a header link, and time on page when limited to pageviews that involve following a header link. Clicks on pages with stickyHeaderDisabled would need to be split between those that involve a scroll back and those that do not. My hypothesis would be that it does not affect time on page for readers who do not click on a header link, and that it has a small but relatively constant absolute decrease in time on page for readers who follow links on the sticky_header compared to those who scroll back to click on a header link. The former would suggest that this does not negatively affect the reading experience, the latter would suggest that that this has a positive effect on the reading experience for readers who are wanting to navigate to one of those pages.
- Alternatively, is there raw data that we can look at from the A/B testing for the sticky header? I suspect it won't answer #2, but it may contain information on #1 and #3.
- BilledMammal (talk) 03:33, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting this; there is a lot to read through so I have only reviewed two features so far, sticky header and persistent table of contents. For the latter, it appears you have yet to conduct A/B testing but when you do I would be interested in seeing data on the percentage of page views that involve at least one click on the table of contents, and the percentage of page views that involve at least two clicks on the table of contents.
Has anyone actually used the link given at the very top as "see what it looks like" on a smartphone? For me, instead of getting an encyclopedia article, I get a full screen with the sidebar and no encyclopedic content until I scroll down. Can other people please test this? Because this seems like a quite major bug or worse experience than the current mobile version. Fram (talk) 08:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Same bug here but only if I'm using the mobile view in a browser. If I'm using the desktop view on mobile it works fine (and actually looks quite nice). With this said, it may be a non-issue as I've not read anything about mobile transitioning away from MinervaNeue. Anarchyte (talk) 09:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- FWIW, I see the same bug as Fram does, on both a Macbook laptop (not mobile) running Safari 14.1.2, and on an Android phone running Opera 69.3.3606.65458 in desktop mode. I just see a banner at the top, a sidebar on the left, and a big blank space on the rest of the page. I have to scroll way down past the sidebar before I see any content, and the content fills the full window width (that is, the sidebar is not to the left of the content, it's above it). There's also no visible TOC on the left side or anywhere, just a hamburger icon that I have to click on to open a TOC. I do not see this bug on Firefox 102.0.1 on a Windows machine. It seems there is still some browser dependency that makes this skin very unpleasant to use in some environments, and not only mobile ones. CodeTalker (talk) 00:51, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Confirming I see the same thing as Fram in mobile view on Firefox 101.2.0 on Android 11. Desktop view looks intentional. Folly Mox (talk) 18:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks great to me (tablet, mobile & desktop) if the sidebar's collapsed. ― Qwerfjkltalk 21:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is indeed what you see if you force the mobile website to the desktop website/skin (not something anyone but a few realistically is doing) and you open the menu (for me the menu is collapsed by default on that size). While this desktop skin is more compatible with mobile and will eventually probably be fully suitable for mobile, that has not been the primary target of these changes. I believe there is an invite on its talk page asking people for feedback and ideas on what the menu SHOULD look like on mobile. But don't forget that lots of the content is not mobile compatible (minerva on the mobile site has all kinds of hacks to make content not break out of the mobile constraints) and Vector 2022 doesn't have those hacks. So for the immediate future it is still better to use the mobile website on mobile. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:49, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Apparently you get the same bad results on a Macbook laptop though, see above... Fram (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I've just tested this on a Macbook in Safari and can't reproduce the issue - the link destination looks exactly as intended. Sam Walton (talk) 10:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- And of course, nothing in the opening statement of this section said anything about this not being for mobile and only for desktop, it just said that this would become the default, full stop. Fram (talk) 09:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just to confirm, this conversation concerns changing the skin on desktop only. This will affect the desktop view on mobile as well, but not the current default mobile view. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 13:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Apparently you get the same bad results on a Macbook laptop though, see above... Fram (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Easy switching skins
After I switched to the 2022 skin, I noticed a new link "Switch to old look" in the left margin, right below the "donate" link. But in the legacy (current) skin there is no corresponding "Switch to new look" link. Why not? wbm1058 (talk) 05:21, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058 that is a temporary link designed to help anyone that is all of a sudden lost in the change to get back to being able to get around again. — xaosflux Talk 11:40, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- I understand that, but the purpose of the "Switch to new look" link is to give readers a heads up that the change is coming so that they can check it out if they opt to. Then hopefully feedback on the changes is given in a manageable trickle so that things can be fixed before a hard change is made that causes an angry mob reaction. Not everyone is as tuned into this as you are; the only way I've become aware of this is from seeing the change in the French and other foreign-language versions. Not everyone is a power-user like me who reads foreign language wikis using Google Translate.
- Will the French 2022 skin and the English 2022 skin be the same width, or is the English 2022 skin wider than the French 2022 skin? – wbm1058 (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058 by default all of the vector-2022 skinned sites will have a similar look and feel. We have a opt-in gadget available if you want vector-2022 but in wide mode (mostly for wide screen desktop monitor users); it is still getting some improvements. — xaosflux Talk 16:01, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks like this. — xaosflux Talk 16:04, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wide vector-2022 on a page with a TOC , there is work pending on a collapsible TOC for vector-2022 overall still. — xaosflux Talk 16:06, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- And for users like me, will it be easy to use the version suitable for a large monitor on my PC and the other on my iPad. Doug Weller talk 17:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wide vector-2022 on a page with a TOC , there is work pending on a collapsible TOC for vector-2022 overall still. — xaosflux Talk 16:06, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks like this. — xaosflux Talk 16:04, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Wbm1058 by default all of the vector-2022 skinned sites will have a similar look and feel. We have a opt-in gadget available if you want vector-2022 but in wide mode (mostly for wide screen desktop monitor users); it is still getting some improvements. — xaosflux Talk 16:01, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a great question, @Wbm1058. When we made the decision to put this link into the sidebar, the project was on an early stage. Now I think we could revisit this and put an equivalent link into the legacy Vector sidebar. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Vector 2022 office hours
Join an online meeting with the team working on the Desktop Improvements! It will take place on 26 July 2022 at 12:00 UTC and 19:00 UTC on Zoom. Click here to join. Meeting ID: 5304280674. Dial by your location.
Read more. See you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hey all, wanted to ping @Sdkb, @Xaosflux, @Bilorv, @TheDJ, @BilledMammal, @IAmChaos, @Jonesey95 and anyone else who is curious - we're hosting office hours later today - if you're interested and have the time, you're welcome to join to talk through questions, comments, and the plan overall. In terms of the conversation here, we plan on answering open questions (we know there's still a few), summarizing the discussion, and identifying some next steps over the next couple of days. OVasileva (WMF) (talk) 08:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just want to say it's great that you are offering this and I hope people take you up on it! Andrevan@ 21:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
An update after two weeks of discussion
1. What should the process look like?
Hey all,
Thank you for your feedback. We recognize that this is a large and important change to our interfaces that will affect the default experience for millions of people. We appreciate your patience in this discussion on how to proceed in the best way possible for our readers, contributors, and communities.
We will try to summarize the feedback we have gotten so far, and continue with identifying next steps. Based on your feedback, we would like to propose the following process:
- Agree on what changes need to be made to the interface before the final deployment conversation
- Continue with a conversation focused on building consensus around deployment
- Deploy and continue with other improvements and requests that were agreed to be non-crucial for deployment
Does this seem in-line with your expectations? Do you have any concerns?
2. Why are these changes improvements?
Many of you were curios about the changes, and especially expressed interest in getting more details on our data and process. Below, we are outlining a bit about our process, as well as the data we have collected that proves that each feature is an improvement. Ping: @BilledMammal, @IAmChaos, Barkeep49, KevinL, Andrevan.
TLDR: Every one of our changes goes through a rigorous process of research, development, qualitative and quantitative testing with readers and editors, prototype testing with editors (across 30+ language communities), iteration, and post-deployment monitoring. When a change does not meet the success criteria or does not perform better than the existing version of a tool, we either stop developing the change or iterate until performance is improved.
We believe that the changes we have made will be crucial to making the site more welcoming and easier to use to new readers and editors.
When compared to the older version of the Vector skin, Vector 2022 is proven to:
- Save time while reading and editing (measured by decreases in scrolling to the top of the page after the introduction of sticky header and table of contents)
- Increase exploration within a given page (measured by increased clicks to the table of contents)
- Improve readability (measured via collapsible sidebar usage)
- Improve the discovery of new content (measured by an increase in searching)
You will find more details in the section #UX research and usability testing. We have tweaked the existing comment a bit.
- Thank you for spending the time to write this out. My concern is that you are focused too much on testing for the change you intended to make and in doing so miss the broader impact. Because of this I feel your analysis only proves that you brought about your intended change, rather than proving
that each feature is an improvement
. - For example, consider the sticky header. Here, the goal is to (1) improve the user experience, by (2) saving reader time, by (3) reducing the amount of scrolling to the top that they need to do.
- However, you only test for (3); you then infer (2) from the positive result for (3), and infer (1) from the positive result for (2). Testing directly for user experience is difficult, but to reduce the risk of errors the goal should be to get as close to that level as possible, and in this case it means testing for (2) rather than (3); if you look at #3 in my previous comment you will see that I am requesting data that should give us an answer to (2).
- In addition, you assume there are no negative impacts from the change. This isn't a safe assumption, and with #2 and #3 of my previous comment I request data that will allow us to consider this possibility. BilledMammal (talk) 06:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
3. Why are we having this conversation while development is still happening?
We are eager to bring the improvements mentioned above to our readers. Currently, many new readers do not feel welcome by the interface as it is, and this is something we hope to solve as soon as possible. We recognize that no feature or skin will ever be perfect, and there will always be room for improvement. As we mentioned above, the skin, in its current form, is already a significant improvement over the current state.
The final state of the skin also depends on the conversation we’re having right now. There are many possible improvements or ideas for changes we can build and focus on. We’d like to discuss which of these are most important to the community as we proceed to implement and put the last touches on this version of the skin.
Finally, as we mentioned in a previous post, once deployed, we plan on continuing to work on the desktop experience. This project opens more possibilities for the future and gives us the opportunity to work with communities to provide new and necessary tools both for readers and editors. This is an ongoing process and it will be done with the feedback and collaboration of the community here and across other projects.
4. What changes will be made before deployment?
Our request for you is to review the list below and let us know if it looks correct in your opinion. What should be added? What should be removed? Do you have any questions on what each of these items will and will not include?
As a part of these conversations, we plan on placing requests into three categories. This categorization is based on our research, previous conversations with communities and prototype testing, as well as the feedback we received from all of you last week. These categories are flexible. We need your feedback to move something from one category to another, as well as to add items to each category.
- Issues we would like to address prior to the deployment
- Table of Contents collapsing and narrow screens behavior (@xaosflux, @sdkb). We are working on this and hope to have it ready within the next few weeks (more details in T306660)
- Visual refinements (@IAmChaos, @Terasail). We are working on this and we will finish before deployment, with the first part landing next week (week of August 1). To see more details on what visual refinements we are and how we worked with communities to define these, please see this page
- Making a decision on ToC handling and magic words (ping @xaosflux, @izno, @IAmChaos, @Anarchyte). We are doing a more in-depth review of magic words and hope to come to you all with a proposal on what (if anything) we think would be best to change. Our sense is that for some of these use cases, the new ToC has solved the initial issues for them existing. We’re interested in finding out which use cases this is not the case for, and providing a solution for those. To confirm, however, the __NOTOC__ magic word will continue to work, as will the templates creating the ToC based on __NOTOC__ such as {{horizontal toc}}
- Coordinates display and other indicator issues. We would like to ensure that coordinates do not overlap with any existing indicators and that the area in the top right corner of the article is well-organized (T281974). Special thanks to Xaosflux, Izno, theDJ, Sdkb, AlexisJazz for participating in the discussion and helping us identify next steps. The conversation around coordinates continues in VPT#Coordinates in Vector 2022
- Making it easy to opt-in and opt-out (@Shearonink, @wbm1058) - we have a button in the sidebar, which allows for easy recognition of opting out. Opting in is, however, only available through the preferences page. We’d like to explore the possibility of running banners that explain that the change was made and provide opt-out instructions as well. Similarly, prior to the change, we’d like to run more banners that encourage people to opt in and give us feedback
- Issues we would like to address after the deployment
- ToC/sidebar length and the separation of page tools from wiki-wide tools (@sdkb). This is a significant change that we would like to move forward with once we have everyone using the new default. This will be the best way to study and build out customizations for the various use cases (example: the ability to add admin tools or gadgets like Twinkle to the menu)
- Issues that will not be addressed at this time (issues that are not part of the Desktop Improvements project, belonging to other teams, etc.)
5. What should the deployment conversation look like?
Some of you said that an RfC would be the best approach for the conversation around deployment. Does that sound like the right course of action? One thing that we have been thinking about is ways to include the voices of readers into the decision making process. We are planning to run surveys asking readers what they think about the new skin compared to the old one. How can we incorporate their thoughts into the conversation?
OVasileva (WMF), SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 01:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- Amazing work! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- You could run a banner that provides an opt-in button for the new skin only visible for unregistered users, but then I'm not sure how they'd be able to leave feedback anonymously. The RfC could then be run in parallel with this campaign, with the ultimate decision relying on the inputs from both. Anarchyte (talk) 06:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
with the ultimate decision relying on the inputs from both
How would this work? Who gets to decide how much to weight each if they conflict? I don't foresee the community willingly relinquishing control, so as much as I'm concerned that the community isn't going to follow WP:READER and is going to overprivilege editor needs, I think BilledMammal's suggestion is the only practical way to take reader input into account. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)- I echo Sdkb's concerns. The skin should only be implemented if there is an affirmative consensus to switch to the new skin, especially since the new skin (as it currently stands) will make breaking changes to Wikipedia editor tools and Wikipedia article layouts. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 23:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- To incorporate their thoughts I would suggest running the surveys prior to the RfC, and allowing editors to assess the results of the survey when making their decision. In the end, this needs to be based on the consensus of the community, as assessed by the community. For this assessment I would suggest one thing; asking for a panel close, such as was done for the 2021 review of RfA. BilledMammal (talk) 07:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's premature to decide in advance that multiple closers are needed. Most discussions can be evaluated adequately by a single closer. The 2021 RfA review was by design open-ended in the number of proposals that could be made, and thus unconstrained in the variety of rationales, which were primarily opinion-based, since often there's no way to collect data without actually trying a change to the process. It remains to be seen if an RfC on a new skin will have these or other characteristics such that more than one closer might be desirable. Ideally, if the development process goes as planned, there won't be an RfC unless there is already widespread support for the changes in question, much like the default deployment of the reply tool feature. isaacl (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- My suggestion was mainly to reduce the chance of the close being appealed at AN; I don't want us to have a situation where the discussion is closed with a consensus to implement the change, only to have the AN overturn the close. Normally such a situation would not be problematic but in this case I believe it would be due to the scale, prominence, and technical nature of the change. BilledMammal (talk) 08:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's premature to decide in advance that multiple closers are needed. Most discussions can be evaluated adequately by a single closer. The 2021 RfA review was by design open-ended in the number of proposals that could be made, and thus unconstrained in the variety of rationales, which were primarily opinion-based, since often there's no way to collect data without actually trying a change to the process. It remains to be seen if an RfC on a new skin will have these or other characteristics such that more than one closer might be desirable. Ideally, if the development process goes as planned, there won't be an RfC unless there is already widespread support for the changes in question, much like the default deployment of the reply tool feature. isaacl (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Two pretty glaring issues
Ok, so, first, the collapsable toc. if you say readers find it easy, cool, but to me it seems like we're burying our navigational tools. Which to me seems like a really really bad idea. This feels more like something done for phones to save screen real estate, than what would need to be done on a computer monitor, but whatever. If that's a fail, we'll probably find out soon enough by analyzing number of clicks on toc/side menu links.
That aside, not having the user talk page right next to the user's name is also a really bad idea.
We've already had issues with the mobile interface where it was difficult for new editors to know they were receiving warnings, because they didn't see they had a user talk page.
I realize we have our alerts system, but a direct link to the user talk page seems paramount.
if space is an issue, move the watchlist to the drop down, next to contributions (they both should be at the top of the drop down)..
But "talk" should be right next to the user name, before the notice icons. to make it clear that it's the user's talk page. - jc37 11:51, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
If that's a fail, we'll probably find out soon enough by analyzing number of clicks on toc/side menu links.
That is a good point, and A/B testing should include data on this. Hopefully the WMF will be willing to engage with this and the other requests for data I made above. BilledMammal (talk) 00:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)- Can u explain ur thoughts further? Because talk page is a concept completely unique to us, id think. So why would that be more recognizable to ppl than a notice in the notice menu? More recognizable outside of a user’s menu than within the menu ? Isn’t it just that ppl simply need to learn these things no matter where they are ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:58, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
About mass shootings
Actually in America they are becoming more and more serious, and the only reasons are irresponsible news media and social media users and platforms, according to the American Psychological Association. However, the English Wikipedia community may be partially responsible as well, since mass shootings sometimes appear on the Main Page (for example, 2012 Aurora, Colorado shooting is included in the "On this day" section today), and there is evidence that giving a mass shooting massive attention can cause contagion. So I propose that such tragedies (excl. state violence, events accompanied with a military operation and more-than-three perpetrator ones) be excluded from the Main Page, except for "From today's featured article" and "Did you know ..." to mitigate the current mass shooting epidemic in America. RekishiEJ (talk) 16:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC) altered a bit 10:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a classic WP:NOTCENSORED situation. Wikipedia does not hide things that are upsetting or controversial as long as they are reliably sourced. It would lead to a form of gesture politics, because the information would be freely available elsewhere, eg television and newspaper headlines.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- While I, in principle, agree/understand where RekishiEJ is coming with this, Ianmacm is correct about WP:NOTCENSORED. TheSandDoctor Talk 18:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @RekishiEJ: We need a discourse. WP:NOTCENSORED is not the end of the consideration, but only one thread in a massive conversation going in many directions. While I think NOTCENSORED is a guiding principle, we have related conversations such as how explicit Wikipedia should be in discussing suicide or other topics where research says that exposure to information encourages unwanted behavior. I support you or anyone else starting an essay, seeking prior conversation, and identifying other perspectives. We also have a Wikipedia article on the issue that could inform thought - Effects of violence in mass media. It has come up in the past as to whether terrorists are allowed to share images of crime that we republish in Wikipedia. I the discussion has hardly begun. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry: Another article significantly better inform thought about how mass shootings should be presented here - mass shooting contagion.--RekishiEJ (talk) 10:21, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- "The only reasons [that mass shootings are becoming more serious] are irresponsible news media and social media users and platforms" is flat-out wrong. Putting that aside, if someone is going to do a copycat shooting, it's generally because they have a community egging them on via platforms like Discord, Telegram, 8chan, etc. It is almost definitely not because they happened to see an article about shootings on Wikipedia and independently decided it was cool. (I sincerely hope to never be proven wrong about this.) Gnomingstuff (talk) 20:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Gnomingstuff: The statement which you think is wrong is taken from [1], which reflects the consensus of the American Psychological Association on mass shooting contagion.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC) altered a little 12:51, 25 July 2022 (UTC) altered a little again 11:18, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- What the paper says is that media coverage "may ultimately be contributing to the perpetuation of [mass shootings]" and names three other contributing factors, which is quite a different statement than "the only reasons mass shootings are increasing are news media." It also doesn't recommend anything analogous to not putting these articles on the main page. Gnomingstuff (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think we shouldn't mention the name or race of the shooter on the front page similar to this] .Agree that WP is an unlikely source for mass shootings, but I don't see any reason why a shooter would not have edited WP. Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 11:19, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- In fact, we know a good number of them did – among them James von Brunn, John Patrick Bedell, Anders Breivik, Adam Lanza, Elliot Rodger and Raymond Spencer. Most only made a few edits, but still -- that is more than most people do. Andreas JN466 16:56, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Gnomingstuff: The statement which you think is wrong is taken from [1], which reflects the consensus of the American Psychological Association on mass shooting contagion.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC) altered a little 12:51, 25 July 2022 (UTC) altered a little again 11:18, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I think that they should be treated as any other even of similar significance, including the main page. But to not follow the US media practice of reporting on covering each one ~50 times...each day for for 20 days afterwards and then 30 more times in following years for anniversaries etc.. This increases the issues, perceptions and problems described in the OP.North8000 (talk) 22:24, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- The news media decided that it would not show the videos of the planes hitting the towers over and over again in the September 11 attacks. Some of the material is disturbing and upsetting so caution is needed. What is needed is a way of addressing this without trying to hide things that are legitimate matters of news and encyclopedic coverage.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- The news media decided that it would not show the videos of the planes hitting the towers over and over again
- You could not avoid those videos if you tried back in 2001. They were everywhere.
- Anyway, that's a different discussion. IanMacM is correct that this is ultimately a WP:NOTCENSORED issue. Americans will continue mass murdering themselves, and it will continue to be news. Much like bombings and other acts of terrorism, accidents, and other disasters will continue to occur, and continue to be news. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 10:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- @North8000: "the US media practice of reporting on covering each one ~50 times...each day for for 20 days afterwards and then 30 more times in following years for anniversaries etc.."? You mean after a mass shooting receives national coverage in the U.S., it is reported by American news outlets from Day 1 to Day 20, and during this period it is repeated at most 49 times everyday (which seems impossible), and in the following years it is repeated 30 times each year? Sorry I don't understand what you mean very well.--RekishiEJ (talk) 08:36, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- @RekishiEJ, I believe North8000 means it's covered around 50 times (by various different news outlets) for 20 days, and then over the anniversaries etc. it is covered 30 more times (in total). If that's still implausible, it could also be exaggeration. ― Qwerfjkltalk 09:01, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was a little vague, but what I meant roughly speaking is that each larger scale mass shooting gets covered by national media on about (rough guess) 50 days. And as a rough example, daily coverage for each of the 20 days following the event and then on about an additional 30 different days spread amongst during the following years. (e.g. the 1 month anniversary, the 2 month anniversary, 3 month anniversary, 8th year anniversary, interviews about the event with survivors and friends / families of victims about upcoming anniversaries, coverage triggered by their actions in subsequent months and years etc. North8000 (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- In short, we should cover them when they are current news, but not amp up coverage (as the US media does) via anniversaries etc. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify further, the "current news" coverage should be subject to the usual criteria, such as Masem described in the next post. North8000 (talk) 17:17, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- In short, we should cover them when they are current news, but not amp up coverage (as the US media does) via anniversaries etc. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was a little vague, but what I meant roughly speaking is that each larger scale mass shooting gets covered by national media on about (rough guess) 50 days. And as a rough example, daily coverage for each of the 20 days following the event and then on about an additional 30 different days spread amongst during the following years. (e.g. the 1 month anniversary, the 2 month anniversary, 3 month anniversary, 8th year anniversary, interviews about the event with survivors and friends / families of victims about upcoming anniversaries, coverage triggered by their actions in subsequent months and years etc. North8000 (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- @RekishiEJ, I believe North8000 means it's covered around 50 times (by various different news outlets) for 20 days, and then over the anniversaries etc. it is covered 30 more times (in total). If that's still implausible, it could also be exaggeration. ― Qwerfjkltalk 09:01, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would say that we should be trying to recall that WP:NOT#NEWS exists and that WP:NEVENT should be used to judge the long-term notability of such events. There are clearly some shootings that will remain notable like the Uvadle shooting, but we are often far too eager to rush to create an article about a mass shooting without waiting to see how much coverage it actually is going to have in the future. --Masem (t) 15:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would have thought it unlikely that a mass shooting would not get at least some longer-term coverage from regional media, though of course many won't in a national or even a state sense. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- In the US, mass shootings happen, on average, more than once a day. These events are notable according to the same criteria we use for anything else, but as a practical matter we'd need to hire or appoint a full-time editor in residence just to keep up with the death toll associated with our... "freedom". MastCell Talk 17:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would have thought it unlikely that a mass shooting would not get at least some longer-term coverage from regional media, though of course many won't in a national or even a state sense. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- There are different ways that they are defined for different purposes including ones where people were only wounded. I think that the OP was referring to those of the type with several deaths which make national news. North8000 (talk)
- The entire premise of this proposal is faulty. To say that "
the only reasons are irresponsible news media and social media users and platforms, according to the American Psychological Association
" is patently false and lacks citation. RekishiEJ is incorrect that this press release "reflects the consensus of the American Psychological Association on mass shooting contagion
". Rather, it is a presented paper from the APA national conference, meaning it is not even a peer-reviewed published scholarly article and certainly not a position statement of any sort. Social contagion theory is a perfectly valid theory and likely has some significant R2, but to suggest we stop writing any articles due to it is absurd. Most damning to this contagion idea, to me, is that this "contagion" near-universally affects only boys and young men for some unspecified reason. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC) - Agree with user Masem above. I would also add that when these events are highlighted, for whatever reason, that the perpetrator's name should only appear once in the article or summary, and never in the headline. Regards, GenQuest "scribble" 18:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Upgrade opt-in Appearance gadget to show blocked users without talk page access
— Preceding unsigned comment added by EpicPupper (talk • contribs) 22:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
DABs on very common names: how to improve
DABs on very common names: how to improveI'm not a coder, but others are. There is a dilemma here: any DAB page on very common first names (such as Ben) or surnames (such as Müller (surname)) has the problem that it is NEVER complete. It can't be. Also, updating the details (such as death year when it occurs) is a Sisyphean task, which will also never catch up with events.
The second option would be to only use the template {{intitle|''search word''}} for displaying "All pages with titles containing search word". Besides the problem of bringing up hits other than pages about people with that name, the main problem there is that it leads to endless lists of hits, which are not organised alphabetically (can't figure out how they are organised), split into pages of 50, so totally non-user-friendly and almost useless.
We need a bot here, which would transform the template, so the result would still be
- an automatically created list, but one
- ordered alphabetically,
- displaying the "short description" next to the name and being
- as updated as the Wikidata file is,
- at best with the option of getting fixed manually (because there are more editors who know how to do that than such who know how to fix "short descriptions" and Wikidata files),
- ideally with a mechanism pinging interested editors when such manual changes happen, so that they can adopt the change, if they see fit, to the "short description" and Wikidata file.
- Adding headings for each letter of the alphabet, like at Müller (surname), is also helpful.
- The option of giving priority to manual fixes: if the name stems from, say, a biblical character or a few ancient saints, those should be set first, at the top, in their own sub-section, preferably in a chronological order, which should be stated in a short sentence (intro) under the sub-heading. That's the job of an experienced editor, not a bot, and the bot should not mess it up.
Repetitive work is typically best fit for bots, and this is a clear case of such work. Is anyone interested & able to create the mechanism? I guess there might be Wiki proposal pages better suited than this one. Who can point me to them? Thank you, Arminden (talk) 08:44, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Automatically displaying the short description would indeed be a major improvement. SDs are specifically written with disambiguation of this type in mind, and many biographical SDs include birth and death dates which helps quickly readers focus on titles of interest. One slight correction: SDs aren't linked in any way with Wikidata (they used to be, but the link was removed a few years ago). Now, all SDs are stored locally here, and are written with solely with Wikipedia in mind. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:29, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Arminden, I wonder whether a link to Special:AllPages/Ben would address some of your concerns for common first names. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Whatamidoing (WMF), thanks for the template. I knew of a similar one, {{intitle|Ben}} (leads to All pages with titles containing Ben). There is even one leading to [[Special:search/~"Ben"|All pages containing ''Ben'']] (leads to All pages containing Ben). The two can be both replaced by a single, much shorter one, {{srt}}. Anyway, they're all useful, but lacking details (short description and life years) and are not good for replacing the existing DAB page. Arminden (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure that DAB is supposed to be an index of every “Ben”. The point of a DAB page is to disambiguate topics that might have the same title.Blueboar (talk) 22:01, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Having a list of all people named Bibi is a useful disambiguation tool; there are 33 people listed there, divided into nickname, first name and last name. Ben is probably the name of too many people to be useful even as a navigation aid, unless some reasonable split can be made (by a human, not a bot) and enforced. Animal lover |666| 18:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- {{Get short description}} might help (though it doesn't work perfectly). The birth and death dates could be obtained from Wikidata (via a bot or template). ― Qwerfjkltalk 06:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- Having a list of all people named Bibi is a useful disambiguation tool; there are 33 people listed there, divided into nickname, first name and last name. Ben is probably the name of too many people to be useful even as a navigation aid, unless some reasonable split can be made (by a human, not a bot) and enforced. Animal lover |666| 18:38, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure that DAB is supposed to be an index of every “Ben”. The point of a DAB page is to disambiguate topics that might have the same title.Blueboar (talk) 22:01, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Whatamidoing (WMF), thanks for the template. I knew of a similar one, {{intitle|Ben}} (leads to All pages with titles containing Ben). There is even one leading to [[Special:search/~"Ben"|All pages containing ''Ben'']] (leads to All pages containing Ben). The two can be both replaced by a single, much shorter one, {{srt}}. Anyway, they're all useful, but lacking details (short description and life years) and are not good for replacing the existing DAB page. Arminden (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Arminden, I wonder whether a link to Special:AllPages/Ben would address some of your concerns for common first names. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:02, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Protecting important list articles indefinitely
I think it is important to protect important list articles from promotional edits such as List of news websites in India and Over-the-top media services in India. I believe these types article has an importance in search results that people search for it. Unfortunately, there is a high chance to get the article vandalized for promotional uses by others (business, agency) to list their assets in Wikipedia. IPs are also coming with the same after the vandal's block. So, I believe it would be important to make these types of article reliable and vandal free by protecting it with SemiP or ECP. Onmyway22 talk 07:18, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- Remember that protection also protects against good edits, such as removing vandalism and spam. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:PREEMPTIVE makes it clear that pages should not be pre-emptively protected; neither linked article has any recent disruption, so I do not see the need to protect at the moment. Curbon7 (talk) 13:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I can't see why list articles in general would needs special exceptions from Wikipedia:Protection_policy#Pre-emptive_protection; if a page is having a problem we should be able to deal with it already. — xaosflux Talk 13:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- The general rule is to apply the lowest level of protection, for the shortest period of time, required to prevent ongoing disruption. Apply indef protection of any level is a drastic step which shouldn't be taken without extensive evidence that it's needed and that previous efforts have failed. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
To whatever extent that people use those lists, any entry is promotional and will financially benefit whoever is listed. And being subjective with no inclusion criteria noted, what would make any particular addition be considered to be "promotional" any more than the others on the list? North8000 (talk) 16:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
As a general principle, we should ask editors to fix their mistakes. Why don't we?
We have, or have had, systems in place that drop a user talk note where an editor adds a disambiguation link to an article, or leaves unbalanced brackets in an article.
Why don't we have something set up so that for every WP:CHECKWIKI issue for which we scan (e.g., an editor putting a footnote in a header), we have a bot find the editor who made that edit and drop them a note informing them of the relevant rule and asking that they fix it? BD2412 T 15:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- In theory, I think this would be a great idea, but requires a bit of thought. We could certainly come up with a list of things that can be checked automatically (in the tradition of lint). We could then drop a (friendly and educational) note on the editor's page, alerting them to the issue and suggesting improvements. The problem is, as anybody who has worked with a linting system knows, the burden of sorting out false or trivial alerts can exceed the value of the system if you're not careful. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- In principle this is a nice idea, but out of interest what do you mean by "putting a footnote in a header"? Do you mean including references in the lead, as in (from today's OTD) Rædwald of East Anglia notes [1] and [2]? While this is in principle not correct, all lead facts should be mentioned and cited in the body, and would be something to bring up at GA or FA, we definitely shouldn't be discouraging this for each and every article of any quality. It is much better for a fact to be referenced only in the lead than not referenced at all... Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think BD2412 meant something like
== Awards<ref>{{cite web ... }}</ref> ==
in articles. DanCherek (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC) - Yes, per DanCherek, last I checked we have over 5,000 instances of a footnote in a section header, with many of these being in the ==References== header, and therefore not properly associated with specific article text. In every one of those cases, some editor first put that ref tag in the header, and a search of the article history should reveal which one, so they can be messaged and asked to fix the error. BD2412 T 19:01, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- To be clear, by the way, I am not just suggesting that we do this going forward, but that we do this retroactively with respect to currently-existing errors. BD2412 T 19:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think BD2412 meant something like
- I've seen
== Awards==<ref>{{cite web ... }}</ref>
too, and I am fine if we have that notice, but I don't I know how many of these standard type mistake edits there are. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2022 (UTC) - As a general principle experienced users should fix mistakes that are made by new editors. Why don't we? Phil Bridger (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I do, sometimes, but I have other things to do, and don't want to spend all of my time fixing other editor's mistakers. And fixing one's own mistakes when they are pointed out is how we hopefully learn not to make the same mistakes again. - Donald Albury 22:51, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger: let me ask you this. Do you remember all of your old mistakes? Some of the things we are fixing today were originally done years ago by editors who are still active, and now experienced. If, say, fourteen years ago, you did something erroneous in an article and it was still there, wouldn't you want a bot to drop you a note asking you to revisit it? BD2412 T 05:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I just thought I would trial a problem solving approach to proposal evaluation.
- Problem
- Quality - Editors creating work for others
- Root Cause
- Process - The editing systems are not mistake proof.
- Training - Help is not context-sensitive, but in complex guidelines. Ignorantia juris non excusat (ignorance of the law is no excuse) approach
- User Experience - Overload of information. Action and Error message are complex and long.
- Policy - WP:5P4 "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility" does not specify that editors should not waste other's time.
- Process Management - There is no overview of errors to fix
- People - Lack of editors to fix minor issues "I do, sometimes, but I have other things to do, and don't want to spend all of my time fixing other editor's mistakes. " @Donald Albury
- Proposed solution
- Create an automated system to ask problem creator to fix.
- Can we trial it at low cost?
- Yes - identify minor errors and manually send errors, and see responses both from a bot type editor name and from a normal editor name,
- Risks
- Against Best practise -Blame_in_organizations
- Editor retention : Creator of error may respond negatively especially if many years old (See comment by @BD2412) justice delayed_is_justice_denied or maybe there needs to be a statute of limitations
- Editor Retention - Major reason for "Golden editors" is perceived negative interactions, especially on talk (there is WMF research somewhere that someone can find)
- Editor retention : Bot Human interactions can be problematic
- New Process Risk- Pushing error notifications to editors.
- User Experience - We are allowing a bot to send errors a few minutes later rather than tell the editor at the time
- Editor retention - Notifications are static. If the error is fixed, before the editor looks, then wasted effort.
- Cost
- Labour - Increased effort of "ask to fix" vs "fix yourself" (Wikipedia Editor hours)
- Quality - High Failure rate - Using talk as an example (and figures based on a random sample I just did), only 5 to 10 % get a response within 5 years, or before being archived. FA are 50 &, stubs are zero
- Turnover/Retention - (see @BD2412
- Benefit to Readers
- Would they notice if this is not fixed?
- What do we need to monitor current state and success rate?
- Data - results from similar request processes. (notifications, messages, talk)
- Data - percentage of minor errors after receiving notification
- Data - percentage of active editors who stop being active within say 12 months of receiving notification, compared with editors who don't receive notification
- Definition of success -what percentage is success
- Policy - no process for evaluating proposal success Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 08:30, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Wakelamp: For the record, the "don't want to spend all of my time fixing other editor's mistakes" comment that you quote was Donald Albury, not me. BD2412 T 16:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Doh! CorrectedWakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 13:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
RfC: Should we use the longstanding external links icon or the new one?
Recently, a new icon has been rolled out and implemented for external links. Should we use the longstanding icon or keep the new one? — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion: Should we use the longstanding external links icon or the new one?
- Use the longstanding icon. The old icon was functioning quite fine, no editors on EnWiki seemed to complain about it, though the Wikimedia foundation decided to make changes to the current Vector skin that has used the longstanding external links icon. The new icon, frankly, is too thin to properly render on my monitor and (per comments on phabricator) it appears to be this way on low-density screens more generally. While some may be ok using the new icon before it is fully finished, I personally am frankly disappointed that the way that this icon renders on low-density screens was not given due consideration before its implementation. The longstanding icon should be used until the glaring issues with how the new icon renders on different screens are resolved. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is clearly premature. --Izno (talk) 04:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree. If anything was premature, it was pushing the icon onto EnWiki without (a) local communication that this was going to happen and (b) testing to make sure that the icon would appear well on low-density screens. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree, no one is asking you about the 300 changes per week being deployed and you should be glad, you don't have enough waking hours to read them. Be bold and revert is a much better strategy. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:34, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Per TheDJ. In addition, the change itself has already been reverted in the source. See phab:T261391#8112692. Izno (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree. If anything was premature, it was pushing the icon onto EnWiki without (a) local communication that this was going to happen and (b) testing to make sure that the icon would appear well on low-density screens. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:BIKESHED If you prefer the 'old one' once the 'new one' is rolled out, you can always customize it in your on skin. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- This isn't about just me, and I'm aware of how to do customizations. The issue is that affects readers who have low-density screens by making the rendering sloppy. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 05:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Bikeshedding is when you get caught up discussing the color of the bikeshed instead of the construction of the nuclear power plant. The point isn't that one should never care about the color of a bikeshed. After all, there may be all sorts of aesthetic, logistical, and environmental concerns absolutely worth raising about a bikeshed's color. It just shouldn't become the focus over more important things. So if Mhawk had started this RfC in the middle of a discussion about the external links guideline, then yeah, that'd be bikeshedding. But it's perfectly fine to start a discussion with the specific scope of deciding what the icon should be, just like it's fine for the nuclear power plant to put together a committee with the dedicated purpose of picking a color for the bikeshed. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 06:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Use the longstanding icon, per MOS:RESOL and Mhawk's comments. BilledMammal (talk) 05:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Use the longstanding icon per the visibility concerns Mhawk raises. A new icon that doesn't render right is about as useful as installing chandeliers in a condemned house. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v a little blue Bori 06:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Looks like the change was undone last night – I assume we will see the old icon again on Thursday — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 09:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: I like the new icon but to me on my mobile screen using desktop site, it appears as four disconnected straight lines which is rather awkward to see. The old one at least worked fine. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm on regular desktop and I see the same: four disconnected lines as the box. Also at high zoom it becomes clear the the diagonal arrow looks terrible and it's got obvious issues. So the "new image" shown for this RfC doesn't match the actual image being used for the external links. Jason Quinn (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Given that the change has been reverted for now this RfC should be closed. Sam Walton (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- The old icon looks like ass. I mean, I kind of grew attached to it over the years, but let's be honest, it was very much a product of its time. It doesn't make sense. Look at it for a minute. There is this big, open arrow, and a random diagonal line in the middle of the icon, that's a completely different color. Maybe there are some problems with the new one (it looks fine on my desktop computer but it seems like some people were having issues) -- but come on, there's a lot of room for improvement. jp×g 11:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- What do you mean "has been rolled out and implemented"? I still see the "old icon" on EL's. — xaosflux Talk 13:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:BIKESHED, no one should care, start writing articles or become a designer ffs —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- While I don't like the old icon much and will not shed a tear when it gets replaced by something better, the new icon sort of breaks when I decrease my font size. (Just tested on zhwiki, which has the new xlink icon but the old PDF icon). I am hoping we'll see a third icon that is better than both soon. —Kusma (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- The old icon should be used until resolution issues are fixed. That said, the new one if it renders correctly is much clearer than the old icon. —Danre98(talk^contribs) 16:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reconsider when they want to re-add, if we care I'm not quite on the "let the devs do and only revert if needed" side as suggested as pure default, but I don't think this would have been the drastic change that heralded the (formal) dev takeover without prior notice. It's been rightly reverted. Presumably it'll only be re-added when they're fairly confident that it'll serve all the usecases of the current one - i.e. when it's down to being a stylistic choice. As both are perfectly understandable I pray we can skip the pdf slog as I really couldn't care less at that point. Please consider this !vote as a akin to a procedural close !vote, if it matters. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. What articulatable problem does this icon change solve? Not super clear from the phab thread. In my opinion, the icon's reduction in density is a bit jarring. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Make the new icon thicker, per others. The new icon is inherently better as it is more modern, easier to see, etc. People who are wanting the old icon back can copy a CSS code from somewhere. A rocky implementation should not kill a good idea. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:BIKESHED, WP:BRD Andrevan@ 21:32, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- New logo no issues with the new logo, I think there's some response bias in terms of people actually liking the new logo but not commenting here. This isn't a big deal IMO. Use the new one. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is not that proposal logo is bad. Infact, I like the modern feel of it. The problem is that what has been proposed, isn't the one being seen by many, if not all, of us. User experience should be the driving force behind change, not making changes for the sake of making changes when there's lots of rather urgent technical issues needing resolve. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 06:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I prefer the new icon. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose any local solution. Just use whatever MediaWiki and Vector developers decide to use. If you want to push a certain option, do it on Phabricator or Meta, not here. Nardog (talk) 02:01, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- Use the longstanding icon. In Chrome a 1920x1080 monitor in Windows 10, the new icon looks disjoined and lopsided. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 18:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Communication issue
@Volker E. (WMF), AHollender (WMF), and Jon (WMF): Completely separate from the issue of whether or not the new design is an improvement (which I still need to investigate more before forming an opinion), I think we need to take a bit of space here to diagnose what went wrong with communication between the WMF and the community. This is a major design change (far more impactful than the PDF icon change for which there was a CENT-listed RfC) that should have been presented to the community rather than rolled out unilaterally. Why didn't that happen? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because the PDF change took 3 months ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- The WMF had nothing to do with the pdf change; the icon is a local thing used by MediaWiki:Common.css circa row 92. In addition, per TheDJ above, there are several changes each week and I don't think enwiki needs consulted about every single one. Devs being bold and others reverting if necessary (as someone has) works just fine. —Danre98(talk^contribs) 16:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- I really have to question it as a "major design change". No, New Vector is obviously such, but the external link tag is not. The pdf change took forever because so many proposed changes were un-understandable. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- The external links icon is not a "major design change" but it is extremely visible. Many of the key Wikipedians are some of the most thoughtful, helpful, and capable people on the planet. Maybe it's just me but I think common sense suggests to consult them before making any highly visible global change. Jason Quinn (talk) 02:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- It makes no economic sense however. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- And yet, I didn't notice it until I saw this discussion. - Donald Albury 16:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would agree with Jason here. I also don't like setting the standard that we make our source code easier to change than MediaWiki:Common.css. There should be some sort of community review before highly visible changes go live.
FWIW, I say this as the person who got the PDF icon change rolling (despite not getting my preferred result). @Nosebagbear: From that perspective, I can say the pdf change took forever simply because the community didn't just want an improved icon (which my suggestion in comparison to the lousy gif) but a better icon (the one they ended up going with without the Adobe logo on it -_-). –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- The external links icon is not a "major design change" but it is extremely visible. Many of the key Wikipedians are some of the most thoughtful, helpful, and capable people on the planet. Maybe it's just me but I think common sense suggests to consult them before making any highly visible global change. Jason Quinn (talk) 02:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- I really have to question it as a "major design change". No, New Vector is obviously such, but the external link tag is not. The pdf change took forever because so many proposed changes were un-understandable. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Not every change needs an RfC, but every change that alters how we view or interact with the website should be presented to the community; if there are reasonable objections, we can then open a broader discussion and if necessary an RfC. BilledMammal (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Related changes link from redlinked pages
We already have a What Links Here link on redlinked pages. I propose a link to Related Changes be added directly after it (with options set to list changes to pages linking to the page in question).
Rationale: It saves a few clicks or keystrokes, and it is useful to check the popularity of an article subject or the amount of editing activity on connected subjects, something that may indicate importance or demand of a new article. Utfor (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2022 (UTC)