Deletion discussions |
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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed); or
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
1. |
Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |reason= }} ~~~~ Copy this template skeleton for files: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |article= |reason= }} ~~~~ |
2. |
and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
3. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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4. |
For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
5. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted |
*'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~ |
*'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~ |
*'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~ |
*'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~ |
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented. If the administrator finds that there is no consensus in the deletion review, then in most cases this has the same effect as endorsing the decision being appealed. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; admins may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
If a speedy deletion is appealed, the closer should treat a lack of consensus as a direction to overturn the deletion, since it indicates that the deletion was not uncontroversial (which is a requirement of almost all criteria for speedy deletion). Any editor may then nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum. But such nomination is in no way required, if no editor sees reason to nominate.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
- Speedy closes
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
Active discussions
4 August 2022
Draft:Sphere Matchers
- Draft:Sphere Matchers (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
- Draft:Bobik Platz (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Draft was speedly deleted under G3 criteria, when G3: Blatant hoax didn't apply because the company and the supposed video game in development is real. Unfortunately though, the IGN links on the references on both draft articles are dead links and I couldn't find anything beside the FANDOM page about both company and the game they developed. Also, the first page hasn't been submitted yet and full create-protection is unnecessary for the latter case. 36.74.42.66 (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Just need some source to show it meets WP:V. My sense is that it is a hoax, but if you can provide a RS, I'd agree with a restoration. Hobit (talk) 15:58, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Princess Princep Shah of Nepal
- Princess Princep Shah of Nepal (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Was closed (very reasonably and agreeably) with not much discussion, no arguments to keep, I think everyone missed that she passes WP:ANYBIO on the basis of her Nansen Refugee Award I'd like to work on the article CT55555 (talk) 14:24, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Please note that the closer is agreeable to this request. Link. CT55555 (talk) 14:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Restore I interpret the close as a WP:SOFTDELETE (except with a redirect rather than a deletion), which means that the deletion can be WP:REFUNDed upon any good-faith request, and we've had such a request here. The original close wasn't wrong (thus this is not an "overturn"), but is no longer relevant. --ais523 15:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
3 August 2022
Muslim Mojahedin
- Muslim Mojahedin (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (restore)
Article was speedy deleted under A10 criteria, when A10 criteria did not apply. Article was not that recent - 8 weeks, not 3-6 weeks - it did expand upon information within any existing article and the title was a plausible redirect. It had also been contested on the talk page (by me, though it wasn't my article). Ample scholarly sources establish the subject as a term in its own right. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn. Deletion was clearly not uncontroversial and the title is not an implausible search term for the target (People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran), and per the hatnotes, other targets too. I haven't looked in enough detail to determine whether or not it does expand on the target article - whether a separate article is needed and/or there is anything to merge is something that requires discussion after this DRV. Thryduulf (talk) 12:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn and Restore as per Thryduulf. I haven't seen the deleted article, but it evidently is a contentious deletion, and so is "not uncontroversial". If necessary, it can go to AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn as not A10 appropriate--it is clearly a plausible redirect--and send to AfD if desired. Jclemens (talk) 08:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
29 July 2022
Soda Popinski
- Soda Popinski (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The discussion is over two weeks old, but I've decided to bring it here for a review. Anyway, the closer said there's no convincing arguments for non-trivial mentions. Haleth and I provided ample evidence that the character has received significant coverage, while Oinkers42 and Smuckola agreed, but no one in support of the merge attempted to refute the specific sources brought up. I'm not saying all the merge votes were invalid, but I see more of an equal amount of weight between those who support a keep vs. those who support a merge. I think the discussion should at least be overturned to no consensus or be relisted. MoonJet (talk) 06:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to keep Of the 5 merge/restore redirect opinions, the last 3 provided no policy-based support for why it must be merged. Sure, it could be merged, but that's not an appropriate AfD conclusion unless there's no policy-based argument for keeping it. When Piotrus finds the reception section worthy of a standalone article, that's a pretty good indication that it actually is. Jclemens (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Good point. Just because the article can be merged there, doesn't mean it should. We have tons of sub-articles that can easily fit into the parent article, but we keep them anyway, because they clearly satisfy the notability guidelines. Unless they can provide a reason why it must be merged there, then it probably shouldn't be. MoonJet (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just a note that there is no contradiction between merging (copying...) some content to expand said list and keeping the original article too. Anyway, my vote was merge or keep, so whatever happens, I am fine. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, absolutely. I do not object to the content being merged as an editorial decision. I do not think the discussion supported a requirement that it be merged, based on the rough consensus of the discussion, and I do not support folks using AfD in lieu of a redirect or merge discussion when there's really no reasonable possibility of a deletion outcome. Jclemens (talk) 08:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just a note that there is no contradiction between merging (copying...) some content to expand said list and keeping the original article too. Anyway, my vote was merge or keep, so whatever happens, I am fine. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Good point. Just because the article can be merged there, doesn't mean it should. We have tons of sub-articles that can easily fit into the parent article, but we keep them anyway, because they clearly satisfy the notability guidelines. Unless they can provide a reason why it must be merged there, then it probably shouldn't be. MoonJet (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Relist I assess the AfD in question as having a consensus that "what matters in terms of keep/merge is how many of the sources have non-trivial coverage of this character in question rather than the game as a whole", but widespread disagreement as to whether enough of the sources do have that coverage. Several of the comments on both the keep side and the merge side don't seem to be sufficiently focused on this to gauge consensus. The AfD would probably work better if it were reopened and focused specifically on the main point of contention. --ais523 10:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Relist to see if rough consensus emerges between Merge and Keep. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:14, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
Dua Zehra case
- Dua Zehra case (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Ever since the incident took place, it has been in the news since March 2022. This was followed by many other incidents like suspension of police officer, court trials and protests etc. Definitely passes WP:EVENT (WP:LASTING and WP:COVERAGE) Ainty Painty (talk) 02:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse the coverage cited in the article was news articles from between April and June 2022, which doesn't exactly refute the WP:NOTNEWS argument. And the nominator did have a point when they said the article "appears to be an unsalvageable BLP nightmare". Hut 8.5 07:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse if the appellant wishes to overturn the close. If the appellant wishes to submit a draft, I haven't seen either the article or the draft and can't comment on the BLP nightmar. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Of note, the deletion rationale was "BLP nightmare" which is a perfectly fine deletion rationale. The supports were NOTNEWS which is a valid deletion rationale, but not anywhere as serious as the nom's. Iridescent is not known for frivolous or inappropriate deletion nominations, and was the admin who explained speedy deletion to me 15ish years ago, so the source of the deletion nom bears much weight in my mind. Having not seen the article, the fact that the appellant hasn't addressed the central cause for deletion means that this is an endorse from me, even though I haven't seen the article and know nothing about the subject. Jclemens (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Recent discussions
27 July 2022
Bhumika Gurung (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Please review the deletion of Bhumika Gurung. It was deleted back in 2018 and later protected with a note saying to ask here to recreate the page. I've created Draft:Bhumika Gurung and while it's been rejected several times by reviewers previously, It seems like a WP:BURDEN of proof has fallen disproportiontely on some of the editors like me who want to keep an article to find and demonstrate that there are reliable sources that prove notability while those seeking rejection can simply say that a subject isn't notable or say that they can't find any sources (which can't ever be confirmed). I feel I've addressed all the issues which lead to deletion of the article of Bhumika Gurung back in 2018. Also, Gurung meets the WP:NACTOR criteria. She's played lead roles in multiple television shows, starting in Nimki Mukhiya (TV series) for nearly two years([1])([2]), and it's follow-on show Nimki Vidhayak ([3]) and also in ‘’Humkadam’’([4]) She's had a significant role in Mann Kee Awaaz Pratigya 2 ([5]) and she's currently playing lead in Hara Sindoor.([6]). The article has good sources that support these significant roles as well as the other roles she's played and some basic details about her personal life. Please review my draft as I think it's ready to be moved to the main article. Commonedits (talk) 17:02, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
[8] and this[9] Commonedits (talk) 05:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
26 July 2022
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This has been deleted again despite being restored just several hours ago with no further votes cast since. Should be relisted or Keep - no consensus. Current vote is 3 - 2 in favor of keep. Simione001 (talk) 22:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
3 Keep votes, which pointed to sources not currently in the article, versus 4 Merge votes. Looks like No consensus to me. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
25 July 2022
In a no consensus situation at DRV, the closer can choose to relist the AfD. An argument for doing so is that the AfD has not previously been relisted and is quite brief. An argument against doing so is S Marshall's view that "there's [no] prospect of finding decent sources for this person", which is borne out by the fact that no source was presented or discussed in the AfD or in this DRV. I'm more convinced by this view: to avoid wasting community time, people contributing to AfDs should make an effort to present convincing arguments, that is, to cite the specific sources that they believe establish notability. Nothing in the AfD and DRV suggests that there are in fact valid sources that could be presented to change the course of the discussion. I therefore decline to relist the AfD, which means that the "delete" closure remains in force by default. But if somebody does find convincing sources they are free to recreate the article based on them, and then to request restoration of the history via WP:REFUND. Sandstein 13:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC) |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Requesting overturning of the decision to Delete this article. Vote was 3 - 2 in favor of keep. Simione001 (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
24 July 2022
Tender Claws (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a significant game design company that has won multiple awards, and the article had many citations. I unfortunately did not see the deletion discussion until yesterday, or I would have argued against deletion/redirect. If anything, it would make more sense to delete the separate article for The Under Presents, and redirect that to Tender Claws, because the game company has made MANY significant works apart from The Under Presents. The reason for deletion given by User:Alexandermcnabb includes the statement "When you're presenting a gaming company as interesting because one of its games is unplayable, you're in the weeds, folks..." I completely agree that if that game is unplayable (I haven't tried) it probably shouldn't be included in the Wikipedia article, but that's easily fixable by deleting that line, which was added by an anonymous user on March 8, adding "VVR2 got released, should probably add that. (And the part about how terrible the game is)". This unsourced statement surely shouldn't lead to deleting the whole article. User:Alexandermcnabb states that the article fails WP:GNG but this is a game development studio, not an actor. He also states that it fails WP:CORP but I don't see how this can be the case, given that Tender Claws has extensive media coverage (the deleted article included references to a long article in the New York Times, a review in the Theatre Journal and several others, and several of their games have won awards - and the article that was deleted has citations for many of these awards. I think both Samantha Gorman and the studio Tender Claws clearly deserve their own articles, and ask that the community reconsiders their deletion. I am also happy to help revise both articles to improve them. Lijil (talk) 19:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Patrick Lancaster
- Patrick Lancaster (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Request overturning or relisting of this deletion discussion. Closer did not take into account a lengthy article by Zaborona covering the subject very significantly and a discussion on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 379#Zaborona where most editors said Zaborona is reliable. The Zaborona article was removed as an administrative action which I challenged on User talk:EvergreenFir#Your administrator actions on Patrick_Lancaster and the administrator subsequently changed their position in the aforementioned Reliable sources noticeboard discussion. IntrepidContributor (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Weak Overturn to No Consensus - I count 8 Keep !votes, and 8 Delete !votes plus the nom for 9, and guideline-based reasons for both, so that the closer's disregard of the Keeps was a supervote. That is enough participation that a Relist is not required or appropriate. The appeal would be stronger if the appellant hadn't bludgeoned the AFD. The bludgeoning may have, almost reasonably, made the closer think that the appellant was shouting because they didn't have a case. Usually shouting and bludgeoning is the sign of a lost cause, and the closer may have thought so. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus Solid policy-based arguments were made on both sides, and the closing admin incorrectly dismisses the NBC and Vice sources while also failing to acknowledge a few other reliable sources that came up in the discussion. Frank Anchor 17:09, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to NC the Task and Purpose profile, linked in the AfD, was sufficiently compelling to 'win' the GNG argument, but seemed to be lost in the back-and forth and accusations of sockpuppetry and bad faith. Jclemens (talk) 04:07, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse. Within admin discretion, "no consensus" and "delete" both defensible. Many "keep" !votes were not solid. Potentially this should be considered WP:TNT, it sounds like the article was littered by low quality source; consider trying again in draft with WP:THREE quality sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article already was rewritten through the AfD process. See latest version of deleted text here. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t approve. This shows disrespect for Wikipedia and the deletion process and attribution good practice. Please have it deleted and wait for this DRV discussion to finish.
- If the outcome is to consider the deletion WP:TNT and allow a re-start, the only thing that can be re-used is the reference list, and even then the point is the discarding of all low quality sources. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:19, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- If any other user had requested a temp undeletion, it would have been granted. Rather than griping at this editor, how about we do that instead, so all of us can see what the text was when it was deleted? Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what the gripe is about. Sometimes the Wikipedia deletion process goes astray, as was the case here. The only reason this article was deleted was because I was accused of being pro-Russian and a stock of another editor. IntrepidContributor (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- If any other user had requested a temp undeletion, it would have been granted. Rather than griping at this editor, how about we do that instead, so all of us can see what the text was when it was deleted? Jclemens (talk) 06:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article already was rewritten through the AfD process. See latest version of deleted text here. IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus. There was no consensus in the AfD discussion about whether the sources were sufficient for the subject to meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline. The closing admin mentioned the NBC News and Vice sources but additional sources were discussed such as this comment that said:
Cunard (talk) 08:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)I actually recognized this name because his name has been mentioned in Dutch media more than once in relation to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 being shot down. This article in NRC (newspaper) (definitely a reliable source) for example mentions "Lancaster" 7 times: [10]. [11] by De Telegraaf about Russian media is also clearly more than a passing mention.
- Overturn to NC or relist. The close summary does have problems (per Cunard) and I just don't see consensus having formed in that discussion. That said, something does seem off about the discussion and I'd not object to a renewed (or entirely new) discussion. Hobit (talk) 16:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
12 July 2022
Marie Rose Abad (closed)
This raises the question of what "no consensus" means here: per WP:DRV#Closing reviews, no consensus for contested XfD closures means endorse by default or relist, but no consensus for contested speedy deletions means overturn. This case fits neither category clearly: the deletion is based on a discussion, but at AN, not at XfD. In my view, this deletion is more akin to a speedy deletion than to a XfD deletion: the AN discussion was not held in a deletion-related forum, was not focused on the question of deletion, has no formal closure with respect to that (or any other) question that could be reviewed here, and it cannot be properly relisted. Consequently, treating this deletion as a speedy deletion, it is overturned. To avoid having to mass un-delete and possibly re-delete of the other 3'000 or so similar redirects, I suggest that somebody nominate this redirect at RfD, as a test case for whether to delete or keep all the other redirects as well. Sandstein 13:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC) |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
(3) They aid searches on certain terms—not to mention that, if I created them, naturally I'm (5) Someonewho finds them useful.I would thus like to better understand why these redirects, and other similar ones, need to be deleted on their own merit, now that the consensus for keeping the target has been established. I understand one of the issues some people took with the redirects themselves was that the people they named are not notable, but WP:N explicitly states that: — Guarapiranga ☎ 02:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
7 July 2022
Megan Huntsman
- Megan Huntsman (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
I discussed concerns about the close at the closer's Talk page but continue to have concerns that consensus was interpreted incorrectly and the result should be overturned to delete, or in the alternative, that a relist would be appropriate due to the circumstances of the discussion and a possible procedural error, as discussed with the closer. Beccaynr (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. I definitely don't think a move was the right outcome there, given that nobody suggested that in the discussion. There was voluminous disagreement about whether she met BLP1E or not but I don't think it came to a consensus. Ritchie333 relisting the discussion suggests they were of that opinion too, so the finding of consensus by the closer after no further discussion is surprising. I'm leaning towards opining this should be overturned to no consensus (without prejudice to RM) but I'm going to think a bit more before bolding anything. Thryduulf (talk) 01:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I do not think an overturn to no consensus would be right, given the complete lack of policy based justification from the keep !voters. I'd much prefer a relisting. ––FormalDude talk 04:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. Thanks Thryduulf. Although a move was not explicitly mentioned, I felt (as the closing admin) that it was the logical implication of a discussion which, in my mind, seemed to conclude that the individual does not meet notability but that the event might. I feel that the discussion was bogged down by the fact that some were discussing BLP1E, some EVENT and some a bit of both. My reading of the discussion, is that this will either end with an event article and a individual redirect, or a deletion (for which there is not yet consensus). The most efficient way forward would be, in my opinion, for there to be a discussion on the event, after the event article has some slight reworking so that it is clearly about the event (as discussed with Beccaynr on my talk page [12]). The problem is that if it is relisted as the article about the individual, then we are back to the original issues with the discussion. I don't think that a no consensus close would best serve resolving the issue because, again, I think that the consensus will eventually move to "event article + individual redirect" or "delete" and we should find the most efficient way to facilitate that. TigerShark (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just to add to this. I feel that the article as it currently stands is really about the murders than the perpetrator anyway. Reword the opening sentence, remove the infobox and change the "early life" title to "the perpetrator" and you effectively have an article about the event (which arguably should be listed, as previously discussed). I see no point in deleting the article and then inviting it to be recreated (with a redirect) as has been suggested as an alternative, because that puts the article exactly where is it now (or would be with those minor changes). TigerShark (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn - I !voted delete in the AfD. From my view, arguments that contradict policy, are based on unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact and/or are logically fallacious should be discounted. This includes the use of original research to support keeping this article, e.g. asserting it is "highly unusual" without RS support and with RS contradicting this conclusion. Even as an event article, BLP issues related to sensationalist coverage still exist and are also contrary to policy. Per WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS,
These policies are not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus.
Beccaynr (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC) - Comment. It seems like there was (a) a consensus that an article on the individual was not appropriate and (b) no consensus regarding whether or not an article on the event (i.e. the murders) were notable. It's not the best phrased close, but I'm not exactly sure what this practically means for whether to move the page (there is a notable event and not a notable person) or to delete the page (there is no notable topic here, article title be damned). — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with that analysis, and I think it lends to a delete closure without prejudice to someone creating an event article. The article as it stands is about the individual and not the event. ––FormalDude talk 07:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved). There was very clearly no consensus to delete here. I am neutral on the move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:00, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- From my view, your !vote should have been discounted because during the discussion, you did not address the second prong of WP:N, i.e. whether the subject should be excluded per WP:NOTNEWS, also used personal opinion/WP:OR to support keeping the article, as well as a logically fallicious argument related to WP:BLP1E, and did not address the WP:BLP issues. Asserting WP:GNG based on sensationalist news churnalism and academic WP:RS with only superficial coverage also seems to be an unsubstantiated argument. Beccaynr (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe you should review WP:ONLYESSAY:
Wikipedia is not a system of laws. Deletion processes are discussions, not votes, and we encourage people to put forward their opinions.
Something many deletionist editors in recent years seem to have forgotten in their zeal to delete, delete, delete. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:04, 8 July 2022 (UTC)- The link to discussions, not votes leads to the Polling is not a substitute for discussion essay, which includes,
If Wikipedia were to resolve issues through voting on them, editors would be tempted to also use voting with respect to article content. This might undermine Wikipedia policies on verifiability, notability, and the neutral point of view.
From my view, opinions such as WP:ILIKEIT, unsupported assertions of significance and WP:VAGUEWAVES at policy should be discounted, especially when an article is based on sensationalist coverage of living people and there is extensive discussion of sources and P&Gs by delete !voters. Beccaynr (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- The link to discussions, not votes leads to the Polling is not a substitute for discussion essay, which includes,
- Maybe you should review WP:ONLYESSAY:
- From my view, your !vote should have been discounted because during the discussion, you did not address the second prong of WP:N, i.e. whether the subject should be excluded per WP:NOTNEWS, also used personal opinion/WP:OR to support keeping the article, as well as a logically fallicious argument related to WP:BLP1E, and did not address the WP:BLP issues. Asserting WP:GNG based on sensationalist news churnalism and academic WP:RS with only superficial coverage also seems to be an unsubstantiated argument. Beccaynr (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to “no consensus”. There was no consensus to keep or delete the article. There were not BLP violation noted (BLP1E is not a “BLP violation” but a lesser issue), so the no consensus defaults to keep. There was no consensus for the move, that was a Supervote. Feel free to submit a rename proposal through WP:RM, but I note an abundance of sources name the person, and the location is incidental, so the merits for the move are dubious. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- My references to BLP issues in the AfD includes the sensationalist churnalism; the BLP1E aspect is a separate issue that keep !voters do not appear to have addressed with P&Gs or support from RS. Beccaynr (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to "no consensus". I was involved. I argued to keep. I was surprised by the result. I noted that slightly more voters wanted to keep (but also note some arguments were brief), but that the delete advocates also provided credible arguments. I was curious to see how this one was closed, to see what people made of my counter argument to BLP1E delete argument (but that wasn't mentioned by the closer) and I assumed it was heading towards no consensus. The "move" result did surprise me, because we were making polarised arguments and while it is never nice to fail to reach reach consensus, that appears to be the only outcome here. I don't think the current move is an improvement to the encyclopedia. I would find re-opening for more time a good outcome too, as I think we needed more input, rather than the primary contributors just repeating our polarised opinions. Peace. (P.S. I hope this is okay to comment here, I'm not an admin). CT55555 (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Deletion Review is open to anyone's well-reasoned opinion. Well I guess technically it's open to any opinions, but you know what I mean. Star Mississippi 13:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus. Following on from my comment above, and having read the comments from others, I'm now firmly of the opinion that no consensus was the correct outcome for that discussion. Move is a valid opinion, but not one that was discussed at all by the participants so the closer should have expressed that as a !vote. There wasn't consensus that the article should be about the event rather than the person, as otherwise there wouldn't have been strong arguments in favour of keeping, and most arguments made did not express an opinion one way or another. It would be an appropriate question to raise at an RM, but given comments here I don't think it would find favour. I think a new discussion would be preferable to reopening the closed one, so that arguments for and against BLP1E being met can be made without the bludgeoning that was a large part of this one. (Beccaynr you are getting dangerously close to that here). Thryduulf (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Endorse- Move is consistent with the original recommendation ('move or improve') of CT55555, which was only changed to keep following a poor quality argument by FormalDude, and where CT55555 continued to maintain a preference for some ATD outcome over keep. Closing with an ATD outcome that has been proposed and not refuted in the course of the AfD is defensible when neither 'keep' nor 'delete' are good outcomes. While 'no consensus' would also have been a reasonable close, I see no positive case for overturning the close that does not involve relitigating the AfD. — Charles Stewart (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2022 (UTC)- CT55555 said merge, not move, so no, this closure is not consistent with their "original recommendation". Even if it was, it would still be a supervote, considering it was supported by only one editor. ––FormalDude talk 15:30, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are right about merge/move: I misread the !vote, as perhaps did Sandstein. You are wrong about ATD closes, however: choosing the best ATD suggested outcome is not a supervote if there is no consensus for either keep or delete. Next time, please acquaint yourself better with our policy on closing deletion discussions before lecturing DRV. — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- A close in favor of a solution that no one even mentioned, or which was mentioned only in passing but not supported, is the definition of a supervote. If one has a solution to propose, it should be included in the discussion as a comment. If it's too late, it can be suggested in a later discussion. The extant discussion must have a close that reflects its actual contents. Clearly you are the one who's struggling to understand our policies here. ––FormalDude talk 11:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are right about merge/move: I misread the !vote, as perhaps did Sandstein. You are wrong about ATD closes, however: choosing the best ATD suggested outcome is not a supervote if there is no consensus for either keep or delete. Next time, please acquaint yourself better with our policy on closing deletion discussions before lecturing DRV. — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- CT55555 said merge, not move, so no, this closure is not consistent with their "original recommendation". Even if it was, it would still be a supervote, considering it was supported by only one editor. ––FormalDude talk 15:30, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to either "no consensus" or "keep" Solid policy-based arguments were made on all sides. There was little to no discussion regarding a move so I believe restoring its original title is most appropriate. Frank Anchor 12:20, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: I mistakenly closed this DRV too early and undid the move. I've reverted the DRV and AfD (re)closures, but not the move, so as to not to generate too much confusion. If the closure is endorsed, the article should be moved to its new title again. Sandstein 12:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist, almost per Thryduulf, although it seems that some ATD outcome is appropriate and there is some value to improving the XfD record with a less toxic conclusion to that AfD. Also singling out FormalDude for overzealous behaviour in the AfD with a WP:TROUT: please cool down if and when the article is relisted. — Charles Stewart (talk) 10:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Are you serious? Two other contributors both commented more than me. I'm not sure what you feel the need to single me out for. ––FormalDude talk 10:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- TROUT is meant to be less serious, but since you insist on raising the temperature: if the AfD is extended and I see you carrying on as you did before, I will notify AN/I. Your behaviour was worse than editors who wrote more and injured the AfD. — Charles Stewart (talk) 06:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- TROUT is meant to be humorous, but with that threat, I am now laughing, so I guess it worked out. ––FormalDude talk 14:35, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- TROUT is meant to be less serious, but since you insist on raising the temperature: if the AfD is extended and I see you carrying on as you did before, I will notify AN/I. Your behaviour was worse than editors who wrote more and injured the AfD. — Charles Stewart (talk) 06:50, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Are you serious? Two other contributors both commented more than me. I'm not sure what you feel the need to single me out for. ––FormalDude talk 10:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn and relist. I certainly do not see consensus that the serial murdering was notable, much less a reason to bypass RM. Overall, neither the perpetrator nor the event seems notable in light of our guidelines and the quality of sourcing found (a whole lot of primary and self-published pieces). A relist might encourage addition of other viewpoints to the discussion. JoelleJay (talk) 05:31, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think the closer may well have reached the right outcome, but should have !voted rather than close. I'd prefer a relist (yes, I know the last one got nothing, but maybe now it will) but okay with an overturn to NC and the move being discussed on the talk page. Hobit (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Spot News 18 (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I want to write something about this topic, allow me to write on it. Here is my write-up about this topic which I want to publish. Please check it and everything is good, then only allow me to proceed ahead if any changes or suggestions are welcomed.
Spot News 18 is a digital news publishing website and media production company.[1] It was founded on 30 June 2019, by Ashish Kumar Mishra who also serve as the CEO. The company is headquartered in Mumbai, India.[2] Spot News 18 was one of the first digital publishers in India to offer 24-hour news coverage, and it was also one of the first all-news digital publishers at the time it was launched in 2019.[3] 103.204.161.102 (talk) 13:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
References
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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