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Errors in the summary of the featured article
Today's FA
Tomorrow's FA
Day-after-tomorrow's FA
- "Ron Merkle": Links via pipe to the apparently correct Creighton Hale (see article). This was a recent change to the blurb and seems invalid. 108.52.196.8 (talk) 16:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Errors with "In the news"
Errors in "Did you know ..."
Current DYK
In the sixth hook, I believe it should be "...a tribune of the plebs", and not "...the tribune of the plebs". Primergrey (talk) 21:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- An alternative retaining a definite article would be "... that the tribune of the plebs Gaius Antius Restio ..." —Kusma (talk) 08:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
In the eighth hook, "37-percent" does not need the dash. Primergrey (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's used here as a compound modifier, for which a hyphen is standard (see MOS:HYPHEN, no. 3). — RAVENPVFF · talk · 21:18, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Next DYK
Next-but-one DYK
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Today's OTD
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Errors in the summary of the featured list
Friday's FL
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General discussion
About FAs
I've been thinking about Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Racial bias in Wikipedia featured articles, and the problem that what's transparent and known to all of us is completely unexpected to nearly all readers.
The bottom of the FA box currently says:
Recently featured: Tyler Skaggs • Mount Melbourne • Midland Railway War Memorial
Archive • By email • More featured articles
I suggest that we add another link, "About Featured Articles", to a brief/TLDR-aware page that says something like "Featured Articles are some of the best articles at the English Wikipedia. They are written by volunteers about subjects of their own choosing, and judged by other volunteers against the featured article criteria. Each day, volunteers select one of the newly approved articles as today's featured article. If you would like to see a new subject featured on the Main Page, you can learn about contributing to Wikipedia."
What do you think?
WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- PS, this post refers to the bottom of the TFA box, eg, Wikipedia:Today's featured article/July 12, 2022; the specific wording is at {{TFAfooter}} SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:17, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe adjust the label that already goes to Wikipedia:Featured_articles and include any other needed notes in the short write up there (The reading content is only 2 paragraphs now)? — xaosflux Talk 18:10, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Only 2 paragraphs" is about three times as much as I think people will read. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe a {{nutshell}} on top? — xaosflux Talk 18:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think a proper nutshell for that page would say "Here is a list of all the FAs", and the part that I think needs to be emphasized for someone trying to find out "about" FAs is "There is nobody in charge of deciding which subjects are important enough to be turned into FAs". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Was just trying to give some summary prominence with that idea, a nutshell to say this list is a list would just be clutter. — xaosflux Talk 21:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure I like "nobody in charge" - the community is in charge, and you (the person reading this) can help! — xaosflux Talk 21:56, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yep. These proposals will need to be refined to something usable. "Nobody in charge" isn't in that basket ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:30, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- The community doesn't decide which subjects are important enough to be turned into FAs. The community decides whether a nominated article meets FACR, but that's very different. There is nobody in this community who gets to say things like "Christmas is an important holiday, and we think it'd be nice to have Santa Claus appear in TFA in December. How about we assign Xaosflux and SandyGeorgia to bring that article up to snuff before then?" Almost every TFA happens because one or two individuals, of their own volition and without regard for whether "the community" thinks the subject is "important enough", decided that they'd like to nominate an article they've written. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I suppose as any editor is in charge of deciding if they want to write an article, if they want to write it to the community's FA criteria, and if they want to do it individually or collaboratively - any editor is "in charge". It is their taking responsibility for any topic they want to create or improve that births FA's. It certainly isn't "nobody", FA's don't spontaneously generate. Collectively there are many WikiProjects that strive to generate FA's as part of their goals as well. — xaosflux Talk 13:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Anybody (with the relevant skills) can do it. Nobody is in charge of doing it.
- Here's what Wiktionary says:
- In charge
- Having the responsibility of leading or overseeing.
- Having the power of command or control.
- (dated) Being in the care or custody of someone else.
- Does anyone have "the responsibility of leading or overseeing" the creation of FAs? Nope. It's not a "responsibility", and there's no "leading or overseeing". Does anyone have the power of command or control? Nope, there's no ability to order anyone to do it. Is the creation of FAs really in the care or custody of someone? Obviously not, since it's purely voluntary and you said anyone can do it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- WAID, quite true, but saying all that to readers with limited attention span isn't going to be as helpful as saying, alternately, something more positive. And no one yet has looked at how this should optimally happen. If we are just changing the name of the link to an "About FAs" link, while still linking to WP:FA, or creating a new "About FAs" page ... in either case, addressing the new wording and the "where to put it" is best done via a specific proposal with collaboration with the overall FA process (FAC, FAR, TFA). "Nobody in charge" as contrasted to "you can help" ... very different tone. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:55, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Nobody in charge" is probably too informal, but the key point for me is to tell readers that there really is no central organizing principle for writing FAs. TFA really is stuck with whatever comes down the turnpike. There's nobody telling the FA writers to choose topics that will appeal to a wider/different audience. The flip side of that is that there's nobody telling you not to become an FA writer on whatever subject appeals to you personally, including (e.g.,) subjects that you expect to be offensive, to appeal to almost nobody, to be spectacularly unimportant to the world at large, etc. Readers should leave that page with whatever encouragement you like, but also with a clear understanding that there simply is no person or committee that they can go to and say "Please change your de facto policy of running so much white/Western stuff and run some stuff about my culture, too". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If anyone wants the responsibility of leading or overseeing creating a featured article - capre diem! Assemble a team of volunteers if you want and go for it. Unless someone seizes that opportunity, they won't happen. My main point is that these only get created by a lot of hard work by volunteers and I don't want to have any suggestion of triviality for their work. As far someone thinking there is nowhere to go, my message is that there is: it is you the reader, you are the person that can fix the thing you are concerned about. — xaosflux Talk 15:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- The ratio of experienced Wikipedians to population in a developed country is usually around 1 in 100,000. (It is worse elsewhere; there are a billion people in sub-Saharan Africa, of which a mere 3,000 edit the English Wikipedia each month, and about as many again at all of the non-English Wikipedias combined – and that's counting all of the first-edit newbies, rather than only experienced editors.)
- Only about 0.01% of registered editors have ever successfully taken an article through FA. Even if you count only experienced editors, only a small minority (maybe as high as 10%, depending on what you count as "experienced") can claim an FA article.
- This means that, realistically, there is at least a 99.999% chance, and probably closer to a 99.9999% chance, that any given reader actually can't fix it even to the miniscule level of producing one FA ever – an effort that would have only a tiny (0.3%) effect on the distribution of TFA's subjects that year.
- The facts are:
- There's no identifiable individual or group with the power to change the subjects individuals to develop into FAs.
- You almost certainly can't do anything about it, either (though you are welcome to try).
- I think we should own these facts. They might be ugly facts, but they are real ones. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- What can one random person do? Well they can join up with others, such as via a WikiProject. They can add one helpful statement and reference, add one helpful illustration, fix one line of grammar, etc. They can start a draft or start a stub. FA's don't come about in one edit. If you don't like that Cabbage is a FA while Bok choy isn't, we should encourage someone to make the later incrementally better to put it on the path to becoming excellent. (this is how Cabbage started.) They are not in it alone, but can be part of the solution. — xaosflux Talk 17:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If anyone wants the responsibility of leading or overseeing creating a featured article - capre diem! Assemble a team of volunteers if you want and go for it. Unless someone seizes that opportunity, they won't happen. My main point is that these only get created by a lot of hard work by volunteers and I don't want to have any suggestion of triviality for their work. As far someone thinking there is nowhere to go, my message is that there is: it is you the reader, you are the person that can fix the thing you are concerned about. — xaosflux Talk 15:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Nobody in charge" is probably too informal, but the key point for me is to tell readers that there really is no central organizing principle for writing FAs. TFA really is stuck with whatever comes down the turnpike. There's nobody telling the FA writers to choose topics that will appeal to a wider/different audience. The flip side of that is that there's nobody telling you not to become an FA writer on whatever subject appeals to you personally, including (e.g.,) subjects that you expect to be offensive, to appeal to almost nobody, to be spectacularly unimportant to the world at large, etc. Readers should leave that page with whatever encouragement you like, but also with a clear understanding that there simply is no person or committee that they can go to and say "Please change your de facto policy of running so much white/Western stuff and run some stuff about my culture, too". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest that once we've allowed time to get general views here, the specifics should be proposed and discussed in a separate thread, cross-linked to FAC, FAR and TFA. So far, no one disagrees that something can change, but we're light on the specifics of where, what link, and what wording. The wording at WP:FA has been fine-tuned over the years, and it's hard to imagine how "no one is in charge" would fit in there. (And by the way, there has been a huge, Huge effort at FAR to preserve vital and core FAs.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I suppose as any editor is in charge of deciding if they want to write an article, if they want to write it to the community's FA criteria, and if they want to do it individually or collaboratively - any editor is "in charge". It is their taking responsibility for any topic they want to create or improve that births FA's. It certainly isn't "nobody", FA's don't spontaneously generate. Collectively there are many WikiProjects that strive to generate FA's as part of their goals as well. — xaosflux Talk 13:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- The community doesn't decide which subjects are important enough to be turned into FAs. The community decides whether a nominated article meets FACR, but that's very different. There is nobody in this community who gets to say things like "Christmas is an important holiday, and we think it'd be nice to have Santa Claus appear in TFA in December. How about we assign Xaosflux and SandyGeorgia to bring that article up to snuff before then?" Almost every TFA happens because one or two individuals, of their own volition and without regard for whether "the community" thinks the subject is "important enough", decided that they'd like to nominate an article they've written. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yep. These proposals will need to be refined to something usable. "Nobody in charge" isn't in that basket ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:30, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think a proper nutshell for that page would say "Here is a list of all the FAs", and the part that I think needs to be emphasized for someone trying to find out "about" FAs is "There is nobody in charge of deciding which subjects are important enough to be turned into FAs". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe a {{nutshell}} on top? — xaosflux Talk 18:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this approach ("adjust the label that already goes to Wikipedia:Featured_articles and include any other needed notes in the short write up there"). There's already a link to FAs; just add something there. Notifying @WP:FAC coordinators: , @WP:FAR coordinators: , @WP:TFA coordinators of this discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- In broad terms I like WhatamIdoing's suggestion. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would not be opposed to either. Hog Farm Talk 18:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Only 2 paragraphs" is about three times as much as I think people will read. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Fine with me too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Things got a bit confusing here with the suggestion of "no one in charge" and recent edits to WP:FA that (seemed???) to introduce a proposed "about" section. WAID's original proposal is to create a separate About page. I'd agree on that (even though I doubt most complainers would actually read it), but some of the proposed wording (above) needs adjustment:
Featured Articles are some of the best articles at the English Wikipedia. They are written by volunteers about subjects of their own choosing, and judged by other volunteers against the featured article criteria. Each day, volunteers select one of the newly approved articles as today's featured article. If you would like to see a new subject featured on the Main Page, you can learn about contributing to Wikipedia.
Not "just" random volunteers, but community-endorsed Coords, and not just "newly approved" ... they can include those that recently passed FAR, and the TFA date can be well removed from when the article was passed FAC or FAR. So:
Featured articles (FAs) are some of the best articles at the English Wikipedia. They are written by volunteers about subjects of their own choosing, and evaluated by other volunteers against the featured article criteria. Each day, Today's featured article coordinators select one of the FAs to be featured on Wikipedia's main page. If you would like to see a new subject featured on the Main Page, you can learn about contributing to Wikipedia.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I separately suggest the page name for this text would not be About Featured articles, rather About Today's featured article ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I strongly prefer both of your suggestions to my original idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Once we get more feedback, I can put up a formal proposal ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- PS, I'm concerned that someone (?? who are those in the know ??) let us know that we have the space to add another link at {{TFAfooter}}. I don't know who we should be pinging on that ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:01, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia There is room to add some more in there, maybe 20-ish characters unless we can remove some from somewhere else maybe (So "About Today's featured articles" is a bit long) for some screens. What would you want the line to say in its entirety, optimally? — xaosflux Talk 18:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, that help! That's what I was afraid of Ok, so what if we took this line in the TFAfooter:
- Archive By email More featured articles
- and re-jigged it somehow along these lines to use abbreviations?
- TFA archive By email More FAs About TFAs
- which would require making the lead line (before the TFA) define the acronym ... From today's featured article (TFA) Otherwise, unsure how we can do this ... it is the eternal character limit issue. That would address the character limit problem, but would introduce a lot of acronyms, which can be offputting ... WAID, do we know how many readers request TFA via email? Is it worth considering dropping that to save characters instead? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:15, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Or, we could just use "About" for the new link, and let them sort it out :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, that help! That's what I was afraid of Ok, so what if we took this line in the TFAfooter:
- @SandyGeorgia There is room to add some more in there, maybe 20-ish characters unless we can remove some from somewhere else maybe (So "About Today's featured articles" is a bit long) for some screens. What would you want the line to say in its entirety, optimally? — xaosflux Talk 18:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I strongly prefer both of your suggestions to my original idea. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia: here is what we have now:
- It could hold more like this:
- I'm only thinking about small mobile screens when considering brevity here. — xaosflux Talk 18:22, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- The only thing that would fit there, then, is TFA, and for that we'd have to define the acronym in the header before the blurb. Unless someone has another idea. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia is the goal of such another link to tell about the "TFA" process, or to explain about what a "FA" is? — xaosflux Talk 18:28, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's to explain what is in my second blurb at 14:47, 15 July 2022. That kind of does a bit of both: it explains to those complaining that sorta/kinda "no one is in charge" (you can help!) along with links to those places where you can help, while also explaining that TFAs can only be chosen from the pool of FAs we've got. It's telling a bit about each process: what an FA is, how that status is conferred, and how one is chosen to be featured on the main page ... while reminding the complaining reader that we're all volunteers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd think an About may do (at least it's a start!) - a page for it to go to will be needed, since the section is already titled "...today's featured article" it should be natural that this is about this section - so if it start with a short blurb explaining what today's FA is on the landing page it should be natural. Maybe Wikipedia:About Featured Articles or something similar? "Everyday volunteers pick ....." (Just brainstorming the landing page - go wild with it!) — xaosflux Talk 18:41, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do you dislike the wording above that WAID and I concur on? I don't want to re-invent the wheel, and risk having pages get out of sync, along with becoming too long. It would be ideal to keep this short, just as in the proposal above. And I'd rather it be Wikipedia:About Today's featured article, as explained in my post above. That said, if we can do that, I agree that just calling the link "About" ought to work, and avoid character limitation problems. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia I'm not too picky on the verbiage there, just want it to include at least a little encouragement for people to know that there is something that they can do (and that the best way to see a change is to be be the change!). Feel free to start whatever you want that page to be, the first edit doesn't have to be FA quality — xaosflux Talk 19:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Don't really want to start it without having a formal proposal, and getting full feedback from FAC, FAR and TFA :) Just the way I roll, particularly because it deals with the highly visible content ... I'll put up a formal proposal after a few days. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia I'm not too picky on the verbiage there, just want it to include at least a little encouragement for people to know that there is something that they can do (and that the best way to see a change is to be be the change!). Feel free to start whatever you want that page to be, the first edit doesn't have to be FA quality — xaosflux Talk 19:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do you dislike the wording above that WAID and I concur on? I don't want to re-invent the wheel, and risk having pages get out of sync, along with becoming too long. It would be ideal to keep this short, just as in the proposal above. And I'd rather it be Wikipedia:About Today's featured article, as explained in my post above. That said, if we can do that, I agree that just calling the link "About" ought to work, and avoid character limitation problems. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd think an About may do (at least it's a start!) - a page for it to go to will be needed, since the section is already titled "...today's featured article" it should be natural that this is about this section - so if it start with a short blurb explaining what today's FA is on the landing page it should be natural. Maybe Wikipedia:About Featured Articles or something similar? "Everyday volunteers pick ....." (Just brainstorming the landing page - go wild with it!) — xaosflux Talk 18:41, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's to explain what is in my second blurb at 14:47, 15 July 2022. That kind of does a bit of both: it explains to those complaining that sorta/kinda "no one is in charge" (you can help!) along with links to those places where you can help, while also explaining that TFAs can only be chosen from the pool of FAs we've got. It's telling a bit about each process: what an FA is, how that status is conferred, and how one is chosen to be featured on the main page ... while reminding the complaining reader that we're all volunteers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia is the goal of such another link to tell about the "TFA" process, or to explain about what a "FA" is? — xaosflux Talk 18:28, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- The only thing that would fit there, then, is TFA, and for that we'd have to define the acronym in the header before the blurb. Unless someone has another idea. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- One thing to keep in mind, is that Wikipedia is a volunteer-based organization. You cannot make, coerce, encourage, or alter the behavior of volunteers in any meaningful way; you don't pay them, they have no obligation to do anything except what they feel like doing for the encyclopedia, so if a topic is in any way under-represented, there is exactly one thing, and one thing only, anybody has the ability to do to fix that: they can write the articles themselves. You can feel free to ask for help, but you should never expect that anyone would ever help, they don't have to, and we need to not have that expectation. If FAs are skewed because certain topics are under-represented, there is absolutely no way that you can get anyone except yourself to fix it. You can't take random Wikipedia editors and make them work on the topics that are needed to provide a better balance of FAs. The only thing anyone can do is do it themselves. If there are multiple like-minded people, feel free to collaborate, but just "taking care of it oneself" is literally the only means to fix it. --Jayron32 18:19, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. But WAID's proposal is intended to alert our readers in a way that will encourage them to get involved and discourage complaints. See the separate discussion linked above at the Village Pump, Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Racial bias in Wikipedia featured articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, it's probably a good idea, but I also expect next to no effect on the amount of complaints; people who complain frequently start complaining first, and find something to complain about along the way. If they were interested in fixing the problem, they would be already fixing the problem, and not complaining. Add your link if it makes you feel better, but it won't actually divert any complaints. --Jayron32 18:55, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I mostly agree ... but we can hope, and try to do it in a way that doesn't cause any harm at least, and is informative to meet WAID's concerns. I want to keep the blurb we plan to add very short, sweet and simple. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Jayron, I prefer to believe that the complainants are thinking we have merely accidentally overlooked this problem, and that they therefore optimistically hope that pointing out the concern could realistically lead to a rapid resolution. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- I mostly agree ... but we can hope, and try to do it in a way that doesn't cause any harm at least, and is informative to meet WAID's concerns. I want to keep the blurb we plan to add very short, sweet and simple. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, it's probably a good idea, but I also expect next to no effect on the amount of complaints; people who complain frequently start complaining first, and find something to complain about along the way. If they were interested in fixing the problem, they would be already fixing the problem, and not complaining. Add your link if it makes you feel better, but it won't actually divert any complaints. --Jayron32 18:55, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. But WAID's proposal is intended to alert our readers in a way that will encourage them to get involved and discourage complaints. See the separate discussion linked above at the Village Pump, Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Racial bias in Wikipedia featured articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Formal proposal to add "About" link to TFA blurb on main page
Other discussion:
- See Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Racial bias in Wikipedia featured articles
- See background discussion of WhatamIdoing's proposal above, #About FAs
- Notifying FAC,[1] FAR,[2] TFA,[3] Village pump[4]
In the Today's featured article blurb (sample), the {{TFAfooter}} now has:
The proposal initiated by WhatamIdoing is to add an "About" link to {{TFAfooter}}:
The About link contains a brief explanation intended to clarify some of the concerns raised about systemic bias, explain that the daily choices are generated by volunteers, and give a very brief overview of how FAs come to be featured on the main page, without overwhelming, and while providing links to encourage those who wonder about Wikipedia's TFA choices to become involved.
Featured articles (FAs) are some of the best articles at the English Wikipedia. They are written by volunteers about subjects of their own choosing, and evaluated by other volunteers against the featured article criteria. Each day, Today's featured article coordinators select one of the FAs to be featured on Wikipedia's main page. If you would like to see a new subject featured on the Main Page, you can learn about contributing to Wikipedia.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion of proposal to add "About" link
- Per the explanations and modifications above, I believe this (minimal) addition of five characters to the main page blurb has the potential to help address some confusion, and I support WhatamIdoing's initiative. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support, having read the Village Pump discussion. "Featured article" means something else to Wikipedians than it does to people out there, so the explanation is valuable. --Andreas JN466 20:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reiterating my support after the correction Sandy notes below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support. I note that this proposal has its roots in complaints about TFA bias and there is already a Main Page FAQ subsection that deals with this topic. Should that be worked in or linked to? Schwede66 10:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- That thing is miserably long and unlikely to be read, but I'll start a separate discussion at Wikipedia talk:About Today's featured article re whether we should include a See also link to it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support Reasonable. --Jayron32 11:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support Graham Beards (talk) 11:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Restating my support.Graham Beards (talk) 12:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Jayen466, Mike Christie, Schwede66, Jayron32, and Graham Beards: from the discussion above, I had edit copy-pasted in the wrong version of text: see this change to the version agreed upon in the discussion above. Sorry for the goof! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support -I think this is an improvement over what we already have. I also support a see also link to Wikipedia:FAQ/Main_Page. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 14:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support the concept, but would prefer a clearer label such as "What is a Featured Article?" --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:17, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
ITN
I don't know if this this the correct venue where to mention some doubts, but as to me Shinzo Abe was assassinated and not is assassinated. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 09:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Paradise Chronicle: Per the instructions at WP:ITN, all blurbs use present tense. Quoting the guidelines "Blurbs should describe events in complete sentences, in the present tense." I hope that helps. If you have any further questions, please let us know. --Jayron32 11:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the explanation. And I should probably have read the instructions before coming to this venue with this question.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- A silly practice which should be abolished. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Has this been discussed? I mean if the image of the NASA was released days ago, it is not in the news in the present tense. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's not Wikipedia's rule. It's a standard way news headlines/blurbs have been written and has been long codified in style guides since before you were likely born. Your lack of knowledge of the practice does not make it silly, nor does it mandate a fresh discussion every time someone who doesn't know the standards comes along to demonstrate their lack of knowledge. Use present simple tense for past events, The widespread use of the present tense in headlines is one of the defining characteristics of the register of news headlines, Headlines are written in the historical present tense. That means they written are in present tense but describe events that just happened., Headlines often use the present simple, even where the report refers to a past event., https://www.myenglishteacher.eu/blog/why-the-headlines-of-newspapers-are-often-in-present-tense/. I can find a thousand more such examples of how to write blurbs and headlines, all of which note the widespread and common use of present tense as the defining feature of news blurbs. --Jayron32 11:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. News headlines are always written in the present tense, and remain so no matter how old they are. See "President Obama wins four more years as America delivers decisive verdict" for example, it's nine and a half years old but they haven't switched it to using the past tense yet. This is common style throughout sources. — Amakuru (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm quite aware of it. Still silly. And especially so when used here, considering that Wikipedia is not a newspaper in the first place and ITN is explicitly said not to be a news ticker. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- That you, as a singular user, have a feeling about something doesn't affect widespread practice. Your feelings are internal to you, and have no bearing on the world outside of your mind. That you find something silly is meaningless. It still is. --Jayron32 13:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Which still avoids the question of why something that is explicitly said not to be a news ticker is following the style of new tickers. Changing the tense of the listings in ITN would tend to highlight the fact that it isn't a news ticker and possibly reduce the occurrence of complaints based on the misapprehension that it is. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- So start an RFC or something. I have no power to fix anything, so stop telling me about it and start fixing the problem! --Jayron32 15:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support an RfC. At least in the interest to prevent such questions like the one I had and much more to avoid such a discussion that followed in the future. Assume good faith. And I also found some news which are not in the present tense, so the always is not correct here. Obama reelected as president was a headline of the Washington Post on the 7 December 2012, the day after the election. Obama Re-elected on 6 December by the Voice of America... I am sure there are more. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I've not done anything in this conversation that would lead a reasonable person to believe I didn't think you were acting in good faith. I cannot change practice at Wikipedia, so requests for me to do so are futile. I can provide information as to why the practice exists at Wikipedia, which is exactly and only what I did. I cannot, however, fix the problem you are having. You have two choices: 1) stop having a problem or 2) go to WP:VPP and write an RFC to fix your problem. I don't have the kind of power everyone seems to think I do here. I'm just a guy, not the entire community. --Jayron32 18:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support an RfC. At least in the interest to prevent such questions like the one I had and much more to avoid such a discussion that followed in the future. Assume good faith. And I also found some news which are not in the present tense, so the always is not correct here. Obama reelected as president was a headline of the Washington Post on the 7 December 2012, the day after the election. Obama Re-elected on 6 December by the Voice of America... I am sure there are more. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- So start an RFC or something. I have no power to fix anything, so stop telling me about it and start fixing the problem! --Jayron32 15:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Which still avoids the question of why something that is explicitly said not to be a news ticker is following the style of new tickers. Changing the tense of the listings in ITN would tend to highlight the fact that it isn't a news ticker and possibly reduce the occurrence of complaints based on the misapprehension that it is. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- That you, as a singular user, have a feeling about something doesn't affect widespread practice. Your feelings are internal to you, and have no bearing on the world outside of your mind. That you find something silly is meaningless. It still is. --Jayron32 13:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm quite aware of it. Still silly. And especially so when used here, considering that Wikipedia is not a newspaper in the first place and ITN is explicitly said not to be a news ticker. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. News headlines are always written in the present tense, and remain so no matter how old they are. See "President Obama wins four more years as America delivers decisive verdict" for example, it's nine and a half years old but they haven't switched it to using the past tense yet. This is common style throughout sources. — Amakuru (talk) 11:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's not Wikipedia's rule. It's a standard way news headlines/blurbs have been written and has been long codified in style guides since before you were likely born. Your lack of knowledge of the practice does not make it silly, nor does it mandate a fresh discussion every time someone who doesn't know the standards comes along to demonstrate their lack of knowledge. Use present simple tense for past events, The widespread use of the present tense in headlines is one of the defining characteristics of the register of news headlines, Headlines are written in the historical present tense. That means they written are in present tense but describe events that just happened., Headlines often use the present simple, even where the report refers to a past event., https://www.myenglishteacher.eu/blog/why-the-headlines-of-newspapers-are-often-in-present-tense/. I can find a thousand more such examples of how to write blurbs and headlines, all of which note the widespread and common use of present tense as the defining feature of news blurbs. --Jayron32 11:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Has this been discussed? I mean if the image of the NASA was released days ago, it is not in the news in the present tense. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)