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== CBS Nielsen Ratings (2020-2021 TV Season) == |
== CBS Nielsen Ratings (2020-2021 TV Season) == |
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==== Background ==== |
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To fill a slot in the [[CBS]] schedule, [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)|season 1]] of ''[[Star Trek: Discovery]]'' was shown on Thursday, at 10pm Eastern. Meanwhile, [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)|season 3]] had begun streaming. Unlike the first episode of the show, the episodes shown on CBS had previously been released on [[CBS All Access]]. |
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==== Discussion ==== |
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{{quote|Three years after premiering on [[CBS]], the network began airing [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)|season 1]] of ''Discovery'', on Thursdays from September 24; these broadcast episodes averaged 1.712 million viewers and a 0.21 rating.<ref>{{cite web |title=Star Trek: Discovery: Season One Ratings |url=https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/ |website=canceled + renewed TV shows - TV Series Finale |access-date=6 July 2022 |date=5 February 2021}}</ref>}} |
{{quote|Three years after premiering on [[CBS]], the network began airing [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)|season 1]] of ''Discovery'', on Thursdays from September 24; these broadcast episodes averaged 1.712 million viewers and a 0.21 rating.<ref>{{cite web |title=Star Trek: Discovery: Season One Ratings |url=https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/ |website=canceled + renewed TV shows - TV Series Finale |access-date=6 July 2022 |date=5 February 2021}}</ref>}} |
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::Finally, even if you do provide the necessary sources to support the inclusion of this data, it 100% should not be in this article. The viewership section here is a summary of all of the viewership data that we have at each season article and is meant to give readers an overview of the series' performance. Putting this rerun ratings information at the same level as the actual streaming viewership data that we have is [[WP:UNDUE]], and mentioning the reruns at all at this level is trivial. If you can provide the sources that discuss this data, to put it into the correct context and confirm that it is noteworthy, then I will probably support having it in the reception section of [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)]] (which does already mention the CBS reruns, by the way). But it does not belong here. - [[User:Adamstom.97|adamstom97]] ([[User talk:Adamstom.97|talk]]) 08:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
::Finally, even if you do provide the necessary sources to support the inclusion of this data, it 100% should not be in this article. The viewership section here is a summary of all of the viewership data that we have at each season article and is meant to give readers an overview of the series' performance. Putting this rerun ratings information at the same level as the actual streaming viewership data that we have is [[WP:UNDUE]], and mentioning the reruns at all at this level is trivial. If you can provide the sources that discuss this data, to put it into the correct context and confirm that it is noteworthy, then I will probably support having it in the reception section of [[Star Trek: Discovery (season 1)]] (which does already mention the CBS reruns, by the way). But it does not belong here. - [[User:Adamstom.97|adamstom97]] ([[User talk:Adamstom.97|talk]]) 08:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::That’s true, the context of the CBS airings is so different, a completely different headspace incompatible with that of when it’s actually first received. Minds are already made up, and fans of the show probably already have it at their disposal and did not ''need'' the CBS airings to satiate. Granted not everyone consistently keeps a subscription but these factors say a lot to the unclear picture of what the CBS audience is supposed to represent [[User:CreecregofLife|CreecregofLife]] ([[User talk:CreecregofLife|talk]]) 08:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
:::That’s true, the context of the CBS airings is so different, a completely different headspace incompatible with that of when it’s actually first received. Minds are already made up, and fans of the show probably already have it at their disposal and did not ''need'' the CBS airings to satiate. Granted not everyone consistently keeps a subscription but these factors say a lot to the unclear picture of what the CBS audience is supposed to represent [[User:CreecregofLife|CreecregofLife]] ([[User talk:CreecregofLife|talk]]) 08:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::{{reply to|Adamstom.97}} Using a the number of edits you have, to justify the control of content and repeated removal of one sentence, which I don't think is particularly [[WP:BOLD]] is egregious. Your continued argument that any season-specific information should be relegated to the respective page and simply ignored, does not make sense, either, given the other considerations available. Attempting to misuse policies, to continue your overwatch is also not an attribute to your apparent expertise: [[WP:STATUSQUO]] is intended for where conflicting wording on the same point should revert to the previous norm, not where new information is added, which does not interfere with original sections, and removed based on one individual's decision. Despite what you are trying to say as an "expert editor," you are not the [[WP:KING]]. |
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::::{{quote|Instead of reverting, ''insert an appropriate tag'' indicating the text is under discussion.|source=[[Wikipedia:Reverting#Avoid reverting during discussion|Wikipedia editing advice, regarding reverting edits]]}} |
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::::Although you may have edited other shows' pages, content inclusion is [[WP:CBC]], and the background of a limited number of other shows first being streamed, then broadcast on network TV means there are few pages to create direct comparisons - even if you look for almost analogous events (such as cable to broadcast). Despite your repeated point that episodes had already been streamed, the fact that it was on [[CBS]], in the same time slot as several top 30 shows is not the equivalent of being rerun in a local market or basic cable at 5pm. While not the same as being the exclusive premiere, which is of course a consideration when analysing or comparing, it is still noteworthy as the only, so far, continuous airing and industry-standard measured viewership for the entire series. |
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::::It is implied by your decision to remove the Nielsen ratings, that you find it likely to be "misleading," which would be more reasonable to say, had no mention of being "three years after premiering" or had it displaced other analytic methods. Neither does it state, in the article, that the TV ratings are the exclusive ratings - that is your reading, hence derived viewpoint, which does not necessarily automatically transfer to every reader. It is considerably more [[WP:UNDUE]] to regard two select streaming guides, with an arbitrary "20 million users" mention, and no direct connection that can [[WP:VERIFY]] a [[WP:PRECISE]] viewership or the general standing on [[CBS All Access]]/[[Paramount+]]. |
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::::To say including one line on season 1's broadcast performance is [[WP:TOOMUCH]] is just unbelievable, and to say there cannot be any series and season overlap, is just as wrong. It has not been prominently placed, does not contradict other information, and does not prioritise broadcast over streaming premiere. It is the rule, rather than the exception, to include firm overview/average statistics, where available; this is the case for ''Discovery'' and these season 1 figures, unless [[Paramount+]] begin sharing more data, as opposed to an unknown number that constitute "Parrot Analytics's 15th most in-demand from 20 million users." I'll say it once more, you are not [[WP:KING]] and should not [[WP:BITE]] by asserting how many edits you have. There is now a [[WP:DISCUSSION]], which is how it should be, when you have a concern, especially over something practically [[WP:MINOR]]. -- [[w:en:User:Bacon Noodles|<span style="font-family: Courier New; font-size:115%;">'''Bacon Noodles'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Bacon Noodles|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bacon_Noodles|contribs]] • [[c:Special:ListFiles/Bacon_Noodles|uploads]]) 20:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::{{reply to|CreecregofLife}} You're right about the source and editorial posts; in the context of the CBS ratings, it's more of an indirect source for [[Nielsen Media Research|Nielsen]] because the raw data is more of a niche publication for insiders, compared to the weekly top-10 on their website. There were a few other websites, along similar styles (TV blogs, Trek stuff, etc.) that stated the same statistics and source, but it was the least commentary-heavy and most data-rich of the most prominent sources I could see. -- [[w:en:User:Bacon Noodles|<span style="font-family: Courier New; font-size:115%;">'''Bacon Noodles'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Bacon Noodles|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bacon_Noodles|contribs]] • [[c:Special:ListFiles/Bacon_Noodles|uploads]]) 20:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:34, 6 July 2022
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Reliable, Reputable, Serious
Could someone please supply a source for the arbiters of "Reliable" or, "Reputable", or "serious"? Those terms could all too easily devolve into "weasel-words" suited to the views of one, or a few particular editors and reduce overall objectivity. Sochwa (talk)
- @Sochwa: You just have to read WP:RS to understand reliable sources in Wikipedia. Robynthehode (talk) 13:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
There's more than a professional critic's perspective of any television show or movie, any work of art. Noting the public reception of especially controversial art is useful in any reference work, including wikipedia. An average person would read this page and not know much that is relevant in not only the overall evaluation of the art but in it's production history. A blurb would do, and there are many reputable sources that mention the full scope of public response to this artistic work. I haven't the time or the inclination to attempt to fight with potentially heavy-handed editors, but partisan evaluation of art is not the vision of wikipedia that I hold dear as a disinterested general reader. I'm not interested in star trek, but I've heard from enough people complaining about this interpretation that I thought to see what is mentioned on wikipedia. Nothing at all is mentioned. Though a cursory internet search demonstrates heated and ongoing conversation. This disconnect between what is presented in a public reference work and what is actually the case is concerning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.127.52.235 (talk • contribs)
- You're not bringing anything new to the table, so I'm just going to be blunt. If you can't cite a single reliable source that talks about any of this, then it's probably because you're a fringe minority viewpoint. DonQuixote (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- I mean it has a reader score of 38% on Rotten Tomatoes, and an IMDB rating of 7.2, which makes it the lowest rated Star Trek series ever. Anecdotally speaking I don't know anyone who actually likes Discovery. This article represents a fringe view as far as Star Trek audiences are concerned. If it represents the general consensus of "reliable sources" then wikipedia must be broken on a fundamental level. 2607:FEA8:54E2:1D00:217D:5176:6F39:CA3F (talk) 01:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hey there, buddy - you should probably pump the brakes a bit on presenting your opinion here. You don't speak for Star Trek or ST audiences, so perhaps clue in on the fact that your opinion doesn't equal fact or a Reliable Source. If you need help in understanding how this all works, just ask. Tantrums are a very poor way to ask for assistance. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi there little pal - you should probably take a step back and wipe that foam off your mouth, as I was doing no such thing (unlike this sad and dishonest article). The audience ratings that I mentioned, as well as the show's pathetic viewership says a lot more than I ever could in the most elaborate of opinion pieces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:54E2:1D00:A4AF:F540:CD98:6A99 (talk • contribs)
- Hey there, buddy - you should probably pump the brakes a bit on presenting your opinion here. You don't speak for Star Trek or ST audiences, so perhaps clue in on the fact that your opinion doesn't equal fact or a Reliable Source. If you need help in understanding how this all works, just ask. Tantrums are a very poor way to ask for assistance. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- Audience scores on RT or IMDB are not reliable as only a very small amount of the audience uses either website... and your not knowing anyone in your friend group that likes it is also not notable... I actually enjoy the show, but that's not notable ether and why we only use reliable sources. Spanneraol (talk) 02:37, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- Totally disagree with this. Audience scores on RT and IMDB have a much larger sample size than critics' scores. Therefore, the latter are less reliable. Also, TV series are made for the public and not for critics. From this statistical review, you can see that critics and general audience are drifting farther apart, especially for productions with low audience scores. --Rocator (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
- How is an easily manipulated metric more reliable than a stable metric? CreecregofLife (talk) 06:10, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
- If only you could see the irony in such a reply... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:54E2:1D00:A4AF:F540:CD98:6A99 (talk) 02:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Unless you provide a citation of a reliable source known for fact checking and/or peer review, nothing can be done. DonQuixote (talk) 11:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Totally disagree with this. Audience scores on RT and IMDB have a much larger sample size than critics' scores. Therefore, the latter are less reliable. Also, TV series are made for the public and not for critics. From this statistical review, you can see that critics and general audience are drifting farther apart, especially for productions with low audience scores. --Rocator (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
- I mean it has a reader score of 38% on Rotten Tomatoes, and an IMDB rating of 7.2, which makes it the lowest rated Star Trek series ever. Anecdotally speaking I don't know anyone who actually likes Discovery. This article represents a fringe view as far as Star Trek audiences are concerned. If it represents the general consensus of "reliable sources" then wikipedia must be broken on a fundamental level. 2607:FEA8:54E2:1D00:217D:5176:6F39:CA3F (talk) 01:58, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Continuity Issue.
At the risk of starting a war I want to point out that the Character of Adira Tal is NOT the first Human to bond with a Trill Symbiant. That title temporarily went to Commander Riker in Star Trek The Next Generations Episode "The Host" where the Trill race were introduced in the first place in 1991. Furthermore, Adira Tal is also not the first Gender Binary character as in TNG Episode "The Outcast" there was an entire planet of people who were "Gender Binary" in 1992.
I had earlier attempted to correct this error slightly to a more correct statement, and was told and i quote: "this is sourced information, and even with a source for those examples they don't really seem to count".
It's this same line of thinking that has people like Disney for example take credit for the first CGI animated feature in an effort to Cancel ReBoot on the ABC Network.
Wikipedia I had thought was more interested in Truth than Opinion especially where credit was due. Just because we don't like those old episodes doesn't mean they don't count or didn't come first. You can't just pretend they didn't happen!
What do we do when a source however official is wrong/mistaken?
It's more appropriate to say that Adira Tal is the first Human (However ludicrous) to "Permanently" bond with a Symbiant and is the first Gender Binary "Main" character or actor.
It's the truth especially if Kurtzman claims his show is canonical with the original history and not JJ Abrams Kelvin Timeline.
Maxcardun (talk) 2:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is interested in what is verifiable, not what you think is true, so that's why I said this was sourced information. As for if we should make the changes, if Riker was only temporarily bonded then that means Adira is still the first human to actually bond, and the fact that they are the first main/proper character to be non-binary doesn't need to be explained. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
No, Riker is the first to be bonded even if it was temporary. You could argue that Adira is the first series regular human to be bonded but not the first human.
That's the key word isn't it, "Bonded"? Just be glad that I'm not trying to explain how that used to not be impossible or how contemporary directors and producers are breaking the rules to tell whatever the heck they want. I have said what I said, nothing is going to make me think that it's not true, I don't expect anyone to change it just because I've said it. Especially when seasoned editors who seem to be keeping an eye on me for some reason try to push me around about it. That's all I'm going to say.
Maxcardun (talk) 4:09, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The key word is actually real world emphasis. "Bonded" is in-universe jargon and isn't as important as what reliable sources are talking about. If you want to read/write in in-universe style, there's the Star Trek wikis or even your own fansite. DonQuixote (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The cited source does not state that Adira is the first human to bond with a Trill symbiont. AJD (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
In a similar vein, Gray is not the first trans character in Star Trek. Dax had previously lived as both men and women prior to its two female incarnations in DS9. I'm assuming we'll disregard Quark's brief sex change, various other Trill, any number of shapeshifters, possessions, body swaps, hive minds, Q, computers, wild-west-holodeck-gone-wrong versions, weird mask probe versions, women pretending to be various male devil figures, androids created gender-neutral and then choosing a gender, transporters, transponders, transceivers, transtators, translocators, transwarp conduits, Trans Francisco and transparent aluminum Dybeck (talk) 08:06, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Out of all of those, Dax is the strongest example of a transgender main character. In fact Sisko would always refer to them as "old man", due to their interactions in a previous host. One of those examples of a concept existing before obtaining its modern definition, but I question the reliability of the source claiming firsts. -- sarysa (talk) 23:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
DVDs
Am curious as to why no mention of the DVD sets or release dates when many other series' entries have such sections/charts. 2600:8800:22C:F700:A0B2:361F:5973:10D4 (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please see the home media table in the release section. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Rottentomatoes Average audience score
It should be noted, that wiki is giving tomatometer scores, which are rarely low for any show, but unlike with other shows, Star Trek: Discovery has 2x lower "average audience score", which looks like AN ANOMALY. That anomaly should be noted. Apparently, most of the actual people who were watching(or stopped watching, because why bother) ST:D actually does not share the same opinions as reviews are sharing. I came here to see how the 4th season was doing, but oh well... PS I stopped watching this show, because the main genre of ST:D is not sci-fi anymore, but belongs to the same genre, that Bible belongs to(it also is a fiction but nothing to do with a science). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.27.15 (talk) 00:10, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- You need to cite a reliable source that talks about any of this. DonQuixote (talk) 01:08, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- The lower scores is because of review bombing.. and we never list RT audience scores. Spanneraol (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- The genre is called fantasy. @Spanneraol: What is strange, RT cited as a reliable source while also an unreliable one. Just looking at this talk page shows there is something fishy about the whole situation, also, RT has anti review bombing measures, so it's very unlikely, that the audience score was bombed and the critic was not. Unless, of course, you can cite a reliable source that there was a review bombing on RT. See how loopy these ways of thinking sound? A source can be reliable and unreliable at the same time, the reviews are bombed and not bombed, but only one of them needs a citation... 80.99.156.192 (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Seriously, The Times is considered a reliable source but the Letters to the Editor published in The Times is not. It's not that hard to understand. DonQuixote (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- The genre is called fantasy. @Spanneraol: What is strange, RT cited as a reliable source while also an unreliable one. Just looking at this talk page shows there is something fishy about the whole situation, also, RT has anti review bombing measures, so it's very unlikely, that the audience score was bombed and the critic was not. Unless, of course, you can cite a reliable source that there was a review bombing on RT. See how loopy these ways of thinking sound? A source can be reliable and unreliable at the same time, the reviews are bombed and not bombed, but only one of them needs a citation... 80.99.156.192 (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- The lower scores is because of review bombing.. and we never list RT audience scores. Spanneraol (talk) 01:19, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- I find it very unfortunate that there is this determination to shut down negative response to this series. Someone else had cited the low ratings of viewers on RT contrasted against reviewer scores. While supporters of the show want to ignore that number and call it review bombing reading through those reviews it's easy to see that's not the case. Balance is the key to Wikipedia and not providing a balanced view diminishes any positive benefit Wikipedia has as a reference source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 12:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Again, you're not bringing anything new to the table. WP:USERG specifically says not to use user reviews. Again, to be completely blunt, if you can't cite a single reliable secondary source with a reputation for fact checking and/or peer review, then it's probably because you're a fringe minory viewpoint that shouldn't be given more voice then present (see WP:DUE -- specifically
articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint
-- and WP:false balance -- specificallyWikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity
). - On a side note, I think it's time for a FAQ at the top. DonQuixote (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Again, you're not bringing anything new to the table. WP:USERG specifically says not to use user reviews. Again, to be completely blunt, if you can't cite a single reliable secondary source with a reputation for fact checking and/or peer review, then it's probably because you're a fringe minory viewpoint that shouldn't be given more voice then present (see WP:DUE -- specifically
White washed article?
Where is the negative criticism in this article? Why is there only the biased review from rt and meta? No audience rating? No sign of the intense negative backlash from a lot of Star Trek fans worldwide? Whats wrong with WP? KhlavKhalash (talk) 19:22, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- See above discussions which address this issue. Spanneraol (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Proposed FAQ
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Q1: Why isn't there any negative criticism or mention of the fan backlash?
A1: Wikipedia policy requires that all material be verifiable to reliable, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Additionally, sources must be reliable for the topic at hand and their viewpoints must be given appropriate weight in proportion to their prominence among all others. The article reflects the viewpoints represented in reliable sources.
Q2: Why aren't user reviews or audience ratings used?
A2: Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. User reviews are user-generated content. And although review aggregators (such as Rotten Tomatoes) may be reliable, their audience ratings based on the reviews of their users are not.
DonQuixote (talk) 14:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- I get the intent but how would it be implemented? In the top collapsible template?--CreecregofLife (talk) 15:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- See template:FAQ. DonQuixote (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- I support this move, we've been getting the same questions here for years. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- I support it too. I imagine that a lot of regressive/anti-progressive people push such content through in the name of fairness, when they just want to give their cruelty a platform. Hopefully this repels it--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- That's very funny actually. You are pushing your own agenda here by denying very real negative reaction to the series. Just to see what was the reaction on IMDB in terms of user reviews it skewed out as this:
- 1/10 1,167
- 2/10 371
- 3/10 298
- 4/10 224
- 5/10 215
- 6/10 162
- 7/10 194
- 8/10 362
- 9/10 345
- 10/10 660
- I understand the idea some want to drape this as ‘regressive’ response because it may not agree with someone's personal viewpoint but there is validity when you look at the reviews across the spectrum. There is a very clear negative response to the franchise and it has more to do with bad writing than anything else but the intransigent stance is just a form of denial. It's really very disappointing honestly more than anything else that wikipedia will not report in an unbiased manner. There is a very clear response to this franchise across the spectrum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 00:42, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Seriously, dude, user-generated content is explictly unacceptable per WP:USERG. That was half the FAQ right there. The other half is that you need to cite a reliable source saying that there actually is a "real" negative reaction--otherwise it's just your anecdote which in-and-of-itself isn't going to be taken seriously by any tertiary source like Wikipedia. The more you refuse to cite reliable sources known for fact-checking, the more you paint yourself as a fringe minory viewpoint who's no more credible than flat-earthers. DonQuixote (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Also, gee, I wonder why the reactions peaked with the first episode? Because that’s all the negative energy they could muster to reviewbomb. They couldn’t keep it up the entire season because in order to keep any levity to it they’d actually have to watch. That such tantrums should be given a platform is ludicrous--CreecregofLife (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you’re showing your own ignorance, those ratings are of the franchise overall not a single episode so as far as your speculation that it’s review bombing that’s far from the case. You made the mistake in thinking that each of the reviews were by episode and they were not. Rather, the intention was to provide a spectrum of the reviews the franchise has received and obviously it has been trending differently than you would like. It’s the same case on other sites as well but you choose to ignore that for your own reasons and again it’s somewhat disappointing that Wikipedia is showing bias rather than giving a balanced viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 01:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Unless you publish your observations and analysis in a reliable source known for fact-checking and/or peer review, tertiary sources like Wikipedia can't do anything with your original research. DonQuixote (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- So, to understand this clearly... reviews, which are opinion and not factual in any way - just a subjective judgment of a work of art, are not valid unless you ‘feel’ they should be recognized? Audience response across a variety of sources is going to be totally ignored because you don't agree with that viewpoint. Wow, that sounds really factual (well, maybe not factual as much as farcical). Got it. See the earlier comment regarding presenting unbiased view on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Reviews by professionally published critics are included. Review bomb attempts by random anonymous internet users are not. It's not a hard concept, and is the same across Wikipedia. Especially since the bitching of haters is irrelevant to the fact that the show is well generally well-received and a commercial success, which is a plain fact evidenced by its multiple seasons and continued renewals. Loud whiners don't count, and YouTube is full of lying clickbait seekers. oknazevad (talk) 21:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- That’s a nice lie you want to tell yourself. Variety has run articles on this: https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/big-brother-abc-game-shows-star-trek-discovery-tv-ratings-1234783699/ the ratings for season 1 on broadcast have come in: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/ and when articles such as this are written you choose to ignore them because they are negative: https://redshirtsalwaysdie.com/2020/09/26/star-trek-discovery-low-ratings-cbs/ so it's not review bombing at all regardless of how you want to paint it and this just proves how biased this article is. If you're telling me this is normal for Wikipedia then in one fell swoop you have just condemned Wikipedia as any kind of useful reference source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 15:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Reruns of episodes already streamed by millions don't mean jack and you know it. Already renewed for a fifth season. Keep whining while the rest of the world actually watches the show. oknazevad (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- I’m curious... where is the actual DATA to back this statement up? I don’t see anything that actually gives viewership numbers outside of you flapping your gums on this. Do you have a source you can point to that gives us the actual numbers for streaming? I haven’t found any outside of the data that we have for the broadcast ratings.
- Reruns of episodes already streamed by millions don't mean jack and you know it. Already renewed for a fifth season. Keep whining while the rest of the world actually watches the show. oknazevad (talk) 02:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- If you want to cite those sources for low TV ratings for reruns of a pay service show, feel free to do so, although reruns aren't generally noteworthy so you probably won't get a consensus on that. DonQuixote (talk) 16:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ha, see... I’ve given you sources and reviews clearly laying out a different narrative than the one you present here on this page but you keep changing the rules at each go round. First you indicate it’s only reviews from established sources and I’ve given you that as well as the Variety article and the actual numbers for the broadcasts of Season 1. You just don’t like the fact it proves what you are trying so desperately to ignore. The show is a hot mess. The writing is bad. Now, that’s my own subjective opinion granted but you are ignoring every indicator there is a mass of folks out there who are not receiving this well. Also, since Paramount+ chooses not to release viewership the way other streaming services do, we only have the ratings for broadcast to go on and they are horrendous. The page needs major cleanup if only to present a more balanced view of the reception but again if the mods here are so very determined to ignore that you are only indicting the validity of Wikipedia as an unbiased reference source. The show and it’s direction has been a problem from the beginning as indicated by incredible turnover in production on it. Mind you, I think people REALLY wanted to like this but it’s just not good. The ratings numbers we do have for it are just more proof of that. Let’s take it one step further... in terms of overall viewership Paramount Plus comes in 12th of 12 for streaming services (https://screenrant.com/ten-most-popular-streaming-services-ranked-subscriber-numbers/) this is not a major hit in anyone’s book and if it was when it did hit broadcast it would have generated a lot more eyeballs because the streaming service just doesn’t reach the viewers other streaming services do. But, look... you guys win. If you don’t want to push a balanced view that’s your business again, it speak volumes to what Wikipedia has become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 01:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- "Not a major hit by any means" And your metric is reruns. You lack context. The only bias here is yours--CreecregofLife (talk) 02:55, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- As stated earlier, Paramount does not release viewer or ratings on any of the shows on its streaming service. It is ranked 12th in a listing of the 12 most popular streaming services and the numbers that have been released include Showtime and BET+ so( https://screenrant.com/ten-most-popular-streaming-services-ranked-subscriber-numbers/ ) it is impossible at this juncture to actually gauge how popular the series is on streaming aside from the fact that with a sizeable fanbase when the first season ran on broadcast there were still many people who hadn’t seen the show and the numbers were abysmal. If the show was as good as is made out, it would have garnered higher ratings and driven traffic to the streaming service which it appears it did not. While you want to position these numbers as numbers for reruns you presuppose that Paramount+ has huge market penetration which it does not. Characterizing ‘whining’ is a bit childish. You wanted verification and you have been given such verification. Further, the show has not received any recognition for acting, directing or writing by either the Emmys or the Golden Globes. What mainstream awards it has won have been for visual effects and makeup. But, again I will not change the page to reflect reality when it is obvious there is a concerted effort to shut down any objectivity by a few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 02:47, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- "Not a major hit by any means" And your metric is reruns. You lack context. The only bias here is yours--CreecregofLife (talk) 02:55, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ha, see... I’ve given you sources and reviews clearly laying out a different narrative than the one you present here on this page but you keep changing the rules at each go round. First you indicate it’s only reviews from established sources and I’ve given you that as well as the Variety article and the actual numbers for the broadcasts of Season 1. You just don’t like the fact it proves what you are trying so desperately to ignore. The show is a hot mess. The writing is bad. Now, that’s my own subjective opinion granted but you are ignoring every indicator there is a mass of folks out there who are not receiving this well. Also, since Paramount+ chooses not to release viewership the way other streaming services do, we only have the ratings for broadcast to go on and they are horrendous. The page needs major cleanup if only to present a more balanced view of the reception but again if the mods here are so very determined to ignore that you are only indicting the validity of Wikipedia as an unbiased reference source. The show and it’s direction has been a problem from the beginning as indicated by incredible turnover in production on it. Mind you, I think people REALLY wanted to like this but it’s just not good. The ratings numbers we do have for it are just more proof of that. Let’s take it one step further... in terms of overall viewership Paramount Plus comes in 12th of 12 for streaming services (https://screenrant.com/ten-most-popular-streaming-services-ranked-subscriber-numbers/) this is not a major hit in anyone’s book and if it was when it did hit broadcast it would have generated a lot more eyeballs because the streaming service just doesn’t reach the viewers other streaming services do. But, look... you guys win. If you don’t want to push a balanced view that’s your business again, it speak volumes to what Wikipedia has become. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 01:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- That’s a nice lie you want to tell yourself. Variety has run articles on this: https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/big-brother-abc-game-shows-star-trek-discovery-tv-ratings-1234783699/ the ratings for season 1 on broadcast have come in: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/ and when articles such as this are written you choose to ignore them because they are negative: https://redshirtsalwaysdie.com/2020/09/26/star-trek-discovery-low-ratings-cbs/ so it's not review bombing at all regardless of how you want to paint it and this just proves how biased this article is. If you're telling me this is normal for Wikipedia then in one fell swoop you have just condemned Wikipedia as any kind of useful reference source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 15:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Reviews by professionally published critics are included. Review bomb attempts by random anonymous internet users are not. It's not a hard concept, and is the same across Wikipedia. Especially since the bitching of haters is irrelevant to the fact that the show is well generally well-received and a commercial success, which is a plain fact evidenced by its multiple seasons and continued renewals. Loud whiners don't count, and YouTube is full of lying clickbait seekers. oknazevad (talk) 21:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- So, to understand this clearly... reviews, which are opinion and not factual in any way - just a subjective judgment of a work of art, are not valid unless you ‘feel’ they should be recognized? Audience response across a variety of sources is going to be totally ignored because you don't agree with that viewpoint. Wow, that sounds really factual (well, maybe not factual as much as farcical). Got it. See the earlier comment regarding presenting unbiased view on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Unless you publish your observations and analysis in a reliable source known for fact-checking and/or peer review, tertiary sources like Wikipedia can't do anything with your original research. DonQuixote (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately you’re showing your own ignorance, those ratings are of the franchise overall not a single episode so as far as your speculation that it’s review bombing that’s far from the case. You made the mistake in thinking that each of the reviews were by episode and they were not. Rather, the intention was to provide a spectrum of the reviews the franchise has received and obviously it has been trending differently than you would like. It’s the same case on other sites as well but you choose to ignore that for your own reasons and again it’s somewhat disappointing that Wikipedia is showing bias rather than giving a balanced viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 01:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Also, gee, I wonder why the reactions peaked with the first episode? Because that’s all the negative energy they could muster to reviewbomb. They couldn’t keep it up the entire season because in order to keep any levity to it they’d actually have to watch. That such tantrums should be given a platform is ludicrous--CreecregofLife (talk) 02:49, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Seriously, dude, user-generated content is explictly unacceptable per WP:USERG. That was half the FAQ right there. The other half is that you need to cite a reliable source saying that there actually is a "real" negative reaction--otherwise it's just your anecdote which in-and-of-itself isn't going to be taken seriously by any tertiary source like Wikipedia. The more you refuse to cite reliable sources known for fact-checking, the more you paint yourself as a fringe minory viewpoint who's no more credible than flat-earthers. DonQuixote (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- That's very funny actually. You are pushing your own agenda here by denying very real negative reaction to the series. Just to see what was the reaction on IMDB in terms of user reviews it skewed out as this:
- I support it too. I imagine that a lot of regressive/anti-progressive people push such content through in the name of fairness, when they just want to give their cruelty a platform. Hopefully this repels it--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- I support this move, we've been getting the same questions here for years. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Mr IP 71, you are reaching SO MUCH it is embarrassing for you. It’s not childish to call your whining whining because you keep crawling back trying to get every whine out there. The only reason you don’t want us calling it such is because softer language would help legitimize your ludicrous stance. The flaws in your data are very apparent, now please, don’t touch anyone on your way out.--CreecregofLife (talk) 07:50, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- @71.190.233.44 You need to cite reliable sources stating how any of that is important, otherwise no one's going to take your original research seriously. DonQuixote (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- CreecregofLife, I see there's been talk about bouncing you as an editor and now I can see why. Your behavior here is the same behavior that continues to get you into trouble. As far as citing reliable sources, I've given a bunch of links I really can't see how they are any less valuable than some of the other sources cited on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- You're going to need reliable sources on that too. Just because youve shared a bunch of links doesn't mean they were shared in a context that actually pertains to what you seek to prove--CreecregofLife (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- You're going to need reliable sources that directly say something like
If the show was as good as is made out, it would have garnered higher ratings and driven traffic to the streaming service which it appears it did not
, etc. because right now it's just you, which in-and-of-itself constitutes original research from an anonymous internet person without any verifiable reputation or credibility. Wikipedia works by reflecting the views of reuptable sources. DonQuixote (talk) 03:16, 12 February 2022 (UTC)- I don't even understand why he chooses to lie. He's not looking for evidence regarding its P+ performance, otherwise he would've found this: Paramount+: ‘Star Trek: Discovery’, ‘iCarly’, ‘Infinite’ & ‘A Quiet Place 2’ Top Most Watched Originals List. He's being completely disingenuous and pretending things are a certain way when they're not--CreecregofLife (talk) 03:29, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- Funny, I don’t see any actual numbers posted in that article.Do you have a site that actually provides that data and the only viewership numbers we have is for broadcast again which can be found here: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/star-trek-discovery-season-one-ratings/ and which is not self published.
- CreecregofLife, I see there's been talk about bouncing you as an editor and now I can see why. Your behavior here is the same behavior that continues to get you into trouble. As far as citing reliable sources, I've given a bunch of links I really can't see how they are any less valuable than some of the other sources cited on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 23:57, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- @71.190.233.44 You need to cite reliable sources stating how any of that is important, otherwise no one's going to take your original research seriously. DonQuixote (talk) 11:55, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- See template:FAQ. DonQuixote (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ratings aren’t even an indicator of quality, or else the cratering of non-sports ratings would mean every show on network and most of cable sucks now. And because of all the different types of shows, that means claims of “nobody’s into wokeness” would be disproven because such would prove nobody’s into anything anymore--CreecregofLife (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Now that it’s up, why are they both marked at 1?--CreecregofLife (talk) 08:26, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- That error was already fixed, perhaps you need to WP:PURGE? - adamstom97 (talk) 09:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Nope, between two separate devices and several hours passing, it's showing up fine now--CreecregofLife (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Changes in templates sometimes takes an hour or so to update. DonQuixote (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Nope, between two separate devices and several hours passing, it's showing up fine now--CreecregofLife (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
So what makes critics on Rotten Tomatoes realiable source, when every, single audience score place Discovery as total junk? Same as Batwoman? Kanikosen (talk) 14:03, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- Gee I wonder what Discovery and Batwoman have in common? Stop giving audience scores the same weight as critics--CreecregofLife (talk) 14:11, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- High critical acclaim for being deverse and catastrophic user ratings and reviews. Same how with Joker is other way around. So mind telling me why is every single site where public can vote, Discovery score abysmal? Kanikosen (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you take an introductory statistics class to learn why self-selection polls are unreliable. DonQuixote (talk) 15:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- Apparently racism and sexism don't cross his mind as a reason why the user ratings are so poor. That it has nothing to do with show quality--CreecregofLife (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- Wow, racism and sexism? Really? Seems as if you’re bringing your own biases to the table here. Let’s put this into context then... Dominique Tipper in The Expanse does a far better job than Sonequa Martin-Green in Discovery. It’s better writing and better acting. Now, that’s my OPINION and doesn’t belong up on a Wikipedia article anymore than your claims of racism and sexism do because you don’t appreciate the reception for Discovery. It’s not the entire property either that’s bad because there are elements of it that I do believe are being received quite well. However, overall there have been things like the tenet that the Burnham character is a Mary Sue ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-iux27wT8A ) and the funny thing about your earlier comment here is that the article you cite states the following: "THERE ARE NO HARD NUMBERS as no streamer besides Netflix has released viewership stats yet but there is a list of some of Paramount+’s top performers" but as stated we DO have hard numbers for the broadcast of Season 1. Again, you’ve gotten more than enough references showing that the property is NOT being well received but choose to ignore that. Again, I’m not editing the page here. The thing is that that is not being reflected on the page and IT SHOULD BE. That’s the only thing I’m saying. I’ll make this easier for you... you win. Again, it’s more about presenting an unbiased source and ignoring that there has been significant negative reaction from fans is putting a finger on the scale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 04:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- High critical acclaim for being deverse and catastrophic user ratings and reviews. Same how with Joker is other way around. So mind telling me why is every single site where public can vote, Discovery score abysmal? Kanikosen (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
- Every single site on Internet where people can vote is infiltrated by racist and sexim? Every single one? And introductory statistics will explain why say, youtube reviews of discovery are 95% negative, and 4% mixed with only 1% positive? So all those people are racists and sexist? Why is not same for DS9 (black captain, transgender crewmembers) and Voyager (woman captain, usa minority in command crew)? Kanikosen (talk) 04:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- You two are being utterly ridiculous and your tantrums here show this discussion is no longer worth advancing--CreecregofLife (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Sure thing, your aspersions about racism and sexism are shown to be false and consequently your argument proves to be ridiculous. Again, it’s not a question about anything other than presenting things in an unbiased light and the overall fan reaction is a part of that and it has been largely negative. When the series aired on broadcast it didn’t draw eyes, it’s as simple as that. Those are hard numbers and much more valid than the article you cited which doesn’t give us anything to back up the claims. I apologize to others for even engaging in this discussion as I can see it’s gone far afield of the original intent which was to get a more balanced presentation on the page of the response to the series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 04:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- No, your intent was bias towards audiences who aren't actually the audience and to give them undue weight--CreecregofLife (talk) 04:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- That statement is just a mind boggling display of logic, "bias towards audiences who aren't actually the audience" so what you are in essence stating is anyone who comes away with a negative view of the work should be ignored - "we" only want to acknowledge the people who like it. Priceless. Further, I guess there is just this one or a few very racist/sexist person(s) who appear to be going around posting all these responses. At least that’s my takeaway from the continued and purposeful lack of acknowledgement about fan response across the spectrum. I call that denial and again, I’ve provided a variety of sources regarding, this including the data we have actual numbers on. You have yet to show any actual data on what the viewership is on the 12th ranked streaming service because Paramount doesn’t release those numbers. Reading the article here I would come away with a very different idea of Discovery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 14:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Unless you guys start citing reliable sources, none of what you guys say or claim will make it into the article proper per WP:CITE and WP:RS. And whether or not you learn that self-selection polls are unreliable (for example, from a statistics class), Wikipedia will not accept user generated content per WP:USERG. Also, read WP:DUE and WP:false balance--that is, there will be no "balancing" if you don't start citing reputable reliable sources. DonQuixote (talk) 12:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- And also, viewership of a season on broadcast released 3 years prior on streaming isn’t an indicator of quality or fan reaction in any way. Some great movies have been box office flops.--CreecregofLife (talk) 15:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- What is a reliable source, as so far if I post critic who say that the discovery is bad show I will be labeled sexist, racist will be to quote who aren't actually the audience and to give them undue weight? So where do you get who is the audience? Reading this article in this form you would think Discovery is a great show, and not bad. Same as Batwoman. Kanikosen (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- The people who actually watch the show are the audience. If you haven't watched a show since season one and the show has much more content than that, then leaving a non-substantial review holds no weight. Please sit down and listen.--CreecregofLife (talk) 16:38, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Self-published sources aren't considered reliable sources (also see WP:RSPYT). You can get a general idea of what constitutes a reliable source by starting at WP:RS. DonQuixote (talk) 17:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- "The people who actually watch the show are the audience." (LOL) Maybe you should simply add the sentence that the show is popular with people who like the show. I’ve watched all four seasons and truthfully it’s gotten to the point where I can simply fast forward through certain scenes because they don’t advance the plot at all and it’s just chewing scenery. As far as self-published sourcing goes, the majority of the links I have provided you are not from self-published sources, you choose to ignore them but again don’t mind me or all the other folks who apparently aren’t all that happy with it. It’s just a sad commentary on the effort to shut down balanced views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 22:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- What you lack is context, and your lack of context means your sources have no relevance here. It does not sufficiently make your point.--CreecregofLife (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- It’s not so much a question of any of the sources lacking context, it’s more a question of choosing desperately to ignore them because it doesn’t agree with your viewpoint. At various times you have accused people of being racist or sexist, you’ve said that the only actual numbers we have are for reruns although it’s the only actual numbers that are available for the show (since Paramount+ doesn’t give actual numbers on viewership). We’ve got info from Variety and other sources but you are desperate in your attempts to try and spin this. Honestly, I’m past the point of caring as much as it’s fun to watch you keep trying to justify your position. Feel free to continue to flail it’s fun to watch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 03:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- What is a reliable source, as so far if I post critic who say that the discovery is bad show I will be labeled sexist, racist will be to quote who aren't actually the audience and to give them undue weight? So where do you get who is the audience? Reading this article in this form you would think Discovery is a great show, and not bad. Same as Batwoman. Kanikosen (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- And also, viewership of a season on broadcast released 3 years prior on streaming isn’t an indicator of quality or fan reaction in any way. Some great movies have been box office flops.--CreecregofLife (talk) 15:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Unless you guys start citing reliable sources, none of what you guys say or claim will make it into the article proper per WP:CITE and WP:RS. And whether or not you learn that self-selection polls are unreliable (for example, from a statistics class), Wikipedia will not accept user generated content per WP:USERG. Also, read WP:DUE and WP:false balance--that is, there will be no "balancing" if you don't start citing reputable reliable sources. DonQuixote (talk) 12:19, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Sure thing, your aspersions about racism and sexism are shown to be false and consequently your argument proves to be ridiculous. Again, it’s not a question about anything other than presenting things in an unbiased light and the overall fan reaction is a part of that and it has been largely negative. When the series aired on broadcast it didn’t draw eyes, it’s as simple as that. Those are hard numbers and much more valid than the article you cited which doesn’t give us anything to back up the claims. I apologize to others for even engaging in this discussion as I can see it’s gone far afield of the original intent which was to get a more balanced presentation on the page of the response to the series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 04:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- You two are being utterly ridiculous and your tantrums here show this discussion is no longer worth advancing--CreecregofLife (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
I think it's safe to close this thread, since there is no more productive discussion happening about improving the FAQ with reliable sources. Politanvm talk 16:41, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I do think it's best. Their case got ridiculous pretty quickly--CreecregofLife (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
CBS Nielsen Ratings (2020-2021 TV Season)
Background
To fill a slot in the CBS schedule, season 1 of Star Trek: Discovery was shown on Thursday, at 10pm Eastern. Meanwhile, season 3 had begun streaming. Unlike the first episode of the show, the episodes shown on CBS had previously been released on CBS All Access.
Discussion
Three years after premiering on CBS, the network began airing season 1 of Discovery, on Thursdays from September 24; these broadcast episodes averaged 1.712 million viewers and a 0.21 rating.[1]
@Adamstom.97: Although I can appreciate your desire to keep the page focused, your removal of new referenced information, under a relevant (and not newly-added) section, simply because of your own view, is not a positive contribution and I disagree with your choice to remove the single sentence about how many measured viewers actually watched through a TV channel.
"[...] Ratings for reruns aren't usually noteworthy and can be misleading" is your opinion, added onto the fact of the statistics. It is a perfectly valid viewpoint, however, it is that - your opinion. If you didn't want to come across as you have, the right thing would have been to add a clarification that episodes had already been streamed, and to identify a source to cite, which includes analysis on whether the viewership of Discovery were high/low in relation to this (the top Google result on "Star Trek Discovery CBS ratings" includes analysis on possible reasons and comparisons: Giant Freakin' Robot). The audacity in simply removing it because you appear to want to take lead on the page is impolite, to say the least.
Neglecting the only completely public viewership statistics for the entire show does not make sense, simply because of minor considerations, which can be easily addressed. There is more relevance in Nielsen being a non-selective, figures not being direct opinion, it was the first broadcast of an entire season, the free-to-air CBS audience is distinct from the subscription-based CBS All Access, and offering an insight into reception for seasons 1 and 3 as a result of being simultaneously shown on the different platforms; not being the first showing does not invalidate this, but was still noted.
If you still disagree, which you are free to, then state your reasons as to why it should not be mentioned or why you didn't have the decency to transfer it to another page you felt was relevant. If your point is indeed purely organisational, there are other sections where relocating would help achieve whatever you feel is ideal.
It is my intention, to revert the page, so that the Nielsen statistics are included because I feel they objectively contribute to the page's wider information on viewership; so, please, do not blindly revert without a valid reason to, as it is not a sign of good faith. -- Bacon Noodles (talk • contribs • uploads) 06:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t think the information is bad to include, but I have seen TV Series Finale described as unreliable, but maybe it’s just the general news reporting part than the ratings reporting. I was able to find StarTrek.com’s article about that those airings would be happening, it can at least verify that they were scheduled/happening, if you so wish. I think the actual reception in the audience reaction way would be colored by being acquired programming used to bide time to get their original programs going again during that phase of the pandemic, not unlike The CW’s continued reliance on such even into 2022-23. CreecregofLife (talk) 07:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Bacon Noodles: firstly, your behaviour here is out of line. Adding the same WP:BOLD change to an article three times and ignoring clear explanations from an experienced editor who disagrees with them, not to mention good faith guidelines such as WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO, is edit warring. Just because you "feel" that your change is good does not mean you get to force it upon the article before consensus to make the change is found at the talk page. The onus is on you to justify your change here and get support for it, not on me to get support for having it removed. Please revert your latest edit until this discussion is complete.
- I disagree that "Ratings for reruns aren't usually noteworthy and can be misleading" is just my opinion, I was making an objective statement. It is definitely my experience working on TV articles that we only include the first run ratings for the day of release plus the next week or month if available. I have never seen rerun ratings added to an article and I don't think it is difficult to work out why that would be the case. It is also definitely the case that presenting rerun ratings as the only actual ratings for the season like this is misleading, and once again the onus is on you to alleviate that by providing further context and analysis yourself. You can't add bad data to an article and demand that other users put in the work for you. If you think this data is noteworthy and not misleading then you need to provide the sources to support that.
- Finally, even if you do provide the necessary sources to support the inclusion of this data, it 100% should not be in this article. The viewership section here is a summary of all of the viewership data that we have at each season article and is meant to give readers an overview of the series' performance. Putting this rerun ratings information at the same level as the actual streaming viewership data that we have is WP:UNDUE, and mentioning the reruns at all at this level is trivial. If you can provide the sources that discuss this data, to put it into the correct context and confirm that it is noteworthy, then I will probably support having it in the reception section of Star Trek: Discovery (season 1) (which does already mention the CBS reruns, by the way). But it does not belong here. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- That’s true, the context of the CBS airings is so different, a completely different headspace incompatible with that of when it’s actually first received. Minds are already made up, and fans of the show probably already have it at their disposal and did not need the CBS airings to satiate. Granted not everyone consistently keeps a subscription but these factors say a lot to the unclear picture of what the CBS audience is supposed to represent CreecregofLife (talk) 08:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Adamstom.97: Using a the number of edits you have, to justify the control of content and repeated removal of one sentence, which I don't think is particularly WP:BOLD is egregious. Your continued argument that any season-specific information should be relegated to the respective page and simply ignored, does not make sense, either, given the other considerations available. Attempting to misuse policies, to continue your overwatch is also not an attribute to your apparent expertise: WP:STATUSQUO is intended for where conflicting wording on the same point should revert to the previous norm, not where new information is added, which does not interfere with original sections, and removed based on one individual's decision. Despite what you are trying to say as an "expert editor," you are not the WP:KING.
Instead of reverting, insert an appropriate tag indicating the text is under discussion.
- Although you may have edited other shows' pages, content inclusion is WP:CBC, and the background of a limited number of other shows first being streamed, then broadcast on network TV means there are few pages to create direct comparisons - even if you look for almost analogous events (such as cable to broadcast). Despite your repeated point that episodes had already been streamed, the fact that it was on CBS, in the same time slot as several top 30 shows is not the equivalent of being rerun in a local market or basic cable at 5pm. While not the same as being the exclusive premiere, which is of course a consideration when analysing or comparing, it is still noteworthy as the only, so far, continuous airing and industry-standard measured viewership for the entire series.
- That’s true, the context of the CBS airings is so different, a completely different headspace incompatible with that of when it’s actually first received. Minds are already made up, and fans of the show probably already have it at their disposal and did not need the CBS airings to satiate. Granted not everyone consistently keeps a subscription but these factors say a lot to the unclear picture of what the CBS audience is supposed to represent CreecregofLife (talk) 08:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- It is implied by your decision to remove the Nielsen ratings, that you find it likely to be "misleading," which would be more reasonable to say, had no mention of being "three years after premiering" or had it displaced other analytic methods. Neither does it state, in the article, that the TV ratings are the exclusive ratings - that is your reading, hence derived viewpoint, which does not necessarily automatically transfer to every reader. It is considerably more WP:UNDUE to regard two select streaming guides, with an arbitrary "20 million users" mention, and no direct connection that can WP:VERIFY a WP:PRECISE viewership or the general standing on CBS All Access/Paramount+.
- To say including one line on season 1's broadcast performance is WP:TOOMUCH is just unbelievable, and to say there cannot be any series and season overlap, is just as wrong. It has not been prominently placed, does not contradict other information, and does not prioritise broadcast over streaming premiere. It is the rule, rather than the exception, to include firm overview/average statistics, where available; this is the case for Discovery and these season 1 figures, unless Paramount+ begin sharing more data, as opposed to an unknown number that constitute "Parrot Analytics's 15th most in-demand from 20 million users." I'll say it once more, you are not WP:KING and should not WP:BITE by asserting how many edits you have. There is now a WP:DISCUSSION, which is how it should be, when you have a concern, especially over something practically WP:MINOR. -- Bacon Noodles (talk • contribs • uploads) 20:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @CreecregofLife: You're right about the source and editorial posts; in the context of the CBS ratings, it's more of an indirect source for Nielsen because the raw data is more of a niche publication for insiders, compared to the weekly top-10 on their website. There were a few other websites, along similar styles (TV blogs, Trek stuff, etc.) that stated the same statistics and source, but it was the least commentary-heavy and most data-rich of the most prominent sources I could see. -- Bacon Noodles (talk • contribs • uploads) 20:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- ^ "Star Trek: Discovery: Season One Ratings". canceled + renewed TV shows - TV Series Finale. 5 February 2021. Retrieved 6 July 2022.