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Archiving references
(I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct place for this discussion, but I think it is the most relevant.)
So I personally try to make sure to keep all my additions and edits properly referenced, but it's frustrating when looking at pages (especially about older events) to try to go through to a link and find it doesn't exist anymore. Even more frustrating is when you try to find an archived version of it and there isn't that either. I was wondering should we add a policy to archive references when adding them? I.e. for each reference you add, you need to go into an archiving website (for example archive.ph or Wayback Machine) and make sure there is an archived version (and if there isn't, save one). Perhaps having this as general policy is too much, but at minimum it should be in my opinion a requirement for Good Pages and Featured Pages (as well as filling out the "archive-url" parameter).
Alternatively, I know there are bots/tasks which fill-out bare references, so perhaps this would be a good task for an automated process, to scour Wikipedia and save archived versions for references that don't have them?
Waiting for your thoughts and suggestions, -- SuperJew (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @SuperJew: Have you had a look at InternetArchiveBot? You can also manually run it (I personally try to run it on pages I come across from time to time using the handy link in MoreMenu) — TNT (talk • she/her) 15:08, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I've seen that bot occasionally add an archivelink. But as far as I understand is what it does is add an archive link if there is an archived link already in the databases and doesn't actively archive the web page. Or does it? Anyways would be happy to hear more about the suggestion to have this as part of policy. -- SuperJew (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- It'll actively archive the links (would recommend selecting
Add archives to all non-dead references (Optional)
so that it'll make an archive copy before the link dies!) — TNT (talk • she/her) 15:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- There is a program called NoMo404 that monitors the EventStreams for additions of new URLs on Wikipedia (on any language and project). When it detects a URL, it captures that page into the WaybackMachine. This system has been running since about 2015, although there were some earlier systems and site scans. It should happen within 24hrs at most. There is no guarantee to captures everything however so it might a good idea to verify after a few days. Older links are the most trouble since many have long since died and have no archives anywhere. -- GreenC 15:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @TheresNoTime and GreenC: Thanks for your answers. Okay the IAB and MoreMenu are great! Loving them :) I do think most of the pages I had problems with were before 2015, so that computes. I think, on the technical side I got good answers :) The remaining question is if we should have policy that Good Pags and Featured Pages must have archived links on all references (all pages is too much of a stretch since we still have pages which are unreferenced or have bare references). --SuperJew (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- At a minimum it would be wise policy every link in GA/FA is verified to have at least one if not two archives available somewhere. That doesn't mean archive links need to be in the article, today, but at least available for future use. Two because for example WaybackMachine will sometimes take archives offline at owner request so what exists today might not in the future (a very small percentage). Other general options are archive.today and ghostarchive.org .. we recently lost the entire webcitation.org provider which was the second largest on Enwiki for a while these things can (and probably will) happen with smaller single-owner sites. -- GreenC 16:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- It might be a good idea for someone to voluntarily do that, but I would not make it a requirement. Editors are regularly surprised to discover that GA doesn't even require consistently formatted references. The actual rule for citations in Wikipedia:Good article criteria is "Dead links are considered verifiable only if the link is not a bare url. Using consistent formatting or including every element of the bibliographic material is not required, although, in practice, enough information must be supplied that the reviewer is able to identify the source." This is because GA is about writing a decent article and very much not about following every jot and tittle of the MOS or engaging in the kind of polishing that is most efficiently done by a specialist with a script. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: So in your opinion, a good article is an article with information which can be false and there's no way to verify it due to it being sourced to a dead link? --SuperJew (talk) 19:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion, Wikipedia:Good articles are the articles that meet the Wikipedia:Good article criteria.
- I have also discovered that it is sometimes – perhaps even frequently – true that there are ways to verify information even if the cited URL is a dead link, or even if there is no citation at all. I suspect that you would agree with me that there is a significant gap between "it's not necessarily quick and easy for me to verify this information because the link is dead" and "there's no way to verify it". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: So in your opinion, a good article is an article with information which can be false and there's no way to verify it due to it being sourced to a dead link? --SuperJew (talk) 19:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- It might be a good idea for someone to voluntarily do that, but I would not make it a requirement. Editors are regularly surprised to discover that GA doesn't even require consistently formatted references. The actual rule for citations in Wikipedia:Good article criteria is "Dead links are considered verifiable only if the link is not a bare url. Using consistent formatting or including every element of the bibliographic material is not required, although, in practice, enough information must be supplied that the reviewer is able to identify the source." This is because GA is about writing a decent article and very much not about following every jot and tittle of the MOS or engaging in the kind of polishing that is most efficiently done by a specialist with a script. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- At a minimum it would be wise policy every link in GA/FA is verified to have at least one if not two archives available somewhere. That doesn't mean archive links need to be in the article, today, but at least available for future use. Two because for example WaybackMachine will sometimes take archives offline at owner request so what exists today might not in the future (a very small percentage). Other general options are archive.today and ghostarchive.org .. we recently lost the entire webcitation.org provider which was the second largest on Enwiki for a while these things can (and probably will) happen with smaller single-owner sites. -- GreenC 16:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @TheresNoTime and GreenC: Thanks for your answers. Okay the IAB and MoreMenu are great! Loving them :) I do think most of the pages I had problems with were before 2015, so that computes. I think, on the technical side I got good answers :) The remaining question is if we should have policy that Good Pags and Featured Pages must have archived links on all references (all pages is too much of a stretch since we still have pages which are unreferenced or have bare references). --SuperJew (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- It'll actively archive the links (would recommend selecting
- Yes, I've seen that bot occasionally add an archivelink. But as far as I understand is what it does is add an archive link if there is an archived link already in the databases and doesn't actively archive the web page. Or does it? Anyways would be happy to hear more about the suggestion to have this as part of policy. -- SuperJew (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I do not support mandatory archiving. For one, we already fail to force people to properly format their references. Requiring them to do something which requires more technical knowhow and the use of outside tools is not going to improve anything. The bot itself has issues with picking its archive links; earlier this month me and another user were collaborating on an article, and the other user activated the bot. The bot did a lot of heavy lifting but repeatedly added an archive link for a Google books reference I had used, problem was it was using an archived version of the Korean Google books page that also did not include any preview of the actual text, making it utterly garbage for verification purposes (which is why we archive stuff in the first place). -Indy beetle (talk) 16:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I understand your point and it's why I said
all pages is too much of a stretch since we still have pages which are unreferenced or have bare references
. However, regarding GA/FA, I think it could be a smart requirement. And the reviewer would of course go into the archived page to verify it, as the reviewer goes into references to verify them. -- SuperJew (talk) 17:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I understand your point and it's why I said
Although Wayback Machine is a useful archiving tool, it is not perfect. I have several times encountered situations where snapshots disappeared permanently without explanation. As the retention policies are unclear and afaik largely non-public, such incidents are practically impossible to forecast. Granted that they seem rare, the possibility is still there, in which case a second archive would make sense. But requiring archives may not be the best option, and could backfire. Some editors could understandably balk at the work required and avoid adding the URL instead. Or even the entire citation if it depends on a URL. 68.173.78.83 (talk) 00:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
I resist mandatory archiving because I encounter editors to see WP:PLRT, and possibly other policies, as license to run IABot – which in user mode adds all archive links, not only where it detects the originals have died, which it does when it runs by itself – on pages they are apt to have no other interest in curating. When the useless additions amount to tens of thousands of characters, I'm likely to revert, and sometimes have to explain myself to an unhappy editor. Is adding all archive links the default mode for a user-initiated IABot run. Can it be changed? Should the preventing-link-rot policies be regarded as encouraging massive bot runs, or do they, as I interpret them, suggest that the tool be used only by those actively checking the results (as by those first creating the citation) and limited in the number of citations changed at any one time? Dhtwiki (talk) 23:30, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why is it a problem to add an archive link to a page which currently is live? -- SuperJew (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Such a reversion seems unwarranted. Archiving pages while they are live is the entire point, no? I've seen people do that on pages I frequent, even if they have no other interest in the subject. In contexts where link rot is particularly common (either due to bad web hygiene or censorship, or both, in the case of articles about e.g. contemporary Chinese issues), that should be especially welcomed. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 00:32, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about the 10K files, but space is so cheap even with WPs massive amount of users
- There doesn't seem to be a current number on Wikipedia:Size of Wikipedia - Wikipedia, but at a guess maybe 20 TB and 50GB of text. So, why don't we keep our own archive as a back up for the Internet archive? Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Wikimedia Foundation and the Internet Archive are "long-term partners.Google and the Internet Archive are the first customers to pay for commercial access to Wikipedia content (a correction in the article states that the Internet Archive does not pay for access to Wikipedia content.) I seriously doubt that the Foundation will let the Internet Archive go away without ensuring the archives will survive. - Donald Albury 15:47, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you're running IABot and it's adding lots of archive links, how are you sure that you're preventing link rot if you're not checking the archive snapshots?, which I doubt very much people are doing, thus creating a false sense of having solved the problem, as well as undermining the need to check references periodically and artisanally, realizing that links go away due to website reorganization as much as websites dying. And setting up the extra links as clickable events must take a considerable amount of time, especially on underpowered machines, such as a netbook I was using, which took an inordinate amount of time to render articles with over, say, 500 references. So, it's not just what Wikipedia servers can handle or even assuming that everyone has broadband. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:04, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- Which is why I've started adding archive links (including having IA archive a link if it has not already done so) to citations when I add them. Ideally, we want a link to an archived page that is as close to the date the material supported by the cited source was added to the article as possible. And when I try to recover a link using the Wayback Machine, I do try to verify that the archived page does look like it supports the material in the article. All of that slows me down, but I have long given up any idea that I can save Wikipedia by myself, and just content myself with what I can do. - Donald Albury 17:52, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Why is pending changes review an exclusive right?
Any autoconfirmed editor can copy a pending change into their own edit, but they can't approve the change or edit on top of it. Why's that? Since pending changes protection is about vandalism, it seems unlikely that a random editor would approve a bad edit by an IP. Galagora (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify, an editor making a change is always editing the latest version of the article in question, including all pending edits. As you allude to, this edit will also become a pending change until it is reviewed by a pending changes reviewer. isaacl (talk) 20:20, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- But can't an editor edit an old version of the article and copy the pending change over? Galagora (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- If the editor just wants to include all pending edits, there's no need to manually copy anything. Editing the current version will include all of them. If they want to leave out some pending changes, then they can start with an older version. This is the same as with any article that is not under pending changes protection.
- Pending changes protection only alters what is shown to non-logged in users; it doesn't affect editing. A non-reviewer can't make their edit visible to non-logged in users. After one pending change is made, all subsequent edits are pending changes until a reviewer reviews them. isaacl (talk) 23:11, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, I was thinking of it like Git, where if you branch off of an old revision you get a new history with all the edits after that revision gone. So your edit would be the next edit after the old revision. But actually, basing your edit on an old revision just undoes all the subsequent changes in your edit, instead of discarding them from the history, so your edit still goes to pending changes review.
- But I still don't understand why only a select group can review pending changes. It seems like a simple thing that any editor can do. Galagora (talk) 14:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- "unlikely that a random editor would approve a bad edit by an IP". It's wonderfully optimistic but I'm afraid that's far from the case - random editors do all sorts of unhelpful stuff (when they're not being helpful or harmless). Just being autoconfirmed is not incredibly different from being an IP editor. There are some editors with thousands of edits who don't have a clue. At least with a manually assigned right there is some sort of sanity check. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- But now we have a situation where an autoconfirmed user can vandalise the article themselves, but, as soon as an IP makes an edit (good or bad), any of the autoconfirmed user's edits can only show after review. So there's no protection from autoconfirmed vandalism until an IP happens to make an edit. Galagora (talk) 14:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- "unlikely that a random editor would approve a bad edit by an IP". It's wonderfully optimistic but I'm afraid that's far from the case - random editors do all sorts of unhelpful stuff (when they're not being helpful or harmless). Just being autoconfirmed is not incredibly different from being an IP editor. There are some editors with thousands of edits who don't have a clue. At least with a manually assigned right there is some sort of sanity check. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- But can't an editor edit an old version of the article and copy the pending change over? Galagora (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Helps to think of this from some use cases, for example:
- There is a good page with PC1
- An IP makes some small vandalism (like changes a date)
- A good faith editor comes by the article (not in response to recent changes review, etc) and adds something useful to it like a new paragraph
- In this use case, the bad vandalism is still there, and readers are still being protected from being exposed to the bad edit. Someone that knows what their doing about review pages will eventually get to the page in the backlog and hopefully discard the vandalism, keep the good addition, and make the page live for readers. Now with all of this being said, @Galagora are your questions about the protection policy answered? — xaosflux Talk 14:30, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- OK, that makes sense. You can edit the page without vouching for the pending changes beforehand. This answers the question, thanks. Galagora (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Also @Galagora, as to why the decision was made to separate it into an exclusive right, using xaosflux's scenario, a reviewer in that situation would be prompted to screen any previous unreviewed edits for vandalism, which is a task they have opted in to. However, if every autoconfirmed user was prompted to review past edits for vandalism, a large majority would probably have no interest in doing so and would just approve their own edits without checking the rest of the article. The system just makes more sense if it's limited to actual anti-vandalism volunteers. But I do remember at the time it was rightfully acknowledged as taking rights away from the community, and there was a clear intent PCR was to be viewed as re-granting rights that autoconfirmed users used to possess by default: the right to review any edit and the right to make any edit. For this reason, the user right is essentially granted to any editor upon request. Granting guidelines are minimal. In the beginning, it was granted to many active editors without request, for that reason, it was viewed as reinstating existing rights that the community is entitled to. So you have to opt back in to the role, but anyone can opt in. ~Swarm~ {sting} 15:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- OK, that makes sense. You can edit the page without vouching for the pending changes beforehand. This answers the question, thanks. Galagora (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- PCR should autogrant with autoconfirmed or at the same time extended confirmed . I would say bundle, but that would remove the ability to remove it from people who don't want it (the watchlist banner it gives you might be the single most annoying design feature on Wikipedia. I have CSS to remove it.)The whole theory behind PCR is that it restores to autoconfirmed users the ability they have always had — to grant edit requests. Theoretically pending changes is a lower form of protection than semi-protection, so PCR is supposed to be granted liberally because it makes no sense to have a lower form of protection have a higher standard of review. I think Mz7 started a discussion about this a while back, but can't remember. Honestly, we should just get rid of pending changes all together; it creates more problems than it solves most of the time, but barring that, we can streamline giving people the right to review them. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- TonyBallioni, autogranting CRASH status is, and has always been, a nonstarter. It's brought up every so often and always gets shot down on the grounds that PCR requires a fair bit of knowledge of what is and is not vandalism - something an autoconfirmed user won't have and something an XCP user doesn't need PCR to help enforce. (Disclosure: I refuse to accept the CRASH userright and refuse to edit or watch pages under CRASHlock.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v a little blue Bori 21:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Less damage than can already be done with autoconfirmed since by definition semi-protection is more sensitive than anything with pending changes. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by "CRASH", but if that simply means the process of reviewing pending changes, then Tony's idea is definitely not a nonstarter. A while back, I did indeed float this idea on the idea lab village pump. While I ultimately didn't start a formal RfC for the proposal, I don't really think the idea was shot down. I am still quite sympathetic to the idea, and I suspect I would probably support a proposal to autogrant it with extended confirmed. PCR is by far the most lightweight right that administrators can grant. Note that it only grants the ability to accept pending changes—anyone can reject pending changes by reverting to the last accepted revision (such a revert would be automatically accepted). Because of this, the amount of disruption caused by misuse is quite low (much lower than rollback, where misuse of the tool can alienate good-faith editors). While PCR does require some common-sense knowledge on what is and is not vandalism, WP:RPC#Acceptable edits expressly states
It is not necessary for you to ensure compliance with the content policies on neutral point of view, verifiability and original research before accepting
. Virtually all editors who are not novices should have the competency to review pending changes, and this is reflected in our established practice of granting PCR to virtually every non-novice editor that requests it at WP:PERM. Mz7 (talk) 07:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- TonyBallioni, autogranting CRASH status is, and has always been, a nonstarter. It's brought up every so often and always gets shot down on the grounds that PCR requires a fair bit of knowledge of what is and is not vandalism - something an autoconfirmed user won't have and something an XCP user doesn't need PCR to help enforce. (Disclosure: I refuse to accept the CRASH userright and refuse to edit or watch pages under CRASHlock.) —Jéské Couriano v^_^v a little blue Bori 21:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Geographic sourcing bias on Wikipedia
Why do some Wikipedia editors believe that popular western sources are the only independent sources deserving of consideration for determining the notability of subjects? In a deletion discussion about Patrick Lancaster, an editor is claiming that the lengthy treatise by Zabrorona on the subject is not journalistic, and other editors support this saying there are no independent sources. The subject is very specific to Ukraine and Zabrorona is a very high-quality independent source from Ukraine, and I tried getting community input on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard as advised by Wikipedia:Reliable sources, but no response so far. If independent sources from the west are the only ones that can be trusted, then millions of articles on notable Tatar musicians, Indian shamans, and Indonesian politicians are likely missing from Wikipedia. IntrepidContributor (talk) 09:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Define "independent" sources and provide examples of such purported sources in Wikipedia articles. 172.254.222.178 (talk) 11:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think "independent" needs more than a dictionary definition. There are many examples of non-western independent sources being used in Wikipedia, like Kompas, a local Indonesian newspaper. The problem is that there seems to be a prevailing view that these sources are not high-quality enough to establish notability on subjects, like in the example above. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Don't mean to sound obtuse, but when it comes to sources, "independent" needs explanation. Is the source "independent" of the various viewpoints on a particular issue? That doesn't mean that it should be thought of as reliable relative to the issue. It may not adhere to any POV, but still have a POV of its own. That would be an "independent" viewpoint, and as unreliable as any other POV. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- If the definition of independent really needs further clarification, then let's make it specific to Zabrorona and Patrick Lancaster. Is there any reason you think Zabrorona shouldn't be considered as a reliable enough source for determining (along with Vice) the notability of Lancaster? Other editors could cite other examples. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- To give a considered answer, one would need to learn about the subject and the reporting on it. Have no time for this now, but in general, there is no such thing as a "reliable source", no person/organization owns that holy grail in toto or in perpetuity. There can be a reliable reference. Reliable references depend on both the wikitext presentation and the choice of sources. There may be widely disseminated and commented upon propaganda from a [biased?] source. That would make the propaganda notable. The wikitext could give an example, citing the [biased?] source, in a neutral manner. But although this is factual, it is misleading. Contrary examples (if any) to the propaganda should also be provided, with their own sources, also in a neutral manner. That may also be factual, but is incomplete. In order for the reader (the uninterested observer) to have the full picture, include verifiable information that one or all sides may be biased. If other sources provide a more truthful accounting of the issue, they should be included too, with some explanation regarding their status. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you didn't have the time to look into the example, perhaps you shouldn't have replied. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- If we are going to share opinions about what other people should or should not do, perhaps you should not attempt to elevate your pet interest to a general issue of supposed site-wide "bias" in a crude attempt to attract eyeballs. You were done the courtesy of responses, anyway. So there it is. 104.247.55.106 (talk) 13:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you didn't have the time to look into the example, perhaps you shouldn't have replied. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- To give a considered answer, one would need to learn about the subject and the reporting on it. Have no time for this now, but in general, there is no such thing as a "reliable source", no person/organization owns that holy grail in toto or in perpetuity. There can be a reliable reference. Reliable references depend on both the wikitext presentation and the choice of sources. There may be widely disseminated and commented upon propaganda from a [biased?] source. That would make the propaganda notable. The wikitext could give an example, citing the [biased?] source, in a neutral manner. But although this is factual, it is misleading. Contrary examples (if any) to the propaganda should also be provided, with their own sources, also in a neutral manner. That may also be factual, but is incomplete. In order for the reader (the uninterested observer) to have the full picture, include verifiable information that one or all sides may be biased. If other sources provide a more truthful accounting of the issue, they should be included too, with some explanation regarding their status. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- If the definition of independent really needs further clarification, then let's make it specific to Zabrorona and Patrick Lancaster. Is there any reason you think Zabrorona shouldn't be considered as a reliable enough source for determining (along with Vice) the notability of Lancaster? Other editors could cite other examples. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Don't mean to sound obtuse, but when it comes to sources, "independent" needs explanation. Is the source "independent" of the various viewpoints on a particular issue? That doesn't mean that it should be thought of as reliable relative to the issue. It may not adhere to any POV, but still have a POV of its own. That would be an "independent" viewpoint, and as unreliable as any other POV. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think "independent" needs more than a dictionary definition. There are many examples of non-western independent sources being used in Wikipedia, like Kompas, a local Indonesian newspaper. The problem is that there seems to be a prevailing view that these sources are not high-quality enough to establish notability on subjects, like in the example above. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- What is the policy that you are suggesting needs changing/discussing? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:07, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Having read WP:GNG once and now twice, I don't think it needs any changes. I guess the problem is just that one (and now two) editors believe the Zabrorona article is not "Independent of the subject," claiming it is an advertorial when it is clearly not. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:31, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- It is a very tricky problem, and I'm not sure if there is any easy solution. Because Wikipedia is fundamentally a western web site (for both better and for worse), thus it is near on impossible to get rid of that inherent bias which is built into Wikipedia's DNA and instead have a truly 100% NPOV. As anything which differs slightly from the western "consensus" will easily be discarded with accusations of "pro-Arab" / "pro-Russia" / "pro-China" / etc as most western editors lack the flexibility of mindset to see from all the other perspectives so as to arrive at where the neutral perspective should fall upon. If someone can only see from a western perspective they will of course quite naturally perceive the "middle position" (i.e. their "neutral point of view") to fall right in the middle of the western viewpoints, and in the process totally ignore all other viewpoints. Mathmo Talk 16:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a pretty thick stack of assumptions, opinions, and generalizations for such a short paragraph. 68.132.154.35 (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps if Arab, Russian and China had more Freedom of the press the we would have more reliable sources from those countries. My issue is with second "tier" reliable sources from lower "caste" countries that are being ruled out for establishing notability of subjects on English Wikipedia. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:15, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- " then millions of articles on notable Tatar musicians, Indian shamans, and Indonesian politicians are likely missing from Wikipedia"
- You are absolutely right. Mathmo Talk 17:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yup. Just watch AfD lately, watch Bangladesh and Sri Lankan articles that are undoubtedly notable going down the toilet because there’s not anyone on the English Wikipedia to defend them. I helped save one or two, but don’t have the energy to save them all because it’s not my expertise. It’s not the deletionists expertise either, but if you just want to destroy some articles, they make an easy target.Jacona (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2022 (UT
Another interesting case. Will the new Ukrainian and Kazak sources I just added to Anatoly Levin-Utkin be enough to establish his notability? IntrepidContributor (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Changes to BLP 3RR exemption
FYI: Wikipedia talk:Edit warring#Making WP:3RRNO point 7 more specific. Levivich (talk) 15:08, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
Terminology for undocumented immigrants
The page Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigration) has been archived with no resolution. As-is, it notes that the AP Stylebook suggests the term "illegal immigrant;" however, as of 2013, this is no longer true.[1] Joe Biden's administration in 2021 has moved to the term "unauthorized noncitizen." This has made the issue more clear than it was during the prior discussion. Direct quotes should use the exact wording quoted; for non-quoted text, I suggest it is not appropriate to describe certain human beings as "illegal." John Moser (talk) 05:34, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Which would be a valid point if that was what was being done here. "Illegal immigrant" is an exact parallel to "illegal operator" as used in cases such as this: https://casetext.com/case/us-v-crisp-10 . --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- There was a Village Pump proposal in 2014 thread Guideline for terminology on immigrants.There was a WP:WTW proposal in 2017 thread The term "illegal alien". Both failed. Good. My favourite refutation was that we don't call football players "wide receivers" as a pejorative about their wideness. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm glad you cleared that up. To my non-American ear "wide receiver" sounds like a rather obscene sexual term. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- A lot of Americans make jokes about that, too. Not to mention the "tight ends" on the same team. Even "full back" has possibilities for innuendo. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:59, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- The term exists in Canadian football too. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Fun stuff. If the term "wide receiver" were used while locking up, deporting, and denying rights to wide receivers; if it were used for decades as a racist dogwhistle; if wide receivers themselves had been advocating against the term for many years; if many mainstream style guides had moved away from the term "wide receiver"... but Wikipedians preferred to outright mock it anyway, then yes it would be quite similar. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Context matters. The refutation was of the argument that if an adjective appears before a noun that is derived from a verb, it cannot be referring to the meaning of the verb (if I understood the argument correctly). Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm glad you cleared that up. To my non-American ear "wide receiver" sounds like a rather obscene sexual term. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- It seems like WP:MOS#Vocabulary has this covered pretty well: since the term "illegal immigrant" is (a) contested, (b) not the most common usage in reliable sources, and (c) not generally used by the people to whom it refers, there is unlikely to be any good reason to use it outside of direct quotes. -- Visviva (talk) 16:36, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
The new AP guidance basically said to avoid noun-ifying people as illegal immigrants. Instead to describe it in terms of the illegal action, and presumably only when that aspect is relevant. It doesn't push for "undocumented" and notes that that ambiguous term obscures the point that it is used to "specify"....that the entry or presence is illegal. North8000 (talk) 17:28, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
There are two problems: The first problem is that while you might find broad consensus that a term is preferred (or better avoided) in basically all instances, Wikipedians are extremely reluctant to codify an explicit preference or ban some term. Yes, "illegal immigrant", "illegal alien", and "illegals" are all denigrating language about immigrants for a wide range of social, historical, and legal reasons. That this is the case isn't actually controversial -- the controversy is whether to do anything about it. One of the most common arguments in favor (apart from "I don't like it when people tell me the words I use are offensive") is that they're still used by some official sources. While styleguides and the various sources we consider reliable are increasingly phasing out the language, it's true that they do still appear in various official documents (although less and less -- US immigration enforcement had to stop using it last year, and they were one of the last hold-outs). What's not controversial is that the groups affected by these terms (not limited to people who crossed a border illegally) aren't fans.
The second problem is the lack of an obvious replacement. "Undocumented immigrant", "unauthorized migrant", "person who crossed the border illegally", etc. -- people have different preferences, and there are legitimate criticisms that e.g. "undocumented" is imprecise. Without an obvious replacement, it's again hard to codify. I'd support a proposal to say that Wikipedia doesn't have a preferred formulation but that the three I listed above are discouraged, and would be happy to furnish a pile of sources which explain it (won't get too far into it here). Ultimately, there are a lot of reasons not to use the term, and not a lot of great reasons to use it. Who knows, maybe enough people will be on board, but I'm pessimistic. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- That sounds sensible. Getting broad agreement for that formulation may, as you indicate, be difficult. - Donald Albury 22:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, a formulation would be tricky, but Rhodedendrites proposal looks good. Doug Weller talk 07:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- If the proposal is to discourage "illegal immigrant", it doesn't look good to me. Wikipedia articles Illegal immigration, Illegal immigration to the United States Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States Illegal immigration to Canada etc. exist and there's no proposed alternative. The word "undocumented" appears for Wikipedia articles too (I don't know of a proposal to discourage it); however, although "illegal immigrant" seems like it may be in decline when I look at Google Ngrams, it still beats "undocumented migrant" by that measure. Certainly I don't agree with Rhododendrites that it's "denigrating language about immigrants", it very specifically is language about illegal immigrants, that's not merely a hint, it's shouting for all the world to see that if there's an objection it's about the illegality. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Turning the smoothing off on Ngrams shows a more accurate picture: [1]. They're off by less than 0.000001%, a virtual tie, and if they were nearly equal in 2019, they probably already crossed by 2022, given the very strong trendline over the past two decades. The last illegal immigration RM appears to have been seven years ago. I wonder if the result would be different today. Levivich (talk) 15:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Should we use Ngrams? Apologies for copying this text by User:Wee Curry Monster
- A) Ngram being used to defend the position. When it comes to capitalisation Ngram are not an effective or reliable means of establishing usage in the literature. [2],[3], [4] Not only are they ineffective but can be easily manipulated. You see if you use my Ngram [5] it shows Copper Head Culture as the predominant term.
- B) The only reliable means of establishing usage is a literature review.
- Doug Weller talk 15:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what capitalization has to do with what we're talking about here, but those Ngram examples are being manipulated by changing the smoothing setting: they are set at 10, 40, or 50, all of which are extremely high values; the best value is 0 (if you want recent trends); the default is 3 (good for long term trends). Set the smoothing to 0 and all those charts show the same thing. It's true that Ngrams aren't the be-all and end-all, and they can be manipulated, but they're accurate for what they show. Levivich (talk) 16:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would never suggest you don't use Ngram without smoothing the data, small values if you want to see short term trends, larger values if you want to see long term trends. 10 isn't high for looking at long term trends say 50-100 years. 1 or 0 is rather too small in general. 3 is rather too small for long term trends but I would recommend it if you wanted to look say over a decade. It is explained much better here. I'm not saying you shouldn't use Ngram for trends in language usage but trying to argue for trends in say capitalisation its very vulnerable to the point of being useless. If you wanted to compare one phrase against another it can be very nuanced. I would say whilst they can be helpful in guiding research, they can for example be used to search for sources in a particular timeframe, I don't think they are a substitute for reviewing sources to find trends in the literature. WCMemail 16:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Looking at the particular topic posed, you can observe some trends. In American English, [6] undocumented immigrant has recently overtaken illegal immigrant. In British English, [7] the reverse is true there is poor take up of the use of the term. Combining the two [8] illegal immigrant remains the predominant term. I don't think its as simple as recommending terms not to use, since there are significant variations per WP:ENGVAR. Imposing a term common in one English language variation that is uncommon in another is a recipe for conflict. WCMemail 16:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what capitalization has to do with what we're talking about here, but those Ngram examples are being manipulated by changing the smoothing setting: they are set at 10, 40, or 50, all of which are extremely high values; the best value is 0 (if you want recent trends); the default is 3 (good for long term trends). Set the smoothing to 0 and all those charts show the same thing. It's true that Ngrams aren't the be-all and end-all, and they can be manipulated, but they're accurate for what they show. Levivich (talk) 16:08, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- Should we use Ngrams? Apologies for copying this text by User:Wee Curry Monster
- Turning the smoothing off on Ngrams shows a more accurate picture: [1]. They're off by less than 0.000001%, a virtual tie, and if they were nearly equal in 2019, they probably already crossed by 2022, given the very strong trendline over the past two decades. The last illegal immigration RM appears to have been seven years ago. I wonder if the result would be different today. Levivich (talk) 15:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
References
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MOS section on intro material for lists
I made a series of edits [9] which I intended to better explain established practice for the intro section on lists. No changes to actual practice were intended. I'd appreciate some other eyeballs checking it over, to make it better (or catch my goofs). Thanks. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Similarly, I tried to add existing practice in a new subsection at WP:Stand-alone lists#Documenting selection criteria. Again, no changes in practice were intended. Please review. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)