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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed); or
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
1. |
Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |reason= }} ~~~~ Copy this template skeleton for files: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |article= |reason= }} ~~~~ |
2. |
and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
3. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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4. |
For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
5. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
- Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted |
*'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~ |
*'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~ |
*'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~ |
*'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~ |
*'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~ |
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented. If the administrator finds that there is no consensus in the deletion review, then in most cases this has the same effect as endorsing the decision being appealed. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; admins may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
If a speedy deletion is appealed, the closer should treat a lack of consensus as a direction to overturn the deletion, since it indicates that the deletion was not uncontroversial (which is a requirement of almost all criteria for speedy deletion). Any editor may then nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum. But such nomination is in no way required, if no editor sees reason to nominate.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
- Speedy closes
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
Active discussions
12 July 2022
Marie Rose Abad
- Marie Rose Abad (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Last month, I created this redirect, among similar others. Some people took issue with it, some took it with the target itself, and some took it with how I created them, so on 27 Jun Graeme deleted them. I couldn't find the rationale for the deletion under WP:RFD#DELETE, and found at least one reason for keeping it—(3) They aid searches on certain terms
—not to mention that, if I created them, naturally I'm (5) Someone
who finds them useful.
I would thus like to better understand why these redirects, and other similar ones, need to be deleted on their own merit, now that the consensus for keeping the target has been established. I understand one of the issues some people took with the redirects themselves was that the people they named are not notable, but WP:N explicitly states that:
when notable topics are not given standalone pages, redirection pages and disambiguation can be used to direct readers searching for such topics to the appropriate articles and sections within them (see also Wikipedia:Redirects are cheap).
— Guarapiranga ☎ 02:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- The deletion happened as a result of the WP:AN/I discussion. The problem was the sheer scale of creation by an unapproved automated process of over 1000 redirects. It was the R part of WP:BRD. I think Guarapiranga needs to have a reason for creating each individual redirect so that thought is given to each one. Guarapiranga has also failed to listen to the community discussion on WP:AN/I where no one supported creation of redirects for the name of very person that died in the 9/11 attacks. Sure if someone is notable, create an article on the person, or if there is some real information on the target, then make a redirect. I will see if I can find the ANI discussion in the archive. Out of the deleted set I have already restored one: Christine Egan as it was converted to an article which at least has a claim of importance.
- Discussion here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1102#WP:MEATBOT and Guarapiranga Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, Graeme; I had linked the discussion at AN/I in my intro (as well as that at the AfD, and at the redirects' target talk page). I did
listen to the community discussion on WP:AN/I
, and accepted your bulk deletion of the redirects; as I said, I'd just like tobetter understand why these redirects, and other similar ones, need to be deleted on their own merit
. It's not true, however, thatno one supported creation of redirects for the name of
every person that died in the 9/11 attacks
:- BilledMammal said
current policy tolerates these redirects
; - While some editors argued the redirects were a problem bc they taxed the NPP backlog, Hey man im josh, who reviewed them, said he didn't whink
we should take the NPP backlog into consideration when deciding whether articles or redirects are valid or appropriate to create
; - While some expressed
fear that any living person who shares a name with any of those victims will instantly become known for sharing a name with a victim, if these redirects hit google
, HumanxAnthro argued thathow accurately non-notable individuals are presented on Google searches is
Google's problem, not Wikipedia's
; - Regarding
the sheer scale of creation by an unapproved automated process of over 1000 redirects
, Qwerfjkl said mass creating redirects shouldn't be considered a problem, as he's also done it in the past.
- BilledMammal said
- Finally, the core of that discussion at AN/I was WP:MEATBOT, as indicated by the incident heading, not the redirects in their own right (even the editor who reported the incident said that
the merits of the redirects at
thatpoint
werethe least of
herconcern
). That's why I raised the question here, so we can discuss the redirects in their own right, whether they can be created, even if by non-automated means, and, again, tobetter understand why
theyneed to be deleted on their own merit
, if that's the case. — Guarapiranga ☎ 07:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)- I would note that my full comment was
On one hand, this is clearly a WP:MEATBOT and WP:FAIT issue. On the other hand, my experience at AfD and RfD regarding non-notable early Olympians suggests that current policy tolerates these redirects, to the point of sometimes creating disambiguation pages when there are multiple articles mentioning different non-notable individuals by the same name.
- I would also note that I wasn't entirely correct; such disambiguation pages are forbidden by WP:NOTDIRECTORY.
- Moving forward, I would suggest that if you wish to recreate these redirects you seek consensus to do so by submitting a bot approval request. Before doing so, I would also suggest you work out which redirects would be inappropriate due to multiple non-notable people with the same name being mentioned in Wikipedia, and excluding them from your creation processes.
- This doesn't guarantee that you will get consensus for their creation, but it does make it possible. BilledMammal (talk)
I would suggest that if you wish to recreate these redirects you seek consensus to do so by submitting a bot approval request.
I'd first like to understand what exactly is the policy in this regard, independently of them being created semi-automatically or not (and whether WP:POLICY requires that manually created redirects to non-notable people in lists and articles—e.g. Mary McKinney, Grace Nelsen Jones, Mary Margaret Smith, Margaret Skeete, etc—also be deleted).Before doing so, I would also suggest you work out which redirects would be inappropriate due to multiple non-notable people with the same name being mentioned in Wikipedia, and excluding them from your creation processes.
The notable people on that list don't need redirects; by definition, they have articles of their own (or should have). The issue is precisely with the redirects to non-notable people names in the article. Why do you say that would beinappropriate
? Doesn't WP:N establish thatwhen notable topics are not given standalone pages, redirection pages and disambiguation can be used to direct readers searching for such topics to the appropriate articles and sections within them
? — Guarapiranga ☎ 08:39, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would note that my full comment was
Out of the deleted set I have already restored one: Christine Egan as it was converted to an article which at least has a claim of importance.
There we are; that was precisely one of my aims: for the redirect pages to work as placeholders, and be progressively replaced by articles as WP acknowledges people's notability. — Guarapiranga ☎ 08:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, Graeme; I had linked the discussion at AN/I in my intro (as well as that at the AfD, and at the redirects' target talk page). I did
- I agree that, given the controversy around this situation, it needs a BRFA or at least some sort of clear consensus, even if it's not explicitly disallowed by policy. Also, re 4. above, mass-creating redirects still needs consensus. See Novem Linguae and Rosguil's comments in the linked discussion. ― Qwerfjkltalk 12:23, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse After reading the ANI (not formally closed), there appeared to be consensus to delete the mass creation of redirects. From a process standpoint, the redirect target, List of victims of the September 11 attacks was created by the nominator on May 28. By June 21 several thousand redirects were created. The creation of the redirects were brought to ANI on June 27. By June 28, all of the redirects were deleted by Graeme Bartlett. On July 12, Guarapiranga brought the redirect up for discussion, where it was closed a couple hours later. --Enos733 (talk) 16:16, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Overturn I'm not sure what I would think on the merits, but there should have been an RfD rather than deleting thousands of pages out of process due to a discussion at a conduct venue. The RfD brought up by Enos733 would have been the right process, but the deletion being reviewed here unduly short-circuited it This, incidentally, is another instance of the "strict CSD regulars like me say that a certain type of deletion is disallowed, admins in other parts of the community carry it out anyway" give-take that I mentioned at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Adding to Non-criteria list section. I was hoping that the list would be deleted and this would become moot, but the AfD was closed as keep in a closure that IMO doesn't reflect the consensus but I couldn't be bothered to bring it to DRV, so here we are .... * Pppery * it has begun... 16:20, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse while ANI definitely isn't a usual venue for deletion discussions, it is occasionally used for bulk deletion in cases where one person creates a lot of problematic pages. I remember a case a few years ago where one user created a few hundred articles with serious original research problems, and it was eventually decided that they should all be deleted instead of expecting editors to AfD them one by one. There is a general expectation that large scale page creations should be discussed somewhere beforehand, something reflected in the bot policy, and I suspect an RfD of several thousand redirects would not have been feasible. Hut 8.5 17:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why would it be any less feasible than, for example, the mass discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 November 10 which totaled to thousands of redirects which seem to have worked just fine? * Pppery * it has begun... 17:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- By my count there are under 900 nominations on that log page, so a lot fewer than the approximately 3,000 9/11 victims, and the nominators didn't actually follow proper procedure since none of the redirects were tagged (at least none of the random sample I picked were). More importantly there were a lot more differences between each of the redirects which led to some being kept. Hut 8.5 17:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why would it be any less feasible than, for example, the mass discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 November 10 which totaled to thousands of redirects which seem to have worked just fine? * Pppery * it has begun... 17:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
11 July 2022
Nuvve
There is more than one review (four in total): here, here, here, and here. There are release sources: here, here, and here. All in all, sufficient sources to restore the article. DareshMohan (talk) 08:28, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- There isn't anything stopping you from recreating the article. If you want the deleted version restored to draft space to serve as a starting point then I'm sure that can be done, but there was hardly anything in it - just an infobox and a cast list. Hut 8.5 19:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Well, there isn't, but the question is that other than the Rediff review, are any of the other sources considered reliable? DareshMohan (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse if this is an appeal of the closure. Otherwise it isn't clear what is being requested. The title isn't salted and the author can always prepare and submit a draft. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
TechEngage
- TechEngage (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The Site passes GNG. The "News & Observer" and "Honolulu Star" articles are multiple examples of significant coverage from independent sources for the site to pass GNG. Jinnahsequaid (talk) 06:27, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse. DRV is not AfD round 2. These sources were considered in the discussion where consensus was that they were not sufficient to demonstrate notability. Thryduulf (talk) 09:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- There are alot more sources that were being missed in the previous review. I think we should consider it again. It includes many major newspapers, including Anderson Independent-Mail, Birmingham Post-Herald, Austin American-Statesman, Santa Maria Times, Eastern Wake News, Ventura County Star, The Miami Herald, The Knoxville News-Sentinel, The Miami News. (And all of them has covered it for multiple years and in multiple times). Further, I added a news clip of 2010 of News & Observer so no one can say it' for only 2-3 years. I don't have the full subscriptions to fetch the whole lists. Hope, you will be satisfied with it @Thryduulf
- For me, it's enough to pass the GNG. Jinnahsequaid (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just rewrite the article as a draft from the ground up based on the supposedly GNG-compliant sources. I do not think a deletion review is needed to get permission to recreate a deleted article; WP:G4 (which states that any copies of AfD-deleted articles can be deleted ASAP without warning) doesn't apply to recreations that don't copy anything from the originally deleted article. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse as the right summary of the AFD. Significant coverage was considered in the AFD. The title has not been salted and the appellant can submit a draft for review with the better sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:27, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Basar (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The person is a notable billionaire businessman Aaeeshaaadil4 (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC) |
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
10 July 2022
Flags of cities of the United States
- Flags of cities of the United States (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This article is actually a redirect to Wikimedia Commons, which means maybe the page has been deleted for over two months ago. Means the gallery of the images of the flags is WP:LISTCRUFT. Heraldrist (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment As you say, this is not a list so WP:LISTCRUFT does not apply. It was not a recreation so WP:G4 did not apply (on either occasion). It is a soft redirect so if you want it deleted you need to refer to Wikipedia:Soft redirect#Deletion which tells you to use Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If you think the list on Commons should be deleted then seek deletion over there which would, I expect, lead to deletion of the soft redirect here. I don't see any of this as beneficial but DRV is not the place for me to venture such opinions. Thincat (talk) 11:46, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse. The XfD could not have been closed as anything other than delete and the G4 speedy deletion was correctly declined both times. A (soft) redirect cannot be "substantially identical" to anything that is not a redirect, and once speedy deletion nomination has been declined or reverted by someone other than the creator then it cannot be speedily deleted (under that criterion or for similar reasons, unless there is some change in objective facts) because deletion is not uncontroversial. If you think the redirect should be deleted, then you should as Thincat says nominate it at RfD (this could go either way). If you think the gallery itself is inappropriate for Commons then nominate it for deletion there - I'm not familiar with their policies on galleries so don't know how likely it is to be supported, but if the target is deleted and there is no alternative target, then the redirect will be eligible for speedy deletion under criterion G8. Thryduulf (talk) 12:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Heraldrist:Um - I am not sure what you are asking for here. Is it: The delete close of the AfD to be overturned? It seems like it accurately reflects the consensus and the delete arguments are reasonable interpretations of the policies they cite. Paul 012's removal of your and Praxidicae's G4 tags be reversed? As far as I know independent editors are not banned from removing speedy deletion tags. The tags wouldn't be correct anyhow - G4 only applies to "substantially identical" pages (h/t Thryduulf) and a soft redirect to the place where galleries are allowed (commons:Commons:Galleries) is not quite equivalent to hosting a gallery on-wiki. Alexphangia's soft redirecting to Commons being reversed? I think you'd need to do this at WP:RFD, not here - the soft redirect isn't a deletion nor was it done pursuant to a discussion, so WP:DRVPURPOSE wouldn't apply here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Question - What is being requested here? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse if this is an appeal of the closure, but it doesn't seem to be. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- What is actually being requested here? Stifle (talk) 09:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
8 July 2022
Vladislav Sviblov
- Vladislav Sviblov (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Please consider this removal. This article has already been deleted before and I disputed the deletion. It was indicated that additional sources should be added to the article and work on the text in the draft should be done. I created an article in the draft, improved it, added additional sources, and the reviewer moved the article to the main space. The same participant put it up for deletion again. Only one participant spoke and did not take into account my arguments and my adherence to consensus.
Here is the link for first deletion [3]
And the second [4]
Валерий Пасько (talk) 09:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse as a proper close, again. Evidently the additional sources and additional text were not sufficient to establish notability. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Allow Submission of Draft - The title was not salted, although one participant in the AFD recommended that it be salted, so a reviewer can accept the draft if the body of the article as resubmitted speaks for itself. It is normally not enough just to add sources. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse. Properly deleted at two AfDs. The article was reference bombed and lacked independent secondary sources. DO NOT encourage submission of draft, but respect the AfD decisions, until at least six months after the second AfD. Do not encourage “additional sources”, further reference bombings makes it worse, instead require less and better sources. Do not entertain any protest that does not follow the advice at WP:THREE, and also demand that the native language Wikipedia article (Russian) exists and is linked. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Russian language article exists (ru:Свиблов, Владислав Владимирович) Валерий Пасько (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Every project has their own guidelines. English's are among the most stringent, notability wise. Star Mississippi 18:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Russian language article exists (ru:Свиблов, Владислав Владимирович) Валерий Пасько (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse incubate in draft does not mean immediately resubmit when the underlying issues haven't been addressed. Is there a reason you're so focused on this article? Courtesy @Liz: as closer of last AfD. Star Mississippi 18:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
7 July 2022
Megan Huntsman
- Megan Huntsman (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
I discussed concerns about the close at the closer's Talk page but continue to have concerns that consensus was interpreted incorrectly and the result should be overturned to delete, or in the alternative, that a relist would be appropriate due to the circumstances of the discussion and a possible procedural error, as discussed with the closer. Beccaynr (talk) 20:36, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. I definitely don't think a move was the right outcome there, given that nobody suggested that in the discussion. There was voluminous disagreement about whether she met BLP1E or not but I don't think it came to a consensus. Ritchie333 relisting the discussion suggests they were of that opinion too, so the finding of consensus by the closer after no further discussion is surprising. I'm leaning towards opining this should be overturned to no consensus (without prejudice to RM) but I'm going to think a bit more before bolding anything. Thryduulf (talk) 01:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I do not think an overturn to no consensus would be right, given the complete lack of policy based justification from the keep !voters. I'd much prefer a relisting. ––FormalDude talk 04:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. Thanks Thryduulf. Although a move was not explicitly mentioned, I felt (as the closing admin) that it was the logical implication of a discussion which, in my mind, seemed to conclude that the individual does not meet notability but that the event might. I feel that the discussion was bogged down by the fact that some were discussing BLP1E, some EVENT and some a bit of both. My reading of the discussion, is that this will either end with an event article and a individual redirect, or a deletion (for which there is not yet consensus). The most efficient way forward would be, in my opinion, for there to be a discussion on the event, after the event article has some slight reworking so that it is clearly about the event (as discussed with Beccaynr on my talk page [5]). The problem is that if it is relisted as the article about the individual, then we are back to the original issues with the discussion. I don't think that a no consensus close would best serve resolving the issue because, again, I think that the consensus will eventually move to "event article + individual redirect" or "delete" and we should find the most efficient way to facilitate that. TigerShark (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just to add to this. I feel that the article as it currently stands is really about the murders than the perpetrator anyway. Reword the opening sentence, remove the infobox and change the "early life" title to "the perpetrator" and you effectively have an article about the event (which arguably should be listed, as previously discussed). I see no point in deleting the article and then inviting it to be recreated (with a redirect) as has been suggested as an alternative, because that puts the article exactly where is it now (or would be with those minor changes). TigerShark (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn - I !voted delete in the AfD. From my view, arguments that contradict policy, are based on unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than fact and/or are logically fallacious should be discounted. This includes the use of original research to support keeping this article, e.g. asserting it is "highly unusual" without RS support and with RS contradicting this conclusion. Even as an event article, BLP issues related to sensationalist coverage still exist and are also contrary to policy. Per WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS,
These policies are not negotiable, and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus.
Beccaynr (talk) 01:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC) - Comment. It seems like there was (a) a consensus that an article on the individual was not appropriate and (b) no consensus regarding whether or not an article on the event (i.e. the murders) were notable. It's not the best phrased close, but I'm not exactly sure what this practically means for whether to move the page (there is a notable event and not a notable person) or to delete the page (there is no notable topic here, article title be damned). — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with that analysis, and I think it lends to a delete closure without prejudice to someone creating an event article. The article as it stands is about the individual and not the event. ––FormalDude talk 07:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved). There was very clearly no consensus to delete here. I am neutral on the move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:00, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- From my view, your !vote should have been discounted because during the discussion, you did not address the second prong of WP:N, i.e. whether the subject should be excluded per WP:NOTNEWS, also used personal opinion/WP:OR to support keeping the article, as well as a logically fallicious argument related to WP:BLP1E, and did not address the WP:BLP issues. Asserting WP:GNG based on sensationalist news churnalism and academic WP:RS with only superficial coverage also seems to be an unsubstantiated argument. Beccaynr (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe you should review WP:ONLYESSAY:
Wikipedia is not a system of laws. Deletion processes are discussions, not votes, and we encourage people to put forward their opinions.
Something many deletionist editors in recent years seem to have forgotten in their zeal to delete, delete, delete. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:04, 8 July 2022 (UTC)- The link to discussions, not votes leads to the Polling is not a substitute for discussion essay, which includes,
If Wikipedia were to resolve issues through voting on them, editors would be tempted to also use voting with respect to article content. This might undermine Wikipedia policies on verifiability, notability, and the neutral point of view.
From my view, opinions such as WP:ILIKEIT, unsupported assertions of significance and WP:VAGUEWAVES at policy should be discounted, especially when an article is based on sensationalist coverage of living people and there is extensive discussion of sources and P&Gs by delete !voters. Beccaynr (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- The link to discussions, not votes leads to the Polling is not a substitute for discussion essay, which includes,
- Maybe you should review WP:ONLYESSAY:
- From my view, your !vote should have been discounted because during the discussion, you did not address the second prong of WP:N, i.e. whether the subject should be excluded per WP:NOTNEWS, also used personal opinion/WP:OR to support keeping the article, as well as a logically fallicious argument related to WP:BLP1E, and did not address the WP:BLP issues. Asserting WP:GNG based on sensationalist news churnalism and academic WP:RS with only superficial coverage also seems to be an unsubstantiated argument. Beccaynr (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to “no consensus”. There was no consensus to keep or delete the article. There were not BLP violation noted (BLP1E is not a “BLP violation” but a lesser issue), so the no consensus defaults to keep. There was no consensus for the move, that was a Supervote. Feel free to submit a rename proposal through WP:RM, but I note an abundance of sources name the person, and the location is incidental, so the merits for the move are dubious. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- My references to BLP issues in the AfD includes the sensationalist churnalism; the BLP1E aspect is a separate issue that keep !voters do not appear to have addressed with P&Gs or support from RS. Beccaynr (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to "no consensus". I was involved. I argued to keep. I was surprised by the result. I noted that slightly more voters wanted to keep (but also note some arguments were brief), but that the delete advocates also provided credible arguments. I was curious to see how this one was closed, to see what people made of my counter argument to BLP1E delete argument (but that wasn't mentioned by the closer) and I assumed it was heading towards no consensus. The "move" result did surprise me, because we were making polarised arguments and while it is never nice to fail to reach reach consensus, that appears to be the only outcome here. I don't think the current move is an improvement to the encyclopedia. I would find re-opening for more time a good outcome too, as I think we needed more input, rather than the primary contributors just repeating our polarised opinions. Peace. (P.S. I hope this is okay to comment here, I'm not an admin). CT55555 (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Deletion Review is open to anyone's well-reasoned opinion. Well I guess technically it's open to any opinions, but you know what I mean. Star Mississippi 13:36, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus. Following on from my comment above, and having read the comments from others, I'm now firmly of the opinion that no consensus was the correct outcome for that discussion. Move is a valid opinion, but not one that was discussed at all by the participants so the closer should have expressed that as a !vote. There wasn't consensus that the article should be about the event rather than the person, as otherwise there wouldn't have been strong arguments in favour of keeping, and most arguments made did not express an opinion one way or another. It would be an appropriate question to raise at an RM, but given comments here I don't think it would find favour. I think a new discussion would be preferable to reopening the closed one, so that arguments for and against BLP1E being met can be made without the bludgeoning that was a large part of this one. (Beccaynr you are getting dangerously close to that here). Thryduulf (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse - Move is consistent with the original recommendation ('move or improve') of CT55555, which was only changed to keep following a poor quality argument by FormalDude, and where CT55555 continued to maintain a preference for some ATD outcome over keep. Closing with an ATD outcome that has been proposed and not refuted in the course of the AfD is defensible when neither 'keep' nor 'delete' are good outcomes. While 'no consensus' would also have been a reasonable close, I see no positive case for overturning the close that does not involve relitigating the AfD. — Charles Stewart (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn to either "no consensus" or "keep" Solid policy-based arguments were made on all sides. There was little to no discussion regarding a move so I believe restoring its original title is most appropriate. Frank Anchor 12:20, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Spot News 18
- Spot News 18 (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
I want to write something about this topic, allow me to write on it. Here is my write-up about this topic which I want to publish. Please check it and everything is good, then only allow me to proceed ahead if any changes or suggestions are welcomed.
References
Spot News 18 is a digital news publishing website and media production company.[1] It was founded on 30 June 2019, by Ashish Kumar Mishra who also serve as the CEO. The company is headquartered in Mumbai, India.[2]
Spot News 18 was one of the first digital publishers in India to offer 24-hour news coverage, and it was also one of the first all-news digital publishers at the time it was launched in 2019.[3] 103.204.161.102 (talk) 13:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse close and this would be a G4. AfD was a sock mess, so this should only be created by an established editor and/or go through Afc. Courtesy @Liz: as closer. Star Mississippi 13:21, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spot News 18
- Improve existing content before attempting to write new articles. Writing new articles before gaining experience improving content is too hard.
- WP:Register before you start to attempt new articles. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse - I don't think that there is such a thing as a Speedy Endorse, but if there were, this should be done. When the review of a topic has been polluted by sockpuppetry, an unregistered editor should not be appealing the closure of an AFD. There is no error by the closer, but there is an error in this DRV request. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
6 July 2022
Operation Balboa
- Operation Balboa (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
The article was previously nominated for a PROD and no policies were cited to support a redirect. The AfD ended with two votes after being relisted twice: one in favor of deletion and another in favor of a redirect. As the nominator of the AfD, I disagree with a redirect and believe the deletion should proceed. NoonIcarus (talk) 12:05, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse own close and slightly confused. NoonIcarus, in your own nom you essentially indicated a redirect
Any noteworthy content is already covered in the United States–Venezuela relations#United States interference allegations section.
There was no argument made against a redirect and it's a valid AtD. Star Mississippi 14:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC) - Endorse - When the subject is mentioned at the proposed redirect target, a redirect is usually a good alternative to deletion. Also, the PROD that the appellant mentions was fourteen years ago, and hardly has any bearing on the current dispute. Redirect is the right conclusion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Weak relist I think the close here wasn't a correct assessment of the deletion discussion so far – it was effectively being used as a supervote. On the other hand, I think that if the closer had posted a "redirect" opinion and left the AfD for someone else to close, it would probably have ended up being closed as "redirect" anyway after more opinions came in. So my view here is "technically we should relist this, in case there are stronger arguments against redirecting that were cut off by the supervote, but I suspect that doing so would in practice be a waste of AfD voters' time". Another possibility may be to relist at RfD, because the dispute here is mostly not about whether the article content should be kept, but about whether the redirect should be kept. --ais523 21:47, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- My close was eight days after the last input, so I don't think I cut off any forthcoming !votes. I don't think there's a particular interest in the subject, hence two relists and two !votes, but no objection to a relist if consensus thinks it would be helpful. Personally think your RfD idea would lead to more clear resolution for the reasons you said. Star Mississippi 21:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse- There doesn't seem to be any good reason for this title not to redirect to an article where it is mentioned. Nor, as pointed out in the AfD, would there be a problem with retaining the article history underneath the redirect. Reyk YO! 00:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse Reyk's spot on here. Jclemens (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse, reasonable outcome for me. Stifle (talk) 09:46, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse (redirect). WP:ATD-R is Policy. Someone not seeing the need for a redirect is an extremely weak argument. Many good things are not strictly needed. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment In sight of the responses offered, I would like to withdraw my review request, if possible. I have read several useful explanations; I'm grateful of the participants who have offered them. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Recent discussions
1 July 2022
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Both keep votes used rationale that is not applicable anymore (WP:NFOOTBALL). Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Even ignoring that XFD isn't a "vote", there are 3 well reasoned deletes (4 if you include my nomination) and a single keep that was discussed endlessly and was incorrect. I fail to see how this is a possible outcome given the discussion there. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
30 June 2022
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
To be clear, I'm not opening this DRV just because I disagree with the outcome, but because the closer's rationale was wanting. I have raised this issue on their talk page, but they have not responded. By raw vote count, there are 3 deletes (including nom), 1 merge, and 5 keeps, but more importantly, none of the keep rationales made policy- or guideline-based arguments. I'd like at least a consensus here that the closer's judgment was correct. Ovinus (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
29 June 2022
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I would like it restored so I can make the appropriate corrections (which I was making but it was deleted before I could post them) since it was deleted for a WP:G11 not for copyright infringement or anything else I can change the sentences and make it encyclopedic and objective Jdtw2022 (talk) 10:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
28 June 2022
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This AFD was closed as delete. However, I do not think the closer recognized that a policy based argument made by Reading Beans (who quoted NPOL directly using green text and connected how the subject passed it) had shifted the final comments all to keep. This was further supported by evidence from Soman. This should be overturned and re-listed to allow further discussion or be overturned as no consensus. 4meter4 (talk) 18:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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- ^ "'Spot News 18' Becomes The Most Preferred Website For Credible News Among Readers | 🇮🇳 LatestLY". LatestLY. 2022-02-10. Retrieved 2022-03-20.
- ^ "Spot News 18: Disseminating news that brings authenticity to the table". www.mid-day.com. 2022-03-31. Retrieved 2022-04-04.
- ^ "Spot News 18 Creating New Milestones With Authentic And Credible News". OutlookIndia. 2022-03-11. Retrieved 2022-03-20.