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RfC: Business Insider news reporting
Insider won the 2022 Pulitzer Prize for Illustrated Reporting and Commentary for its reporting on the story of an woman's escape from an internment camp (see: Uyghur genocide); the story was filed under its news section. Currently, WP:RSP describes Insider — with the exception of its culture section, which is considered RS — as being unclear in terms of reliability (option 2).
Is Insider's news (section) coverage, at least since December 2021 (when the Pulitzer winning story published), considered generally reliable for factual reporting?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated
-- TheSandDoctor Talk 00:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Survey (BI)
Bad RfC and procedural close. WP:RFCNEUTRAL commands that the prompt should be— Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 00:12, 2 July 2022 (UTC) (struck as moot 00:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC))neutrally worded
, but this prompt expresses a specific call-to-action (Based on this Pulitzer development, I believe that we should reconsider its news coverage's classification
). If you believe that the reporting should be reconsidered, then that should only appear in a comment or !vote, not in the RfC prompt.- @Mhawk10: Good catch. I didn't intend that. I have moved it to the discussion section. Does that address the concern? TheSandDoctor Talk 00:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @TheSandDoctor: Yes, that addresses my concern. As such, I've struck my !vote above as moot. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Mhawk10: I am glad that I was able to address that and correct it soon enough. Thank you for raising that and for striking now that it is resolved. TheSandDoctor Talk 00:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @TheSandDoctor: Yes, that addresses my concern. As such, I've struck my !vote above as moot. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Mhawk10: Good catch. I didn't intend that. I have moved it to the discussion section. Does that address the concern? TheSandDoctor Talk 00:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2: Additional considerations apply. That Pulitzer-winning piece is an excellent piece and drives home a woman's story about the abuses she endured in such a direct and powerful way that can only be conveyed in that illustrated medium. And by driving home the sheer scope of the inhumanity in that region through the one woman's lens there is little doubt that Insider deserves that prize. But there just far too many issues with Insider for me to consider it generally reliable for news over its entire lifetime.
- Reading through the previous RfC, almost nobody there considered Insider to be WP:GREL at that time. There may have been substantial improvements in the editorial control and fact-checking processes at BI in the intermittent two years (perhaps that culminated with the sort of detailed reporting necessary for a Pulitzer), but winning a Pulitzer in 2022 isn't good evidence that BI was reliable in 2013 (or really early in its history, when it was basically a collection of self-published blogs).
- The issues present at the time the source was evaluated in 2020 are still real issues that were present through much of the source's history (and may still be present today). Their editorial staffing decisions before acquisition by Axel Springer were... questionable. Prior to its acquisition by Axel Springer, the publication lacked editorial independence from advertisers, accepted (disclosed) quid-pro-quo payments from sources and article subjects, and repeatedly published false stories without doing basic fact-checking. And, while editorial staff kinda sorta purged themselves in 2016 shortly after they got acquired by Axel Springer, the mass exodus of staff didn't actually lead to swiftly improved editorial quality.
- I don't mind Axel Springer as an owner; it does publish Bild, but it also publishes Die Welt and Politico (although the acquisition of Politico is recent). Media companies often hold a variety of different publications, the quality of which can vary significantly (for example, News Corporation concurrently owned The Times of London, The Wall Street Journal, Fox News, News of the World, and The Sun). But the longstanding issues with the reliability of the website didn't go away overnight; in 2016 an analysis in Columbia Journalism Review called it the
poster child
for churnalism and that it often published clickbait that turned out to be false. The non-disparagement clauses in its contracts are... not great for journalistic accountability.
- In short, even though Business Insider was acquired by Axel Springer in 2015, and there very well may have been an improvement in its more recent quality of coverage, I really can't point to 2016 as the date where journalistic practices improved; I'm not really able to set a firm date where I can say that these chronic issues with Business Insider came to a halt. Feel free to propose one and make an argument for it, but I'm just not sure I can support a time-based split on reliability without a good reason. The only reason I'm WP:MREL here as opposed to WP:GUNREL is (1) a Pulitzer means something and (2) I expect it to be fine for ordinary sorts of business reporting. But I can't in good faith look past all of the publication's issues and say it's been WP:GREL since it started. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I don't think that being run by a convicted felon is per se disqualifying (the New Jersey Globe is run by David Wildstein but is well-regarded even by its competitors and by people who are not sympathetic to Wildstein). But that the guy was chosen to lead a business publication after being more or less legally barred from the securities industry by the SEC for alleged fraud, combined with the publication's lack of editorial independence from advertisers, is a bit of a red flag regarding pre-Axel Springer BI. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Mhawk10: The question was "Is Insider's news (section) coverage, at least since December 2021 (when the Pulitzer winning story published), considered generally reliable for factual reporting" (emphasis added). This is also about the section, not the the publication as a whole. This would seemingly address all of the points that you raised? The question wasn't really about whether it was reliable for all of its history, but the Pulitzer is a very good sign that its recent (news) coverage has probably vastly improved and is more reliable, no? Publications can change over time (see WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS). TheSandDoctor Talk 01:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @TheSandDoctor: I need to read more carefully before writing. That being said, there is still recognition that Business Insider is nowhere near the same journalistic league as Politico, and the continued use of traffic quotas leads to stories being a bit more clickbaity than news-y. Pulitzer or not, I'm not really confident that BI has flushed this stuff out yet, and I don't think that one excellent piece is enough to make the whole operation WP:GREL in light of its longstanding problems that seem to still to have been recognized as recently as this year. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Mhawk10: The problem is that the term "clickbait" is extremely subjective and arguably can be found at the NYT or elsewhere easily. Have you run into serious clickbait or (verifiably) false stories in their news section coverage in recent history? The concerns I have seen in past RfCs don't involve this section, were corrected as you'd expect from a site with editorial control, or are often years old (publications can change over time, see WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS); we have also proven previously with other publications (and even Insider) that sections can be individually assessed.
- As an interesting aside, I just realized and double-checked (CTRL + F searched through the winners of years) and Politico and Insider are now tied in Pulitzer wins at once a piece. TheSandDoctor Talk 03:35, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was just reviewing the last RfC and wanted to add that Pyrrho the Skipper addressed this well previously, as did Bilorv's supplement. "We should stay neutral regarding the issue of "clickbait", as it's subjective and not all that helpful in determining fact-checking standards. The New York Times publishes headlines that could be considered clickbait. And I see that coming up frequently as a bit of an emotional, knee-jerk reason to discredit this publication." and the supplement (by Bilorv) "I'd add to this that headlines are not reliable, the body of articles is what we're talking about, so if "clickbait" is just in the headline then it doesn't matter much (though it would be strange to encounter, say, a publication with exceptional fact checking in its articles but lies in its headlines)." (emphasis in original) TheSandDoctor Talk 03:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- If my only objection were that the headlines are inaccurate and sensationalist, (which BI statistically engages in quite often, I would agree that this is no issue in light of WP:HEADLINE. But the long-standing concern here is not merely that the headlines are at times akin to those published by content farms—it is the churnalism that this news organization’s editorial structure actively has encouraged both before and after acquisition by Axel Springer. That the reputation of the firm remained that way—even in January 2022—cannot be reduced to merely its decision to frequently use sensationalist headlines. It reflects something much more substantial about the quality of its article content, which is ultimately what we care about when evaluating this publication’s reliability for news. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 19:45, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Clickbait reflects a practice of "dramatization" that seems contrary to reliability. Of course, it's only one criteria in the catalog that we use — which is why it has little importance for an outlet like the New York Times but can have a lot of weight for i-promise-this-is-reliable.net. JBchrch talk 17:21, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- I was just reviewing the last RfC and wanted to add that Pyrrho the Skipper addressed this well previously, as did Bilorv's supplement. "We should stay neutral regarding the issue of "clickbait", as it's subjective and not all that helpful in determining fact-checking standards. The New York Times publishes headlines that could be considered clickbait. And I see that coming up frequently as a bit of an emotional, knee-jerk reason to discredit this publication." and the supplement (by Bilorv) "I'd add to this that headlines are not reliable, the body of articles is what we're talking about, so if "clickbait" is just in the headline then it doesn't matter much (though it would be strange to encounter, say, a publication with exceptional fact checking in its articles but lies in its headlines)." (emphasis in original) TheSandDoctor Talk 03:46, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- @TheSandDoctor: I need to read more carefully before writing. That being said, there is still recognition that Business Insider is nowhere near the same journalistic league as Politico, and the continued use of traffic quotas leads to stories being a bit more clickbaity than news-y. Pulitzer or not, I'm not really confident that BI has flushed this stuff out yet, and I don't think that one excellent piece is enough to make the whole operation WP:GREL in light of its longstanding problems that seem to still to have been recognized as recently as this year. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Mhawk10: The question was "Is Insider's news (section) coverage, at least since December 2021 (when the Pulitzer winning story published), considered generally reliable for factual reporting" (emphasis added). This is also about the section, not the the publication as a whole. This would seemingly address all of the points that you raised? The question wasn't really about whether it was reliable for all of its history, but the Pulitzer is a very good sign that its recent (news) coverage has probably vastly improved and is more reliable, no? Publications can change over time (see WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS). TheSandDoctor Talk 01:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I don't think that being run by a convicted felon is per se disqualifying (the New Jersey Globe is run by David Wildstein but is well-regarded even by its competitors and by people who are not sympathetic to Wildstein). But that the guy was chosen to lead a business publication after being more or less legally barred from the securities industry by the SEC for alleged fraud, combined with the publication's lack of editorial independence from advertisers, is a bit of a red flag regarding pre-Axel Springer BI. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2, as per excellent summary by MHawk10. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1
No numerical vote yet per withinNo point being a jerk, even though I was a jerk before it got all commercialized.: The previous RfC has a great list of BI's failings and questionable practices by Chetsford. However, a few issues with the list: one is the acknowledged difference between pre-2016 practices and now. Another is the bottom CJR review mentions BI only in a paragraph referencing the CNN article directly beneath it. Minor nitpicks on a list of serious shortcomings, sure. There is also an important mitigating factor in these shortcomings: that BI publishes on its stories corrections, retractions, and financial COIs (which is why CJR is making a point about ethics in the latter). I am generally skeptical of "bias/reliability check" sites for news outlets, for both methodology and first principles, but they generally give BI a high rating (The Factual's review details some of the objections raised). And of course headlines should always be disregarded in these analyses for too many reasons. I will likely not vote for any option until the wording on the rating system is changed, but BI should be considered generally acceptable, with each article subject to editor scrutiny (just almost any other source should be). SamuelRiv (talk) 16:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)- @SamuelRiv: Just to clarify, that was the second previous RfC. The actual "previous" one before this was this one where the culture section/coverage was found to be RS. What did you mean by "working on the rating system is changed"? We stop saying "generally reliable"? If so, that appears to be the standard question set asked and the two (reliable/acceptable) would appear rather interchangeable in meaning? Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just clarifying for others which the latest RfC was and wanting to (personally) better understand your comment. TheSandDoctor Talk 03:41, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding the actual previous RfC then, I guess my understanding of journalism is far more limited than I imagined because I had no idea what was going on there. I don't remember the last time I've read a "culture" story and I didn't recognize who half the people in those linked articles were. Apparently the kids all want to watch "my tube" now? I don't see why they can't just watch their own. Regarding the color rating system, I posted a comment on RSP about contradictory criteria and seeming misuse of the term "opinion". And of course the green check mark is portrayed by some users as if the veracity of a source is now intrinsic with the fabric of the universe. So I'm not really comfortable with the system as it stands. "Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting" would accurately summarize my opinion of BI from what I've assessed here, however. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:28, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- @SamuelRiv: Just to clarify, that was the second previous RfC. The actual "previous" one before this was this one where the culture section/coverage was found to be RS. What did you mean by "working on the rating system is changed"? We stop saying "generally reliable"? If so, that appears to be the standard question set asked and the two (reliable/acceptable) would appear rather interchangeable in meaning? Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just clarifying for others which the latest RfC was and wanting to (personally) better understand your comment. TheSandDoctor Talk 03:41, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 - There is some good content on the site, but it still has a lot of attention-grabbing headlines on less well-researched stories or mixed reporting/pov content. There are many more reliable sources for widely covered news and analysis, so case-by-case scrutiny for Insider is not too much of a burden. SPECIFICO talk 16:36, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Options 2 or 3 - Best not to fully trust any news media. GoodDay (talk) 17:05, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is where the phrase "generally reliable" comes in; all outlets make mistakes, what matters is whether they correct them and the frequency of issues. If I understand correctly, by the logic in your comment, we'd deem every RS source to not be RS and call everything unreliable. TheSandDoctor Talk 02:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 Insider would probably get similar treatment here to HuffPost, Politico, etc. if it wasn't "business" Insider. Most of the objections here are old and could also be leveled at all media companies at some point. Insider is allowed to improve their standards over the year just like BuzzFeed (News). And look, they just won a Pulitzer. Editors need to look past their unwarranted icky feelings about this site. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2. Basically a tabloid. Clickbait, informal style, speculation, hype, and this kind of vibe where you're very much aware of the fact that you're not reading something on the level of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. Do headlines such as "We got an exclusive look at the 24-slide LP deck European climate fund Climentum Capital used to close the first batch of its $156 million fund" and "Toast's CEO talks how his company will dominate the $55 billion restaurant-tech space even as its stock is slammed post-IPO by market headwinds" make you trust this outlet unconditionally? Me neither. I am aware that this is a superficial argument that doesn't reach the strength of Mhawk10's analysis but sometimes... you know it when you see it. About that Pulitzer, I will just note that it's in the
Illustrated Reporting and Commentary...For a distinguished portfolio of editorial cartoons or other illustrated work (still, animated, or both) characterized by political insight, editorial effectiveness, or public service value
. I fully appreciate the level of talent and the amount of work needed to achieve something like that but I'm not sure that it's that relevant to assess reliability in the context of Wikipedia. JBchrch talk 17:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)- @JBchrch: I will just note that none of the referenced premium stories are from the news section, which is predominately free reading, and therefore not exactly relevant to the question being asked. Have you seen any particular problems with the news section? The question here isn't evaluating the whole publication; this is asking specifically about their news section coverage. The average headline and story content for the news section seems rather newsy. e.g. "A long-lost letter from Alexander Hamilton about the war with the British has been returned and is now on display in Boston", "Highland Park shooting suspect charged with 7 counts of first-degree murder with 'dozens more' to be pursued, state attorney says", "China refutes NASA chief's claim that the country is looking to take over the moon", "The Highland Park shooting suspect confessed to carrying out the massacre during police interview, prosecutors say" etc. Normal, routine news coverage you would expect of a publication. BuzzFeed and BuzzFeed News, for example, are treated differently and we've already previously established that different Insider sections can be assessed differently (Insider's culture section is considered RS). TheSandDoctor Talk 00:41, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that point, which I had indeed missed. However, I'm not sure it makes a difference. The way I understand how insider.com works is that it publishes individual stories which it categorizes with various tags. So for instance How a 'Minions' meme craze among teens may have boosted the new movie's box office is a "Media" story which can be also found in the "News" section. So, contrary to Buzzfeed and Buzzfeed News, which are two different websites, Insider is one single website, which I think should be assessed as a whole. (Perhaps that makes me a dissenter to Insider Culture RfC.) This is confirmed by the fact that even if you are in the News section of the website, if you click on "Latest", it shows you the latest stores published in all the sections of the website, including I'm a professional baker who tried making Martha Stewart's signature yellow cake. Here are 2 ways I'd improve her recipe., an article in the Food section. JBchrch talk 17:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- @JBchrch: WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS demonstrates that while Rolling Stone is a single website, its sections can be assessed independently as well; as such, this isn't an unprecedented question. "Latest" is indeed the feed of all latest articles in all sections by the looks of it, but that is also irrelevant to this RfC at hand as already described. I was also mostly referring to insider.com/news (that was the Q), but on both sites in the "news" section the headlines appear generally normal (hence "generally reliable" being our standard) and like your average news story/site. TheSandDoctor Talk 17:58, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS came about basically because the magazine has a history of publishing false and (court-proven) libelous stories with scant fact-checking in the area of politics/social issues and only that area. Its reputation for fact checking and accuracy is very different for its music coverage, where it is regarded as being very good. But I’m not seeing something parallel here; most of the criticism I am seeing for Insider is about its site-wide practices, not just criticism of practices related to a specific topic area or subdomain. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 19:27, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- @JBchrch: WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS demonstrates that while Rolling Stone is a single website, its sections can be assessed independently as well; as such, this isn't an unprecedented question. "Latest" is indeed the feed of all latest articles in all sections by the looks of it, but that is also irrelevant to this RfC at hand as already described. I was also mostly referring to insider.com/news (that was the Q), but on both sites in the "news" section the headlines appear generally normal (hence "generally reliable" being our standard) and like your average news story/site. TheSandDoctor Talk 17:58, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that point, which I had indeed missed. However, I'm not sure it makes a difference. The way I understand how insider.com works is that it publishes individual stories which it categorizes with various tags. So for instance How a 'Minions' meme craze among teens may have boosted the new movie's box office is a "Media" story which can be also found in the "News" section. So, contrary to Buzzfeed and Buzzfeed News, which are two different websites, Insider is one single website, which I think should be assessed as a whole. (Perhaps that makes me a dissenter to Insider Culture RfC.) This is confirmed by the fact that even if you are in the News section of the website, if you click on "Latest", it shows you the latest stores published in all the sections of the website, including I'm a professional baker who tried making Martha Stewart's signature yellow cake. Here are 2 ways I'd improve her recipe., an article in the Food section. JBchrch talk 17:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- @JBchrch: I will just note that none of the referenced premium stories are from the news section, which is predominately free reading, and therefore not exactly relevant to the question being asked. Have you seen any particular problems with the news section? The question here isn't evaluating the whole publication; this is asking specifically about their news section coverage. The average headline and story content for the news section seems rather newsy. e.g. "A long-lost letter from Alexander Hamilton about the war with the British has been returned and is now on display in Boston", "Highland Park shooting suspect charged with 7 counts of first-degree murder with 'dozens more' to be pursued, state attorney says", "China refutes NASA chief's claim that the country is looking to take over the moon", "The Highland Park shooting suspect confessed to carrying out the massacre during police interview, prosecutors say" etc. Normal, routine news coverage you would expect of a publication. BuzzFeed and BuzzFeed News, for example, are treated differently and we've already previously established that different Insider sections can be assessed differently (Insider's culture section is considered RS). TheSandDoctor Talk 00:41, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion (BI)
- Based on this Pulitzer development, I believe that we should reconsider its news coverage's classification. --TheSandDoctor Talk 00:13, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
johnmenadue.com
The website is a public affairs site with independent contributors ran by former Australian diplomat John Menadue, but User:Horse Eye's Back said it's unreliable and removed all mentions of it. But I cannot find anything here that suggests it's actually unreliable. The source in question is [1] by journalist Marcus Rubenstein, formerly of Seven and SBS News. Any takes? 49.180.197.4 (talk) 17:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note that they describe themselves (possibly in a tongue in cheek fashion) as an "influential public policy journal"[2] not a "public affairs site" which often leads to them being cited as a journal... It's Menadue's personal fiefdom and they are open and honest about what they publish which is blog content not journalism or scholarship "We publish informed analysis and commentary on issues that matter to Australians, with a focus on politics, public policy, foreign policy and world affairs, defence and security, the economy, media, the arts and religion."[3] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:17, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think that most journalists aspire to being able to say "We publish informed analysis and commentary on issues that matter". That particular statement doesn't say that it's not a journalistic endeavor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Guardian describes it as his blog, "Since 2013 he has published his blog ‘Pearls & Irritations’ at johnmenadue.com/blog."[4] Menadue himself refers to it as "my blog"[5] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:24, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- It is obviously a bit more than the average blog, but I did find that they accept user articles. I failed at finding information about editorial oversight or fact-checking. --SVTCobra 18:38, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Editorial oversight and fact-checking appear to consist of Mr Menadue reviewing the submission, although it should be noted that the most prolific contributors (among the hundreds of single submission authors)[6] are Mr Menadue's friends so there may be more of an informal social group oversight dynamic for those. They do accept notes but its through their general contact us page and is deeply burried on the About Pearls and Irritations page "To alert us to a factual error or make a complaint, please use the contact us form." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:51, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Their about page seems to indicate that (1) this started as a simple blog and (2) that they say that they edit user submissions
for style, clarity and accuracy.
I'm not really sure about the accuracy of that claim; another page tells a prospective contributor thatwe have very limited resources to edit your post
. A particular article is literally a blogger referencing a "paper" that they've published on their own website with lots of language to try to promote their website's credibility. It's more of an advertisement than a news/analysis piece. And looking in a bit more, the author of that piece (Jaq James) appears to be quite sus (though Chinese state media consider her to be an academic researcher and a "Western Propaganda Analyst"). She's written four articles with them, all of which went up after The Australian reported on how her organization managed to mysteriously get information that had been stolen by Chinese government hackers. This is a bit of a red flag for me; we... don't exactly want to be citing this sort of thing as if it were somehow reliable. - The odd case of Jaq James aside, the articles generally read less like news reporting and more like an opinion and analysis than news reporting; I would hesitate to call it a WP:NEWSORG, and if it is one then (1) I'm skeptical of its reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and (2) it doesn't make a habit of labeling its opinion/analysis pieces as being distinct from news pieces. It's certainly not an academic journal. It appears to be something something like a CounterPunch, where there is minimal editorial oversight (if any) over submissions despite claiming to provide it, though the content issues I can identify for this website are less substantial than the issues with CounterPunch itself. I'm not really sure where we'd need to cite it, though I'm fine with WP:ABOUTSELF if it helps to build up a biography's section on someone's political positions or something of that sort. But I don't think that this can be read as anything other than pure WP:SPS. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 05:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Appreciate your clarification Horse Eye. Can the site still be used for the opinions of some of its contributors, for instance [7] to state that that this is sole the personal views of former Australian diplomat Bruce Haigh? Also it's worth noting that Haigh has repeated his views on his personal website [8], and did not appear in the Chinese propaganda video at all. The other cited diplomats also made them independently of the video.--115.64.98.205 (talk) 00:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- I would think that WP:SELFPUB would apply for this blog. So, in other words, only use extremely cautiously, probably with in-text attribution and never as a source about living people. I would probably just try to find another source to support a statement unless it is an attributed opinion from a recognised expert in the field. Vladimir.copic (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- In that specific case I would think that Haigh's own blog would be the preferred source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- It is obviously a bit more than the average blog, but I did find that they accept user articles. I failed at finding information about editorial oversight or fact-checking. --SVTCobra 18:38, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NEWSORG applies: analysis and commentary in any publication can only be considered reliable if written by an expert. In this case an expert would be someone who had published articles on the topic they were writing about in academic journals. But in that case weight would also apply, so it would only make sense to use this as a source for relatively obscure topics that receive little attention in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 00:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Are videos by "professional" YouTubers reliable sources?
I'm referring to someone who edited the reception section on the RWBY page, saying "the video is by a professional YouTuber who is well known and verified". Here is the video link for reference. As is my understanding, YouTube videos are not, generally, reliable sources. The summary on WP:RSPSOURCES says that most videos on YouTube are "anonymous, self-published, and unverifiable, and should not be used at all" but says that "content uploaded from a verified official account, such as that of a news organization, may be treated as originating from the uploader and therefore inheriting their level of reliability" and notes that "however, many YouTube videos from unofficial accounts are copyright violations and should not be linked from Wikipedia."
Personally, I would not consider Hbomberguy to be a "news organization" and would argue his reviews fall under what TheAmazingPeanuts said in 2020, that YouTube videos are "self-published website and self-published websites are not reliable sources per WP:SPS" and in line with what was said about Wikitubia YouTube videos earlier this year. But, I've also read some people on here saying that YouTube is the media and doesn't have an influence on reliability (or unreliability) of a source.
Anyway, I'd like to hear from you all before proceeding with editing that section. Historyday01 (talk) 00:32, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- That is a good question. Historyday01. YouTube is indeed the medium over which the video is transmitted, but does give me pause as a whole, save for the carve-outs you've already outlined. I guess there could be a philosophical argument to be had, though, that everything is self-published in some way...but YouTube has a lot of low quality content on it.
I guess, depending on the subject and how the organization uploading etc falls into RS categories, it could be acceptable on a case-by-case basis? This is a tough one to answer.TheSandDoctor Talk 00:49, 7 July 2022 (UTC)- Striking as I just ended up quoting WP:SPS. That is probably the safest thing to fall back on. --TheSandDoctor Talk 00:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's my thinking too. What's annoying is that there ARE other criticisms of RWBY which are in more reliable sources. I mean, even this article (which is by an ANN reviewer) could be seen as more reliable, or even this CBR article, perhaps. Otherwise, when you do searches like "criticism of RWBY" or "problems with RWBY" a bunch of self-published stuff comes up, nothing that would be considered reliable on here, from what I've observed from a search tonight. Historyday01 (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the revert, nor consider Hbomberguy reliable. He is high-profile, and per the WP page received awards, but that doesn't mean that the account should be considered as a reliable "news organisation" nor is there any editorial control for it to be "verified" on YouTube, which is a self-published source. I think another point is probably WP:DUE,
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources
; I agree with this edit, as the previous versionConversely, RWBY's reception has since been grown from generally positive to overwhelmingly negative
based on two reviews (one probably not reliable), seems to me a POV by Historyday01. This (YouTube is indeed the medium over which the video is transmitted, but does give me pause as a whole, save for the carve-outs you've already outlined. I guess there could be a philosophical argument to be had, though, that everything is self-published in some way...but YouTube has a lot of low quality content on it
) is an excellent point, but even if Hbomberguy has a website instead of a channel, would it be considered an RS? IMO probably not.
- I don't agree with the revert, nor consider Hbomberguy reliable. He is high-profile, and per the WP page received awards, but that doesn't mean that the account should be considered as a reliable "news organisation" nor is there any editorial control for it to be "verified" on YouTube, which is a self-published source. I think another point is probably WP:DUE,
- I have some concerns for the other refs. I find CBR's listicles poor and superficial, and IMO this one is no exception, but it's probably marginally reliable and IMO is better than the current provided ref. This is probably an piece], per
Q-taku is a column by Rose where she discusses anime, manga and other parts of associated pop culture and its fandom, and her take on it all as a queer feminist viewer
, though the author has expertise in ANN, but even opinion columns by journalists or experts in NY Times and The Guardian are considered by RSP to need additional considerations, so to me it's also maginally reliable. So IMO the rm of the Hbomberguy mention should be done, and potentially replace with these two refs, but as they are marginally reliable at best, I think that I agree with Historyday01's edits, and that "it received generally positive reviews but also critcism for..." would be okay for now. VickKiang (talk) 23:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)- I agree with you there. Just like there isn't any editorial control for someone to be verified on Twitter, I wouldn't think there is any for YouTube either. Google says they verify channels which are "authentic" and "complete" but there is nothing about editorial control, from what I've provided.
- It looks like ANN only has reviewed the manga, but not the web series, as no review is listed here. They have reviewed RWBY: Ice Queendom but that's a separate series. I'm not completely sure about those links I provided anyhow an you make good points about reliability, but I'll see if I can find something else. In the meantime, I'll remove that Hbomberguy entry. I also imagine that this discussion will be useful for anyone to refer to if someone tries to add a video from YouTube and claims that it is reliable because the YouTuber is a "professional", whatever that means. Historyday01 (talk) 23:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed overall. The video being used as a reference is a video essay, and thus at best an WP:RSOPINION, and only if it's considered WP:DUE for the topic. And as far as the (arguably non-NPOV) statement of
Conversely, RWBY's reception has since been grown from generally positive to overwhelmingly negative.
I think using YouTube video essays to make such a statement of fact is always going to be a major issue. You'll almost always be able to find a YouTube video essay that makes the point you want, and viewer count doesn't equate to reliability. If used, it needs to be DUE and attributed as opinion, at least in a case like this where it's "popular YouTuber's opinion is...". This isn't a self-published piece by a credentialed subject matter expert, which might make for a different case for use under WP:RS/SPS. Bakkster Man (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have some concerns for the other refs. I find CBR's listicles poor and superficial, and IMO this one is no exception, but it's probably marginally reliable and IMO is better than the current provided ref. This is probably an piece], per
- I would say in general, no, these are not, but it is possible in isolated cases that a person gains enough of a reputation within the community (and if that community is based on commercially-generated content, with the creators of that content), then yes, they can be considered weak reliable sources but shouldn't used for "significant" claims, like anything political. But when that happens needs to be established by the editing community for that topic area. --Masem (t) 01:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- +1, an example being Anthony Fantano. JBchrch talk 13:13, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If they are a professional in the fieled it is bieng used as a source for, yes (per wp:sps) if they are not, then no. Just being a "proffesional Youtuber" is not enough to establish expertise about anything. Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's a strange one, because isn't a professional YouTuber an expert/professional in the field of web content (RWBY)? But in this case, I think an animated web series is best reviewed by somebody writing for a(n online) news source or respected publication that is directly paying them a fee for the piece, not a YouTuber without this professional criticism background. — Bilorv (talk) 11:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Denisova's declarations on child rape
The question is whether former Ukrainian ombudsperson Lyudmyla Denisova's interviews and statements about sexual crimes committed by Russian soldiers in Ukraine qualify as reliable source in the context of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Some background information is needed. Since March 2022 Denisova has released interviews and statements about rapes committed by Russian troops against infants, children, young women and men, elderly people. We already had a discussion on this at RS/N, following which we dropped the more gruesome, shocking details from the article on War crimes and we're now saying that Denisova reported multiple rapes of children, some very young
. We are also reporting that according to her about 25 girls and women between the ages of 14 to 24 were locked in a basement and raped for almost a month in Bucha, and nine became pregnant
(as reported, but not verified, by New York Times, BBC and other outlets). However, in the article Sexual violence in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine her declarations are still published in detail, although we are not reporting her statement about a 6-month-old girl raped by a Russian solider with a teaspoon.
Since that first discussion at RS/N, 140 Ukrainian journalists and human rights activists have signed an open letter asking Denisova, among other things, to Publish only that information for which there is enough evidence, check the facts before publication
(here the letter in Ukrainian [9], here an account in English [10]). On 31 May the Ukrainian Parliament removed her from office accusing her, among other things, of making "not verified", "unverifiable" or "unsubstantiated" declarations about child rape (these being the words used by Deutsche Welle, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post respectively). At the end of June, Ukrainska Pravda published a report on Denisova (in Ukrainian) which was summarised in English by Meduza (here). The report says that Denisova was circulating information gathered by her daughter, who was working for a psychological helpline service Denisova had set up; it says that Denisova's office never sent any information about the alleged crimes or the victims' contact information to law enforcement agencies; finally, it says that Denisova explained to the Ukrainian prosecutor office that she "told these horrific stories because she wants Ukraine to be victorious."
Based on this essay on interviews, I think that Denisova's statements qualify as a secondary source on war crimes in Ukraine; based on the information I've just shared, I believe that they don't qualify as reliable sources on conflict-related sexual violence in Ukraine. We had a couple of discussions on this in the talk page of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: #Denisova's dismissal and #25 girls between the ages of 14 to 24 raped in Bucha, held captive in a basement, nine became pregnant and we didn't reach a consensus. I hope that a discussion at RS/N could help us move forwards. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:36, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Having read that the Ukrainian parliament don't consider her reliable in her declarations, and that these statements may harm potential victims of sexual violence, it is fairly clear that she is not a reliable source for any factual statements. As both sides in the war consider her to be making statements which are at least partially false, I can't see how we can use her statements in anything other the article about her. She is in essence WP:FRINGE. Boynamedsue (talk) 12:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
On 31 May the Ukrainian Parliament removed her from office accusing her, among other things, of making "not verified", "unverifiable" or "unsubstantiated" declarations about child rape (these being the words used by Deutsche Welle, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post respectively).
Worth noting that these words are neither from the parliamentary statement on her removal nor from these RSs’ descriptions of it, but their paraphrase of a social media post by one (important) MP. Agree we can’t use her as a source for particular atrocities happening (unless verified by other sources) but we can mention her comments with attribution as she’s obviously a major figure in the story. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)- I don't think it is possible to include her comments without immediate qualification that she made unverified statements and didn't check her facts. If we have to do that, why are we including her comments? Reference to her is only warranted on the page about her, or possibly in a section which explains that her comments are unreliable. I can't see any other way under WP:NPOV to include comments which everybody accepts to be dubious.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Making that qualification risks SYNTH. I’d need to see an example of a contested use, but for example if multiple RSs say “Denisova alleged X” that might be noteworthy even if other sources say other allegations weren’t verified by anyone else. If we mention specific allegations that RSs say weren’t verified, then we should make the qualification. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC) Can I check, is this the disputed text? It feels due to me as couple of strong RSs. If it is the disputed text, are there sources saying this specific allegation was unverified (because it’s different from the child rape cases the open letter focuses on isn’t it?) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't fully understand your position @Bobfrombrockley because it seems to me you're making two incompatible claims. On the one hand, you say that
if multiple RSs say “Denisova alleged X” that might be noteworthy
. I agree that it might be noteworthy in an article on Denisova but I don't understand how it might be noteworthy in an article on war crimes in Ukraine (unless Denisova is taken to be a reliable source). On the other hand, you are also saying that youAgree we can’t use her as a source for particular atrocities happening
. But how do the two things work together? In March and April, The New York Times, BBC and the others took Denisova as a reliable source on war crimes because she had access to important informative channels. But in May quality press at large stopped publishing her horrific accounts of war crimes in Ukraine, and today The New York Times would no longer write "Denisova alleged X". By the way, this recent report by the OHCHR doesn't mention 25 young girls raped for a month in a basement, rapes against toddlers, baby tortured with a teaspoon, children used as human shields: there's a huge amount of terrible war crimes, but not these. So why should we continue to have Denisova's allegations in our articles? Why should we be less reliable than our sources? We are writing an encyclopedia and we should choose our sources carefully. We have many policies and guidelines that should prevent us from uncritically include these materials: WP:RS, WP:RECENT, WP:NOTNEWS and also WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:44, 13 July 2022 (UTC)- I’d need to see the disputed text to know what’s being argued over. But what I’m saying is we probably shouldn’t say “x atrocity occurred” and cite her as a source, but we might want to say “Denisova alleged x atrocity occurred” in a context where it is noteworthy. BobFromBrockley (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Re SYNTH, there are several Rs which deal with Denisova's sacking and detail the criticisms of her, alongside details of her claims. I don't see how SYNTH could be relevant here.--Boynamedsue (talk) 07:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be SYNTH if we said something like "Denisova alleged X[fn1] but some have accused her of making unverifiable allegations[fn2]". (If a single source includes both, that wouldn't be SYNTH, or if the specific allegation we mentioned was contested in an RS.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be synth, but there would be not need to do that as sources which detail both her claims and the reaction to them exist. Denisova's claims should not be in the main body of the article, as nobody thinks she is reliable. What might possibly be valid is a separate section detailing the fact she made certain claims and the reaction to them, indicating that there were severe doubts about her reliability. I don't think there would be any difficulty avoiding synth, given the wealth of sources which cover her sacking. --Boynamedsue (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be SYNTH if we said something like "Denisova alleged X[fn1] but some have accused her of making unverifiable allegations[fn2]". (If a single source includes both, that wouldn't be SYNTH, or if the specific allegation we mentioned was contested in an RS.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Re SYNTH, there are several Rs which deal with Denisova's sacking and detail the criticisms of her, alongside details of her claims. I don't see how SYNTH could be relevant here.--Boynamedsue (talk) 07:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I’d need to see the disputed text to know what’s being argued over. But what I’m saying is we probably shouldn’t say “x atrocity occurred” and cite her as a source, but we might want to say “Denisova alleged x atrocity occurred” in a context where it is noteworthy. BobFromBrockley (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't fully understand your position @Bobfrombrockley because it seems to me you're making two incompatible claims. On the one hand, you say that
- Making that qualification risks SYNTH. I’d need to see an example of a contested use, but for example if multiple RSs say “Denisova alleged X” that might be noteworthy even if other sources say other allegations weren’t verified by anyone else. If we mention specific allegations that RSs say weren’t verified, then we should make the qualification. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC) Can I check, is this the disputed text? It feels due to me as couple of strong RSs. If it is the disputed text, are there sources saying this specific allegation was unverified (because it’s different from the child rape cases the open letter focuses on isn’t it?) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it is possible to include her comments without immediate qualification that she made unverified statements and didn't check her facts. If we have to do that, why are we including her comments? Reference to her is only warranted on the page about her, or possibly in a section which explains that her comments are unreliable. I can't see any other way under WP:NPOV to include comments which everybody accepts to be dubious.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
trip-suggest.com
Given the about page shows this a single person's website who is using public sourcing, which I believe includes Wikipedia for a bonus of WP:CIRCULAR, this should not be used as a source on Wikipedia. Right?
A search shows 97 pages (can't get this to work as a wikilink, sorry) currently using the source.
If others agree and have AWB or other semi-automated tool to remove the link that would be appreciated, otherwise I will have to do one by one on mobile. Doable, but time consuming. Slywriter (talk) 15:36, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 at best/Unreliable Easy, I agree entirely and would actually support deprecation perhaps, but sadly this isn't an RfC, but this is absolutely horrible ref. Probably copied and pasted from numerous (public) places, looking at the Afghanistan article (see its version and another one from Ohio State University). Looking at the article on Perth, it says, with poor grammar and "some clip posted online" (?), I don't think I've seen a worse travel site:
While being here, you might want to check out Perth South . We discovered some clip posted online . Scroll down to see the most favourite one or select the video collection in the navigation. Are you curious about the possible sightsseing spots and facts in Perth ? We have collected some references on our attractions page.
- Next, it covers a building that plagiarises WP and is circular sourcing, see the WP article:
The Jubilee Building is part of the Western Australian Museum in Perth, Western Australia, Australia. Designed in the Victorian Byzantine style by George Temple-Poole and supervised by his 1895 successor John Harry Grainger, it was opened in 1899. The building was originally planned as a combined library, museum and art gallery to be sited in St Georges Terrace, Perth to commemorate Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee in 1887
. Looking at the Russian article, the UNESCO sites are copied and pasted partially, the terms and conditions says that it's okay, provided with attribution, to share and adapt content, so it's probably not a copyvio (although nowhere could I see attributed refs or links), as such, the article is useless for WP (citing directly from UNESCO is far better). The about page then has the following:Trip-Suggest.com - built and operated by me as a single person - is a free website. It uses public and free data from various sources to provide people around the globe with a solid first impression of any placae on this world
, no indication of editorial policies and has a typo! IMO, this website is unreliable and perhaps worthy of deprecation, it's an example of circular sourcing, questionable use of copyrights, and no evidence of fact-checking. VickKiang (talk) 04:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Cambridge Scholars Publishing
Uanfala (talk · contribs) insists on restoring content sourced to Cambridge Scholars Publishing, because according to them, they aren't predatory and that removing bad sources is 'disruptive'.
I contend that CSP is a vanity press by every meaningful definition of the term. Anyone can publish with them, at no charge, and they do not meaningfully review the submissions. See also previous discussions on CSP and CSP sources
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_236#Linguist's_history
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_286#Vanity press (where CSP is mentionned)
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_209#Cambridge_Scholars
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_221#Sources_regarding_Tsamiko_and_Osman_Taka_dances._Do_they_meet_Wikipedia_criteria_for_reliability_?
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_359#Citogenesis incident
- Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_69#Da_Vinci_Globe
So I would like consensus on whether or not the community considers Cambridge Scholars Publishing to be a reliable publisher. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion (Cambridge Scholars Publishing)
- I'm pretty sure it's well established by consensus here and reliable sources that it is in fact predatory. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Very obviously unreliable That's not to say we can't ever cite them, but short of a review praising certain works, we shouldn't be citing them. Especially when other sources are already present supporting the material in question. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:14, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- unequivocally useless and unreliable per this discussion and the dozens of others. PRAXIDICAE🌈 18:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I wish Headbomb had started this discussion before using AWB to remove several hundred references and then proceeding to edit-war with several people who have reverted him. Now, CSP are not a predatory publisher, that's not their model (as anyone would immediately notice if they bothered to read anything written about them). Are they a publisher of reliable sources on par with established academic presses like CUP or OUP? Of course they're not. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everything there is rubbish. We should approach them the same way we approach similar publishers, like Lincom: generally discourage their use without prohibiting it, never use them for anything contentious, and for non-contentious statements, evaluate on a case-by-case basis. But blanket removal is disruptive, especially when the articles citing them will often instead use less reliable sources, like newspapers, academia.edu drafts, or actual vanity presses. – Uanfala (talk) 19:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Are they a publisher of reliable sources? Of course they're not." That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
- And there is no disruption, I've removed and reviewed about 300 citations to CSP, which is obviously a predatory/vanity publisher (which loads of prior discussions all agreeing in the same direction). In all cases, the material was supported by other citations, and CSP is not needed and can be summarily removed. We should not be citing unreliable sources, and your restoration of them, knowing full well they are unreliable, is textbook WP:POINTY behaviour. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:46, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's been pointy to revert two bold semi-automated edits that were justified by the plainly wrong assertion that CSP was predatory. And to repeat and clarify what I wrote on the Kashmiri language talk page, you're proceeding from an incorrect presumption about how references normally relate to article text. If an article paragraph has two refs at its end, this doesn't necessarily mean that either one of those two refs would be enough to support the entirety of that paragraph. More often than not, parts of the text would be supported by one ref, and parts of it by the other. – Uanfala (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with the sentiments expressed above, particularly as no consensus has been reached here about the publisher. That is the sort of action that should occur after this discussion, not before or during it. As such, I reported it to ANI at WP:ANI#Problematic mass removal of sources by Headbomb.4meter4 (talk) 02:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's been pointy to revert two bold semi-automated edits that were justified by the plainly wrong assertion that CSP was predatory. And to repeat and clarify what I wrote on the Kashmiri language talk page, you're proceeding from an incorrect presumption about how references normally relate to article text. If an article paragraph has two refs at its end, this doesn't necessarily mean that either one of those two refs would be enough to support the entirety of that paragraph. More often than not, parts of the text would be supported by one ref, and parts of it by the other. – Uanfala (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment from an outside perspective, I think both sides have a point here. It seems consensus shows that this publisher is unreliable, but, as Uanfala has pointed out, the citations should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis rather than removed en mass by automation. If a particular source was written by a subject matter expert (which seems to occur occasionally at this publisher), it could still be used. If sources are removed, the relevant content should be examined and new sources found (if possible) or the content should be removed. Simply removing hundreds of sources and leaving someone else to clean up the mess is one way to do things, but in my opinion not the most responsible way. Toadspike (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is already a reliable citation for the entirety of this content. That's why it was removed. There remains over 3000 citations to this garbage publisher across Wikipedia. This was not a blanket removal, but a targeted one. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- What was the criteria for your targeting of these cases? Ford MF (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- a) It's CSP, which is prima facie unreliable b) Other sources support the content, which makes removal warranted without replacing it with a {{cn}} tag or similar. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- You said "this was not a blanket removal but a targeted one" which I took to mean you had employed some discretion. What does "targeted" in this sentence refer to? Ford MF (talk) 23:33, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Got it, since you're doing your due diligence you can continue as you were. I apologize for not looking into this too thoroughly yesterday. Toadspike (talk) 07:47, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- a) It's CSP, which is prima facie unreliable b) Other sources support the content, which makes removal warranted without replacing it with a {{cn}} tag or similar. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- What was the criteria for your targeting of these cases? Ford MF (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- It seems consensus shows that this publisher is unreliable fwiw ... I really don't think it does? Where is this consensus demonstrated? Ford MF (talk) 23:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Now that I have had time to read all the links provided above by Headbomb and Praxidicae, it seems that I was a little hasty in jumping to conclusions and giving the benefit of the doubt. None of the discussions linked show any sort of consensus against using CSP, quite a few are not even evaluations of the reliability or quality of CSP, and one is literally a question which received no responses. Not only does this convince me that CSP is not unreliable per se, but it also convinces me that the language used by the aforementioned editors was rather misleading in stating that anything was "well established by consensus". Toadspike (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- There is already a reliable citation for the entirety of this content. That's why it was removed. There remains over 3000 citations to this garbage publisher across Wikipedia. This was not a blanket removal, but a targeted one. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. I would like consensus on whether or not the community considers I don't have a real horse in this race, but -- as mentioned above -- this seems like a question one should ask before using AWB to mass remove hundreds of citations attributed to this press. Initiating what is essentially a policy decision on your own and then retroactively seeking support for it when people push back does not to me feel like an excessively good faith action. As for what to do with CSP, it seems like WP:CONTEXTMATTERS in this case. I became aware of this issue when I saw Headbomb remove a citation from Apaturia (Greek mythology). In context, the reference there was one of three works (one published by a more reputable academic publisher, Palgrave) citing a particular statement, all of which generally in reference to a primary source (Pausanias). The work in this context was a corroborating citation, in a work published by an ancient history Ph.D., and its removal in this instance does not truly cause harm, but also seems an overly aggressive exercise of policy where no policy actually exists. If this had been the only citation in the article, for whatever reason, I think this specific article would be poorer without it. If we want to have a blanket reliability policy against all works published by CSP, that seems extreme to me given the circumstances, but I think is also a reasonable decision for the community to make. I don't think it's reasonable to unilaterally implement a de facto policy that CSP references are banned unless some editor wants to make their case (see OP's talk page) to the single editor who decided this ought to be policy. Ford MF (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you read the above linked discussions, there is clear consensus that it's unreliable and given the fact that it is established fact that it is predatory, policy dictates that it is in fact unreliable. PRAXIDICAE🌈 20:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- iiuc this discussion is the measurement of consensus for WP:RSDEPRECATED, so I'm not sure how you can say this has already been decided. Ford MF (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because it has been discussed endlessly here as linked above and the outcome is always the same. There is no point in having these discussions if we're going to rehash them every time someone wants to whine about it's non-use. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If it had already been decided, I would expect this to be present on WP:DEPRECATED, and it is not. Ford MF (talk) 22:53, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- ...many sources which are deprecated don't appear there but it doesn't change the fact that for example, Fandom can't be used to source anything that isn't about Fandom isn't on there - but it is never allowed because it is defacto unreliable. This isn't rocket science. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If there is no canonical source of truth for a policy I would submit that no policy in fact exists. If you're asking me to believe a final decision has been made about a thing, show me that evidence. This isn't rocket science. Looking at the conversations above, most of them contain only fairly glancing reference to the publisher we're discussing here, and the only direct one is six years old. And since the it seems like some relevant things have changed (addition of credited editorial boards, publishers rating in Norwegian Scientific Index upgraded). As I said elsewhere, I don't have any particular stake in this publisher's fate within the Wikipedia project, however I don't think I've seen a single genuine argument advanced here as to why exactly this particular journal ought to be wholesale denylisted from the project. Just a lot of people repeating "vanity press / bad editorial" like a mantra, without any explanation for how these standards are judged. Ford MF (talk) 23:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are just being repetitive and missing the point. We have standards that are based in policy surrounding reliability and that does not require an RFC every time a subject is brought up. Of course, you're welcome to make the argument that everything is reliable unless proven otherwise, but you'd be wrong and quickly reverted anywhere you would add such sources. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If there is no canonical source of truth for a policy I would submit that no policy in fact exists. If you're asking me to believe a final decision has been made about a thing, show me that evidence. This isn't rocket science. Looking at the conversations above, most of them contain only fairly glancing reference to the publisher we're discussing here, and the only direct one is six years old. And since the it seems like some relevant things have changed (addition of credited editorial boards, publishers rating in Norwegian Scientific Index upgraded). As I said elsewhere, I don't have any particular stake in this publisher's fate within the Wikipedia project, however I don't think I've seen a single genuine argument advanced here as to why exactly this particular journal ought to be wholesale denylisted from the project. Just a lot of people repeating "vanity press / bad editorial" like a mantra, without any explanation for how these standards are judged. Ford MF (talk) 23:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- ...many sources which are deprecated don't appear there but it doesn't change the fact that for example, Fandom can't be used to source anything that isn't about Fandom isn't on there - but it is never allowed because it is defacto unreliable. This isn't rocket science. PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If it had already been decided, I would expect this to be present on WP:DEPRECATED, and it is not. Ford MF (talk) 22:53, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because it has been discussed endlessly here as linked above and the outcome is always the same. There is no point in having these discussions if we're going to rehash them every time someone wants to whine about it's non-use. PRAXIDICAE🌈 21:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- iiuc this discussion is the measurement of consensus for WP:RSDEPRECATED, so I'm not sure how you can say this has already been decided. Ford MF (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you read the above linked discussions, there is clear consensus that it's unreliable and given the fact that it is established fact that it is predatory, policy dictates that it is in fact unreliable. PRAXIDICAE🌈 20:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Unreliable, should be prohibited
"Are they a publisher of reliable sources? Of course they're not."
Chris Troutman (talk) 21:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC) - Vanispamcruft. Unreliable predatory publisher. Kudos to Headbomb for taking on the unpleasant task of removing references to that predatory garbage. --Randykitty (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Unreliable- predatory junk publisher that calls itself Cambridge Scholars so that people will think it's affiliated with Cambridge University. Deceit and trickery, and I would expect very little of anything "published" by them. Reyk YO! 21:50, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I won't disagree that the term "Cambridge" today carries an immediate air of prestige. But there's a lot of places named Cambridge (many founded by people who never cared about the university -- what would the Greeks think?), and any startup company will try to appropriate local prestige. Regardless, from its reported history, they seem to have at least some justification for the name, so there's no reason to call it "deceit". SamuelRiv (talk) 17:40, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. Probably worth pointing out that CSP books are found in a lot of good academic libraries. Harvard Library, for example, has almost 1,900 titles [11] (most of these are print books, not e-books), while the library of Cambridge University itself – hardly to be accused of falling for trickery and not recognising its own publisher – has over 5,000 [12] (a third of which are physical copies). Of course, being available in academic libraries doesn't guarantee reliability, but the numbers above indicate we're not seeing merely the examples of sporadic flotsam and jetsam that big libraries like to keep. Those arguing that the publisher is
obviously
unreliable, or that it is spamvanwhatever, should really provide evidence for those assertions. – Uanfala (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2022 (UTC)- If you want to make a case for the reliability for this or that book published by them, go ahead. But the default position for a vanity publisher with poor editorial oversight should be against inclusion. Reyk YO! 22:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- As someone new to the discourse on this particular publisher, I see a lot of assertions that they *are* "a vanity publisher with poor editorial oversight", and relatively little to back that up, other than a seeming implicit conviction that this is self-evident. Ford MF (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- So...a publisher that solicits non-qualified "academics" for publication and then charges them for publication is what, exactly? Also please feel free to identify their editorial board. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- https://cambridgescholars[.]com/pages/meet-our-editorial-advisors. Ford MF (talk) 23:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Also, where is the source for your assertion that its portfolio consists of unqualified writers? And why is academics in quotation marks? Ford MF (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Have you read any of the sources linked in the article about CSP? It's pretty adequately covered there. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Praxidicae, if there is any source about the claim that CSP charge authors for publication, then please provide it. I don't see that in any of the sources I've checked. – Uanfala (talk) 23:26, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have! As far as I can tell there are only two references in the entire article that support the "predatory" label. One is the beallslist.net reference, and the other is the guy who runs Flaky Academic Journals dot blogspot dot com. The Flaky Academic Journals guy ... I mean, okay. Some guy with a blogspot made one post about this five years ago, but more recent posts from bloggers of seeming equal standing seem to represent an opinion contrary to this. The beallslist thing is interesting to me! But 1) it looks like the list itself is not without detractors, and CSP was anonymously added to it as an addendum after the original list was abandoned by Jeffrey Beall, *and* even if Jeffrey Beall did think CSP sucked, there is no evidence he thought those titles should not be carried as part of a reputable academic collection. And in fact, as demonstrated above, very reputable and notable academic librarians *do* believe that a non-trivial number of CSP publications belong in their collection. Ford MF (talk) 23:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Again, if you want to make a case for the reliability of some individual book, go ahead. It is, however, not possible to say, "It's in CSP therefore it is reliable". The default position should be that it is questionable at best. Reyk YO! 23:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Can you explain why this is the default position? So far I do not see you making any argument or listing any criteria for this assessment. You've made a claim that the press is "predatory" and "vanity", and implicitly that that means citations from these works should be unilaterally deleted from the project, and imho the onus is not on others to mount a counter-argument to this when the claimant(s) have not in fact mounted any argument at all, only simply repeated the original claims as if they were already established as true. Ford MF (talk) 23:50, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because CSP is a vanity press and utter garbage. See all previous discussions, Beall's list, flaky journals, etc. And on Wikipedia, when we encounter a garbage source, the default is to exclude it, unless it can be shown to not be garbage. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. If someone reads through all those previous discussions and still comes to the conclusion that CSP is reliable then nothing will ever convince them otherwise. Fortunately, WP:CONSENSUS is policy. Reyk YO! 00:06, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Making decisions by consensus is policy. Asserting that your position is the consensus one without some independent demonstration of this is not a policy as far as I'm aware. The closer [ie the decider of consensus] is not to be a judge of the issue, but rather of the argument. WP:DISCARD There are by my count three people on this thread advancing the position "CSP is a predatory vanity press" (with the implication that citations for works from this press should by default be disallowed) but I do not see one single argument made in support of that position, only insistence that the position is prima facie true, or insistence that the position has already reached consensus in this or that other place, like the princess continually being in another castle. And there are two editors who seem to disagree with this position and/or believe that he burden of proof is on the people making the claim, and that has not been satisfied. This does not look like consensus to me. Other folks may feel otherwise. Ford MF (talk) 00:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's clear that you're determined that CSP should be treated as a priori reliable, the same way that Cambridge University Press, or Springer, or Addison-Wesley are respected academic publishers. My position is that the deliberately misleading name raises questions about their academic integrity, that actual academics in a good position to judge have verifiably described them as sketchy, that there are numerous documented instances of poor quality control, and that they are not up-front with authors about how little quality control they do. All these concerns have been brought up in the previous discussions linked to by Headbomb. Why are you so eager to dismiss them? The current status quo here on Wikipedia is that CSP is not super trustworthy, IMO correctly, and if you think they are suddenly legit then you need to make that case. Reyk YO! 00:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- My position is that the deliberately misleading name ... I disagree that the publisher's name is admissible as evidence of the publisher's quality one way or the other. The website claims the company was founded, in Cambridge, by lecturers from Cambridge U -- literally, Cambridge Scholars -- and I haven't seen anyone disprove or even question this, just a lot of people assuming, as you seem to be doing here, that the name has nefarious intent.
- actual academics in a good position to judge have verifiably described them as sketchy There seem to be other academics, in equivalently good position, who do not agree with this assessment.
- Numerous documented instances of poor quality control Definitely agree it looks like they've published a couple of crappy books over the years.
- They are not up-front with authors about how little quality control they do. I do not see the source of this claim in the discussions above?
- The current status quo here on Wikipedia is that CSP is not super trustworthy again, there is a repeated insistence that this consensus already exists and has been decided previously, when I do not feel like any of the referenced conversations demonstrate this at all.
- Ford MF (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I also feel like you are proposing an entirely false binary here in which there exist no scholarly presses between Lulu[.]com and Springer Verlag, and every press must be one or the other. I am not trying to argue that this press deserves a position among Springer, AW, CUP, etc etc. As a former academic-book-biz guy in a past life, I think it's safe to say they'd be pretty far down on my list when it came time to place orders. I *do* however disagree that the correct response in the project to an obviously not A-list publisher is for citations to be default deleted on sight. Ford MF (talk) 01:12, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's clear that you're determined that CSP should be treated as a priori reliable, the same way that Cambridge University Press, or Springer, or Addison-Wesley are respected academic publishers. My position is that the deliberately misleading name raises questions about their academic integrity, that actual academics in a good position to judge have verifiably described them as sketchy, that there are numerous documented instances of poor quality control, and that they are not up-front with authors about how little quality control they do. All these concerns have been brought up in the previous discussions linked to by Headbomb. Why are you so eager to dismiss them? The current status quo here on Wikipedia is that CSP is not super trustworthy, IMO correctly, and if you think they are suddenly legit then you need to make that case. Reyk YO! 00:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Making decisions by consensus is policy. Asserting that your position is the consensus one without some independent demonstration of this is not a policy as far as I'm aware. The closer [ie the decider of consensus] is not to be a judge of the issue, but rather of the argument. WP:DISCARD There are by my count three people on this thread advancing the position "CSP is a predatory vanity press" (with the implication that citations for works from this press should by default be disallowed) but I do not see one single argument made in support of that position, only insistence that the position is prima facie true, or insistence that the position has already reached consensus in this or that other place, like the princess continually being in another castle. And there are two editors who seem to disagree with this position and/or believe that he burden of proof is on the people making the claim, and that has not been satisfied. This does not look like consensus to me. Other folks may feel otherwise. Ford MF (talk) 00:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I take your response to mean you are applying no independent criteria of your own or the project's, and are using those of Beall's list and the flaky journals guy as proxies here. That's reasonable! You can't do direct due diligence on everything personally. But I think I have clearly described why neither of these sources seem like open and shut cases to me (reasonable people seem to disagree about Beall's list, CSP wasn't even on it until anonymous inclusion fairly recently, the Flaky blog guy article is pretty old), especially when measured against the countervailing opinions here (other, more positive blogs; reputable academic libraries holding sizeable amounts of CSP in circulation; reputable review organizations like Norwegian Scientific Index changing their rating of the press). So you keep repeating "vanity press" and "garbage" without making reference to any criteria the could be reviewed or falsified, and, well, I don't think it's surprising that other people might not find this a persuasive argument? (Or an argument at all?) Ford MF (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. If someone reads through all those previous discussions and still comes to the conclusion that CSP is reliable then nothing will ever convince them otherwise. Fortunately, WP:CONSENSUS is policy. Reyk YO! 00:06, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because CSP is a vanity press and utter garbage. See all previous discussions, Beall's list, flaky journals, etc. And on Wikipedia, when we encounter a garbage source, the default is to exclude it, unless it can be shown to not be garbage. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:58, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Can you explain why this is the default position? So far I do not see you making any argument or listing any criteria for this assessment. You've made a claim that the press is "predatory" and "vanity", and implicitly that that means citations from these works should be unilaterally deleted from the project, and imho the onus is not on others to mount a counter-argument to this when the claimant(s) have not in fact mounted any argument at all, only simply repeated the original claims as if they were already established as true. Ford MF (talk) 23:50, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Again, if you want to make a case for the reliability of some individual book, go ahead. It is, however, not possible to say, "It's in CSP therefore it is reliable". The default position should be that it is questionable at best. Reyk YO! 23:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Have you read any of the sources linked in the article about CSP? It's pretty adequately covered there. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- So...a publisher that solicits non-qualified "academics" for publication and then charges them for publication is what, exactly? Also please feel free to identify their editorial board. PRAXIDICAE🌈 23:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- As someone new to the discourse on this particular publisher, I see a lot of assertions that they *are* "a vanity publisher with poor editorial oversight", and relatively little to back that up, other than a seeming implicit conviction that this is self-evident. Ford MF (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you want to make a case for the reliability for this or that book published by them, go ahead. But the default position for a vanity publisher with poor editorial oversight should be against inclusion. Reyk YO! 22:27, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
- Publishers are one component of evaluating a reliable source. Look at the author, editors, etc. What kind of claim is being made? Is it controversial? Generally opposed to any mass removal based just on publisher without an evaluation of the actual source in context, and generally opposed to proposals to consider a book publisher unreliable without a systematic evaluation of the kind/quality of content they publish. A predatory publisher (and there is a wide spectrum of "predatory") is a red flag, but isn't itself completely disqualifying. Some predatory publishers are the equivalent of just being self-published (and not less than self-published), but there are many flavors/degrees. Meh. Default to standard editing practices like BRD and ONUS. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, with real predatory publishers, and real vanity publishers, whatever "real" is here, it should be the other way around: discredited until a particular article/book by a particular scholar can be deemed acceptable. So, I'll accept this Mellen book on Beowulf for a variety of reasons that I could explain. But in general, a publisher that produces this should not be taken seriously--until proven otherwise. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, when challenged, the onus is always on those who want to include a source to argue that it's reliable for that particular use (and otherwise justify inclusion), but we need a clear consensus about unreliability to remove just based on the publisher -- unreliability, not just predatory. The latter just means it's on a spectrum between WP:SPS and rigorous review/oversight, with the "real" ones at or near the former, but that
whatever "real" is here
is a toughy, and it seems too often the spectrum is collapsed to a binary. These conversations often look like we're talking about publishers known for false/misleading information, not ones that simply tend towards the WP:SPS side of the spectrum. CSP may be well on that SPS side, but that doesn't mean it's "discredited"; it means it's self-published. Self-published sources aren't discredited; based on the author, for example, there are plenty of times when we use them. They're just not sufficiently reliable for most purposes. Maybe we're getting into semantics with that distinction, though. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 03:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, when challenged, the onus is always on those who want to include a source to argue that it's reliable for that particular use (and otherwise justify inclusion), but we need a clear consensus about unreliability to remove just based on the publisher -- unreliability, not just predatory. The latter just means it's on a spectrum between WP:SPS and rigorous review/oversight, with the "real" ones at or near the former, but that
- No, with real predatory publishers, and real vanity publishers, whatever "real" is here, it should be the other way around: discredited until a particular article/book by a particular scholar can be deemed acceptable. So, I'll accept this Mellen book on Beowulf for a variety of reasons that I could explain. But in general, a publisher that produces this should not be taken seriously--until proven otherwise. Drmies (talk) 02:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I looked at all the linked discussions, and I have some thoughts about CSP (none of them are very good), but I fail to see that any of the discussions came to a clear consensus that CSP is an unreliable vanity press. And without that, we're kind of putting the cart before the horse. First we need clarity here. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 00:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- CSP is a vanity press. Their model is to have authors write whatever they want, conduct no review, offer no little-to-no editing services, and then charges universities and random suckers for those books. They've repeatedly published fringe nonsense, (example, example), or straight up copies of Wikipedia content example). They are listed by the two main freely available sources on predatory nonsense, Beall's list (now maintained by someone who isn't Beall), and Flaky Journals. Their books are widely condemned in review, which specifically call out the practices of CSP (e.g. "the absence of an editorial board has clearly failed to guide the author in the preparation of his publication". Library Guides specifically call out CSP as a publisher to avoid [13]. Or entire book chapters, from ISBN 9783838211992. If CSP isn't a vanity press and a garbage tier publisher, no one is. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- The Flaky Journals blog [14], though critical of CSP, does not characterise them as predatory. Your last link (the bit form the Scopus diaries) is also worth reading: it's explicit that vanity or predatory publishers are a lower tier than CSP, and it characterises CSP's drawback in not conferring a great deal of academic prestige.
- Their books are widely condemned in review? Well, I've had a look. Here's quotes from the reviews I checked (all except 4 (3 were excluded because of genre (popular science, memoirs), and 1 because it was as dry overview without a quotable conclusion):
- Di Rocco, Concezio (2019-11-01). "R. Shane Tubbs, J. Iwanaga, M. Loukas, R. J. Oskouian (Eds): Clinical anatomy of the ligaments of the craniocervical junction". Child's Nervous System. 35 (11): 2241–2241. doi:10.1007/s00381-019-04261-6. ISSN 1433-0350. "the book is a precious contribution to the understanding of all aspects of the craniocervical junction which should not only be part of the armamentarium of the neurosurgeon involved in clinical practice but also of the students and neurosurgeons in training"
- Carey, Peter (2021). "Manual of Bone Marrow Examination by Anwarul Islam (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2020; ISBN 978-1-5275-5890-8)". British Journal of Haematology. 193 (5): 1016–1016. doi:10.1111/bjh.17400. ISSN 1365-2141. "an excellent teaching resource for every haematology department"
- Kapparis, Konstantinos (2019). "Isaeus' On the Estate of Pyrrhus (Oration 3). Edited by Rosalia Hatzilambrou. (Newcastle upon Tyne, UK: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2018. Pp. 283. $119.95.)". Historian. 81 (4): 727–729. doi:10.1111/hisn.13286. ISSN 1540-6563. "an outstanding accomplishment containing reliable, informative, and thorough accounts of textual, linguistic, and stylistic matters, as well as the legal issues, the background, the protagonists, and the build-up of the case"
- Farrell Moran, Seán (2016). "The Impact of World War One on Limerick. By Tadhg Moloney. (Newcastle upon Tyne, England: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2013. Pp. xii, 209. $75.99.)". Historian. 78 (1): 166–167. doi:10.1111/hisn.12142. ISSN 1540-6563. "Although the author has done much homework, his thesis, as suggestive as it is, remains underdeveloped"
- Spicher, Michael (2019). "AAGAARD-MOGENSEN, LARS and JAN FORSEY, eds. On Taste: Aesthetic Exchanges. Newcastle upon Tyne, UK: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2019, 150 pp., 4 b&w illus., £58.99 cloth". The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism. 77 (3): 349–351. doi:10.1111/jaac.12655. ISSN 1540-6245. "Overall, [the book] offers insightful discussions about taste to help bring it back onto the fore. I would recommend anyone interested in aesthetics to read this collection as an entry point into recent thought about taste"
- McClain, Aleksandra (2016). "From West to East: Current Approaches to Medieval Archaeology by Scott D. Stull, ed. Newcastle upon Tyne: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2014. 275 pp". American Anthropologist. 118 (2): 457–458. doi:10.1111/aman.12571. ISSN 1548-1433. "Several papers, including the editor's own, offer strong, original scholarship [...] but a few are disappointingly underdeveloped in comparison", "while problems with individual papers mar the consistent academic quality of the volume, I nevertheless commend Stull on having the ambition to plan the conference and produce this book"
- Liu, Yi; Afzaal, Muhammad (2022). "100 Years of conference interpreting: A legacy. Edited by Kilian G. Seeber, Cambridge Scholars Publishing. Newcastle upon Tyne, 2021, Price: £64.99, 242 pp. ISBN: 1-5275-6719-2". International Journal of Applied Linguistics. 32 (2): 349–352. doi:10.1111/ijal.12406. ISSN 1473-4192. "this volume provides a novel and convincing reference in the field of conference interpreting, and is therefore a valuable read for interpreting students, trainers, researchers and other stakeholders"
- Wallis, Patrick (2021). "Andrea Caracausi, Matthew Davies, and Luca Mocarelli, eds., Between regulation and freedom: work and manufactures in European cities 14th–18th centuries (Cambridge: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2018. Pp. xiii+146. ISBN 1-5275-0638-X Hbk. £58.99)". The Economic History Review. 74 (1): 299–300. doi:10.1111/ehr.13059. ISSN 1468-0289. "the volume collectively makes a valuable contribution to our appreciation of the complexity and heterogeneity of economic regulation"
- Of these 8 reviews, 6 are entirely positive, and 2 offer criticisms. – Uanfala (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reviews are going to give a biased sample of CSP's output, because only the books that people found interesting enough to review will have any. XOR'easter (talk) 02:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Of course, as with any other reivews. But what's the relevance of that here? If someone wants to do a big analysis and look at the proportion of reviewed CSP books vs. the total published and then compare that with the same ratio for benchmark publishers, sure: that will be useful. But in the context of this discussion – where the baseline question is whether CSP books are unadulterated crap that should be automatically removed from articles – I think it was useful to point out that there were plenty of reviews of those books in the best journals and that most of those reviews were positive. – Uanfala (talk) 12:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reviews are going to give a biased sample of CSP's output, because only the books that people found interesting enough to review will have any. XOR'easter (talk) 02:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- CSP is a vanity press. Their model is to have authors write whatever they want, conduct no review, offer no little-to-no editing services, and then charges universities and random suckers for those books. They've repeatedly published fringe nonsense, (example, example), or straight up copies of Wikipedia content example). They are listed by the two main freely available sources on predatory nonsense, Beall's list (now maintained by someone who isn't Beall), and Flaky Journals. Their books are widely condemned in review, which specifically call out the practices of CSP (e.g. "the absence of an editorial board has clearly failed to guide the author in the preparation of his publication". Library Guides specifically call out CSP as a publisher to avoid [13]. Or entire book chapters, from ISBN 9783838211992. If CSP isn't a vanity press and a garbage tier publisher, no one is. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose a blanket removal, but recommend a "use with caution" guideline per WP:MREL. Some of the authors published by CSP are respectable academics in their fields with other publications from reliable publishers written by them. As such, WP:SPS's guideline seems like a good fit here. "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Further, some of the books have been reviewed in reliable secondary sources. So, I think each source needs to be scrutinized individually for reliability with particular attention given to the book's author and their background. Removing content on mass without taking the time to examine each source and its author is not the responsible way to handle this issue, and seems WP:POINTY.4meter4 (talk) 02:46, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket removal, recommend "use with caution". Various publication level rankings (Norwegian, Finnish) list the venue as an acceptable quality scientific publication venue, albeit with an imperfect history. This alone gives me much pause about a blanket ban. Above descriptions about the publishers being
predatory
also seems confusing, given that the venue does not appear to charge Article Publishing Charges based on their FAQ. As per the above descriptions re: the Beall's List entry (anonymous, added after Beall's involvement), I'm not terribly convinced by that argument either. Given further that WP:SPS allows for the use of pretty much anything from an established subject matter expert, a blanket removal seems unwarranted. That said, the spotty history clearly warrants a case-by-case review of any sources used. -Ljleppan (talk) 04:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC) - Comment In addition to what I wrote above, I'll note that this RFC fails WP:RFCNEUTRAL rather spectacularly. Ljleppan (talk) 04:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Cambridge Scholars Press is not someone I'd consider an acceptable academic publisher - so what that means is that I would try to avoid citing anything published by them, as I have no confidence that their peer review process has been sufficiently robust to detect material which has errors, is not accurate or which is fraudulent in nature (as evidenced by some of the material they have published, including material plagiarised from Wikipedia). I would also not use the company as a publishing house for my own work, because I cannot trust what other works may appear alongside our own, and obviously if I consider it to be problematic, people would question anything I publish there.
Books published by CSP primarily, from what I can see, are typically submitted via the CSP route for two reasons, firstly they're submitted there to satisfy funding requirements (as is the case with books and articles published via Wiley, Elsevier and others, of course) but they have a strong reputation in academic circles as a publisher of last resort - if you can't get a book into a more prestigious publishing house or journal series, then CSP will take it and it'll technically tick off a deliverable so you don't lose funding or have someone chasing you to return part of a grant. Secondly, almost all of us are vain and want to publish - for many fields, that involves doing an experiment or undertaking a project, generating data, processing that data and generating results, which are then discussed. That's the broad outline for a journal article. There are many fields where research doesn't work like that and a book is the logical outcome, particularly where your research is one contiguous body of work during a PhD or for a number of years post-doctorate, unfortunately for a number of people with such contiguous projects, their work will generally be of interest to a small number of people and publishing via an accepted academic publisher (Wiley or others) will not be possible (that isn't a comment on the value or importance of the work, just a reflection on what the large publishing houses will accept because it makes them money). I say this as it explains the peer review issues - if you can't get a conventional publisher interested in your book because of audience limitation issues, it's going to be very difficult to find reviewers who are capable of a proper peer review of your material, which risks absolute drivel making it onto the market. It's also worth noting, the presence of CSP material in university libraries is no indicator of their reliability - most university libraries will purchase material at the behest of students - I drop a request into our library every year or so for a new book either I would like to read, or which I think will benefit our students. I note a comment about CSP and the University of Cambridge Library - it's worth a reminder that the University of Cambridge Library is a deposit library and can receive at no cost any books published in the UK that it wishes - it does not necessarily mean the University of Cambridge Library or students from Cambridge have asked for/purchased CSP books.
I'd therefore have to agree with the "use with caution" suggestion - there will be a number of authors with CSP who have been forced to publish there by circumstance, and there will be little wrong with their work, but similarly, there's a lot of authors who will make use of CSP's tendency to accept anything with no real oversight, which would obviously preclude its use going unchecked. Nick (talk) 09:11, 9 July 2022 (UTC) - Never use. Reliable sources have a reputation for fact checking, accuracy, etc.; this publisher has a reputation as shite. No source from it can give confidence that WP:V is being satisfied. Anything worthy of inclusion will be covered in decent sources; use then instead. If not, the material will not be the kind of “accepted knowledge” Wikipedia must reflect. Alexbrn (talk) 09:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket removal, support replacing with better sources. I looked at a few random articles with references to CSP and I didn't see any problems requiring a purge. Tagging with {{bettersourceneeded}} would be a good idea. Alaexis¿question? 11:35, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Drive by tagging while keeping the sources in never works, it will just stay there forever, just ask @David Gerard:. Hemiauchenia (talk) 12:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion it's not a positive example. Alaexis¿question? 17:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Drive by tagging while keeping the sources in never works, it will just stay there forever, just ask @David Gerard:. Hemiauchenia (talk) 12:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Never use If there are clearly reliable sources supporting the text you are trying to source, use that. If there aren't any other than a CSP source you shouldn't be adding the text. One book from a dubious publisher isn't enough.
- Comment. I did what several folks insisted on and read the previous discussions. None of them established a consensus that CSP is unreliable; most of them weren't even really about CSP. Let's put a pin in that claim--CSP may be unreliable, but this is the first discussion where that question is squarely presented and proceeding as though that's already the case is not accurate. Mackensen (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- CSP can be a reliable source as demonstrated by reviews from the academic community, eg:
- "In sum, From West to East provides a compact, but very readable overview of approaches to medieval archaeology practised in North America." Kerr, Sarah (January 2016). "From West to East. Current Approaches to Medieval Archaeology". Medieval Archaeology. 60 (1): 185–185. doi:10.1080/00766097.2016.1147856.
- "the volume is a worthwhile read and valuable resource that paves the way to refine the studies on this, without doubt, an exceedingly promising multidisciplinary topic." Basik, Sergei (19 October 2020). "Naming, identity and tourism: edited by Luisa Caiazzo, Richard Coates and Maoz Azaryahu, Newcastle upon Tyne, Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2020, 233 pp., ₤ 61.99 (hardcover), ISBN 978-1-5275-4286-0". Scandinavian Journal of Hospitality and Tourism. 20 (5): 540–542. doi:10.1080/15022250.2020.1853603.
- "Overall, this is an interesting take on a fairly well-covered topic. It brings to light some hitherto neglected sources and provides some useful insights" Doney, Jonathan (4 March 2022). "For God and country: Butler's 1944 Education Act, by Elizabeth 'Libi' Sundermann: Elizabeth 'Libi' Sundermann, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2015, xii + 151 pp., £41.99 (hardback), ISBN 978-1-44-388383-2". History of Education. 51 (2): 304–306. doi:10.1080/0046760X.2020.1825834.,
- "the book serves as a door opener to the ceramic traditions of Europe and opens up further reading due to interesting articles as well as rich reference lists" Eigeland, Lotte; Solheim, Steinar (10 September 2010). "Dragos Gheorghiu (ed.): Early Farmers, Late Foragers, and Ceramic Traditions: On the Beginning of Pottery in the Near East and Europe". Norwegian Archaeological Review. 43 (1): 86–89. doi:10.1080/00293651003798846.
- Richard Nevell (talk) 16:24, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, it can be reliable. Much like vixra or the Daily Mail can be reliable. However, when we don't have these positives reviews, CSP books are not reliable. That's no different than any other vanity presses out there. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do we have a reliable source that describes CSP as a vanity press? Richard Nevell (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- See book chapters, from ISBN 9783838211992. They don't explicitly list CSP as a vanity press, but press much say you should only publish with them if you're comfortable publishing in a vanity press. Alternatively, this library guide, which goes further and labels them predatory. Again, the model of CSP is to publish pretty much anything they can with little regards to what it is they publish. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:39, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Headbomb, the chapter you've linked has two things to say about CSP: 1) that publishing there isn't going to earn you the respect of fellow academics, and 2) that vanity presses have lower academic prestige than the likes of CSP. I really don't know how that text made you conclude that CSP are described there as a vanity press, when in fact the opposite is the case. The library guide you link only quotes an email sent by CSP as an example of a "predatory conference letter" without giving further commentary. That's a bit odd to begin with (the email is clearly soliciting book proposals, not advertising conferences), but the characterisation as predatory is incorrect. Yes, CSP have been criticised for their unselective solicitation emails (a practice in common with actual predatory publishers), but they themselves are not predatory (because they don't charge authors), that much I thought had already been established in this discussion. – Uanfala (talk) 00:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Predatory encompasses a spectrum of terrible practices. Spamming emails is one of them, because they're preying on the young and foolish to submit their work for free, so Cambridge can exploit these people and make money off their back. They're a print-on-demand vanity press. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Headbomb, the chapter you've linked has two things to say about CSP: 1) that publishing there isn't going to earn you the respect of fellow academics, and 2) that vanity presses have lower academic prestige than the likes of CSP. I really don't know how that text made you conclude that CSP are described there as a vanity press, when in fact the opposite is the case. The library guide you link only quotes an email sent by CSP as an example of a "predatory conference letter" without giving further commentary. That's a bit odd to begin with (the email is clearly soliciting book proposals, not advertising conferences), but the characterisation as predatory is incorrect. Yes, CSP have been criticised for their unselective solicitation emails (a practice in common with actual predatory publishers), but they themselves are not predatory (because they don't charge authors), that much I thought had already been established in this discussion. – Uanfala (talk) 00:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- In that case I would recommend not pushing beyond the bounds of what reliable sources say. On the subject of whether CSP is predatory this article in Science as Culture is an interesting read. My own view is that the situation is not as black and white as you are presenting it. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's a damning picture of CSP. High-volume with little-to no review output to maximize profits, spamming campaigns (but it's nice, personalized spam!), specifically reaching out to people who wouldn't be able to publish fringe viewpoints anywhere else. These all the characteristics of a well-organized vanity press. It's only better than Lambert because CSP is better organized and better at PR. Note that the article specifically is less concerned "... judging the quality of the monographs Lambert and CSP were publishing than in their negotiation of existing credibility economies, with the elite university presses at their apex". Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
In one instance an academic listed on a CSP editorial board replied to insist that she did not know she was listed as an editor.
Whoops. XOR'easter (talk) 01:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)- In my experience they're not even that careful with their personalised spam. I once received an unsolicited email from them in which they got both my first name and employer wrong, quite the howler as my email address at the time was firstname.j.lastname@institute.com, asking me to contribute something quite outside my area. They're sloppy, period. I have tried over the years to defend this encyclopedia from those who want to turn it into viXra with a side of TVTropes, but I think I'm done. I have other things I want to be doing and it no longer seems worth the effort, especially seeing a few editors who really ought to know better defending this manipulative garbage. If that's how it's going to be then I'm outta here. Reyk YO! 01:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Reyk: I think most editors here harbor similar feelings towards CSP and their likes as you do. At least speaking for myself, I have no inclination whatsoever to defend CSP or their unethical practices. I just don't think immorality is inherited, so to speak: it's not because some scholars who-knows-for-what-reason have published there that their work should automatically be discarded and ignored. More importantly for Wikipedia, that work may be of very high quality, and there are certainly some cases where it would constitute a major loss not to cite it. We need to look to reliability as such first, not morality. I just hope that even if you don't agree, you don't let this drive you away. We are by and large on the same side here. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's a damning picture of CSP. High-volume with little-to no review output to maximize profits, spamming campaigns (but it's nice, personalized spam!), specifically reaching out to people who wouldn't be able to publish fringe viewpoints anywhere else. These all the characteristics of a well-organized vanity press. It's only better than Lambert because CSP is better organized and better at PR. Note that the article specifically is less concerned "... judging the quality of the monographs Lambert and CSP were publishing than in their negotiation of existing credibility economies, with the elite university presses at their apex". Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- See book chapters, from ISBN 9783838211992. They don't explicitly list CSP as a vanity press, but press much say you should only publish with them if you're comfortable publishing in a vanity press. Alternatively, this library guide, which goes further and labels them predatory. Again, the model of CSP is to publish pretty much anything they can with little regards to what it is they publish. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:39, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do we have a reliable source that describes CSP as a vanity press? Richard Nevell (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, it can be reliable. Much like vixra or the Daily Mail can be reliable. However, when we don't have these positives reviews, CSP books are not reliable. That's no different than any other vanity presses out there. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Question: why not treat as self-published? I've occasionally come over this publisher when following citations and bibliographies in high-quality sources, and my impression is that competent scholars do sometimes publish there. For example, this is mainly authored by top scholars, this is also good quality, and this contains contributions by absolute top scholars like G. E. R. Lloyd, as well as lesser stars like Helen King or Mario Vegetti, who are still scholars of the highest rank. This is not like a news source where authors are anonymous: apart from the publisher, there is also the scholar and their academic reputation to take into account. It's also probably not a coincidence that I just named three edited volumes: these by definition have editorial oversight. Use with caution, certainly, but outright banning seems like a bad idea. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Add as this seems to be a separate issue: also oppose blanket or semi-automated removal, per the arguments of Visviva and No such user below. It's tempting to just remove everything published by a company whose practices are unethical, but when one is not engaging with the content the reference is supposed to verify, it's far too easy to break text-source integrity, and it's too difficult to fully anticipate other negative consequences which may not outweigh the advantage gained by removing an unethical publisher. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- No one is proposing outright banning. Like with any other vanity press, when a CSP book is accompanied by a positive review, it can be used as a reliable SPS source. Absent of those, CSP books are inadequate as sources. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, a positive review would be a very good indication that a SPS or equivalent is reliable. But why require it? In my experience, the status of the scholar in their field is a far more important indicator for reliability than the reputation of the publisher. On the other hand, not every high-quality volume gets reviewed. For example, of the three books I mentioned above, I found (very) positive reviews for the first two ([15] for [16] and [17] for [18]), but for the third one –arguably the one with the best scholars– I did not find a review. Should we treat a book chapter by someone like G. E. R. Lloyd (please have a look at where he usually publishes) as unreliable because it has a bad publisher and there happens to be no review? I at least think we shouldn't. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:05, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because vanity presses are crap and are by definition not reliable (which is different than being guaranted to be wrong). It's the same if a 'good' scholar publishes in predatory journal. They've dodged the reviewing process, and they don't get a free pass. See WP:VANPRED#Use in the real world vs use on Wikipedia. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- I find it by no means credible that the three volumes I cited above were dodging peer-review. As edited volumes, they also enjoyed at least some form of editorial oversight. This is simply not vanity publishing: all of the scholars involved could easily have published elsewhere, and have in fact done so often (again, see here). The positive reviews also indicate that. This all rather shows that CSP cannot be treated as predatory without a case-by-case evaluation. Speaking of evaluation, the essay you're citing is using self-published primary sources to prove a point that editors can't evaluate any self-published sources without engaging in original research... But here on this noticeboard we are going to evaluate (secondary) sources, and as many have pointed out above, the publisher is only one factor in the equation. As someone also said above, we should avoid putting the cart before the horse. Let's first see whether CPS is a vanity press, shall we? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because vanity presses are crap and are by definition not reliable (which is different than being guaranted to be wrong). It's the same if a 'good' scholar publishes in predatory journal. They've dodged the reviewing process, and they don't get a free pass. See WP:VANPRED#Use in the real world vs use on Wikipedia. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, a positive review would be a very good indication that a SPS or equivalent is reliable. But why require it? In my experience, the status of the scholar in their field is a far more important indicator for reliability than the reputation of the publisher. On the other hand, not every high-quality volume gets reviewed. For example, of the three books I mentioned above, I found (very) positive reviews for the first two ([15] for [16] and [17] for [18]), but for the third one –arguably the one with the best scholars– I did not find a review. Should we treat a book chapter by someone like G. E. R. Lloyd (please have a look at where he usually publishes) as unreliable because it has a bad publisher and there happens to be no review? I at least think we shouldn't. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 00:05, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket removal. I don't see CSB as being in anyway different from self-published sources, which
may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications
. The discussion has proven that CSB occasionally publishes works that qualify as reliable sources either because written by well-reputed academics or because accepted as valuable scientific contributions by the academic community; there's no reason for removing them for the sole reason that they were published by CSB. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC) - Oppose blanket removal - I'm not convinced that this publisher is as some have claimed in blanket statements relative to predatory, unreliable, etc. It would be wonderful if all publishers had experts in every field of academia comprising their editorial boards, and while we strive for RS, it's rather ironic that WP itself is considered an unreliable source - in part, because of perceived systemic biases. CSB states on their about page:
We are proud of our reputation for author satisfaction. The publishing process should be a rewarding experience. There is no cost to our authors/editors to publish. We offer complimentary copies, a substantial author discount, and a generous royalty scheme.
Atsme 💬 📧 15:45, 10 July 2022 (UTC) - Oppose blanket removal The sources given above seem to be quite clear in showing that CSP does publish valuable academic books (even if it's despite themselves, rather than because of themselves). And the repeated attempts above to claim them as a vanity publisher and then, when that statement is refuted by actual sources directly saying they're not as bad as that, the original people making the vanity claim then not responding or addressing those sources makes said original claimants look like they're purposefully trying to avoid engaging with the subject and are on the verge of lying. Clearly, this is not a vanity publisher, it is not a predatory publisher, it's open publishing blatantly just makes it fall under self-published sources and any books from it should be treated as such around the importance of the author. SilverserenC 17:08, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose removal to echo User:Alaexis above. I agree that {{better source needed}} should be added instead of removal with
|reason=
"Cambridge Scholars is considered unreliable per WP:RSN" or something similar. To address the counterarguments: regardless of whether the page editors address the tag in a timely manner or not, it's there for the reader to see if they are verifying content. Even though it appears that Headbomb is only removing Cambridge Scholars material in multi-sourced contexts, that is still problematic if the remainirial is not checked that it is still verified in the remaining source, and there is no tag like {{please verify that I didn't remove something important because I'm too busy to do it myself}} Sorry to editorialize but that does reflect my interpretation sometimes.) I don't get the edit-warring either -- One thing this page teaches is that the reliability of sources needs to be interpreted in context, so if the editors who have been maintaining a page for months disagree with your agnostic source removal, maybe they have a reason, and picking a fight over an article you haven't read maybe isn't the most constructive use of everyone's time. Of course that is an entirely separate issue from whether Cambridge Scholars should have different considerations as far as reliability, but apparently we're trying to have both conversations at once here. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC) - Treat as self-published. Which in most cases should mean removal as unreliable, but we can use it if we can determine that the author is an established subject-matter expert. Why an established subject-matter expert would be using such a publisher, rather than just directly self-publishing if self-publishing is what they want, is another question, but not one we need to answer here. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:45, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Treat as self-published and go ahead with blanket removal, restoring on a case-by-case basis when an argument can be made to do so. {{better source needed}} tags hang around and don't get resolved until somebody pushes. XOR'easter (talk) 00:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Other relevant past discussions: a failed Featured Article nomination where CSP was called
a quite dodgy publisher that is just this side of self-publishing
; a deletion debate where the closer wrote that theyave an extremely poor reputation for fact checking and editorial oversight and are on some versions of Beall's List so this source is marginal at best.
In this discussion, which also ended in a delete, the possibility was raised that they've madesome sort of bulk e-book deal for academic libraries
which ends up boosting their WorldCat holdings numbers. XOR'easter (talk) 01:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Other relevant past discussions: a failed Featured Article nomination where CSP was called
- Oppose blanket removal, but "use with caution" sounds about right, based on the edifying discussions above. Regarding removals, with respect to the edits that led to this RFC, I think it's worth noting that even when multiple citations appear after a statement, it can't be assumed that all of them support all of the statement. There are all sorts of common scenarios where this isn't the case -- classic citation overkill where it may turn out that none of the sources cited fully support the statement, or where only one of them turns out to; a compound sentence where the sources each support different parts of the sentence; a source added by a well-intentioned editor to support their edit but without removing the previous source that no longer supports the sentence; etc. (None of those are best practices, but they happen all the time.) Ultimately questions like "is this citation load-bearing? can it be relied on in this particular context for this particular statement? even if it is reliable and load-bearing, can we replace it with something better?" can only be addressed by engaging in depth with the sources and subject matter of that specific article. There are no rule-based shortcuts. -- Visviva (talk) 02:27, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Treat as self-published. I came here following a brief edit-war with Headbomb on Othonoi. [19] is probably a typical case: there's a citation to a Greek-language journal accompanied by a citation to an English-language book published in CSP by the same authors, conveniently available on GBooks and easy to verify. Blanket removal of CSP books written by scholarly authors is disruptive, and publisher is only one factor to consider the source's reliability. No such user (talk) 10:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose automated removal, treat as self-published although I'm a bit late in "voting", due to the number of concerns raised by other editors, it is clear to me that any automated removal does not consitute due diligence. Even removing CSP sources where another source is provided seems unneccessary - variations on "it's garbage", with little to back up such strong language, are not enough to justify any contentious action on Wikipedia. CSP is not unreliable per se, arguments for which have been expounded at length above. Additionally, due to the changing (and possibly improving) situation with regard to editorial practices, deprecation or any blanket statement of unreliability requires stronger and more recent evidence than has been provided. Toadspike (talk) 16:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Support removal and prohibit it, unequivocally useless and unreliable Totally agree with above users that it is vanity press. Have seen multiple promotional junk about Indian cults from this publisher on Wikipedia.--Venkat TL (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Reliability of FANDOM News Stories
FANDOM's news stories are distinct from its fan wikis, which are written by anonymous contributors. These stories are attributed to actual FANDOM employees who go under their real names, and are hosted on the fandom.com site unlike fandom.com subdomains, which host wikis. Are these articles reliable? VORTEX3427 (Talk!) 07:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- While not WP:USERGENERATED like the rest of fandom, I would treat it like a blog of no particular reputation. I'm also not seeing any indication that they have any editorial controls, so they're not really usable for anything unless the author satisfies the requirements to be cited as a WP:SPS. --Aquillion (talk) 02:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Salon.com let misinformation stand for over a year
See CNN's fact-check on the matter: Fact check: Liberal website changes headline that falsely said DeSantis signed a bill that forces students to register their political views:
The liberal website Salon has changed a headline that had falsely said a bill signed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis forces Florida's students and professors to register their political views with the state... Salon published the headline in June 2021. Its revision on Wednesday, more than a year later, came after the article went viral... Salon executive editor Andrew O'Hehir said in a Thursday email that while another Salon editor had defended the initial headline back in 2021, the publication recently took another look and concluded that the headline "conveyed a misleading impression of what the Florida law actually said, and did not live up to our editorial standards."
Note that there is no new information that has come out about this matter, they changed their article only because their misinformation happened to go viral recently. Not even 2 days after the original article came out, PolitiFact put out a fact check debunking the claim: New Florida law doesn't require university students, faculty and staff to register political views. Despite their article being debunked by fact checkers almost as soon as it was published, they decided to let it stand completely untouched for more than a year, altering it only when enough outrage was drummed up about it the next year. Is a "no consensus" RSP entry really appropriate for a publication whose editors appear to find it acceptable to publish information that is known to be verifiably false? Endwise (talk) 08:08, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Was the problem only with the headline (which are not considered a reliable source per WP:HEADLINES)? If you suggest to downgrade it to unreliable, I think more evidence of misinformation is needed. Alaexis¿question? 08:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, headlines are headlines. We wouldn't have downgraded the status of the Boston Globe for Mush from the Wimp. XOR'easter (talk) 00:32, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Extended content
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- This is why we don't consider headlines to be usable. Unless there was an issue with the article itself then theres nothing for us to do here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
jagatgururampalji.org
Source: any article from jagatgururampalji.org
I was asked to discuss this before asking the site to be added to blocklist.
- jagatgururampalji.org: Linksearch en (https) (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
Majority of links from this site are written in a way to attract readers to Rampal's religious works. The articles usually follow a pattern. The users change or add a reference from this site (such as father's day or world tobacco day), the article on the site gives a brief information about that but somehow ends up directing readers to religious practice. For example, an article for Autism day gives a brief definition of the word but ends up claiming that it can be cured with 'this' religious practice. JamesJohn82 (talk · contribs) was blocked because he was spamming this site.
I haven't found a single article that can be characterised as a good refernece. All of them end up promoting their saint at the end of the article.
Some examples:
In text: With the birth anniversary of one of the renowned litterateurs Rabindranath Tagore, let us make ourselves aware about the biggest literature of True Spiritual Knowledge or Tatvgyan.... and then talking about their saint.
https://news.jagatgururampalji.org/26-11-mumbai-terrorist-attack/
In text: It is grave ignorance to fight on any issue in the world. Everything is imperishable. Human birth will be fruitful if a person performs the True Devotion of the Absolute Supreme God Kabir Saheb and ensures its place in the Eternal Abode..... and then talking about their saint.
https://news.jagatgururampalji.org/rajiv-gandhi-assassination-death/
In text: The pious soul tried to do his level best for humanity, but he did not find an enlightened saint who could have guided him for the right human life’s purpose. There are many unfortunate pious souls without achieving the right spiritual guide..... and then talking about their saint.
These are just three articles. Every single article on this site links the topic with the saint's teachings. The last one is claiming that Rajiv Gandhi had no one to guide him to his life's purpose. In my opinion, it is offensive to use an article about his death to make this claim. Kenm v2 (talk) 09:36, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
MM News
Opinions sought on https://mmnews.tv, a Pakistani news website. Can't find an editorial policy on their website, just a statement at the left side of the footer reading "MM News is a subsidiary of the MM Group of Companies. It was established in 2019 with the aim of providing people of Pakistan access to unbiased information." The only MM Group of Companies I can find online for Pakistan is https://mmgoc.com.pk, which deals in agriculture and shipping. Some of the stories appear to be copied from other Pakistani news websites. The "shows" links at the right link to their YouTube channel, which has 71k subscribers. Is MM News a reliable source? Storchy (talk) 17:00, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- They don't get a lot of secondary coverage from my personal google results. Their top youtube vids are lighthearted animal news. At least one photo of theirs was appropriated later for a hoax. A July 2 story on Imran Khan (hot-button political stuff) is completely old-school journalism: Five Ws, the whole article is alternating grafs of direct-indirect quotes – India Today certainly doesn't do that from what I've seen (not trying to fling dirt, just saying it's not some subcontinent 'thing'). They have a "Fake News Alert" section of their site (which actually appears to select from other sections rather than being an exclusive section) – I'm not up on Pakistan's goings-on so I have no idea what some of these briefs are about, but some are straightforward – "APML rubbishes news about Musharraf’s death" looks like a clickbait headline, but it's another relatively old-school article about the APML reporting the Musharraf was dead, then saying they got it wrong and screwing up more facts, then eventually getting it right. All easily verifiable stuff without any theorizing.
- Their "Investigations" section is where things get interesting. In a story alleging embezzlement the sources are pretty nonspecific (as often with a news outlet investigation) Even though the subhead/lead uses the phrase "embezzled in the name of ghost employees" the article body is again completely factual with no embellishment. That said, in the first body graf you have to take it at their word that their financial assessment is correctly presented – they don't specify if they researched them themselves through say financial documents or if it comes from the reports and interviews which are well-attributed in the following grafs. It's just one of things that could have been a copy editor's switch of graf order that left attribution hanging, or relatively uncontroversial or easily-verifiable details that would be better supported later, or an actual reporting error.
- I don't want to be biased by how utterly refreshing it is to see old-school reporting. That said, their old-school articles do "make mistakes" in minor presentation from how I've been taught, but it could just be style (one indirect quote seemed to be hanging precariously loose though).
- Having no company or editorial transparency from where I can access means I can't evaluate it on those merits. It is also a quite new outlet (est. 2019) so a lot of what they are has had no chance to be "established" yet. That more than anything makes anything from the "Investigations" section, as professional as it seems, require in-line attribution to the outlet. Otherwise I'm very impressed with how much they seem to commit to their stated "aim of providing people of Pakistan access to unbiased information", especially in Pakistan with a press freedom rank of 157 (down in 2022) and generally little competition in terms of good outlets. So given a place with few good RS to choose from, I'd say consider it locally reliable in terms of the news section and require direct attribution for investigations, until new evidence emerges. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
RfC: Cuepoint Medium publication reliability
There has been some disagreement over whether the Medium music publication Cuepoint, which is edited by Jonathan Shecter, directly owned by (the platform) Medium itself, and routinely featured a column by longtime music journalist Robert Christgau, is considered a reliable source. This was most recently raised at Wikipedia:Featured and good topic candidates/1989 (Taylor Swift album)/addition1. This publication does not have an entry at WP:RSMUSIC nor RSP. The publication appears to have gone dormant in 2016 but is routinely used in Taylor Swift related articles.
Is Cuepoint a reliable source for music industry coverage?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated
TheSandDoctor Talk 17:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Survey (Cuepoint)
- Optoin 2. Reasoning below. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2: usability depends on the writer (and the fact/opinion being cited). The column by Christgau is definitely a reliable source. For other authors, take a look at their other writing background (e.g. on MuckRack). If they're even just a little-known reviewer who has written for sources that would be reliable for the information you're trying to cite, I'd take it as reliable. That Shecter edits Cuepoint counts for something. — Bilorv (talk) 11:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion (Cuepoint)
- I believe Cuepoint can be used sparsely. Robert Christgau is a very regarded music journalist, so basically, anything he says goes. So if they have an article written by someone that has a journalism degree and/or has written for other publications it will be fine to use. However, if none of these conditions are met the article is better not used, as Medium is deemed as an unreliable source and Cupoint belongs to it. However, some pieces are written by musicians, such as Mark Ronson, which seem fine, at first glance, to use as he discusses his personal experience with George Michael, but it shouldn't be used to give a certain song(s) a review. It should be used like Sound on Sound is used and other magazines alike. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- @MarioSoulTruthFan: Thank you for your explanation. Just to clarify, "Medium is deemed as an unreliable source" because it can be used to publish your own blog (etc). The difference here though is that this publication on medium had reputable editorial control and appears to fall outside of the WP:MEDIUM RSP entry's coverage area. It is "self-published" in the same (philosophical) way that The New York Times or Rolling Stone are -- it simply isn't the same thing as the Medium entry's coverage. TheSandDoctor Talk 18:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I forgot to add this in but it is a key point that just dawned on me. An analogy here is how WordPress is considered unreliable but sites running WordPress can be (i.e. Variety, Global News, and Time). WordPress -- or Medium in this case -- is just the platform. TheSandDoctor Talk 18:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I see. But is also deemed as unreliable as it is a mirror source, so it copies from other sources and publishes those articles as if they were their originals. Nevertheless, the other conditions are still the same. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- @MarioSoulTruthFan: I am confused. What is considered a mirror source? Where did you see that/get that from? I don’t see that listed at the RSP entries for either WordPress or Medium? TheSandDoctor (mobile) (talk) 21:19, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm saying it is a mirror website, it copies articles from other websites. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 21:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- @MarioSoulTruthFan: I am confused. What is considered a mirror source? Where did you see that/get that from? I don’t see that listed at the RSP entries for either WordPress or Medium? TheSandDoctor (mobile) (talk) 21:19, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I see. But is also deemed as unreliable as it is a mirror source, so it copies from other sources and publishes those articles as if they were their originals. Nevertheless, the other conditions are still the same. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 19:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- I forgot to add this in but it is a key point that just dawned on me. An analogy here is how WordPress is considered unreliable but sites running WordPress can be (i.e. Variety, Global News, and Time). WordPress -- or Medium in this case -- is just the platform. TheSandDoctor Talk 18:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- @MarioSoulTruthFan: Thank you for your explanation. Just to clarify, "Medium is deemed as an unreliable source" because it can be used to publish your own blog (etc). The difference here though is that this publication on medium had reputable editorial control and appears to fall outside of the WP:MEDIUM RSP entry's coverage area. It is "self-published" in the same (philosophical) way that The New York Times or Rolling Stone are -- it simply isn't the same thing as the Medium entry's coverage. TheSandDoctor Talk 18:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Like all sources...WP:CONTEXTMATTERS - and they do have some expert authors writing material, but keep the following in mind: their website:
We’re an open platform where over 100 million readers come to find insightful and dynamic thinking. Here, expert and undiscovered voices alike dive into the heart of any topic and bring new ideas to the surface. Our purpose is to spread these ideas and deepen understanding of the world.
They are as much a RS as is WP. Atsme 💬 📧 03:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Highly recommended: User:Headbomb/unreliable and User:SuperHamster/CiteUnseen.js. You may not have to come here as often. Atsme 💬 📧 03:52, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: Again, these are two different things as I've already explained. This is for the Cuepoint publication that happens to be on the website Medium (see my above comments) but has reputable editorial control etc. as already described; this is not for the entirety of Medium and is a very specific question/scope. This essentially makes the website page you linked to moot/not relevant. I am also aware of Headbomb's script and use it, but I came here with this RfC because others had raised a point worth considering and isn't covered by Headbomb's script per se; this was also filed for the benefit of resolving a dispute that was ongoing (to which I was not an involved party). It doesn't really matter to me which way this goes, I just don't like seeing things misunderstood in the backstory and question being asked (that I thought was extremely straightforward) and work to get us all on the same page. TheSandDoctor Talk 05:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Understood, but please consider the following:
To contribute, please email your Medium “draft link” or published piece to our EIC: shecky@cuepointmusic.com
. Shecky is also the Director of Programming for the Wynn in Las Vegas. Cuepoint EIC is not his dedicated position in life. Look at the long list of contributors on their about page, and compare their writers and format to say...Mojo, Rolling Stone, or Sports Illustrated for example. Frankly, the difference between Cuepoint and the overall Medium site is minimal. A group of Wikipedia editors, a few with some expert credentials or experience in a particular market niche could create a standalone website for their area of interest in much the same way using WP articles to launch it, solicit the contributions of WP editors at the expert level. Would that make it an unquestionable RS? Do you consider the way Cuepoint operates to equal the editorial control of the NYTimes, Time Magazine, a scholarly review, an academic paper or book published by an expert on a particular topic? What is an expert? I think the position I stated above covers my position well because I tend to be more of a skeptic. Oh, and I apologize for not being more clear as to my intentions for including those scripts as they were meant to be for the benefit of anyone who may not be aware of them. Atsme 💬 📧 13:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)- Thank you for clarifying your position and re the scripts comment. I don't dispute your viewpoint, but will just note that a publication asking for pitches isn't that unusual; The Verge does it, as does even The New York Times (both listed as generally reliable at RSP). TheSandDoctor Talk 02:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Understood, but please consider the following:
- Highly recommended: User:Headbomb/unreliable and User:SuperHamster/CiteUnseen.js. You may not have to come here as often. Atsme 💬 📧 03:52, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Chartmasters.org
There is a consensus that chartmasters.org is not considered a reliable source for record sales, hence it should be avoided. However, I've recently noted that there are multiple reliable sources like Wall Street Journal 1,2 Newyorker 3, Vulture 4, and Soundsblog (a supplement to Italian newspaper blogo) 5 citing the founder of chartmasters.org Guillaume Vieira as a primary source for these articles’ sales estimates. Some of these articles claim Guillaume Vieira is the greatest chart expert in the world as well. What should we do on these occasions? Should we eliminate all the articles citing the founder of chartmasters.org on the ground of the previous consensus, or is it time to review our previous consensus on chartmasters? TheWikiholic (talk) 13:43, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Attorney statements published in WP:RS
I was referred here by the help desk. I'm currently involved in an article about a current event where an attorney for the deceased is making assertions about the details of the event. These assertions are being published in WP:RS. Some contributors are insisting that the attorneys assertions be included as long as they are not in the Wikipedia voice and attributed to the attorney, while others are contending that because the attorney didn't witness the event or have access to any new information their assertions cannot be verified and should not be included. I'm aware of WP:RS and WP:VNT I'm wondering if there are other relevant policies in this area since I expect this is something that comes up frequently. WP:NEWSOPED comes to mind but in this case the third party is not a news source.
I'm not asking for anyone to get involved in the specific content dispute (to which I am intentionally not referring) just looking for guidance on other relevant policies in this area.
Thanks for your time and consideration. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is wp:blp means we have to be careful with accusations. So without knowing the details it's hard to say. But wp:v is rather clear, just because something can be verified does not mean it has to be included. Now you are correct, if an RS quotes someone it is an RS for that quote (as long as it is attributed). But issues related to RS status (such as wp:undue may affect its ability to be used.
- So this is not really an RS question. Slatersteven (talk) 16:27, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks Slatersteven. Without submitting an RFC on the subject, is there a more appropriate place to ask? --LaserLegs (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- You might try over an the Undue talk page, or WP:NPOVN, but in truth an RFC might be better. Slatersteven (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Slatersteven. Laserlegs, I think it would have been better to alert other editors on that article's talk page and start a discussion here with specifics and/or start an RFC. I believe you that you were acting in good faith but I don't think anything productive can come of hypotheticals that are designed to represent realia. If you're in a dispute then you probably aren't capable of framing this question in a way that represents it objectively. Also if you do it this way you're heading toward unnecessary strife because no one else will have read the policies you're referred to, which might work to embarrass other editors but best practice would be trying to figure this out with them and moving forward together, which is impossible if you only ask for yourself and intentionally prevent other editors from sharing in your answers. GordonGlottal (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- You might try over an the Undue talk page, or WP:NPOVN, but in truth an RFC might be better. Slatersteven (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks Slatersteven. Without submitting an RFC on the subject, is there a more appropriate place to ask? --LaserLegs (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
How do we reduce the use of unreliable sources on Wikipedia?
If you have a very big watchlist, then you're bound to see from time to time editors running AWB tasks to remove hundreds, or sometimes thousands, of citations to one or another source that has been deemed predatory or "vanity". For reasons that I imagine should be obvious to most watchers of this page, this practice has been disruptive.
Still, we need a way to keep the use of poor sourcing at low levels in the long term and avoid situations where one or two editors end up feeling like they're alone in the battle. Instead of reactively removing existing references, we could proactively try to discourage their use at the point of initial addition. Yes, that's what the blacklist does, but it doesn't work for the vast grey area of sources that are often subpar though not bad enough to be simply banned. It also occasionally encourages deceit (I've seen people leaving out the url of a predatory publisher so that they can pass the edit filter, resulting in a citation to what looks like an acceptable physical journal).
There's another way. You've noticed how these days you get a popup warning whenever you try to insert a link to a disambiguation page? Can't we have a similar warning system for sources? The popup can say "You seem to have just inserted a citation to a publication in X. X is presumed to be a predatory publisher, so should almost never be used". Or something like "X is not as reliable as it seems as it doesn't feature peer review". Or any number of similar warnings depending on the publication in question. That's obviously not going to be a silver bullet, but it should be able to make a difference. Right? – Uanfala (talk) 21:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- What you've just basically described is the WP:DEPRECATION system. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:31, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- Ah! I should have known better than to traipse into one of the best-developed corners of Wikipedia and start re-inventing the wheel. But still, it seems like there could an intermediate level of warnings. With the deprecation system, it's automatic reversion for new editors and warnings on save for established ones. If we could have a "middle tier", where there's no automated actions and the warning comes at the point when text is added in the edit window (rather than during the final save), just as it's done for the new dab notifications... – Uanfala (talk) 11:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are supposed to use the best sources available and summarize what they say. Unfortunately, there are tendentious editors who decide what an article should say, then search for sources to support it. It doesn't matter what rules there are, so long as some editors want to write articles in violation of weight and rs, we will see all kinds of obscure sources used. TFD (talk) 21:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is something I've thought about in the past; it is true but also slightly tricky (which is why it has traditionally been so hard to deal with WP:TEND editing in politically-charged topics.) If we're talking about a relatively uncontroversial topic, it's expected that an editor will read the page and edit it using the knowledge in their head as a starting point; someone with some general knowledge of history, say, might come across something and say "wait, that looks wrong" or "hold up, something important is omitted here". Then they search for sources based on the knowledge of the domain, find them, and fix the problem - that's how editing is supposed to work. Under almost all circumstances, that basic internal knowledge is what pings an editor to sit up and pour over sources to make an addition or correction. But when it comes to politics, or other controversial areas, editors are going to substantially disagree over the underlying facts, so the things that make them ping and say "wait, something is wrong or missing here" are going to drastically diverge and can potentially introduce bias. WP:RS is particularly important in those areas because forcing people to stick to the best sources helps correct for the biases introduced by their pre-existing knowledge; but the issue is that "have some general idea of what the article should say, then search for sources to support it" is how most editing works in practice. And the other type of common editing, "have a source which you add to the article and add stuff from because you think it's significant and important", isn't immune to the same sort of bias stemming from what sorts of sources you read and what things from them make you sit up and say "I should add this to Wikipedia!" It isn't realistically possible for every editor to approach every article they edit by reading every part of every available high-quality source, so we need to rely on our knowledge of the domain to direct our source-searches and edits to some extent. (It is also why I think it is important to be willing to remove things that are being given WP:UNDUE weight, which is another way that bias in source-searches can express itself.) --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- I largely agree with this. It's part of the dark side of Wikipedia: most edits will always be tendentious in nature, and consequently the main activity of constructive editors will always be to watch out for such edits and to revert or amend them where appropriate. That's what makes it all work; we're all janitors here. Just yesterday my partner chided me for putting so much time in something as depressing as that. I think they may be right. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:57, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is something I've thought about in the past; it is true but also slightly tricky (which is why it has traditionally been so hard to deal with WP:TEND editing in politically-charged topics.) If we're talking about a relatively uncontroversial topic, it's expected that an editor will read the page and edit it using the knowledge in their head as a starting point; someone with some general knowledge of history, say, might come across something and say "wait, that looks wrong" or "hold up, something important is omitted here". Then they search for sources based on the knowledge of the domain, find them, and fix the problem - that's how editing is supposed to work. Under almost all circumstances, that basic internal knowledge is what pings an editor to sit up and pour over sources to make an addition or correction. But when it comes to politics, or other controversial areas, editors are going to substantially disagree over the underlying facts, so the things that make them ping and say "wait, something is wrong or missing here" are going to drastically diverge and can potentially introduce bias. WP:RS is particularly important in those areas because forcing people to stick to the best sources helps correct for the biases introduced by their pre-existing knowledge; but the issue is that "have some general idea of what the article should say, then search for sources to support it" is how most editing works in practice. And the other type of common editing, "have a source which you add to the article and add stuff from because you think it's significant and important", isn't immune to the same sort of bias stemming from what sorts of sources you read and what things from them make you sit up and say "I should add this to Wikipedia!" It isn't realistically possible for every editor to approach every article they edit by reading every part of every available high-quality source, so we need to rely on our knowledge of the domain to direct our source-searches and edits to some extent. (It is also why I think it is important to be willing to remove things that are being given WP:UNDUE weight, which is another way that bias in source-searches can express itself.) --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- When I clean citations I get that exact warning at least for book publishers. Typically I tag with {{bcn}} in such cases, or something else if it's an endnote ref, because in those kinds of articles it's often difficult to tell which material is attributed to which source. As you see in the discussion above, though, sometimes there's disagreement about what level of play is "predatory" or "vanity" depending on who's asking and who's in the know, and depending on your field and region of inquiry standards can be quite depressingly low. Never mind the Sokal affair when there's a replication crisis. And of course many of the same people advocating blanket removals will cite preprints without blinking an eye. I know Arxiv/General is considered verboten but it takes minimal affiliation to not be put there. And if a pretty graphic gets posted on a prof's CC-BY blog -- who needs peer review? Point of that smalltext rant is there's a lot of obsession here about whether something can be considered reliable on its face, and the reality seems to not work this way. I see more of a problem with articles misrepresenting or misusing or not in-line citing sources than I see articles having low-quality sources (albeit that can sometimes be the root cause of the former). Of course to address that kind of thing some of the most pious RS crusaders might have to turn off their bots a moment and read an article. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Tabloid sources for Pop Culture information
Earlier discussion (prior to archive 165) seemed to believe tabloids such as Daily Mail could be trusted in manners of pop culture and sports, but have since been entirely deprecated or suggested for total deprecation. In the context of pop culture events with verifiable information (such as TV show viewer rates and statistics) could they still be considered reliable sources? For context, I'm trying to add a source to the John Thaw[1] section mentioning viewership of "Inspector Morse" where citation 9&10 are. Iaintnojo (talk) 07:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Can we cite the viewership numbers to another source (one that isn’t deprecated)? If so, use that. If not, then I think you might have an argument that this is a “valid exception” to the deprecation. Blueboar (talk) 15:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
References
zakzak.co.jp
plz look towards this Japanese website. https://www.zakzak.co.jp/ Are they reliable? I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere in wikipedia regarding its credibility. Though i found some academic books which cites this website as its source of info. Arorapriyansh333 (talk) 07:42, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Arorapriyansh333: Are they reliable for what? It depends on the content that they're supposed to verify. ––FormalDude talk 15:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Oxford English Dictionary
Editors are invited to comment at the following RfC: Talk:TERF#RfC: Oxford English Dictionary. Crossroads -talk- 17:55, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Edith of Wilton
I have disagreed with Figureskatingfan at Talk:Edith of Wilton#Sources whether books by Sabine Baring-Gould and Agnes Dunbar are reliable sources. Comments from other editors would be helpful. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:45, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Zaborona
Is Zaborona reliable enough to establish the notability of an American-turned-Russian-propagandist operating in occupied parts of Ukraine? IntrepidContributor (talk) 09:54, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- yes, as one of the sources. (certainly now that even more sources have been added to the article with time) Mathmo Talk 16:51, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Reliability of brutusjournal.com
ORIGINALLY POSTED IN THE INCORRECT AREA- Moved
Disagreement regarding this edit “Ironically, the divisive leak led both parties to express outrage, Democrats for the content of the leaked draft, and Republicans out of concern regarding how a leak occurred.[114]”
Hello,
I have had an account for awhile and just recently decided to become more active again after a friend told me about the wikipedia contribution process. First, I decided to go source by source, rather than topic by topic, to add information I felt was relevant. However on my first source (brutusjournal.com) I was reverted. I understand spam must be a huge problem, but I do not see what the problem is in citing a younger source which can be came across. The information was in no was extreme, and rather than provide any dispute as to the reliability of the edits, they were simply reverted. I had the following exchange with the user responsible for the reverts:
Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did to Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include, but are not limited to, links to personal websites, links to websites with which you are affiliated (whether as a link in article text, or a citation in an article), and links that attract visitors to a website or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Because Wikipedia uses the nofollow attribute value, its external links are disregarded by most search engines. If you feel the link should be added to the page, please discuss it on the associated talk page rather than re-adding it. [1] MrOllie (talk) 10:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
This link was directly related to the text being added to the website. Which specific aspect of the external links guideline does this violate? The source is reliable and cites its own sources. It appears we must defer, in situations like these, to the “assume good faith” direction and allow the text to stand unless there is a specific violation that can be shown by the reverting party. Refsjjehhgshh (talk) 10:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
It's a self published student journal, so not reliable. Repetitively adding links to the same unreliable site is spamming as Wikipedia defines it. 'Assume good faith' never means that common link promotion patterns are ignored. If you are here to help build an encyclopedia and not to insert links to one particular website, I suggest you find something else to cite. MrOllie (talk) 11:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC) Wikipedia’s own pages state, “Self-published works are those in which the author and publisher are the same.” The source in question is a journal that publishes various authors works. I understand the concern, and with regards to helping build the encyclopedia, that is also of concern, but it is important to differentiate a personal blog (self published source) from a student journal. The content added so far is by no means exceptional or extreme. Refsjjehhgshh (talk) 11:21, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
If you want more input, feel free to take it up at WP:RSN. You'll be told the same thing there, though. MrOllie (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC) Refsjjehhgshh (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, the student journal [20] that Refsjjehhgshh has been spamming to Wikipedia articles isn't a reliable source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:11, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, the student journal is not a reliable source. Additionally, all postings used on wiki have same author, so suspect a WP:COI as well. Slywriter (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Obviously not reliable. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Pitchfork genre categories
There is concern (brought up here) that the music website Pitchfork lists genres at the top of their album and song reviews that are used as overly broad categories for site searchability, and that those should perhaps be deprecated because of their broadness/potential inaccuracy. This is similar to the standard set for the website AllMusic (see WP:ALLMUSIC) where we only accept genres that appear within the prose of the written review, and if it clears would involve leaving a note on the Pitchfork entry at WP:RSMUSIC (and wherever else is applicable) to inform editors of this rule. QuietHere (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia webpage for Phryma leptostachya
In the top right corner of web page for Phryma leptostachya (Lopseed) there is a picture of the inflorescence for Hylodesmum glutinosum [Desmodium glutinosum], Large Tick-trefoil. The picture of the inflorescence at the bottom of the page (right side) is correct for Phryma leptostachya. 99.248.93.5 (talk) 19:24, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Reliable sources
For Indian films, are Nowrunning, Indiaglitz, Filmibeat, etc. reliable or not? DareshMohan (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Filmibeat is pretty worthless imo, see past discussions. Also relevant PRAXIDICAE🌈 22:08, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Does the Associated Press' commitment to accountability journalism render it generally more WP:BIASED?
In 2013, the Associated Press' executive editor described their commitment to accountability journalism. Does this commitment render the Associated Press generally more biased on topics that might reasonably fall under it? --Aquillion (talk) 01:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Survey (Associated Press)
- No. Accountability journalism is well-respected tradition of journalism focused on determing the truth without regard to pleasing advertisers or political leaders; it is used by a wide number of high-quality RSes, eg. [21][22]. As described here, it corrects for biases that come from advertisers or (for publicly-subsidized media) political leaders, producing more accurate reporting:
The advertisers and consumers are rivals for information. The public wants to know everything about a product or service offered by an advertiser, but that advertiser may want to share only certain information about the product and about itself. Accountability journalism, also referred to as “watchdog” or “investigative” journalism, focuses on the demands of the public and will often reveal information that could be embarrassing to an advertiser or, in the case of publicly subsidized media, the political leaders who control media budgets.
Or see eg. [23],Put in even shorter-hand, access reporting tells you what the powerful said, while accountability reporting tells you what they did.
Some editors have speculated that the "demands of the public" could lead to biases themselves, but there's no sourcing supporting that and even if it were true, such speculation is obviously answered by the cite above - other forms of journalism have their own biases, which accountability bias specifically corrects for, so it is absurd to suggest that accountability journalism itself could render a source more susceptible to bias overall. --Aquillion (talk) 01:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC) - No, bias does not equate to unreliability. --Masem (t) 01:51, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- As laid out carefully above and below, the question this RFC is asking is whether the AP can be considered generally biased or not, not whether it is reliable or not; "reliability" and "unreliability" appear nowhere in the question - we are talking solely about whether the AP is generally biased, as you have previously indicated you feel that it is. By your "no", are you conceding that the AP is not generally biased, or at least that accountability journalism is in no way a source of bias? --Aquillion (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- This response is incoherent. The RfC question is, to paraphrase a bit, "is the AP biased". This response is, to paraphrase a bit, "No it's not, because yes it is but it doesn't matter". That's a contradiction. Please answer the question that was asked and not some different question. Loki (talk) 21:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, and WTF In what world does holding public figures and other powerful people not one of the primary purpose of journalism. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Procedural close: if Aquillion and Masem both say "no" then I would suggest that the RfC is not helpful to resolve some theoretical disagreement between them; nor do I see that an RfC serves any actionable purpose in relation to the discussion it arose from or some other dispute. — Bilorv (talk) 18:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- The core question is whether people can argue that the AP must be attributed when calling people to account per WP:BIASED due to its commitment to accountability journalism. If Masem has genuinely conceded the point and agrees that the AP cannot generally be presumed biased, then we can close the RFC, but otherwise it's important to establish that given how frequently we cite the AP for matters of fact. --Aquillion (talk) 19:48, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Masem's response is self-contradictory. Reading it carefully, it means "no but actually yes", because he appears to be answering "no" to some different question that wasn't asked, while implying a yes to the actual question at hand by suggesting the AP is biased without ever actually having to say "yes it's biased". It's classic politician-speak, and ironically so since the original discussion was about how to refer to American politicians.
- My blunt opinion here is that this suggests that Masem already knows consensus is strongly against his position, to the point where he doesn't want to have to defend it openly. So therefore, the value of this RfC is mostly in establishing that consensus against Masem's view on this explicitly, so people in similar arguments in the future will have somewhere to point to. Loki (talk) 22:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- No. I don't see any
commitment to accountability journalism
. In her speech, Carroll "extols" it and "underscores [its] importance", but nothing more. The speech is actually pretty tame. She says that journalists should ask "How" instead of just publishingno effort
stories likeRivers Flood. Governor Holds Press Conference. Opposition Seethes. Local Team Loses Another Squeaker. Etc.
She then goes on to give a few examples of how her team uncovered stories by questioning the official narrative and notsimply reporting what the authorities believe
. Tempest in a teapot? JBchrch talk 19:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC) - No - it's always been the job of good journalism to answer who, what, where, when, why, how. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:23, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- No - that speech appears to be pretty bog-standard and I'd honestly be suspicious of any journalistic outlet that doesn't ask basically qualifying questions like "how do you know this?". And because apparently this was somehow in doubt despite the question being very clear, I am saying that the AP is not (even) biased, not that it's reliable despite being biased. The question of whether it would be reliable if it was biased doesn't come up because it's not biased. Loki (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Discussion (Associated Press)
- This grew out of discussion here, where the concern was raised; note that the outcome of this RFC won't really say anything about the larger question there. --Aquillion (talk) 01:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- And which Ive stressed there, this a.non nessecary RFC because being biased does not equate to bein unreliable. This RFC is a waste of time because obviously the AP still remains reliable. Masem (t) 01:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- WP:BIASED; of course biased sources can be reliable. However, whether a source is biased can be a separate, relevant question, and I think that is what this discussion is asking. BilledMammal (talk) 01:56, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- And which Ive stressed there, this a.non nessecary RFC because being biased does not equate to bein unreliable. This RFC is a waste of time because obviously the AP still remains reliable. Masem (t) 01:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- As BilledMammal said, this RFC is about bias and not unreliablity - I recognize you are not calling it unreliable, but your argument is that the source is rendered generally biased by that statement (ie. unless I misunderstand your position, that statement is, based on your reading, something that omni-applicably renders the AP biased any time their reporting could be construed as calling anyone to account.) That's a broad, sweeping claim that affects the usage of the AP in a huge number of places across the wiki (and as you indicated there, you have comparable arguments that you'd apply to other high-quality sources, though I think answering it for the AP is sufficient for now.) That's the sort of thing that should be resolved with an RFC about the WP:RS in question, so you shouldn't say no, as you did above, unless you're conceding the point that accountability journalism is not, at least in this case, a source of bias. --Aquillion (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- No being biased does not affect incorporating the AP as an RS. It might affect how we summarize what is said based on YESPOV, using attribution than wikivoice when it comes to subjective statements, but not its flat out objective factual reporting. Thats all a NPOV question. Masem (t) 02:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that this is a question better suited for WP:NPOVN rather than WP:RSN? I think I agree with that, given the policies I just cited. BilledMammal (talk) 02:03, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- No being biased does not affect incorporating the AP as an RS. It might affect how we summarize what is said based on YESPOV, using attribution than wikivoice when it comes to subjective statements, but not its flat out objective factual reporting. Thats all a NPOV question. Masem (t) 02:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't object terribly to moving it, although moving an RFC is tricky. I would want to leave at least a notice here because I feel that discussing specific sources, including if or when they're biased, is also a matter for WP:RSN. --Aquillion (talk) 02:08, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Not even just NPOVN, it is a long standing issue boiling for years (2015 if not earlier), that has divided the community, but there is no clear way forward. The net result is basically how do we go about summarizing sources on People and topics which have fallen under more intense media scrutiny (as accountability journalism does), eg someone like Trump or Boris Johnson, while maintaining the neutrality writing goals of NPOV. No one single RFCcan solve that. Masem (t) 02:12, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- If it's an issue that has been boiling since 2015, that's all the more reason to start RFCs to try and resolve at least some parts of it. I don't expect / intend for one RFC to solve everything - this RFC is intentionally narrow compared to the broader issues; I'm sure you have other reasons you consider these sources biased, which we'll have to go through one by one. But I think we might consider questions that could be asked to narrow the scope of the issue further; we can at the very least answer specific questions about whether a specific source is biased for a specific reason, so we don't constantly run into circular-back-and-forth like "we can't cite the AP for this, the AP is generally biased!", "no, it isn't, it's a high-quality reliable source and is the gold standard for neutral journalism!" and so on. A question about "is the media, as a whole, biased" (and "is academia, as a whole, biased", which would naturally be connected) isn't really useful because defining bias that broadly would render it meaningless, but when you raise specific concerns about individual sources, saying that you feel they are biased for specific reasons, that's something an RFC can answer. --Aquillion (talk) 02:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- As BilledMammal said, this RFC is about bias and not unreliablity - I recognize you are not calling it unreliable, but your argument is that the source is rendered generally biased by that statement (ie. unless I misunderstand your position, that statement is, based on your reading, something that omni-applicably renders the AP biased any time their reporting could be construed as calling anyone to account.) That's a broad, sweeping claim that affects the usage of the AP in a huge number of places across the wiki (and as you indicated there, you have comparable arguments that you'd apply to other high-quality sources, though I think answering it for the AP is sufficient for now.) That's the sort of thing that should be resolved with an RFC about the WP:RS in question, so you shouldn't say no, as you did above, unless you're conceding the point that accountability journalism is not, at least in this case, a source of bias. --Aquillion (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- For those of us not acquainted with accountability journalism, can an editor explain why it might? BilledMammal (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Basically, if a politician appoints his son to a position, that's nepotism. Accountability journalism would push back on the narrative that Mr Politician Jr got appointed to the Very Important Position on basis of his merits alone. Basically if you have a situation that doesn't smell quite right, a journalist will dig it, ask questions, find patterns and generally investigate the situation and hold someone's feet to the flames and grill them with questions and publish their reporting. The Watergate Scandal is an example of it. Investigative reporting on the Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse cases is another. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:08, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Is this site a reliable source?
Some of the "articles" appear to take information from a primary source(Quran). Seems very blog-like.
Imam-us Kansas Bear (talk) 20:39, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Middle East International
I have been using Draft:Middle East International as a reference/source and would like to know if it can be considered as reliable. I appreciate that it is no longer published, probably had low circulation and is not available for checking on the internet. I have been using it in dozens of Lebanon related articles, for instance War of Liberation (1989–1990) and Zahleh campaign. Many thanks. Padres Hana (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2022 (UTC)