NPP backlog
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Proposal: increase unreviewed new page search engine NOINDEX duration
Alexandermcnabb had a great idea above. Articles should not be searchable in 90 days automatically, but ONLY AFTER they have passed NPP.
I think this is actionable, it is probably pretty easy to file a Phabricator ticket tagged with Wikimedia-Site-requests to change $wgPageTriageMaxAge = 365;
. Should I create a WP:VPR for this? Is 365 a good number of days to bump it up to? (currently at 90 days) –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is a great idea; by definition, anything still in draft is not ready to be searchable. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- This isn't about drafts, I think: it's about mainspace articles that haven't been patrolled yet. I think drafts already aren't searchable. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that this would be a good idea; hopefully it shouldn't be too controversial. Do you know where the 90-day limit was decided? All I could find was this RfC, which seems to suggest that all unpatrolled pages should be noindexed. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:11, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Technical limitations?
- I think there are some technical limitations; I remember a similar discussion where it was revealed that the backlog for redirects is capped at 30 days because the page triage system cannot handle the amount of redirects that would pile up in the full 90 days. signed, Rosguill talk 19:31, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- @DannyS712, would you be able to weigh in on any technical limitations to raising $wgPageTriageMaxAge? Is there some kind of database issue that makes this not as easy as changing a variable? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:16, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- @MusikAnimal, would you be able to weigh in on any technical limitations to raising $wgPageTriageMaxAge? Is there some kind of database issue that makes this not as easy as changing a variable? –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae There's no technical concern with increasing $wgPageTriageMaxAge as far as I can tell. gerrit:356781 points to this discussion which implies it was created for this very reason. — MusikAnimal talk 05:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- That was an interesting discussion. It gives the reason for 90 days - a concern that someone could "vandalize" an important article by slipping in a NOINDEX. To mitigate that, NOINDEX is ignored on "old" articles and only works on "new" articles. There was an assumption that articles would be patrolled within 90 days. MB 08:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- That could be handled separately by an edit filter that detects edits introducing NOINDEX in mainspace. MarioGom (talk) 08:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm. I wonder, how tightly coupled are $wgPageTriageMaxAge and __NOINDEX__? I assumed they were separate, each having their own max duration, but it's possible that their durations are controlled by the same setting. Or maybe a wgPageTriageMaxAge = 365 would place a NOINDEX but then the NOINDEX would still be set to 90 and that would defeat the purpose.
- I also wonder if it'd be technically feasible to go over 365 days. One reason I chose that number is I know that the SQL table pagetriage_log_table only keeps 365 days of data,[1] and I wonder if going over that might cause problems. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ping MusikAnimal. Was wondering if you could weigh in again, if you know offhand. Thanks! –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae I'm not aware of a time limit on __NOINDEX__, or at least it doesn't seem to be documented. I didn't read all of the lengthy discussion but it seemed at the time, there were separate, unrelated issues where basically NOINDEX wasn't working as expected. That appeared to have been resolved as well. $wgPageTriageMaxAge acts completely independently, judging by the code. — MusikAnimal talk 21:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That could be handled separately by an edit filter that detects edits introducing NOINDEX in mainspace. MarioGom (talk) 08:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- That was an interesting discussion. It gives the reason for 90 days - a concern that someone could "vandalize" an important article by slipping in a NOINDEX. To mitigate that, NOINDEX is ignored on "old" articles and only works on "new" articles. There was an assumption that articles would be patrolled within 90 days. MB 08:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae There's no technical concern with increasing $wgPageTriageMaxAge as far as I can tell. gerrit:356781 points to this discussion which implies it was created for this very reason. — MusikAnimal talk 05:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think there are some technical limitations; I remember a similar discussion where it was revealed that the backlog for redirects is capped at 30 days because the page triage system cannot handle the amount of redirects that would pile up in the full 90 days. signed, Rosguill talk 19:31, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Sources
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Break
- This makes sense, if it's technically feasible. MarioGom (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is it possible to have a max age based on categories? BLPs, for instance, shouldn't be indexed at all until reviewed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- The biggest issue may not be technical. This is a quote from Kudpung: "otherwise you'll just have to make an argument at the WMF to extend the un-patrolled period, and believe me, that would be no easy task, even if you have friends there and meet them personally - been there, done that" — Preceding unsigned comment added by MB (talk • contribs) 17:16, June 17, 2022 (UTC)
- I'm in favor, if it's technically feasible. Not sure what to do if WMF is problematic, but I'd hope we could work through any issues. Not sure what the issue might be - if it's "that's the way it's always been," then why hide IP addresses that have always been open, eh? Geoff | Who, me? 21:24, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- It helps, especially as applicable to PE in that the client can't see the article so no payment will be forthcoming. Atsme 💬 📧 21:30, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, rsjaffe, we still need to patch the hole that allows unsourced articles to slip into mainspace, and also work on a more efficient system for handling redirects. Atsme 💬 📧 00:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Now that I think about it, changing this will actually help. Right now, no one other than the reviewers has "skin in the game". No one else has an incentive to fix this. With NOINDEX, we can motivate those who care about search engines. Might provide a touch of support to meaningful changes. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 00:14, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, rsjaffe, we still need to patch the hole that allows unsourced articles to slip into mainspace, and also work on a more efficient system for handling redirects. Atsme 💬 📧 00:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- One of my favorite sayings is that deadlines spur action. So would this mean that some patrolling that happens because people are concerned about a page being indexed wouldn't happen or would it allow a more stable operation of the queue before something gets indexed? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've given up on deadlines. I patrol and find 1) stuff that belongs in Wikipedia, 2) bad stuff (e.g., UPE, sockpuppetry, obvious non-notable). Anything in the middle, particularly if it is sports related, I just pass on and let it age out. An interesting thing I did was look at the queue starting 31 days out. articles that are not obviously notable in 1) sports category or 2) foreign-language-reference-supported predominate. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- My intention was that people who WANT their article to get any attention (ie: Search) would ensure the article is in fit condition for NPP to validate them. At that point (and not automatically after 90 days), the article would be searchable and therefore properly 'live'. This both spurs creators to ensure pages are up to par and ensures that pages that aren't are not searchable and therefore limits the need to send articles to draftification (easing the burden on AfC), limits the need to go to AfD except in the most extreme/certain to pass cases and ensures that people aren't searching WP and finding utter rubbish. Additionally, lifting the burden for performing BEFORE on NPP means that the article AS PRESENTED is patrolled - not the notional article that could have been should the creator have actually looked for the sources the article needs - reducing burden on the small number of patrollers and increasing the requirements for the large number of page creators to actually create viable pages. Thanks, Novem Linguae for picking it up. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've given up on deadlines. I patrol and find 1) stuff that belongs in Wikipedia, 2) bad stuff (e.g., UPE, sockpuppetry, obvious non-notable). Anything in the middle, particularly if it is sports related, I just pass on and let it age out. An interesting thing I did was look at the queue starting 31 days out. articles that are not obviously notable in 1) sports category or 2) foreign-language-reference-supported predominate. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 01:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49, I'm thinking that if exposure is the main purpose of creating an article, then it holds to reason that if it isn't being seen (indexed), the creator will be incentivized to fix it. OTH, if it's a BOT creation, or one the creator doesn't give a flip about, then it's highly unlikely that (a) it's worthy of inclusion or (b) that the issues will actually be fixed; both of which warrant CSD or PROD. Any article that is notable and worthy of inclusion will be sourced, but let's not waste time on the symptoms and go straight to the root of the problem. An unsourced article never should have made it into mainspace. If we patch that hole, and prevent unsourced articles from slipping through the cracks, a lot of our problems are solved. I'm not sure where the notion of publish it anyway actually originated, but it defies our core content policies, and taxes the very core of NPP volunteerism without fair representation. As rsjaffe put it, the bulk of those who oppose deletion don't have any "skin in the game", or a "dog in the fight". This whole scenario is one of the reasons we need the stats I've asked about – we need a cost vs benefit analysis, so to speak, as it relates to the arguments for keeping unsourced articles that have been denied deletion at CSD & PROD – where did they finally end up? Did they get stuck in the NPP queue – go to AfD and were deleted – or did they actually get published with/without fixing the problems? Crafty editors will also take advantage of redirects to create articles in mainspace without drawing much attention. The redirects, reverts of redirects and those that lead to AfD are another issue – but I sincerely believe it's one we can fix at the root cause - PREVENTION, keep unsourced articles/stubs from ever seeing the light of day. Atsme 💬 📧 14:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ultimately if more articles are being made than we have capacity to patrol it's going to be a problem at some point. Pushing out no index would give us more breathing room but not change that underlying issue. So we have to either increase capacity or decrease the number of new articles. So ultimately any increase in the NOINDEX time should be accompanied by some plan to change one of these things. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm for decreasing the number of new articles, which is something we can do by heading them off at the pass; i.e. PREVENTION. A BOT could be created to assure each new article going into mainspace has at least 3 citations before it leaves Draft, or is directly created in mainspace, regardless of autopatrolled status. I don't know enough about the "theft" of redirects to address that issue - all I know is that it exists and it's a problem. Wbm1058 can probably explain it far better than I ever could. Adherence to WP:PAG and more CSD & PROD support from our admins will help to self-correct some of the other issues, as will getting more admins trained in NPP reviewing so that fewer CSD & PRODs will be rejected or sent to AfD. Redirects also need attention in an effort to make it more difficult to get a bad article back into mainspace which is another rather substantial prevailing issue. The various discussions at VPP demonstrates where a big part of the issues stem, including ambiguities and misunderstandings of PAGs topping the list. I also noticed that, for whatever reason, some editors don't have a "middle button" - they are either 100% inclusionist or 100% deletionist. What we need are more includelists. Atsme 💬 📧 15:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I'll give you an example case study – something I caught on my patrols and cleaned up this morning. I won't say exactly how I found it per "beans" though I do have a section on my user page where I list my work queues, and it was something on that list. Untangling the mess there was a time-consuming manual process which would be extremely difficult to automate. My focus has been on occasionally adding more patrols when I stumble across something that wasn't caught by any patrol I try to create a new patrol that finds other cases just like the one I stumbled onto. Aliana was first created 16 December 2007 as an article about an album by Aliana Lohan. This was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aliana. Aliana was re-created 13 July 2017 as a redirect to Eliana via Articles for Creation. That redirect was usurped by OfTheUsername when they started a new article about Aliana, Texas (OfTheUsername later moved Aliana to Aliana, Texas: Proper naming.). That new article had been shuttled back & forth to draft space. I untangled all the crossed wires, and deemed the Texas planned community to not be a primary topic, so I made Aliana a disambiguation. I'm a "middle button" who generally leaves keep/delete decisions about articles like Aliana, Texas to others. But I did note that AIRIA Development Company might have an interest in promoting their planned community which is unlike the other communities listed on Template:Fort Bend County, Texas. I remember riding my bike through places like Crabb and Clodine on my bicycle rides west of Houston in the early to mid 1980s. OMG, Fulshear, Texas is a city with 16,000+ ppl now? I remember that place as not much more than a country corner with a BBQ joint where we ate lunch either during or after our ride (back then it had a population under 600). – wbm1058 (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's a can of worms. Atsme 💬 📧 18:27, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- bro what. I made the Aliana article independently. I don't work for/connected to AIRIA Development company or affiliates or anything. Sorry about the redirection and stuff I tried to make it a draft but then it acted weird. My bad. OfTheUsername (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I'll give you an example case study – something I caught on my patrols and cleaned up this morning. I won't say exactly how I found it per "beans" though I do have a section on my user page where I list my work queues, and it was something on that list. Untangling the mess there was a time-consuming manual process which would be extremely difficult to automate. My focus has been on occasionally adding more patrols when I stumble across something that wasn't caught by any patrol I try to create a new patrol that finds other cases just like the one I stumbled onto. Aliana was first created 16 December 2007 as an article about an album by Aliana Lohan. This was deleted per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aliana. Aliana was re-created 13 July 2017 as a redirect to Eliana via Articles for Creation. That redirect was usurped by OfTheUsername when they started a new article about Aliana, Texas (OfTheUsername later moved Aliana to Aliana, Texas: Proper naming.). That new article had been shuttled back & forth to draft space. I untangled all the crossed wires, and deemed the Texas planned community to not be a primary topic, so I made Aliana a disambiguation. I'm a "middle button" who generally leaves keep/delete decisions about articles like Aliana, Texas to others. But I did note that AIRIA Development Company might have an interest in promoting their planned community which is unlike the other communities listed on Template:Fort Bend County, Texas. I remember riding my bike through places like Crabb and Clodine on my bicycle rides west of Houston in the early to mid 1980s. OMG, Fulshear, Texas is a city with 16,000+ ppl now? I remember that place as not much more than a country corner with a BBQ joint where we ate lunch either during or after our ride (back then it had a population under 600). – wbm1058 (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm for decreasing the number of new articles, which is something we can do by heading them off at the pass; i.e. PREVENTION. A BOT could be created to assure each new article going into mainspace has at least 3 citations before it leaves Draft, or is directly created in mainspace, regardless of autopatrolled status. I don't know enough about the "theft" of redirects to address that issue - all I know is that it exists and it's a problem. Wbm1058 can probably explain it far better than I ever could. Adherence to WP:PAG and more CSD & PROD support from our admins will help to self-correct some of the other issues, as will getting more admins trained in NPP reviewing so that fewer CSD & PRODs will be rejected or sent to AfD. Redirects also need attention in an effort to make it more difficult to get a bad article back into mainspace which is another rather substantial prevailing issue. The various discussions at VPP demonstrates where a big part of the issues stem, including ambiguities and misunderstandings of PAGs topping the list. I also noticed that, for whatever reason, some editors don't have a "middle button" - they are either 100% inclusionist or 100% deletionist. What we need are more includelists. Atsme 💬 📧 15:56, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a page that shows page creation by user metrics (Daily, Weekly, Monthly)? Perhaps some users could be evaluated and "nominated" for Autopatrol by the community.Slywriter (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Slywriter: Wikipedia:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege maybe? – Joe (talk) 18:36, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I discovered that there used to exist an edit filter to flag unsourced new articles, though it was decommissioned in 2012 with the comment "disabling, no real use" (?). There's also a fairly recent unanswered query as to whether the filter should be reinstated. While this wouldn't be a universal solution, I believe (in agreement with the recent post) that warning users who are about to publish an unsourced article would either lead them to add sources or refrain from publishing. The filter also got quite a number of hits before it was deleted, but I believe it preceded ACTRIAL. Would reinstating this filter be at least a partial solution? ComplexRational (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting discovery. I wonder if it will also catch autopatrolled in mainspace or if it only works at AfC draft to mainspace? It should be a universal catch-all filter. No article should be in mainspace without a minimum of cited RS, even if it's just 2. Could it also catch sources that are unreliable by integrating User:Headbomb/unreliable and maybe even User:SuperHamster/CiteUnseen.js would prove useful? Atsme 💬 📧 17:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- From what I see, the filter's old configuration did not target any specific user groups and was set to work for all mainspace pages, with built-in exceptions for pages that aren't supposed to have sources such as redirects and disambiguation pages. I'm unsure about autopatrolled – but in that case, there could be grounds for revocation of the permission. Regarding the scripts, I doubt they could be implemented in a filter because there's enormous potential for false positives/negatives and there are simply too many cases to cover (someone with more advanced programming skills, feel free to correct me though); reactivating the old filter would simply help in catching the most egregious cases. ComplexRational (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Quick tech note. The edit filter is computationally expensive and it would probably not be performant to look for more than a short list of the dozen or so most egregious unreliable sources. Which we already have some filters for, e.g. filter 869. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- How is the filter catching no sources? Is it using citation format, or reflist, or something of that nature? Atsme 💬 📧 18:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: It flags any new article that doesn't have any of several character strings that would suggest either the presence of sources or a page not needing sources – this means flagging new pages not having any of <ref> tags, http/https, disambiguation in the title, #REDIRECT, etc. It doesn't discriminate types of sources, only whether any could be present. ComplexRational (talk) 18:45, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- How is the filter catching no sources? Is it using citation format, or reflist, or something of that nature? Atsme 💬 📧 18:32, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting discovery. I wonder if it will also catch autopatrolled in mainspace or if it only works at AfC draft to mainspace? It should be a universal catch-all filter. No article should be in mainspace without a minimum of cited RS, even if it's just 2. Could it also catch sources that are unreliable by integrating User:Headbomb/unreliable and maybe even User:SuperHamster/CiteUnseen.js would prove useful? Atsme 💬 📧 17:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ultimately if more articles are being made than we have capacity to patrol it's going to be a problem at some point. Pushing out no index would give us more breathing room but not change that underlying issue. So we have to either increase capacity or decrease the number of new articles. So ultimately any increase in the NOINDEX time should be accompanied by some plan to change one of these things. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- That 2012 RfC was a result of a couple of meetings I had with Jorm and Erik Möller over the development of New Page Triage, the working name for the new feed and curation software development. Characteristically Oliver Okeyes (WMF), jumped on the bandwaggon before any volunteers could could start the community discussion, and he later continually tried to block development right through to his leaving the community although there was a clear consensus (WereSpielChequers and Scottywong will remember all this).
- 'No Index until patrolled' was much like Jumpback which Oliver also promised and did nothing about and wasn’t resolved until TonyBallioni stepped in years later and it finally got boxed through at the WishList in 2019. Anyway, Extraordinary Writ, you can all blame me for the 90 days. When I was asked, it's what I suggested thinking it would be enough. A few years later we got ACTRIAL done which greatly reduced the flood of effluent but it wasn't long before the problems with patrollers started.
- Per Barkeep49:
Ultimately if more articles are being made than we have capacity to patrol it's going to be a problem at some point.
Yes, pushing out the 90 days would certainly just be a palliative. First off - and I know you'll all hate me for this - some stats are needed over a sample period: how many articles are kept immediately, how many are draftified, how many are PRODed, how many are CSDd and AfDd? Or did someone do that already and I missed it? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:23, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
I think that extending the 90 days is beyond logical....knowing what we now know, the short 90 day number defeats the whole purpose of that (good) feature and makes it pointless. North8000 (talk) 10:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- The suggestion is not to push 90 days out, Kudpung, but institute 'No review = No Search' as a flat deal and make that public, possibly with some guidance on notability and sourcing that lets new page creators know that their page will not be searchable until it reaches a minimum standard of notability/sourcing and has been patrolled. I'm not sure where stats help in this - we can all see the scale of the problem and this would apply some systemic leverage for creators to focus on sourcing. This also means sub-standard articles aren't 'rewarded' by being searchable after 90 days whether reviewed or not - when right now we have little hope of getting to articles in 90 days. The best stat I can see is the NPP queue and how little we are managing to reduce it! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 13:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's quite clear, Alex, that at least Barkeep49 certainly concur that a palliative would not have much effect. One advantage, as the potted NPP history I wrote above is intended to demonstrate, is that the en.Wiki and a few others have since asserted their maturity vis-à-vis the WMF and can now instigate their own controls and policies.
'No review = No Search' as a flat deal
is not only an excellent suggestion, but where no amount whipping all the 750 reviewers into action is ever going to work, it's also the only solution. Just do it. It's technically a doddle so just ask at Phab for the switch to be thrown. OTOH, if the Grand Masters of Phab decide you need a community consensus first, you'll have get one. ACTRIAL is a seminal example of changing outdated 'founding principle' policy; we had some very heavy participation and extremely convincing consensus each time we ran a debate for it, but only because our mission statements were armed with a lot of significant stats and very carefully crafted proposals. Now its time for some action. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)- Now, I can just about get my head around NPP and AfD, and I can even create the odd page (bless him, but it was User:TonyBallioni wot granted me autopatrolled, as you mention him) but this Phab switchy stuff is, to be honest, a bit beyond me. Have you SEEN what a mess I can make with source editing? I'm not sure I'm the person to actually take this one forward, but am perfectly happy to have made the suggestion if others want to activate it - and just as happy to support. But as for anything beyond tinkering with content, I'm really sure it's not my long suit... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's quite clear, Alex, that at least Barkeep49 certainly concur that a palliative would not have much effect. One advantage, as the potted NPP history I wrote above is intended to demonstrate, is that the en.Wiki and a few others have since asserted their maturity vis-à-vis the WMF and can now instigate their own controls and policies.
- The suggestion is not to push 90 days out, Kudpung, but institute 'No review = No Search' as a flat deal and make that public, possibly with some guidance on notability and sourcing that lets new page creators know that their page will not be searchable until it reaches a minimum standard of notability/sourcing and has been patrolled. I'm not sure where stats help in this - we can all see the scale of the problem and this would apply some systemic leverage for creators to focus on sourcing. This also means sub-standard articles aren't 'rewarded' by being searchable after 90 days whether reviewed or not - when right now we have little hope of getting to articles in 90 days. The best stat I can see is the NPP queue and how little we are managing to reduce it! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 13:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you MB for taking the initiative. Personally, I would have asked for indefinite 'NO INDEX' and see what the WMF offered. It's always better to ask for more and then negotiate down if held against the wall by the throat. That said, if you get 365 days it might just do the trick but I'm wary of being back here again in 5 years and asking for more. Anyway, by then Wikipedia might be dead, and so might I ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I did ask for INDEFINITE (as you know now that you have been to the phab ticket, just clarifying here for others). There is already a suggestion there for 365 days, and the task was renamed to reflect that :( MB 13:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you MB for taking the initiative. Personally, I would have asked for indefinite 'NO INDEX' and see what the WMF offered. It's always better to ask for more and then negotiate down if held against the wall by the throat. That said, if you get 365 days it might just do the trick but I'm wary of being back here again in 5 years and asking for more. Anyway, by then Wikipedia might be dead, and so might I ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I realise that now. All the fun of the fair, just as I predicted.
The Phab request has now been marked as 'stalled'. I hope enough people are following this because the devs are going to need a lot of convincing this is necessary. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also says a "local discussion" is underway. If that means a private discussion among devs, that is not transparent. All our discussions on this are public. MB 14:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is classic WMF dev-speak. There is nothing for them to discuss. It's their way of finding another ruse for stalling. They are pretending - like I said above - that the whole thing needs yet another RfC. Oh, I know Phab so well - and Bugzilla, its predecessor. So do Scottywong and The Blade of the Northern Lights. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, the phab ticket has only been open for a day or two, and it doesn't look like anyone has said anything like "we're not going to do this." So, I'd cut them some slack and give them a reasonable amount of time to figure out how to make the change without introducing any unexpected consequences. If they do eventually refuse to make the change, there are probably ways for us to make this happen on our own, without help from the devs. It wouldn't be nearly as efficient or elegant, but you could have a bot automatically add a template to all new articles that ensures they're not indexed, and then removes that template once the article is patrolled. It would be a silly way to do it, but it's possible if the devs put up a brick wall. But from what I can tell, we're not yet anywhere near the point of needing to contemplate such actions. Give them a week or so to figure out what they're gonna do. —ScottyWong— 18:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is classic WMF dev-speak. There is nothing for them to discuss. It's their way of finding another ruse for stalling. They are pretending - like I said above - that the whole thing needs yet another RfC. Oh, I know Phab so well - and Bugzilla, its predecessor. So do Scottywong and The Blade of the Northern Lights. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Picking a specific # of days for NOINDEX proposal at Village Pump
I opened the phab and asked that the 2012 RFC, which called for unpatrolled articles to be NOINDEXED (indefinitely, until patrolled) be implemented. There was some pretty strong support for that here. In follow-up discussion at Wikipedia:Page Curation/Suggested improvements#Extend NOINDEX beyond 90 days, Novem Linguae and MusikAnimal are suggesting we not go that far and start with 6 months or a year instead of indefinite, and suggest a broader discussion since the RFC was 10 years ago. I don't think more discussion is necessary here, but how about a poll to see if we have a clear local consensus before discussing at VPP: MB 18:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- 180 days
- 365 days
- indefinite
- Anything is fine with me, as long as we as NPPs coalesce around a particular number before we take this to WP:VPR. MusikAnimal recommends 180 days. I originally recommended 365 days.
There is an increase in the ease of the patch if we use an integer number, since indefinite would require custom code.–Novem Linguae (talk) 18:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)- On Jun 23, someone submitted a patch to allow wgPageTriageMaxAge to be set to infinite easily, so there is no longer a technical barrier to implementing infinite if we desire. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:52, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
@Chris troutman, Extraordinary Writ, MarioGom, Atsme, Barkeep49, Rsjaffe, Kudpung, North8000, Alexandermcnabb, and Scottywong: Pinging other participants in the discussion, please state your preference as to the time period. MB 19:31, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest 180 days when I saw the section title; 365 also seems fine to me and adds more of a buffer in case our backlog situation gets worse. Given that indefinite is apparently more technically difficult, I think it makes sense to pick a cutoff time, even if it's a bit arbitrary. As a sidebar: do we know how the cutoff currently affects articles created from redirects that were created more than 90 days ago? They sit in the back of the queue and it's not clear to me if they get deindexed or not. signed, Rosguill talk 19:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- 365, though I prefer indefinite. I’m thinking about how that would affect the article writers, as I want to see a strong incentive to add notability sources.
- on the other hand, if we fix the workflow, the noindex duration would become less important. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- 180 is enough - adding that I'm ok with 365 or even indef 03:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC) And I also have questions. Is there a way to check for dupes from time to time while an article is in draft? I've actually come across a few dupes that were in main space and also in draft. Typically, truly notable topics don't just disappear because one attempt failed. I don't see WP running out of articles because we had to draftify a few problematic or unfinished stubs/articles. I was also wondering if there's a way we can promote those types of articles to educators who want to teach the WP editing process, and can make good use of them to show students where the problems are, and how to make them main space ready? Atsme 💬 📧 20:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- 365 Anything less than indefinite creates a perverse incentive for article authors to overwhelm our ability to patrol but I think a calendar year is sufficient time to patrol, especially since implementation of 365 days is apparently technically easier. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- 90 days is a big problem.....large amounts of unreviewed articles go past that. Indefinite is best and sort of needed if it's looking at the creation date of the page because the page creation date on articles created by converting a redirect or moving from a draft space is the date of creation of the draft or redirect which can be 10 years ago for a page that just showed up as an article space yesterday. Beyond 180 days you still also have a lot of completely new articles in the NPP cue.....usually ones several NPP'ers looked at and avoided. So indefinite is best, 365 is second best, 180 days is third best. 90 days is far far too short. North8000 (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to indefinite for philosophical reasons (I think deadlines are helpful to spurring volunteer action and I have a soft spot for our "anyone can contribute" roots) and practical (I don't think the foundation would go for it). No preference between 180 or 365. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- 180 with adjustment to filter or a separate report that shows articles over 90 days (actual 90 days, not un-redirects so 2005 articles appear). Between the two, should be able to keep anything egregious out of indexing. Slywriter (talk) 20:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Slight preference for 365. If the backlog gets beyond that, then the deadline would be the least of our problems for NPP. MarioGom (talk) 21:45, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite or 365 as a second choice if the former is not possible. Someone, sorry I can't recall who, made the excellent point much earlier that article creators - especially UPE, who won't get paid until it goes 'live' - have a much bigger vested interest in creating better articles - I echo User:North8000's concerns about redirects - is the timer indeed article creation or is it reset by queue addition? Sorry, me no teknikal... Two 'sorries' in one sentence - spot the Brit. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 04:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite or 365 as a second choice if the former is not possible. We should not be offering articles to google if they have not been patrolled, since so much stuff I come across violates core content policies. (t · c) buidhe 05:22, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite or 365 as a second choice if the former is not possible. As there are no chances whatsoever of
'spurring volunteer action'
with or without backlog drives or canvassing for new reviewers. This is a time to be pragmatic and not wax philosophical. 'Indefinite' is not a hurdle and it would avoid having to go back and ask for more next year. As I said earlier, we should not be suggesting anything alternative to 'indefinite', but this RfC unfortunately now opens up the decision by the 'gatekeepers' at the WMF and allow them to beat us down to something that can no longer be negotiated down to when they hold the volunteer community by the throat against the wall - and they will. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC) - Update: it looks as if the devs are going to do 'indefinite' after all. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- yay! >little indef dance< Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 08:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite. I never understood why we had a limit. 90 days, 180 days, a year... it doesn't really make a difference. Articles should not be searchable until they've been checked by at least one other human being. – Joe (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite in light of the report that its implementation is technically possible. Unpatrolled pages with potential issues should not be indexed under any circumstances, though I also support a separate report (suggested by Slywriter) for pages older than 90 days so that they don't get lost in the queue and can easily draw attention from multiple reviewers if necessary. ComplexRational (talk) 12:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- BTW I did some looking and also from my sometimes work at the back end of the que ....it looks like that back end of the "regular article" cue is somewhere around 9 months. There it looks like mostly articles that several NPP'ers looked at and decided not to handle. Lot's of what looks like "edge case that should probably go to AFD but I don't want to be the one to decide and do that". Back around a year (or older) it becomes more articles that have a old birth date from their birth as a redirect or draft, but where the actual article is much newer. North8000 (talk) 13:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Off topic but agree, User:North8000, I've spent the last 10 days at the back end of the horse and the resulting AfDs are at times attracting controversy and a lively debate! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- BTW I did some looking and also from my sometimes work at the back end of the que ....it looks like that back end of the "regular article" cue is somewhere around 9 months. There it looks like mostly articles that several NPP'ers looked at and decided not to handle. Lot's of what looks like "edge case that should probably go to AFD but I don't want to be the one to decide and do that". Back around a year (or older) it becomes more articles that have a old birth date from their birth as a redirect or draft, but where the actual article is much newer. North8000 (talk) 13:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indefinite or 365 would encapsulate the maximum size of the NPP queue that I've seen to date. Either one would suit me down to the ground. scope_creepTalk 22:53, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- 180 days would align with the 6 month limit of draft space. The word Wiki means quick and so talk of years is absurd. And an indefinite limit would be a surrender, encouraging the idea that it's safe to let backlogs climb to infinity. The lack of any sense of urgency would tend to kill motivation so the patrol process would fail even more than it does currently. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:19, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- 365 days . which will be long enough to deal with the material. "Infinite is more likely to lead to complications. DGG ( talk ) 23:34, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
By my count, no limit (indefinite) has clear consensus (nine including those that said any of the choices were OK, three said 180/365, and no one objected to increasing from 90). I will put a notification at WP:VPR. MB 19:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- No additional comments. Will update the Phab ticket. MB 04:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think "indefinite" is a bad idea, slight preference for 180, but OK with 365. Creating and distributing content is in our core mission - that it could be indefinitely hampered because of slow or insufficient volunteers is sort of anti-wiki. If we are going to be fine hosting bad content for an entire year, then asking some search engines to please look the other way past that time is diminishing. — xaosflux Talk 13:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Follow up. So here is a use-case scenario:
- An editor, Alice, notices we are lacking an article on something she read about Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata
- Alice writes up a new short article on this, (assuming good faith it is a fine start-class article)
- It sits noindexed - making it harder for the general public to find
- This noindex stays forever until some other volunteer volunteers to approve the page
- Follow up. So here is a use-case scenario:
- Also, as this is a change that impacts almost all editors - as I noted at the just recently listed VP posing, this doesn't seem to be well advertised. — xaosflux Talk 13:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I thought the idea of this discussion was to workshop a proposal to take to the village pump, at which point it would be widely advertised. – Joe (talk) 13:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh I see, it was taken to VPP. @MB: I think Xaosflux is right, your post at VPP doesn't show sufficient consensus for this idea. It should have been formatted as a clear proposal and advertised at WP:CENT, etc. Instead it reads like you're informing VPP of a decision that's already been made (which isn't the case – the heading of this section is "Picking a specific # of days for NOINDEX proposal at Village Pump"). – Joe (talk) 13:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Xaosflux and Joe Roe, I echo what Kudpung said below. There was clear consensus at NPP here to reaffirm the prior RFC. I didn't think this had sufficient likelihood of being controversial enough to warrant forking into a separate VPP discussion and/or new RFC. I placed a neutrally worded notice there about this discussion and asked for further comments, of which there have been almost none. This change does not impact editors; people who are concerned about whether their article is indexed are usually trying to promote something which is clearly against our core policies. They should not be rewarded in getting added visibility via search engines after some arbitrary time period because NPP volunteeers are overwhelmed by the quantity of poorly sourced and difficult to review articles. NPP is trying to address the backlog and I do not believe will be any less motivated to do so when this is implemented. We are just trying to improve the encyclopedia by closing this way to get unvetteted articles fully into mainspace. I also note that any newbie who follows our suggestions and uses AFC is blocked from publishing trash, but someone a little more sophisticated bypasses AFC and has a good chance of having their trash live and indexed. This is a step towards equalizing these processes. MB 23:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think "indefinite" is a bad idea, slight preference for 180, but OK with 365. Creating and distributing content is in our core mission - that it could be indefinitely hampered because of slow or insufficient volunteers is sort of anti-wiki. If we are going to be fine hosting bad content for an entire year, then asking some search engines to please look the other way past that time is diminishing. — xaosflux Talk 13:13, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux and Joe Roe:, IMO this is a purely local NPP issue, and an essential software request. I do not see how
this is a change that impacts almost all editors
; it is directly related to the workload of the NPP process and its inability to keep up with the stream of mostly inadmissible, or at best, articles possibly of relative unimportance, that nowadays make up the bulk of new submissions. ACPERM (also an NPP initiative) greatly reduced the tide of effluent a couple of years ago but it's already grown again to its previous proportions. Indexing for search engines may be a coveted bonus for some creators, but it is not a right. I do not understand why challenging improvements to NPP would be particularly helpful, or why the few genuinely active NPPers should be constantly be made to feel they don't do enough. Prolific reviewers are being lost already through burnout. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)- Am I reading that currently volunteers are encouraged to quickly patrol new pages due to the current settings, yet by extending the setting they will be less encouraged to quickly process new submissions - especially by extending the setting to forever? Reviewing new pages is indeed important and should be done regardless of the request to external indexing engines - if we are hosting bad information it should be dealt with as soon as possible. — xaosflux Talk 22:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux: I think you are most likely reading this wrong. Your comment:
'Creating and distributing content is in our core mission '
is correct, but hampering it due to preventing NPP from doing its work by challenging its requests for improvement to the process is, IMHO, decidedly 'anti-Wiki'. When I created the NPP user right in October 2016, it was with the express intent of introducing experienced and high quality patrolling into the system and for no other reason - it was certainly not intended to make it slower! I fail to understand why the WMF is determined to undermine its own objectives. - Hence the local Wikipedias and their task-force volunteers are obliged to take matters into their own hands like they would have done for ACTRIAL if the WMF had not acquiesced after 10 years of bitter wrangling. IMO, WMF employees should not even be participating in these community discussions. Clearly the number of articles in the corpus is a far more important boast for the WMF than the quality and reliability of the content in them. The reason that so many inappropriate or totally unsuitable new pages are submitted is directly due to the WMF's refusal to do anything about it - despite the constant begging for a proper new user welcome page. Compared to some idipendent projects using MediaWiki, the Wikipedia is totally antiquated - a Model T Ford in terms of progress in information technology - and based on ideologies that now, after 20 years have little in common with today's reality: that the English Wikipedia is no longer short of content and the mediocre stuff can either wait or be stopped before it is created. Anyone who cares for Wikipedia and recognisess that NPP is a foundering process, is invited to come up with effective solutions rather than impede them, and to get cracking on implementing them.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux: I think you are most likely reading this wrong. Your comment:
- Update: I'm not sure if this was what the NPP community really wanted but the rollout that was scheduled by the WMF for next week appears has been successfully blocked. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Atsme, I don't generally trust the Trustees much more than the WMF. I always got the impressions that the Trustees do the WMF's bidding and their main tool is a rubber stamp. I may be wrong, though, times may have changed. Question of which tail is wagging which dog. I don't follow what goes on there, and I have no time for tedious Zoom meetings. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Kudpung: <sigh> Can you expand a bit? What happened and where? Geoff | Who, me? 23:09, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Glane23:, I can understand if not everyone knows what or where Phabricator is (it used to be called Bugzilla), so, <sigh>, here is the link to the Phab task again. Everything you need to know is there → Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
What's happening now?
- @Chris troutman, Extraordinary Writ, MarioGom, Atsme, Barkeep49, Rsjaffe, MB, North8000, Alexandermcnabb, Scottywong, Novem Linguae, and Buidhe: so what's happening now? Has everything stalled? With or without a backlog drive, 100s of totally unsourced articles in the feed are getting dangerously close to the current 90-day limit. Backlog drives never have a permanent impact and constantly need to be repeated. Maybe it's time to do something else - the ACTRIAL and its ACPERM were a resounding successes - perhaps now pushing 'autoconfirmed' out to XCON with a mandatory use of the Article Wizard might be an option to go for. Anyone can still edit Wikipedia, no one needs a PhD to do it, but as DGG says:
the purpose is not just getting articles; it's teaching editors. This is much more difficult and time consuming, and the existing templates do a notably poor job of it
, which clearly echoes what I was saying above at:The reason that so many inappropriate or totally unsuitable new pages are submitted is directly due to the WMF's refusal to do anything about it - despite the constant begging for a proper new user welcome page. [...] the English Wikipedia is no longer short of content and the mediocre stuff can either wait or be stopped before it is created.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC)- In addition to the backlog drive, the last two newsletters and Buidhe's recruitment efforts have attracted a number of a new patrollers, and I've been working through this list to find candidates for autopatrolled (I know we both have reservations about that right, but if nothing else it's effective at getting the backlog down). The backlog is going down now: by about 200 articles a day for the last ten days, which if sustained will get us under 10000 again by mid-July and theoretically to zero in a couple of months. As for permanent solutions... extended confirmed is a massive hurdle compared to autoconfirmed and I highly doubt you'd find consensus for an ACXCON. What I'm curious about is why we seemingly get cyclical backlogs like this every two years or so. We talk a lot about the number of reviewers and how many reviews they're doing, but there are other variables that could have just as much of an influence on the backlog: rate of article creation, proportion of articles autopatrolled, time taken to review each article, regularity of reviewing, etc. Maybe getting data on these would generate new ideas. – Joe (talk) 09:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- One issue that confuses us is assuming that the backlog number (which is very essential and useful) indicates more than it does. At any given moment, there are only about 10-20 days worth of manual reviews sitting in backlog. The tiniest shift in our overall "equation" (of incomming articles vs. reviews getting done) causes large changes in the backlog. But it's basically all that we have. Many of the the indicators that would also be very useful are not available. North8000 (talk) 10:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- The swings in the backlog over the last year or two directly correspond to some top reviewers quitting NPP or coming back. The top reviewers I am thinking of are Onel5969 and John B123. Their efforts are appreciated and they are missed. Not sure about trends over a longer time period. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:01, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are getting to the main huge topic which I avoided trying to get into here.North8000 (talk) 11:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's certainly a recurring issue. I forget who corresponds to which spike, but the departure of SwisterTwister, for example, way back in 2016, eventually led to a backlog of more than 22,000 articles. But I think it raises more questions than it answers. Why do we end up depending so heavily on one or two reviewers, who inevitably burn out? When the backlog is low, for example, does one person taking all the low-hanging fruit lessen the engagement of other reviewers and set us up for a crisis down the line? – Joe (talk) 11:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- OK, so I'll dive in. Wikipedia runs on volunteers doing what they enjoy doing, (with some "doing it for a good cause" thrown into that "enjoy" equation) For most reviewers, due to the nature of things, reviewing is an extremely painful, slow process. Then after they hit a certain threshold, where they have fluency in the zillion words of guidelines, policies, venues, have learned that it's a big fuzzy system where they have to make judgement calls, where they need to have a thick skin, and where they realize that they don't have to feel guilty about not reviewing for all of the areas where the article needs fixing / development then it becomes less slow and painful and the evolve into one of the reviewers with bigger numbers who numerically get most of this week's work done. And once in a while they evolve further in all of theses areas and also put in more time they become one of the huge-number rock stars....a handful of them could knock a 14k backlog down to 4k in a week. And then when they leave the opposite can happen. Aside from getting a few things elsewhere in Wikipedia fixed, our best approach would be to get good experienced people started, and then help them develop into the category where it becomes less painful and slow and guilt-ridden to review articles. It's not just about getting the bunch of articles that is in the backlog done, it's about attaining & maintaining the horsepower to keep it in check painlessly. North8000 (talk) 12:21, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's cyclical in that BOTs are being used (they get caught & stopped, but over time, new ones are introduced and resume the spamming), plus we're getting translations from other Wikis by the 100s, and we're getting a lot of new article submissions from South Asia and the Middle East, which creates more redirects and AfDs. Add to that, seasonal sports, new movies and lists. Atsme 💬 📧 15:12, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- OK, so I'll dive in. Wikipedia runs on volunteers doing what they enjoy doing, (with some "doing it for a good cause" thrown into that "enjoy" equation) For most reviewers, due to the nature of things, reviewing is an extremely painful, slow process. Then after they hit a certain threshold, where they have fluency in the zillion words of guidelines, policies, venues, have learned that it's a big fuzzy system where they have to make judgement calls, where they need to have a thick skin, and where they realize that they don't have to feel guilty about not reviewing for all of the areas where the article needs fixing / development then it becomes less slow and painful and the evolve into one of the reviewers with bigger numbers who numerically get most of this week's work done. And once in a while they evolve further in all of theses areas and also put in more time they become one of the huge-number rock stars....a handful of them could knock a 14k backlog down to 4k in a week. And then when they leave the opposite can happen. Aside from getting a few things elsewhere in Wikipedia fixed, our best approach would be to get good experienced people started, and then help them develop into the category where it becomes less painful and slow and guilt-ridden to review articles. It's not just about getting the bunch of articles that is in the backlog done, it's about attaining & maintaining the horsepower to keep it in check painlessly. North8000 (talk) 12:21, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's certainly a recurring issue. I forget who corresponds to which spike, but the departure of SwisterTwister, for example, way back in 2016, eventually led to a backlog of more than 22,000 articles. But I think it raises more questions than it answers. Why do we end up depending so heavily on one or two reviewers, who inevitably burn out? When the backlog is low, for example, does one person taking all the low-hanging fruit lessen the engagement of other reviewers and set us up for a crisis down the line? – Joe (talk) 11:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- You are getting to the main huge topic which I avoided trying to get into here.North8000 (talk) 11:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- A proper new user welcome page would probably help a bit. Something that is displayed to a user when they're about to create their first new article, pointing them in all the right directions and setting their expectations. Perhaps it's worthwhile for someone to put together a page where we can brainstorm all the requirements for such a page, and maybe even put together a draft of the page itself and present it either to the wider community or WMF. Or maybe this has been done already? I think it's a bit unrealistic to just tell the WMF to "make a better welcome page" without even telling them what problems we're trying to solve or giving any suggestions for what should be on that page. —ScottyWong— 20:45, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- I did it Scottywong, several times, that why I keep mentioning it. But it's got swept under the carpet and lost in the annals of time and on dead Mac computers, just like the Article Wizard that I painstakingly rewrote and a newbie just went and reverted it all. I have worked successfully with the WMF to get several things done for NPP, but my main complaint is that the volunteers are expected be doing the leg work (i.e. coding) on things that should be paid for, but AFAIK, no one among the 550 paid staff has skills in developing things within the scope of UX and they don't appreciate it very much when someone hands them a beautiful GUI and says, now code this in MediaWiki for us. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:05, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do any of these drafts still exist somewhere on WP? —ScottyWong— 10:56, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Scottywong: 'swept under the carpet and lost in the annals of time', but I expect I could recreate them easily enough - reluctantly. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:35, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Do any of these drafts still exist somewhere on WP? —ScottyWong— 10:56, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- I did it Scottywong, several times, that why I keep mentioning it. But it's got swept under the carpet and lost in the annals of time and on dead Mac computers, just like the Article Wizard that I painstakingly rewrote and a newbie just went and reverted it all. I have worked successfully with the WMF to get several things done for NPP, but my main complaint is that the volunteers are expected be doing the leg work (i.e. coding) on things that should be paid for, but AFAIK, no one among the 550 paid staff has skills in developing things within the scope of UX and they don't appreciate it very much when someone hands them a beautiful GUI and says, now code this in MediaWiki for us. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:05, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- If we follow exactly the NPP instructions, we will never be able to handle things; when we have come near doing so is by using judgement for which articles are fundamentally ok and which aren't, and proceeding accordingly. Judging this takes experience, not just good understanding of the rules. Similarly with editors--it makes not minutes but hours to really teach someone, and I try it more than most, but I have never attempted more than 1 or 2 per week. (I've mostly worked at AfC not NPP the last few years, but I consider that almost identical, except that at NPP its safe to assume 90% of the material is coi.
- I have lately become much less willing to continue. In a few special areas I am the only one handling them fluently, or even handling them at all, is extremely discouraging--and I'm sure many experienced reviewers find themselves similar trying to cope with their own areas of interest almost unaided. The likely result is that many more articles will be mistakenly accepted or rejected. AfD is no substitute, for it requires the at least equal judgment. We will end by discouraging good contributors in unusual areas; we will also be letting through much more junk, but at least those can be dealt with later along with the half million similar junk accumulated over 21 years. Finding new contributors to replace those who get discouraged is much more difficult. I never expected to do this work as long as I've been doing, which is now 15 years. I had earlier expected that by now we would have new people who could take over--and there are a few, but not enough to replace those of us who are leaving--and the ones who do, mostly need further experience and background to work accurately enough. For people like me or Kudpung, WP is perhaps the most worthwhile work we've done in our lives, but we need to gradually stop before we find ourselves forced to. DGG ( talk ) 03:03, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for that DGG, I'm sure it will strike a chord with our long-time reviewers and NPP/AfC activists.Wikipedia has matured and most of the traditional encyclopedic areas are covered and maintained by topic experts who quietly get on with their work. As the Internet becomes more accessible in developing regions and smartphones can be bought for a few dollars, the vast majority of today's new article submissions mainly comprises football (soccer) bios, other sports people and events, Bollywood, hardly intelligible English, vanity pages, spam, and pure junk. This makes the patrolling of new pages a tedious, boring, and soul destroying task and an increasing number of articles being pushed into draftspace.
- Most new users (and some older ones too) resent being taught - believing it's their right to dump what they like in Wikipedia with the expectation that someone will clean their stuff up for them. It might be The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit, but editing here is still a privilege and there are rules to be followed. It's hardly a wonder that those who apply for the NPP user right give up so soon, leaving 90% of the work to 10% of the patrollers who then burn out and leave anyway. Like DGG, I'm sure that most patrollers go for the low-hanging fruit and/or topics in their own knowledge areas; I know I do.
- Unfortunately users like DGG and me are no longer spring chickens and very few of the current active reviewers have a long institutional memory or solid experience. As the curation tools get better (and they are a vast improvement on what we were using 12 or 15 years ago) the rate of detection of abuse of privileges gets better and this has led to the alarming discovery that even after the Orangemoody affair a few years ago, we are probably still only scratching the surface. . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:04, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
July 5 update
It looks like there isn't clear consensus on how much notification/discussion is needed to determine the consensus on this issue. The hangup really is about indefinite, which is favored philosophically by most NPPers to ensure nothing is externally visible by without review. Since there is little to no opposition to extending from 90 days, I just asked at the phab to implement 365 days at least as an interim step. I think we should take that for now if we can get it to give some immediate relief. MB 17:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can get someone uninvolved to do a compromise closing - it can always be revisited. From above there seem to be 2 very-related issues that are going on: (a) Pages that aren't reviewed for a 90 days fall off the reviewing tool view. I don't think there is anyone that objects to making that longer of itself. (b) Pages that aren't reviewed for 90 days become indexible - that is what has more differing opinions. Now, these appear to be very linked in that (a) seems to just be a view of pages in (b), but if they were divorced from each other (a) being indefinite seems to be fine while values for (b) get hashed out. I don't think the system currently supports that though? — xaosflux Talk 19:04, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- (a) shouldn't be an issue. Special:NewPagesFeed shows all unreviewed pages regardless of age. I believe this discussion has been entirely about (b). –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae so there is nothing that will hinder the patrollers from continuing to patrol pages and have a queue of unpatrolled pages? Some of the comments above suggested that this would be hampered. — xaosflux Talk 21:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Xaosflux, as NL said above, this is entirely about (b). Articles never fall off the reviewing tool view. For example, I just looked at the NPP feed and there are articles going back to 2007 - but those are usually (or probably always) redirects newly turned into articles that still carry the original creation date. The oldest "new" article in the queue is from January 22 of this year. I assure you that in your scenario above, Alice's "fine start-class article" would be reviewed promptly. There are always some reviewers who look at the newest articles and pick off the "lowest hanging fruit". I do that myself in a few topic areas whenever I have a few spare minutes. The old articles that are still unreviewed (and those that we want to remain no-indexed) have usually been looked at by several reviewers, are often stubs, and usually have tags for notability, possible UPE, possible copyvio, etc. These get held up until someone comes along who is willing to spend the time looking for additional sources, translating foreign languages sources, etc. and determine it is fine, or become confident enough to send it to AFD. There has been a lot of VP discussion on shifting the burden for proving notability to the article creator and allowing more liberal draftification of articles that fall short based on their present state (the sources in the article), but that is unlikely to gain consensus. So for the time being, we are stuck here with a lot of difficult articles to review. As having a WP article is so valuable today, there is an endless stream of new articles on NN people and companies. These promotional type articles especially should not be indexed until they have passed NPP. Hope that helps explain things better. MB 23:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, so there is nothing that is preventing patrollers from patrolling, and this is all about if we should extend the auto-indexing-of-unpatrolled value. That is what I expected was going on - but was trying to be sure to not miss anything in the comments above suggesting that this proposal only impacts reviewers, while it actually has very little impact on their own volunteer workflow - it impacts authors and readers. I contributed above and am personally fine with some of he proposed extensions. — xaosflux Talk 23:39, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a matter of perspective. This does not impact reviewers' workflow, but it diminishes their work if there is a backdoor way to get a fully-visible WP article. This is another reason (and there are others) for people to say why bother with NPP and go do something else. The only "impact" to readers and authors is that borderline articles are harder to find. IMO, people who care about seeing their article appear in a google search are probably trying to promote something - and that shouldn't be a priority to us. MB 00:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- I already supported extending it above, was just making sure we didn't have something else going on that breaks the workflow unnecessarily. For example, we have a cutoff on other RCP workflows - but we have a much larger technical challenge trying to extend the entire RCP tables much further as the incoming data is much higher. — xaosflux Talk 01:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- You supported extending it only to 180 or 365, and if I am not mistaken, are one of only 3-4, and probably the most vocal, opponents of going indefinite. The phab is on hold pending some indication that there is a "community consensus". Although indefinite is still a topic for discussion, I hope extending to 365 is recognized as having clear support and this, at least, is implemented ASAP. MB 01:42, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- I already supported extending it above, was just making sure we didn't have something else going on that breaks the workflow unnecessarily. For example, we have a cutoff on other RCP workflows - but we have a much larger technical challenge trying to extend the entire RCP tables much further as the incoming data is much higher. — xaosflux Talk 01:09, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a matter of perspective. This does not impact reviewers' workflow, but it diminishes their work if there is a backdoor way to get a fully-visible WP article. This is another reason (and there are others) for people to say why bother with NPP and go do something else. The only "impact" to readers and authors is that borderline articles are harder to find. IMO, people who care about seeing their article appear in a google search are probably trying to promote something - and that shouldn't be a priority to us. MB 00:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, so there is nothing that is preventing patrollers from patrolling, and this is all about if we should extend the auto-indexing-of-unpatrolled value. That is what I expected was going on - but was trying to be sure to not miss anything in the comments above suggesting that this proposal only impacts reviewers, while it actually has very little impact on their own volunteer workflow - it impacts authors and readers. I contributed above and am personally fine with some of he proposed extensions. — xaosflux Talk 23:39, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Xaosflux, as NL said above, this is entirely about (b). Articles never fall off the reviewing tool view. For example, I just looked at the NPP feed and there are articles going back to 2007 - but those are usually (or probably always) redirects newly turned into articles that still carry the original creation date. The oldest "new" article in the queue is from January 22 of this year. I assure you that in your scenario above, Alice's "fine start-class article" would be reviewed promptly. There are always some reviewers who look at the newest articles and pick off the "lowest hanging fruit". I do that myself in a few topic areas whenever I have a few spare minutes. The old articles that are still unreviewed (and those that we want to remain no-indexed) have usually been looked at by several reviewers, are often stubs, and usually have tags for notability, possible UPE, possible copyvio, etc. These get held up until someone comes along who is willing to spend the time looking for additional sources, translating foreign languages sources, etc. and determine it is fine, or become confident enough to send it to AFD. There has been a lot of VP discussion on shifting the burden for proving notability to the article creator and allowing more liberal draftification of articles that fall short based on their present state (the sources in the article), but that is unlikely to gain consensus. So for the time being, we are stuck here with a lot of difficult articles to review. As having a WP article is so valuable today, there is an endless stream of new articles on NN people and companies. These promotional type articles especially should not be indexed until they have passed NPP. Hope that helps explain things better. MB 23:29, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae so there is nothing that will hinder the patrollers from continuing to patrol pages and have a queue of unpatrolled pages? Some of the comments above suggested that this would be hampered. — xaosflux Talk 21:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- (a) shouldn't be an issue. Special:NewPagesFeed shows all unreviewed pages regardless of age. I believe this discussion has been entirely about (b). –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing
I am wondering whether NPP (and AfC to a lesser extent) collectively should be a party to this or at least some statement should be submitted about NPPs concerns, since we have several active discussions on this page revolving around the issues of delete/draft/noindex. Slywriter (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm eligible to provide evidence and will be happy to present a consensus view in that case. Atsme 💬 📧 15:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Almost everyone is "eligible to provide evidence", but not everyone is best placed to present some "consensus" view, as if that would be wanted. Judging from User talk:Fram#Youth Olympics, there is more chance of you becoming a party than anything else. If for some reason a "consensus" view of this project would be wanted (no idea why), best leave it to someone uncontroversial to post it perhaps? I just reverted one of your ref insertions on an article I recently nominated for deletion, as your ref didn't support even the single thing it tried to[1]. Like I said before, I wonder whether you should be involved with NPP at all, seeing how difficult it is for you to get sourcing or many other things right. Fram (talk) 09:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Fram's talking about this discussion. BTW, he nominated that list for deletion, and it was properly closed by Ritchie333 as no consensus. I simply tried to help find sources, and his comment above is what happened as a result. Isn't that lovely? I thought it rather ironic for him to show up here to criticize my efforts and cast aspersions against me while Liz just speedy deleted 21 categories he created. Perhaps that ArbCom case needs a closer look at the editor who filed it, not those of us who want to help the whole NPP process by providing evidence. Atsme 💬 📧 00:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I can't help it if you are not aware that categories are "speedy deleted" all the time when they are renamed, as renaming a category means creating a new category, moving all articles from the old to the new, and then speedy deleting the old category as empty. Speedy deleting a category like this is the same as moving an article, and is often done in batches as many categories follow the same patterns. What these "deletions" have to do with the Arbcom case is not clear, and is again an indication of why you are probably not the best person to present yourself as some representative of NPP (never mind that the case has very little to do with NPP in the first place). And yes, you "simply tried to help find sources", which resulted in you putting in a source which didn't support the simple fact it supposedly referenced. Which, coupled with previous experiences with you, makes me doubt how you can effectively contribute to AfD, or NPP. And your initial comment, about how you are "eligible to provide evidence", is either a complete misunderstanding of how an Arbcom case works, or some attempt to make you look more important and special than you really are. But feel free to make your case about how the editors at the case somehow make NPP harder. Fram (talk) 08:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's the other way around Fram. It's other editors' experiences with you, including at AfD and yes, I was invited to provide evidence at the current ArbCom case, but it's not my desire to get anyone in trouble. I prefer to find peaceful remedies without the drama. My reference to Liz's deletions was to draw your attention away from me so you could go help Liz because you obviously have other work you could be doing rather than hounding and casting aspersions against me. Perhaps you don't realize the negative effects of your bad behavior, especially considering that it's over a non-issue, and an AfD dating back to 2018 that I politely asked you for input a month ago. I admit that asking you for anything was my mistake. I was wrong to think you had changed for the better, but here you r hounding and bullying another female editor. I've already asked you to stop the behavior on your UTP, and you refused - basically telling me that you were going to continue. Find another target in your weight-class, Fram, because this gal ain't taking your bait. Atsme 💬 📧 20:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- "I was invited to give evidence at the current Arbcom case", is that the source of your confusion? That generic message to all people who commented in the case request, without any indication that the committee really is waiting for your evidence with baited breath or has especially singled you out and declared you "eligible"? Okay... No idea how I am supposed to help Liz with long-since deleted routine cat cleanup. Anyway, if it makes it happy to think that my problem is with you being a women and not with your problematic editing, then feel free to dream on. I probably started this very ArbCom case against two men just to be able to bully a woman, sure. Fram (talk) 07:30, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's the other way around Fram. It's other editors' experiences with you, including at AfD and yes, I was invited to provide evidence at the current ArbCom case, but it's not my desire to get anyone in trouble. I prefer to find peaceful remedies without the drama. My reference to Liz's deletions was to draw your attention away from me so you could go help Liz because you obviously have other work you could be doing rather than hounding and casting aspersions against me. Perhaps you don't realize the negative effects of your bad behavior, especially considering that it's over a non-issue, and an AfD dating back to 2018 that I politely asked you for input a month ago. I admit that asking you for anything was my mistake. I was wrong to think you had changed for the better, but here you r hounding and bullying another female editor. I've already asked you to stop the behavior on your UTP, and you refused - basically telling me that you were going to continue. Find another target in your weight-class, Fram, because this gal ain't taking your bait. Atsme 💬 📧 20:34, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I can't help it if you are not aware that categories are "speedy deleted" all the time when they are renamed, as renaming a category means creating a new category, moving all articles from the old to the new, and then speedy deleting the old category as empty. Speedy deleting a category like this is the same as moving an article, and is often done in batches as many categories follow the same patterns. What these "deletions" have to do with the Arbcom case is not clear, and is again an indication of why you are probably not the best person to present yourself as some representative of NPP (never mind that the case has very little to do with NPP in the first place). And yes, you "simply tried to help find sources", which resulted in you putting in a source which didn't support the simple fact it supposedly referenced. Which, coupled with previous experiences with you, makes me doubt how you can effectively contribute to AfD, or NPP. And your initial comment, about how you are "eligible to provide evidence", is either a complete misunderstanding of how an Arbcom case works, or some attempt to make you look more important and special than you really are. But feel free to make your case about how the editors at the case somehow make NPP harder. Fram (talk) 08:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Fram's talking about this discussion. BTW, he nominated that list for deletion, and it was properly closed by Ritchie333 as no consensus. I simply tried to help find sources, and his comment above is what happened as a result. Isn't that lovely? I thought it rather ironic for him to show up here to criticize my efforts and cast aspersions against me while Liz just speedy deleted 21 categories he created. Perhaps that ArbCom case needs a closer look at the editor who filed it, not those of us who want to help the whole NPP process by providing evidence. Atsme 💬 📧 00:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Almost everyone is "eligible to provide evidence", but not everyone is best placed to present some "consensus" view, as if that would be wanted. Judging from User talk:Fram#Youth Olympics, there is more chance of you becoming a party than anything else. If for some reason a "consensus" view of this project would be wanted (no idea why), best leave it to someone uncontroversial to post it perhaps? I just reverted one of your ref insertions on an article I recently nominated for deletion, as your ref didn't support even the single thing it tried to[1]. Like I said before, I wonder whether you should be involved with NPP at all, seeing how difficult it is for you to get sourcing or many other things right. Fram (talk) 09:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- A collective party to an ArbCom case would be pretty unusual and at this point the parties are set and unlikely to change. Any editor can submit evidence individually and if you think your experiences at NPP are relevant to the case (which has "a specific focus on [the three] named parties") you should feel free. I would note that two of the drafting arbs (Barkeep49 and CaptainEek) are old hands at NPP/AfC, so it's unlikely they're going to overlook issues of general relevance to this project. – Joe (talk) 15:06, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I can't imagine supporting a collective party to this case or any other. Both of our full cases this year have involved groups of people (GSoW and a Discord server) and we named specific editors not groups. But a small correction: the parties to this case are explicitly not set. See more on how that works here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- While I am interested and concerned about NPP and AfC, and have had some very in-depth conversations about reforming them, I'm not so sure we're having behavioral issues in those areas. If anything, my sense is that we have problems in those areas only because they are either too complex or we don't have enough volunteer hours to put into them. But if you have evidence to dispute that, you're welcome to drop it on my talk page. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 18:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Behavior is certainly not the issue. For the most part, this seems to be quite functional as far collaboration and collegiality go. My concern was if ArbCom is going to take a deep dive into AfD and that it's decisions go beyond behavioral that NPPers would be bound to the results of a case that it had no voice in. NPP triggers many PRODS, CSD and AfDs and as evidenced by the threads above is trying to sort out just how to handle those processes against the larger policies of N, V, and OR.
- With that said, it is unlikely even a consensus statement could be generated by NPP in the short time if it was proper to do so, so all I can hope is that the Arbs are mindful of the discussions occurring here (and with the larger community at Village Pump) surrounding the issues of deletion and draftifying of articles as to some extent, the individuals are proxies for the larger community, even if their specific behavior is the impetus for taking the case. Slywriter (talk) 19:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- While I am interested and concerned about NPP and AfC, and have had some very in-depth conversations about reforming them, I'm not so sure we're having behavioral issues in those areas. If anything, my sense is that we have problems in those areas only because they are either too complex or we don't have enough volunteer hours to put into them. But if you have evidence to dispute that, you're welcome to drop it on my talk page. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 18:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I can't imagine supporting a collective party to this case or any other. Both of our full cases this year have involved groups of people (GSoW and a Discord server) and we named specific editors not groups. But a small correction: the parties to this case are explicitly not set. See more on how that works here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Proposal
I won't repeat the background and rationale and instead just make the following propsal:
- At New Page Patrol, for topics which do not satisify a Subject-Specific Notability Guidline, we consider adding sources to satisify the sourcing General Notability Guidline to be a main part of starting a new article. A common NPP practice for those articles is to move them to draft areas so that sources to satisify GNG may be added if they exist
I'd like to let this sit for a day to elicit/make any tweaks and then gauge support / opposition here. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- What happens when the editor decides to ignore the draft and recreate a new version in mainspace which is allowed under current draftify policy? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS. I strongly support your proposal. Just think we need an add on to it to deal with refusal of draftification. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I second rsjaffe's comments. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the policy that concerns me: WP:DRAFTOBJECT. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 19:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- +1 to rsjaffe. I believe this policy is well-intended, though I feel it gives too much leeway to those who object without a rationale and/or (signs of) active improvement. WP:DRAFTOBJECT in its current form appears to supersede WP:CIR. ComplexRational (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS. I strongly support your proposal. Just think we need an add on to it to deal with refusal of draftification. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
OK, so my revised proposal is:
- At New Page Patrol, for topics which do not satisfy a Subject-Specific Notability Guideline, we consider adding sources to satisfy the sourcing General Notability Guidline to be a main part of starting a new article. A common NPP practice for those articles is to move them to draft areas so that sources to satisfy GNG may be added if they exist. If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD
Note that I said "consider" because we can't say that it will automatically go to AFD because WP:Before requires a GNG source check before doing that. This still leaves open some unresolved issues but IMO it's solid/workable, will reduce the problem, and also provide a tiny start on establishing that putting in GNG sources (when required) is a part of starting an article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:14, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree. Probably will have to take more steps (e.g., remove WP:BEFORE for NPP), but this incremental approach allows non-involved people a good view of the issues. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:55, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm liking this proposal so far. Removing WP:BEFORE and going straight to AfD would have the benefit of potentially drawing wider input (or if not, ending as an expired PROD), though this raises the question of how much are we willing to increase the backlog at AfD.
- One possible step could be a type of modified PROD such that:
- the article has no sources whatsoever that could potentially satisfy GNG (or, more strictly, no sources of any kind at all);
- the content of the article is substantially identical to the draftified version and not undergoing active improvement – thus assuming good faith for works in progress and not slamming the door on improvement;
- no objection in 7 days qualifies the page for deletion;
- the creator of the page may not remove the tag, unlike PROD but rather like many CSD – so as to curtail stubborn, CIR, spammy, etc. behavior, but allow other editors/reviewers to easily object and start an AfD if they deem it appropriate.
- However, I (hopefully) expect that there are only a small number of cases like this, so such a process may be unnecessarily convoluted. ComplexRational (talk) 00:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are dealing with the case where somebody duplicates a draftified article in mainspace. Without commenting on the prevalence or proposal, such would require changes outside of the purview of that of my proposal which confines itself to a statement of NPP norms, one that does not conflict policies and guidelines. In other words, something that we can actually get done, and relatively quickly. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, as that was mentioned above; it can be revisited at another time if necessary. On the short-term, your proposal is a good place to start, though. ComplexRational (talk) 01:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are dealing with the case where somebody duplicates a draftified article in mainspace. Without commenting on the prevalence or proposal, such would require changes outside of the purview of that of my proposal which confines itself to a statement of NPP norms, one that does not conflict policies and guidelines. In other words, something that we can actually get done, and relatively quickly. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support While I wholeheartedly support this, I would also like to see WP:BEFORE removed as a burden on NPP. I would also suggest an additional CSD for undersourced articles sent to Draft which are then moved to mainspace without amendment or going through AfC. Although I suspect that one might be pie in the sky... Best — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandermcnabb (talk • contribs) 07:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this in principle. However it is a bit verbose and lacks precision. I would suggest the way to get this implemented would be to add a bullet to WP:DRAFTIFY formally allowing draftification for poor sourcing. I attempted this back in July 2021 but was reverted. A good next step might be to workshop a one sentence bullet to add to WP:DRAFTIFY, then RFC it on the WP:DRAFTIFY talk page. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:47, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree in principal but have two problems with the wording.
- "those articles" in second sentence at present refers to all topics which do not satisfy a SSNG, not specifying "without sources"
- "we consider adding..." sounds as if we think about adding the sources ourselves: reading further corrects this initial misread, but it puts a wrong idea into the reader's mind.
- So how about:
- At New Page Patrol, for topics which do not satisfy a Subject-Specific Notability Guideline, we consider that adding sources to satisfy the sourcing General Notability Guideline is a main part of starting a new article. A common NPP practice for articles which do not satisfy a Subject-Specific Notability Guideline and do not have sources demonstrating that they satisfy GNG is to move them to draft areas so that sources to satisfy GNG may be added if they exist. If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD.
- Or, more radically:
- At New Page Patrol we consider that adding sources is a main part of starting a new article. A common NPP practice for articles which do not satisfy a Subject-Specific Notability Guideline and do not have sources demonstrating that they satisfy GNG is to move them to draft areas so that sources to satisfy GNG may be added if they exist. If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD.
- I think it says what we mean.
PamD 08:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Final submittal of proposal
I consider PamD's second version to be an improvement on mine and the best. I support the other things which were discussed but which are best handled separately. I hereby submit it for supports and opposes. We can also change it later, and "later" could be a week from now so I request that we review it as is:
- At New Page Patrol we consider that adding sources is a main part of starting a new article. A common NPP practice for articles which do not satisfy a Subject-Specific Notability Guideline and do not have sources demonstrating that they satisfy GNG is to move them to draft areas so that sources to satisfy GNG may be added if they exist. If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD.
North8000 (talk) 12:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Right now this would just be a decision to be recorded here on this talk page. North8000 (talk) 14:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Feedback
- Support As proposer, with credit to PamD. This is safe and will help in a key area but of course will not solve everything. Other good ideas were raised which should be pursued separately. It can be changed later (and "later" can be in 1 week) and suggest we review it as-is. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support As per my above. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 13:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- What is the proposal here? Where is this text to be added? – Joe (talk) 14:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Right now, it would be just a decision recorded here on this talk page. But I plan to also propose or add a tab where NPP talk page decisions that have ongoing relevance be listed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- And what will that list be used for? You and others are saying that this will "help" or "fix" something, but how does simply stating what existing practice is on a talk page do that? NPP is a WikiProject that implements existing community policy with regard to new articles. We've never issued 'resolutions' like this before and it could be seen as an attempt to maintain a parallel set of pseudo-policies... – Joe (talk) 14:51, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Joe, the article creator is notified, and anybody can go to draft and add sources when they have time. This process affords the article creator the opportunity to cite sources and establish notability which requires finding multiple secondary RS, so it really isn't a minute's worth of work for the NPP reviewer as some in other discussions have alluded to. Reviewers customarily offer a helping hand to new editors, and they end up staying with the project rather than hit and run with a half-baked single article. We actually should keep a record of it. Each case will be handled individually because they're not all going to be identical. It's not deletion of an article, it's triage, and that's a good thing. Atsme 💬 📧 20:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- And what will that list be used for? You and others are saying that this will "help" or "fix" something, but how does simply stating what existing practice is on a talk page do that? NPP is a WikiProject that implements existing community policy with regard to new articles. We've never issued 'resolutions' like this before and it could be seen as an attempt to maintain a parallel set of pseudo-policies... – Joe (talk) 14:51, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Right now, it would be just a decision recorded here on this talk page. But I plan to also propose or add a tab where NPP talk page decisions that have ongoing relevance be listed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- support this is existing practice (t · c) buidhe 14:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support As step one in fixing the NPP problem. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 14:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support – per above comments. Even if it's existing practice, I find it helpful to state a concise version of it, which then can be referenced and amended with future proposals. ComplexRational (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support – and I want to share this link with all of you. It actually shows the intent of the "founding father" so to speak - it's kinda like the federalist papers that led to the drafting of the Constitution. Atsme 💬 📧 20:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- support --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - no brainer. It what I do/would do anyway. See further comments below. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:12, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - Yes. I also suggest that we run an RfC to get WP:DRAFTOBJECT changed. We need to move in the direction of requiring new articles to satisfy the GNG to be accepted, not requiring NPP to do a WP:BEFORE search. Bad actors are common, and a drain on our resources. It is time to put a bare minimum onus of responsibility onto article creators. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 13:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support as an existing practice - and, an important step in resolving this NPP issue. --Whiteguru (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support. MarioGom (talk) 17:18, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - no brainer. --Whiteguru (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support I do this anyway, but it is worth stating. scope_creepTalk 23:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support stating this for the record. HouseBlastertalk 00:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support: Per North8000, as a definite help. See comments below. -- Otr500 (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussion
Some folks have said that it is already standard practice. I'm thinking that what they mean is that it is already an available option. Because if it were already standard practice, then the bulk of articles sent to AFD by NPP on notability grounds would be ones already sent to a draft space by NPP and then moved back into mainspace without addition of needed GNG references. I don't think that this is the case.North8000 (talk) 19:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- If I know with 80 percent confidence that the topic is not notable, I do a quick Google then prod/afd. I'm more likely to draftify if I have no idea about the notability and it's hard /impossible to check quickly (t · c) buidhe 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
The main way that it would help is, for a majority of articles needing but lacking GNG sources (including non-wp:notable article/topics) the reference search work will be done by the zillion editors instead of by the small group of overloaded NPP'ers. With obvious benefits here on our capacity/backlog. North8000 (talk) 19:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I think this project needs to be careful so as to not run afoul of WP:LOCALCON. Given the somewhat inconclusive RfC on draftifying - whose close several of us didn't like but hasn't been challenged so it's still the most recent record of consensus - I don't think this wording runs afoul of the broader community consensus. But it comes close. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Understood, but isn't NPP the same as WP:VP? Couldn't we piggyback on the WP:Centralized discussion template, or maybe Wikipedia:Dashboard? Atsme 💬 📧 21:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- We're probably too local for that. But this is narrower and with the scope of policies, guidelines and any broader scope RFC's. Also an option already clearly available and already used by some. North8000 (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't believe this discussion infringes WP:LOCALCON. We're not debating a policy change here, most advice and guidelines are not policy, and the NPP community should be able to decide what's best for its process and practice (think of the current request at Phab to change the 90-day 'NO INDEX' to indefinite which the WMF is now doing its best to stall). I think this proposal probably echoes what many reviewers do anyway, at least those who process huge numbers of new pages.
- IMO, draftification is under-used and reviewers should not be afraid to employ it far more boldly - NPP is not a 'fix-it', while AfC is the field hospital - where most users don't even appreciate the help and advice they get there anyway. It might be tough on the backlogs at AfC, but unlike NPP, AfC has no deadlines and although draftifiying should not be used as a backdoor step to deletion, G13 is an excellent policy especially while after all these years when new users register they are still not provided with any info about what is not acceptable.
- Also, unlike NPP, AfC is still not an official process. If it were, more editors would join it - but because it isn't, the coordinator is almost certainly aware of the hat-collection phenomenon. and he doesn't need a mega RfC to remove the inactive participants. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:00, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- But what are we debating? The proposal above is just floating text; in reply to me above, North8000 says that he might subsequently propose copying it... somewhere, but doesn't say where or when. So what are those "supporting" above actually supporting? Just the sentiment? Amending an existing guideline? Creating a new guideline? If it's either of those last two, then we do have a local consensus problem, because what is proposed contradicts the project-wide policies WP:NOCITE and WP:ATD-I, whether it is the common practice of NPP patrollers or not. And if it's the first, then I don't really see the point. – Joe (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOCITE is not a policy but a guideline. Nothing above violates it, "You may also tag the article with the {{unreferenced}} template and consider nominating it for deletion." is what the above says as well, which is comparable to "If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD". Basically, one of the possibilities given at NOCITE will now be claimed to be the default option for NPP (in both cases, it will be "considered", not mandatory). As for WP:ATD-I, I fail to see how the proposal (unsourced? Move to draft once) contradicts "Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace ("draftified") for improvement". Fram (talk) 11:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe contradict was too a strong a word. But they both outline what should be done with unsourced material, and the gist is try to source it if you can, tag it if you can't but think someone else could, and as a last resort remove or seek its deletion. So it at least needs to be explained how this proposal, which says that sending unsourced content to the black hole that is draftspace is a tool of first resort, is to be squared with that existing approach. The important part of WP:ATD-I is that draftspace must not be used as a backdoor to deletion. If the response to a contested draftification is to send the article to AfD, does that not imply that draftspace is being used as a slow deletion? Why not just send it to Afd in the first place? – Joe (talk) 12:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Joe, what concerns me most is the undercurrent that threatens to change our core content policies, beginning with WP:V, (see the TP), and based on my experiences, it is not for the better. What's being proposed over there will directly affect how NPP approaches unsourced articles, and based on what I've gleaned, will create a tidal wave of contradictions relative to other core content policies and guidelines, not to mention that it's based on a logical fallacy. See my highlighted text at V talk. The level of support for unsourced articles is rather disconcerting, and I can actually see how it would benefit UPE but it does so in a way that will cause harm to the project. What is being proposed at V appears to be the result of Use-mention distinction issues and does not reflect the context of our V or OR policies, much less foresight or common sense, but that's just me wearing my publisher's hat. The proposal above is basically reassurance that policy prevails, even if it does so in a rather oblique manner. Atsme 💬 📧 14:02, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- An article sent to draft space on this basis simply needs the editor to look for GNG sources. If they exist, they add them and send the article back into mainspace. How is that a "black hole"? And the reason / difference is that for the majority of those, the zillion editors are doing the source search rather than a handful of NPP'ers who are trying to handle the ~700 articles per day that need manual review. Sincerely North8000 (talk) 12:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's the theory, but it rarely actually happens. In the vast majority of cases, articles go to draftspace to die. There certainly aren't a "zillion" editors waiting to save random drafts from CSD G13 (in fact as far as I'm aware, there's pretty much only one, DGG). But this is a well-worn debate that we're not going to settle here. The important question, which as the 'proposer' you've still curiously declined to answer, is what are you actually proposing? – Joe (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Joe What we are proposing is to make draftification without WP:BEFORE to be common practice at NPP. While Draftification is a useful tool, and many are using it already, it isn't written up as part of our current workflow in this way. We need some way to sidestep WP:BEFORE for unsourced or poorly-sourced articles because WP:BEFORE has become a drain on NPP resources that is unsustainable. We don't have enough reviewers to manually perform reference searches for every article under the sun, the onus on this needs to change to the article creator to add a bare minimum (WP:42, basically). Current policy doesn't allow deletion in such cases... well, for unsourced material, it logically should be supported by WP:BURDEN (and I have seen redirection used extensively in such cases, justified by WP:V), but for new articles that fail to demonstrate the GNG, but still include sources, draftification is our best option. You say that the vast majority go to draft space to die... the fact that new articles creators are too lazy to come back to their draft and copy and paste a couple of URLs is not our fault. NPP is not an orphanage that is required to take in and raise any unwanted infant unceremoniously dumped on our doorstep. Competence is required, and we can't afford to handhold every newbie through the process (in a perfect world it would be great if we could, but we simply do not have the manpower). — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 13:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm really flabbergasted to hear such contempt for new editors coming from a former NPP coordinator. Not knowing our byzantine sourcing requirements does not make someone a child. You should know as well as anyone that there's a reason NPP's current workflow limits the use of draftification, because we have to work within the bounds of existing policy. If someone wants to change the policy, best of luck to them, but a subsectioned pseudo-RfC on WT:NPR isn't the way to do it. And in the meantime, I don't understand why we aren't content to just follow the instructions and tag unsourced articles. It's literally the fastest way to deal with them and it's fully supported by existing consensus. – Joe (talk) 14:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think a good reason to not do that is it just passes the buck to the ever growing backlog of 80k+ articles with {{blpsources}} or 350k+ articles with {{refimprove}}, where they will likely never have their sourcing improved, or any sourcing to show notability added. AfD isn't equipped to handle anywhere near the number of AfDs that would be created by actually AfDing all the articles that don't have any claim to notability, and NPP just tagging with {{refimprove}} and shrugging is just shoveling shit into a different pile that no one will ever be able to work through. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, in an ideal world we'd have no unsourced articles. In an ideal world, NPP would do all the necessary improvements and we'd have no cleanup backlogs at all. But we're having this conversation in the context of an alarming backlog at NPP. So why on earth are we pulling our hair out over the difficulty of doing a job that nobody ever asked NPP to do? – Joe (talk) 09:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think a good reason to not do that is it just passes the buck to the ever growing backlog of 80k+ articles with {{blpsources}} or 350k+ articles with {{refimprove}}, where they will likely never have their sourcing improved, or any sourcing to show notability added. AfD isn't equipped to handle anywhere near the number of AfDs that would be created by actually AfDing all the articles that don't have any claim to notability, and NPP just tagging with {{refimprove}} and shrugging is just shoveling shit into a different pile that no one will ever be able to work through. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm really flabbergasted to hear such contempt for new editors coming from a former NPP coordinator. Not knowing our byzantine sourcing requirements does not make someone a child. You should know as well as anyone that there's a reason NPP's current workflow limits the use of draftification, because we have to work within the bounds of existing policy. If someone wants to change the policy, best of luck to them, but a subsectioned pseudo-RfC on WT:NPR isn't the way to do it. And in the meantime, I don't understand why we aren't content to just follow the instructions and tag unsourced articles. It's literally the fastest way to deal with them and it's fully supported by existing consensus. – Joe (talk) 14:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Joe What we are proposing is to make draftification without WP:BEFORE to be common practice at NPP. While Draftification is a useful tool, and many are using it already, it isn't written up as part of our current workflow in this way. We need some way to sidestep WP:BEFORE for unsourced or poorly-sourced articles because WP:BEFORE has become a drain on NPP resources that is unsustainable. We don't have enough reviewers to manually perform reference searches for every article under the sun, the onus on this needs to change to the article creator to add a bare minimum (WP:42, basically). Current policy doesn't allow deletion in such cases... well, for unsourced material, it logically should be supported by WP:BURDEN (and I have seen redirection used extensively in such cases, justified by WP:V), but for new articles that fail to demonstrate the GNG, but still include sources, draftification is our best option. You say that the vast majority go to draft space to die... the fact that new articles creators are too lazy to come back to their draft and copy and paste a couple of URLs is not our fault. NPP is not an orphanage that is required to take in and raise any unwanted infant unceremoniously dumped on our doorstep. Competence is required, and we can't afford to handhold every newbie through the process (in a perfect world it would be great if we could, but we simply do not have the manpower). — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 13:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's the theory, but it rarely actually happens. In the vast majority of cases, articles go to draftspace to die. There certainly aren't a "zillion" editors waiting to save random drafts from CSD G13 (in fact as far as I'm aware, there's pretty much only one, DGG). But this is a well-worn debate that we're not going to settle here. The important question, which as the 'proposer' you've still curiously declined to answer, is what are you actually proposing? – Joe (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe contradict was too a strong a word. But they both outline what should be done with unsourced material, and the gist is try to source it if you can, tag it if you can't but think someone else could, and as a last resort remove or seek its deletion. So it at least needs to be explained how this proposal, which says that sending unsourced content to the black hole that is draftspace is a tool of first resort, is to be squared with that existing approach. The important part of WP:ATD-I is that draftspace must not be used as a backdoor to deletion. If the response to a contested draftification is to send the article to AfD, does that not imply that draftspace is being used as a slow deletion? Why not just send it to Afd in the first place? – Joe (talk) 12:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOCITE is not a policy but a guideline. Nothing above violates it, "You may also tag the article with the {{unreferenced}} template and consider nominating it for deletion." is what the above says as well, which is comparable to "If an article that was moved to a draft area on that basis is moved back to mainspace without addition of those sources, a common NPP practice will be to consider taking the article to AFD". Basically, one of the possibilities given at NOCITE will now be claimed to be the default option for NPP (in both cases, it will be "considered", not mandatory). As for WP:ATD-I, I fail to see how the proposal (unsourced? Move to draft once) contradicts "Recently created articles that have potential, but that do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the draft namespace ("draftified") for improvement". Fram (talk) 11:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think this language flies in the face of an RfC which which closed yesterday that found a strong consensus against mandating such draftiification. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the issue isn't it? People who don't do the work are happy to tell us how it has to be done. If we go on strike I don't think that the rest of the community is going to step up and do the reviewing of the 14,000 and raising backlog are they? Basically, we're fucked. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 13:57, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's a pretty common issue with anything that gets done on the wiki. People see a process they're not involved with and don't take part in and say, "but it would be so much better if it was done this way." And then you get a consensus from people who didn't do it to begin with that the people actually doing it have to put more effort in. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- As I understand, the RfC also discussed mandatory draftification of extant unsourced articles (some as old as 2007), which we're not discussing here. The pressing issue here is somewhat narrower in scope – namely the widespread creation of articles where the creator can, but doesn't, provide sources that might satisfy GNG, and that many times these articles are left unfinished or the creator stubbornly refuses draftification (also, in the latter case, I highly doubt a PROD would be uncontested). By filtering out such cases, the limited manpower of NPP can be better utilized elsewhere and there may be hope in reducing the backlog. ComplexRational (talk) 14:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes I agree that's the issue isn't it @Insertcleverphrasehere. I don't think we've done a good job of educating the community about our struggles and challenges and to be clear I deserve specific blame for this given my focus having changed from NPP to ArbCom. I don't know how much of the community understands just how little work is being done on reviewing new articles, and in fairness some who do understand don't find lack of new article review a problem. So I do think rather than rejecting broader community consensus - as I feel like we're flirting with here - I think we need to find ways to shape and harness community consensus. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's a pretty common issue with anything that gets done on the wiki. People see a process they're not involved with and don't take part in and say, "but it would be so much better if it was done this way." And then you get a consensus from people who didn't do it to begin with that the people actually doing it have to put more effort in. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the issue isn't it? People who don't do the work are happy to tell us how it has to be done. If we go on strike I don't think that the rest of the community is going to step up and do the reviewing of the 14,000 and raising backlog are they? Basically, we're fucked. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 13:57, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That RFC was about instituting a big list of mandatory, categorical and automatic rules including things like often forbidding moving articles from draft space to mainspace. I commented but would have never supported such a thing. IMO rejection of that is not related to this. North8000 (talk) 17:02, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- But what are we debating? The proposal above is just floating text; in reply to me above, North8000 says that he might subsequently propose copying it... somewhere, but doesn't say where or when. So what are those "supporting" above actually supporting? Just the sentiment? Amending an existing guideline? Creating a new guideline? If it's either of those last two, then we do have a local consensus problem, because what is proposed contradicts the project-wide policies WP:NOCITE and WP:ATD-I, whether it is the common practice of NPP patrollers or not. And if it's the first, then I don't really see the point. – Joe (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- There can be no set of fixed rules for new contributions, because there are many different ways and degrees of problems. I've worked with various aspects of this at PROD and AfD and NPP and AFC for the 15 years I've been here; though there are repeating patterns, and unnambiguous cases, but for probably most new contributions there is no way of proceeding except to consider each contribution individually, and to choose the route that is most like to get potentially satisfactory material improved and accepted, and material which can be not made satisfactory removed.
- The basis of the system is redundancy--decisions at any of the various methods are never final. For even the worst contribution it may be possible that new sources and a new editior -- and developments in the topic--may give the potential for an acceptable articles. For even what may seem an excellent contribution, it may happen that copyvio or paid coi may be uncovered, or tat someone more carefuly reading the sources may realize it it unsupported. AfC is intended as a screen: it works on the realistic basis that coi articles and articles by new editors are very likely not to be satisfactory in any of a variety of ways, and they can sometimes be handled summarily; the only alternative to using it is to deal with everything at NPP. It's not intended to result in finished articles, just in articles that have potential, and the basic concept still holds, that we should pass anything that has a reasonable chance of passing AfD where the community can look at it.
- the purpose is not just getting articles; it's teaching editors. This is much more difficult and time consuming, and the existing templates do a notably poor job of it. As it may sometimes be our only chance to instruct a new contributor before they disappear, it rquires reviews with judgment not just of articles, but of contributors, and willing to devote the time to it. This is a counsel of perfetion--we have always had so many new articles that they cannot be handled properly unless a much greater number of experienced reviewers deal with them than has every been the case.
- There is a real limitation of AfC that I have in the past not adequately taken into consideration--there is no point in using it to decline a draft unless the orginal contributor is still around, or unless the reviewer is themselves willing to fix it to a minimal extent.
- As mentioned above, I have in fact tried to do this for a very limited range of drafts in my principal areas of interest, and several others have also tried in theirs. Unfortunately, I can no longer keep up even by limiting my areas, and, as I've posted at WT:AfC, I have found it necessary to abandon the effort except sporadically, and my disappointment in this has greatly affected my willingness to work at WP at all. Anyone counting on me as a backstop should be aware that I may not be available.
- But with respect to sourcing--our quality has never been adequate. It has certainly increased since I joined in 2006, and a great many of the articles started then would never have been accepted today, and we are furthermore left with a legacy of at least a million inadequately sourced articles. This gives us choices, none of the really all that good: we can bring them all up to current standards -- which could only be done if we convince hundreds of editors to work on them, , or we remove the inadequate ones --even tho we will be deleting notable and sourceable articles, or we leave them inadequately sourced, but insist new ones be sourced properly. What we do not want to do is lower our standards back to what they were 15 years ago. DGG ( talk ) 18:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Need a second set of eyes on this
One user, Littlefriendlyghost, is on a BLP creation rampage. Today alone they created 5 new biographies and a total of 8 since the 16th. Couple of things cause some concern, with one mitigating factor.
Concern that this is an UPE is that there isn't any theme or nexus that would pique the interest of a random editor in all the people being portrayed. The editor has 17 live edits, 8 of which are page creations. Also, one page created was deleted under G11 and A7 (advertising and no indication of significance).
Mitigating factor is that the editor, on their user page, essentially states that this is a new user id because they lost their credentials to their former id. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- New pages: Ethan Striker, Brad Bose, Alton Chapman, Ivan Entel, Jim Coniglione, Joseph Torres, Draft:American Lifeguard Association. Deleted: SimTech Labs. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- And noticed that they have date of birth for these bios even though the date is not in any of the references. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 00:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I checked Draft:Joseph Torres and saw that almost the entire page was not supported by the provided citations, suggesting either off-wiki communication (to be expected for UPEs) or blatant OR. ComplexRational (talk) 14:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- The mitigating factor you mention is something that is most common among UPE sockpuppets. Creating a new account and immediately create a user page explaining that they forgot password without naming the previous account is part of the UPE bingo. MarioGom (talk) 05:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- That also seems like a "waiting game" for autoconfirmed status to bypass draft space – indeed suspicious behavior. ComplexRational (talk) 14:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Arabic literature
WP:ANI#Recent influx of problematic articles on Arabian language novels may be of interest to the people here (and vice versa, the input from people from here may be of interest to the people at ANI ;-) ). Fram (talk) 13:34, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Disabling the page curation toolbar
Is there a way to disable the page curation toolbar? I am experiencing a typing lag when editing Wikipedia that first manifested approximately around the same time I received the new page patroller privilege. Schierbecker (talk) 07:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Schierbecker Try disabling JavaScript, or you can just make a second account to hold the NPP privilege on. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 11:39, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Editor creating one-line articles from foreign language wikis
Hola. So I've been coming across a number of new articles like this one in the feed from one editor, who is creating one-line articles with three sources from foreign language wikis and tagging the newly created article with the foreign language sources tag!!! This strikes me as mildly egregious - bagging article creation (undoubtedly the name of the game) and then leaving other editors to turn it into a halfway decent article. I've left a message on their talk asking them to perhaps consider, but is there anything else we can do? We're looking at a large number of poor one-line articles being created as a result... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- For articles like that one where there is a substantial, well sourced wiki article in another well developed language/ wikipedia, IMHO it's a plus for English Wikipedia to have it, even with all of the issues that you describe. But of course, encouraging the editor to develop it is a good thing. North8000 (talk) 16:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's a valid stub. From a NPP perspective, we should not worry about it. The creation rate does not seem to qualify for WP:MASSCREATE either. MarioGom (talk) 17:57, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Is this what we should keep infinitively in draft?
Mostly an observation, but look at these two examples: Draft:Madhvi Subrahmanian, and 5 potential biographies in draft. The following category is interesting: Category:Created_via_preloaddraft – they appear to be worthy articles/biographies in main space. I randomly read a few, and picked this one as an example, but then I'm a bit of a history buff, and tend to consider much of history notable. Atsme 💬 📧 15:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- The first 6 I'd call ideas for articles, not articles (even though the stub technically is one) and so less germane to our discussions. The seventh one is one that I'd call a slam dunk "pass" regarding existence as a separate article. , albeit needs work including on the copied text. It's has lots of text content, much of it covering real world notability and possible SNG notability type items. And it has 2 sources. Doubly so being historical where searchable sources are more a "tip of the iceberg" Historical also means there is no monetary gain to be achieved by having a wiki article, so the available sources are probably not already maxed out by a wiki-skilled paid editor. North8000 (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022
Hello New pages patrol,
- Backlog status
At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000[a] at the end of May.
Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.[b]
In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).
While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).
- Backlog drive
A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.
- TIP – New school articles
Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.
- Misc
There is a new template available, {{NPP backlog}}
, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:
>NPP backlog: 10854 as of 06:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.
- Reminders
- Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
- If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing
{{subst:NPR invite}}
on their talk page. - If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
- To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.
- Notes
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Article patrol status after refund/undelete
I recently AFDed a new article, which correctly marked the article patrolled/reviewed to remove it from the NPP queue on the assumption that the AFD would determine notability. This particular article was "soft-deleted" due to minimal participation in the deletion discussion, and subsequently restored via WP:REFUND - at which time it was back in mainspace but not in the queue.
This article was on my watchlist, but in general, there is no guarantee that a refunded article is on the watchlist of an active editor. I propose that either:
1. A undeleted article be marked un-patrolled if it was patrolled within 30 days prior to being deleted. This should catch the case described above where the patrol was via an AFD.
2. Just treat undeletes the same as recreation of a deleted article (i.e. they are "new") and have NPP take a look.
I'll open a Phab ticket for such a change if we can establish a consensus to do either. MB 20:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- To be fair technically that page was in fact patrolled by a patroller. But if this can be done, I support it, its easier than teaching a thousand admins to unpatrol after undeleting. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 20:24, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support a phab ticket to unpatrol all undeletes. That would catch this and be an uncomplicated software patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:49, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support to stop this loophole Atlantic306 (talk) 23:18, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support to stop this loophole. --Whiteguru (talk) 00:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - whatever works - BUT...isn't this along the same lines as to why I said we should not mark articles sent to AfD reviewed? If it was sent to AfD as unreviewed, got soft deleted and refunded, it would still be unreviewed, yes or no? OTH, it we mark it reviewed when sending it to AfD, and it's soft deleted and refunded, will it still be marked reviewed? Atsme 💬 📧 00:39, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. Fixing this loophole as proposed here solves the problem. Not marking them reviewed when sending to AFD would also solve it, but the current design is to mark them reviewed since there is nothing more for NPP to do with them and keeping them in the queue would just be clutter. MB 02:10, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- MB - consensus decided differently, please see the discussion here. It resolves quite a few issues. Atsme 💬 📧 11:48, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are mis-reading that. The discussion was specifically about CSD and PROD. Although a few people said "also AFD" in their comments, I don't see consensus to keep AFDs in the queue. MB 15:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- MB, for clarity, articles that were CSD or PROD noms should not be marked as reviewed? Any article that we send to AfD should be marked reviewed, despite the potential of it being redirected/merged at AfD? New redirects show up in our queue, but what if that redirect is highjacked and/or a new or different article is created from that reviewed AfD redirect, will it be patrolled since it was marked reviewed, or will it show up as a new article in the queue? See the response by Wbm1058 on June 18, 2022. Atsme 💬 📧 12:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, CSD and PROD noms should not be marked and AFDs should be. Leave it to the AFD process "finish curation" of the page. If you kept it unreviewed until after the AFD closed, then what? This is a moot question if the article is deleted. But if it is kept or merged/redirected, it can't stay in the queue forever. It has to be marked reviewed - there is no reason not to just do it upfront. Yes, a redirect can be highjacked. But this can happen to any of the millions of redirects. We have to rely on other mechanisms to prevent hijacking. I put redirects I am concerned with on my watchlist. I assume Recent Change patrollers are in a good position to catch hijacking too. MB 17:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
a new or different article is created from that reviewed AfD redirect, will it be patrolled since it was marked reviewed, or will it show up as a new article in the queue?
When a reviewed redirect is flipped to an article, the software unpatrols it. Great safeguard. This is why the back of our queue is 10 year old articles... this is folks turning redirects into articles. When an article is taken to AFD and someone tries to remove the AFD notice template, a bot puts it back. The AFD notice template also has NOINDEX built into it, so despite being reviewed, if the article is younger than 90 days, it still won't be indexed by Google. I 100% agree that we don't mark CSD and PROD as reviewed, but we do mark AFD as reviewed. I think it says this somewhere, but would be great if we could make it clearer, for example by putting it in the flowchart. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- MB, for clarity, articles that were CSD or PROD noms should not be marked as reviewed? Any article that we send to AfD should be marked reviewed, despite the potential of it being redirected/merged at AfD? New redirects show up in our queue, but what if that redirect is highjacked and/or a new or different article is created from that reviewed AfD redirect, will it be patrolled since it was marked reviewed, or will it show up as a new article in the queue? See the response by Wbm1058 on June 18, 2022. Atsme 💬 📧 12:45, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are mis-reading that. The discussion was specifically about CSD and PROD. Although a few people said "also AFD" in their comments, I don't see consensus to keep AFDs in the queue. MB 15:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- MB - consensus decided differently, please see the discussion here. It resolves quite a few issues. Atsme 💬 📧 11:48, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct. Fixing this loophole as proposed here solves the problem. Not marking them reviewed when sending to AFD would also solve it, but the current design is to mark them reviewed since there is nothing more for NPP to do with them and keeping them in the queue would just be clutter. MB 02:10, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support option 2 – undeleted articles should be marked un-patrolled. I'm surprised they're not already, sounds like a bug. – Joe (talk) 10:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support option 2 — rsjaffe 🗣️ 10:35, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support option 2. MarioGom (talk) 17:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Phab ticket created. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Novem Linguae, I was planning to wait a little longer before opening a Phab ticket because, although there is clear consensus here, I had only recently listed this at WP:REFUND (which I should have mentioned here). I listed the Phab at the improvement page also for reference/tracking purposes. MB 18:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support option 2 as it is the simplest. For AFD and prod perhaps we need a different level of patrol, like patrolled for deletion, which when undeleted would change to unpatrolled. But that is a bit complicated. We also have some speedy delete reversals at REFUND (like G13's, G7's or other clearly wrong speedy deletes). But NPPers will get more work out of this! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:26, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- support option 2--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 00:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- support option 2. Simplest approach and the most practical. scope_creepTalk 23:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Phab ticket declined - could a bot be used instead?
Since the phab ticket about this issue has been declined, it looks like a bot could be the solution to the problem. It doesn't seem that difficult -- all it would have to do is scan the deletion log for any pages undeleted into the mainspace, and mark them as unpatrolled. Thoughts? >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 03:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- A bot is better than nothing, and considering the above consensus, seems like a feasible solution. ComplexRational (talk) 03:33, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's be careful with our terminology. In my opinion, our phab ticket was not declined. A decline would be closing it as "wontfix". Rather, the Growth Team, a team of software engineers at WMF who has some responsibility for fixing major PageTriage bugs, has said they don't have time to work on this. However, a volunteer developer could still do it.
- But yes, the bot angle could work too. Maybe @DannyS712, who has some similar bot tasks, would be interested. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Marshall Miller who now oversees the Growth team among a couple of other areas, has confirmed that this will be rolled out soon. Thank you so much Taavi for claiming this job and getting it done, and so quickly. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Proposal: Remove redirects to draftspace from review queue
I’ve noticed that a couple of the redirects left behind after draftification were marked as reviewed before they could be deleted. My concern is that, if the article gets recreated in mainspace or through AfC, it would not then go into the queue. Correct me if I’m wrong. Does speedy deletion of the redirect remove the “reviewed status”?
Even if reviewed status is removed by the speedy deletion, it’s still unnecessary work to have those redirects in the queue — rsjaffe 🗣️ 10:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, it is unnecessary work. If they don't show up in the queue, it would be great. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- A deleted article (or redirect) will be in the queue if recreated (an exception is if it is restored with UNDELETE as discussed above). I don't see a problem here; a redirect to a draft should be CSDed if found. These shouldn't be in the queue very long as CSDs are usually handled promptly. If the Draftification script is used, the redirect is deleted immediately - so I would think redirects to drafts are rare. MB 15:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t have page mover rights, so a redirect is left behind with a CSD tag. And deletion takes a while, so I’ve seen the redirects in the queue and, as I stated above, some are getting patrolled. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:03, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Twinkle is your friend... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t have page mover rights, so a redirect is left behind with a CSD tag. And deletion takes a while, so I’ve seen the redirects in the queue and, as I stated above, some are getting patrolled. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:03, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- A deleted article (or redirect) will be in the queue if recreated (an exception is if it is restored with UNDELETE as discussed above). I don't see a problem here; a redirect to a draft should be CSDed if found. These shouldn't be in the queue very long as CSDs are usually handled promptly. If the Draftification script is used, the redirect is deleted immediately - so I would think redirects to drafts are rare. MB 15:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd prefer they DO show up in the queue. I have come across some that were not already tagged for CSD and have had to tag them. This would allow those to 'slip through the cracks' as it were. I notice them in particular since I mostly patrol redirects. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 16:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, that was my point when I said "should be CSDed if found". Having them in the queue is a good way for them to be found and tagged for deletion. MB 17:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion, this sounds like reviewer error. A mainspace to draftspace redirect will always get CSDd by the draftify script. Reviewers are not supposed to mark CSDs as reviewed. Perhaps we can let the folks who are marking these as reviewed know that they are not supposed to mark these as reviewed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Umm I do this when I find them, to take them out of the queue. Should I just leave them or CSD them? Mccapra (talk) 18:52, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah if someone draftifies and it doesnt get tagged csd for some reason, i think we are supposed to csd r2 it and leave unreviewed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- P.S. On second thought, anytime a patrolled redirect is flipped to an article, it becomes unreviewed. So I dont think this is a loophole that can be exploited. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- By the script yes it will be tagged. IF (and only if) the mover uses the script, otherwise it leaves a redirect behind whoch should be left in the queue for someone to tag R2. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 22:26, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Umm I do this when I find them, to take them out of the queue. Should I just leave them or CSD them? Mccapra (talk) 18:52, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I asked for autopatrol rights specifically to avoid creating unreviewable redirects that need patrol by another NPP'er. I didn't get autopatrol but they gave me whitelist which was supposed to solve this. But it apparently hasn't. Someday I should ask for admin to solve all of these things. North8000 (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @North8000: You asked for autopatrolled so that redirects you create when moving a page to correct its title wouldn't go into the queue, which is a different situation. The redirects-with-a-CSD-tag created by the draftify script are not technically redirects and therefore not affected by the redirect whitelist. But now that you're on the redirect whitelist, any regular redirects you create should be automatically patrolled by User:DannyS712 bot III. Is that not happening? – Joe (talk) 07:43, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Joe Roe: Thanks. I guess I was imprecise in my (mis)understanding. I thought it was to apply to all redirects created by me. But I saw that I was on the top of the list of people with the largest amount of un-reviewed articles (all of which were those redirects) and getting notices that other NPP'ers have been manually reviewing those redirects that I left. North8000 (talk) 12:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Request: Report of number of unreviewed articles, grouped by creator
I've noticed that when a creator has more than many unreviewed articles in the queue, they are mostly of the same kind (e.g. constituencies of russia OR frogs from south america OR ...) and either are are an easy pass, an easy fail, or there is something missing in all/most of them, which should be mentioned to the creator. Could someone create a report for this, at least once? If it seems useful to other NPRs, we can ask someone who runs a report bot to generate this report every 12 hours or so. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 11:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- There used to be a tool for this, Rentier's NPP browser, but it hasn't worked for some time. It would be really useful, also for identifying candidates for autopatrolled. – Joe (talk) 14:54, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Here's a quick query showing unreviewed new pages by user. Obviously having this on a wiki page would be nicer, but it's a start. – Joe (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. I've tried to create this query a few weeks back, but quite clearly, my SQL skills need brushing up. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 01:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, using that query you can then filter the feed by username. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 16:32, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's an interesting tool. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 22:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Here's a quick query showing unreviewed new pages by user. Obviously having this on a wiki page would be nicer, but it's a start. – Joe (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I added this to Wikipedia:New pages patrol/Resources#Reports since this thread will eventually be archived. MB 05:19, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Here's a summary of my quick look at the top 20 from that query:
Creator | Count | Common Type |
---|---|---|
Gardenkur | 115 | Municipal corporations in India (handled by North8000 circa 7/1/22) |
Gondolabúrguer | 76 | Subdivisions in Brazil (done by North8000 circa 6/26) |
Das osmnezz | 73 | Footballers |
SonOfBasra | 73 | Iraqi football teams |
Montenois | 67 | Subdivisions of the Russian Empire (done by North8000 circa 6/26) |
Ss112 | 65 | Music albums |
CatchedY | 61 | Biographies in various fields |
Ainty Painty | 59 | Biographies and other articles in the Pakistan/Afghanistan area |
Helen Puffer Thwait | 57 | Music albums |
Immanuelle | 57 | Chinese and Japanese articles |
Thriley | 56 | Varied biographies |
Abbasulu | 55 | Bengali and Bangladeshi films and film biographies |
Rollcloud | 53 | Rare genetic disorders (done by North8000 circa 6/26) |
Pirhayati | 47 | Varied biographies |
JIP | 44 | Finnish articles |
AshMusique | 43 | Rap songs |
Pehlivanmeydani | 42 | Sport biographies and events from the 2022 Mediterranean Games |
Dwanyewest | 42 | Varied |
Haoreima | 41 | Meitei mythology from Manipur, India |
Total | 1178 |
If anyone already finds any of these topics easy/fast to review, please do so. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I’d be interested in a third column showing % of articles produced by the person in the last 90 days that are unreviewed (that is, number of articles in the queue divided by number of articles written in past 90 days). I suspect some of these article types are being passed over by reviewers. For example, I’ve been bypassing all those municipal corporation articles. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 11:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I also took a look at those "municipal corporations in India" articles. I also stepped back, not knowing what to do with them. IMO each would best make a paragraph or section in the article for the city that they are part of. But there is a lot of work there. Merging 100+ articles, including separating out the boilerplate material that is duplicated across them would be a huge job. As would separating out the "micro-happenings" material that makes up the bulk of the unique material and sources in each. I did leave the creator this note:
- "First, most importantly, thanks for your work! Next, during new page patrol work I came upon a larger amount of articles on departments/authorities within cities These articles seem to consist of mostly general info regarding the type of department/authority (copied between many many articles) and then a smaller amount of content that is unique to the subject. Also much of the latter is about individual related events rather than being directly about the subject as a whole. If you are still making more of these, I'd like you to consider make them instead a paragraph or section within the article of the city which they are a part of. Thanks again for your work."
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:22, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Since the quarry results will only update if I re-run it manually (or someone else forks it and re-runs their version manually, etc.) I've asked if it can be turned into a regular database report at Wikipedia_talk:Database_reports#Request:_editors_by_number_of_unreviewed_pages. – Joe (talk) 10:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Since the backlog drive started and we don't have the automated report yet, this is the latest top 10:
User | Count | Commonality | Picked up by |
---|---|---|---|
SonOfBasra | 78 | Iraqi football teams | |
Das osmnezz | 72 | Footballers | |
Ss112 | 65 | Music albums | |
Ainty Painty | 58 | Biographies and other articles in the Pakistan/Afghanistan area | |
Abbasulu | 51 | Bengali and Bangladeshi films and film biographies | |
Dwanyewest | 43 | Varied | |
AshMusique | 42 | Rap songs | |
JIP | 39 | Finnish articles | |
OrangTangerang53 | 39 | Indonesian football clubs | |
Aidan721 | 33 | baseball under-18 teams of countries |
-MPGuy2824 (talk) 02:33, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- NB. Ss112 has been autopatrolled since 2016, those 65 are actually redirects he created that other users have then turned into articles. – Joe (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Unreviewed article tag
It appears that the NOINDEX until reviewed is going to happen. This is likely to cause more people to ask "why doesn't my article appear in Google?" To mitigate the extra work of answering this question, we could use a tag like this on all unreviewed articles. I'm not sure of the mechanism to add it automatically and remove it automatically, but before we worry about that, is this a good idea? 14,000 tags is a lot, but it is only 0.22% of all articles. There are that many biography notability tags alone, so it wouldn't without precedent. Thoughts? MB 06:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like it. It forces people who are interested in getting articles indexed soon, to take notability and other tags seriously. 14,000 of these tags is a lot, but we are thinking of such ideas, with the end goal being a much smaller backlog. Mechanism of adding/removal: Some sort of hook when an article is marked as reviewed, possibly. A bot which runs hourly or so, is also good enough. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- It might be useful to clarify what exactly "Wikipedia mainspace" is. I know what it is, as do a lot of other active editors, but a newbie might not. Clovermoss (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like. Maybe to address User:Clovermoss' point, "While it has now been added to Wikipedia, it will not be visible to..." Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- While we're at it, it's probably useful to clarify that this process is different from AfC. Maybe in a linked FAQs section or something. Someone might try to remove the template in good faith because they think it's already been reviewed if it's an accepted AfC draft. Clovermoss (talk) 16:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another thing to keep in mind would be about the mainspace pages that go through NPP that aren't actually articles like disambiguation pages and redirects. I'm assuming a template like this automatically being added to the page would render the redirect useless, at least temporarily. Clovermoss (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like. Maybe to address User:Clovermoss' point, "While it has now been added to Wikipedia, it will not be visible to..." Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- It might be useful to clarify what exactly "Wikipedia mainspace" is. I know what it is, as do a lot of other active editors, but a newbie might not. Clovermoss (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I like it also for a second reason which is that it's sort of invisible whether or not an article has been patrolled (or =), But we need to make sure that we don't create another 800 new jobs per day for NPP'ers which is removal of the tags when the article is reviewed. Either need a bot to do that quickly (like maybe every 15 minutes) or add it to what the curation tool automatically does. North8000 (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
This does seem like a decent idea. I second the idea of a bot, and page curation can also remove the tag as well (no reason we can't do both). One drawback I can see is that it adds clutter, but at the same time could potentially draw more attention to NPP and possibly result in more members. I would also suggest adding a link to "mainspace" as the concept of namespaces may not always be understood by new users. I can also see a lot of page creators just removing the tag (as is a typical practice for some) which might create work for editors who will then have to revert and explain to others why they shouldn't remove the tag. ASUKITE 16:06, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Version 0.1
This version removes mention of "mainspace" as suggested above, and includes a link to a page that can elaborate such things as
- Removal is automatic after review; do not manually remove as (hopefully) a bot will just put it back
- Differences with AFC review
- Maybe a link that displays the date of the oldest unreviewed article in the "new part" of the queue to give an idea of how long it could take
- A note that we don't really care if an article is indexed and if you do, that may be a sign that you are trying to promote something (this may be going too far, some editors apparently want articles to be indexed because they prefer to search for articles with Google instead of the WP search bar).
- A link to WP:HELPDESK if there are still questions
As far as use on Redirects, it would not break a redirect if placed after the first line containing #Redirect
, or there could be special coding the way there is on a redirect listed at RFD. But it's probably best to just not use it at all on redirects. The text is geared towards articles, and I don't think the issues are the same.
DABs in the queue usually don't stay there for long, and a DAB could be considered a special kind of article. I don't think we need to do anything special. MB 21:27, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- @MB: Is there a way for it to exclude redirects? Like if a page has an rcat or a disambiguation template? Otherwise I think version 0.1 addresses all my concerns. Clovermoss (talk) 22:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Probably should have some process to handle unwanted removal of the template. People sometimes remove maintenance templates without fixing the issue, so I could see that happening here. Perhaps a bot? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, after reading all of the discussion above I don't really see a need for this banner. "Why doesn't my article appear in Google?" is a pretty easy question to answer and I don't really expect these questions to be an exacerbating problem if the 90-day period is extended. Unlike other maintenance templates, which alert readers that someone has identified a concrete issue and invites them to fix it if they can, this one seems mostly informational and designed for the page creator, which means that it becomes the most prominent thing on the article for a whole lot of people who don't really need to see it and probably can't do anything about it. Finally, there are plenty of clean, notable, and policy-compliant articles in the NPP queue that simply haven't been patrolled because the backlog is so large and no one has gotten around to it. I don't like the idea of a bot repeatedly reverting anyone (especially an experienced editor) who tries to remove the tag on such an article. DanCherek (talk) 23:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think the idea of the banner is excellent. Kudos to MB for thinking outside the box and coming up with it. It's one of those no-brainer things that can be done without the bureaucracy of having an RfC for it (which has sadly become a new trend even to dot an I or cross a T). It should be easy for it to appear on all new articles except redirects. Due to the vast increase in Internet access and cheap smart phones in non-English L1 regions, its language should be short, free of WP jargon, and be ENGVAR agnostic. IMO This is all it needs for the required knee-jerk:
- Of course, the best solution would be to get the WMF to finally create a proper landing page for newly registered users which they have avoided doing for 20 years. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Potential bug
I'm not a techie, so I cannot explain what took place in the following sequence of events, or why Nearlyevil665 is shown as the article creator:
- Article you created on UTP of NE665
- Umar Nurmagomedov - the article in mainspace
- The curation tool states: (autopatrolled) This page was created on 12 March 2022 by Nearlyevil665 (talk | contribs)
- Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov_(fighter) – some of the same states, different DOB, but obviously the same person
Ok, can someone explain what happened? Atsme 💬 📧 12:53, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Umar Nurmagomedov was created as a draft by Nearlyevil665 on 12 March. It was accepted at AFC by HeinzMaster today; the curation tool labels it as "autopatrolled" because HeinzMaster is autopatrolled. Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) was developed in parallel by (mostly) different editors as a different draft about the same person. DanCherek (talk) 13:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another way this can happen (article creators showing up different from what you might expect) is when someone starts an article that was originally a redirect. I've created a few articles that were originally redirects, which is why I know this. But yeah, DanCherek is right on what happened in this particular situation. This is actually why I asked my autopatrolled right to be removed before I became an AfC reviewer. Didn't like the implications of not having a second set of eyes, y'know? Especially since I'm still going through NPP school myself. But I think in general it's not the worst idea. Autopatrolled editors typically know what's notable and what's not. But then again, maybe they wrote all 25 of their articles on like charted music albums and don't know about WP:NCORP. There's nuance there. Clovermoss (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
A good way to avoid this issue if you create an article over a redirect is to create the article in a different place (I.e. draft or userspace) and swap it with the no longer needed redirect. If you don't have pageswap you can request speedy deletion (t · c) buidhe 16:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't have pageswap, Buidhe. I'm not even technically a New Page Patroller, but I've had this page on my watchlist for awhile. Apart from not having to have a decent-ish article in the first revision (as creating it elsewhere could better for that if you need more time, I often start articles in draftspace anyways), would there be any point in doing this apart from having the person in question show up as the article creator? Nominating a redirect for speedy deletion when I could just overwrite the redirect seems like it'd just make more work for whoever's going though CSD nominations, but maybe it's not that big of a deal in the scheme of things. Clovermoss (talk) 16:39, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Both ways are acceptable it's personal preference. (t · c) buidhe 16:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing it up, regardless. I might consider doing it in certain circumstances, like when I really think developing a draft instead of immediately overwriting a redirect would be a good idea. Clovermoss (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Buidhe - apologies for not being more clear when presenting the issue. The hidden page log for Umar Nurmagomedov shows @ 09:04, March 31, 2022 Felipe Scama created page Umar Nurmagomedov (Created by translating the page "Umar Nurmagomedov") – so why did NE665 show up in the curation tool as article creator, as well as in the edit history? It's incorrect and obviously grabbed the AfC history. Then when you look at Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter), it shows Felipe Scama as creator but the following is what shows on the log:
- 18:24, May 8, 2022 Cassiopeia deleted redirect Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) by overwriting (G6: Deleted to make way for move)
- 11:20, May 8, 2022 15koa talk contribs moved page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) to Umar Nurmagomedov.
- Something went wrong, and it doesn't look like something we should be repeating. I'm not quite sure how it happened but maybe one of our tech gurus can explain so we can avoid it from happening in the future. Atsme 💬 📧 23:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Novem Linguae, Wbm1058, DannyS712 - sorry to disturb, but I was hoping to better understand the above issue and how to avoid it, hopefully before Wednesday because I may not have internet (or worse) on that day forward if the storm that's brewing in the Atlantic (potentially to be named Bonnie) traverses near or over this tiny island in the southern Caribbean. Atsme 💬 📧 14:04, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Logs:
at 00:09, 6 September 2020 Vechtsport Fan created page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (←Created page with '{{subst:AFC submission/draftnew}} Umar Nurmagomedov Нурмагомедов Ома...') |
at 12:25, 5 February 2022 Explicit deleted page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (G13: Abandoned draft or AfC submission – If you wish to retrieve it, please see WP:REFUND/G13) |
at 17:54, 12 March 2022 Nearlyevil665 created page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (Has two bouts, very likely to be notable soon, if not already due to press coverage) |
at 13:04, 31 March 2022 Felipe Scama created page Umar Nurmagomedov (Created by translating the page "Umar Nurmagomedov") |
at 14:45, 6 May 2022 HeinzMaster moved page Umar Nurmagomedov to Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) (Not notable) |
at 15:58, 6 May 2022 Sdrqaz deleted page Umar Nurmagomedov (R2: Cross-namespace redirect from mainspace) |
at 15:20, 8 May 2022 15koa moved page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) to Umar Nurmagomedov |
at 22:24, 8 May 2022 Cassiopeia moved page Umar Nurmagomedov to Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter) over a redirect without leaving a redirect |
at 00:13, 26 June 2022 HeinzMaster moved page Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov to Umar Nurmagomedov (Publishing accepted Articles for creation submission (AFCH 0.9.1)) |
I didn't develop the curation tool and am not familiar with that code. But the above logs are sufficiently complicated that I'm not surprised if the algorithm got tripped up by unexpected editor behavior (creation of a content fork by creating a new article rather than moving the existing draft to mainspace) – wbm1058 (talk) 15:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- DanCherek's explanation (2nd paragraph from the top) seems correct. Let us know if there are additional questions. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Apparently there may still be some confusion so I converted my list above to a color-coded table to try to clarify. There have been three versions of this article created. The first version (color coded pink) was deleted and doesn't overlap with the other two. The second version (color coded green) was created in draft space 12 March and remained there until it was moved to main-space 26 June. The third version (color coded purple) is causing all the confusion. It was boldly created in article space while the other version was still in draft. Then it was moved to Draft:Umar Nurmagomedov (fighter), obviously to avoid stepping on the other version still sitting in draft at the base title. Then it was move-warred back to main-space and back to draft again. Where it remains today. Hope this helps. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
100+ articles on departments/authorities within cities in India by Gardenkur awaiting review
For anyone interested or who would like to participate, I'm having a discussion with the editor at User_talk:North8000#Articles on departments/authorities within cities
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, input is requested. North8000 (talk) 14:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Possible copyvio – second opinion requested
I'd like a second opinion on 1970–71 AEK Athens F.C. season, an article that I initially marked reviewed after cleaning up a possible copyvio, though the creator has restored the potentially infringing text, removed the RD1 tag, and not taken lightly to its removal. Namely, the section Overview appears to be a copy-and-paste machine translation of [2], which AFAICT does not have a license compatible with Wikipedia. I have since marked the page unreviewed, and would like a second opinion to not escalate a dispute. ComplexRational (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- ComplexRational, Given that descriptive terms are word for word, I would say several parts remain copyvio concerns. Slywriter (talk) 00:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Slywriter: That's basically what I was thinking, even after the most recent revisions. You're also welcome to join the discussion at the creator's talk page (User talk:BEN917#Possible copyvio in 1970–71 AEK Athens F.C. season), where I brought the issue to their attention; then the text itself can be addressed. ComplexRational (talk) 01:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Workflow issue with AfD
Just realized we have a problem. When a page is nominated for AfD it is also tagged as patrolled, which means that NOINDEX is removed. So, assuming it ends up getting deleted, in the meantime an article unsuited for Wikipedia is indexed and shows up on all sorts of Wikipedia scraper sites. Is there some way to delay the patrolled flag until the conclusion of AfD? — rsjaffe 🗣️ 14:42, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- {{Article for deletion/dated}} contains {{NOINDEX}}, which noindexes pages that are less than 90 days old. (See also Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers/Archive 42#Marking articles sent to AfD as reviewed.) Though this may need to be re-examined if the 90-day period is extended indefinitely. DanCherek (talk) 14:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Presumably it'll just NOINDEX indefinitely? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Because {{NOINDEX}} only applies to new articles, it protects against someone sneakily adding it to, say, United States and preventing indexing of long-standing and important articles. So I don't think the NOINDEX template should be changed in this scenario. DanCherek (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The documentation for NOINDEX says it only lasts 90 days. It appears to be separate from the PageTriage 90 day noindex (controlled by a different variable somewhere). –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The NOINDEX for new articles addresses my concern. Looks like the current system works appropriately and my concern is unfounded. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 15:38, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Presumably it'll just NOINDEX indefinitely? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Phabricator vs NPP software requests
An important request has been flatly denied. The reason given on a linked page, is that Page Curation is a 'Non maintained project':
Projects that Growth team has no capacity to maintain and are looking for new ownership or have transferred ownership to another team and are listed here for historical reference. These projects don't have any dedicated resources behind them but are available for new owners who see a future in them and would like to take up the work of developing and maintaining them. Bugs and issues coming up on this projects will ONLY receive attention if the issue is urgent, affects a large number of users and needs to be unbroken immediately.
It is my opinion, though it might not be shared by everyone, is that NPP is the only gatekeeper against possibly inapropriate new articles, and as such is a crucial process for the quality of Wikipedia. Hence the New Pages Feed and its Curation tools need funds and a developer team allocated to their maintenance and improvement. Funds are certainly not lacking. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree 100%, Kudz!! It's a mess. There are bugs to be fixed, features & stats we need, & areas that need streamlining/automation, etc. How much would the average person tolerate were it a paying job, never mind doing it as a volunteer? After reading the this Signpost article, and WMF's laissez faire attitude about ill-prepared articles, PE, unsourced articles – let the volunteers fix it – and the lack of WMF support for the tools we need, it almost seems like they're purposely trying to rid the project of editors. Get back in the coal mine, and don't worry about the dead canaries![stretch] And while I don't begrudge the project earning money off the backs of our free labor, I do mind when they deny us the tools we need to provide the free work. To call it disheartening is an understatement. Atsme 💬 📧 03:27, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Following the message I ledt at Phab, a dev has now claimed this particular task. Anyway, it looks as if some progress is being made. What is really needed however, is a dev team being drawn up to specifically rewrite the entire NPP code, which the WMF told me a few years ago (Ithink it was Kaldari) was unfortunately not compatible with later iterations of MediaWiki and therefore not Wiki-agnostic. Now is the time to do it. There is plenty of money - the WMF is wallowing in it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- enwiki and all WMF wikis run the latest version of mediawiki (a development version even more up-to-date than the official releases), because they use continuous deployment and release every week (WP:ITSTHURSDAY). I would hesitate to request a complete re-write of complex, working software, as the time to value ratio on this (or any rewrite of working software) would likely be low (ton of developer time, little new useful functionality). Rewrite (programming)#Risks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm aware of all this. I was told years ago when its original development had just been rolled out. It was explained again years later at here, along with a super log of all the requests that have been addressed, but they have discretely admitted that the whole thing should really be recoded. We worked long and hard on the design of the user interfaces in the best interests of the reviewers in order to try and make NPP a smoother and more appealing task, and later to embed some ORES functions in it but there is still some way to go. If all the features were to be included that we would still find extremely useful a complete rewrite might probably be the best way to get there. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:40, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- IMHO
has been flatly denied
is not an accurate characterization. Patches were welcome (and actually a volunteer sent a patch), and the responsible team said thatit's not something that the Growth team can work on any time soon
. Software development in big projects involves managing priorities, and managing finite time. Of course, we can argue for prioritization, and make a case for a higher priority, but I think that triggering hostility against developers just because a ticket is not initially prioritized is just wrong. MarioGom (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, @Kudpung, @Wbm1058, something's different that happened quite recently. I just tried to create a user talk subpage for a NPP trainee exercise and got the following message: The page "User talk:Atsme/NPP training/[student name]" does not exist. You can request that it be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered. Not knowing what else to do, I bypassed it via a move leaving no redirect, which may be a better option anyway, but...I'd still like to know what changed. Atsme 💬 📧 13:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: Could be that [student name] contains something on the title blacklist? Or you were somehow logged out when you tried to create it? – Joe (talk) 13:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Good morning, Joe Roe! I only substituted [student name] for this discussion in lieu of the actual user name. I was logged in, and the move went through without issue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just now tried to create another subpage using "Tank", and got the same message: The page "User talk:Atsme/NPP training/Tank" does not exist. You can request that it be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered. ???? Something has been changed. Atsme 💬 📧 14:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Atsme, when you see this message on the "Search results" page:
- The page "User talk:Atsme/NPP training/Tank" does not exist. You can request that it be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered.
- Click on the red link User talk:Atsme/NPP training/Tank and then click the tab "Create". You don't have to "request that it be created". – wbm1058 (talk) 14:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I see it now - so they changed the appearance - wow. It's a big enough change that I didn't notice I was able to create the page after clicking the red link. The first thing I saw was "Create a redirect from this page with Sagittarius" and "Start a discussion". Apologies for the side railing. Atsme 💬 📧 14:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Atsme, when you see this message on the "Search results" page:
- Good morning, Joe Roe! I only substituted [student name] for this discussion in lieu of the actual user name. I was logged in, and the move went through without issue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just now tried to create another subpage using "Tank", and got the same message: The page "User talk:Atsme/NPP training/Tank" does not exist. You can request that it be created, but consider checking the search results below to see whether the topic is already covered. ???? Something has been changed. Atsme 💬 📧 14:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Atsme: Could be that [student name] contains something on the title blacklist? Or you were somehow logged out when you tried to create it? – Joe (talk) 13:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- If we can’t have the tools to patrol easily, I will just not bother. If I knew how to, I would make a tool myself. I’m just going to hope that the WMF develop the tools when NPP falls to its knees. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 14:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Every bit of help with patrolling would be much appreciated Zippybonzo. NPP is arguably the most important non-admin task on Wikipedia, and although the WMF has done a lot for it in very recent years at our requests, for several reasons they are reluctant to accord any priority to it. Nevertheless, the software we have today is pure luxury. You're very new here, some of us have been waiting a decade or longer for a perfect set of tools! This is what we used to have to work from, and there were no curation tools, tutorials or flowcharts. What we need right now are a lot more truly active patrolers - only about 10% of the 700+ are actually doing anything. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:48, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Is it ethical to patrol your own pages?
Obviously, I'm not going to do it, but for the sake of curiosity as a newly appointed new page reviewer: Is it ethical to patrol your own articles/redirects/other pages? It is technically possible, which could make the new page reviewer right autopatrolled in practice. I'm going to assume no, but I just wanted some clarification.
Also, I'm asking this partially because I reverted some vandalism at А and Α, (the Greek and Cyrillic letters respectively) and the redirect I restored is still unpatrolled (I won't patrol it myself).
Please let me know. Thanks to all. — 3PPYB6 — TALK — CONTRIBS — 00:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- The software doesn't allow an NPP to patrol their own created pages. You would need to be autopatrolled to get around this. In the eyes of the software, editing an existing page is different than creating a page. As for the ethics of reverting redirect vandalism and then marking that patrolled, sounds ethical to me. Hope that helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Novem when its vandalism. If it's a potential good-faith content dispute, I've left my restore un-patrolled so someone else can put eyes on it. Regardless, I have patrolled the two pages to get then out of the queue. Slywriter (talk) 00:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- So it's not possible to patrol any page you have created. Chnaging from redirect to article requires a new patrol, but you are not considered the creator. I usually patrol my own when reverting vandalism to an already patrolled page, but NOT when I BLAR or remove a redirect. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Suggestion: read Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. It's a user right that is earned, and if abused, will quickly be removed, and the abusing editor will be held accountable. Atsme 💬 📧 12:17, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about it being 'earned'. It's not an award of merit and it has absolutely no benefits for the user, unless the are an abuser. IMO the right should be scrapped. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about the second part either, sadly. We have no process for systematically reviewing autopatrolled after it's granted and it's rarely revoked. I'd also like to see it scrapped or significantly rolled back, but probably now is not the best time. – Joe (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think autopatrolled is a bad idea. Everybody needs a second set of eyes to look at it, and it's also a safety net for when the wrong person gets it or when a well-intentioned person goes awry. The benefit (less for us to patrol) is numerically small.North8000 (talk) 16:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. Earn means earn trust, and right means you have the right to use it but not abuse it as a trusted editor. It would not only be an open door to UPE/PE, it would eliminate doors. If we do eliminate it based on the reasons given here, we might as well eliminate administrator rights which are also based on community trust. Orange Moody, and a few other names come to mind. Give every editor the tools after they’ve had 500 edits. Atsme 💬 📧 16:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think autopatrolled is a bad idea. Everybody needs a second set of eyes to look at it, and it's also a safety net for when the wrong person gets it or when a well-intentioned person goes awry. The benefit (less for us to patrol) is numerically small.North8000 (talk) 16:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Now is not the time to propose something that would greatly enlarge the NPP queue. We need to stay laser focused on reducing the queue. Let's stay focused, folks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Novem Linguae This is when an editor like CommanderWaterford would come in handy, huh? Atsme 💬 📧 18:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae, Joe Roe, and North8000: there is no mention of anything new being 'proposed' here. On this page however (most) users are seriously concerned by 1). the continued stream of junk and other inappropriate new article submissions which has again reached pre-ACTRIAL proportions, and 2). our system (NPP) for controlling it.
- I'm not so sure about the second part either, sadly. We have no process for systematically reviewing autopatrolled after it's granted and it's rarely revoked. I'd also like to see it scrapped or significantly rolled back, but probably now is not the best time. – Joe (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about it being 'earned'. It's not an award of merit and it has absolutely no benefits for the user, unless the are an abuser. IMO the right should be scrapped. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- The mention here is therefore an important wakeup call and no stats have been provided as to how disbanding autopatrolled would negatively impact the work at the New Pages Feed. I would assume, conservatively, that deprecating this user 'right', which has nothing whatsoever to do with being 'earned', would bring more benefits to maintaining a clean encyclopedia corpus than disadvantages to the role of the New Page Reviewers.
- The increase in the discovery of abuse by holders of the autopatrolled and NPP rights is worrying. Removal of the right is not swift and there is perhaps a sign that there still exists a huge grey area here - detection is still not as frequent as it could be despite the massive 2015 OrangeMoody affair, and noises made in The Signpost in 2018. There is nothing to stop an incentive to thoroughly investigate 'autopatroled' once and for all, and it could possibly lead to an indication that the fate of 'autopatrolled' might well be slated for debate in the not too distant future. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- We should keep our focus on reducing the NPP queue, not enlarging it. We don't need to manually patrol thousands of species articles per year, for example. Where is the hard evidence that autopatrol is currently a net negative? Has there been a large quantity of autopatrol scandals lately that cannot simply be handled by putting the discovered UPE's articles back in the queue? –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: I think I more than adequately explained the situation in my rather long post above. There is no hard evidence, that's why a call for stats should be made before starting any debates on it:
There is nothing to stop an incentive to thoroughly investigate 'autopatroled' once and for all
. However, IMO 'autopatrolled' is too frequently abused. When I choose to select autopatrolled articles in the feed prefs, I almost always come across some infringement of the right. I fully understand your point about species articles, but as these articles generally come from mature, serious editors and scientists, plenty of whom are not autopatrolled (so I do know what they look like). The articles are therefore generally clean and are frequently very short. They can be patrolled very quickly. But as I also said, 'autopatrolled' should ultimately be the basis of another debate. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:34, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: I think I more than adequately explained the situation in my rather long post above. There is no hard evidence, that's why a call for stats should be made before starting any debates on it:
- We should keep our focus on reducing the NPP queue, not enlarging it. We don't need to manually patrol thousands of species articles per year, for example. Where is the hard evidence that autopatrol is currently a net negative? Has there been a large quantity of autopatrol scandals lately that cannot simply be handled by putting the discovered UPE's articles back in the queue? –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
I gave my opinion that it shouldn't exist but IMO it's not a pressing issue or high on my worry list. North8000 (talk) 02:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
NPP eyes, please
I came across the contributions of AslamMurmu, and while there are some pretty detailed city articles he authored that pass GNG, the bulk of the hotels are G11 and written as pure promotion. I notified the editor here. I tagged 2 more hotels with G11, Taj Hotel Patna and ITC Royal Bengal, and stopped there. This one was G11'd by an admin. I didn't want to be the one to G11 any further articles by this same editor because, as evidenced here, there will be quite a few more coming down the pipes. I've asked the editor to disclose if there is a COI. Atsme 💬 📧 12:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
A group of about 110 articles on entities in India by one editor that I think will need to get deleted
Further to my "100+ articles on departments/authorities within cities in India by Gardenkur awaiting review" post above and linked discussion on my talk page, I passed about 10 of the editor's open articles and I think about 110 need to get deleted. The edior has agreed to stop making these types of articles although I'm not sure that they fully understand.
If anyone is interested, I just took the first one as a test case to AFD which is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Burhanpur Municipal Corporation IMO the "Municipal Corporation" bundle is the most obvious one for not existing as a seperate article. The trickier part is avoiding any outcome which would require merging material which, for the reasons I detailed there, would never get accomplished and really has no material worth merging. North8000 (talk) 17:20, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I worked it out with the editor and agreed to be a sort of pseudo-mentor on such things.North8000 (talk) 13:01, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!
New Page Patrol | July 2022 Backlog Drive | |
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You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here. |
(t · c) buidhe 20:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Backlog chart
Is it just me or is the hourly chart not displaying properly, and does anyone more tech-y then I am know how to fix it? Courtesy link: [[:{{{1}}}]]sandbox Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:42, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks fine to me. What is it you see? – Joe (talk) 06:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- External link: Imgur. It is collapsed against the axis (only with the hourly parameter, the rest are fine). Happy Editing--IAmChaos 17:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- It looks fine to me on my computer (Chrome) but I do see the error when I browse it in safari on my IPhone. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here)(or here)(or here) 20:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- External link: Imgur. It is collapsed against the axis (only with the hourly parameter, the rest are fine). Happy Editing--IAmChaos 17:20, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Sigcov in songs articles
Hello, it's been a while since I was an NPP regular. (8 years, maybe?) I looked over the tutorial and am pretty confident that I still understand the basic workflow but will probably occasionally solicit feedback on edge cases.
Speaking of which, I wanted to ask about Skinny Dipping (Sabrina Carpenter song). I did a WP:BEFORE search and concluded that the song passes WP:GNG, albeit barely. However, the sources I found that I believe constitute significant coverage devote most of their attention to describing what happens in the song or music video. (The equivalent of plot summary, basically.) I'm not sure whether others would agree that is actually sigcov and thought I should ask. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 15:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- I spot checked the Teen Vogue source. Seems pretty borderline. Tough call. For sigcov I usually look for 3 meaty paragraphs about the topic in question, that aren't quotations, aren't talking about a slightly different topic, and aren't based off a press release or interview. This source has about 3 paragraphs at the beginning talking about this song, and they are based off an interview. The caveat for interview-based articles (that have some prose and aren't just a giant quote) I've noticed is that if they're short, they tend not to be independent enough, but if they are long, they overcome this. Tough call. I'll let others weigh in. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- One could argue this is Wikipedian or not, but I try to go by what would probably happen at an AFD which had neutral participants. The fact that the artist is triply slam dunk wp:notable isn't supposed to matter but it does, if only as an indicator of likelyhood of more suitable sources. For the sources that are already in the article I'd call it an edge case. Even a quick search found other suitable-looking sources. My take would be "pass" along with the current tagging.North8000 (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
Question from new-NPP re: AfD curation tool bug
Hello! I'm a new-NPP, and have encountered a bug with the Curation Tool not completing the AfD process. I was able to resolve this today by using Twinkle (and removing the Curation Tool notice). Am I doing something wrong or is the tool buggy? I've never had problems with Twinkle in the past, so I'm fine bypassing the CT for nominations. Feedback or advise would be appreciated, esp. if I am using the tool incorrectly. Thanks in advance! Netherzone (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Believe consensus is Twinkle is better for everything and NPP tool is mostly for wikilove and review checkmark Slywriter (talk) 18:19, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- +1 –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes (plus of course, also the page feed), it took me a while to learn that. We should write this up somewhere. North8000 (talk) 12:50, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
"Twinkle is better for everything and NPP tool is mostly for wikilove and review checkmark"
is IMO a rather sweeping statement. In 10 years of using it and largely coordinating NPP I have found no evidence that such a consensus exists and we have always been mindfull of its improvement and maintenance. The Curation Tool was designed and developed in full collaboration between the NPP volunteers and senior WMF developers including many face-to-face meetings and it was specifically modeled on the features of Twinkle. That said, no one disputes that the learning curve for correctly reviewing pages is quite steep and therefore a detailed tutorial exists which is one of the most comprehensive but easily digestible user rights tutorials on Wikipedia.
- In order to reduce subpar tagging and patrolling of articles through Twinkle, in 2016 a user right for NPP was created. There are nevertheless clear caveats that to be done correctly NPP requires an almost admin level knowledge of notability and deletion and that ' New Page Patrol is not a task for new or inexperienced users.' No other system provides as much information on each article both in the feed and in the tool to help reviewers decide what to do with an article; its function is fully described and illustrated here even including a video tutorial.
- Bugs: The system is more stable today than it has ever been, and new features are being regularly requested. If there are technical bugs anywhere in the system, please report them here with as much detail as possible. A coordinator will follow up. Alternatively, if you are familiar with Phabricator you are welcome to open a ticket directly there, but please notify this talk page with the Phab tracking info so that it can be followed up. @Netherzone, Slywriter, and Novem Linguae:. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just for the record, here's a previous discussion about the same issue with AFD in the curation toolbar: Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers/Archive 42 § AFD message MIA.Personally, I don't see any value in having the toolbar doing AFD nominations, since many (most?) of us are more familiar with Twinkle, and it generally works better. MarioGom (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Many thanks for these replies, they are helpful! Netherzone (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is not with the bugs in the tools themselves, but with the lack of reporting them properly. There's no point in complaining and claiming Twinkle is better if the developers are not told that something needs fixing. That's one of the reasons why NPP needs a coordinator. Things got done when I, then Insertcleverphrasehere, and then Barkeep49 were looking after things. The NPP community only has itself to blame. Perhaps the admins who are regular reviewers such as @Rosguill, Joe Roe, Ymblanter, and Graeme Bartlett:, might like to comment, including MusikAnimal/MusikAnimal (WMF) who has an overview from all sides. AfC should be the least of our worries, it has a backlog of less than 3,000, a highly competent and active defacto coordinator and a group of over 600 active users that gets regularly pruned for inactivity. FYI: MarioGom. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- We'd need at least one example of failed AFD creation. Netherzone, do you have any example of an AFD that failed for you? Unfortunately, I can't find the one that failed for me some time ago. MarioGom (talk) 06:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- I tried to use the curation tool yesterday to nominate Swift Horses Sharp Swords: Medieval Battles which shook India for deletion (see these edits). It was able to tag the article, add the nomination to the daily log, and notify the user, but failed to actually create the nomination page (even after I had entered and saved my nomination rationale in the toolbar). I had to quickly re-type my nomination and manually create the page afterwards (Special:Diff/1096459998). It's the same behavior that was reported in tasks like phab:T238025 and phab:T239712 (h/t links taken from Joe's message below). DanCherek (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- MarioGom, here is an example of an AfD using Page Curation: the tool did everything except create the actual AfD Discussion page.[3] So I removed the Page Curation deletion tag,[4], and AfD'd it using Twinkle instead[5] which completed each step the process in full. I then noticed that the article creator received two deletion notifications on their talk page (one from Page Curation, and one from Twinkle) so I deleted the one from Page Curation because it did not have a working link to a discussion page.)[6]. This happened to me with three AfD's the first one another editor came along and fixed things, and the other two I cleaned up myself with the process described above. I hope that helps explain the difference between how the two tools functioned differently. Netherzone (talk) 15:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- We'd need at least one example of failed AFD creation. Netherzone, do you have any example of an AFD that failed for you? Unfortunately, I can't find the one that failed for me some time ago. MarioGom (talk) 06:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- DanCherek, all the more reason for you to go to Phab and give them a knee-jerk. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Also pinging @SWilson (WMF), Samwilson, and NKohli (WMF):. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for this back-story, @Kudpung, it's always interesting to me to learn about WP history and I look forward to learning more about NPP looking forward and also understanding the past. Netherzone (talk) 02:43, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- I never use twinkle, so I cannot compare. I find the tools are over 90% reliable. The last problem I had was that AFD was nominated twice in a second. But simple to overcome that. I appreciate the AFD feature, as it saves a complex manual process. But I only patrol one or a few per day, and mostly they just need the tick of patrolled. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- I only use Page Curation for the green tick and the next button. I have done for years and I also thought it was the common practice. There are numerous outstanding phabricator tickets relating to AfD and Page Curation, the oldest of which was opened 10 years ago (phab:T239714, phab:T239712, phab:T238328, phab:T238025, phab:T44650). And bugs aside, last I tried it (which was admittedly a long time ago), the UI was far less polished than Twinkle. I think the initial design of Page Curation was good but it really should have been implemented as local Javascript gadget for enwiki, not a Mediawiki extension. Maybe another reason that AfC is doing comparatively well is that their tool is a gadget and it's actively maintained by local volunteers, not reliant on the WMF/MW developers for every fix or update. – Joe (talk) 08:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Joe, back in 2010-2012 NPP was already in crisis, no one here was going to offer to build a new system to replace the Special:NewPages to allow faster and smoother patrolling, and despite the huge turnout and massive consensus for WP:ACTRIAL, the WMF flat out (and with extreme incivility) refused to allow it to be implemented. As a consolation, they offered to build a new feed and the Curation Tool was part and parcel of it. Who were we to refuse such a 'magnanimous' offer? Years later after a total turnover of WMF staff, new devs admitted that building it as a MediaWiki extension was an error. Nevertheless, I had collaborated on the design of the GUI and the choice of functions, and although I say it myself, I find the system we have today a vast improvement on the old one - just like anyone who uses a Mac would never want to go back to Windoze.
- I don't deny that you might be right about Javascript and Github, but I firmly believe that the way to go is to address the bugs and improve it. If enough of the right kind of pressure were to be exerted on the right WMF department heads (are there any?), I'm sure it would get done. After all, the en.Wiki is their flagship project and it would be in their interest to have a clean encyclopedia corpus. The old chestnut 'not enough funds' is just plain ludicrous as we all know.
- AfC does well because they have over 600 active reviewers, a tiny backlog, no deadlines, and a coord who is highly experienced and constantly on the ball. The work is also less soul destroying and mind numbing soul destroying. The daily flood content of the New Pages Feed is basically a torrent of effluent. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Wikilove
If I were to criticise myself for my NPP performance (others will no doubt add more if I'm going too easy on myself!), it would be that I don't do enough 'Wikilove'. But the toolbar only has an option to send a message to the creator if you tag a page (which is generally not the best page to send love for!) rather than have a drop down under 'Reviewed' that allows you to direct a message to the talk page, the originator or another contributing editor (for instance, where a redirect has been later converted into an article). Noting User:Kudpung's historical involvement in the toolbar from the above discussion and their familiarity with this arcane Phabricator tickety thing, would others agree that might be a useful feature or am I, as usual, just missing something huge and basic staring me in the face? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Alexandermcnabb, when you click the "mark as reviewed" button on the toolbar, don't you see a box that says "Add a message for the creator. This message will also be posted to the article talk page." (similar to the box in this picture)? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Extraordinary Writ Yes, but that's not sending a message to the editor's talk page. It only allows that if you tag the article. And that's my point - a message, a chococlate biscuit even, to the user is more direct, personal and - arguably - motivating??? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- It does send a message to the editor's talk page (example). The message is "also" posted on the article talk page, but if you test it out you'll see that the message is indeed delivered to the editor's talk page. Cheers, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- See? "something huge and basic staring me in the face" as usual... Thanks! :) Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:03, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- It does send a message to the editor's talk page (example). The message is "also" posted on the article talk page, but if you test it out you'll see that the message is indeed delivered to the editor's talk page. Cheers, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Extraordinary Writ Yes, but that's not sending a message to the editor's talk page. It only allows that if you tag the article. And that's my point - a message, a chococlate biscuit even, to the user is more direct, personal and - arguably - motivating??? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wikilove and messages are too loud for my taste and so I save them for cases where I have something specific to say. As a simple courtesy, I will usually thank a creator for starting an article. This seems to require inspection of the article history but that can be useful in confirming who has contributed and how. After I repeatedly thanked such a creator, they recently replied, "I thank you sincerely for your kind reviews on all of my article creations. Those are quite rare on this project. I thank you very much for showing me that kindness!"
- Andrew🐉(talk) 10:07, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Now that is a nice idea! Thanks! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:13, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- At the time, I didn't believe incorporating WikiLove into the Curation Tool was a particularly good idea. And I still don't. However, from the comments I've seen over the years, I'm sure the feed, its filter options, and the Curation Tool are underused. I'm convinced that newer reviewers still haven't fully explored and exploited all the features of the Curation Tool. If they did, and read the tutorial properly, there would be far less criticism of it and fewer claims that Twinkle is so much better. Those who requested the user right would then be more willing to use it rather than be another of the many inactive users among the 700+ reviewers. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, come on, now. Twinkle is pretty sexy... not that I would want to argue with Your Grace... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:04, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Sidebar AfD issue
I've been having issues nominating articles for AfD using the NPP sidebar tool the past couple of days. This type of malformed nomination has happened twice to me (PROD and CSD work fine, though; it is just AfD that has the issue). Is this a problem for anyone else, or am I just peanut-brained? Curbon7 (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Nevermind I just read the thread above, looks like I'm not the only one with this issue. Curbon7 (talk) 21:55, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- If I'm reading your contribs right, the error is that it did everything except make the AFD page, right? Just gathering info so I can add it to a Phabricator ticket. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae, I had the exact same problem as Curbon7 as detailed above. The Curation Tool did everything except making an AfD page. Thanks for looking into this! Netherzone (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- If I'm reading your contribs right, the error is that it did everything except make the AFD page, right? Just gathering info so I can add it to a Phabricator ticket. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Appropriate draft?
I am a relatively new reviewer, but I want to make sure that I am DRAFTIFYing articles appropriately. I drafted article Draft:William Taylour because…
1. The topic has some potential merit
- He was a son of Geoffrey Taylour, 4th Marquess of Headfort.
2. the article does not meet the required standard
- No in-line citations and only passing mentions in the linked source.
3. There is no evidence of active improvement
- The article was not edited to correct these issues for several hours
4. the article does not contain copyright violations.
- None.
Does anyone disagree with my assessment? I just want to know to assure that I do not inappropriately DRAFTIFY something in the future. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 02:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- As he has an entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which is cited in the article, the subject clearly passes WP:ANYBIO criterion 3. The use of general references, as opposed to inline references, is not preferred, but it is permitted. I don't think this was an appropriate draftification. Spicy (talk) 02:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Spicy Since you have page mover, can you move it back? Also for future reference. Can you give me an example of something that I should DRAFTIFY? CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 02:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @CollectiveSolidarity PMR doesn't help if there are multiple edits in the redirect's history. I tagged it for G6 (or R2 who knows what the deleting admin will click) so as soon as an admin finds it and deletes, you (or anyone) can move the draft back. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:35, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Moved, thank you. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 02:43, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @CollectiveSolidarity PMR doesn't help if there are multiple edits in the redirect's history. I tagged it for G6 (or R2 who knows what the deleting admin will click) so as soon as an admin finds it and deletes, you (or anyone) can move the draft back. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:35, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Spicy Since you have page mover, can you move it back? Also for future reference. Can you give me an example of something that I should DRAFTIFY? CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 02:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)