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Title
Hi! I'm Italian. The page Movimiento Social Italiano has got a wrong title, infact the right spelling is Movimento Sociale italiano with a non-capitalized I in italian, because it is an adjective. Could you correct the title of the article? Thank you -- giandrea
- Thanks for finding that error. In fact, it appears that the correct capitalization is "Movimento sociale italiano", per Encarta. [1]. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:37, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm also italian and i don't agree. In Italian the parties names got all capitals , whatever the element of the name is a substantive or an adjective. See for example in the italian Wiki http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partito_Comunista_Italiano http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movimento_Sociale_Italiano http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrazia_Cristiana --Neopagan 17:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, it is true: it is correct to write Movimento Sociale Italiano. I'll correct the page. --Checco 16:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The link to the MSI posters is not working.....
strategy of tension
This section is part history, part conspiracy. See also this article on Gladio. Intangible2.0 (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Title 2
- Some days ago I asked to Nightstallion to move the article for Wikipedia:Most common name. This is our conversation on the issue. --Checco (talk) 14:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi Nightstallion, I would like to make you think abou moving Italian Social Movement–National Right to Italian Social Movement. Even if MSI-DN was the official name during the last years of existance of the party, no-one in Italy actually refers to the party as MSI-DN but simply as MSI.
I think it is the typical case of Wikipedia:Most common name: in fact many Italian political parties have or had complicate and long names, but they are or were referred to simply with the shortened name. Examples? For current parties: the Italian Radicals, whose complete name would be "Italian Radicals. Liberal, Liberist and Libertarian Movement, Constituent Member of the Transnational Radical Party", Union of Christian and Centre Democrats, which should be "Union of Christian Democrats and Centre Democrats", Democratic Left, whose complete name would be "Democratic Left. For Socialism", and Lega Nord, which sould be "Lega Nord for the Independence of Padania". For former parties/coalition: The Olive Tree, which was actually named "The Olive Tree–Together for Italy" and Republican Left, whose complete name should have been "Republican Left–Republicans for the Unity of the Democratic Left". --Checco (talk) 10:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- Mh. Maybe...
- BTW, regarding the above: The ÖVP does have one member of government. —Nightstallion 15:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, even I noticed that the People's Party has a member of the Carinthian government. Thanks.
- Regarding the MSI, what does "maybe" mean? Is it something we can discuss and decide together? --Checco (talk) 17:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about it; I suppose you're right. —Nightstallion 22:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, there is no hurry about it... think! --Checco (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Many thanks. --Checco (talk) 14:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Gladly. —Nightstallion 17:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about it; I suppose you're right. —Nightstallion 22:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Predecessor
I strongly disagree to indicate the Republican Fascist Party as the predecessor of this party. The Italian Social Movement was founded ex novo, the predecession should be removed --Maremmano (talk) 20:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- I will re-insert it, explaining that it was not a legal predecessor. More infos are always better, for readers' sake. --Checco (talk) 08:14, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
- The facts are more important than opinions, MSI was a new party without predecessors, also if it was founded by some RSI's members. This affirmation needs consensus--Maremmano (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
- As I told you many times, your legalistic approach is disputable. It is very useful for readers to know from the infobox that, before the MSI, most Fascists were active in the PFR. It is not a wrong information, if accompanied by an explanatory note. Once again, let me tell you that you need to seek consensus before re-proposing an edit which is not supported by consensus. You are free to edit whichever article you want, but, when a user challenges one of your edits and re-instates the previous compromise or established version, you need to stop re-proposing your version and discuss. --Checco (talk) 08:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
- The facts are more important than opinions, MSI was a new party without predecessors, also if it was founded by some RSI's members. This affirmation needs consensus--Maremmano (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand why my edits need always your "nulla osta", stating that the MSI was the successor of PFR is hasty, wikipedia is however an encyclopedia and these affirmations certainly aren't encyclopedic. It seems that you often confuse the consensus with your permission--Maremmano (talk) 11:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm with Maremmano on this - this is WP:OR. Do we have a reliable source stating that MSI is a successor of PFR? While I agree that many MSI figures were active in the PFR, I don't think this amounts as a formal or informal "predecessor/successor" status, unless some solid source (e.g. a book on MSI) states this. --cyclopiaspeak! 10:37, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- The PFR was the successor of the MSI, as Christian Democracy was the successor of the Italian People's Party. It is such an obvious thing (most leading members of the PFR joined the MSI, whose "Social" referred to the PFR's Italian Social Republic), that does not need sources, but of course there are plenty of them, starting from Storia del movimento sociale italiano: dalle origini del movimento sociale ai giorni nostri: 1946-1991 and Fascisti dopo la liberazione: Storia del Fascismo e dei fascisti nel dopoguerra in Italia : Dalla Repubblica Sociale al Movimento Sociale Italiano: 1945-1956. Obviously, in 1946 the MSI could not be the formal successor of the PFR: the Italian Constitution forbade (and forbids) the re-creation of the "Fascist Party" (at least under that name). --Checco (talk) 10:56, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Checco. It doesn't need to be a formal legal successor to be considered a successor party academically. Legal status is a technicality. The reasons why it wasn't a formal successor party are much more superficial than the ways in which it is. --4idaho (talk) 19:19, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- I also agree with 4idaho and Checco, in many cases a successor party can be a de facto successor rather than a legally recognised successor organisation, particularly in a case like this where there was a constitutional element to preventing legal recognition.--Autospark (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
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Political position
@Checco: Could you point me out where the sources you entered indicate precisely the MSI as a just right-wing party? I have read these sources:
- the first source makes a very generic initial reference to the right, and then begins to analyze movements and parties of the radical right; therefore, de facto, it refers to the radical right;
- the second source just makes another generic reference to the right;
- the third source describes the Italian Democratic Party of Monarchical Unity as a right-wing party;
- the fourth source refers to the word missino and it's the only source that actually describes the MSI as a right-wing party (I noticed this later). The source is authoritative, but the specific lemma of the encyclopedia Treccani ([2]) describes the MSI a little differently: practically, Treccani describes it as a radical right-wing party.
Furthermore, the neo-fascist ideology (and moreover as the main ideology) automatically makes a party only of the far-right. MSI is currently being put on an equal footing with Brothers of Italy, but that's not quite the case. I think an RFC will be needed as has already happened for the French National Rally.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
- There is nothing automatic. I am personally opposed to the "xxxx to xxxx" format and I would remove political positions altogether from party infoboxes because they are ultimately deceptive as those terms vary too much from country to country. However, the "xxxx to xxxx" format is very common in Wikipedia and, for consistency, it can be used also here. I offered four sources and your evaluation is not correct: the first source clearly explains how, differently from radical right parties, the MSI was more mainstream; the second source includes the MSI among "right-wing parties"; the third source describes the MSI as a "right-wing party" ("In the 1972 general elections MSI joined with another right-wing party", thus also the MSI was a right-wing party); the fourth souce describes the MSI as a "right-wing party". If "far-right" and "far-left" are used, only extreme fringe parties should apply: the abuse of "far-right" and "far-left" in Wikipedia is definitely a problem. The MSI was not extreme, especially in later years: for instance, it was keenly Atlanticist. --Checco (talk) 18:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- The MSI was Atlanticist when its leaders were Augusto De Marsanich and Arturo Michelini: in that period it was a righ-wing party. Treccani itself claims that the party was not moderate after the end of their leadership ([3]). Including a movement or organization generically in the right-wing area does not mean that it is just a "right-wing party". A right-wing terrorist organization remains a far-right organization, without the necessity to specify it, it's pretty elementary. The first three sources do not state what you are claiming, the fourth source (the definition of Missino di Treccani) is better specified in the lemma concerning the same MSI. Furthermore, if you do not approve the xxx to xxx format, this party would be all the more referred to as a far-right party. I advise you to find more adequate sources. Anyway I will start a Rfc, certainly the MSI was no more moderate than the current French National Rally.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Can you pull out a quote or page number from the sources in question that you think supports this? I am not seeing it at a glance, and the fact that the context of all these sources is books about the far-right makes me skeptical of your interpretation. I definitely don't think that something like
In the 1972 general elections MSI joined with another right-wing party
is sufficient, though; after all, that describes what unified the entire coalition, not MSI specifically. The fact that that source describes it further down as having afascist heritage
seems a lot more significant. A far-right party is, by definition, a type of right-wing party, so if you want to argue against the sources that describe it as far-right you will need sources that use right-wing in a way that clearly has a different meaning and distinguishes it from the far right, rather than ones that vaguely just lump it in with the rest of the right. Something like "it formed an alliance with another right-wing party" in the context of describing it as a neofascist party whose reputation caused the collapse of the first government it joined doesn't really qualify. Or, in other words - the "X to Y" phrasing is for when we have sources that specifically say that the party covers that sort of wide ground, which I don't think your sources do. --Aquillion (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2022 (UTC)- I question the extensive usage of "far-right" and "far-left" for parties which are not fringe or extemist ones, I think that political positions should be avoided because they are too deceptive and I also question the usage of the "xxxx to xxxx" format. However, as of now, political parties have political positions in the infoboxes and the "xxxx to xxxx" format is used for several parties. It can be used also here. I consider the MSI, let alone the French National Rally, just a right-wing party and not a far-right one, but established consensus, sources and Wikipedia customs are for "right-wing to far-right". Heritage is of little importance, otherwise we should describe the Spanish PP as far-right because of its Francoist heritage. The MSI travelled a long way from fascism and was a post-fascist party, not a neo-fascist one (the Italian Constitution forbids the re-foundation of the Fascist Party). Indeed, the issue before us is quite simple: the MSI, depending on sources, can be describe as "right-wing" or "far-right"; per Wikipedia custom, we should continue to have "right-wing to far-right". The sources for "far-right" are not better than those I provided for "right-wing": one uses "Far Right" as synonym for the MSI, exactly as one of my sources uses "Italian right" as synonym for the MSI, while another one is unverifiable. We should go back to the established consensus and the sources on "right-wing" should be included. --Checco (talk) 13:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- Those sources do not describe the MSI as a classic right-wing party and it has already been explained why. The "xxx to xxx format" is used when a party is indistinctly described with both one position and another (such as League and FdI). This does not seem to be the case with the MSI: there may be sources describing the MSI simply as a right-wing party, but certainly not those sources.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- I question the extensive usage of "far-right" and "far-left" for parties which are not fringe or extemist ones, I think that political positions should be avoided because they are too deceptive and I also question the usage of the "xxxx to xxxx" format. However, as of now, political parties have political positions in the infoboxes and the "xxxx to xxxx" format is used for several parties. It can be used also here. I consider the MSI, let alone the French National Rally, just a right-wing party and not a far-right one, but established consensus, sources and Wikipedia customs are for "right-wing to far-right". Heritage is of little importance, otherwise we should describe the Spanish PP as far-right because of its Francoist heritage. The MSI travelled a long way from fascism and was a post-fascist party, not a neo-fascist one (the Italian Constitution forbids the re-foundation of the Fascist Party). Indeed, the issue before us is quite simple: the MSI, depending on sources, can be describe as "right-wing" or "far-right"; per Wikipedia custom, we should continue to have "right-wing to far-right". The sources for "far-right" are not better than those I provided for "right-wing": one uses "Far Right" as synonym for the MSI, exactly as one of my sources uses "Italian right" as synonym for the MSI, while another one is unverifiable. We should go back to the established consensus and the sources on "right-wing" should be included. --Checco (talk) 13:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
For example, the second source posted by User:Autospark states that the MSI was a right-wing party (I am unable to read the first source). For this reason I think that at the moment the page can stay like this, but the underlying problem remains. There has been an Rfc on the political position of the French National Rally, which is currently more moderate than the MSI. So I'm going to start a RFC for this party too, in order to have a definitive consensus on the political position of the party.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:58, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
RFC: Italian Social Movement political position
Looking at reliable sources, how should we describe the political position of the Italian Social Movement?
- Option 1: Right-wing
- Option 2: Far-right
- Option 3: Right-wing to far-right
Please choose one of the three options, preferably together with a motivation and reliable sources that explicitly support the party's political position.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:20, 28 May 2022 (UTC) --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Survey
- Per the description of the party in the current lead, Option 4: center-right to far-right. (Failing that, option 1, but I don't think that quite captures the transformation of the party over time.) Option 3 as currently phrased is nonsensical: "right-wing" includes "far-right". Loki (talk) 00:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2: The MSI has never been a centre-right party. In some years it has had a more moderate political line (1950s/60s and 1993/94) but it has generally always been described as a neo-fascist party and therefore as a far-right party. The infobox itself describes the MSI as a successor to the Fascist Party (although I'm not fully convinced of that information). All these data are in contrast with a simple "right-wing position". And as stated by the user above, "Right-wing" often includes the concept of "Far-right", so some sources may refer generically to the MSI as a right-wing party, without however excluding that it was actually a far-right party. Ps. Furthermore, two years ago it was decided through Rfc to describe the National Rally as a far-right party, but this party is now certainly more moderate than MSI was. I believe that a certain consistency is needed both with the information inside the page (which describes it as a neo-fascist party) and with the pages of other parties.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 09:41, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 or only “neo-fascist”: MSI became “centre-right” AN in the 1990s under Fini (per BBC) or as being in the “right-wing” group (per NYTimes), and the MSI under Almirante is described as “right-wing” (per BBC). I would generally avoid sensationalist labels and as an overall summary anything more seems not suitable, particularly when the lead is mentioning it having moderated and that seems the bulk of its existence. (Looking at NY Times articles 1946 to early 1950s versus the late 1950s thru early 1990s.) I also think the better (more common) RS use is actually just “neo-fascist”, in a factual sense and not hyperbolic labelling, so it could just use that and none of the option listed. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:19, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1. The party was broadly right-wing. It was post-fascist (neo-fascist would be an exaggeration), but it was not a fringe or extremist party. In my view, "far-right" and "far-left" should be used only for parties on the fringe or opposing democracy. I also think that political positions should be avoided in party infoboxes as they are too deceptive and depends so much on the national context—it is no surprise that political positions are not included in the infoboxes of the United States Republican and Democratic parties. The "xxxx to xxxx" format is also not a good thing, but I could accept "right-wing to far-right" as compromise. --Checco (talk) 03:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2, per WP:RS. I have seen no reliable source explicitly stating that MSI is a classical right-wing party as opposed to far-right. Instead there is a plethora of sources describing MSI as far-right or radical right. Also, neo-fascism and post-fascism are far-right ideologies, so if MSI is broadly neo-fascist or post-fascist, then the best descriptor is definitely far-right, rather than right-wing. What happened afterwards with Fini and AN does not change what MSI was: a far-right party. Yakme (talk) 06:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2, There are sources (e.g. Williams[1]) that characterize Italian Social Movement as a radical right-wing party. The characterization even cites the "radical right wing" social movement as a model adopted by other organizations such as the French neo-fascist organization, Ordre Nouveau. Darwin Naz (talk) 12:15, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 per my analysis of the sources above; the sources that go into depth on its politics describe it as far-right or words to that effect, and a few passing mentions that lump it into broad lists of right-wing parties do not contradict this, especially when even many of those sources describe it in ways that emphasize that it is clearly radical. --Aquillion (talk) 20:26, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Option 3 covers all the bases of different sources and times. --Seggallion (talk) 12:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)sock puppet of banned user
- Option 2 broadly per others above. Sources seem to favor radical or far-right. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:40, 8 June 2022 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
- Option 1 or (to a lesser degree of support) Option 3 as a compromise – if we decide, collectively, on the former, there still should be some direct mention in the article body with sources that the party has been notably described as far-right.--Autospark (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strongly Option 2 : Far right, per the veritable plethora of sources that denote the party as such, or as of even more radical ideology.
- Jeffrey M. Bale's seminal The Darkest Side of Politics, Vol.I, Postwar Fascism, Covert Operations, And Terrorism (Routledge, 2018) has the MSI as "neo-fascist" (pp.85, 367); journal articles where MSI is defined as of the estrema destra, e.g. Ignazi, Piero (August 1992). "Nuovi a Vecchi Partiti di Estrema Destra in Europa" [New and Old Parties of the Extreme Right in Europe]. Rivista Italiana di Scienza Politica (in Italian). 22 (2): 293–333.; newspapaper articles, such as one in a conservative Italian newspaper (Curridori, Francesco (26 December 2016). "C'era una volta il Movimento Sociale Italiano" [There was once upon a time the Italian social Movement]. Il Giornale (in Italian).); numerous theses have it as an "extreme right" party, "neofascist", or "far right" e.g. Conte, Michele (2006). Far-Right Identities in Italy: An analysis of contemporary Italian Far-Right Parties (PhD). Lund University.; numerous studies referring to the estrema destra of MSI, such as Il MSI da Michelini ad Almirante of Pier Paolo Cetera; and so on and so forth. The pool is veritably bottomless. There are no serious references to MSI as simply of the "right" except for short-hand and only after the party having being denoted in far strongert terms. Same goes for "conservatism": It's a term sometimes used for MSI positions but only in the context of MSI being a party of the extreme right, the far right. -The Gnome (talk) 19:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Threaded Discussion
- Comment I agree with User:LokiTheLiar that the MSI had also "centre-right" elements, as well as "far-right" ones, that is why I think that "right-wing" is a fitting categorisation. It would be a little bit awkward, but I would accept also "centre-right to far-right", as you proposed. --Checco (talk) 03:29, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Checco and LokiTheLiar: You would like to describe the MSI as a centre-right party, but I would like to remind you that these claims should be supported by at least any source, not by personal opinions. On the other hand, I have never known centre-right neo-fascist parties... --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, my preference goes to "right-wing", which is mentioned in several souces, and that covers the spectrum of a political party, which had a broad centre-right majority and a far-right minority. The MSI, especially from the 1970s, was home to conservatives of all stripes as well as liberals, religious consevatives as well as anti-clericals, monarchists and republicans, and so on. All the parties of the so-called Italian "First Republic" were very heterogenous, so that, after the realignment started in 1992–1994, people from all the old parties joined each and every new party. What is sure is that the MSI was not neo-fascist as some fringe groups (i.e. New Force) are. More correctly, it was a post-fascist party and, starting from the 1970s, it absorbed politicians with different political roots. Anyway, also the neo-/post-fascism = far-right equation is not correct, otherwise what should we say of the Christian democrats who co-operated with the Francoist regime and, its political heirs, mainly the People's Alliance/Party? --Checco (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- I just read a whole lot of WP:OR and no substance here. By the way, collaborating with a fascist regime is not equivalent to being neo-fascist or post-fascist. OTOH being ideologically neo-fascist means immediately belonging to the far right of the political spectrum. Yakme (talk) 19:28, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, my preference goes to "right-wing", which is mentioned in several souces, and that covers the spectrum of a political party, which had a broad centre-right majority and a far-right minority. The MSI, especially from the 1970s, was home to conservatives of all stripes as well as liberals, religious consevatives as well as anti-clericals, monarchists and republicans, and so on. All the parties of the so-called Italian "First Republic" were very heterogenous, so that, after the realignment started in 1992–1994, people from all the old parties joined each and every new party. What is sure is that the MSI was not neo-fascist as some fringe groups (i.e. New Force) are. More correctly, it was a post-fascist party and, starting from the 1970s, it absorbed politicians with different political roots. Anyway, also the neo-/post-fascism = far-right equation is not correct, otherwise what should we say of the Christian democrats who co-operated with the Francoist regime and, its political heirs, mainly the People's Alliance/Party? --Checco (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Checco and LokiTheLiar: You would like to describe the MSI as a centre-right party, but I would like to remind you that these claims should be supported by at least any source, not by personal opinions. On the other hand, I have never known centre-right neo-fascist parties... --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
After two months, it seems to me that the consensus for option 2 emerged from this Rfc: 3 preferences for option 1, 5 preferences for option 2 and one preference (annulled) for option 3, it means that an absolute majority of users (5 out of 8/9) have expressed their preference for option 2. Also, no reliable sources have been provided that explicitly support the only right-wing political position of the party, so I think I can proceed accordingly.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 11:31, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Scia Della Cometa: No you cannot. This is not how an RfC works, and by now you should really know given the amount of RfCs that you have been involved with. I will revert your edit. Yakme (talk) 09:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Yakme: Maybe it's you that don't know how a Rfc works, you must read Wikipedia:Requests for comment#RFCs ending: so, or you revert yourself, or you ask for a formal closure. The choice at you.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I still think you have not read how RfCs work. An uninvolved editor has to close it. Yakme (talk) 13:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Yakme: I still think that you should read the rules of RFCs before commenting: "If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable. Written closing statements are not required. Editors are expected to be able to evaluate and agree upon the results of most RfCs without outside assistance" and "If the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion". First of all, until now, the consensus was quite clear (the absolute majority of users had expressed themselves for an option). Autospark expressed his opinion later (out of time): this partly changes the final result, which before today was quite clear. "Anyone who wants an uninvolved editor to write a closing summary of the discussion (ideally with a determination of consensus) can formally request closure by posting at Wikipedia:Closure requests": it's not mandatory. You should read the rules before stating that I do not know them: I have the right to close the Rfc and make its outcome concrete, if you do not agree with it, it is you who can ask for formal closure by an uninvolved user. Ps. Even the last Rfc on the list of Italian parties could have been closed by me, had I not first asked for its formal closure ("The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time, and one of them can remove the rfc template.").--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I still think you have not read how RfCs work. An uninvolved editor has to close it. Yakme (talk) 13:03, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Yakme: Maybe it's you that don't know how a Rfc works, you must read Wikipedia:Requests for comment#RFCs ending: so, or you revert yourself, or you ask for a formal closure. The choice at you.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I see that unfortunately you still have not learned anything from your topic ban on the list of Italian political parties. I expected that, I knew that was useless, but anyway. Of course a vote count is not the way to evaluate consensus on WP, and also 5–3 (actually 5–4 now) does not count as an "obvious" consensus. You do not in fact "have the right to close the RfC" especially if you are the OP. You asked the WP community to evaluate a question you proposed, and you should let the community decide, independently of your judgement. That's what an RfC is for. Anyway, I already asked for closure of this RfC since it has been long time since it started. PS: the sentence "The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time, and one of them can remove the rfc template" obviously does not mean that any participant can close the RfC when they like; it means that there must be an apparent consensus to close it amongst all participants: it's not the case here, as it was not the case for the list of Italian parties. Yakme (talk) 23:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Off topic: I learned just one thing from that block: that users who complained that they could not intervene in the discussion due to my and Checco's monopolization, after our block they washed their hands of it (yeah, a practically useless block). And anyway, yes, I could have easily closed the Rfc on Italian parties, the only users who intervened agreed to close it and the OP had pulled out, so it was my prerogative, unfortunately I had already asked for the formal closure and this has complicated everything.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Nobody intervened because people are waiting for the closure of that utter mess of an RFC that you guys approved to start, and contributed to make messier and messier by insisting on your petty positions without having a minimum amount of patience. Anyway this is not the place where to discuss about that topic. And I insist still: no, you could not "easily" close an RFC that had multiple editors !voting, and was still ongoing, just by a personal agreement between you and Checco. This is not how RFCs work!!! Yakme (talk) 09:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Off topic: I learned just one thing from that block: that users who complained that they could not intervene in the discussion due to my and Checco's monopolization, after our block they washed their hands of it (yeah, a practically useless block). And anyway, yes, I could have easily closed the Rfc on Italian parties, the only users who intervened agreed to close it and the OP had pulled out, so it was my prerogative, unfortunately I had already asked for the formal closure and this has complicated everything.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I see that unfortunately you still have not learned anything from your topic ban on the list of Italian political parties. I expected that, I knew that was useless, but anyway. Of course a vote count is not the way to evaluate consensus on WP, and also 5–3 (actually 5–4 now) does not count as an "obvious" consensus. You do not in fact "have the right to close the RfC" especially if you are the OP. You asked the WP community to evaluate a question you proposed, and you should let the community decide, independently of your judgement. That's what an RfC is for. Anyway, I already asked for closure of this RfC since it has been long time since it started. PS: the sentence "The RfC participants can agree to end it at any time, and one of them can remove the rfc template" obviously does not mean that any participant can close the RfC when they like; it means that there must be an apparent consensus to close it amongst all participants: it's not the case here, as it was not the case for the list of Italian parties. Yakme (talk) 23:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
A fine solution would be to keep the "right-wing to far-right" wording, as both "right-wing" and "far-right" are supported by sources and consensus. --Checco (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think that after yesterday's last preference it takes more time to define the consensus.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Funny that such a "clear consensus" that you thought was there, changed so drastically by just one additional opinion... Probably it was not such a WP:SNOW consensus, was it? Yakme (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'll tell you again: you better take it down a peg! Because frankly I'm starting to get quite tired of this opinionated attitude. I am still personally convinced that there is consensus in this rfc, only now it is weaker than before: with a reduced number of users a preference can make a difference, very simple. And in the other rfc, for days Checco and I were the only ones to intervene, your statement about the non-intervention of other users seems to me a process of the intentions of other users. And now enough with this boring discussion of topic, which has nothing to do with this rfc, we have to decide whether to conclude this rfc (and with what outcome) or whether to continue it, accusations and personal complaints have nothing to do here.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- You still don't get it.
we have to decide whether to conclude this rfc (and with what outcome) or whether to continue it
: no, we do not! I requested closure and an uninvolved editor will close it! Now let's stop adding gibberish and non-constructive discussions on this thread. Yakme (talk) 13:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- The fact that you asked for closure does not at all mean that this Rfc will be necessarily closed by someone, you should know, the previous Rfc docet. If I acted like this, it is because I read the rules and I know I could do it, I did not act randomly as you think. Then everyone can challenge my interpretation of the outcome of the RFC, but this does not change anything about the initiatives that each user can undertake. And now stop with this tedious bickering, please.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- You still don't get it.
- I'll tell you again: you better take it down a peg! Because frankly I'm starting to get quite tired of this opinionated attitude. I am still personally convinced that there is consensus in this rfc, only now it is weaker than before: with a reduced number of users a preference can make a difference, very simple. And in the other rfc, for days Checco and I were the only ones to intervene, your statement about the non-intervention of other users seems to me a process of the intentions of other users. And now enough with this boring discussion of topic, which has nothing to do with this rfc, we have to decide whether to conclude this rfc (and with what outcome) or whether to continue it, accusations and personal complaints have nothing to do here.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Funny that such a "clear consensus" that you thought was there, changed so drastically by just one additional opinion... Probably it was not such a WP:SNOW consensus, was it? Yakme (talk) 09:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)