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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2021
2405:3800:84C:1C73:BFE8:1B92:BD8B:9896 (talk) 11:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
<Al-Aqsa Mosque was built by King Solomon some David>
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2021
In the section Definition, please delete these repeated words: "to the to the silver-domed mosque on the compound's southern side". 109.175.155.99 (talk) 14:41, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:43, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Recent edits regarding gates
@Aye1399: Thank you for your recent additions to the article. Unfortunately, I had to remove them as they pertain to the gates of the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. Although "al-Aqsa" may also refer to the entire Haram, this article is specifically about the mosque. You may want to move the material to the Gates of the Temple Mount. If you do so, please avoid adding any redundant material or information cited to non-reliable sources. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Naming
As far as I know, the predominant, prevalent, common English term for this structure is "Al-Aqsa Mosque". It is well noted in Academic sources, international media reports, and other publications. On the same time, the term "al-Qibli chapel" is virtually non-existent in English-language sources. In Google Scholar, I found 17,000 mentions of the term al-Aqsa Mosque, while "al-Qibli Chapel" is mentioned only 74 times, and most of the mentions do not refer to the site in question on the Temple Mount. Due to this, WP:COMMONNAME requires that this article use the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" rather than any another term. We don't want to confuse our readers. Thanks Tombah (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that avoiding confusion is key. Per the lede at Temple Mount, and the discussion at Talk:Temple Mount#Naming, "Al-Aqsa Mosque" seems to be primarily used for the subject of our Temple Mount article. That is certainly the case for all the press surrounding the 2022 Al-Aqsa Mosque clashes. I am not sure about the primary name for the topic of this article, but it is clear that the name Al Aqsa Mosque needs disambiguation. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
See discussion at Talk:Temple Mount#Al Aqsa Mosque, where many sources have been provided which confirm this. Onceinawhile (talk) 02:06, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- These and more have now been added to the article.
- Noone at the discussion at Talk:Temple Mount has yet been able to show that there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Al Aqsa Mosque".
- Assuming we cannot confirm a primary topic, the question will be how to appropriately disambiguate this article with a minor amendment to the title.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Do we need to consider having an Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) / Al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)-type disambiguation? Iskandar323 (talk) 12:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think those titles make a lot of sense. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:38, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Do we need to consider having an Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) / Al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)-type disambiguation? Iskandar323 (talk) 12:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 30 May 2022
Al-Aqsa Mosque → Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) – Disambiguation of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as the term refers to both the congregational mosque ("Jami'a" in Arabic) or the entire mosque compound ("Masjid" in Arabic, cognate with Temple Mount). For sources see the "Definition" section of this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:56, 13 June 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 00:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are you proposing to create a disambiguation page? What will become of Al-Aqsa Mosque? Is the hatnote really insufficient? I oppose because it seems to me that the primary topic is the building and not the complex. Al-Aqsa Mosque is frequently distinguished from the Dome of the Rock, for instance. The Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd ed., knows only the building as the masjid al-aqsa in its article. Srnec (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just for the record, this
because it seems to me that the primary topic is the building and not the complex
is not consistent with our primary topic policy. Our PTOPIC policy doesn’t work in the same way as COMMONNAME, where we make a relative judgement. Our PTOPIC policy requires us to decide whether itis highly likely — much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined — to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term
. Noone has attempted to challenge this so far - for one, you would need to believe it was highly likely that a reader typing this name was not looking to learn about the third holiest site in Islam (which is confirmed as the compound in all the scholarly sources below). Onceinawhile (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2022 (UTC)- Two issues are being conflated by Onceinawhile here. The comment by Srnec is about the name Al-Aqsa Mosque, not about the name Al-Aqsa. It seems unlikely to me that someone typing Al-Aqsa Mosque wants an article on the Temple Mount, and highly likely that they want instead the Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) (by whatever name). Not to you? Andrewa (talk) 17:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I most certainly agree that someone typing Al-Aqsa mosque does not want an article on the Temple Mount. As for someone typing Al-Aqsa, that's a different question. Otherwise, I have no idea what two issues are being conflated. Selfstudier (talk) 17:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Al Aqsa is Arabic for "The Farthest". It is simply an abbreviation of "The Farthest Mosque", Masjid Al Aqsa, itself a synonym of Temple Mount. And Masjid is Arabic for Mosque.
- To add some context to this, see a detailed explanation here:
Reiter, Yitzhak (2008). Jerusalem and Its Role in Islamic Solidarity. Palgrave Macmillan US. pp. 21–23. ISBN 978-0-230-61271-6.
During the Middle Ages, when the issue of Jerusalem's status was a point of controversy, the supporters of Jerusalem's importance (apparently after its liberation from Crusader control) succeeded in attributing to al-Quds or to Bayt-al-Maqdis (the Arabic names for Jerusalem) the status of haram that had been accorded to the sacred compound. The site was thus called al-Haram al-Sharif, or al-Haram al-Qudsi al-Sharif. Haram, from an Arabic root meaning "prohibition," is a place characterized by a particularly high level of sanctity-a protected place in which blood may not be shed, trees may not be felled, and animals may not be hunted. The status of haram was given in the past to the Sacred Mosque in Mecca and to the Mosque of the Prophet in al-Madina (and some also accorded this status to the Valley of Wajj in Ta'if on the Arabian Peninsula?). Thus, al-Masjid al-Aqsa became al-Haram al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary) in order to emphasize its exalted status alongside the two other Muslim sanctuaries. Although, as noted before, Ibn-Taymiyya refuted the haram status of the Jerusalem mosque, al-Aqsa's upgrading to haram status was successful and has prevailed. It became a commonly accepted idea and one referred to in international forums and documents. It was, therefore, surprising that during the 1980s the Palestinians gradually abandoned the name that had been given to the Haram/Temple Mount compound in apparent honor of Jerusalem's status as third in sanctity - al-Haram al-Sharif - in favor of its more traditional name-al-Aqsa. An examination of relevant religious texts clarifies the situation: since the name al-Aqsa appears in the Quran, all Muslims around the world should be familiar with it; thus it is easier to market the al-Aqsa brand-name. An additional factor leading to a return to the Qur'anic name is an Israeli demand to establish a Jewish prayer space inside the open court of the compound. The increased use of the name al-Aqsa is particularly striking against the background of what is written on the Web site of the Jerusalem Waqf, under the leadership of (former) Palestinian mufti Sheikh Ikrima Sabri. There it is asserted that "al Masjid al-Aqsa was erroneously called by the name al-Haram al-Qudsi al-Sharif," and that the site's correct name is al-Aqsa. This statement was written in the context of a fatwa in response to a question addressed to the Web site's scholars regarding the correct interpretation of the Isra' verse in the Quran (17:1), which tells of the Prophet Muhammad's miraculous Night Journey from the "Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque"-al-Aqsa. In proof of this, Sabri quotes Ibn-Taymiyya, who denied the existence of haram in Jerusalem, a claim that actually serves those seeking to undermine the city's sacred status. Sabri also states that Arab historians such as Mujir al-Din al-Hanbali, author of the famed fifteenth-century work on Jerusalem, do not make use of the term "haram" in connection with the al-Aqsa site. Both Ibn-Taymiyya and Mujir al-Din were affiliated with the Hanbali School of law-the relatively more puritan stream in Islam that prevailed in Saudi Arabia. The Hanbalies rejected innovations, such as the idea of a third haram. One cannot exclude the possibility that the Saudis, who during the 1980s and 1990s donated significant funds to Islamic institutions in Jerusalem, exerted pressure on Palestinian-Muslim figures to abandon the term "haram" in favor of "al-Aqsa". The "al-Aqsa" brand-name has thus become popular and prevalent. Al-Haram al-Sharif is still used by official bodies (the Organization of the Islamic Conference [OIC], the Arab League), in contrast to religious entities. The public currently uses the two names interchangeably. During the last generation, increasing use has been made of the term "al-Aqsa" as a symbol and as the name of various institutions and organizations. Thus, for example, the Jordanian military periodical that has been published since the early 1970s is called al-Aqsa; the Palestinian police unit established by the PA in Jericho is called the Al-Aqsa Division; the Fatah's armed organization is called the Al-Aqsa Brigades; the Palestinian Police camp in Jericho is called the Al-Aqsa Camp; the Web sites of the southern and northern branches of the Islamic movement in Israel and the associations that they have established are called al-Aqsa; the Intifada that broke out in September 2000 is called the al-Aqsa Intifada and the Arab summit that was held in the wake of the Intifada's outbreak was called the al-Aqsa Summit. These are only a few examples of a growing phenomenon.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 18:29, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Those are the two. The meaning of Al-Aqsa Mosque raises different issues to those concerning the name Al-Aqsa. Exactly! Andrewa (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I most certainly agree that someone typing Al-Aqsa mosque does not want an article on the Temple Mount. As for someone typing Al-Aqsa, that's a different question. Otherwise, I have no idea what two issues are being conflated. Selfstudier (talk) 17:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Two issues are being conflated by Onceinawhile here. The comment by Srnec is about the name Al-Aqsa Mosque, not about the name Al-Aqsa. It seems unlikely to me that someone typing Al-Aqsa Mosque wants an article on the Temple Mount, and highly likely that they want instead the Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) (by whatever name). Not to you? Andrewa (talk) 17:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Just for the record, this
- @Srnec: here is the article on Masjid Al-Aqsa from the Encyclopaedia of Islam, 2nd ed. It clearly explains both uses. Grabar, who wrote the article for the EoI, was wrong to not even mention Mujir ad-Din, Robinson, Palmer, Le Strange etc., who each explain the difference between Jami’a Al Aqsa and Masjid Al Aqsa – poor scholarship in a tertiary source.
- My belief is that the confusion in English stems from a back-translation of Mosque of Al Aqsa. Both Jami’a and Masjid are translated as Mosque, whilst the word Mosque is derived from Masjid, so the back-translation process would have been Jami’a -> Mosque -> Masjid.
- Yes disambiguation. For the ubiquitous term "al-Aqsa" the primary usage is very clearly the Temple Mount, as 100% of the events (see where they occurred) and organizations (see Dome of the Rock in most logos) are named for it. The term "al-Aqsa" in all these places is literally just a shortening of Masjid Al-Aqsa, i.e. "Al Aqsa Mosque".
- Onceinawhile (talk) 06:03, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- From the Encyclopedia of Islam source above, "The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next to the Dome of the Rock" Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also notes that the term was used for centuries for the Haram al-Sharif, and occasionally for the whole of Jerusalem. A versatile name indeed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- And, per above, the "most common use of the words" is not the right policy-based test here. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also notes that the term was used for centuries for the Haram al-Sharif, and occasionally for the whole of Jerusalem. A versatile name indeed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another important reason for disambiguation is the widely known phrase "The Al Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam". That refers to the Temple Mount, not this article. See for example: Lassner, J. (2017). Medieval Jerusalem: Forging an Islamic City in Spaces Sacred to Christians and Jews. University of Michigan Press. p. 36. ISBN 978-0-472-13036-8.
[Quoting Thawr ibn Yazid]: "The holiest part of the earth is al-Sham; the holiest part of al-Sham is [the subdistrict] Filastin; the holiest part of Filastin is Jerusalem (Bayt al-Maqdis), the holiest part of Jerusalem is the [temple] mount (al-jabal); the holiest part of the mount is the temple [rendered in Arabic as al-masjid], and the holiest part of the temple is the dome (qubbah)." Quite obviously, "the dome" refers to the Dome of the Rock (Qubbat al-Sahkrah), the magnificent Islamic structure said by Muslims to surmount the primeval rock.
Onceinawhile (talk) 09:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)- Honestly, you could even argue that there are three layers of meaning here: the prayer hall, the mosque compound at large, and the broader space. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Onceinawhile, I am not convinced of the distinctions you are making. It seems to me that the name of the mosque is applied to the area by synechdoche. A search of masjid al-aqsa in GScholar reveals plenty of results that can only refer to the building. Srnec (talk) 13:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Srnec: thanks for engaging here. The synechdoche is the other way round - the name of the mosque (the compound) is applied to the building by synechdoche. This is stated and explained by Mujir ad-Din, Robinson, Palmer, Le Strange etc.[1][2][3][4]
- That is misleading, Robinson uses “mosk el-Aksa” for al-Aqsa Mosque. Le Strange writes that “the native authorities use the technical terms in an extraordinarily inexact manner, often confounding the whole, and its part, under the single denomination of "Masjid." Further, the usage of various writers differs considerably on these points.” Throughout the book he quotes authors who use Aksa mosque specifically for the building. For example: “This stone is to be seen built into the north wall of (the Haram Area that surrounds) the Aksa Mosque." and “it is related how 'Abd al Malik built the Dome of the Rock and the Aksa Mosque...and on the Mosque-roof there were seven thousand seven hundred sheets of lead, each sheet weighing 70 ratls, Syrian measure (420 lbs.)” His own anecdote: “the Latins considered the Aksa Mosque to hold a very secondary place (while the Dome of the Rock was in their eyes the true Templum Domini). Drsmoo (talk) 06:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Robinson clearly says that Mesjid el-Aksa = Temple Mount. Our article mosque states clearly in the first sentence that Masjid = Mosque.
- Le Strange's work includes an essay specifically on the ambiguity we are grappling with here:
"Masjid al Aksâ (the Further Mosque) at Jerusalem "—the term “Mosque" being here taken to denote the whole area of the Noble Sanctuary, and not the Main-building of the Akså only, which, in the Prophet's days, did not exist… [it is] necessary to enter into some explanations of the Arab and technical usage of the word “mosque.”… Masjid in Arabic means " a place of prostration (in prayer);" and therefore to revert once again to Ibn Tûlûn's Mosque, (1) the Mainbuilding, A; (2) the Court, and (3) the Colonnades at the back, B; with those (4) to the right, C; to the left, D; as also (5) the Dome E in the Court-one and all form essential parts of the mosque, and are all comprehended by the term “Al Masjid.' Bearing these points in mind, and coming to the Noble Sanctuary at Jerusalem, we find that the term “Masjid," as already stated, is commonly applied not only to the Aksâ Mosque (more properly the Jâmi', or “place of assembly," for prayer), but to the whole enclosure of the great Court, with the Dome of the Rock in the middle, and all the other minor domes, and chapels, and colonnades…. Mukaddasi invariably speaks of the whole Haram Area as Al Masjid, or as Al Masjid al Aksî, “the Akså Mosque,” or “the mosque," while the Main-building of the mosque, at the south end of the Haram Area, which we generally term the Aksa, he refers to as Al Mughattâ, “the Covered-part.” Thus he writes "the mosque is entered by thirteen gates," meaning the gates of the Haram Area. So also "on the right of the court,” means along the west wall of the Haram Area; "on the left side” means the east wall; and “at the back” denotes the northern boundary wall of the Haram Area. Nasir-i-Khusrau, who wrote in Persian, uses for the Main-building of the Aksâ Mosque the Persian word Pushish, that is, “Covered part,” which exactly translates the Arabic Al Mughatta. On some occasions, however, the Akså Mosque (as we call it) is spoken of by Näsir as the Maksurah, a term used especially to denote the railed-off oratory of the Sultan, facing the Mihrâb, and hence in an extended sense applied to the building which includes the same. The great Court of the Haram Area, Nâsir always speaks of as the Masjid, or the Masjid al Akså, or again as the Friday Mosque (Masjid-i-Jum'ah). In the presence of this ambiguity of terms, I have thought it better to translate Al Masjid and the various other phrases by " the Haram Area,” or “the Noble Sanctuary,” in the one case, and by “the Akså Mosque" in the other, as circumstances demanded, and in accordance with the context; in order thus to render the translation perfectly clear to European readers."
- Onceinawhile (talk) 09:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Robinson clearly says that Mesjid el-Aksa = Temple Mount. Our article mosque states clearly in the first sentence that Masjid = Mosque." Except that he uses "Mosk el-Aksa" for the same subject as this (Certified Good) article's title "Al-Aqsa Mosque", which is the English common name and has been for over a hundred years it seems. Per Le Strange: "the Akså Mosque (as we call it)". The whole impetus for this move discussion is whether the title Al-Aqsa Mosque leads to confusion among English readers. Both of these sources attest to Aksa Mosque/Mosk el-Aksa being the English term for the subject. Multiple editors have come in to say the same. Along with New York Times, Oxford Islamic Studies, and the Encyclopedia of Islam, et al. At this point, the argument supporting the move is essentially that the name currently used in English is itself confused and based on a mistranslation. But that is not how article titles are determined. Drsmoo (talk) 13:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- We are talking about whether the title needs disambiguation. You appear to be agreeing that it does. Selfstudier (talk) 13:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Robinson clearly says that Mesjid el-Aksa = Temple Mount. Our article mosque states clearly in the first sentence that Masjid = Mosque." Except that he uses "Mosk el-Aksa" for the same subject as this (Certified Good) article's title "Al-Aqsa Mosque", which is the English common name and has been for over a hundred years it seems. Per Le Strange: "the Akså Mosque (as we call it)". The whole impetus for this move discussion is whether the title Al-Aqsa Mosque leads to confusion among English readers. Both of these sources attest to Aksa Mosque/Mosk el-Aksa being the English term for the subject. Multiple editors have come in to say the same. Along with New York Times, Oxford Islamic Studies, and the Encyclopedia of Islam, et al. At this point, the argument supporting the move is essentially that the name currently used in English is itself confused and based on a mistranslation. But that is not how article titles are determined. Drsmoo (talk) 13:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is misleading, Robinson uses “mosk el-Aksa” for al-Aqsa Mosque. Le Strange writes that “the native authorities use the technical terms in an extraordinarily inexact manner, often confounding the whole, and its part, under the single denomination of "Masjid." Further, the usage of various writers differs considerably on these points.” Throughout the book he quotes authors who use Aksa mosque specifically for the building. For example: “This stone is to be seen built into the north wall of (the Haram Area that surrounds) the Aksa Mosque." and “it is related how 'Abd al Malik built the Dome of the Rock and the Aksa Mosque...and on the Mosque-roof there were seven thousand seven hundred sheets of lead, each sheet weighing 70 ratls, Syrian measure (420 lbs.)” His own anecdote: “the Latins considered the Aksa Mosque to hold a very secondary place (while the Dome of the Rock was in their eyes the true Templum Domini). Drsmoo (talk) 06:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- As for GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search, I went through the first ten and counted six about the compound, three about the building (one on its dome and two on its beams) and a third about a separate building altogether (the library). That is at least 60% about the compound. GScholar for "masjid al-aqsa" gives 8 out of the first 10 for the compound. To hit our PTOPIC "highly likely" guidance, we would need to be down at about 25% : 75% (compound : building). Onceinawhile (talk) 13:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Srnec: thanks for engaging here. The synechdoche is the other way round - the name of the mosque (the compound) is applied to the building by synechdoche. This is stated and explained by Mujir ad-Din, Robinson, Palmer, Le Strange etc.[1][2][3][4]
- Onceinawhile, I am not convinced of the distinctions you are making. It seems to me that the name of the mosque is applied to the area by synechdoche. A search of masjid al-aqsa in GScholar reveals plenty of results that can only refer to the building. Srnec (talk) 13:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly, you could even argue that there are three layers of meaning here: the prayer hall, the mosque compound at large, and the broader space. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- From the Encyclopedia of Islam source above, "The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next to the Dome of the Rock" Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. As indicated by the above source (and many others), the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" commonly refers to the mosque itself, rather than the entire Temple Mount: The most common use of the words is for the large building located on the south side of the Haram platform and, next in the Dome of the Rock, the most celebrated Islamic building in Jerusalem. This usage of the term is well noted as the dominant one in academic research. Tombah (talk) 06:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Selectively cherrypicking of sources is not the correct way of considering anything. You have at this point been shown plenty of sources on this talk and others by multiple editors showing you an entirely different picture. As well you know, your 'one source (and many others)' is only one side of the story, and you cannot consider one without the other. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:06, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support: Given that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Al-Aqsa Mosque is ambiguous, as the recent news coverage has made abundantly clear, and many readers could be potentially wanting to know about the wider compound, not specifically the Qibli Mosque, I believe some title-level disambiguation is appropriate. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. The mosque itself is what is usually understood, certainly in English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Comment There are definitely issues around mosque, compound, the naming and whatnot, that need sorting out. I am not certain that this piecemeal approach to the problem is the best way of dealing with that. My sense is that the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side" which I would class as a NPOV problem in addition. Selfstudier (talk) 13:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the article is moved, what will happen to the Temple Mount? Do you want to move that article too, to "al-Aqsa" (more common in English)? Khestwol (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Khestwol: no. Personally I am a fan the alternatives described at Temple Mount#Jerusalem's sacred esplanade. Our policy WP:NPOVTITLE does not account for a situation where there are multiple non-neutral common names. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=har+habayit%2Cmasjid+al-aqsa%2Charam+al-sharif%2Csacred+esplanade%2Ctemple+mount%2Cnoble+sanctuary%2Cal-aqsa+mosque%2Cmount+moriah&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=0& Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this Ngram result is incorrect, because Ngram always automatically inserts spaces around the hyphens which makes the results incorrect when the names include hyphens. However, "al-Aqsa" is more common according to Google search, where "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem is getting 4.7 million results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem is getting 3.8 million results. Furthermore on Google News, "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem gets 126,000 results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem get 72,700 results. Khestwol (talk) 13:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is wrong, the n-gram processes hyphens normally, it parses the search to add spaces between the hyphens, as that is the ngram syntax for hyphens (otherwise, the dash is a minus), the books are then searched normally (without the spaces around the hyphens). https://books.google.com/ngrams/info Google results are not a reliable source on Wikipedia, and even then, Temple Mount gets significantly more results than any other alternate name. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the correct ngram [3] It shows Aqsa or Aksa ahead of Temple Mount. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- LOL, no. That includes all uses, including as a personal name, etc. And even then, Temple Mount is ahead. Drsmoo (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, just like there's all sorts of other stuff that gets swept up in a "temple mount" google search - things like a movie, mentions of "temple, mount" with a comma in the middle, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you actually go through the google results, when you get to page 11, you'll see that there are actually only 104 unique results of your search. That's why google results (and ngrams) aren't reliable on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Which was exactly me point here - the sum of it all is nevertheless an indicator that very little can be taken for granted. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you actually go through the google results, when you get to page 11, you'll see that there are actually only 104 unique results of your search. That's why google results (and ngrams) aren't reliable on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, just like there's all sorts of other stuff that gets swept up in a "temple mount" google search - things like a movie, mentions of "temple, mount" with a comma in the middle, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- LOL, no. That includes all uses, including as a personal name, etc. And even then, Temple Mount is ahead. Drsmoo (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Umm, Ngrams isn't a reliable source either. All of these things are purely indicative. It is only source quality and usage that truly matters. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is the correct ngram [3] It shows Aqsa or Aksa ahead of Temple Mount. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is wrong, the n-gram processes hyphens normally, it parses the search to add spaces between the hyphens, as that is the ngram syntax for hyphens (otherwise, the dash is a minus), the books are then searched normally (without the spaces around the hyphens). https://books.google.com/ngrams/info Google results are not a reliable source on Wikipedia, and even then, Temple Mount gets significantly more results than any other alternate name. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English, ok come on now, you know that is not true. You know it is called, commonly, al-Aqsa, al-Aqsa Mosque, al-Aqsa mosque compound, Sacred Esplanade, Holy Esplanade. That has been demonstrated over and over again. nableezy - 13:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not compared to Temple Mount, see ngram above. There are also reliable sources that explicitly state the common English term is Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might have a point if somebody said that the most common English name but they did not. You said it is the only common English name, and you know that to be false and misleading. I dont know why you are taking these maximalist positions when they are the easiest to show to be completely made up. nableezy - 14:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on your definition of "common". "Sacred Esplanade" is less common than academic terms like "Southern Levant" Drsmoo (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually wouldn't be so hasty to write off esplanade: the term actually has some academic pedigree, see Jerusalem+esplanade Iskandar323 (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Esplanade" is not a name for the Temple Mount. You are searching for esplanade as a noun. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- But there is only one esplanade of any notability in Jerusalem, just like there is only one 'temple mount'. Name another. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:23, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Esplanade" is not a name for the Temple Mount. You are searching for esplanade as a noun. Drsmoo (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually wouldn't be so hasty to write off esplanade: the term actually has some academic pedigree, see Jerusalem+esplanade Iskandar323 (talk) 16:47, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on your definition of "common". "Sacred Esplanade" is less common than academic terms like "Southern Levant" Drsmoo (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might have a point if somebody said that the most common English name but they did not. You said it is the only common English name, and you know that to be false and misleading. I dont know why you are taking these maximalist positions when they are the easiest to show to be completely made up. nableezy - 14:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not compared to Temple Mount, see ngram above. There are also reliable sources that explicitly state the common English term is Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 13:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this Ngram result is incorrect, because Ngram always automatically inserts spaces around the hyphens which makes the results incorrect when the names include hyphens. However, "al-Aqsa" is more common according to Google search, where "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem is getting 4.7 million results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem is getting 3.8 million results. Furthermore on Google News, "al-Aqsa" + Jerusalem gets 126,000 results but "Temple Mount" + Jerusalem get 72,700 results. Khestwol (talk) 13:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Temple Mount is the only common name in English. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=har+habayit%2Cmasjid+al-aqsa%2Charam+al-sharif%2Csacred+esplanade%2Ctemple+mount%2Cnoble+sanctuary%2Cal-aqsa+mosque%2Cmount+moriah&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&case_insensitive=on&corpus=26&smoothing=0& Drsmoo (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Khestwol: no. Personally I am a fan the alternatives described at Temple Mount#Jerusalem's sacred esplanade. Our policy WP:NPOVTITLE does not account for a situation where there are multiple non-neutral common names. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational) (don't need mosque twice) in order to make progress on the issues,
the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" commonly refers to the mosque itself
simply is not the case (if even the BBC understands this, you can be sure of it).[5]
Selfstudier (talk) 15:06, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose as in normal English Al aqsa mosque refers to the mosque itself and not to the entire Temple Mount. It is possible to say Al Aqsa Compund to refer to the Temple Mount, but if you say mosque then it is almost always the mosque itself. --Seggallion (talk) 17:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)blocked sock Selfstudier (talk) 23:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)- Oppose clearly per WP:COMMONNAME in English. Also per WP:CONCISE. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- For the record, this is not about the common name, which is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of said common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Here is the thoroughly reliable Jewish Chronicle complaining about the BBC "April 2022 saw another development: a BBC report about rioting on Temple Mount informed readers that "the compound is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) and is also considered, in its entirety, as al-Aqsa Mosque."" which the JC considers to be "Hamas-inspired terminology". The BBC didn't and apparently still doesn't agree.Selfstudier (talk) 22:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, I HAD thought the Jewish Chronicle wasn't too bad a source, but I didn't know it pushed out this kind of crap (the tired Hamas refrain) in its opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- What is even more surprising is that the Jerusalem Post, arguably even more anti-Palestinian in approach, is quite happy to use the term to describe the whole area: "Over 300,000 Muslims attend Ramadan overnight prayers at Al-Aksa Mosque". The Jerusalem Post. 2017-06-22. For reference, the capacity of the building which our Al Aqsa Mosque article relates to is just 5,000. This JPost article is a good example of the frequent ambiguous use of the term by authors who haven’t fully thought about whether they mean the building or the whole plaza. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Interestingly, what it also does is, by saying
"al-Aksa Mosque on the Temple Mount"
, is semantically treat the mosque as the religious site and the mount as the topographical feature, which is of course logical, and I have been thinking is really the correct approach, but the distinction is only rarely actually expressed in this way. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)- The hill is the putative Mount Moriah (a redirect to Temple Mount). Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- But those are one and the same in the sense that Mount Moriah is the designation for where Solomon's temple was supposedly constructed. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- The hill is the putative Mount Moriah (a redirect to Temple Mount). Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: Interestingly, what it also does is, by saying
- What is even more surprising is that the Jerusalem Post, arguably even more anti-Palestinian in approach, is quite happy to use the term to describe the whole area: "Over 300,000 Muslims attend Ramadan overnight prayers at Al-Aksa Mosque". The Jerusalem Post. 2017-06-22. For reference, the capacity of the building which our Al Aqsa Mosque article relates to is just 5,000. This JPost article is a good example of the frequent ambiguous use of the term by authors who haven’t fully thought about whether they mean the building or the whole plaza. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, I HAD thought the Jewish Chronicle wasn't too bad a source, but I didn't know it pushed out this kind of crap (the tired Hamas refrain) in its opinion. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:57, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Number 57 11:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ditto, again, this is not about the common name, which is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of said common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Request for RM to remain open pending more fulsome discussion, since none of five oppose comments have met the requirements of WP:RMCOMMENT. Each of @Tombah, Necrothesp, and Seggallion: have claimed that references in scholarly literature to Al Aqsa Mosque are "dominant" / "usually understood" / "almost always" relating to the main building rather than the wider mosque, but did not provide evidence, and did not comment on the counterclaim that 60% of the first ten GoogleScholar uses relate to the compound. Each of @Khestwol and Number 57: referred to a policy (commonname) which is unrelated to a discussion about disambiguation when the common name is not being changed (e.g. Orange (colour) and Orange (fruit)). Additional time will hopefully allow more editors to engage with the sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think any of your arguments is good enough. Even Selfstudier's claim about BBC above seems untrue. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Really? Which part? What I said or what the BBC said. Do be specific.Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think any of your arguments is good enough. Even Selfstudier's claim about BBC above seems untrue. Khestwol (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Background to the discussion for new editors (see images, right) Our "Al-Aqsa Mosque" article describes the small southern building. The large compound, also known as "Al-Aqsa Mosque", is described at our article Temple Mount. Scholarly literature using the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" usually relates to one of these three main topics:
- Quran / Islam as a whole (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics almost always relates to the whole Temple Mount compound):
- Al Aqsa Mosque as the third holiest site in Islam
- Al Aqsa Mosque as the first qibla in Islam
- Palestinian-Israeli politics (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics almost always relates to the whole Temple Mount compound):
- Al Aqsa Mosque as an identity symbol for Palestinians, giving its name to the Al Aqsa Intifada, and the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
- Al Aqsa Mosque in the news after clashes between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians: the location of the recent clashes shown here
- Architecture or more practical / focused description (the term Al Aqsa Mosque in literature on these topics is weighted towards the small building, with the compound being given one of its alternate names, often pointing out that the name relates to the compound as well)
- Al Aqsa Mosque (Temple Mount compound) as a large mosque holding over 300,000 people (note: the small building can hold only 5,000)
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) as an important monument of early Islamic architecture
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) housing the Imam of the Al Aqsa Mosque
- Al Aqsa Mosque (small building) being where the Islamic prayers are led from
Onceinawhile (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- However, the WP:hatnote at the top of this article serves our disambiguation function very efficiently. It can easily redirect our readers, for example if they are an Arabic-speaking Muslim, toward the Temple Mount if that is what they wanted to read about. Khestwol (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Per WP:COMMONNAME. Per Srnec and Khestwol, the hatnotes are sufficient. Vpab15 (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- The common name is not in dispute. This is about disambiguation, given the dual meaning of the common name. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support, because it is widely known that "Al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam" (because Mohammed supposedly rose to the heavens from there) and, as has been pointed out by many before me, it obviously doesn't refer to the black-domed structure that was built decades after Mohammed's death, but to the entire area, known to Muslims in its entirety as the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Dan Palraz (talk) 17:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - I dont actually understand the opposition here. Its almost as if one wishes that al-Aqsa Mosque did not refer to the entire compound, but per the sources offered above it clearly does. If we are to have an article on the mosque specifically, and we should, the title should be about the mosque specifically and not the entire compound. nableezy - 18:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- The opposition is to using a long title where a short one will do. The article on the compound is Temple Mount. It has an Arabic name, Haram al-Sharif. I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque and not a reflection of either (a) the wider meaning of Arabic masjid or (b) early Islamic history, before the construction of a dedicated building. I base this on the fact that al-Aqsa mosque is habitually distinguished from the Dome of the Rock in English. Also, constructions like "al-Aqsa mosque compound" suggest that the "al-Aqsa mosque" proper is a part of the compound (as here). In other words, our current setup with hatnotes is fine. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: you write
I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque
. Can you explain what you mean? I think there is an important nuance you are trying to communicate by writing "modern English usage" that I don't understand. Perhaps you could help me understand in the context of the following established facts (which I don't believe you are disputing): (1) the name Masjid Al Aqsa derives from the Quran and at that point referred to the whole Temple Mount; (2) the name Masjid Al Aqsa was the primary Arabic name for the Temple Mount compound for more than 1,000 years until the Ottoman times when the term Haram Al Sharif began to gain currency; (3) the English term "Mosque" is a direct transliteration of Masjid. - And just to make sure we are not talking past each other, I believe "route 2" is what you are advocating, whereas "route 1" was stated by English-speaking scholars such as Guy Le Strange and Edward Henry Palmer in the 19th century:
- Route 1: Quran[compound]->Masjid Al-Aqsa[compound]->Al Aqsa Mosque[compound]
- Route 2: Quran[compound]->Masjid Al-Aqsa[compound]->Jamia Al-Aqsa[building]->Al Aqsa Mosque[building]->Al Aqsa Mosque[compound]
- Onceinawhile (talk) 08:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: you write
- The opposition is to using a long title where a short one will do. The article on the compound is Temple Mount. It has an Arabic name, Haram al-Sharif. I still maintain that modern English usage of "al-Aqsa Mosque" to refer to the entire area is synechdoche from the Friday mosque and not a reflection of either (a) the wider meaning of Arabic masjid or (b) early Islamic history, before the construction of a dedicated building. I base this on the fact that al-Aqsa mosque is habitually distinguished from the Dome of the Rock in English. Also, constructions like "al-Aqsa mosque compound" suggest that the "al-Aqsa mosque" proper is a part of the compound (as here). In other words, our current setup with hatnotes is fine. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: What I mean is that the English word 'mosque' normally denotes a building. Referring to a wider area as a mosque is not natural in English among native speakers of English. This is why the broader meaning has to be explained and the term "al-Aqsa Mosque" qualified by the addition of "compound" for clarity. It isn't a question of how we got here, but where we are. That question is not easily answered. Srnec (talk) 02:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: Most major mosques in the Middle East actually typically include a large courtyard, all of which is considered part of the mosque, and all of which becomes a space for prayer during times of high traffic, such as during Eid. The Umayyad Mosque for instance, see here. Adding 'compound' is simply descriptive disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Srnec: Iskandar323 is right. See "Ch. 14: The Mosque". Studies in Arab Architecture, Edinburgh University Press, 2022, p. 434: "To the beginning of the eleventh century ce in the Near East, mosque typology is dominated by the plan of the hypostyle (many-columned) courtyard, which in this context is sometimes also referred to as the ‘Arab’ plan." In other words, almost all the major early mosques in the Middle East have exactly this courtyard setup, with a sahn surrounded by riwaq (just like the Temple Mount). See other examples such as Great Mosque of Kairouan or Mosque of Ibn Tulun.
- Then see how this is explained at ArchNet. They call the building "Jami' al-Aqsa" for the purposes of disambiguation (which I think could be a very good solution here; as shown below, policy allows us to move away from commonname if it gives a better disambiguation). They describe Jami' al-Aqsa as follows:
The term the "farthest mosque" is considered in Islamic tradition as the general name for the precinct of Haram al-Sharif ("The Noble Sacred Enclosure") in Jerusalem, as well as the specific name for the congregational mosque located at its southern edge. The contemporary congregational mosque of al-Aqsa is a result of different stages of construction and renovations... The mosque consists today of a seven bay hypostyle hall with several additional small halls to the west and east of the southern section of the building. Unlike most hypostyle-style mosques the building does not have a clearly delineated courtyard unless one considers the whole Haram as its court.
- I am not claiming we should give an answer one way or the other. But this discussion, and ArchNet's description, shows again that this whole thing is ambiguous.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 07:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Srnec, a couple of further thoughts here:
- Our encyclopedia is not only for “native” English speakers, it is for all English speakers
- This discussion is not trying to assess whether or not the wider space should be called a mosque, with or without clarifying adjectives
- This discussion must assess only whether or not it is "highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined" that our English-speaking readers are looking for the southern prayer building when they type the words “Al Aqsa Mosque”. I believe it is likely that a significant proportion of our readers are in fact looking to understand the Quranic Al Aqsa (which is the compound) or the modern political Al Aqsa (which is the compound).
- Please could you provide your thoughts on this? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Srnec, a couple of further thoughts here:
- @Srnec: Most major mosques in the Middle East actually typically include a large courtyard, all of which is considered part of the mosque, and all of which becomes a space for prayer during times of high traffic, such as during Eid. The Umayyad Mosque for instance, see here. Adding 'compound' is simply descriptive disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Onceinawhile: What I mean is that the English word 'mosque' normally denotes a building. Referring to a wider area as a mosque is not natural in English among native speakers of English. This is why the broader meaning has to be explained and the term "al-Aqsa Mosque" qualified by the addition of "compound" for clarity. It isn't a question of how we got here, but where we are. That question is not easily answered. Srnec (talk) 02:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment (1) At which point? The actual location of the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque has been debated among scholars since the earliest days of Islam. Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. His biographer Al-Waqidi wrote a century later that Muhammad frequented an Al-Aqsa Mosque in a village near Mecca, while other scholars believe that the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque is a spiritual destination, rather than a geographical location. The connection with the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is probably of a later Umayyad origin. (2) There was no primary name for the Temple Mount before the Ottoman period. In fact, two other names were very popular: Bayt al-Maqdis, and Al-Jabal. And let me add a (4), according to some scholars, the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" as to refer to the entire mount has regained currency starting in the 1990s, when it assumed a symbolic national significance for Palestinians. Tombah (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- These WP:FRINGE claims that Al Aqsa Mosque is not in Jerusalem have no place in this discussion. In a similar vein, per my comment at Talk:Al-Juʽranah your edits there need proper contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I never said there is no Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. But claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic. Islamic scholars debated the meaning behind Quranic Al-Aqsa since the earliest days of Islam. Tombah (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re your statement
"...claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic"
, please read Wikipedia:Fringe theories - your statement "departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views". Plus it has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread, so I will not respond further. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re your statement
- I never said there is no Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. But claiming that the Quran originally referred to Jerusalem is indeed problematic. Islamic scholars debated the meaning behind Quranic Al-Aqsa since the earliest days of Islam. Tombah (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- These WP:FRINGE claims that Al Aqsa Mosque is not in Jerusalem have no place in this discussion. In a similar vein, per my comment at Talk:Al-Juʽranah your edits there need proper contextualization. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- In any case, as I said many times before - the usage of "Al-Aqsa Mosque" for the entire Temple Mount - regardless of how common it is in Arabic-speaking media and sources - is not common in English. When the term Al-Aqsa is used in English for the entire site, its usually part of "Al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" or simply "Al-Aqsa". Most sources do not use the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" for the entire mount, as it most usually refers to the silver-domed mosque only. Tombah (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- There really should be a moratorium on the word 'most' when not accompanied by any actual sources or usage analysis. Provide some sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:01, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment (1) At which point? The actual location of the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque has been debated among scholars since the earliest days of Islam. Muhammad never visited Jerusalem. His biographer Al-Waqidi wrote a century later that Muhammad frequented an Al-Aqsa Mosque in a village near Mecca, while other scholars believe that the Quranic Al-Aqsa Mosque is a spiritual destination, rather than a geographical location. The connection with the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is probably of a later Umayyad origin. (2) There was no primary name for the Temple Mount before the Ottoman period. In fact, two other names were very popular: Bayt al-Maqdis, and Al-Jabal. And let me add a (4), according to some scholars, the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" as to refer to the entire mount has regained currency starting in the 1990s, when it assumed a symbolic national significance for Palestinians. Tombah (talk) 08:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Relister comment So far, the supporters managed to demonstrate that ambiguity does exist for the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" with evidence. Meanwhile, the opponents keep citing "COMMONNAME" (which I don't find relevant as the supporters are not trying to move to anything other than "Al-Aqsa Mosque" + disambiguator) and stating that the mosque itself is the primary topic of the term (citing one published statement, but without verifying the primary topic status with an actual usage examination). Some further data analysis may be helpful. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:05, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Common usage is for the name to refer to the mosque specifically, though sometimes "compound" is appended to refer to a wider area. Haram al-Sharif is the common name for the wider area in Arabic.
- “The Aqsa Mosque is one of the holiest structures in the Islamic faith. The mosque sits inside a 35-acre site known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif, or the Noble Sanctuary, and by Jews as the Temple Mount.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/10/world/middleeast/aqsa-mosque-jerusalem.html
- "Aqṣā, al - The third holiest mosque in Islam, al-Aqṣā is part of the sacred site in Jerusalem (along with the Dome of the Rock 492 feet, or 150 meters, to its north) referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf (The Noble Sanctuary) and in Hebrew as Har ha-Bayit (The Temple Mount)." http://oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e1011
- "Haram al-Sharif - The Noble Enclosure. Muslim sacred precinct on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem and the site of two Islamic holy places, the al-Aqsa mosque and the Qubbat al-Sakhra (Dome of the Rock)." http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t125/e809
- “The rock es-Sukrah at Jerusalem is one of the rocks of Paradise. The mosk el-Aksa is perhaps even more respected. Indeed the two are regarded as forming together one great temple; which, with their precincts, is now commonly called el-Haram esh-Sherif ; but which in earlier Arabian writers bears the general name of Mesjid el-Aksa, ” - Biblical researches in Palestine, Mount Sinai and Arabia Petraea. A journal of travels in the year 1838 Robinson, Edward, 1794-1863
- References already provided on this talk page have describes "al-Aqsa Compound" as a colloquial phrase: "The site is known in Arabic as Haram al-Sharif – the Noble Sanctuary – and colloquially as the Haram or the al-Aqsa compound;" https://books.google.com/books?id=YrztCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA243
- References in the lead paragraph of the article state that usage of Haram al-Sharif "superseded" usage of a wider context for al-Aqsa during Ottoman rule ""Al-Masjid al-Aqsa" was the standard designation for the whole sanctuary until the Ottoman period, when it was superseded by "al-Haram al-Sharif”;" https://web.archive.org/web/20170111130058/https://books.google.com/books?id=FG6ZlkRjD2IC&pg=PA71
- Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān Aqṣā Mosque - “An early mosque located in Jerusalem on what is called in Islam “The Noble Sanctuary (al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf)”[[4]]
- Encyclopaedia of Islam “Al-Aqṣā mosque (al-masjid al-Aqṣā) refers specifically to the large mosque on the southwestern corner of al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf in Jerusalem, but the name is also used for the entire religious compound, including the Dome of the Rock.” [[5]]
- Consensus will determine how to navigate between “refers specifically” and “is also used”.
- Drsmoo (talk) 04:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Per my comment below at 07:15, 19 June 2022, the quoted excerpts from the last two bullets above (Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān and Encyclopaedia of Islam, both added to this list at 02:21, 19 June 2022) provide a partial picture. A full reading of these encyclopedia articles, just like the Britannica article on Al Aqsa Mosque, support disambiguation. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. The ambiguity is very small to nonexistent, present in a small minority of biased claims. This is Al Jazeera's explanation: "Al-Aqsa is the name of the silver-domed mosque inside a 35-acre compound referred to as al-Haram al-Sharif, or the Noble Sanctuary, by Muslims, and as the Temple Mount by Jews.". Most sources that use mosque refer to the silver domed mosque, the wider area is referred to by other names. --StellarNerd (talk) 04:04, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- An ambiguity either exists or it doesn't, and if it does, it needs disambiguation. Where do 'a small minority of biased claims' and 'most sources' come from? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- @StellarNerd: This Al Jazeera video tour of Al Aqsa Mosque with 13 million views (see index page here) calls the southern building the Qibli Mosque and says it is also known as the Al Aqsa Mosque, "although that title more accurately describes the entire compound". They then provide a little diagram to make it clear. Start from 4:40 to see it. Using the term "Qibli" for the southern building (the topic of this article) and "Al Aqsa" for the compound is Al Jazeera's standard way of disambiguating here (see e.g. [6]). Onceinawhile (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- An ambiguity either exists or it doesn't, and if it does, it needs disambiguation. Where do 'a small minority of biased claims' and 'most sources' come from? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- A plea for a focus on our policies: Per the above "Relister comment" two days ago, the outcome of this discussion should be based upon our WP:DAB policy, specifically WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That is the only thing we should be discussing. Yet not a single one of the oppose voters has directly addressed this policy, or attempted to prove that the current topic at this title
"is highly likely — much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined — to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
Support voters have provided evidence for ambiguity, bringing all five of the scholarly references below as well as providing Gscholar/Gbooks usage examinations, whereas the oppose votes have brought individual use examples but no attempts to evidence relative frequency and the "highly likely" test. That is presumably because counting the frequency of different use examples of homographs can only be done manually.
- Another interesting point from the same policy is WP:NCDAB, which says:
When there is another term (such as Apartment instead of Flat) or more complete name (such as English language instead of English) that is unambiguous, commonly used in English (even without being the most common term), and equally clear, that term is typically the best to use.
So for those averse to a long title, this "even without being the most common term" would allow us to follow the outcome of a similar discussion at Commons:Special:Permalink/510293901#Al-Aqsa Mosque ambiguity from two years ago. - Onceinawhile (talk) 16:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is incorrect, and the above is simply WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, multiple reliable sources, including NYTimes and the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, show the primary topic for this name is the mosque specifically, that al-Aqsa compound is a colloquial phrase, and that Haram al-Sharif superseded usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque for the entire space in Ottoman times. Which is confirmed by multiple references included below as well, which also attest to the fact that the space is "usually supposed"/"many people believe" to be the mosque building alone. It's also worth noting that the Commons:Village Pump response correctly observes that the common English term for the whole area is "Temple Mount". Is it your intention to "follow the outcome" of that discussion, which suggested "Temple Mount and Al-Qibli Chapel"? Because that is not what was proposed in the move discussion.Drsmoo (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- No. Cherrypicked use example sources do not have any bearing on the "highly likely" primary topic requirement in our policy. As I wrote above, I ran a GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search:
I went through the first ten and counted six about the compound, three about the building (one on its dome and two on its beams) and a third about a separate building altogether (the library). That is at least 60% about the compound.
. This type of analysis is the way to assess the "highly likely" test required under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC) - Ah, so the New York Times and Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, and Encyclopaedia of Islam, are "cherry-picked", as opposed to the sources you prefer, of course (even though many of the sources you added also attest to the fact that commonly the phrase is assigned the mosque building specifically). Drsmoo (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is irrelevant. That there are source saying two different things means that there is ambiguity in the meaning. Hence it requires disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- So then create a link at the top of the article that says "For Haram al-Sharif or the al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" and directs to Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 18:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That would only be the correct approach if the Al-Aqsa building was the clear primary topic for Al-Aqsa Mosque, which no one has shown it is. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- So then create a link at the top of the article that says "For Haram al-Sharif or the al-Aqsa Mosque Compound" and directs to Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 18:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is irrelevant. That there are source saying two different things means that there is ambiguity in the meaning. Hence it requires disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- No. Cherrypicked use example sources do not have any bearing on the "highly likely" primary topic requirement in our policy. As I wrote above, I ran a GScholar "al aqsa mosque" search:
- That is incorrect, and the above is simply WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, multiple reliable sources, including NYTimes and the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, show the primary topic for this name is the mosque specifically, that al-Aqsa compound is a colloquial phrase, and that Haram al-Sharif superseded usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque for the entire space in Ottoman times. Which is confirmed by multiple references included below as well, which also attest to the fact that the space is "usually supposed"/"many people believe" to be the mosque building alone. It's also worth noting that the Commons:Village Pump response correctly observes that the common English term for the whole area is "Temple Mount". Is it your intention to "follow the outcome" of that discussion, which suggested "Temple Mount and Al-Qibli Chapel"? Because that is not what was proposed in the move discussion.Drsmoo (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is it not likely that a significant number of readers searching for "Al Aqsa Mosque" could be Muslim? We have multiple sources stating that "Al Aqsa Mosque" is the Muslim name for the compound (not the prayer hall building which is the subject of this article). The table below shows that there are approximately 300 million English-speaking Muslims in the world. In other words, Muslims represent one-quarter of all English speakers in the world. The topic of the mosque compound is very important to all Muslims... Onceinawhile (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Table of the world's c.300 million English-speaking Muslims | |||
---|---|---|---|
Country | Total English speakers (from List of countries by English-speaking population) | Muslim population (from Islam by country) | English speaking Muslims |
% | |||
United States | 96% | 3,450,000 | 3,294,750 |
Nigeria | 86% | 99000000 | 85,555,800 |
India | 11% | 200,000,000 | 21,240,000 |
Philippines | 58% | 8725000 | 5,077,950 |
United Kingdom | 98% | 4,130,000 | 4,059,790 |
Germany | 56% | 5450000 | 3,052,000 |
Uganda | 90% | 5,435,234 | 4,886,275 |
Canada | 83% | 1,148,213 | 953,706 |
Egypt | 35% | 87500000 | 30,625,000 |
France | 39% | 5,720,000 | 2,230,800 |
Australia | 93% | 666,000 | 618,048 |
Bangladesh | 12% | 153,700,000 | 18,444,000 |
Pakistan | 9% | 212,300,000 | 19,319,300 |
Japan | 15% | 185,000 | 27,750 |
Ghana | 67% | 6,442,205 | 4,295,018 |
Russia | 12% | 18000000 | 2,133,000 |
Thailand | 27% | 3,640,000 | 988,624 |
Italy | 34% | 2,987,840 | 1,015,866 |
South Africa | 31% | 1,050,000 | 325,500 |
Mexico | 13% | 5,500 | 710 |
Malaysia | 63% | 20,063,500 | 12,553,732 |
Netherlands | 91% | 887,000 | 806,283 |
Poland | 37% | 6,796 | 2,515 |
Sri Lanka | 62% | 2,105,000 | 1,305,100 |
Turkey | 17% | 74,423,725 | 12,652,033 |
Zimbabwe | 82% | 100,000 | 82,070 |
Iraq | 35% | 38,465,864 | 13,463,052 |
Brazil | 5% | 767583.5 | 38,379 |
Spain | 22% | 1,180,000 | 259,600 |
China | 1% | 28127500 | 253,148 |
Sweden | 89% | 800,000 | 712,000 |
Kenya | 19% | 5,500,000 | 1,035,650 |
Cameroon | 38% | 7,692,289 | 2,923,070 |
Ukraine | 18% | 695000 | 125,100 |
Belgium | 60% | 879,377 | 527,626 |
Israel | 85% | 1,516,482 | 1,288,555 |
Austria | 73% | 720,000 | 525,600 |
Romania | 31% | 136500 | 42,315 |
Greece | 51% | 414318 | 211,302 |
Sierra Leone | 84% | 6,067,706 | 5,068,355 |
Denmark | 86% | 313,713 | 269,793 |
Switzerland | 61% | 100,000 | 61,280 |
Morocco | 14% | 37,930,989 | 5,310,338 |
Norway | 90% | 175,507 | 157,956 |
Republic of Ireland | 98% | 1,566,786 | 1,541,247 |
Singapore | 83% | 915,118 | 760,463 |
New Zealand | 98% | 41,000 | 40,106 |
Madagascar | 18% | 2,568,361 | 462,305 |
Tanzania | 10% | 19,426,814 | 1,921,312 |
Finland | 75% | 102,000 | 76,500 |
Cambodia | 22% | 311,044 | 69,052 |
Papua New Guinea | 50% | 2,000 | 995 |
Hong Kong | 46% | 295,746 | 136,250 |
Portugal | 27% | 65,000 | 17,550 |
Liberia | 83% | 961,953 | 795,247 |
Jordan | 45% | 10,165,577 | 4,574,510 |
Czechia | 27% | 15000 | 4,050 |
Argentina | 7% | 400,000 | 26,080 |
Jamaica | 98% | 5,624 | 5,491 |
Croatia | 60% | 64,057 | 38,434 |
Algeria | 7% | 41,240,913 | 2,886,864 |
Myanmar | 4% | 5,837,839 | 259,784 |
Yemen | 9% | 27,784,498 | 2,500,605 |
Colombia | 4% | 96,337 | 4,065 |
Hungary | 20% | 50000 | 10,000 |
Puerto Rico | 49% | 1,000 | 486 |
Zambia | 16% | 168,877 | 27,054 |
Bulgaria | 25% | 861,015 | 215,254 |
Kazakhstan | 15% | 13,158,672 | 2,026,435 |
Lebanon | 40% | 3,567,211 | 1,426,884 |
Chile | 10% | 4,000 | 381 |
Rwanda | 15% | 576,054 | 86,408 |
Slovakia | 26% | 10,866 | 2,825 |
Slovenia | 59% | 73,568 | 43,405 |
Trinidad and Tobago | 88% | 78,000 | 68,437 |
Lithuania | 38% | 3,000 | 1,140 |
Latvia | 46% | 2,000 | 920 |
Nepal | 3% | 1,292,909 | 38,787 |
Subtotal | 287,888,067 | ||
Total English speakers | 1,179,874,130 | ||
Percent of subtotal English-speaking Muslims / all English speakers | 24.4% |
- "We have multiple sources stating that "Al Aqsa Mosque" is the Muslim name for the compound" - That is not correct, at least not in the sources provided, none of which state that the term is "the Muslim name for the compound", though some state that the term applying to a wider area is a colloquialism/superseded by Haram al-Sharif. However, there are many sources which do in fact state that Muslims refer to the site as Haram al-Sharif, and that the site is commonly referred to in English as the Temple Mount. I'm not sure why the Village Pump discussion was linked to, but the move request doesn't conform to it? Just have a redirect to Temple Mount, which is the common english term. This article is also certified good, was that designation wrong? Or did something change since then? Drsmoo (talk) 19:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some examples below:
- Cohen, Hillel (2017). "The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa in Zionist and Palestinian National Consciousness: A Comparative View". Israel Studies Review. Berghahn Books. 32 (1): 1, 8–9, 17. ISSN 21590389 21590370, 21590389. JSTOR 45238302.
The holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or al-Aqsa is central to both the Jewish and Palestinian Arab national movements…
{{cite journal}}
: Check|issn=
value (help) - "Jerusalem: Over 150 hurt in clashes at al-Aqsa Mosque compound". BBC News. 2022-04-15.
The compound is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif (Noble Sanctuary) and is also considered, in its entirety, as al-Aqsa Mosque.
- Reiter, Y.; Dimant, D. (2020). Islam, Jews and the Temple Mount: The Rock of Our/Their Existence. Routledge Studies in Middle Eastern Politics. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-000-06679-1.
Needless to say, Al-Aqsa Mosque is the Muslim name for the entire compound that is known to others as the Temple Mount.
- Cohen, Hillel (2017). "The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa in Zionist and Palestinian National Consciousness: A Comparative View". Israel Studies Review. Berghahn Books. 32 (1): 1, 8–9, 17. ISSN 21590389 21590370, 21590389. JSTOR 45238302.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 19:58, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- All three of those sources call the space Haram al-Sharif, the third is referring directly to the quote immediately above it by Raed Salah, and states that “all others” call it the Temple Mount (and has Temple Mount in the title). Are these cherry picked sources as well? Drsmoo (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. And when you look at the news today, it is "Al Aqsa", "Al Aqsa", "Al Aqsa". Either way, "Al Aqsa Mosque" is understood by Muslims to relate to the whole compound, because anyone familiar with the Quran knows that it couldn't possibly relate to the southern building which was built much later.
- I will admit that my interest in this topic was sparked a number of years ago on a visit to the compound. Being a regular Wikipedia editor in this area I thought I knew what I was talking about and when I got into a conversation - in English - with someone there I asked him to tell me about the Al Aqsa Mosque, pointing to the southern building. You should have seen the reaction. He thought I was completely insane, lectured me for ten minutes, and then on my way out of the compound later repeated the same thing again. As I said, all of this was in English. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is a lovely personal anecdote, perhaps he should tell The New York Times, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, Encyclopedia of Islam, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque". There are multiple reliably sourced quotes above stating clearly in English that Muslims call the compound Al Aqsa Mosque. They match with anecdotal evidence. And as to "what are our readers searching for", which is the ultimate question here, see below some "reader comments" (i.e. comments on the talk page from non-regular editors) from the last few years (there are many more in the archives if helpful):
- 28 May 2021 160.39.58.140: "Within the definition: After the vandalism in El aqtza in 1969, Muslims in Israel refers El eqtza as the whole mountain."
- 22 August 2020 Ahmad Massalha: "I second that the naming is wrong and misinformed. The Aqsa mosque is all of the area which includes the Dome of the Rock, the Qibli Chapel, and other chapels and rooms. This misinformation must be corrected applying Wiki rules and guides."
- 23 January 2020 BosnianWikiS: "Al-Aqsa is not silver but golden-domed mosque."
- 22 August 2018 Mohammed77779: "We should know that Muslims believe that Al-Aqsa consists of The Dome of the rock and Al-Qibli Chapel, so they are two parts of the same thing, every thing inside the siege is considered as a part of Al-Aqsa; which is around 144,000 square meters. what I want to say is that If anyone try to write about this topic, s/he should keep in mind this difference between the two things; because I have observed that pictures of Al-Qibli Chapel are used to refer to the whole place and Al-Qibli Chapel is used as a redirect to Al-Aqsa, which made the topic to be confused."
- Onceinawhile (talk) 20:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque"." ...yes, they do. Users can just scroll up and read them. "known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif"/"referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf", among all the other sources. And scholarly descriptions saying the whole area is referred to in Arabic/by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif are ubiquitous. I'm not sure why you're posting talk-page comments, but ok. Drsmoo (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Nonsense argument from silence. The same source (you actually provided only one which specifically comments on Muslim terminology) says it is known to Jews as the Temple Mount; that says nothing about whether Jews also know it as “Har haBayīt (Mount of the House [of God])”, which you yourself claimed just two weeks ago. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque"." ...yes, they do. Users can just scroll up and read them. "known by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif"/"referred to in Arabic as al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf", among all the other sources. And scholarly descriptions saying the whole area is referred to in Arabic/by Muslims as Haram al-Sharif are ubiquitous. I'm not sure why you're posting talk-page comments, but ok. Drsmoo (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Those sources make no reference to this specific sub-discussion, which is how Muslims use the term "Al Aqsa Mosque". There are multiple reliably sourced quotes above stating clearly in English that Muslims call the compound Al Aqsa Mosque. They match with anecdotal evidence. And as to "what are our readers searching for", which is the ultimate question here, see below some "reader comments" (i.e. comments on the talk page from non-regular editors) from the last few years (there are many more in the archives if helpful):
- That is a lovely personal anecdote, perhaps he should tell The New York Times, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, Encyclopedia of Islam, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- All three of those sources call the space Haram al-Sharif, the third is referring directly to the quote immediately above it by Raed Salah, and states that “all others” call it the Temple Mount (and has Temple Mount in the title). Are these cherry picked sources as well? Drsmoo (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Some examples below:
- And the response was that the relevant detail was not the Hebrew name, but what names were commonly used in English.Drsmoo (talk) 23:11, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- The reader comments are there because policy requires us to assess what are our readers searching for. The fact that we have received so many consistent reader complaints must be taken into account in that assessment. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Might have been this fellow bending your ear, Once :)
- Dr Yousef: [00:25:55] Al Aqsa mosque, which sometimes is named or called al Haram al Sharif, the Nobel Sanctuary, or the Jerusalem holiest mosque, al Haram al Qudsia Sharif. All of them it means the whole compound, which is located in the south Eastern part of the old city of Jerusalem
- Selfstudier (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Throw this source in as well, I can't see it anywhere [6] Selfstudier (talk) 18:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: You have been shown plenty of sources that clearly demonstrate 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' has been used on many occasions to refer to the entire site (alongside the name Haram al-Sharif), which is all that anybody needs to show here to justify a move towards disambiguating the title, which is the entire point of this discussion. What exactly are you trying to demonstrate? Iskandar323 (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think the best summary can be found in two scholarly encyclopedias. Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān
- Aqṣā Mosque - “An early mosque located in Jerusalem on what is called in Islam “The Noble Sanctuary (al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf” [[7]]
- and Encyclopaedia of Islam “Al-Aqṣā mosque (al-masjid al-Aqṣā) refers specifically to the large mosque on the southwestern corner of al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf in Jerusalem, but the name is also used for the entire religious compound, including the Dome of the Rock.” [[8]] Consensus will determine how to navigate between “refers specifically” and “is also used”. As for me, I’ve already given my opinion and don’t feel the need to re-state it. Drsmoo (talk) 02:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- The EQ article was published by an Islamic Art student - Nola Jeanette Johnson - in 2001, the same year she published her PhD.[9] She doesn't seem to have published any other articles in her entire scholarly career. As described above, when the term is used in the context of Islamic Art or Islamic Architecture, it means the building, so this person would have been expected to use the term in this way. Having said which, her entire first paragraph is about Quranic usage, ending with the words "In the earliest associations of al-masjid al-aqsā with Jerusalem, it is likely that the whole of the Haram was thought to be a place of prayer" - a complicated way of saying that the Quranic usage refers to the compound. The EI article, written by Prof Uri Kupferschmidt, explains the different uses of the term Al-Aqsa [Mosque]: "1. Al-Aqṣā in the Qurʾān, ḥadīth, sīra, and tafsīr", "2. Al-Aqṣā from the twentieth century onwards" and "3. Al-Aqṣā in collective memory and political discourse". This is all consistent with what we know from above:
- If your primary interest is Islamic Art or Architecture, when using the term you will mean the building
- If your primary interest is Quranic usage, when using the term you will mean the compound
- If your primary interest is modern political usage, when using the term you will mean the compound
- So, returning to the policy, PRIMARYTOPIC asks us to judge what which topic "highly likely" - more likely than all the others combined - to be in a reader's mind. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:15, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Just for added emphasis on all the above, here is The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, and Military History [4 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. 2008. p. 70. ISBN 978-1-85109-842-2.
Al-Aqsa Mosque The al-Aqsa Mosque (literally, "farthest mosque") is both a building and a complex of religious buildings in Jerusalem. It is known to Muslims as al-Haram al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary) and to Jews and Christians as the Har ha-Bayit or Temple Mount. The whole area of the Noble Sanctuary is considered by Muslims to be the al-Aqsa Mosque, and the entire precinct is inviolable according to Islamic law. It is considered specifically part of the waqf (endowment) land that had included the Western Wall (Wailing Wall), property of an Algerian family, and more generally a waqf of all of Islam. When viewed as a complex of buildings, the al-Aqsa Mosque is dominated and bounded by two major structures: the al-Aqsa Mosque building on the east and the Dome of the Rock (or the Mosque of Omar) on the west. The Dome of the Rock is the oldest holy building in Islam.
- Just for added emphasis on all the above, here is The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, and Military History [4 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. 2008. p. 70. ISBN 978-1-85109-842-2.
- The EQ article was published by an Islamic Art student - Nola Jeanette Johnson - in 2001, the same year she published her PhD.[9] She doesn't seem to have published any other articles in her entire scholarly career. As described above, when the term is used in the context of Islamic Art or Islamic Architecture, it means the building, so this person would have been expected to use the term in this way. Having said which, her entire first paragraph is about Quranic usage, ending with the words "In the earliest associations of al-masjid al-aqsā with Jerusalem, it is likely that the whole of the Haram was thought to be a place of prayer" - a complicated way of saying that the Quranic usage refers to the compound. The EI article, written by Prof Uri Kupferschmidt, explains the different uses of the term Al-Aqsa [Mosque]: "1. Al-Aqṣā in the Qurʾān, ḥadīth, sīra, and tafsīr", "2. Al-Aqṣā from the twentieth century onwards" and "3. Al-Aqṣā in collective memory and political discourse". This is all consistent with what we know from above:
- Comment. This is a case of pars pro toto, where the whole compound is sometimes referred to as just Al-Aqsa Mosque, which strictly speaking refers to just the building in the southern end. The most famous example of this is Holland, which is commonly used to refer to the whole country of the Netherlands, even though it is just one part of it. In this case, we have various unambiguous terms to refer to the whole compound. In my opinion, that makes the case for disambiguation weaker than in the case of Holland, which is also not disambiguated. Vpab15 (talk) 10:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Apples and oranges, the Netherlands article says "informally Holland", are you suggesting we write, informally Al-Aqsa mosque at the Temple Mount article? Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- At Netherlands#Holland, it says even the Dutch government was using Holland to refer to the whole country, up until 2019. I wouldn't consider that informal use. Vpab15 (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am merely pointing out what the Netherlands article says, it says "The Netherlands...informally Holland" right there in the opening sentence of the lead.Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- At Netherlands#Holland, it says even the Dutch government was using Holland to refer to the whole country, up until 2019. I wouldn't consider that informal use. Vpab15 (talk) 11:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, strictly speaking Al Aqsa Mosque is a fluid term, while everything it can refer to has other names: the compound as Haram al-Sharif; the prayer hall as Qibli Mosque. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Vpab15: it's the other way round – all of the sources that describe the genesis of the dual-usage (see collapsed reference box below) explain that it is a case of Totum pro parte. Like the way in the 80s and 90s the Twin Towers were always referred to as the World Trade Center, despite that term correctly referring to a wider complex of seven buildings and the spaces in between. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Vpab15: one major difference is that the usage of "Holland" for Netherlands is unofficial. By contrast, the official name for the Temple Mount in Islamic literature is "Al-Aqsa mosque" (see for example Arabic wikipedia), and the official name for the current article is "Qibli mosque". In fact, the use of the term "Masjid Al-Aqsa" predates the construction of the building.VR talk 21:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Apples and oranges, the Netherlands article says "informally Holland", are you suggesting we write, informally Al-Aqsa mosque at the Temple Mount article? Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. I did a google of "Al-Aqsa Mosque" -Wikipedia and it was half-way down the second page before any of the ghits even mentioned that the name could refer to the wider area, the others all just used the name in the narrower sense. There is no ambiguity in terms of WP:AT. Andrewa (talk) 21:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Andrewa: I just did the same search and got the opposite results. My first two hits are: Britannica and Al Jazeera. The Britannica article uses the term first for the compound, then for the building and finally for the compound again. The Al Jazeera article uses the term only for the compound, and never for the building. If you are getting different links, please could you post them here - perhaps just the first 5 or 10? Onceinawhile (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Google has an interesting algorithm! I confess I haven't repeated the search.
- But I see no need to do it... Just look at the Britannica source you cite which reads The term Al-Aqṣā Mosque is often extended to denote the entirety of the plaza on which the mosque and the Dome of the Rock stand, although the plaza is known formally as Al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf (“the Noble Sanctuary”). (My emphasis.) It doesn't use the phrase in the wider sense, although it does note that others do. Then look at the Al Jazeera site... it refers to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound (my emphasis) rather than using the phrase Al-Aqsa Mosque to refer to the larger area. So again, there seems no ambiguity... Al-Aqsa Mosque refers to the mosque, not the whole plaza.
- Reading those two articles again, I think I am perhaps beginning to understand the POV here. It is obviously offensive for Jewish prayers to be offered inside a mosque. So extending the title Al-Aqsa Mosque to cover the whole of the Temple Mount has an obvious political consequence. And we should avoid taking sides. Andrewa (talk) 05:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Andrewa: I just did the same search and got the opposite results. My first two hits are: Britannica and Al Jazeera. The Britannica article uses the term first for the compound, then for the building and finally for the compound again. The Al Jazeera article uses the term only for the compound, and never for the building. If you are getting different links, please could you post them here - perhaps just the first 5 or 10? Onceinawhile (talk) 22:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Andrewa: 80% of that Britannica article is talking explicitly and only about the compound (blue text below) rather than the southern building, and the remaining sentences are about both. It shows perfectly why the title of this article needs disambiguating:
- Al-Aqṣā Mosque, mosque in Jerusalem, located in the Old City at the terminal point of the Prophet Muhammad’s Isrāʾ journey. According to Islamic sources, the Qurʾān (17:1) indicates that Muhammad was miraculously transported one night from Mecca (al-masjid al-ḥaram, or “the sacred place of worship”) to this site in Jerusalem (al-masjid al-aqṣā, “the farther place of worship”). On that spot he led Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other messengers (rusul) of God in ritual prayer (ṣalāt). That same night he was taken up to heaven from the site of the Dome of the Rock for an encounter with God (see Miʿrāj). The term Al-Aqṣā Mosque is often extended to denote the entirety of the plaza on which the mosque and the Dome of the Rock stand, although the plaza is known formally as Al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf (“the Noble Sanctuary”). In modern times the mosque and the plaza have become a particular point of tension in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Apart from its importance to Muslims, the plaza holds significance for Jews as the site of the Temple of Jerusalem, whose Herodian incarnation was destroyed in 70 CE. The Temple Mount, as Jews refer to the plaza, and the adjacent Western Wall have since served as a site of pilgrimage. During the Six-Day War, in 1967, Israel (state established 1948) captured East Jerusalem, including the Old City, from Jordan. Israel later annexed East Jerusalem, but the plaza was left under the custodianship of an Islamic trust (waqf) maintained by the Hashemite dynasty in Jordan. In the following decades, however, restrictions on Palestinian Muslims’ access to the site, as well as Israeli excavation projects in the vicinity and evictions of Palestinian residents in nearby neighbourhoods, contributed to Muslims’ concerns over the holy site’s fate. For more information on Al-Ḥaram al-Sharīf and its significance, see Dome of the Rock.
- That they have one of their facts wrong ("often extended to denote" should say "borrowed from"), as shown by high quality secondary sources (both recent and historical, well pre-dating the conflict), is an interesting aside and shows why we are a much better encyclopedia than they are... Onceinawhile (talk) 07:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I just looked into this further. Al Aqsa doesn’t feature in historical Britannica editions. It turns out that the above is a new Britannica online article written in April 2022 by an associate editor called Adam Zeidan, who had just finished a PhD in Semitic languages. I don’t think Britannica has any form of editorial vetting process any more – they fix mistakes as they find them. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi @Andrewa: 80% of that Britannica article is talking explicitly and only about the compound (blue text below) rather than the southern building, and the remaining sentences are about both. It shows perfectly why the title of this article needs disambiguating:
- Qualify my !vote above: It was rather naive, the right !vote but for the wrong reasons. This RM follows edits by nom with the apparent intention of having Al-Aqsa_Mosque (whether an article title or a redirect) refer to the whole Temple Mount. This is wrong, the title is at best ambiguous and the P T if there is one is indeed the congregational mosque. The unilateral rescoping of the article by nom should be reversed, so that the article once again covers both meanings. Alternatively, a two-way DAB could be at Al-Aqsa_Mosque. Andrewa (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Request for further extension / relist I sense some traction building in the discussion. This discussion requires uninvolved editors to do quite a lot of reading in order to be comfortable supporting a change, and I would prefer that we don’t rush them. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:10, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: There is indeed ongoing discussion here and at User talk:Andrewa/Aqsa. But much of it and most of the above is irrelevant to the issue here. The RM reads Al-Aqsa Mosque → Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) – Disambiguation of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as the term refers to both the congregational mosque ("Jami'a" in Arabic) or the entire mosque compound ("Masjid" in Arabic, cognate with Temple Mount). So the question here is, is Al-Aqsa Mosque sufficiently ambiguous in terms of WP:AT to require disambiguation? One motivation for this seems to be highly POV... if the term Al-Aqsa Mosque applies to the whole Temple Mount then that supports allowing Islamic prayers and only those to be permitted there, and this agenda is to be expected in some sources. That isn't a problem so far as article content goes, we simply report what the various sources say, and cite them, and thus avoid using the voice of Wikipedia either way. But the article title is far trickier. Andrewa (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- By highly POV do you mean not NPOV or something else? Selfstudier (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion is just going around in circles. In my opinion, there is no consensus to move the page and I don't think there will be anytime soon. One reason is that Al-Aqsa Mosque cannot refer to both the congregational mosque and the whole compound. At least not at the same time. Otherwise one could write "Al-Aqsa Mosque is situated in the southern end of Al-Aqsa Mosque", which makes no sense. The compound has many names of which Al-Aqsa Mosque is just one and not the main one. A good number of the sources that use that name add "compound" or "plaza", as in "Al-Aqsa Mosque compound". To sum up, there is some ambiguity by a a few sources, but most sources use different names for the compound and the congregational mosque. The hatnotes are sufficient to redirect readers from one article to the other. Vpab15 (talk) 18:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion is going round in circles because too many editors have refused to ground their opinions in policy. The issue here is primary topic. A review of google scholar will show that the compound is the primary topic, because apart from the physical topic, usage relating to the compound also includes the Quranic usage and the political usage. I believe that editors are inching closer to engaging with this central point. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that primary topic is part of this. The current situation reflects the belief that the primary topic of Al-Aqsa Mosque is the mosque building. Many sources express the opposite belief, that Al-Aqsa Mosque refers instead or as well to the entire temple mount. In the article itself these differing opinions can be sourced and reported in an NPOV fashion. But in the title we do not have this option. I confess to being a little surprised that this is so controversial. Obviously there are strong political reasons for wanting to regard the whole Temple Mount as a mosque, but they are fairly transparent, or so it seems to me, and we should be very wary of supporting them. I cannot see that it improves Wikipedia to do so. Andrewa (talk) 02:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's one side of it. It could be framed just as easily from the other direction. There are strong political reasons for not wanting to regard the whole Temple Mount as a mosque, despite the historical and present reality (see image). The political dimension to this has obviously bubbled up since 1948; the question is, does Wikipedia currently reflect all of this information neutrally at present, or is its core principle of neutrality being undermined with respect to this content? Coming back to the primary topic question, there seems to be little compelling evidence that one usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque holds sway over the other. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:18, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. The sources state that the Temple Mount has consistently been regarded as Masjid Al Aqsa for more than 1,000 years. Amongst some observers it was upgraded for a period above Masjid to "Haram", but was still always Masjid Al Aqsa. The POV question is not about whether or not the Temple Mount has been or is regarded as a Masjid - that is an incontrovertible fact. The debate is about whether Masjid Al Aqsa is a true synonym of "Al Aqsa Mosque" in English, which given how obvious the mosque = masjid equation is, is presumably only a debate because
there are strong political reasons for not wanting to regard the whole Temple Mount as a mosque
. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:59, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. The sources state that the Temple Mount has consistently been regarded as Masjid Al Aqsa for more than 1,000 years. Amongst some observers it was upgraded for a period above Masjid to "Haram", but was still always Masjid Al Aqsa. The POV question is not about whether or not the Temple Mount has been or is regarded as a Masjid - that is an incontrovertible fact. The debate is about whether Masjid Al Aqsa is a true synonym of "Al Aqsa Mosque" in English, which given how obvious the mosque = masjid equation is, is presumably only a debate because
- Observation This article used to cover both uses of the term. Roughly 2000 words related to the broader usage of the term al-Aqsa Mosque were removed from this article here by the user who proposed the move, the day after he proposed it. Drsmoo (talk) 12:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- And does any conclusion follow from this observation? Selfstudier (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that primary topic is part of this. The current situation reflects the belief that the primary topic of Al-Aqsa Mosque is the mosque building. Many sources express the opposite belief, that Al-Aqsa Mosque refers instead or as well to the entire temple mount. In the article itself these differing opinions can be sourced and reported in an NPOV fashion. But in the title we do not have this option. I confess to being a little surprised that this is so controversial. Obviously there are strong political reasons for wanting to regard the whole Temple Mount as a mosque, but they are fairly transparent, or so it seems to me, and we should be very wary of supporting them. I cannot see that it improves Wikipedia to do so. Andrewa (talk) 02:50, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion is going round in circles because too many editors have refused to ground their opinions in policy. The issue here is primary topic. A review of google scholar will show that the compound is the primary topic, because apart from the physical topic, usage relating to the compound also includes the Quranic usage and the political usage. I believe that editors are inching closer to engaging with this central point. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: There is indeed ongoing discussion here and at User talk:Andrewa/Aqsa. But much of it and most of the above is irrelevant to the issue here. The RM reads Al-Aqsa Mosque → Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque) – Disambiguation of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as the term refers to both the congregational mosque ("Jami'a" in Arabic) or the entire mosque compound ("Masjid" in Arabic, cognate with Temple Mount). So the question here is, is Al-Aqsa Mosque sufficiently ambiguous in terms of WP:AT to require disambiguation? One motivation for this seems to be highly POV... if the term Al-Aqsa Mosque applies to the whole Temple Mount then that supports allowing Islamic prayers and only those to be permitted there, and this agenda is to be expected in some sources. That isn't a problem so far as article content goes, we simply report what the various sources say, and cite them, and thus avoid using the voice of Wikipedia either way. But the article title is far trickier. Andrewa (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- That it's odd to make an argument that the scope of the Al-Aqsa Mosque article should cover the wider usage, while being the one who limited the scope of the article and proposed to rename it to that narrower scope. Not to mention redirecting pages that are literal translations of the term Al-Aqsa Mosque to Temple Mount, with the argument that the Al-Aqsa Mosque page doesn't contain that scope, when they were the one who limited it. Obviously there is no problem with an Al-Aqsa Mosque article that covers the common usage of the term while explaining the broader usage as well, which this article did, and was rated "Good". What conclusion do you draw? What is the rationale for removing massive amounts of content from a "Good Article" to change its scope, while proposing a name change to reflect the reduced scope you created, while arguing that the scope of the subject reflects the wider context that you just removed? Drsmoo (talk) 12:51, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- The rationale is at WP:CONTENTFORK and WP:V. The correct place for primary information about the compound is at Temple Mount. And this article was previously wrong, implying incorrectly that the "third holiest" and "first qibla" titles belonged to the prayer hall (irrespective of its name). Onceinawhile (talk) 14:23, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that you personally decided, based on a misunderstanding of Content Fork, that this article's scope should be reduced, and the content related to wider usage moved to the Temple Mount article. This despite this article being rated good while explaining the wider usage, and clearly existing alongside the Temple Mount article with no issues. Your understanding of Content Fork is incorrect. "Articles on distinct but related topics may well contain a significant amount of information in common with one another. This does not make either of the two articles a content fork." This is also self evident based on the fact that this article existed and was rated "Good" while covering the wider scope alongside Temple Mount. Along with numerous other examples, such as New York City/Big Apple and Violin/Fiddle, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 15:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- This article should be limited to the congregational mosque, just as the other Islamic edifices on the Temple Mount, including the other 'main' Islamic edifice, the Dome of the Rock, have their own articles. The shared name of 'al-Aqsa Mosque' between the congregational mosque and the wider site should be explained in this article, but we should not have the two subjects totally overlapped as it only causes confusion. At the time when I was editing and nominating this article for GA status, I was not paying much attention to the fact that a lot of the information about al-Aqsa Mosque in the sources, especially regarding the religious significance and administration aspects, applied to the whole compound (the Temple Mount). So you have a situation whereby the History section almost exclusively deals with the construction aspects of the congregational mosque, while most of the other sections deal with the wider site and concept. My lack of understanding only contributed to the current mess, which needs to be addressed. Also, the GA status, which was last granted to this article over 10 years ago, should not preclude serious efforts to sort this mess, which is one of several reasons why, imo, the article no longer meets the GA standards. The other reasons could be detailed in a different discussion. Al Ameer (talk) 18:37, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that you personally decided, based on a misunderstanding of Content Fork, that this article's scope should be reduced, and the content related to wider usage moved to the Temple Mount article. This despite this article being rated good while explaining the wider usage, and clearly existing alongside the Temple Mount article with no issues. Your understanding of Content Fork is incorrect. "Articles on distinct but related topics may well contain a significant amount of information in common with one another. This does not make either of the two articles a content fork." This is also self evident based on the fact that this article existed and was rated "Good" while covering the wider scope alongside Temple Mount. Along with numerous other examples, such as New York City/Big Apple and Violin/Fiddle, etc. Drsmoo (talk) 15:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- The rationale is at WP:CONTENTFORK and WP:V. The correct place for primary information about the compound is at Temple Mount. And this article was previously wrong, implying incorrectly that the "third holiest" and "first qibla" titles belonged to the prayer hall (irrespective of its name). Onceinawhile (talk) 14:23, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm led to believe that the editor primarily responsible for twice bringing the article to GA status no longer believes that it is GA "with failure to address the confusion of the mosque/compound being one of several reasons it should be reassessed/demoted". Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- That it's odd to make an argument that the scope of the Al-Aqsa Mosque article should cover the wider usage, while being the one who limited the scope of the article and proposed to rename it to that narrower scope. Not to mention redirecting pages that are literal translations of the term Al-Aqsa Mosque to Temple Mount, with the argument that the Al-Aqsa Mosque page doesn't contain that scope, when they were the one who limited it. Obviously there is no problem with an Al-Aqsa Mosque article that covers the common usage of the term while explaining the broader usage as well, which this article did, and was rated "Good". What conclusion do you draw? What is the rationale for removing massive amounts of content from a "Good Article" to change its scope, while proposing a name change to reflect the reduced scope you created, while arguing that the scope of the subject reflects the wider context that you just removed? Drsmoo (talk) 12:51, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support I was invited to offer my thoughts by the nominator due to my previous involvement here. There were a couple of past proposals to rename this article 'Qibli Mosque', reserving 'al-Aqsa Mosque' for the compound, which I opposed, as the former is not as common as our current title for the congregational mosque building. The congregational mosque, which is (or should be) the specific subject of this article, and the wider compound are both commonly referred to as 'al-Aqsa Mosque'. This is not really disputed by reliable sources and is a separate matter from the Muslim–Jewish religious dispute over the site (the proposal is not calling for the Temple Mount to be renamed 'al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)'). I believe the nominator and others have demonstrated this. Historical and technical accuracies are important, but the current proposal mainly makes sense if we accept that a substantial portion or majority of interested readers searching for 'al-Aqsa Mosque' are intending to read about the wider compound and will be led/misled to the congregational mosque article instead. It would be nice to have actual numbers, but short of that, I believe it is very reasonable that many readers will be seeking the article about the compound (Temple Mount) and many will be seeking this article about the congregational mosque, hence the need for a disambiguation page called 'al-Aqsa Mosque' (where we could go as far as including pictures clarifying the difference). The current solution of using a hatnote to point readers who have the compound in mind to the Temple Mount, while still helpful, is a half-measure. Al Ameer (talk) 18:37, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- But I disagree. I think a move to a controversial longer title will make the article even more confusing for readers, and reduce the quality, which is why I think the hatnotes are sufficient. Khestwol (talk) 20:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- But I agree. Shouldn't argue with sources, our job is to explain not suppress them. If the article is already confusing we should set about lessening that and I fail to see how explanation would reduce quality. Imagine that there were an article for the Sanctuary and imagine how you would explain it there, would you still be using hatnotes? Selfstudier (talk) 21:10, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it is more than sufficiently confusing. I myself was confused a month ago, before I read multiple sources on the subject in depth, and here you have the editor who brought the article twice to good article status stating that they also got tangled up in the confusion. This isn't a small, minor or otherwise cursory confusion. This is a very fundamental and important one. Did the hatnote help? Not really. Will it helps others? Probably not. At the moment, it is not even worded well. 'Main mosque building' is not a proper or useful term; instead, 'congregational mosque prayer hall' would be more or less the bare minimum for precisely disambiguating this terminology. @Khestwol: Since you recently revised it without addressing this, it would appear that you are also either unattuned to the detail here or also confused. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are sufficient reliable sources to explain both the common english usage of the word, as well as the wider usage of the compound within one article. Additionally, the article can explain how how the terminology has developed over time. There are sources that do just that and have been provided here. This article was rated "Good" with a configuration based on explaining all uses, and this article had content related to the wider usage before it was removed immediately following this move request being opened. Though I think the article can be improved not only beyond the state it was in prior to the move request, but beyond its prior "Good" article designation as well. Per Selfstudier above "My sense is that the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side" which I would class as a NPOV". The solution to this is to improve the article back to its good state. Drsmoo (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. After this RM, we can open a peer review, to coordinate views on what is needed to ensure it returns to the WP:GA requirements. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are sufficient reliable sources to explain both the common english usage of the word, as well as the wider usage of the compound within one article. Additionally, the article can explain how how the terminology has developed over time. There are sources that do just that and have been provided here. This article was rated "Good" with a configuration based on explaining all uses, and this article had content related to the wider usage before it was removed immediately following this move request being opened. Though I think the article can be improved not only beyond the state it was in prior to the move request, but beyond its prior "Good" article designation as well. Per Selfstudier above "My sense is that the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side" which I would class as a NPOV". The solution to this is to improve the article back to its good state. Drsmoo (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- But I disagree. I think a move to a controversial longer title will make the article even more confusing for readers, and reduce the quality, which is why I think the hatnotes are sufficient. Khestwol (talk) 20:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong support. I think the opposes are not understanding the issue here. When literature says "Al-Aqsa mosque" is the "third holiest in Islam", they are almost always referring to the entire Temple Mount complex (certainly including Dome of the Rock). In fact, the top results of a google image search of the term show either pictures of Dome of the Rock or the entire Temple Mount - the south building doesn't even come up in the top search results. Consider also that we currently have Masjid al-Aqsa redirecting to Temple Mount. This is silly. "Al-Aqsa mosque" is the English translation of "Masjid al-Aqsa" and they shouldn't be redirecting to different pages. The technical name for the current article topic is "Qibli" (see the Arabic encyclopedia article), but I grant that Al-Aqsa is more commonly used. This is why we need a disambiguation. Also, I prefer either Al Aqsa Mosque (building) or Al Aqsa Mosque (Qibli), but I'm ok with what is proposed too.VR talk 20:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Consider also that the usage of the term "Masjid Al-Aqsa" in Islamic literature (for example the Quran) predates any Islamic structure or even any Muslim presence at the site.VR talk 21:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- If most sources refer to the whole compound as Al-Aqsa Mosque, then they must refer to the congregational mosque by a different name (maybe Qibli?). In that case, a new move request should be created for that name. Vpab15 (talk) 21:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, as shown above, the sources are split. The sources I quoted refer to the whole compound as Al-Aqsa mosque, but others (eg Srnec) have quoted sources that use "Al Aqsa mosque" to refer to just the building. Thus a disambiguator is required.VR talk 21:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Per WP:TITLEDAB, Qibli could be the natural disambiguation in this case, assuming it is relatively common and not an obscure name. That would be preferable to using an ambiguous name. Vpab15 (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- No, as shown above, the sources are split. The sources I quoted refer to the whole compound as Al-Aqsa mosque, but others (eg Srnec) have quoted sources that use "Al Aqsa mosque" to refer to just the building. Thus a disambiguator is required.VR talk 21:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Consider also this source that explains the ambiguity:
Redirects
I think that the target Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque), currently a redlink, should be created as a redirect, pointing to this article. Does anyone object to me doing this immediately?
We should also clean up Al-Qibli Chapel which once redirected to a now non-existent section, and is now incorrectly flagged as R to section. We seem to have lost this content, or can anyone find it for me?
And, are Al-Qibli and Qibli Mosque both other names for this? Andrewa (talk) 20:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
In that nobody speaks and in that it's good to have an explicit name (at least as a redirect) for the building that is the narrower term, I have created the redirect at Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque).
Looking at the (long!) discussion above, it seems to me that the controversial issue is not so much whether we should have an article scoped to the building or even what it is to be called, but what to do with the name Al-Aqsa Mosque.
If it is to be the name of an article or even a redirect to an article, that article needs to cover both meanings. The other acceptable solution would be a two-way (at least) DAB. But a redirect to an article scoped to just one meaning (which seems to be the agenda of the nom) is not a good solution. Comments? Andrewa (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Andrewa: Al-Muṣallā al-Qiblī (the Qibli prayer hall, Qibli mosque, Qibli chapel (I suppose? Odd though.)) is the original name for the building, which was built built at a time when Masjid Al-aqsa or "Al-Aqsa Mosque" was so indisputably a name for the entire site that the modern contentions and confusions did not exist. As to my intent, I stated the need to disambiguate the modern, blurred meanings of Al-Aqsa Mosque in the immediately preceding talk page discussion. For now, I see the "Al-Aqsa Mosque" becoming a DAB page to the two competing meanings of the term: one in relation to the whole compound, which is the historic sense, still dominant sense in Arabic and subject-matter expert usage; the other being the sense on this page, which is a name for the Qibli prayer hall - a usage largely borne out by the news cycle, possibly due to unfortunate journalistic confusion, and replicated in pop literature. Some now see this as the clear primary topic, but no one has actually made a compelling case for that in this talk page thread. There is not a single piece of detailed source analysis even attempting to establish the Qibli prayer hall as the primary topic for "Al-Aqsa Mosque". Hence the motive to disambiguate. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:27, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you! I was not questioning your motives... although nom has seriously questioned mine and that is an ongoing discussion! But nom is Onceinawhile and I'm very confidently assuming that it is not you!
- My thinking on this has changed (see my modified !vote above) as I have done more research and I agree that the term Al-Aqsa Mosque needs disambiguation if it is used for an article on just the building. Either we restore the article to cover both meanings, which has the advantage of allowing a section on the history of the name, with references, or we have a DAB at the base name in which case a section on the name would then be appropriate in the article on the building IMO, with a very brief section linking to it from the Temple Mount article. Messy but it can work.
- You suggest other historical names for the building... Al-Muṣallā al-Qiblī, Qibli prayer hall, Qibli mosque, Qibli chapel, one of these differs from my suggestion Qibli Mosque only in capitalisation, and Al-Muṣallā al-Qiblī seems to be a less concise version of Al-Qibli, or is the latter ambiguous too? All are currently redlinks... are redirects from any of them justified, do you think? I will not create them anyway for the moment, better to see how this RM ends up and save the bot and database some work. Andrewa (talk) 05:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- True, I'm not the nom, though from the previous discussion you can see that the proposed move target was suggested by me. You're right that there is a bit of a pickle in terms of picking the best path forward. I supported the nom here because any notable building is an object of obvious and discrete encyclopedic value, and so, if this were a page devoted to both the wider usage of the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" and an architectural assessment of the Qibli prayer hall, there would still be a strong argument for then splitting the latter off as building/architectural article anyway. Since the current article is largely the latter already, I support this article being formally scoped as such. As for the disambiguation of "Al-Aqsa Mosque" as a wider term, I see three basic options: 1) to have a simple DAB page showing "Al-Aqsa Mosque (compound)" and "Al-Aqsa Mosque (congregational mosque)" with the former being a redirect to one of the sections on Temple mount, where the information on the historic naming is expounded, or 2) to have "Al-Aqsa Mosque" as an article purely devoted to the term itself, the history of the name (amply justifiable given the religious context and symbolism), with hatnotes and links to the relevant related articles on the compound and building. OR 3), do both 1) and 2), taking these options as a two-step disambiguation process. This third option accounts for the fact that a page fully explaining and expounding the term, its history and religious context may be best, but that editors resources are limited, and doing this may take time. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Al-Muṣallā al-Qiblī is simply the Arabic transliteration (not an English name), which I provided for context, because musalla is a simple term for "prayer hall" and denotes the humble origins of the structure as a part of the wider mosque complex, in contrast to the somewhat aggrandized modern misconstrued labelling of the building (a part) as the whole. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
@Andrewa: The purpose of this move discussion is to ultimately try to force a rename of the Temple Mount article away from its common name towards a nondescript term like “Sacred Esplanade”. Discussed in this move discussion here. You can also see on the Temple Mount article the same group of users pushing for this rename are pushing for a rename to Sacred Esplanade there. The user who started this move discussion was trying to enter language there calling Temple Mount an exclusively Jewish term, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Temple_Mount#Naming Iskandar called the Temple Mount title NPOV, but is proposing to redirect all of this article’s references to the wider area to the Temple Mount article. I think you can see where this is going. Wiki policy allows for multiple articles that cover different aspects of the same place. So what is happening is a moving of all aspects of the wider sense of Haram Al-Sharif/Al-Aqsa Mosque to the Temple Mount article/renaming the Al-Aqsa Mosque article, to then claim that it’s not neutral to have it all under the “Jewish” term of Temple Mount and push for a rename to a non-common, generic title. That’s why the user who made this move request is simultaneously A. claiming the term “Al-Aqsa Mosque” refers to a wider area. B. taking references to that wider area out of the Al-Aqsa Mosque article and moving them to the Temple Mount article, while also redirecting English translations of Al-Aqsa Mosque to Temple Mount. C. claiming that that the term Temple Mount is non neutral and should be changed to “Sacred Esplanade”. To make sense of the strange behavior at this article, you have to see what’s going on at the Temple Mount article (including multiple users repeatedly trying to insert a “terminology image” that uses “Sacred Esplanade” as the main name and “Temple Mount” as an AKA.The easy solution is to keep the Al-Aqsa Mosque article in the configuration it had when it was certified good, restore the deleted material that conforms with the wider usage of the term, and have both Temple Mount and Al-Aqsa Mosque articles coexisting.Drsmoo (talk) 10:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- @Andrewa: The best way to understand this move discussion is to read the discussion that preceded it on the Temple Mount page. There was a prolonged discussion there regarding naming. My assessment is that following this move discussion, there will likely be a requested move of the Temple Mount article away from its common name towards a nondescript term like “Sacred Esplanade”. That proposal is also discussed in this move discussion here. You can also see on the Temple Mount article the same group of users pushing for this rename are pushing for a rename to Sacred Esplanade there. The user who started this move discussion was trying to enter language there calling Temple Mount an exclusively Jewish term, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Temple_Mount#Naming Iskandar called the Temple Mount title NPOV, but is proposing to redirect all of this article’s references to the wider area to the Temple Mount article. I think you can see where this is going. However, wiki policy allows for multiple articles that cover different aspects of the same place "Articles on distinct but related topics may well contain a significant amount of information in common with one another. This does not make either of the two articles a content fork." So what is happening is a moving of all aspects of the wider sense of Haram Al-Sharif/Al-Aqsa Mosque to the Temple Mount article/renaming the Al-Aqsa Mosque article to prevent the wider usage content being restored, and if users maintain the opinions they've expressed here, there will be a claim that it’s not neutral to have it all under the “Jewish” term of Temple Mount with a push for a rename to a non-common, generic title. Then, if successful, the Al-Aqsa Mosque article will remain, and references to the Temple Mount throughout Wikipedia will be removed, despite it being the common name in English . To make sense of the strange behavior at this article, you have to see what’s going on at the Temple Mount article (including multiple users repeatedly trying to insert a “terminology image” that uses “Sacred Esplanade” as the main name and “Temple Mount” as an AKA).
- The easy solution is to keep the Al-Aqsa Mosque article in the configuration it had when it was certified good, restore the deleted material that conforms with the wider usage of the term, and have both Temple Mount and Al-Aqsa Mosque articles coexisting. edited 17:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- The easy solution is to be neutral as in WP:NPOV. Selfstudier (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- A few weeks ago, you wrote "the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side". My proposal is to have an article for the "other side". Do you no longer agree with that? Drsmoo (talk) 12:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I refer you to the comment you are (non sequitur) replying to (before your strikethrough/rearrange) and to the comments I have made at the TM article. This discussion is not about TM. (and please stop dicking around with the indentation, I had to redo this). Selfstudier (talk) 18:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware I had changed the indentation at all. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "neutral as in WP:NPOV"?Drsmoo (talk) 18:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Go by the sources. Selfstudier (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I wasn't aware I had changed the indentation at all. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "neutral as in WP:NPOV"?Drsmoo (talk) 18:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I refer you to the comment you are (non sequitur) replying to (before your strikethrough/rearrange) and to the comments I have made at the TM article. This discussion is not about TM. (and please stop dicking around with the indentation, I had to redo this). Selfstudier (talk) 18:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- A few weeks ago, you wrote "the root of the problem is that there is an article called Temple Mount referring to the compound and no such article for the "other side". My proposal is to have an article for the "other side". Do you no longer agree with that? Drsmoo (talk) 12:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Drsmoo, please note that correlation does not imply causation. Your incorrect assessment of others' "purpose" is inappropriate and bizarre, given that these are separate topics. I began my interest in fixing the confusing usage of Al Aqsa back in 2018 (Talk:Al-Aqsa Mosque/Archive 4#Name of article, and etymology & definitions sections), catalyzed by the personal experience I told in what you described as a "lovely personal anecdote".[10] I have been reading and learning ever since. The question of the name of the Temple Mount article is a new one, raised by other editors. Please can we keep to the topic at hand. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: You are correct that the Temple Mount is not neutral and an astonishing violation of NPOV, but that really has very little indeed to do with the discussion at hand here, and you would do better to consider Wikipedia discussions on their merit with respect to Wikipedia policy and guidelines, rather than with respect to the motives you attribute within your own mind to the actions of other editors. Though even your aspersions are off-key: organizations such as the UN that attempt to apply neutral terminology to the site tend towards Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount as the operative terminology, since the term Haram Al-Sharif unambiguously covers the entire area, so how “Al-Aqsa Mosque” is defined is of little import. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- How is the name Temple Mount not neutral for describing the Temple Mount? It is the commonly used term in English. The only way an argument could be made that it's not-neutral would be if the content ONLY lived under the umbrella of Temple Mount, and if there was no article for Islamic usage. However, that was not the case until this move discussion, and the best course of action is to have articles for both, in keeping with Wiki policy. I can't understand claiming that Temple Mount is non neutral, while moving content from here to there. There is no wikipolicy that necessitates moving that content. Drsmoo (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- See: Carman, John; Turek, Jan (2016). "Looking Back and Forward". Archaeologies. Springer Science and Business Media LLC. 12 (3): 231–239. doi:10.1007/s11759-017-9304-z. ISSN 1555-8622.
In part, the issue is one of the technical interpretations of WAC Statutes which require WAC to adhere to UN and UNESCO principles of Human Rights and official languages: whether the latter extends to adoption of UNESCO names for things and places is less clear. But it goes further than this: the names applied to places are also indications of claims of ownership and stakeholder status. Since WAC is also bound to defy the forcible occupation of territory and the oppression of peoples, to recognise ‘Temple Mount’ as a legitimate title is potentially to recognise Israeli claims and therefore implicitly offer support for Israeli occupation of Jerusalem in defiance of international condemnation.
- Also note Ngrams which shows that the term did not become widely used until after Israel's 1967 occupation. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- That doesn't answer my question at all. As I replied to Iskandar, that reasoning could only possibly make sense if all Islamic related content were only discussed in the Temple Mount article, and the Temple Mount article was a catch all. There is nothing biased about having an article for the Temple Mount, which is both highly notable and highly common. It goes without saying that archaeological journal articles are written constantly that use the term Temple Mount. In fact, as Iskandar linked above, the terminology used by the UN now includes Temple Mount. Previously, there were articles that covered both the wider usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as Temple Mount. You have been removing long-standing Islamic-related content from the Al-Aqsa Mosque article, to put in the Temple Mount article, actions which you seem to believe are creating a non NPOV situation. Why would you deliberately create a situation you believe is non neutral, when there is no wiki policy that necessitates it? Regarding Ngrams, Al-Aqsa Mosque usage ramps up at the same time, just with less usage. Drsmoo (talk) 14:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, the UN is actually a little ambiguous on the subject, alternating between Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount and just Haram al-Sharif, as per General Assembly votes in both 2019 and 2021. But your point is moot, because the temple mount page is currently also the only one for Haram al-Sharif, unless you are arguing that this page, Al-Aqsa Mosque, is for the entire site, which runs counter to your usual position on the subject, which is that "Al-Aqsa Mosque" is not a term for the entire site. However, if you are now arguing the opposite, then you would seem to be arguing for a fairly exemplary POVFORK, with two parallel histories, one Jewish and one Islamic. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Only because the content for Haram Al-Sharif was removed from here and moved to there. Previously, this article covered both usages, which is when it was rated Good. My position is the factual statement that the term Al-Aqsa Mosque is commonly used to describe the mosque building specifically, with compound appended for wider usage, and that if this article is to cover only the building, it does not need a name change. However, that was before I observed that the scope of this article was massively changed, away from its good state. My position continues to be that the article title should not change, but also that the relevant content explaining the wider usage should be restored to the article. And if not that, an article for Al-Aqsa Mosque (Compound) or Haram al-Sharif should be created. What definitely should not happen, is to remove Islamic content from pages focused on that content, move it to Temple Mount, creating a situation that you then deem NPOV, then allege that this newly created situation you deem POV necessitates renaming (essentially removing) Temple Mount, all while Wiki policy supports having multiple articles. Drsmoo (talk) 14:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Please see my comment below (11:13, 30 June 2022) with green text quotation confirming that Al Ameer, the primary author of the article and the editor who brought it twice to GA status, stated clearly his view that this article is and has always been about the prayer hall building not the wider compound. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you think that an article called Al-Aqsa Mosque (Compound) is sound, you should not be opposing disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm opposing moving content into Temple Mount and then claiming the moved content makes Temple Mount POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsmoo (talk • contribs)- @Drsmoo: Here is the version of the Temple Mount in mid-May, before some content was moved from here. My prior edit to that article was more than a year earlier. It says clearly that the Temple Mount is also known as Al Aqsa Mosque. The moving of content simply fixed an error here. It had nothing to do with the other debate. Your constant accusations are growing tiring and I will need to report you if this does not stop. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually didn't intent to respond to Iskandar there, hence it being unsigned/unfinished. Now it is struck. I will phrase things more gently going forward. Do you consider the Temple Mount article name non neutral because it's the only article for information on Haram al-Sharif, or is there a different reason? Drsmoo (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: thanks. I consider Temple Mount article name non-neutral because it has the word Temple in it. If it had the word Mosque in it, I would consider it non-neutral as well, even though it is actively used as a mosque today.
- Another reason is because the name Temple Mount is derived from Rabbinic sources. A name derived from the Quran would be non-neutral too.
- The site is important to all Abrahamic religions. We are a neutral encyclopedia. All neutral sources either give multiple names for the site, or use a neutral name. So should we. As I have said elsewhere, I have a strong aversion to creating duplicate articles because editors cannot agree on an article name. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- The name "Har Habayit", often translated as Temple Mount, is not from "Rabbinic sources", it's biblical. You also didn't respond regarding which error you were "fixing" by removing longstanding content from this page and moving it to the Temple Mount page. Drsmoo (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Per my comment on 24 June: “this article was previously wrong, implying incorrectly that the "third holiest" and "first qibla" titles belonged to the prayer hall (irrespective of its name).” See the text removed on 31 May here: there is an uncertain statement at the top about the whole compound, but then the Isra+Miraj, First Qibla, and Third Holiest statements are all written to refer to “Al Aqsa Mosque” without being clear whether they mean the compound or the southern building. Written this way in this article strongly implied the statements applied to the southern building, which we have established is incorrect. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- As to Har Habayit being biblical or rabbinic, Yaron Eliav seems clear that it was used independently only once in the Bible (in the Book of Micah) with the single usage in Jeremiah and Maccabees being effectively quotations. The flourishing of the term was in rabbinic literature. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- So your remedy was not to fix ormimprove this article, but to remove the text applying to a wider situation, and place it in a contextwhich you then considered non NPOV? That doesn't make sense. This article pertained to both uses, in accordance with contemporary usage. The term Har HaBayit is biblical, it appears twice in the bible, and three times if Maccabees is included. The term Har Bayit Yahweh appears three times. The term Masjid al-Aqsa is Quranic, it appears a single time in the Quran. Drsmoo (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- You repeat again your claim that "This article pertained to both uses", despite the clear to the contrary from its primary author, who brought the article twice to GA, through his comments in 2015 and 2022. Have you reviewed that evidence? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- This article is about the Qibli prayer hall: that's why it has a "religious building" infobox. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article is about whatever content is in the article. Previously, the article had vastly more content regarding the wider scope. If content about the wider scope is removed, then yes it is about the building, infoboxes are editable as well. Drsmoo (talk) 14:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Have you reviewed Al Ameer’s comments from 2015 and 2022? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I actually haven't and have little interest honestly. I'm more interested in the actual composition of the article when it was most recently appraised as having Good status. In that state, the article explored and explained both uses of the word, while using the term mosque for the building, per common English usage. Drsmoo (talk) 15:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Great stuff,
'little interest'
in absorbing information pertinent to the discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:05, 1 July 2022 (UTC)- Unless they're a reliable source it's just one user's opinion. More interested in the Good article assessment itself and a holistic sense of the article. Drsmoo (talk) 16:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Uh huh, except the Good Article assessment are what Al Ameer's comments about - I don't think you are interested in that at all. I think you are only interested in holding up the article's GA status as a form of totem in order to vindicate the various positions that you can't actually justify through discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- When the article explained both usages while also attributing the Al-Aqsa Mosque name to its common name in English, it was certified Good. That supports usage of that configuration. That doesn't mean that it couldn't potentially be certified Good in another configuration, but it does support that we know the combined configuration is "Good". What I continue to find curious, and still have not seen a satisfactory answer to, is why longstanding, stable content was removed from this article (during a move discussion no less), away from the "good configuration", towards a new context which the users making the move have described in various terms as being POV. It is not good practice to put content into a context that one considers POV, or that violates Wikipedia guidelines. I'm also not saying that the new context is in fact POV. Just that its curious that any user would state a concern over an article title/configuration, while simultaneously reinforcing that configuration. Drsmoo (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Read the GA nominator's comments, and maybe we'll talk. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh that I've read. It's fine to have that opinion. But if you look at the actual 2011 version that was ranked good, which he's referring to, it specifically says "In Islam, the term "al-Aqsa Mosque" is not restricted to the mosque only, but to the entire Noble Sanctuary.". As of recently, that was changed to "Some Muslims use the term", but that would justify either re-adding the original content or having a discussion over it. As opposed to removing content and placing it under an article you believe has a POV title when there are other options available (like changing the scope of this article or creating one for Haram al-Sharif). There's no wikipolicy that necessitates only one article for tangentially related subjects, and many notable subjects have multiple articles discussing different usages. Drsmoo (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm still not sure what you want. As I mentioned here, before the strike comment debacle, were an architectural article on the Qibli Mosque not to exist, it would be justified to create one, so even if you believe that there should be a Haram al-Sharif article distinct from the Temple Mount article, a Qibli Mosque article under the title Al-Aqsa Mosque (insert disambiguating phrase) would still be required. Since the article under discussion here is largely about the single building's history and architecture (it was still 70% about the specific building even back in the 2011 version that attained GA status), whether you think broader term 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' should be a redirect to Temple Mount or a standalone article, this discrete article on architecture should be moved aside to a location discretely disambiguated it as such - to allow for the broader meaning of the term Al-Aqsa Mosque to be disambiguated, expounded, elaborated into its own article, or whatever other purpose people might have in mind for it. That's about it. I'm not sure what you think is happening here. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable view. Drsmoo (talk) 20:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Drsmoo, in replying to Iskandar here, please refrain from talking about the past. It is not constructive, is unnecessarily combative, and we are just going round in circles. Please simply explain what you think all these articles should look like in future. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Talking about the past is not combative, and it is constructive as it informs us how this article was better than it is now, and ways to improve (restore) the article to good standing. I (and most of the respondents on this page) have already stated what I/they think this article, singular, should look like in the future. Drsmoo (talk) 20:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm still not sure what you want. As I mentioned here, before the strike comment debacle, were an architectural article on the Qibli Mosque not to exist, it would be justified to create one, so even if you believe that there should be a Haram al-Sharif article distinct from the Temple Mount article, a Qibli Mosque article under the title Al-Aqsa Mosque (insert disambiguating phrase) would still be required. Since the article under discussion here is largely about the single building's history and architecture (it was still 70% about the specific building even back in the 2011 version that attained GA status), whether you think broader term 'Al-Aqsa Mosque' should be a redirect to Temple Mount or a standalone article, this discrete article on architecture should be moved aside to a location discretely disambiguated it as such - to allow for the broader meaning of the term Al-Aqsa Mosque to be disambiguated, expounded, elaborated into its own article, or whatever other purpose people might have in mind for it. That's about it. I'm not sure what you think is happening here. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Oh that I've read. It's fine to have that opinion. But if you look at the actual 2011 version that was ranked good, which he's referring to, it specifically says "In Islam, the term "al-Aqsa Mosque" is not restricted to the mosque only, but to the entire Noble Sanctuary.". As of recently, that was changed to "Some Muslims use the term", but that would justify either re-adding the original content or having a discussion over it. As opposed to removing content and placing it under an article you believe has a POV title when there are other options available (like changing the scope of this article or creating one for Haram al-Sharif). There's no wikipolicy that necessitates only one article for tangentially related subjects, and many notable subjects have multiple articles discussing different usages. Drsmoo (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Read the GA nominator's comments, and maybe we'll talk. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- When the article explained both usages while also attributing the Al-Aqsa Mosque name to its common name in English, it was certified Good. That supports usage of that configuration. That doesn't mean that it couldn't potentially be certified Good in another configuration, but it does support that we know the combined configuration is "Good". What I continue to find curious, and still have not seen a satisfactory answer to, is why longstanding, stable content was removed from this article (during a move discussion no less), away from the "good configuration", towards a new context which the users making the move have described in various terms as being POV. It is not good practice to put content into a context that one considers POV, or that violates Wikipedia guidelines. I'm also not saying that the new context is in fact POV. Just that its curious that any user would state a concern over an article title/configuration, while simultaneously reinforcing that configuration. Drsmoo (talk) 17:19, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Uh huh, except the Good Article assessment are what Al Ameer's comments about - I don't think you are interested in that at all. I think you are only interested in holding up the article's GA status as a form of totem in order to vindicate the various positions that you can't actually justify through discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Unless they're a reliable source it's just one user's opinion. More interested in the Good article assessment itself and a holistic sense of the article. Drsmoo (talk) 16:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Iskandar beat me to it. This is the fourth (fifth?) time I have read this. To what end? What is the point? If the idea is that something is supposed to be in the article then edit that and see what occurs.Selfstudier (talk) 16:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Great stuff,
- I actually haven't and have little interest honestly. I'm more interested in the actual composition of the article when it was most recently appraised as having Good status. In that state, the article explored and explained both uses of the word, while using the term mosque for the building, per common English usage. Drsmoo (talk) 15:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Have you reviewed Al Ameer’s comments from 2015 and 2022? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- The article is about whatever content is in the article. Previously, the article had vastly more content regarding the wider scope. If content about the wider scope is removed, then yes it is about the building, infoboxes are editable as well. Drsmoo (talk) 14:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- So your remedy was not to fix ormimprove this article, but to remove the text applying to a wider situation, and place it in a contextwhich you then considered non NPOV? That doesn't make sense. This article pertained to both uses, in accordance with contemporary usage. The term Har HaBayit is biblical, it appears twice in the bible, and three times if Maccabees is included. The term Har Bayit Yahweh appears three times. The term Masjid al-Aqsa is Quranic, it appears a single time in the Quran. Drsmoo (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- As to Har Habayit being biblical or rabbinic, Yaron Eliav seems clear that it was used independently only once in the Bible (in the Book of Micah) with the single usage in Jeremiah and Maccabees being effectively quotations. The flourishing of the term was in rabbinic literature. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:04, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Per my comment on 24 June: “this article was previously wrong, implying incorrectly that the "third holiest" and "first qibla" titles belonged to the prayer hall (irrespective of its name).” See the text removed on 31 May here: there is an uncertain statement at the top about the whole compound, but then the Isra+Miraj, First Qibla, and Third Holiest statements are all written to refer to “Al Aqsa Mosque” without being clear whether they mean the compound or the southern building. Written this way in this article strongly implied the statements applied to the southern building, which we have established is incorrect. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- The name "Har Habayit", often translated as Temple Mount, is not from "Rabbinic sources", it's biblical. You also didn't respond regarding which error you were "fixing" by removing longstanding content from this page and moving it to the Temple Mount page. Drsmoo (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- TM is obviously not a neutral name, look what happens when the UN puts out a resolution referring only to the Sanctuary, pro Israeli sources going on about not being neutral. TM only here is the reverse situation. I said what I would personally prefer at the TM page, which is where this discussion belongs, not here. Selfstudier (talk) 21:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also, which error on here was your edit fixing? Drsmoo (talk) 19:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I actually didn't intent to respond to Iskandar there, hence it being unsigned/unfinished. Now it is struck. I will phrase things more gently going forward. Do you consider the Temple Mount article name non neutral because it's the only article for information on Haram al-Sharif, or is there a different reason? Drsmoo (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
TM was tagged for non neutrality for a bunch of reasons that can be seen on the talk page, very little to do with anything done by Once in the dim and distant.Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)Here is the talk post where the POV tag was added. Drsmoo (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- Since you have deleted the comment I was replying to I will now delete my reply so that there is no misunderstanding. Selfstudier (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: Here is the version of the Temple Mount in mid-May, before some content was moved from here. My prior edit to that article was more than a year earlier. It says clearly that the Temple Mount is also known as Al Aqsa Mosque. The moving of content simply fixed an error here. It had nothing to do with the other debate. Your constant accusations are growing tiring and I will need to report you if this does not stop. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Only because the content for Haram Al-Sharif was removed from here and moved to there. Previously, this article covered both usages, which is when it was rated Good. My position is the factual statement that the term Al-Aqsa Mosque is commonly used to describe the mosque building specifically, with compound appended for wider usage, and that if this article is to cover only the building, it does not need a name change. However, that was before I observed that the scope of this article was massively changed, away from its good state. My position continues to be that the article title should not change, but also that the relevant content explaining the wider usage should be restored to the article. And if not that, an article for Al-Aqsa Mosque (Compound) or Haram al-Sharif should be created. What definitely should not happen, is to remove Islamic content from pages focused on that content, move it to Temple Mount, creating a situation that you then deem NPOV, then allege that this newly created situation you deem POV necessitates renaming (essentially removing) Temple Mount, all while Wiki policy supports having multiple articles. Drsmoo (talk) 14:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, the UN is actually a little ambiguous on the subject, alternating between Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount and just Haram al-Sharif, as per General Assembly votes in both 2019 and 2021. But your point is moot, because the temple mount page is currently also the only one for Haram al-Sharif, unless you are arguing that this page, Al-Aqsa Mosque, is for the entire site, which runs counter to your usual position on the subject, which is that "Al-Aqsa Mosque" is not a term for the entire site. However, if you are now arguing the opposite, then you would seem to be arguing for a fairly exemplary POVFORK, with two parallel histories, one Jewish and one Islamic. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- That doesn't answer my question at all. As I replied to Iskandar, that reasoning could only possibly make sense if all Islamic related content were only discussed in the Temple Mount article, and the Temple Mount article was a catch all. There is nothing biased about having an article for the Temple Mount, which is both highly notable and highly common. It goes without saying that archaeological journal articles are written constantly that use the term Temple Mount. In fact, as Iskandar linked above, the terminology used by the UN now includes Temple Mount. Previously, there were articles that covered both the wider usage of Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as Temple Mount. You have been removing long-standing Islamic-related content from the Al-Aqsa Mosque article, to put in the Temple Mount article, actions which you seem to believe are creating a non NPOV situation. Why would you deliberately create a situation you believe is non neutral, when there is no wiki policy that necessitates it? Regarding Ngrams, Al-Aqsa Mosque usage ramps up at the same time, just with less usage. Drsmoo (talk) 14:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- See: Carman, John; Turek, Jan (2016). "Looking Back and Forward". Archaeologies. Springer Science and Business Media LLC. 12 (3): 231–239. doi:10.1007/s11759-017-9304-z. ISSN 1555-8622.
- How is the name Temple Mount not neutral for describing the Temple Mount? It is the commonly used term in English. The only way an argument could be made that it's not-neutral would be if the content ONLY lived under the umbrella of Temple Mount, and if there was no article for Islamic usage. However, that was not the case until this move discussion, and the best course of action is to have articles for both, in keeping with Wiki policy. I can't understand claiming that Temple Mount is non neutral, while moving content from here to there. There is no wikipolicy that necessitates moving that content. Drsmoo (talk) 12:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- The easy solution is to be neutral as in WP:NPOV. Selfstudier (talk) 10:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree. Andrewa (talk) 11:41, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- What a mess! I note that Drsmoo has modified their post after replies had been posted, and has (perhaps unintentionally) concealed this by neither changing the timestamp on the post nor adding a new one.
- I do not think any of that can be fixed now, except perhaps for them to belatedly add a new timestamp to their modified post. See the guideline at WP:TALK#REPLIED for how to do this.
- This violation of WP:TALK#REPLIED has been complicated by their use of the default edit summary reply, I am guessing by using the (newish and very useful) [reply] link. I confess I have been guilty of this too! I have only recently begun using this link, and even more recently noted that it allows you to override the edit summary. Both recommended! Andrewa (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: This seems to be becoming a habit, and you have been warned against it. If you want to
strikeold posts that have been replied to by other editors, you can, but rewriting comments that have been responded to is very inappropriate. Take @Andrewa: they may now be seen to be agreeing to things they don't agree to. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- Was just toning down accusatory language, no substance was changed. Drsmoo (talk) 16:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, you also added a policy link and quote, and that is the first of just two changes to the same comment, the other being this. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. Andrewa (talk) 17:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Was just toning down accusatory language, no substance was changed. Drsmoo (talk) 16:24, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Drsmoo: This seems to be becoming a habit, and you have been warned against it. If you want to
- I agree with everything stated by both Iskandar and Andrew above (with the sole exception of Andrew's suggestion that I have sought to question his motives - I can assure you that I think your motives are entirely aligned with mine, i.e. ensuring that this ends up being correct and clear for our readers). I am also supportive of the points made in Andrew's vote modification comment above. The only thing I am keen to ensure we avoid (which Iskander's comments address well) is a content fork. There are simply too many of these in the Israel-Palestine part of Wikipedia, always due to failure to agree on an article title, and once they are created they are impossible to put back together (Bolter21 and I have tried and failed too many times - see e.g. here, here and here). There should be only one article covering the compound (Temple Mount / Masjid Al Aqsa), and it should not be called Al Aqsa, as I prefer a neutral name for it. An article for the terminology "Al Aqsa Mosque" could be interesting, as would an article for the term "Temple Mount". Obviously an article on the specific Jami'a Al Aqsa building is entirely appropriate. A few years ago this existed - it was merged in here after a very confused discussion between editors here.
- As an aside I don't think Andrew's characterization of "restore the article to cover both meanings" is quite right. Al Ameer, who commented above, and is the primary author of the article and the editor who brought it twice to GA status, stated at the Qibli merge discussion:
The Jami al-Qibli appears to be another name for the al-Aqsa Mosque building i.e. the subject of this article... The subject material of this article is the same exact subject of the Qibli Chapel. There is a dispute, which is mentioned in the article, regarding the specific definition of the "al-Aqsa Mosque", with the two sides of the argument being that the Aqsa Mosque is the building with the silver dome or that the Aqsa Mosque is the entire compound including the Dome of the Rock. In this case, there should be a discussion about renaming this article the Qibli Chapel or Qibli Mosque.
(Al Ameer has subsequently confirmed he would not support a renaming to Qibli Chapel at it is not the commonname). Onceinawhile (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- This seems to support having Jami al-Qibli and Qibli Chapel as redirects to whichever article ends up covering the building, does it not? Andrewa (talk) 11:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Technically it's Jami al-Aqsa or Al-Musalla al-Qibli; I'm not sure Jami al-Qibli has ever cropped up as a specific combination in the Arabic. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Suddenly wondering if the title should actually be Al-Aqsa Mosque (prayer hall) - might be a little more concise and less duplicative. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- OK with that. It would be consistent with what is now known as the El-Marwani Prayer Hall and how it works at other sites such as Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting suggestion, best yet IMO. But the main point of controversy in my opinion remains the destination of Al-Aqsa Mosque. I don't think I can support any move without that being resolved. And I think we are making progress. Andrewa (talk) 17:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- For interest, a vaguely similar situation occurs with City of David, arguably this should be an article, however the same sort of naming/nationalist issues prevent it and it is functioning as a DAB to various other articles. Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Further to Andrew's comment, I have created Al-Aqsa Mosque (disambiguation) as a potential destination for Al-Aqsa Mosque. Comments and edits appreciated. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- For interest, a vaguely similar situation occurs with City of David, arguably this should be an article, however the same sort of naming/nationalist issues prevent it and it is functioning as a DAB to various other articles. Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Suddenly wondering if the title should actually be Al-Aqsa Mosque (prayer hall) - might be a little more concise and less duplicative. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- This seems to support having Jami al-Qibli and Qibli Chapel as redirects to whichever article ends up covering the building, does it not? Andrewa (talk) 11:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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"... the holy site or esplanade known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount"
@Drsmoo: thanks for the additional sources here. I don't object to the addition of the word "Christians", but it needs a caveat, as Hillel Cohen clearly explains that Palestinian Christians also refer to the compound as Al Aqsa: "The holy site known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or al-Aqsa is central to both the Jewish and Palestinian Arab national movements… Al-Aqsa can thus be seen as the central symbol of Palestinian nationalism... One should bear in mind that since the emergence of nationalism in the Arab world, important schools have insisted on separation of religion and state. In addition, a degree of tension exists between al-Aqsa’s two aspects, as a national symbol uniting Palestinian Muslims and Christians, and al-Aqsa as an exclusively Muslim symbol. In other words, the intentions of Palestinians united under the banner of al-Aqsa are not all the same… For the Palestinians, al-Aqsa is a singular focal point of self-respect and religious destiny. This heightens their commitment to the site, without connection to their religious affiliation (Muslim or Christian) or level of religious belief and observance."
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not only Palestinian Christians - the Vatican itself, the largest Christian church in the world, refers to it as "the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2022-04/jerusalem-clashes-palestinians-israeli-police-settlements-al-aqs.html or simply as "Al-Aqsa mosque": https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2021-05/wcc-pope-francis-appeal-calm-jerusalem-palestinian-clashes.html Dan Palraz (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
None of the above sources make the assertions being claimed at all, let alone “clearly”. Which isn't to say it's not true, just that that source isn't discussing names/terms. As for the Vatican “The view from here is one of the best and most intriguing of the western part of the Holy City, its walls, famous Mosques built on the Temple Mount“ https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_june-sept-1996_motta_en.html Drsmoo (talk) 14:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's sort of why it needs disambiguating, lol.Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Vatican uses the term "Holy Basin" for the Temple Mount and the wider area. In Italian, the site is called Monte del Tempio, which conforms with https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_Heaven_and_Earth_Meet/CW6U921i4fEC?hl=en&gbpv=0 "In Rabbinic tradition the area is known as "the Temple Mount" (Har ha-bayit; literally: "Mountain of the House"); the same term recurs today in modern European languages." Temple Mount is also, from my own personal research, the term used in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. Drsmoo (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Drsmoo, I have have asked you before not to alter comments that have been replied to, this time you have even altered the time stamp as well as altering the comment so that it seems my reply is before your comment instead of after, guaranteed to cause confusion, so I altered my time stamp too.Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also, save me some time trawling, in your most recent edit you say you are "restoring" material, when was it removed? And why? Selfstudier (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, unless I missed it, you've never made that request of me, perhaps you're thinking of someone else? Feel free to alter your time stamp. You can ask Dan Palraz, he removed the reliably sourced information that Jews and Christians both call the site Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- 4294 of text was "restored", Dan Palraz shows removal of about 1200 so that's not right somewhere, it's not just the Jews and Christians, is it? And there is also discussion of that aspect here as well. At this point I am tempted to revert.Selfstudier (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, unless I missed it, you've never made that request of me, perhaps you're thinking of someone else? Feel free to alter your time stamp. You can ask Dan Palraz, he removed the reliably sourced information that Jews and Christians both call the site Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Vatican uses the term "Holy Basin" for the Temple Mount and the wider area. In Italian, the site is called Monte del Tempio, which conforms with https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_Heaven_and_Earth_Meet/CW6U921i4fEC?hl=en&gbpv=0 "In Rabbinic tradition the area is known as "the Temple Mount" (Har ha-bayit; literally: "Mountain of the House"); the same term recurs today in modern European languages." Temple Mount is also, from my own personal research, the term used in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. Drsmoo (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- So, it has been proved that we have Christians who call it Temple Mount, we have Christians who call it Al-Aqsa Mosque, we have Christians who call it other things. Will we have it all in the lead? There is no "Christian" name for it, so it's pointless adding Christians to the equation. Dan Palraz (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are also (presumably) Jews who call it Haram al-Sharif, and (presumably) Muslims who call it Temple Mount, etc. Multiple reliable sources attest to Jews and Christians calling it Temple Mount. I don’t think any person interprets that as every single human being. My question though is why you specifically removed Christians, despite it being attested to in very reliable and relevant sources? As to “no Christian name”, the King James Bible uses “Mountain of the House”, which is a direct translation of “Har ha-Bayit”.Drsmoo (talk) 00:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- One bible translation does not authoritative terminology make. Also, we very explicitly don't adhere to primary religious texts. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:22, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- The question could be reversed, why include Christians? Pretty obvious attempt to relatively puff up the Temple Mount, just because something is true (in a limited sense) doesn't mean we need to include it, right? I'd be for removal because we are going to end up with a very cluttered lead sentence. I have no objection to it going in the body somewhere as additional detail. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Per Iskandar's point above regarding "One bible translation", the term used in the Christian Bible is "Har ha-Bayit", and alternate translations used are all translations of Har ha-Bayit. The term Temple Mount is the term used in "modern European languages (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_Heaven_and_Earth_Meet/CW6U921i4fEC?hl=en&gbpv=0)", and also, in every non-Arabic derived/adjacent language I've seen (adding Hindi to the list) (I'd be curious to see alternate names in other languages, please let me know if you see one). That's not just "known to Jews", which is obviously a massive minimization of the actual usage of the term. Reliable sources state that it is known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount. Drsmoo (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, since it is not a religious site contested to a significant degree by Christianity, this is secondary information. If we include Christians, why stop there? Why not include the views of Samaritans? Druze? Other local minorities and religious denominations with different terminology and opinions? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:57, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are there multiple reliable sources specifically dedicated to this subject that discuss the names used by those religions? Another relevant source The Temple Mount in Jewish and Early Christian Traditions "In English, it is commonly referred to as the Temple Mount, but the literal translation of the Hebrew would be the "Mount of the House." Judaism and Islam in particular, but Christianity also, still revere the site as holy." If "Jews and Christians" is too minimal, we could use the above source, along with Modern European Languages from the Heaven and Earth source. Drsmoo (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are missing the point here, editors are essentially stating that this is undue for the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 13:33, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- More of an WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, there's no basis for claiming it's undue. The lead for Temple Mount already says it's been venerated as a Christian Holy Site for thousands of years. "The city as a whole is sacred to the three religions, and certain areas in it are venerated by all three, sometimes for very similar ideological reasons. The Temple Mount – the site of the Temple – and the Mount of Olives – the site of the resurrection and the Last Judgment – are obvious examples." - Sharing Sacred Space: Holy Places in Jerusalem Between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam Drsmoo (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- After all this discussion you found a few sources that say something you like and just shoved it in the lead, it's not even in the body so shouldn't be in the lead anyway. So, apart from undue, there's another reason. Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you should get started on WP:IJDLI ... there's only so much pot kettle that everyone can take. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- More of an WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT, there's no basis for claiming it's undue. The lead for Temple Mount already says it's been venerated as a Christian Holy Site for thousands of years. "The city as a whole is sacred to the three religions, and certain areas in it are venerated by all three, sometimes for very similar ideological reasons. The Temple Mount – the site of the Temple – and the Mount of Olives – the site of the resurrection and the Last Judgment – are obvious examples." - Sharing Sacred Space: Holy Places in Jerusalem Between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam Drsmoo (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Verifiable does not mean due for inclusion. Confusing these things displays an extremely shallow grasp of policy. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- And now we see the usual personal attacks. The sentence relates to who uses the term Temple Mount as opposed to Haram al-Sharif. The answer is broadly "Modern European languages" (but actually even wider then that), and narrowly, Jews and Christians. You're saying it's not in the body, well neither is the relevance to Jews. The other idea, that the site is not of serious significance to Christians, is simply factually wrong. Drsmoo (talk) 16:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- This article is not about the Temple Mount.Selfstudier (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Instead of reinventing the wheel here, why not just copy paste what's in the Temple Mount article? Selfstudier (talk) 17:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I fail to see how the Aqsa congregational mosque is of immediate prominence to other faiths. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:31, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- You've been shown the sources saying that Palestinian Christians refer to it as the Al-Aqsa Mosque, so which "Christians" exactly are you generalizing with respect to. I can tell you that Christians in Europe don't give a jot about the minutiae of Holy land geography. Is it bible bashers from the evangelical heartlands of the US? I don't see how a dubious blanket statement about Christians is of use here. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oops, yes, and the Vatican - and this is exactly how the conversation began: which Christians?! If you can't find a statement in a reliable, secondary source usefully caveating that information, then either we have contradictory information or synth. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- And now we see the usual personal attacks. The sentence relates to who uses the term Temple Mount as opposed to Haram al-Sharif. The answer is broadly "Modern European languages" (but actually even wider then that), and narrowly, Jews and Christians. You're saying it's not in the body, well neither is the relevance to Jews. The other idea, that the site is not of serious significance to Christians, is simply factually wrong. Drsmoo (talk) 16:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you are missing the point here, editors are essentially stating that this is undue for the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 13:33, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are there multiple reliable sources specifically dedicated to this subject that discuss the names used by those religions? Another relevant source The Temple Mount in Jewish and Early Christian Traditions "In English, it is commonly referred to as the Temple Mount, but the literal translation of the Hebrew would be the "Mount of the House." Judaism and Islam in particular, but Christianity also, still revere the site as holy." If "Jews and Christians" is too minimal, we could use the above source, along with Modern European Languages from the Heaven and Earth source. Drsmoo (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are also (presumably) Jews who call it Haram al-Sharif, and (presumably) Muslims who call it Temple Mount, etc. Multiple reliable sources attest to Jews and Christians calling it Temple Mount. I don’t think any person interprets that as every single human being. My question though is why you specifically removed Christians, despite it being attested to in very reliable and relevant sources? As to “no Christian name”, the King James Bible uses “Mountain of the House”, which is a direct translation of “Har ha-Bayit”.Drsmoo (talk) 00:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Christians in Europe gave enough of a jot to create the Templars. The sacred esplanade book has a whole section on the Temple Mount in Christianity. How is using multiple reliable secondary sources that don’t contradict each other in any way “synth”? Is it synth that sources say Jews use the term Har ha-Bayit? Drsmoo (talk) 19:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Contradiction is where information clashes, such as the Vatican and Palestinian Christians using Al-Aqsa Mosque; Pentecostal Christians Temple Mount. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:26, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Which we would need to clarify, which would therefore not be a summary but massively off-topic from the real subject: Al-Aqsa (congregational) mosque. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:30, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hahaha, templars. Dude. Did you really just go back to the crusades? Although, I guess in this particular conflict genre, two millenia is the blink of an eye. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:27, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Vatican does not use “Al-Aqsa Mosque” as their name for the site. Was that your impression? And the source above doesn’t even claim Palestinian Christians use that term as their name for the site. Btw, the whole scope of “Where Heaven and Earth Meet” is that the site is holy to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and gathering experts from the three religions to discuss its importance. Drsmoo (talk) 19:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, this is an article about the Al Aqsa Mosque congregational prayer building, and the space is contested at present between Jews and Muslims. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Vatican does not use “Al-Aqsa Mosque” as their name for the site. Was that your impression? And the source above doesn’t even claim Palestinian Christians use that term as their name for the site. Btw, the whole scope of “Where Heaven and Earth Meet” is that the site is holy to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and gathering experts from the three religions to discuss its importance. Drsmoo (talk) 19:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
@Drsmoo: please explain your reverts/moves of various “Masjid Al Aqsa” and “Farthest Mosque” redirects to this article? The sources here and at Temple Mount clearly support that these specific terms relate to the Temple Mount, and not to the southern building. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:45, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to hear about that as well (with reasons).Selfstudier (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- My understanding had been that Masjid al-Aqsa and the english term al-Aqsa Mosque were synonymous. It appears they are not, I'll revert. Drsmoo (talk) 00:13, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Related to this topic, I don't see any results in Google, or Books, or Scholar, for "National mosque of palestine". However, putting it in Google Books did bring up this result: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Youth_Citizenship_and_the_Politics_of_Be/sMjoBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=national%20mosque%20of%20palestine&pg=PT143& - "However, the mosque as a Palestinian national symbol is not inclusive of all groups and has not been taken up by Christian Palestinians. For example, when asked what the symbols of Palestine were for him, one Christian Palestinian man responded with strong emotion, "Bethlehem, Jerusalem and its Christian history. If it is only Al Aqsa mosque, it is disgusting for me."" Drsmoo (talk) 00:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- The critical point here is 'one man' - we don't subscribe to anecdotal information (and certainly not anecdotal sectarian venom) for good reasons ... and thankfully. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- And rather than make one casual interview to buttress a personal opinion, one should read widely, s starting with Manuel Musallam. Nishidani (talk) 08:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- An excellent example. Hillel Cohen (as quoted in note 27 in the current version of our Temple Mount article) explains this in a balanced way:
"One should bear in mind that since the emergence of nationalism in the Arab world, important schools have insisted on separation of religion and state. In addition, a degree of tension exists between al-Aqsa’s two aspects, as a national symbol uniting Palestinian Muslims and Christians, and al-Aqsa as an exclusively Muslim symbol. In other words, the intentions of Palestinians united under the banner of al-Aqsa are not all the same… For the Palestinians, al-Aqsa is a singular focal point of self-respect and religious destiny. This heightens their commitment to the site, without connection to their religious affiliation (Muslim or Christian) or level of religious belief and observance."
Onceinawhile (talk) 11:17, 24 June 2022 (UTC)- Drsmoo. Some sense of method, please. As to your latest edit above, it would be like someone citing Yeshayahu Leibowitz's condemnation of 'kotelatry' as proof Jews don't think the Western Wall important. Nishidani (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced. For 20 years now, the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" has been used on Wikipedia for only the mosque, not the entire Temple Mount. The prevalent Islamic term for the Temple Mount in academic literature has been for years "Al-Haram al-Sharif". This is the reason nobody called for disambiguation until recently. The following op-ed from the Jerusalem Post might shed a bit light on the matter: "Moreover, there has been a name change. The term “al-Haram al-Sharif” has all but disappeared, while “al-Aqsa Mosque” has become dominant. The Palestinian Authority’s denial that Jews have any connection to the Temple Mount or Jerusalem increases. Tayseer al-Tamimi, former chief justice of the PA Religious Court, said recently “the blessed Aqsa Mosque is Islamic and belongs to Muslims alone... and the Jews have no right to it... or the right to pray in any part of it.” And he added, “al-Aqsa Mosque includes all its courtyards... and specifically its western wall.” Wikipedia's editors should be able to tell the difference between reality and fashionable trends. Tombah (talk) 14:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Tombah: In a nutshell, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, WP:WINARS, and longevity on Wikipedia is not proof of veracity or accuracy. Wikipedia does not even make a claim to truth, WP:NOTTRUTH. Moreover, an op-ed will not shed light on anything, because opinion pieces are not reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- The reality behind the themes the op-ed is mentioning are properly explained by Yitzhak Reiter in his 2008 article quoted above. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- As an aside, the bit that is missing from Reiter's work is an assessment of 19th and 20th century sources. Not just the scholarly sources which set out the formal position clearly (Robinson, Le Strange, Palmer etc.). But also the Palestinian sources. Tombah suggested that the Islamic position that
“al-Aqsa Mosque includes all its courtyards... and specifically its western wall”
is a "fashionable trend". Yet exactly the same claim was made by Palestinians a century ago, as recorded in the Report of the Commission on the Palestine Disturbances of August 1929: Great Britain. Colonial Office (1930). Palestine Commission on the Disturbances of August, 1929. Colonial (Great Britain. Colonial Office). H.M. Stationery Office. – it includes repeated references to the Western Wall as the "Western Wall of the Mosque of Al-Aqsa". Onceinawhile (talk) 15:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)- It seems uncontroversial that many sources refer to the entire temple mount as the Mosque of Al-Aqsa or Al-Aqsa Mosque or something similar. So, these claims belong somewhere, perhaps in the article on the Qibli Mosque (by whatever name), citing these sources. Or alternatively they may be better in the Temple Mount article, again by whatever name, or perhaps the topic Al-Aqsa naming controversy even deserves a separate article. In any case, both the articles on the Temple Mount and the Qibli Mosque should contain or link to this content. The naming controversy is discussed in many sources and is encyclopedic.
- So this content belongs somewhere! But these articles themselves are not reliable sources, and so this content does not influence our choice of article names. This is a subtle point easily overlooked. Andrewa (talk) 15:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- As an aside, the bit that is missing from Reiter's work is an assessment of 19th and 20th century sources. Not just the scholarly sources which set out the formal position clearly (Robinson, Le Strange, Palmer etc.). But also the Palestinian sources. Tombah suggested that the Islamic position that
- The reality behind the themes the op-ed is mentioning are properly explained by Yitzhak Reiter in his 2008 article quoted above. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Tombah: In a nutshell, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, WP:WINARS, and longevity on Wikipedia is not proof of veracity or accuracy. Wikipedia does not even make a claim to truth, WP:NOTTRUTH. Moreover, an op-ed will not shed light on anything, because opinion pieces are not reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced. For 20 years now, the term "Al-Aqsa Mosque" has been used on Wikipedia for only the mosque, not the entire Temple Mount. The prevalent Islamic term for the Temple Mount in academic literature has been for years "Al-Haram al-Sharif". This is the reason nobody called for disambiguation until recently. The following op-ed from the Jerusalem Post might shed a bit light on the matter: "Moreover, there has been a name change. The term “al-Haram al-Sharif” has all but disappeared, while “al-Aqsa Mosque” has become dominant. The Palestinian Authority’s denial that Jews have any connection to the Temple Mount or Jerusalem increases. Tayseer al-Tamimi, former chief justice of the PA Religious Court, said recently “the blessed Aqsa Mosque is Islamic and belongs to Muslims alone... and the Jews have no right to it... or the right to pray in any part of it.” And he added, “al-Aqsa Mosque includes all its courtyards... and specifically its western wall.” Wikipedia's editors should be able to tell the difference between reality and fashionable trends. Tombah (talk) 14:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Drsmoo. Some sense of method, please. As to your latest edit above, it would be like someone citing Yeshayahu Leibowitz's condemnation of 'kotelatry' as proof Jews don't think the Western Wall important. Nishidani (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- An excellent example. Hillel Cohen (as quoted in note 27 in the current version of our Temple Mount article) explains this in a balanced way:
- And rather than make one casual interview to buttress a personal opinion, one should read widely, s starting with Manuel Musallam. Nishidani (talk) 08:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- The critical point here is 'one man' - we don't subscribe to anecdotal information (and certainly not anecdotal sectarian venom) for good reasons ... and thankfully. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Related to this topic, I don't see any results in Google, or Books, or Scholar, for "National mosque of palestine". However, putting it in Google Books did bring up this result: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Youth_Citizenship_and_the_Politics_of_Be/sMjoBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=national%20mosque%20of%20palestine&pg=PT143& - "However, the mosque as a Palestinian national symbol is not inclusive of all groups and has not been taken up by Christian Palestinians. For example, when asked what the symbols of Palestine were for him, one Christian Palestinian man responded with strong emotion, "Bethlehem, Jerusalem and its Christian history. If it is only Al Aqsa mosque, it is disgusting for me."" Drsmoo (talk) 00:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)