Indef block as a standard admin action, with more info on their talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:24, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Armatura
User who is submitting this request for enforcement
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
12 June 2022 Armatura makes the absurd claim that he can't be reverted and threatens to report another editor (Golden) for their previous history of disregarding Wikipedia policies. I am not exaggerating here. Armatura explicitly makes the claim that WP:DONTREVERTis a policy. I got asked by Golden to help figure out how to respond to Armatura here and determine where Golden might've misstepped (at least that's how I read the message). Instead, I decide to jump in and explain that (A) Armatura seems to gravely misunderstand the basic nature of Wikipedia's policies (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, etc.) (B) I don't like Armatura threatened to report a user over this incredibly minor content dispute (WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:CIR).
13 June 2022 Armatura responds by saying I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 (which is an absurd claim and completely unrelated to anything I said or was trying to do) and proceeds to explain how I fall short of his criteria. Needless to say, Armatura completely misses the point. (WP:IDHT)
14 June 2022 Skipping forward a bit, after our conversation Armatura decides to vague post about me to the Teahouse where Armatura asks What does a third person do, if a mentor appears to be abusing their role and harassing a third person in order to protect their protege? (For context, I'm Golden's mentor of sorts.) (WP:HARASS/WP:BATTLEGROUND)
18-20 June 2022 Armatura comes to my talk page to complain about Golden. I explain I don't see any issues with Golden's response. Armatura offers me reading material about protegee-mentor relationships which I didn't ask for. I respond confronting Armatura with what he said about me at the Teahouse and Rosguill's talk page. Armatura denies he was talking about me (just blatantly lying at that point). (WP:CIV)
28 June 2022 A user (Abrvagl) brings forward pretty basic response to the concerns Armatura copy/pasted at WP:BLP/N and Talk:2020 Ghazanchetsots Cathedral shelling. There is so much going on with how Armatura replied in that diff. He questions how a user took only 6 months to learn Wikipedia's policies and improve their English. Then he responds by saying Abrvagl was being passive aggressive I-am-not-saying-anything-but-kind-of-openly-implying-things-nonetheless but says he won't respond that way (despite the fact he just did) while ignoring literally everything that user had to say to him. (WP:IDHT/WP:BATTLEGROUND)
It's completely unrelated to the AA2-topic area, but Armatura's article George Klein (physician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was a copyvio that had to be cleaned up by Diannaa. (For the record, this edit was copyvio as well and is still up.) A user of more than 15 years experience should not need WP:COPYVIO explained to them.
My conclusion? Competence is required. Nothing less than a topic-ban for AA2 and a final warning about the copyvio or an indef block as an admin action would be sufficient for him here. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 18:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dennis Brown: I absolutely considered adding the template, but it would've been incredibly WP:POINTy. The point of the template is to ensure the person knows about the sanctions. What would be the point for someone who has {{ds/aware}} on their user page? –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 02:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Dennis Brown: To be honest, I really just think an indef as a regular admin action is the right move here. I could have requested as much on AN or AN/I, but no one likes commenting on these kinds of reports over there (well, besides the people involved of course). I mean, you'd think Armatura would be on his best behavior given this thread, but I mean look at this diff. In response to a user (Golden) asking them to provide a list of reliable sources that use his preferred term to describe a pretty sensitive topic, Armatura just says that's a logical fallacy (?), and it's on the Internet. That's just.. so far removed from how we do things here. –MJL‐Talk‐☖ 05:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Armatura
Thanks for opening this discussion, MJL. I will go one by one through the points you have raised.
Armatura claims he can't be reverted. You are referring to this. I didn't say I cannot be reverted, but I questioned why and based on what I was reverted, and I see a problem in using reverting as method of operation (I rarely use it).
Armatura claims that WP:DONTREVERT is a policy. I am yet to learn the pragamtic difference between policy, guidelines, and essays on Wikipedia by heart, that is true. I regard them as code of exemplary conduct, and if an (non humorous) essey says do not X,Y,Z, I sincerely try not doing X,Y, or Z. I was genuinely surprised that you put such a difference in between these terms, and I expressed by bewilderment on a neutral senior user's page.
I got asked by Golden, I decide to jump in. Your emotional jumping in felt to me that you had a go at me, you did not sound neutral to me, hence I asked a neutral user, who, while explaining my mistake in a peaceful manner (for which I was thankful), agreed that you did get more testy with me than would have been ideal. I did explain why I did not consider your intervention neutral, you may say these are my subjective feelings, but so are yours. You blamed me with threatening another user (I agree I could sound friendlier when I was questioning Golden's revert), but this felt like you were threatening me and putting an ultimatum in front of me (not a peaceful conflict resolution method, I hope you agree).
Armatura says I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 I explained above why I did not like the tone of your explanation, I believe mentorship should never work like that.
Vague post about me to the Teahouse - Armatura asks what to do if a mentor appears to be abusing their role? Not knowing what wiki mentorship is and the code of conduct of it, I asked in Teahouse those questions, and what I should do if I think boundaries are being stretched. I did not mention your name and did not report you anywhere, the question was for my own learning.
Armatura comes to my talk page... Armatura offers me reading material I came to your page following the advice given in Teahouse. After seeing you failed to see a problem when there is a problem with mentee's edits, I hoped you may reflect after reading academic material on well-described negative aspects of mentor-mentee relationship.
Armatura blatantly lying. Is this WP:CIV from you? My answer did not deny it was about you, I said "If you associate yourself with some of the things I asked about in TeaHouse, perhaps there has been some reflection after cooling down", meaning that I was talking about you and that I was happy you had some reflection on the points I made to you. You snapped at me again, hence I decided to leave the non-productive conversation peacefully, with a compliment in your address.
Compliment was genuine, by the way, I am aware of your contributions on Scots Wikipedia and things you say there on your userpage that you really love helping people and that you will not be afraid to stand-up to injustice deserve admiration. But, I don't think you are ideal, and I don't welcome your taking sides in AA2 debates, despite repeatedly declaring no bias. You defend problematic editors: One is blocked for sockpupetry, one is doing questionable edits (like this) while in probation after recent block for sockpuppetry]. Another on, recently warned for edit warringcame to my talk page with seemingly reserved by stil unfriendly tone, "if I assume good faith" is never a good idea for starting conversation with a stranger, on Wiki or off Wiki, and wanted him to feel what it would sound like if I was him and he was me. The number of quoted policies sounded wikilawyering to me, for the pattern of English writing - we have previously seen disruptive coordinated editing from certain users and this language difference was quite striking, so it got my attention, check his previous posts and see for yourself.
claims there are current enwiki editors still actively involved in offwiki coordination This is not true. Everyone can read with their own eyes the memo on my page: A case of pro-Azerbaijani off-wiki coordination similar to WP:EEML have been revealed on Russian Wikipedia in 2010, with some of the current pro-Azerbaijani editors of English Wikipedia on the mailing list.
Outing I did not know anything about wikipolicis of outing at the time, and that such concerning behaviour should have been reported to Arbcom. I never crossed that boundarie again, once it was explained, hence the IBAN was rescinded and annulled in due course. --Armatura (talk)
Even though my account is 15 years old, I have not spent as much time on Wikipedia as much you think I do, and do not have experience you keep assuming I have - see my activity over years and that will be clear. I am grateful to all users who helped me to improve George Klein article I started, apologies for initial mistakes, I am yet to check what wiki copyvivo is and with what sauce it has to be eaten with. Best wishes, --Armatura (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Response to comments
MJL and Dennis Brown, thank you for your comments. Have you looked into the behaviour of the users I mentioned I had disputes with, did you see me having problems with users who do not abuse Wikipedia policies? Both Golden and Solavirum intentionally abused Wikipedia, by edit warring, by using multiple accounts, by owning the AA articles I share an interest in, by hostile treatment towards me from the moment I re-started editing in 2020 after a long hiatus. Not knowing exactly where / how to complain, how to deal with subthreshold tendentious editing, the Wikipedia policies well enough to stand up against wikilawyering - these were things that made me sometimes irritated, to the point of sounding unfriendly. My 15 years is being brought repetitively as an argument against me - please have a look at the unequal spread of my activity since registration, have a look at my other interactions and you will see why I am not the the “established user who bullies others right and left”. --Armatura (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Nableezy
The whole point of the aware template is to establish awareness. I think the user is clearly aware and the request for enforcement should be considered on its merits and not dismissed on the technicality that the template is on their user page and not their user talk page. I have not looked at and do not intend to look at those merits, but it shouldnt be ignored without examining the merits. nableezy - 03:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by Szmenderowiecki
First, we are not a bureaucracy. Secondly, a cursory look at AE archives reveals that a report against the user was filed in January 2021 (withdrawn). Armatura additionally commented in WP:AA2-related AE reports in November 2021 and in June 2022. According to awareness rules, a user is aware if
In the last twelve months, the editor has participated in any process about the area of conflict at arbitration requests or arbitration enforcement (point 4). This clearly happened here. Please proceed with the analysis on the merits.
This comment does not endorse anyone's statements, it's just to make sure that the AE complaint is not dismissed on a technicality. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Armatura
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
Armatura had not been given a DS notice since Aug of 2020, so we kind of have to do that in order to consider sanctions for actions after this notice is given. That doesn't mean an admin can't sanction using standard admin authority for any general bad behavior, but we can't DS sanction if they haven't been notified in the last 12 months. They did add the notification, which is odd, but I stand by giving the template given the circumstances. I have not looked at the merits at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't looked at the merits either yet, but the user has had - since January 2021 - a notice on their userpage stating "This user is aware of the discretionary sanction topic area(s): Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts. He should not be given alerts for those areas.". If a user with that template on their userpage was brought to AE and then actually tried to claim that the filing was invalid because they hadn't received an alert, they'd be told "No, because you specifically asked not to be given one", so that should be the case in all circumstances. Black Kite (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is looking like a WP:TE issue, broader than just AE issues. Not sure what to do here. Really, the only question is, is this a case for indef block, or is there some hope? After a lot of consideration, I'm of the mind to just assume they were aware by virtue of adding that notice to their page, and proceed, although I'm not sure we need AE authority to take action here anyway. Notification isn't a get out of jail free card. Again, is this person a net positive or net negative for the encyclopedia? I'm leaning net negative. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. If this was a new user, it would be easy to slap their wrist a bit and monitor, but the gaslighting (last example in the original report) and passive-aggressively complaining about people being passive-agressive, and other examples of behavior from an editor that has been here over a decade is hard to figure out a solution for, other than using the ban hammer. I don't see a clear line violation, but I do see a pattern of behavior that is incompatible with Wikipedia, or any collaborative project, so again, this may be a standard admin action thing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:10, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]