Cukrakalnis (talk | contribs) (→Polish-Lithuanian identity: Reply) Tags: Reply Source |
GizzyCatBella (talk | contribs) (→Polish-Lithuanian identity: Reply) Tags: Reply Source |
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::@[[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] All those sources we have right now are from modern [[Lithuania]]. Can you find an English language source by non-Lithuanian author? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 23:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC) |
::@[[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] All those sources we have right now are from modern [[Lithuania]]. Can you find an English language source by non-Lithuanian author? - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 23:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Yes [[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] ([[User talk:Cukrakalnis|talk]]) 15:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC) |
:::Yes [[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] ([[User talk:Cukrakalnis|talk]]) 15:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Cukrakalnis|Cukrakalnis]] I reverted you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antanas_Mackevi%C4%8Dius&diff=1096472623&oldid=1096449741 here]. Read my edit summary. Can you give the users (you are going '''alone''' against 3 users right now) the quote and page number from the publication you have found? @[[User:Marcelus|Marcelus]] and @[[User:Piotrus|Piotrus]] please consider it. - <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:#40">'''GizzyCatBella'''</span>]][[User talk:GizzyCatBella|<span style="color:transparent;text-shadow:0 0 0 red;font-size:80%">🍁</span>]]</span></small> 17:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC) |
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New Provocation?
I would like to give User:Marekchelsea and User:Romuald Wróblewski the "benefit of the doubt" by kindly explaining their recent edits concerning the article on this talk page. That might prevent edit warring and further disruption of this article. And do consider that this is English Wikipedia and please at least try to get your geography correct. For starters you've also not only got his place of death wrong, but his place of birth wrong too. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Such "edits" without proper edit summary and rationale on talk, hardly can be call constructive ones. Restored previous version + expansion. M.K. (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- MarekChelsea, you changed the article title to Antoni Mackiewicz today [1] If you are convinced that this article's title is wrong, you have several venues of protest. Merely changing it without discussion, tho, is considered bad form here - that should only be done with completely uncontroversial article name changes. The primary venue for article name changes is WP:Requested moves. If you find that hard to use, you can post a message at Wikipedia:Help desk. Novickas (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
- User:Kimodin, an edit summary "don't hurry" is not an explanation for your recent two edits [2] [3]. If you are suggesting that you need time to explain your edits, I suggest that you take the time to organize your thoughts and rationale first, and then make the edits, not the other way around. If you need to consult with someone first for some reasons, do that, then make your edit. At this point I think it would be more helpful to discuss it here instead. Thanks. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Name
A review of sources suggests, tentatively, that Lithuanian name is more widespread than Polish in English language sources, although the difference is slight. I see no particular need to move the article. It would be useful to find a source discussing the name he used himself. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Date of death
Article in Lithuanian Wikipedia states death date as 28 December, while English Wikipedia states death date as 16 December. I have checked one of the sources (no. 2 in the article, in Lithuanian) and it also states 28 December. So I guess there's a mistake in current article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phx798 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
External links modified
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Polish-Lithuanian identity
@Marcelus and Cukrakalnis, I have trouble sourcing him being %100 Polish-Lithuanian, he commanded his troops in Lithuanian tongue. Can we chat about it, get the issue resolved here? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Resolution is an unlikely solution, because Marcelus showed his true intentions here, by changing Antanas Mackevičius pl.wiki article's first line Lithuanian Roman Catholic priest to Polish Roman Catholic priest. Actions speak louder than words, in all of the various senses which such a statement applies, especially to trying to name Lithuanians that were engaged in many military actions at the head of Lithuanian rebels in the Uprising of 1863 in the Polish language, which Marcelus wants. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I’m sure he has his reasons, and his edits are in good faith. Let’s gather some sources. What do we have so far? - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:30, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Antoni Mackiewicz first language was Polish, he gave testimony to the Russian authorities in Polish. They were published in Antanas Mackevičius: laiškai ir parodymai, Vilnius 1988. I think that qualifies him as Polish-Lithuanian. Marcelus (talk) 07:19, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus Can we get a page number, quote etc. to the above? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus - Which one? Is this the same book? GizzyCatBella🍁 07:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @GizzyCatBell Yes that's the book, I made screenshots of relevant pages: [4] Marcelus (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus, thanks. True, that’s Polish. You might mention that in the article and reference it. So we know he spoke both, Lithuanian and Polish. How do we know that Polish was his mother tongue and not Lithuanian? - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because he made his testimony in Polish, not in Lithuanian. Marcelus (talk) 09:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that is most likely the case but that might also be our WP:OR, I’m not sure if we can assume that ourselves, you know? Perhaps we should ask for comments from others. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus why is he here Polish and here Polish-Lithuanian? - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- But you are correct Marcelus, I believe now that he could be referred to as Polish-Lithuanian considering him being bi-lingual and coming from the Commonwealth. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis What do you think? Is that okay? If you disagree we could ask for input form other users.- GizzyCatBella🍁 10:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree. It's just a letter to a singular Russian officer, I don't understand how that would be relevant to determining the language he would have considered his own. Polish was most likely chosen for this letter, because Mackevičius might have known that colonel Bozherianov knew Polish but no Lithuanian. Besides, drawing conclusions from first-hand material (conclusions for which I have seen no second-hand WP:RS) is textbook-definition WP:OR. Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus - folks lets RfC that. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree. It's just a letter to a singular Russian officer, I don't understand how that would be relevant to determining the language he would have considered his own. Polish was most likely chosen for this letter, because Mackevičius might have known that colonel Bozherianov knew Polish but no Lithuanian. Besides, drawing conclusions from first-hand material (conclusions for which I have seen no second-hand WP:RS) is textbook-definition WP:OR. Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis What do you think? Is that okay? If you disagree we could ask for input form other users.- GizzyCatBella🍁 10:01, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- But you are correct Marcelus, I believe now that he could be referred to as Polish-Lithuanian considering him being bi-lingual and coming from the Commonwealth. - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because he made his testimony in Polish, not in Lithuanian. Marcelus (talk) 09:36, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus, thanks. True, that’s Polish. You might mention that in the article and reference it. So we know he spoke both, Lithuanian and Polish. How do we know that Polish was his mother tongue and not Lithuanian? - GizzyCatBella🍁 09:28, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @GizzyCatBell Yes that's the book, I made screenshots of relevant pages: [4] Marcelus (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus - Which one? Is this the same book? GizzyCatBella🍁 07:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Marcelus Can we get a page number, quote etc. to the above? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
@Marcelus and @Cukrakalnis folks seriously, stop foolish reverts. We aren't going to get anywhere this way. The last thing we want is some administrator seeing it (administrators close your eyes or even better, go away! We’ll handle it 😀) Folks, please compose an RfC. @Marcelus do you want to do it since it is you initiating the change? GizzyCatBella🍁 21:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Why we need RfC for something that obvious? Mackiewicz clearly had Polish-Lithuanian identity, he is exemplary of this self-identification Marcelus (talk) 08:25, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella🍁, I am going to stop myself (at least temporarily) from reverting Marcelus' latest edit [5], but not because it's in any way justified, but because a 24-hour block (or even worse, longer...) for edit-warring is very unappealing. The biggest problem here is not Marcelus' opinion, but that he is breaking Wiki rules of WP:Verifiability - not a single source out of the five say that Mackevičius was Polish-Lithuanian, all of them say he was Lithuanian. What Marcelus is doing here, is 100% against Wiki rules, which is the reason for my reverts. Furthermore, January Uprising is a misnomer in the context of Lithuania, because there was no uprising in Lithuania in January 1863, only later.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think you need a source for something that obvious, which is also well described in the rest of the article. Also "January Uprising" is the name of the uprising, I doesn't mean that all the fighting occured in January Marcelus (talk) 12:40, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- But folks, how it is this going to be resolved otherwise? We need an input from the community. You're both entrenched on opposite sides with a temporary ceasefire? Come on folks. Do the RfC. (If I don’t see it happening in a few days, I’ll do it myself) - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think you need a source for something that obvious, which is also well described in the rest of the article. Also "January Uprising" is the name of the uprising, I doesn't mean that all the fighting occured in January Marcelus (talk) 12:40, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support calling him Polish-Lithuanian. Seems like a good compromise and fair description for that time and place. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella🍁, I am going to stop myself (at least temporarily) from reverting Marcelus' latest edit [5], but not because it's in any way justified, but because a 24-hour block (or even worse, longer...) for edit-warring is very unappealing. The biggest problem here is not Marcelus' opinion, but that he is breaking Wiki rules of WP:Verifiability - not a single source out of the five say that Mackevičius was Polish-Lithuanian, all of them say he was Lithuanian. What Marcelus is doing here, is 100% against Wiki rules, which is the reason for my reverts. Furthermore, January Uprising is a misnomer in the context of Lithuania, because there was no uprising in Lithuania in January 1863, only later.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Just go with what WP:RS say, that's the solution, there's no need for RfC or any alternatives, we just need to follow Wikipedia rules. Nothing more, nothing less, arguing between Wikipedians about something that sources already tell us is not something they should be really doing.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:53, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis All those sources we have right now are from modern Lithuania. Can you find an English language source by non-Lithuanian author? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis I reverted you here. Read my edit summary. Can you give the users (you are going alone against 3 users right now) the quote and page number from the publication you have found? @Marcelus and @Piotrus please consider it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:02, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Cukrakalnis All those sources we have right now are from modern Lithuania. Can you find an English language source by non-Lithuanian author? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:39, 3 July 2022 (UTC)