Judiciary of Poland
- ...
that in Poland a mean court judge processed almost four cases per day?Source: 14.38 million estimate given by GUS; 10,000 judge estimate can be seen in table, divide this per 365 per WP:CALC, which is in the text- ALT1: ... that in Poland the courts processed 14.38 million cases in 2020 while having fewer than 10,000 judges? Source: Same as above, just not divided
- ALT2:
that the ECHR found three of five chambers of the Supreme Court, Poland's top court, not to be properly constituted within the meaning of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights?Source: See "Partisan control of the National Council of the Judiciary" part, last para - ALT3: ...
that the Constitutional Tribunal, Poland's top court, ruled it was not a court?Source: Notes from Poland - ALT4: ...
that the State Tribunal, the Polish court tasked with trial of the highest politicians, only convened three times in the past 40 years?Source: In text - Reviewed: User:Szmenderowiecki/Sort of recognised contributions
- Comment: Please refer to the (exhaustive AFAIK) list of all of my DYK reviews and submissions for the purposes of QPQ. Feel free to add an entry to the list once the nomination is processed and (hopefully) accepted. 4 cases per day may be substituted by 1,500 per year, as verified here. ALT3 could actually go to April 1 if possible, though the problem might be that the ruling (unfortunately) exists and that the argument relies on the technicality of the Polish Constitution described in the lead (about tribunals in general).
5x expanded by Szmenderowiecki (talk). Self-nominated at 00:53, 22 March 2022 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting:
QPQ: - You need to link the specific review that you're claiming credit for
Overall: I don't think that ALT0 checks out because you don't have figures for the "average (median?) court judge", but are just dividing the cases by the number of judges. I don't consider ALT4 to be interesting because due to the small number of top politicians, it doesn't make sense for the court to convene a lot. For ALT2, the precise findings were that these courts were not "established by law", mainly because of irregular appointments. See here for an explanation of the exact provision and how it's applied by the ECHR. See below for another version. For ALT3, I think it could be reworded but is confusing as it stands (it would be clearer with "itself", but still confusing). (t · c) buidhe 06:12, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- ALT2a: ... that the European Court of Human Rights ruled that three of the five chambers of Poland's top court were not "independent and impartial tribunals"?
- I have to respectufully disagree with most of your arguments.
- ALT2a: ... that the European Court of Human Rights ruled that three of the five chambers of Poland's top court were not "independent and impartial tribunals"?
- As for ALT0/ALT1, the quote being verified is translated from Polish as: "Polish judges (there are about 10,000 of them) process approx. 15 million cases, which means that an average [mean, not median] judge processes about 1,500 cases per year," which was verified using 2018 data. I've used 2020 data and the same methodology. It was fact-checked as true back in 2020. Yes, it is a number of cases divided by judges (with all the problems that appear with measuring mean not median values, but this does not invalidate the hook as such, as I properly state that I calculate an average. I do have that data.
- I don't see what's confusing about ALT3. Granted, it is apparently contradictory, but that's the point of DYKs (be
short, punchy, catchy, and likely to draw the readers in to wanting to read the article – as long as they don't misstate the article content
). Additionally, I don't actually see how I can reword it using "itself". Will you propose the rewording for this one, considering the article to which this is sourced? - ALT2a is OK, but I'd consider other options first. (Modified because the relevant part is not not being established by law but their independence 18:46, 6 June 2022 (UTC))
- ALT4 is at the low end of my priorities, so I'll drop this one to expedite the process.
- Re QPQ requirement, that's not my reading of the QPQ rules. It merely says that I must
review one other nomination (unrelated to you)
and provide proof of that for examination. The full registry is available there, with my submissions reviewed (6) and my reviews (18). How is that not sufficient? Besides, I don't want to accidentally duplicate the QPQ claims, which AFAIK are not logged anywhere (unlike credits for reviews). If the newest review must be claimed for QPQ and I'm misreading the policy (not you), take my Template:Did you know nominations/Vitamin A review. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:12, 26 March 2022 (UTC)- I do not know about Polish, but in English many people are going to see "average" and think it means "median" in this context. It would be clearer to talk about the mean number of cases handled per judge. Not to mention, each day is unclear whether we're talking about all days or working days...
- Looking at ALT3 and not knowing the details of this case, I wouldn't know "what is it". Admittedly, right now I can't think of a good rewrite.
- The reason most DYK participants link which DYK hook they are counting for QPQ is because otherwise it's impossible to tell if they claim the same review twice (I've done this by accident). (t · c) buidhe 21:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, got it. The relevant ruling (summary) for ALT3 is here. In Polish (see full case here). The funny thing is, the English version says that the trial must happen in a
tribunal established by law
, while the Polish version talks ofsąd ustanowiony ustawą
. The ruling heavily relies on the technical distinction between what the Constitution calls a "court" and a "tribunal". The ruling basically says that the ECHR did not properly analyse the legal position of the Tribunal, and, since the Constitutional Tribunal is only a judicial organ but does not determine the outcome of cases like most courts do, it does not administer justice and therefore is not a tribunal/court within Article 6, which they argue only applies to the courts which administer justice. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 08:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, got it. The relevant ruling (summary) for ALT3 is here. In Polish (see full case here). The funny thing is, the English version says that the trial must happen in a
Second opinion requested as this review has stalled for a month and there have been some changes by Micga to the article in the meantime, which might impact the new assessment. Consider him as a co-nom to this nomination due to these changes.Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
In response to the new review request above, I shall review this. I shall do a full review to familiarise myself with the material (it is a long article, anyway). So no disrespect to Buidhe. Storye book (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- ?
- Neutral:
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- ?
- Interesting:
QPQ: Done. |
- These points affect DYK
Too many paragraphs have no citations at the end. We cannot pass this DYK until that matter is resolved.Earwig is not working for me at the moment, so I am accepting in good faith that it's plagiarism-free.Re ALT1: Please give us a link for the numbers in this hook. I don't believe that I can accept the hook without an actual citation (linked or offline) which gives those particular numbers.(ETA: Citation 118 "Dlaczego sądy są tak bardzo odległe od obywateli i działają przewlekle" covers this)Re ALT2: That is an interesting hook: I would favour that hook if you could please add a citation to the end of the last paragraph in the section, which you refer to.(Update: I have struck ALT2 because the hook is not written out in the above form in the article, making it too difficult for the general reader to check it out).
- Points which do not affect DYK
- I do think that the article would be more readable and comprehensible if it contained more summaries and fewer detailed lists. Readers who really want to know the long lists of details would consult the sources, anyway. However this point does not affect DYK.
- I have copyedited the first half of the article, but I did not do the rest. It is not in a bad condition language-wise, and I did resolve the disambig links. This does not affect DYK.
When the issues regarding the missing citations, and the hooks, are resolved, this nominations should be good to go. Storye book (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
- Storye book, thanks for the review. I haven't been editing the article for quite a while, and I see that some substantial changes were made since I tried to make an article in order, but I couldn't. Btw, I will also work on the shortened infographic as National Appeal Chamber's rulings cannot be appealed to administrative courts, but Adobe Illustrator won't let me correct it without major disruption. Micga is pinged as courtesy.
- Re ALT1: the source is Rocznik Statystyczny Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej 2021, p. 165 for caseload, p. 164 for number of judges (it is available online). It is also (I hope) very well summarised in the table with the salaries, where the number of judges is given by each category.
- Re ALT2: the citation is to three ECHR cases. Now the information might become outdated once the bill demolishing the Disciplinary Chamber becomes law, but that should be clear in a week or two.
- Re long lists: I also think that they generally belong in their respective articles, but since we don't have them yet, they will stay in the text for now. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki:.
- * Thank you for the update. There are still two points to deal with.
- * (1)
There are still too many citation-needed templates on the article. We need to have all paragraphs and all bulleted points cited before we can pass this nom. (If this were a light-hearted subject, then perhaps we might not need to be so careful about citations, e.g. for every bullet point, but law is a serious matter. We have to have all facts cited, for DYK). - * (2) Re ALT2: This fact occurs in section "Capture of the Constitutional Tribunal", end of first paragraph. The citation for the hook facts at the end of that para ("ETPC: Udział dublera w składzie Trybunału narusza prawo do sądu") is fine, with Google Translate. But you need to write out the hook in the same words in that place, because our readers will not be able to find it using a page-search. You have not even mentioned article 6 in the article's text.
- (I am not asking you to summarise chart-lists. But some of the sections contain lists within paragraphs or under bullet points. The important word in the article is "judiciary", so we need focus on and prioritise just the main points about the judiciary, e.g. to know their position and their responsibilities, and summarise within that framework. For example, lists of bulleted responsibilities can be summarised, making the article easier to read Note: this point is not necessary for DYK.) Storye book (talk) 09:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since I originally intended this as a pre-GA nomination, I will address all these points anyway, to the best I can. I will be working on the article for the next couple of hours. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:27, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also, re ALT2, the relevant sentence is this one: "The Strasbourg court agreed, declaring the Disciplinary Chamber, the Chamber of Extraordinary Control and Public Affairs and the Civil Chamber not to be independent and impartial tribunals established by law", with three sources given to each chamber (each of the rulings are now final). The sentence you provided is indeed in the text but I don't intend to make a hook based on it. The Constitutional Tribunal hook is in ALT3, but it was struck for whatever reason by buidhe (who said it was confusing). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you . Since you are working on it, please may I suggest creating a clear overall pattern or or overview framework for the article. My experience of reading it so far has been a feeling of drowning in detail, for which there was no overall framework to arrange it all in context. One way to correct this is to imagine that you are writing it for a young, intelligent teenager who can understand explanations but who initially knows nothing at all. You don't need to be patronising to do this - just start with a few simple sentences giving an overview of the situation of the judiciary, e.g. (putting it simply) what is the purpose of their job, how are they supposed to do that job, what difficulties stand in their way, and so on. To maintain this clarity throughout the article, you would need to summarise a lot of the detail, then that detail can be made available in links or citations. I'm not suggesting that you do those things in exactly that way, but the principle is that the article should be clear, concise and to the point, and not bogged down with distracting detail. I am going to the trouble of writing this because I think the article subject is worth the hard work of improving it. It is an important subject. I repeat that this suggestion does not affect DYK. Storye book (talk) 16:27, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- Update: Thank you, Micga and Szmenderowiecki for improvements that you have made on the article in the past few days. Please let me know when you are ready for me to give the article another DYK update. Storye book (talk) 07:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Storye book, I have condensed the article, as you've proposed, and split the common court section (the huge one) into a separate article, so the amount of text went from 64K characters to 52K characters. Citation needed tags have been addressed either by adding refs or by making text references to the articles of the Constitution, or the relevant laws, or (in one case) to a dedicated article about a crisis within the Constitutional Tribunal.
- There is one hook that you might find interesting, and it is this:
- ALT5 ... that while there is little variation in the approval of the Polish court system in general among the Polish electorate, the support for the Constitutional Tribunal is split along partisan lines? (See: newest poll from March 2022)
- but I don't insist on it and you can promote the one you consider to be more interesting (particularly since it seems to be about the same thing in the US, where the Supreme Court is politicised while lower courts aren't subject to that much debate). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Szmenderowiecki for the expansion, the update and the ALT3. I shall have to check all these out later, because this is Platinum Jubilee Week in the UK, and most of us here are somewhat distracted by it, in various ways. I'll try to look at it later today or tomorrow, Monday at the latest. If by Monday you think I've forgotten, please ping me. Thanks for your patience. Storye book (talk) 10:32, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Update: I have started to take a fresh look at this, since you revised the article. ALT2 is now redundant, since that hook is not mentioned in the above form in the article, making it impossible for the general reader to check it out. If you still want ALT2 as one of the choices, then please write it out in its above form, in the article, with its citation(s) next to it, and let us know. Until then I shall be considering ALT5. I don't have time to check out ALT5 and read through the article in full today; it will have to be tomorrow, Monday. Storye book (talk) 10:46, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- I beg to disagree. ALT2 sentence (the paragraph that starts with "In addition to that, several judges and lawyers..." is still there and no one did anything to it, so in fact the general reader is able to verify it. The only difference is that I do not name all chambers by name. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- The problem from the viewpoint of DYK is that the general reader will use search terms taken from the hook to find its facts in the article. I don't think there are any phrases that we can take from the hook, which are exactly repeated in that paragraph. After you directed me to that paragraph, I had difficulty matching the exact or full meaning of the hook in that parapgraph, even with the understanding that the hook is rephrased there. This is a long and complex article, so we cannot assume that the reader who has just clicked on the hook has yet read any of the rest of the article. So they are searching "in the dark" for a matching phrase or word from the hook.
- I beg to disagree. ALT2 sentence (the paragraph that starts with "In addition to that, several judges and lawyers..." is still there and no one did anything to it, so in fact the general reader is able to verify it. The only difference is that I do not name all chambers by name. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Update: Thank you, Micga and Szmenderowiecki for improvements that you have made on the article in the past few days. Please let me know when you are ready for me to give the article another DYK update. Storye book (talk) 07:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- You, as an expert on the subject, clearly know what it all means, and can easily comprehend that paragraph's implications. I, who have (so far) read the previous incarnation of the article and have a rough idea of the hook facts, still cannot share your deeper understanding. I need the exact hook copied exactly into that paragraph, with its appropriate citation(s) next to it. You don't necessarily have to replace any of the existing wording with the hook wording. You could, for example, say: "in other words" - hook wording - citation. OK, that's repetitious from your point of view, but to a general reader it's clarification. Please be patient with this request. If you want ALT2 to be one of our choices with the text remaining as it is, and it gets promoted, it would be thrown out of prep for sure, and we would then have to put the hook wording in anyway, to get ALT2 passed. Please be patient, I am just trying to get this nomination accepted and passed. Storye book (talk) 09:51, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
I am now starting to read through the article. I'll add points here, as I find them, and will let you know when I've finished this task. I shall copyedit as I go (minor copyediting by the reviewer does not affect DYK). Storye book (talk) 16:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (1) First impressions: a massive improvement in structure and clarity. Congratulations on the bits I've read so far. One issue found: 3rd para of Supreme court section, beginning "Because of the universally". That is actually a correctly-constructed sentence ... I think .. but it is such a gloriously entangled set of over-arched clauses, that it is more of a hindrance to understanding than an aid. I suggest that you split it into several sentences, for clarity's sake. Storye book (talk) 10:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (2) If you are using a two-word phrase as an adjective, then it is usual practice to join those two words with a hyphen (you will see an example of that in this sentence). I'm correcting all the ones that I find in the article. Just letting you know. Storye book (talk) 10:42, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (3) Re para beginning: "The Supreme Court is led by". In formal English, the parenthesis that includes the "etc." at the end of the para would be considered undisciplined, partly because "etc." can perhaps include anything - even innuendo. In formal English, you would normally replace that last bracketed bit with something like: "for example, a lack of independence of judges, or unnecessarily slow decisions on cases". I'll let you correct this one. Storye book (talk) 10:53, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (4) It's "embroiled in", not "embroiled into". If you imagine substituting the word "entangled", then it's easier to get the syntax right (I have corrected this one). Storye book (talk) 10:58, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (5) You need a citation at the end of the first para of the Administrative courts section, and at the end of the first para of the State tribunal section. Links to other articles are not sufficient, because we cannot use WP as a citation.Storye book (talk) 15:31, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- (6) I am now looking at the Staff section, and finding more missing citations. Please do a page search for "citation needed", throughout the article (there may be more added later). As previously mentioned, links to WP are not sufficient for a citation. Storye book (talk) 16:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Note to self: I have checked the article as far as and including the Judges sitting in the tribunals section. I shall continue reading through the article later. Storye book (talk) 16:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re citation needed tags, I believe that literal translations from the articles of the Constitution do not need additional cites, because otherwise I will be forced to literally put the ref to the Constitution of Poland. I think it is pointless, because I explicitly point to the article of the Constitution, and fortunately the Polish constitution isn't written in the 18th-century poetic language of some out-of-touch intellectuals :). I am not speaking of some interpretations of the Constitution, which do need to be supplied with the citation.
- Re hook: I also don't agree with this one. So long as the hook is verifiable, mentioned in text and appropriately cited (WP:DYK, point 3), it's all right. It really doesn't have to be literally mentioned, the thing to consider is whether the hook distorts the meaning of the sentence it comes from. I am ready to discuss, I just don't think that not being immediately able to find it using Ctrl+F because of paraphrasing is a valid reason to reject it.
- Other than that, I tried to implement your remarks and I'm looking forward to further suggestions. Thanks for the corrections you've made. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:46, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
@Szmenderowiecki: Thank you for your response. I won't get into discussion about the hook yet, because I still have to finish going through the article, and that is a long job. When I've done that, I'll get back to the matter of the hook. What I will say, now, is that my point about the hook is not about my own opinion or about whether I agree with you. It's about what will get through DYK and what will be thrown out of prep. But I'll discuss that later. Storye book (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Micga and Storye book:, I believe we might have to suspend the nomination because large changes are being introduced to the parts of the article already reviewed. I myself am losing track of them, and some of them introduce unsourced fragments to the article. I'm simply reluctant to revert them (which I've already done on some separate occasions, in different places) so as not to appear to be asserting ownership the article. We need to resolve them. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 00:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, Szmenderowiecki, I agree with you on that. When or if Micga tells us they have stopped editing, at least for the duration of DYK, we can start again here, if that is what you want to do. Storye book (talk) 09:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Update: @ Szmenderowiecki. I have checked the talkpage of the disruptive editor, and it appears that they have a history of disruptive editing, unwarranted page moves, refusing to discuss on the talk page, and not giving edit summaries - and they were temporarily blocked last year. So I don't think we are going to get a resolution in the normal manner. If they don't get blocked again soon, then I suggest that we wait until the current major-editing session ends, then replace the entire article with the last previous version of the article that you approve of. We can then put back any of those edits that you agree with. I don't believe that this recourse would be ownership on your part. It would be salvaging an article from disruptive edits. Storye book (talk) 10:00, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- @ Admin. Please note that this nomination is temporarily suspended, due to current major changes in the article which are beyond the control of the nominator and reviewer. It is hoped that we may be able to resume this nomination in due course - so please don't close it down yet. Storye book (talk) 09:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Storye book, Szmenderowiecki, it looks like the last of the extensive article changes were completed on June 7. How soon will you be ready to resume work here? BlueMoonset (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I believe that I'd need a few hours for that. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Storye book, Szmenderowiecki, it looks like the last of the extensive article changes were completed on June 7. How soon will you be ready to resume work here? BlueMoonset (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki: I believe that the only practicable way to resolve the unhelpful edits would be to delete the article and immediately replace it with this last edit by Szmenderowiecki. That way, we will know where we are. Then I can continue my checking through it for DYK, and you can continue to edit it as you were doing. Of course, we can also go through the deleted disruptive edits to see if there is anything valid that we can put back in. Would you agree to this? I would be happy to do the cut and paste bit, while adding a note to the talk page to explain my actions - but I would rather have your opinion first. If we start working on it again, I would also like to put an under construction tag on the article, in the hope of deterring further disruptive edits while the nomination is still processing. Storye book (talk) 10:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am basing my editing on my last version, but now that the flurry of editing has stopped, I think I should review the new edits first to see if any of them are helpful. The summary of what I accepted and rejected, and the reasons for that, will be posted here (anyway, the DYK nomination is transcluded on the talk page, so it will be seen). There is also an update about the disciplinary law, so I'll have to incorporate this as well. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki: I believe that the only practicable way to resolve the unhelpful edits would be to delete the article and immediately replace it with this last edit by Szmenderowiecki. That way, we will know where we are. Then I can continue my checking through it for DYK, and you can continue to edit it as you were doing. Of course, we can also go through the deleted disruptive edits to see if there is anything valid that we can put back in. Would you agree to this? I would be happy to do the cut and paste bit, while adding a note to the talk page to explain my actions - but I would rather have your opinion first. If we start working on it again, I would also like to put an under construction tag on the article, in the hope of deterring further disruptive edits while the nomination is still processing. Storye book (talk) 10:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Excellent - that sounds good. I recommend leaving some sort of tag at the top of the article while this nom template is operative, though, because the existing cleanup tag stopped the disruptive editor immediately. An alternative is the {{Under construction}} tag with the alternative {{In use}} tag, but, since the current tag has had the desired effect ... Storye book (talk) 11:15, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Changes made to the article were as follows:
- Updates: a disciplinary reform was signed into law and will become effective on July 15, so appropriate changes were introduced.
- Reorganisation: 1. partial reorganisation of the "Staff" section, though avoiding the excessive fragmentation of the last version. The main outlines remain those of the last version I edited. 2. moved "Overview" section back to the lede, as the resulting lead (MOS:LEADLENGTH) was too short and it is the lead that is supposed to be the overview, not the dedicated section.
- Added/removed 1. I did not remove the groups of people who may nominate Constitutional Tribunal judges. 2. I did remove the mention that the Supreme Court adjudicates in cases related to the Tribunal of Arbitration for Sports (Polish Olympic Committee), as I felt that this can be mentioned in the dedicated article, but not in the overview because this is too much detail for an overview. 3. Condensed the sentences about retirement for health reasons or for reasons of inability to adjudicate.
- Ultimately, the changes weren't as far-reaching as I thought, but when this is 70-80 edits within two or three hours, you may often indeed feel lost. I feel that the article is ready to be reviewed, again. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Fantastic, Szmenderowiecki! Well done. And thank you for your patience. I shall look over it tomorrow - it's a long article and I feel that I should take my time over it. Storye book (talk) 16:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)