Aboriginal place names
Thanks for your work on Tasmanian articles. Just be aware that the Government sources are not always consistent, especially with upper case or lower case. However, I think we just need to follow the Government Gazette. The TAC was correct, however: larapuna / Bay of Fires is not an official dual name. StAnselm (talk) 02:01, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- And using the TAC list, there's still more work to be done in putting the official names in articles, like with Cape Barren Island. StAnselm (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- But it's out of date, since it doesn't have the names gazetted in 2021. StAnselm (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- One more thing: Eaglehawk Neck is the common name, which is why we won't change the article name. But it also means we don't need the full dual name throughout the article: I think the better option is having the common name throughout, as in Tasman Peninsula. StAnselm (talk) 02:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks StAnselm for your help. Would it be appropriate to use a style like this instead for names not in the government gazette? Bay of Fires (Palawa kani: larapuna) is bla bla bla.
With appropriate formatting and crosslinks. I've seen this used for alternate language names elsewhere. Poketama (talk) 02:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so, although it appears there isn't an exact 1:1 correspondence between the two. StAnselm (talk) 04:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, I have finished added the official names decided in 2021. But most of the places don't even have Wikipedia articles. StAnselm (talk) 17:24, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Great work thankyou! Very impressed. Poketama (talk) 01:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Brisbane
Please stop the destructive activities on Wikipedia. The description of the changes explains what it is about. Besides, there is a recommendation in this situation: Wikipedia:CYCLE (new edit, revert by other user = musto to be discuss/consensus).
These above arguments sufficient. In addition, there are still two discussions on this subject, to enter the new changes it is necessary to hold off until the end of the discussion. Your changes have been reverted. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 07:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
The things you are linking are suggestions but not binding rules of Wikipedia. I'm willing to wait until things are worked out though so won't revert for now ok? But please be civil I'm not trying to 'destroy Wikipedia'.
Poketama (talk) 09:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia. Yours manipulations and lies and your change despite the ongoing discussion on this topic, it is unacceptable. Your further destructive activities will no longer be tolerated!. This is last warning. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 11:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
License tagging for File:Aboriginal slaves Rottnest 1883.png
Thanks for uploading File:Aboriginal slaves Rottnest 1883.png. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.
To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 19:30, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
Terminology around first contact
Thank you for sending several resources my way. I'm not sure if these are just making a point about use in connection to modern times, as opposed to first contact when "native" was an accurate descriptor for Aboriginal peoples, being native-borns of the land. If you believe another term remains more desirable, may I suggest "Aboriginal" instead? This is used elsewhere in the article, and I don't see "native people" mentioned on the webpages you sent. thorpewilliam (talk) 02:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah for sure Aboriginal people is fine. Poketama (talk) 04:46, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Cheers thorpewilliam (talk) 04:48, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Your edits to James Cook articles
Hello Poketama
I have re-written your edits to the James Cook article and the First Voyage of James Cook Article. The problem I have is that your edits contains some factual errors, are written in a way that suggests you might be promoting a particular POV, and in some cases cut across ongoing discussion on the topic. For example, there have been ongoing discussions regarding the lead of the James Cook article. I understand you were unaware of this, but it is always a good idea to check the discussion pages before you make a substantial edit. You changed the last couple of sentences of the lead to the following: "However, Cook is also a controversial figure for his key role in colonising several indigenous nations including in Hawaii and Australia, and the violence he and his crew used against indigenous peoples.[1][2]." The problem with this is that Britain never colonised Hawaii and therefore Cook could not have played any such role. It also assumes Cook was responsible for all violence. We all make mistakes, but many can be avoided if you read the entire article, all the relevant sources cited in the article, and all the discussion in the discussion pages before you make changes. It is also a good idea not to unilaterally replace the commonly used English names for places with Indigenous names without gaining consensus for this. You will find that if you give the common English name first and then provide the indigenous alternative afterwards (with an explanation and source) most editors will accept this if you explain the change in the relevant talk page. I also reverted your sub-heading "Encounters with Indigenous Australian nations" in the James Cook article. The problem is that you only described one such encounter in a very selective way and so the sub-heading didn't reflect the contents. I agree that the section on the First Voyage is very short, but there is a daughter article on the First Voyage which treats Cook's encounters with Indigenous People in the South Pacific in more detail. I have preserved some information on Cook's first encounter with Indigenous Australians but this was only one of many encounters and should not be given undue prominence.Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Can you please tell me why I described the encounter in a 'very selective way' so that I can maintain better NPOV in the future? I'm not sure why this event needs to be condensed from something I heavily researched into just one sentence? You give the same amount of words to the encounter as to the Crew just gathering stuff afterwards.
- I don't see how I gave this event undue prominence when it's Captain Cook's first encounter with Australian Aboriginal people and the first landing at Botany Bay - these are huge events in Australian history. Thanks for your help. Poketama (talk) 12:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- An example of not maintaining NPOV is the sentence, "Cook, agitated at not being allowed to land and wanting to assert his crew's authority upon the Aboriginal peoples, shot and wounded..." This is editorialising. You give Fitzsimons as the source for this but don't give a page reference. I checked and Fitzsimons doesn't say this at all in his account of the Kurnell landing (pp. 284-90.) You emphasise the one violent encounter with the Gweagal but fail to mention that, as Fitzsimmons states, Cook spent half an hour trying to make the Aboriginal men understand that they came in peace and only wanted water. Cook's party also spent a week in close contact with the local people and there was no further violence. I agree that the violent first encounter with Indigenous Australians should be recorded in the article, but the issue is the amount of space that should be devoted to it in an article of this kind. The article is a full biography of Cook and is written in a condensed way. In order to preserve the balance of the article it would be better to leave the detail to the daughter article on Cook's First Voyage. I added the information on what happened after this encounter because the previous version gave the impression that Cook's party came back for water the next day and then left. In fact, they stayed a week. (I will add that there was no further violent confrontations.) I provide more detail in the First Voyage article. They didn't "just gather stuff" - they took over 40 spears which the locals used for hunting and fishing. More importantly, they tried to establish good relations with the local inhabitants but failed. This is important information. In order to make space for it I removed tangential information about events that happened 15 years after Cook died and which is adequately covered in the article on the First Fleet. Hope this helps. Happy to discuss further. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
RfC
Thanks for initiating an RfC on Indigenous place names. Let's see if we can get something useful out of it rather than having a few editors hurl rocks at each other. To that end, I've made a few formatting changes as per suggestions here. I think that the RfC could have been phrased better but then again I didn't jump up and kick one off myself and it's obviously something we need to nail down so top marks to you for getting one going. --Pete (talk) 23:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Editing others' talk page comments
Regarding this, please read WP:TALKOTHER. Most notably, adding a bolded "Support" in someone else's comment when they didn't add it themselves is not something you can do. While there is some allowance for splitting off excessive discussion into its own section, the original formatting of that RfC is the way RfCs are in general handled (see WP:RFC/All and click through a few if you're not familiar). If there is excessive discussion that needs to be split off because its gotten too long, I think the correct procedure is to copy and paste it in its own section and make a note at the original thread (e.g. "continued discussion moved to [section x]"), rather than editing in an "@ [username]" message into someone else's comment. Does that make sense? Endwise (talk) 15:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks that's helpful, and yeah I can see the first part was a mistake. If you could help with that formatting if it needs to be done in the future, I'd appreciate it. Cheers. Poketama (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Aboriginal names
Hi, I noticed you added "Naarm" back to the infobox for Melbourne right after I removed it on the basis it is not currently standard procedure to have such names in infoboxes (though they are often included in the lead alongside the particular language they belong to) and that there is – or was at the time (I do not know how this has since progressed) – an ongoing discussion on Australian Wikipedia pertaining to the topic. Since you didn't provide a reason in the edit summary, I'm curious as to your reasoning or if you indeed knew this case. Kind regards, thorpewilliam (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed you've done this on other city articles as well. Have you attained consensus for doing so? thorpewilliam (talk) 11:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi mate, the issues being discussed should be left as they are until the discussion is resolved. Some articles had these names in the infobox before the discussion, and some didn't. They've been left as is for now. If necessary the RfC will be done soon and you can redo it then. Poketama (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Poketama Very well, thanks for the explanation. Can you point me to where I can find said discussion? Cheers, thorpewilliam (talk) 13:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi mate, the issues being discussed should be left as they are until the discussion is resolved. Some articles had these names in the infobox before the discussion, and some didn't. They've been left as is for now. If necessary the RfC will be done soon and you can redo it then. Poketama (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Your mistake
I removed the material on John Batman whom you falsely claim is notable for massacring Tasmanians. Not that notable and certainly not equivalent to his founding of Melbourne. This material was already in the lede and mentioned in the body. I didn't notice that it was in the body because I searched the article for the word "massacre" and didn't find it. That was my mistake, not removing duplicate material! Evidently you didn't read or understand the edit summaries left. Take another look.
If you wish to insult me, please do so in public in the appropriate Wiikipedia forums. Please stay off my talkpage. Thanks. --Pete (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I did not insult you, I used a warning template to ask you not to wipe placenames while there is an ongoing discussion on the inclusion of placenames. Poketama (talk) 05:39, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Your recent edits First Voyage of James Cook
Hello Poketama I have edited you recent edit to remove some incorrect information and some detail which is very dubious and unnecessary. Based on the article by Keith Vincent Smith you name one of the Gweagal men as Cooman. However, if you read the article you will see that this identification is very dubious at best: based on what a white person said in 1905 that another white person told him that an aboriginal woman told him in 1840; ie. that her grandfather was one of the men in 1770 who confronted Cook. This is hearsay about hearsay about an unprovable claim by one person. (The article also indicates that Cooman might simply be a corruption of Go-mang or "grandfather."). In any event, the article doesn't specify that "Cooman" played the role in the landing you ascribe to him. Some of the things you wrote are flatly contradicted by the primary sources. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the names of the Gweagal men were so there's really no need to add information that it not supported by the vast majority of primary and secondary sources. It's best to stick to information that is.Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 14:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Can you please refer me to what things I wrote are flatly contradicted so I can fix them up?
- I think the article is a good source given it is by a prominent Sydney historian Keith Vincent Smith and he does recount how the name and event has been passed down through the Aboriginal families and Biddy attributes the 'spearman' as Cooman. I am unsure of whether the two people you mention are white people or not. There are also many secondary sources, both journal articles and news articles, that mention Cooman and mostly center on Rodney Kelly and the Gweagal shield. (Kelly being a prominent local Aboriginal family in Sydney.) Whether the name is a corruption or not, its one that has been used for a long time to refer to this person and was in fact used by his son which is well documented.
- I disagree that the names of the Aboriginal men don't matter, they were people just the same as Cook and his crew. Their experiences and involvement in the events are just as important, and if there is evidence of names of these men they shouldn't be anonymous. Poketama (talk) 17:37, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- The problem I have is that the article you quote makes clear that the identification of the "spearman" as "Cooman" is not well documented, but rests on a statement written in 1905 based on hearsay that an Aboriginal woman named Colman once told someone else that her husband's grandfather ("Goomung") was one of the men who confronted Cook. But the article states that "Go-mang" means grandfather. So even if the story is true it isn't the person's name - it's a statement that it was someone's grandfather. Nor does the article identify which of the two Aboriginal spearmen is being referred to (Banks identified an older and a younger man, both of whom threw spears.) I have restored the article to its previous version with slight amendments to concentrate on the well attested facts. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for July 1
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Butcher Joe Nangan, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Broome. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)
It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 09:14, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
July 2022
Hello, I'm Donald Albury. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Taíno, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Donald Albury 00:23, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks I think the page is quite confusing at the moment as it refers to several existing Taino communities eg. In Cuba, so I thought this was a grammar error. Ill look into sources later. Poketama (talk) 00:36, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- There are various groups that claim to be Taino, and it is unquestioned that many people in the West Indies are descended from Tainos, but reliable sources do not support the claim that the Taino people still exist as an ethnic group or intact culture. There discussions of the issue at Talk:Taino. - Donald Albury 01:30, 4 July 2022 (UTC)