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Polygraph results in an alleged case of alien abduction
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Travis Walton UFO incident § Polygraph. Sundayclose (talk) 00:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oh dear lord I would rather repaint my whole house twice than get involved in that discussion. Looks like @LuckyLouie and @JoJo Anthrax have it in hand. At a certain point editors need to stop "talking" over each other and make sure they are clear when writing something so there is less ambiguity. And when challenged, maybe step back and think about what the other editor is saying. We just finished several multi-week and month discussions over topics that should have been handled by assuming good faith, and when they finally closed, enemies were made and the final decision was no change from before.
- And years of experience, especially when working on Fringe topics, is nothing to sniff at. These editors have seen it all and lived to tell the tale.
- That was an interesting discussion for me only because the stub I'm rewriting also has a polygraph test in it. I'm stating just exactly what the newspaper says, that the man who claims that the UFO happened, took a lie detector test and that the polygraph operator said that the guy believes his story. I'm not adding that polygraphs are probably BS or anything of the sort, just this is what happened and what the operator said. Done. Sgerbic (talk) 01:25, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- This particular discussion is about a case where Walton failed the polygraph. I think that the fact that one pseudoscience (polygraphy) actually contradicted another (ufology) clouds the issue a little.
- But you are correct. A consensus seems to be emerging, because there's no real ideological aspect to the discussion so far. Happy (Slap me) 01:55, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- And let us hope that a ideological aspect stays out of it and it is settled quickly. Sgerbic (talk) 02:50, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- That's always for the best. Ideological arguments are rarely productive, and I only say "rarely" because it's so hard to prove a negative. I've never seen one be productive. Happy (Slap me) 16:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- I feel like this statement needs to be turned into a "law," in the vein of Murphy's. Because there's a found wisdom in there I don't think I've heard articulated before. :) CleverTitania (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's always for the best. Ideological arguments are rarely productive, and I only say "rarely" because it's so hard to prove a negative. I've never seen one be productive. Happy (Slap me) 16:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- And let us hope that a ideological aspect stays out of it and it is settled quickly. Sgerbic (talk) 02:50, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
Otto Edler von Graeve
The little stub Otto Edler von Graeve caught my attention so I decided to spruce it up a bit. Stretched my non-existent German to the limits. Please feel free to improve it further, and fix mistakes I've introduced (or just let me know). Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 19:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- One of the references, Engineering and Mining Journal, is quoted as saying that von Graeve was president of Internationalen Vereins der Rutenganger but I can't find anything about that. Anybody else know about this? Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 04:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I found the Engineering and Mining Journal archived at the WayBack machine so I've added a section on von Graeve's concept of how dowsing works. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Goals/Where to Start
This is sort of a continuation of the top thread of this page (How this WikiProject works), but that was a long-enough thread, last added to long-enough ago, that it felt appropriate to start a new section.
For the purposes of this topic, I'm exactly the kind of potential new contributor to the project, who would be overwhelmed without some basic instructions - but I never expect to find that on the front of a Project, but rather buried in its Main Discussion. So, I ended up reading that page first, and then backtracking to the simplified Overview page that had already been created.
But I still found a level of disorganization and redundancy that was confusing in places, and wanted to suggest an organizational change that might work better. Toward that end, below you will find a recreated version of the "Project Goals." My intention was not to change any information, but to re-organize it for flow and clarity. But I worried that there were spots where I wasn't accurately interpreting the original text, and was hoping to get some feedback on that first.
The goals of this WikiProject are as follows:
- To create new articles, relating to science and reason, under the {{WikiProject Skepticism}} tag.
- To identify existing articles, related to Scientific skepticism, and add the {{WikiProject Skepticism}} tag where appropriate.
- To review project-related articles for quality, clarity and scientific accuracy. With a particular focus on the following concerns:
- Identify articles with "Good Article" and "Featured Article" potential, and help to guide them through the appropriate review processes.
- Identify articles which are not presently evidence-based, or suffer from highly fringe POV, and improve them using Project Resources.
- To serve as a nexus and discussion area for editors interested in doing such work.
My initial concern was redundant information and instructions between the Overview paragraphs, the Overview lists and the Where to Start lists, but it seemed vital to make sure the above info was accurate, before anything else. CleverTitania (talk) 05:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have no problems with changes being made to explain better and ease the flow of understanding. Have at it.Sgerbic (talk) 21:06, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Lives of the Necromancers
Found this book on Project Guttenberg and decided to add some content to the page. Feel free to continue. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
FBI secret society conspiracy theory
I just found this amongst the stub list and since I am not an American and have no interest in politics anywhere, I hadn't heard about this conspiracy theory. The fact that there are 6 references thrown down at the end of a single paragraph got my goat, so I am going to see if I can do anything with this page. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 15:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oh wow - I don't think I've ever heard of this before. Looking forward to what you do with it. Sgerbic (talk) 19:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Wait, I have heard of this, but a stub? These two FBI people were raked over the coals and I believe they lost their jobs over this. I also think I remember that the male FBI agent was suing someone. Is there another Wikipedia page that talks more about the two agents? Sgerbic (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Peter Strzok. Lisa Page is a redirect to a section on the peter s page. Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 22:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Wait, I have heard of this, but a stub? These two FBI people were raked over the coals and I believe they lost their jobs over this. I also think I remember that the male FBI agent was suing someone. Is there another Wikipedia page that talks more about the two agents? Sgerbic (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- It appears to have had about 2 days of breaking news coverage and twittersphere buzz, and some subsequent media callbacks, based entirely on a single text message from Lisa Page to Peter Strzok, and so of course junior reporters at Wikipedia made an article about it and demanded it be kept. It should probably be redirected to Peter_Strzok#Text_messages, otherwise it's unduly promoting a "conspiracy theory" that doesn't actually exist. --Animalparty! (talk) 05:37, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yep. That sums it up nicely. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 15:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Intelligence in Nature
Just found the stub Intelligence in Nature and couldn't resist adding a bit from the first chapter, Brainy Birds. The chapter starts out quite normally with a visit to the Amazon jungle, wanders down the path of speculating about learned vs instinctive behaviours and then takes a dive into the deep end by claiming that when shamans go into a trance they speak the language of birds and negotiate with some entity for limits on the exploitation of natural resources AND the entity protects animals and plants from reckless and greedy humans. YIKES! Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- This article has been sent to AfD. This was my comment:
- Don't care Interestingly enough (in my opinion, at least) is that this article was written in August 2007, almost nothing was done to it for 15 years and then, when I make an improvement, it is suddenly sent to AfD. I don't care if this article is deleted, merged or ignored - either way it will no longer be a stub, which was my intention all along. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Carson Sink UFO incident
Sourced to Lulu.com books and NICAP. Could use some help. - LuckyLouie (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- A lot of help: Reference 1 is a dead link; reference 2 is the self-published lulu book that, according to its Amazon description, explains how "various Bible passages ... reveal many realities of the supernatural;" reference 3 is a pro-woo source; reference 4 is nicap; reference 5 is Ruppelt. I'll see what I can do over the next few days. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- There are plenty of UFO books simply repeating Ruppelt and supporting the "unexplained" angle, but there may not be WP:FRIND sources to establish this topic as notable per WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm having a tough time finding any RS about this topic, meaning I haven't found anything that meets WP:FRIND. I might not be the best blood hound for this sort of thing, but shouldn't there be more than pro-woo sites and cut/paste replicates of the current WP page? I'll keep searching, but my confidence is low. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe SGerbic can work some magic with newspapers.com. If there are no sources outside the UFO bubble, AfD is the solution. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your confidence Louie. I've tried Newspapers.com and because Carson Sink is a real place, it's getting a lot of hits. But when I add UFO I don't get anything for any year. But I'll try a few other search terms. I've looked at two books on UFO's on my shelves and not finding a mention, I'll take another look over my book shelves. Not finding anything in Skeptical Inquirer but will try a few other places. I just sent an email and am awaiting a response. Give me a day or so, it's possible that it is just too obscure for the media to have picked it up, or maybe it's called something completely different? Fingers crossed,Sgerbic (talk) 01:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- There seems to be a book called "Carson Sink UFO Incident" by Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, John McBrewster from 2010, but even that book doesn't seem to have created a buzz. I've tried YouTube which has videos on nearly everything, and not finding anything other than just the place Carson Sink. It looks like the UFO incident might be mentioned in videos somewhere but not even a stand alone video. In the magical thinking blogs they all seem to be quoting each other, all saying that this is one of the best cases for a UFO sighting because of the argument from authority ... two jet pilots could not be wrong, because they are jet pilots. In the book "The Paranormal Phenomena" by Hur, the Carson Sink incident only gets three sentences, not even it's own paragraph. I just went though page 6 of Google search results and didn't find one reliable source. @JoJo Anthrax don't feel bad, I'm using some of my better woo-foo and not finding anything. No mention of it on BadUFO's which is Robert Sheaffers blog. And on Mick West's website MetaBunk I only see this one post about Carson Sink being used for target practice [1]. No mention on Skeptoid website, nor Skeptic Magazine. I'm almost ready to say AfD this page. Sgerbic (talk) 02:29, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Okay I just got a response to my email. It was suggested that almost nothing exists on this, maybe something is in the Blue Book files and there was a quote somewhere else about it. But this amazing UFO sighting is not very amazing once you look into it. @LuckyLouie are you going to put it up for AfD? Sgerbic (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The three of us made a good try at finding sources but no luck, so yes, I will do an AfD (unless you'd like the honors). - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:25, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done WP:Articles for deletion/Carson Sink UFO incident - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:23, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Okay I just got a response to my email. It was suggested that almost nothing exists on this, maybe something is in the Blue Book files and there was a quote somewhere else about it. But this amazing UFO sighting is not very amazing once you look into it. @LuckyLouie are you going to put it up for AfD? Sgerbic (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- There seems to be a book called "Carson Sink UFO Incident" by Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, John McBrewster from 2010, but even that book doesn't seem to have created a buzz. I've tried YouTube which has videos on nearly everything, and not finding anything other than just the place Carson Sink. It looks like the UFO incident might be mentioned in videos somewhere but not even a stand alone video. In the magical thinking blogs they all seem to be quoting each other, all saying that this is one of the best cases for a UFO sighting because of the argument from authority ... two jet pilots could not be wrong, because they are jet pilots. In the book "The Paranormal Phenomena" by Hur, the Carson Sink incident only gets three sentences, not even it's own paragraph. I just went though page 6 of Google search results and didn't find one reliable source. @JoJo Anthrax don't feel bad, I'm using some of my better woo-foo and not finding anything. No mention of it on BadUFO's which is Robert Sheaffers blog. And on Mick West's website MetaBunk I only see this one post about Carson Sink being used for target practice [1]. No mention on Skeptoid website, nor Skeptic Magazine. I'm almost ready to say AfD this page. Sgerbic (talk) 02:29, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your confidence Louie. I've tried Newspapers.com and because Carson Sink is a real place, it's getting a lot of hits. But when I add UFO I don't get anything for any year. But I'll try a few other search terms. I've looked at two books on UFO's on my shelves and not finding a mention, I'll take another look over my book shelves. Not finding anything in Skeptical Inquirer but will try a few other places. I just sent an email and am awaiting a response. Give me a day or so, it's possible that it is just too obscure for the media to have picked it up, or maybe it's called something completely different? Fingers crossed,Sgerbic (talk) 01:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe SGerbic can work some magic with newspapers.com. If there are no sources outside the UFO bubble, AfD is the solution. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm having a tough time finding any RS about this topic, meaning I haven't found anything that meets WP:FRIND. I might not be the best blood hound for this sort of thing, but shouldn't there be more than pro-woo sites and cut/paste replicates of the current WP page? I'll keep searching, but my confidence is low. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- There are plenty of UFO books simply repeating Ruppelt and supporting the "unexplained" angle, but there may not be WP:FRIND sources to establish this topic as notable per WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Closed as delete Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carson Sink UFO incident] Sgerbic (talk) 17:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Now that the article has been deleted, I am comfortable writing here that I found this "incident" to be quite peculiar. Specifically, I can not rule out the hypothesis that not only did the alleged witnesses not witness anything, but they might not have even known about the incident. The echo chamber of pro-fringe blogs is no help, and the few sites outside the UFO bubble that even mention one of the witnesses indicate nothing about the incident, or even UFOs. Might this "incident" be an example of the Illusory truth effect? JoJo Anthrax (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I wonder also. What I found interesting was that this Wikipedia page existed for so long without being challenged. I have written multiple Wikipedia pages about UFO's or people in the UFO community and felt when challenged by @LuckyLouie to find better sources, that I would have no difficulty at all finding sources that were off the Internet i.e. books, journals, magazines. I went through all my resources, dusting off even obscure references from decades ago and found nothing. I consulted those on the skepticism that are considered UFO experts and they had nothing to offer and I heard they had never heard of this incident. And then Newspapers.com not giving me anything was very odd. When a Wikipedia page like this exists when it is so obviously not notable, that is embarrassing to me as a long-time Wikipedia editor. Thank you Louie for bring it to our attention. I am sad that it had to be deleted as I love that we have preserved the history of UFOs. The psychology behind this whole culture is fascinating to me. Sgerbic (talk) 17:53, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Request for Comment at Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon
There is a RfC at Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon § RfC on category inclusion/exclusion as to whether Historicity of the Book of Mormon should to be included in the "pseudohistory" category. ––FormalDude talk 06:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Stephan Riess
Just spent some time on Stephan Riess, geologist and dowser. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- You took out 9 citations, what was it about them that made you remove them? Sgerbic (talk) 20:51, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- One of the editors added a list of newspaper articles as individual references but they weren’t linked which I hate. Basically they are worthless because you can’t access them, you just have to believe what is claimed. The worst offender is a reference to an unpublished biography?? FFS? What use is referencing something that nobody can find? Which is why I tagged that section as unread. I later found other sources that contained some of the biographical info so I removed the tag. Actually almost all of the refs were “unlinked” but I managed to find most of them. Also the editor didn’t name refs and then reuse the named reference, they just copied the ref in full so there were a few duplicates that I removed. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 03:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe somebody with access to Newspapers.com could track down and improve the news references ‘’hint hint’’. Wyatt Tyrone Smith (talk) 03:52, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
What next? Will WikiProject Skepticism survive?
Today is June 2nd, 2022 and time to revisit this WikiProject. I was instructed by the ArbCom decision that I and GSoW needed to have a more public presence here on Wikipedia. Some felt that I should run a brand new WikiProject but only for GSoW members. Instead what we decided was to revive WikiProject Skepticism and to encourage those people who were listed as members of the project to come back and help us rebuild it.
We have revamped the main page and cleaned out the participant list, I personally sent a message to all 100+ people who remained on the participant list (and cleaned it up). We did see some drop off at that point (a few wished us well) and we have had a few new people join.
I proposed a group project to get us better acquainted and focused on improving skepticism stubs here Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism/Skepticism Stub Sub-Project Project (SSSPP).
So that was a three month project March 1st to June 1st, 2022. We rewrote 22 Skepticism stubs, and four editors participated. All four are GSoW editors (including myself), so that wasn't successful at all. All that happened was what GSoW would have been doing anyway. We have had a few conversations here on talk with some suggestions to be involved in other conversations happening on pages that are under discussion. And a bit of conversation here and there about pages that need improvement, some with non-GSoW members.
Now, I'm just not sure where to go from here? If there is very little involvement by people who aren't GSoW then what is the purpose of this group? Without participation from the 100+ people who signed up for WikiProject Skepticism then I might as well just go back to doing what we were doing before?
I think what I'm asking for is some reason, or encouragement that those people who signed up to help on this project please speak up.
I don't think I need to remind this projects participants that now more than ever the world needs to make sure that great information, well written and visually appealing Wikipedia pages (in all languages) need to be the norm. Fringe and magical thinking is prevalent and dangerious. Sgerbic (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well it has been a week+ and no one has answered this post. I think I got my answer. Very sad. Sgerbic (talk) 18:33, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I don't understand your issue/worry/concern. I see plenty of activity, with helpful discussions here leading to more than a couple of articles being improved. All while strong efforts by...others, to suppress/silence/discourage so-called "pro-skeptic" editors on enWiki have been effectively faced. Even if only two editors were "active" (and who knows how many others regularly read this board and react to it, without posting), wouldn't that be perfectly fine? I just don't see why 100+ active editors, GSoW members or not, are required for this gin joint to be judged successful. Seems successful to me. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well JoJo I hope you are right. I'm used to discussion when there is a post. ArbCom told me that they wanted GSoW and I to have a public presence on Wikipedia and I am endeavoring to do so. What is discouraging is that mostly the only responses are from other GSoW people, I could just continue posting in our private group if that is to be the norm. Why duplicate efforts if there is little response? The stub project did receive 22 rewrites! That's a win, but the only participants were GSoW members. In order for WikiProject Skepticism to survive is if we have more discussion and participation from the members of the group. Sgerbic (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Looking over the archives, a lot of the action in this WikiProject appears to have migrated to WP:FTN, e.g. problem articles needing help, questions about what's fringe, notices of RfC's of interest, etc. It could be that most Wikipedians simply don't know that WP Skepticism has been revived by you. Also I don't think this WikiProject can duplicate the energy you are used to feeling at GSoW. Most WikiProjects that I know of don't have a central manager overseeing everything, they tend to be unstructured and ad-hoc, and so the activity tends to be sporadic and unpredictable. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sigh - I really didn't want to be "in charge" but I took seriously what most people advised me to do and work on a WikiProject. I did go though the members list months ago and cleaned it up, and then posted a talk message on every members page. Anyone that signed up for this project received a personal message letting them know that we were trying to revive this project. Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard seems to be discussion about problems concerning fringe topics and policy and not necessarily the building (or rebuilding) of pages. I'll try leaving a message there and see if that helps. Thanks Louie Sgerbic (talk) 00:17, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- Looking over the archives, a lot of the action in this WikiProject appears to have migrated to WP:FTN, e.g. problem articles needing help, questions about what's fringe, notices of RfC's of interest, etc. It could be that most Wikipedians simply don't know that WP Skepticism has been revived by you. Also I don't think this WikiProject can duplicate the energy you are used to feeling at GSoW. Most WikiProjects that I know of don't have a central manager overseeing everything, they tend to be unstructured and ad-hoc, and so the activity tends to be sporadic and unpredictable. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well JoJo I hope you are right. I'm used to discussion when there is a post. ArbCom told me that they wanted GSoW and I to have a public presence on Wikipedia and I am endeavoring to do so. What is discouraging is that mostly the only responses are from other GSoW people, I could just continue posting in our private group if that is to be the norm. Why duplicate efforts if there is little response? The stub project did receive 22 rewrites! That's a win, but the only participants were GSoW members. In order for WikiProject Skepticism to survive is if we have more discussion and participation from the members of the group. Sgerbic (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I don't understand your issue/worry/concern. I see plenty of activity, with helpful discussions here leading to more than a couple of articles being improved. All while strong efforts by...others, to suppress/silence/discourage so-called "pro-skeptic" editors on enWiki have been effectively faced. Even if only two editors were "active" (and who knows how many others regularly read this board and react to it, without posting), wouldn't that be perfectly fine? I just don't see why 100+ active editors, GSoW members or not, are required for this gin joint to be judged successful. Seems successful to me. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed this now instead of earlier because my huge watchlist drowned it. My thing is preventing fringe edits rather than writing articles, so this is low prio for me. But I thought the purpose of reviving this project was that the Eye of Sauron cannot see anything outside Mordor, so more of GSoW does needs to happen inside Wikipedia to allow scrutiny. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:55, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- In reply to Susan, I'm not a joiner of things, never was. In fact, I dont think I have ever joined a project on this project. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 16:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind joining in an effort to promote healthy skepticism across our articles. I'm curious what articles are in need of improvement, however. Most of the articles I've read are pretty good already, and any article that touches on one of the 'traditional enemies' of skepticism (pseudoscience, conspiracy theories and religious fundamentalism) seems to have a good couple of obviously-skeptical editors already watching the pages, working to keep the woo out.
- But if there's some work that needs a bit more focused attention than that, well... I'm your Huckleberry. Happy (Slap me) 17:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hello Happy. I think part of the issue is that we are all on the same team, that is in keeping pages concerning fringe/skepticism strong and healthy, but one group is concerned with keeping the pages from having misinformation added or good information removed. Watchlists are the best tool to keep the pages in check. Another group of editors wants to write/rewrite pages concerning fringe/skepticism and get them in great shape. I know that second group also uses their watchlists to keep pages in good shape, but as I'm one of these people I keep my watchlist to a minimum. You may fall in one of those two groups or somewhere in between, I don't know. This WikiProject is not for one or the other, I think it understands that we all have to work together to make the best Wikipedia for readers to find the information they need to understand.
- Possibly what my frustration with this project is, is that most people who signed on to be a member of Wikiproject Skepticism are those that are in the first group. When I train people to be a part of the GSoW (which this WikiProject is not) I train to build and rewrite entire pages concerning science, paranormal and scientific skepticism. We focus on making the page readable from top to bottom, photos/videos/audio is an important part of that. The GSoW also focuses on non-English Wikipedia pages, while you might say to yourself, "how can I participate in that when I only edit in English?" The answer is that often we translate from English, which means that it needs to be the best possible in English first.
- Photos/videos/audio is another element that is often neglected but make a Wikipedia page more likely to be read. Help is always needed to locate and correctly upload to WMC the images we need. You would think that people don't carry a camera everywhere they go in their pockets with the lack of photos we have uploaded. If we could use a picture of food, or a adorable puppy as a main photo for a scientist then we would have plenty of images. I'm always pleading on social media for people to go though their photo albums and upload images, some do and others panic when reading the upload instructions on WMC (I get a mild panic attack when doing so and I've uploaded often - but I digress).
- I knew of a stack of old quack medical devices and spent a couple hours photographing them and uploading a bunch to WMC - some I was able to use on Wikipedia pages - others are waiting for a place to put them. Here is an Radioclast device [2] and this is a bottle from the Seven Sutherland Sisters [3]. I love visiting museums and gardens and take a lot of photos that are uploaded and then used for articles, not just skepticism but a lot of science pages. If you don't have the skill/desire to take photos, then possibly finding the images others have taken and helping them upload is.
- I started a stub rewrite project here for 3 months that focused on skepticism topics. That was so much fun, I learned a bunch Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism/Skepticism Stub Sub-Project Project (SSSPP) at the bottom of that sub-project there is a "Need ideas" area that gives you links to find the Wikipedia pages that need help. There is a lot of work there, and you can specialize on what type of help you enjoy doing. This cleanup list [4] has 4,650 issues currently. Some need citations found, others need copy editing, or have weasel words or are too technical and on and on.
- I have joined WikiProject Science also - but frankly it is almost as inactive as this one is. But science is such an important part of scientific skepticism that I think the overlap is close. I was hoping for more interest in the SSSPP project and possibly switching to a 3-month project that focused on Wikipedia pages concerning science museums which would also include zoos, botanical gardens and such. But am wary of trying to reactivate yet another WikiProject when having little success with this one.
- To be frank with you all, there are thousands of things to do. I don't hand out to-do lists. Whatever inspires you is what you should do, if it is rewriting a page or fixing a dead link or removing vandalism, it's all important. We have to work together on this. Pick something you enjoy. Getting to what @Hob Gadling said earlier, yes there are those Wikipedia editors want to keep an eye on GSoW and myself, fine, keep an eye on us. I have said many many times that when I was struggling to learn to edit Wikipedia I tried first to use WikiProject Skepticism, but it was dead as a doornail and has mostly remained so all these years. I am a team player and love interacting with people. Because I found no support here on Wikipedia, I created an off-Wiki Facebook community that is responsive to comments, friendly and funny, helpful to other editors and on the same path I am on. If I can't find that here on WikiProject Skepticism then why continue here? I want this project to be the place where editors (not only GSoW) will find to support each other - find community and get this work done. Sgerbic (talk) 19:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- As a fan of Brian Dunning (author) I've found his discussions quite interesting. More importantly to the Project I've done some linking here and there between his podcasts and the associated WP articles. I shall continue, and I'll focus more attention on spiffing up the articles on the assessment list. So if these WikiGnome efforts are helpful to the Project the effort will be doubly worthwhile. – S. Rich (talk) 21:46, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Request for comments at Talk:Astrology
There is a RfC about how to word the first sentences of the lead at Talk:Astrology#Request for comments: Lead paragraph which may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Varginha UFO incident
Late 90s Brazilian UFO flap with UFOlogists views, media hype, and publicity, but no discernable WP:FRIND sourcing. A mocking article in the Wall Street Journal appears to cover the basics. However the bulk of Spanish language media cited is WP:SENSATIONAL and credulous. Could use someone familiar with Portuguese or Spanish language to sift through the drek and create a more encyclopedic article. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- As you wrote here,
I'm coming around to see that apparently this is a big deal in Brazil
. That was the key insight I gained from that AfD, and that the numerous and vehement "keep" !voters have apparently done nothing since to improve the article...well, I salute you for your determination. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 17:25, 21 June 2022 (UTC)- Yes, just because it's notable in Brazilian pop culture, it's not a reason to keep poor sources and bad construction. Of course, if the sources were in English I could easily sort out the good from the bad. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Google Translate has become pretty good. The first paragraph of the "ET de Varginha" source is turned into this:
- "20 years ago...
- ...at around 3:30 pm on January 20, 1996, two sisters and a friend were cutting a path through a vacant lot when they came across something that would be a strange being: short stature, thin, disproportionate head, large red eyes without pupil and iris; on the skull, three protuberances. Apparently frightened, the creature would have swollen veins over its shoulders. Thus, they described the contact with the legendary ET of Varginha, a character in the episode that helped to consolidate the figure of ET in the Brazilian imagination and still raises many doubts."
- So, the Portuguese should not be much of a hindrance. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- One of the GSoW Portuguese editors said that he has done what he could in the past for this UFO page in English and Portuguese. He said that there aren't R/S in Portuguese that are critical of the incident. I've looked into my normal UFO sources, and am finding no mention of Varginha. I assume that these UFO reports are so plentiful that they aren't getting the coverage. Guess it is just wack-a-mole. At some point can't we just cite the experts who say that they have not found anything worthy of investigation, does every UFO sighting that is sensationalized by the media get to have its own Wikipedia page without criticism just because the few experts don't think it is necessary to respond to every single story? Sigh - It's frustrating. Sgerbic (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are the existing Portuguese/Spanish language sources serious journalistic WP:RS, or are they New York Post / The Sun type tabloids...or "News Of The Weird" sections of normally serious, reliable sources...or written by guest paranormal/UFO writers? This information could help us determine if we should be using them to base article text on. Google Translate isn't enough. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's ask @VdSV9 as that is a very good question. Sgerbic (talk) 22:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I added Google translation links where I could to the reference templates. I had to do something similar for foreign links in the Miss Teen International article last year. There are also some citation template parameters available dealing with translations. I have not reviewed the suitability of the cited sources. I am not a Spanish speaker so I can't help much further. 5Q5|✉ 13:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the translation links. So far, I have found reference #4 originates from the "Bizarre Planet" section of G1 globo.com [5], a section that specializes in sensationalism and "news of the weird". - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's quite the source: wonderful sketches, ufo's, secret government spooks, cows, alien creatures, intrepid ufologists, animals at the zoo dropping dead, a woman possibly impregnated by an alien...what's not to love?! I now fully understand why an editor at the AfD wrote
The "incident" is still culturally and historically significant within Brazil and Brazilian culture
. I particularly like the girls' description of the "crouching" alien: "there were spots that looked like veins on the skin and some bumps on the head...eyes were two red balls." Paging Dr. Freud! JoJo Anthrax (talk) 07:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)- And even if a majority of otherwise sedate Brazilian media reported these claims without comment or concluded that spaceships from another planet, ghosts, psychics, cryptids, etc. were likely responsible, Wikipedia is still bound by WP:EXTRAORDINARY and WP:FRINGE. The national media of Brazil is, after all, a minority opinion within the context of the larger world. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is Brazil where they filmed Stranger Things and Buffy? I'm thinking Brazil should start marketing this stuff and make a ton on paranormal tourism. Sgerbic (talk) 17:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, it's not just Brazil. We know that pressure to increase readership and revenue can influence even the most RS. Over the years, I’ve found that a remarkable number of news sources indulge in sensational treatment of these kinds of claims, and coverage typically follows a similar structure:
- Dramatic presentation: emotionally immersive, chronological narrative of “the incident” or “the events” (often with ridiculously exact times, e.g. “at 12:47 PM…”) told from the claimants point of view. Often includes seemingly corroborating anecdotes from other people.
- Over-emphasis on anecdotal evidence: lengthy “eyewitness testimony” with lots of compelling detail (often 2/3 of the article is devoted to this).
- Conspiracy as a tantalizing option: official statements that contradict claimant narratives are subtly or overtly framed as “denials”, e.g. “the Brazilian government denies…”.
- Token skepticism (sometimes omitted or watered down): if experts offer alternative views, they are immediately followed by anecdotes from “eyewitnesses”, e.g. “I know what I saw”.
- Open-ended conclusion: i.e. “nobody can know for sure what happened”. There are many variations of this closer, e.g.“…the only thing we can know for certain is that on (date) John Doe’s life changed forever”. Or, “….today, twenty one years after the incident, 69-year-old John Doe is still convinced he experienced something extraordinary that day in June”.
- You can’t blame Wikipedia editors for following the same structure when summarizing what these sources say — we are taught that if something is RS sourced then it must be given due weight. However that doesn’t mean we must be an echo chamber for sensationalism. The first thing I’d do after some of these Brazilian sources are sorted out, is get rid of “The Creatures” section, which is an uncritical treatment of extraordinary claims (bolstered by UFOlogists, no less). Rather than have separate and conflicting “he said/she said” sections, I’d start off the article body with a “Claims” section that covers the essentials of who claimed what, and weave in the statements by the Brazilian government to that same section. A pop culture/influence section can follow. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well that sounds like you have it in hand. :-) Sgerbic (talk) 17:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- @LuckyLouie: Everything you write is, as always, insightful and correct. I will try over the next few days to help this effort by editing the article accordingly, but based upon the AfD I suspect a whole lotta Cachaça-inspired mad will be coming my way. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:56, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is Brazil where they filmed Stranger Things and Buffy? I'm thinking Brazil should start marketing this stuff and make a ton on paranormal tourism. Sgerbic (talk) 17:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- And even if a majority of otherwise sedate Brazilian media reported these claims without comment or concluded that spaceships from another planet, ghosts, psychics, cryptids, etc. were likely responsible, Wikipedia is still bound by WP:EXTRAORDINARY and WP:FRINGE. The national media of Brazil is, after all, a minority opinion within the context of the larger world. - LuckyLouie (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's quite the source: wonderful sketches, ufo's, secret government spooks, cows, alien creatures, intrepid ufologists, animals at the zoo dropping dead, a woman possibly impregnated by an alien...what's not to love?! I now fully understand why an editor at the AfD wrote
- Thanks for the translation links. So far, I have found reference #4 originates from the "Bizarre Planet" section of G1 globo.com [5], a section that specializes in sensationalism and "news of the weird". - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I added Google translation links where I could to the reference templates. I had to do something similar for foreign links in the Miss Teen International article last year. There are also some citation template parameters available dealing with translations. I have not reviewed the suitability of the cited sources. I am not a Spanish speaker so I can't help much further. 5Q5|✉ 13:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's ask @VdSV9 as that is a very good question. Sgerbic (talk) 22:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are the existing Portuguese/Spanish language sources serious journalistic WP:RS, or are they New York Post / The Sun type tabloids...or "News Of The Weird" sections of normally serious, reliable sources...or written by guest paranormal/UFO writers? This information could help us determine if we should be using them to base article text on. Google Translate isn't enough. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- One of the GSoW Portuguese editors said that he has done what he could in the past for this UFO page in English and Portuguese. He said that there aren't R/S in Portuguese that are critical of the incident. I've looked into my normal UFO sources, and am finding no mention of Varginha. I assume that these UFO reports are so plentiful that they aren't getting the coverage. Guess it is just wack-a-mole. At some point can't we just cite the experts who say that they have not found anything worthy of investigation, does every UFO sighting that is sensationalized by the media get to have its own Wikipedia page without criticism just because the few experts don't think it is necessary to respond to every single story? Sigh - It's frustrating. Sgerbic (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Google Translate has become pretty good. The first paragraph of the "ET de Varginha" source is turned into this:
- Yes, just because it's notable in Brazilian pop culture, it's not a reason to keep poor sources and bad construction. Of course, if the sources were in English I could easily sort out the good from the bad. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
redefining WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE
There is a critical discussion at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Are_the_only_significant_views_on_pseudoscience_topics_those_of_scientists%3F It would be very bad for the Skepticism project if we allow the Demarcation Problem to become the stalking horse of fringe ideas. You can always rely on philosophers of science to have a wacky idea that, out of context, can be used to diminish the notion of scientific consensus. I actually find all that quite fascinating, but rewriting policy to allow the academic winds to blow freely through the lead section of pages such as Astrology would the start of a trash vortex. Cheers DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- OMG I can only imagine what a ness something like this would be. I'll go look at this discussion and see if it is a crockpot idea or if they are seriously discussing it. Thanks! Sgerbic (talk) 22:40, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Luis Elizondo
There is ongoing WP:COI and WP:PROMO activity on this page that could benefit from dispassionate eyes. See this, this, and this from a recently blocked editor who here claims to be part of a legal team that is interested in ensuring the accuracy of this page
. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:07, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh really? A legal team ... that's priceless. I wrote the Elizondo page and have been quite entertained at all the changes that are trying to be forced. Sgerbic (talk) 20:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The personal section always gives it away "Elizondo met his wife, Jennifer, while attending college in Miami, Florida, in 1993. Upon Elizondo’s graduation from the University of Miami in 1995, he immediately joined the United States Army and was assigned to a unit in South Korea. Upon his arrival back to the United States one year later, he returned to Jennifer and his three month old daughter, Taylor. In 2001, Elizondo and his wife welcomed another daughter, Alexandria. They raised their family on Kent Island, Maryland while Elizondo worked as an intelligence officer in Washington, D.C. and later, at the Pentagon. Elizondo and his wife reside in Wyoming."
- You can almost hear the tone of the editor trying to remove the phrase "his lovely wife" and "adorable daughter, Taylor" in the paragraph. BTW I just noticed, we don't name a minor child unless they need to be named. Sgerbic (talk) 21:09, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, much of the content in that article is less than encyclopedic, and that motivated my post above. But did you also know that my edits to the page apparently represent a classic example of why Wikipedia articles cannot be used as credible sources in academic articles? I had no idea. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 06:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- JoJo you are THE editor that is responsible for making Wikipedia articles not credible sources in academic articles??? The power you hold! Can I have your autograph and please mentor me! Sgerbic (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep up the good work JoJo and you may someday be inducted into the OWEDTRWSMRTMC. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:24, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- LOL - Now I have a new goal - to be on that list! Sgerbic (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- But the voices in my head from outer space still keep telling me that I'll never be one of the cool kids. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:45, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, much of the content in that article is less than encyclopedic, and that motivated my post above. But did you also know that my edits to the page apparently represent a classic example of why Wikipedia articles cannot be used as credible sources in academic articles? I had no idea. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 06:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Superstition rewrite
I've started what will probably end up being a complete rewrite of the Superstition article. It's important because as another editor pointed out, it's used as reference in other pages to establish what is a superstition and what isn't. It's difficult academic-like work (well difficult for me), but fortunately Stuart Vyse's latest book is a great help and several good pieces are already on the page, they just need to come together in a better text. Going section by section and adding a few more good sources, hopefully we'll get to a text everyone can be comfortable with. Don't hesitate to chip is, bring sources (developing the folklore angle would be really good). Should take the week, will redo the lead last. Robincantin (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Very excited to see this happen. Thank you Robin! I'm sure there are other very important pages that are standard that probably need a relook. Even if they don't need a full-rewrite they probably need editors to keep on their watchlists and every few years need a good revisit. Sgerbic (talk) 18:50, 3 July 2022 (UTC)