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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Bengali Kayastha | Resolved | Satnam2408 (t) | 14 days, 5 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 4 hours |
Nova Scotia | In Progress | Danachos (t) | 3 days, 21 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 12 hours | Headbomb (t) | 1 days, 15 hours |
Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe | New | Tet (t) | 2 days, 3 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 21 hours | Tet (t) | 30 minutes |
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church | New | Pbritti (t) | 1 days, 16 hours | None | n/a | Pbritti (t) | 1 days, 16 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 20:00, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
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Current disputes
Bengali Kayastha
Closed discussion |
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Nova Scotia
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Nova Scotia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
User Danachos updated the Nova Scotia page to include Wabanaki history in the intro and in the History section. There were several edits made. User Magnolia677 blanket reverted all edits citing issues with the Creation story being irrelevant to the History section. Danachos undid the revision, requesting more targeted edits rather than blanket revisions. Discussion occurred on the Nova Scotia talk page, and a consensus was reached to not have the Creation story present; however, there were requests to not erase Indigenous histories, such as the Peace and Friendship Treaties mention in the intro or the more beefed up pre-European section of the History section.
Users Moxy and Magnolia677 reverted the article back to its near-original. To note: The European information remains unsourced, such as the Acadian presence and treaties between Britain and France. The problem both users seemed to have were the fact that the Wabanaki information was unsourced, with user Magnolia677 further claiming that information––such as the Peace and Friendship Treaties and the districts of Mi'kma'ki that overlap with the modern day province––"is almost entirely out of scope and only marginally relevant to Nova Scotia."
User Danachos then, in response to both the need for citations and to its 'marginal relevancy,' rewrote the previous edits, making changes here and there, and added appropriate citations throughout.
User Danachos made special mention to both Moxy and Magnolia677 about how frequently European histories are favoured over Indigenous histories, and there is a history of censorship when it comes to equal-footing writing. I (Danachos) urge those deciding upon this dispute to consider the uneven requirements made of Indigenous inclusion compared to European inclusion and to make note of the consistent history North America has in the erasure of Indigenous topics and presence. The goal of the Nova Scotia page is to have a more equitable overview of the province.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Nova_Scotia#The_Creation_Story Talk:Nova_Scotia#Wabanaki_History User_talk:Magnolia677#Nova_Scotia
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Most basically, the addition of more than just three users is helpful. Further, additional viewpoints (and different sets of biases) should help round out this issue. Finally, although I (Danachos) have a long history on Wikipedia, I still do not entirely understands the steps needed to advance issues; having users of more expertise should assist this process
Content in dispute
Miꞌkmaq: Nopa Skoꞌsia[1][2] The land that comprises what is now Nova Scotia was inhabited by the Miꞌkmaw Nation at the time of European exploration.[3] Their country, Miꞌkmaꞌki, has existed within the Dawnland region[4] since time immemorial.[3][5] In 1605, Acadia, France's first New France colony, was founded with the creation of Acadia's capital, Port-Royal, in one of the eight traditional districts of Miꞌkmaꞌki called Kespukwitk.[6] Britain fought France and the Wabanaki Nations[7] for the territory on numerous occasions for over a century afterwards.[8] The Fortress of Louisbourg was a key focus point in the battle for control. In the fight against the French, following the Great Upheaval (1755–1763) where the British deported the Acadians en masse, the Conquest of New France (1758–1760) by the British, and the Treaty of Paris (1763), France had to surrender Acadia to the British Empire. Once surrendered, the resulting jurisdiction included what would later become Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick in 1769 and 1784, respectively, and encompassed much of the Wolastoqiyik and Miꞌkmaw countries.[9] The resulting modern day territory of Nova Scotia overlaps with the Miꞌkmaꞌki districts of Piktuk, Sipekniꞌkatik, Eskikewaꞌkik, and the country's capital territory (or "fire"),[10][11] now most popularly known as Cape Breton, Unamaꞌkik.[12][13][14]
The conflicts with the Miꞌkmaq and other Wabanaki Nations settled down with the signing of the Peace and Friendship Treaties between 1725 and 1779,[8][15][16][Note 1] where oaths of allegiance were given during Treaty ceremonies to guarantee the Miꞌkmaq the protection and rights as British subjects.[17] During the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), there were attempts to recruit the Miꞌkmaq to fight against the British.[18] Instead however, the Miꞌkmaq renewed their oath of allegiance with the British Crown and affirmed their bonds of peace and friendship.[8][17]
What is now considered Nova Scotia overlaps with several districts of the Mi'kmaw Country, called Mi'kma'ki[3] or also spelled Mi'gma'gi,[19] in a region termed "Dawnland" by the local Indigenous nations. Dawnland, or Wabanakik, encompasses the territorial entirety of the Maritime provinces and New England as well as Newfoundland. The Mi'kmaq, also called L'nu in the Mi'kmaw language, would later become one of the constituent nations of the Wabanaki Confederacy, whose territorial integrity would include countries such as Wolastokuk and Ndakinna.
Traditionally, Mi'kma'ki maintained seven autonomous districts headed each by a Sagamaw.[3] The eighth district, Tqamkuk, is today understood to be Newfoundland. The core of Mi'kmaw governance occurs through the Sante' Mawio'mi, or Grand Council (also called the Mi'kmawey Mawio'mi),[3] which resides at Mniku in Unama'kik, and which still functions as the capital of national Mi'kmaw governance today in the Potlotek reserve.[19][20] Representatives from across Mi'kma'ki sat, and continue to sit, on the council which consisted of captains (Kji'keptan), who led the council, wampum readers (Putu's), who maintained treaty and traditional laws, and soldiers (Smagn'is), who protected the people, as well as a women's council.[19][20][3]
Mi'kmaw Law is called Netukulimk which drives and oversees the use of the natural bounty of Mi'kma'ki "for the self-support and well-being of the individual and the community."[21] Functioning as the foundation of sustaining Mi'kmaw families, communities, and society[22] in order to achieve "adequate standards of community nutrition and economic well-being without jeopardizing the integrity, diversity, or productivity of [the] environment,"[21] this mindset understands the whole of life to be interconnected, describing the rights and responsibilities of the Mi’kmaq with their families, communities, nation, and eco-system.[23]
Notes & Refs
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References
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Summary of dispute by Magnolia677
This Indian tribe covered an area much larger than Nova Scotia, so adding five paragraphs and two photos unbalances the article. Moreover, the text is hardly relevant to this article about a Canadian province. Maybe if this tribe had made a large contribution to the province's development--built a railway or a university--then of course, but five paragraphs about their superstitions and treaty signing does not improve the article. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Moxy
As mentioned before WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.....better article for this information would be at Miꞌkmaq or Wabanaki Confederacy...not a provincial article. Why are we talking about a huge region spanning Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and New England in this article?Moxy- 23:23, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
This space is for a summary of the dispute by Moxy. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
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Nova Scotia discussion
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors. One editor has responded, and so is aware of the filing. Notification of the remaining editor on their user talk page is required. The space that is provided for a summary by an editor is for a summary by that editor, not for discussion of the summary. Any discussion at this noticeboard is supervised by a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- How exactly do I notify them? I let Magnolia677 know in two separate places that this dispute resolution has been filed Danachos (talk) 18:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Nova Scotia)
I will act as the moderator. Please read the usual rules. There will be no back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions, and you will address your answers to me and to the community. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements do not communicate effectively; sometimes their main purpose is to make the poster feel better. Please read the rules a second time. Discuss content, not contributors.
It appears that one editor wants to add information about a First Nation creation myth, and two editors disagree. Is that correct? I will ask each editor to state, in one paragraph, what in the article they want changed, or what they want left the same that other editors want to change. If you have any other questions, please ask them. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:04, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
First statement by editors (Nova Scotia)
Statement by Danachos:- In response to: "It appears that one editor wants to add information about a First Nation creation myth, and two editors disagree. Is that correct?" This is incorrect. The original edit did indeed have a creation history added alongside additional historical information (in the history section above "European Settlement") and along with an updated introduction. After that was reverted—citing the creation history was not necessary on this page—I conceded that point and stopped trying to add it in. I do not wish to have the creation history present nor have I tried to include the creation history in the last several attempts to edit the page.
In response to: "I will ask each editor to state, in one paragraph, what in the article they want changed": What I would like to see changed in the article is everything you see here on the dispute resolution page. 1) To maintain the name "Nopa Sko'sia" at the beginning of the introduction (note: I did not add that in myself; it was deleted along with my edits by one of the cited editors here in this dispute resolution; after its deletion, I re-added it along with my other edits, adding two sourced citations for its use as Mi'kmaw translation of "Nova Scotia"); 2) Update the introduction to the page that integrates Wabanaki (and, specifically, Mi'kmaw) history. This means updating the language to the modern Canadian standard (i.e., referring to the nation as a nation, talking about their country as a country, considering treaties made with Indigenous nations equal of importance to treaties made with European nations, etc.); 3) Updating the History section of the article to include a proper section prior to "European Settlement" (labelled in my edits as "Indigenous Dawnland" referring to the region's translated English name) rather than the current measly two sentences that are on the live page. I also moved the current Mi'kmaw family photo down to the appropriate time (photo was taken in 1871, so I moved it to the "19th century" section, the 1870s part of the history section), and I included under Indigenous Dawnland two maps of the countries of the region, showing all the countries of the Dawnland or Wabanaki Confederacy and zooming in on the Mi'kmaw country (again, please note: five of the seven / eight districts of Mi'kma'ki historically and currently overlap with Nova Scotia, including the country's capital at Mniku, Unama'ki, in Potlotek). Danachos (talk) 16:47, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
First comment by random editor (Nova Scotia)
I look at the above content, and it seems very solidly sourced, and relatively well written (I'd omit flavourful language 'time immemorial' in favour of 'record history' or similar). There is certainly a place in the Nova Scotia article for this most of this content (the first three paragraphs, the last two doesn't belong in the Nova Scotia article but elsewhere), though in the lead in this version was substantially too wordy. Particularly mentioning the individual 'districts' seem out of place (like in In 1605, Acadia, France's first New France colony, was founded with the creation of Acadia's capital, Port-Royal, in one of the eight traditional districts of Miꞌkmaꞌki called Kespukwitk. or The resulting modern day territory of Nova Scotia overlaps with the Miꞌkmaꞌki districts of Piktuk, Sipekniꞌkatik, Eskikewaꞌkik, and the country's capital territory (or "fire"),[18][19] now most popularly known as Cape Breton, Unamaꞌkik.[20][21][22], which could simply be summarized as the 'territory of the Wabanaki Confederacy', or alternatively 'the Wabanakik region' or similar). The lead should cover the very broad strokes, not the finicky details. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 05:04, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe
- He opposes two of my edits to the article.
- In one of them I use a source where one of the killers claims he has "the same skin colour as the victim", which he thinks should not be included. In the complex and ambigous racial panorama of Brazil it is not at all clear the killers were "white", just look at their pictures, and actually no source claims they were. Tet opposes my edit because he claims the article I used as a source states that even if the killers were black or brown it would still be a racist killing. Again, my point is not to claim that it was, or it wasn't a racist killing, just to add the information about one of the murderers statement about his skin colour, and how he used that to claim it was not a racist killing.
- Secondly I edited a statement about a black reporter being harassed during protests against the murder. In the source he uses the term "gente de pele clara", meaning "people of light skin", which Tet translated in wikipedia as "white Brazilians", I edited and changed it to "people of light skin", to better reflect the source. If he wants to add the information about the reporter being specifically targeted by a white men, in addition to being harassed by people of light skin, I think it is fine.
- In relation to my edit on "dominant minorities", I understand that it was wrong to delete his contribution and I should have discussed that on the talk page. For that I appologise.
- But my point in that action was none of the sources claims white Brazilians are a dominant minority. They are sources that show that white Brazilians are in average wealthier and suffer less violent deaths than black and brown Brazilians. For the reasons I already explained, I don't think that is enough to make the claim that "white Brazilians are a dominant minority" like the other ones listed on the article (white South Africans during Apartheid, Alawites in Assad's Syria, Americo-Liberians in pre 1980's Liberia etcc) Knoterification (talk) 14:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Tet (talk · contribs)
- Knoterification (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The dispute is mostly about race and racism. The other editor is trying to downplay or deny the involvement of white Brazilian in the killing, or of a white Brazilian reportedly harassing a journalist by trying to do a literal translation from Portuguese to English. It is quite hard to assume good faith considering that in a different article about race relations in Brazil, this user removed all the content, which I have replaced with plenty of sources. this edit
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I have shown multiple sources contradicting the claims and edits of this user, but I was ignored. He is still repeating arguments that the sources linked throughout the article explain why racism and xenophobia is a relevant to the article about the murder. Even his own sources contradict his edits. I also see no rational argument to remove any mentions of white Brazilians when corroborated by reputable sources.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I honestly am trying this venue because I don't know a less aggressive way to deal with it. Should this fail, I will try the admin's noticeboard.
Summary of dispute by Knoterification
Murder of Moïse Mugenyi Kabagambe discussion
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor writes
It is quite hard to assume good faith
. It is necessary and required to assume good faith at this noticeboard. Questions about bad faith can be raised at WP:ANI, if they must be raised. So comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:05, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Should I move this to ANI then? Tetizeraz - (talk page) 19:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Pbritti (talk · contribs)
- Zoticus777 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
I am attempting to insert sourced dates of establishment, names of founders, and relationships with other churches onto the page of a Christian denomination.
The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (MOSC) is an Indian Christian denomination with a history of ecclesial and legal disputes with the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church (JSCC), both asserting themselves as legitimate successors of the Malankara Church, a historic denomination. The portion of this historic body that joined the Syriac Orthodox Church (SOC) is the predecessor to both groups, which have on occasion considered themselves only partially separated. However, multiple academic accounts, reliable news reports, and church-published histories acknowledge a discrete establishment period for the the MOSC in 1909 to 1912. This establishment has been repeatedly characterized as a MOSC separation and schism from the SOC, the JSCC being those who remained with the SOC. The leaders of the MOSC split have repeatedly been identified as Dionysious V, Dionysius of Vattasseril, and (more rarely) Baselios Paulose I. Sources also concur that the MOSC, while perhaps in communion (roughly meaning fully recognized and accepted as legitimate) with some Oriental Orthodox Churches, it is not fully recognized by the SOC and JSCC. More information and the majority of sources I am utilizing can be found in this edit. It should be noted that another editor previously involved in this discussion, Jude Didimus, was indeffed for unrelated sockpuppetry and hostility towards myself and is subsequently unavailable for additional comment. Zoticus777, though a single-purpose editor, has remained mostly civil and should have their opinion considered as sound and reasonable.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church#Establishment_date
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I would go to third opinion as this is mostly a dispute between myself and Zoticus777, but this discussion has involved at least four parties over the last couple months. I would appreciate a volunteer identifying if my requested additions are suitable for inclusion in the article with the sources provided. While I have concerns regarding other portions of the article, these omissions appear to border on a violation of NPOV.