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New Map
Hello, I have made a new map of Caucasian Albania with the help of User:HistoryofIran and would like to replace it with the current one in the infobox. Please tell me what you think and if there's any way the map can be improved. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'd go so far ahead and say it's a no brainer that CuriousGolden's map is much better. I personally can barely see what is going on in the current map, it's too clustered. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gentlemen, CuriousGolden & HistoryofIran, am I missing something, or are you now the administrators and owners of Wikipedia? You, two participants, most likely from Azerbaijan, discussed with each other and literally less than a month ago introduced this map into the article, without any broad discussion and consensus. This map does not illustrate the real history of Caucasian Albania, which by the 4-5 centuries turned into a vassal formation from Persia. For the first 500 years of its existence, this state did not include the land south of the Kura River. This VERY significant fact is not illustrated in any way on your map. While on this map (by Kamilla Trever), this fact is shown. --Rs4815 (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- The map you tried to add was significantly worse than the current one, which goes without saying, is much more clear and detailed. Also, please keep a calm tone, and please keep the guesswork (srsly, my name literally gives away my origins, yet you thought me Azeri because I didn't agree with you?) to yourself. Ironically, you're the one who add tried to your map without any broad discussion and consensus - I suggest you do that, thanks. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- "was significantly worse than the current one", accourding to whom? You? The map I have provided is at least based on a reliable source, but what is yours based on?
- "which goes without saying, is much more clear and detailed", well, in that case, let's use Robert Hewsen's map in the template, which is also very detailed and illustrates the history of the kingdom throughout most of its existence. --Rs4815 (talk) 11:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- The attempts at minimizing the area owned by Albania for whatever reason sounds a lot like WP:JDLI (not to mention the earlier personal attack by trying to somehow make a point by calling us Azerbaijanis). HistoryofIran has already given sources in this talk page for the map. Here are some more: From Byzantium to Iran: Armenian Studies in Honour of Nina G. Garsoïan; From Caucasian Albania to Arran (300 BC - AD 1300); Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Also want to note for other neutral editors here that this article is possibly being brigaded by Redditors from r/Armenia as there was a trending post about it on the subreddit a week ago. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Daamn they’ve roasted the map lol. Well, I am willing to look back into the bit about Cawdk, as it may be disputed. Perhaps we also ought to have a map of Caucasian Albania before its expansion pre 363/387? I’m going to expand the article, to make people aware that the Albanians wrested (amongst other things) land from the Kingdom of Armenia (hence the Armenian names, dear Reddit). HistoryofIran (talk)
- They are indeed funny comments. I was really confused about why most of them thought the borders being large has anything to do with modern Azerbaijan since I'm sure most of them already know the 2 states aren't related. The only actual helpful critic I could find in the comments was about how Albania has part of the coast from Sevan lake in the current map when it probably shouldn't? At least I haven't seen any map that includes it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah probably a mistake on my part, Ill look it up quickly when I get home. Some names possibly need to be slighty changed as well to appear more WP:COMMON NAME but still not become (at least too much) anachronistic. HistoryofIran (talk)
- Sure, just update me with anything that needs to be changed and I'll do it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, following Hewsen, the border at the lake is pretty correct. Though he includes the Caspian part of Albania under direct Sasanian rule from the 5th-century or as early as 387 - I will look more into it. He only vaguely mentions that Albania sometimes extended their border as far as Derbent. Arc'ax and C'awdk seems to be the same entity as well, and it is also known as Orkhistene. Shakasen needs to be Sakasen. According to Hewsen, Bazgan is the same as Balasagan. Above Kambechan needs to be the district of Elni / Xeni. Think it will be easier if I send you the Hewsen source (its page 41), check your mail :d. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, I updated the map with the changes you suggested and some few changes I got from the Hewsen map. Check it out and see if anything's missing. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Looks better. Arc'ax and C'awdk needs to be merged as well from what I've understood. And we probably have to consider whether the Caspian part should indeed be considered part of Albania, but I will try to look more into it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, From what I saw on the Hewsen map, there seems to be an additional separate Cawdk near Sevan, aside from the one near Arc'ax. So I included them as separate for now. Let me know if anything further needs to be changed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- @CuriousGolden: Delving deeper into it, I think the map should be depicted exactly as Hewsen's map, considering it seems unlikely that the Kingdom of Albania controlled the Caspian coast, at least generally;
- HistoryofIran, From what I saw on the Hewsen map, there seems to be an additional separate Cawdk near Sevan, aside from the one near Arc'ax. So I included them as separate for now. Let me know if anything further needs to be changed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Looks better. Arc'ax and C'awdk needs to be merged as well from what I've understood. And we probably have to consider whether the Caspian part should indeed be considered part of Albania, but I will try to look more into it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, I updated the map with the changes you suggested and some few changes I got from the Hewsen map. Check it out and see if anything's missing. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:16, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, following Hewsen, the border at the lake is pretty correct. Though he includes the Caspian part of Albania under direct Sasanian rule from the 5th-century or as early as 387 - I will look more into it. He only vaguely mentions that Albania sometimes extended their border as far as Derbent. Arc'ax and C'awdk seems to be the same entity as well, and it is also known as Orkhistene. Shakasen needs to be Sakasen. According to Hewsen, Bazgan is the same as Balasagan. Above Kambechan needs to be the district of Elni / Xeni. Think it will be easier if I send you the Hewsen source (its page 41), check your mail :d. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:19, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sure, just update me with anything that needs to be changed and I'll do it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah probably a mistake on my part, Ill look it up quickly when I get home. Some names possibly need to be slighty changed as well to appear more WP:COMMON NAME but still not become (at least too much) anachronistic. HistoryofIran (talk)
- They are indeed funny comments. I was really confused about why most of them thought the borders being large has anything to do with modern Azerbaijan since I'm sure most of them already know the 2 states aren't related. The only actual helpful critic I could find in the comments was about how Albania has part of the coast from Sevan lake in the current map when it probably shouldn't? At least I haven't seen any map that includes it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Daamn they’ve roasted the map lol. Well, I am willing to look back into the bit about Cawdk, as it may be disputed. Perhaps we also ought to have a map of Caucasian Albania before its expansion pre 363/387? I’m going to expand the article, to make people aware that the Albanians wrested (amongst other things) land from the Kingdom of Armenia (hence the Armenian names, dear Reddit). HistoryofIran (talk)
- The attempts at minimizing the area owned by Albania for whatever reason sounds a lot like WP:JDLI (not to mention the earlier personal attack by trying to somehow make a point by calling us Azerbaijanis). HistoryofIran has already given sources in this talk page for the map. Here are some more: From Byzantium to Iran: Armenian Studies in Honour of Nina G. Garsoïan; From Caucasian Albania to Arran (300 BC - AD 1300); Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Also want to note for other neutral editors here that this article is possibly being brigaded by Redditors from r/Armenia as there was a trending post about it on the subreddit a week ago. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Towards the end of antiquity these coalesced into three kingdoms: Albania,6 concentrated in what are now the northwestern and north-central territories of the Republic of Azerbaijan;7" (The Sasanian World through Georgian Eyes, page 2)
- "Even under the Sasanians Sharvan, Layzan and other principalities of the northern bank of the Kur were completely separated from Arran" (A History of Sharvan and Darband, page 12)
- --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, sure, I'll update it as soon as I can. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:14, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran: I've updated the map per Hewsen source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Awesome, thank you very much for the effort. Hopefully that should calm some people down ;). --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, no problem. @Addictedtohistory: can I ask what part of the map you still think isn't okay as you implied here (even harder for me to understand after I removed the Caspian coast). Perhaps you think American historian Robert H. Hewsen isn't reliable? (Also this is your second revert on this page, thus breaking the discretionary sanctions applying to this article)— CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- @CuriousGolden: This is your own interpretation of Robert H. Hewsen, he never came up with such a map. During Persian rule, there where some border changes, clearly depicted in original map by overlapping Caucasian Albanian and Armenian lands. The map you're proposing as improved one, simply erased Armenian association to Utik, Artsakh, Paytakaran provinces of Armenia present with overlapping Armenian/CA borders in original map. Addictedtohistory (talk) 15:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addictedtohistory, huh, that's weird because my map is almost the copy/paste of Hewsen map with a different style. Are you sure you're looking at page 41? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addictedtohistory Paytakaran was part of Balasagan, while Utik and Artsakh were ceded to Albania in 363/387. Hewsen literally says that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, Albania did not border to Caspian shore in Hewsen's map, which I see has been updated now. I'm aware that Armenian provinces of Utik and Artsakh where attached to Albania in 387 and later to Albanian Marzpanate of Sassanian empire after dissolution of Kingdom of Caucasian Albania, not any time before it. I barely saw Caucasian Albania in the 5th and 6th centuries under the map. But the infobox above states 2nd century BC – 8th century AD, that is misleading. The original image, with overlapping borders depicted borders for a "time lapse" of 2-8th centuries. Current image represents a restricted Sassanian time period and the period of 387-468, and is not suitable for infobox. This image can be moved further down to the Sassanian period of the History section and the original map restored. Addictedtohistory (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Since when does any map of a dynasty depict all of its eras? Here in Wikipedia dynasties are usually portrayed at their zenith, why is this suddenly wrong in the article of Caucasian Albania? The original map ironically shows Albania extending to the Caspian shore, which you (If I'm not mistaken) was against? I mean sure, I wouldn't be against it if we had a map showing the extent of Albania across its lifespan, but it's not a MUST. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to misunderstand my point. If it's suppose to depict the 5-6th century borders, as suggested in barely noticeable description under the map, then this is ok. But for common reader, 2nd century BC – 8th century AD in infobox might suggest that it refers to the map as well. That's what confused me in the first place, when I was referred to Hewsen's map. Addictedtohistory (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I think you're the only one who got confused by that. I've been here for a decade, and I never heard something like this before. You might want to bring this issue up to the designers of the site. -HistoryofIran (talk) 00:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to misunderstand my point. If it's suppose to depict the 5-6th century borders, as suggested in barely noticeable description under the map, then this is ok. But for common reader, 2nd century BC – 8th century AD in infobox might suggest that it refers to the map as well. That's what confused me in the first place, when I was referred to Hewsen's map. Addictedtohistory (talk) 00:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Since when does any map of a dynasty depict all of its eras? Here in Wikipedia dynasties are usually portrayed at their zenith, why is this suddenly wrong in the article of Caucasian Albania? The original map ironically shows Albania extending to the Caspian shore, which you (If I'm not mistaken) was against? I mean sure, I wouldn't be against it if we had a map showing the extent of Albania across its lifespan, but it's not a MUST. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, Albania did not border to Caspian shore in Hewsen's map, which I see has been updated now. I'm aware that Armenian provinces of Utik and Artsakh where attached to Albania in 387 and later to Albanian Marzpanate of Sassanian empire after dissolution of Kingdom of Caucasian Albania, not any time before it. I barely saw Caucasian Albania in the 5th and 6th centuries under the map. But the infobox above states 2nd century BC – 8th century AD, that is misleading. The original image, with overlapping borders depicted borders for a "time lapse" of 2-8th centuries. Current image represents a restricted Sassanian time period and the period of 387-468, and is not suitable for infobox. This image can be moved further down to the Sassanian period of the History section and the original map restored. Addictedtohistory (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addictedtohistory Paytakaran was part of Balasagan, while Utik and Artsakh were ceded to Albania in 363/387. Hewsen literally says that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addictedtohistory, huh, that's weird because my map is almost the copy/paste of Hewsen map with a different style. Are you sure you're looking at page 41? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- @CuriousGolden: This is your own interpretation of Robert H. Hewsen, he never came up with such a map. During Persian rule, there where some border changes, clearly depicted in original map by overlapping Caucasian Albanian and Armenian lands. The map you're proposing as improved one, simply erased Armenian association to Utik, Artsakh, Paytakaran provinces of Armenia present with overlapping Armenian/CA borders in original map. Addictedtohistory (talk) 15:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, no problem. @Addictedtohistory: can I ask what part of the map you still think isn't okay as you implied here (even harder for me to understand after I removed the Caspian coast). Perhaps you think American historian Robert H. Hewsen isn't reliable? (Also this is your second revert on this page, thus breaking the discretionary sanctions applying to this article)— CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Awesome, thank you very much for the effort. Hopefully that should calm some people down ;). --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- @HistoryofIran: I've updated the map per Hewsen source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- HistoryofIran, sure, I'll update it as soon as I can. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:14, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Whilst this map is still being sorted out, and whilst it is still not as well referenced, whilst it does not consensus, it should be reverted back to the original map, or alternatively to a pre-existing referenced map of which wikimedia has a few. If we are using the Hewsen map, that doesn't match at all with the map that's been added. If one feels that the pre-existing maps were too small, that sounds a lot like WP:JDLI. Are we mixing up maps of different centuries to get the largest possible territory that might pass muster, with Hewsen simply being another map to add a little more? Maidyouneed (talk) 02:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
The map above simply interpolates Aghuank (geographic region of Armenia) with Aghuank (Caucasian Albania) east of Kur and is not based on factual history. This Article is becoming an blog that pushes Azerbaijani narrative. Support revert per Maidyouneed Addictedtohistory. Changes should be based on facts.Addictedtohistory (talk) 19:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the infobox map back to the original. To add what has already been commented, I am wary too of combining multiple different maps/sources over multiple time periods to thus synthesise an original new map. Caucasian Albania already has many sourced maps over many periods, without having to create new ones. Maidyouneed (talk) 07:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Uninvolved editor here.
The map is user-created, and this can be construed as original research WP:No original research. While I am sure it was created in good faith with the intention of accuracy, and plenty of articles feature user-created maps, clearly the extent of Caucasian Albania before it became a province of the Sassanid Empire is controversial.
To avoid these issues, I think the map should be removed, placed further down in the article with explanation, or replaced with a map from a published source that is in the public domain.
Cheers, Fredlesaltique (talk) 07:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
- This has been discussed thoroughly in Talk:Caucasian Albania#New Map. If you have any problem with the map, please state it there and we could try to fix it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:41, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CuriousGolden: My bad I moved it up to this section. Fredlesaltique (talk) 00:46, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- This is one outstanding issues of this new map because it is a synthesis of multiple different sources and multiple, along with some expert editor feedback. This was raised but still there wasn't an answer or consensus if this is an appropriate method. Maidyouneed (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
- Uh, no, it’s not. I am honestly starting to get bored of people critising the map without doing any form of research first. This is how the majority of sources depict Albania after 387. If you have something that states otherwise, please show it. HistoryofIran (talk)
- @HistoryofIran: I'm not saying the map's inaccurate or that it was created in bad faith or anything; I assume it wasn't and I also have no way of judging that. I'm just pointing out that it seems to have generated pushback but was changed anyways. which would be one thing if it were from a published source, except that it's not. Fredlesaltique (talk) 00:46, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- Uh, no, it’s not. I am honestly starting to get bored of people critising the map without doing any form of research first. This is how the majority of sources depict Albania after 387. If you have something that states otherwise, please show it. HistoryofIran (talk)
In Azerbaijani historiography tagging - false balance or too few opinions?
A rewrite tag was slapped on this section by Creffel, with the edit summary explanation that "Frankly, the entire section just reads like a single big accusation and does not present any productive Azerbaijani historiography. It makes sense if you point out false historiography and present arguments and counterarguments to create balance, but everything below just gives the impression that the authors of the section are trying to completely strip Caucasian Albania from Azerbaijani history. The entire section goes against WP:IMPARTIAL. Needs balance."
I'm removing the tag, as I have concerns about the rationale and the tag doesn't match the explanation anyway. Template:Cleanup rewrite is for a broad failure "to adhere to Wikipedia's guidelines on style and content", the justification for the tag is that the section is unbalanced (the appropriate tag would either be Template:POV or Template:Too few opinions). The section's sourcing looks convincing to me, there are a range of credible looking historians and I found results echoing their analysis in The Conversation and The Guardian with a quick internet search. I'm not convinced that reliable sources saying Caucasian Albania isn't subject to a large amount of historical revisionism within Azerbaijan actually exist. If such reliable sources don't exist, Creffel's concern is a case of WP:FALSEBALANCE. Jr8825 • Talk 18:47, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, the analysis above is incorrect. The "rewrite tag" was not "slapped" on the section, I believe I gave an appropriate justification for why I decided to include the tag above the section before adding the tag. Furthermore, problems with "POV" or "Too few opinions" fall broadly under the umbrella of "failure to adhere to Wikipedia's guidelines on the style on content", so separating one from the other is incorrect. If you believe we must be more specific with the tag above the section I will welcome such a discussion, but regardless of whether the tag reads "This article may need to be rewritten to comply with Wikipedia's quality standards." or reads "The neutrality of this article is disputed.", at the end of the day, the tag is still indicating that the article fails to comply with Wikipedia's guidelines on style and content and needs alteration.
- Furthermore, you mentioned that the section's sourcing looks convincing to you as a supporting argument as to why you removed the tag – well, that is precisely not the problem. I placed the tag above the section due to WP:IMPARTIAL, not WP:REPUTABLE, these are two different issues. You stated that you found sources supporting the content of the section in The Conversation and The Guardian, and that's fine, but I'll mention it once more, I placed the tag above the section due to WP:IMPARTIAL, not WP:REPUTABLE.
- In addition, you then stated that you are "not convinced that reliable sources saying Caucasian Albania isn't subject to a large amount of historical revisionism within Azerbaijan actually exist" – unless you are an academic/historian that has studied a variety of Azerbaijani sources on Caucasian Albania, with all due respect, your convictions on this issue do not matter. Furthermore, having visited your Wikipedia user profile, I see no indication that you live in Azerbaijan or speak Azerbaijani – either of which would have granted you a significantly greater access to Azerbaijani academic work on Caucasian Albania, and therefore, I can't help but get the impression that your conviction that no reliable sources on Caucasian Albania exist in Azerbaijan is a matter of prejudice rather than a matter of a carefully cultivated, informed opinion, which could indicate that your decision to remove the tag goes against WP:NPOV. Please feel welcome to refute the aforementioned.
- Finally, I just wanted to say that that I believe your removal of the tag was done with good intentions, but I think one should give relevant and neutral justifications when editing sensitive content on Wikipedia. – Creffel (talk) 08:45, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Could you please provide/link to/name RS that dispute the facts as they're presented in the section? I'll look at any sources you provide and we can work together to adjust the section if the sources support change. Also, please remember to comment on content, rather than contributors. I don't have any "convictions" on this issue, I was expressing my scepticism about the availability of such sources as I was unable to find them myself – but, as you're confident such sources exist, please do share them so we can work upwards from the sources, I'm happy to be corrected. Jr8825 • Talk 14:37, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- The cleanup/rewrite tag is primarily for WP:MOS issues, rather than exclusively content issues. Jr8825 • Talk 14:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I will be happy to work with you to amend the contents of the section, but I believe you misunderstood my main point so I will say it again; I placed the tag above the section due to WP:IMPARTIAL, not WP:REPUTABLE. To be even more specific
- "Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article."
- My main problem is with "the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized". First of all, the section talks almost exclusively about Azerbaijani historiography of Caucasian Albania with reference to the Armenian people. Now I am not a historian nor am I a student of history, but it is impossible that every single bit of information that Azerbaijani historiography on Caucaian Albania has to offer is explicitly related to Armenia, therefore the section gives the wrong impression and is therefore impartial. One would expect to see something, anything non-political in the section along the lines of "Azerbaijani historiographers generally agree that what is now known as Caucasian Albania came into existence is xy century and that xy ruler living in the xy territory did xy", except there is absolutely nothing of this sort, the entire section reads like a political mish-mash of quotations allegations.
- The entire section therefore must be either rewritten to make it something other than just a lengthy, politically charged accusation, or at the very least change the header so it more accurately reflect what the section contains, i.e "Criticism of Azerbaijani historiography of Caucasian Albania as it relates to Armenia" – because apart from that one paragraph at the end of the section which is about Georgia, this is basically what this section is.
- I propose this solution: since you object to using Template:Cleanup rewrite, I suggest including the Template:POV in the section instead and we could cooperate in changing the article in the future if either of us proposes significant changes. – Creffel (talk) 07:44, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that much of Azerbaijani historiography (as well as Soviet/post-Soviet historiography in general) has been routinely criticized for its blatant nationalist revisionism, and claiming WP:IMPARTIAL when "the other side" very clearly falls under WP:FRINGE and being non-RS in general is a false comparison. Reliability comes before neutrality on Wikipedia. --Qahramani44 (talk) 07:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I will repeat what I said once again and I sincerely hope this is the last time I have to repeat it. I am not discarding criticism. I am opposed to the exclusive presentation of the entirety of Azerbaijani historiography as if it is a single, large, coordinated, political attempt to undermine Armenian historical heritage, and if you read the section, that's clearly the implication there. Now I am not a historian nor am I a student of history, but it is impossible that every single bit of information that Azerbaijani historiography on Caucaian Albania has to offer is explicitly related to Armenia, therefore the section gives the wrong impression and is therefore impartial. One would expect to see something, anything non-political in the section along the lines of "Azerbaijani historiographers generally agree that what is now known as Caucasian Albania came into existence is xy century and that xy ruler living in the xy territory did xy", except there is absolutely nothing of this sort, the entire section reads like a political mish-mash of quotations and allegations. – Creffel (talk) 08:05, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Agreed that there is no justification of the tag. I am opposed to the exclusive presentation of the entirety of Azerbaijani historiography as if it is a single, large, coordinated, political attempt to undermine Armenian historical heritage - but, it is. That's, like, what every scholar and journalist who has covered this subject has argued. No other reason why medieval-era Armenian churches and art objects are all universally and deceptively described as being of Caucasian Albanian origin. It's mighty embarrassing. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- "but, it is. That's, like, what every scholar and journalist who has covered this subject has argued." I would like to see how every scholar and journalist who has covered this subject state that "the entirety of Azerbaijani historiography explicitly relates to Armenia and serves no purpose other than to undermine Armenian historical heritage, and there is nothing non-political in Azerbaijani historiography" – If you can find something along these lines, I will not discuss this any further and personally remove the tag.
- "No other reason why medieval-era Armenian churches and art objects are all universally and deceptively described as being of Caucasian Albanian origin" – I don't think this is a discussion to be had, Armenian destruction of Azerbaijani towns and cultural heritage in Nagorno-Karabakh during a 30-year period of occupation to make it appear as if Azerbaijanis never lived there is well documented as well, yet I wouldn't go as far as to use this as an argument for why "the entirety of Armenian historiography is political and anti-Azerbaijani".
- Now if I were to open a section on the page called "In Armenian Historiography" and load it up with nothing but controversial material and examples of criticism as if that's all there is to Armenian historiography, I am confident the section would be removed very quickly. Once again for perhaps the 5th time, if you want to include criticism of the political historiography on the page that's totally fine, but don't omit non-political historiography along the lines of "Azerbaijani historiographers generally agree that what is now known as Caucasian Albania came into existence is xy century and that xy ruler living in the xy territory did xy" – Creffel (talk) 17:58, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Creffel. The section doesn't say every single bit of information that Azerbaijani historiography on Caucasian Albania has to offer is explicitly related to Armenia as you suggest it does, it says that it's a major topic of Azerbaijani revisionism which has been repeated by academics and statesmen in Azerbaijan, and provides sources for this statement. It also discusses how some aspects are "claims by Armenians" which have been echoed by academics and consequently disputed by Azerbaijan, "Azerbaijan instead contends that the monuments were not of Armenian, but of Caucasian Albanian, origin", albeit in a way that academics have dismissed: "which, per Thomas De Waal, did not protect "the graveyard from an act in the history wars"". It all seems well-sourced and accurate to me. You still haven't provided any reliable sources that dispute the facts as they are presented – I think the relevant part of NPOV is WP:FALSEBALANCE (which I linked above), did you take a look at this? I don't believe the POV tag is valid here unless you can point to reliable sources that demonstrate these claims are in any way disputed. I see two ways forward, either you present the reliable sources I've asked for so we can work together to adjust the section, or, if you're insistent that I and other editors here are missing something, you could take this to Third Opinion for an assessment by an uninvolved editor. Jr8825 • Talk 19:07, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hello,
- Hi Creffel. The section doesn't say every single bit of information that Azerbaijani historiography on Caucasian Albania has to offer is explicitly related to Armenia as you suggest it does, it says that it's a major topic of Azerbaijani revisionism which has been repeated by academics and statesmen in Azerbaijan, and provides sources for this statement. It also discusses how some aspects are "claims by Armenians" which have been echoed by academics and consequently disputed by Azerbaijan, "Azerbaijan instead contends that the monuments were not of Armenian, but of Caucasian Albanian, origin", albeit in a way that academics have dismissed: "which, per Thomas De Waal, did not protect "the graveyard from an act in the history wars"". It all seems well-sourced and accurate to me. You still haven't provided any reliable sources that dispute the facts as they are presented – I think the relevant part of NPOV is WP:FALSEBALANCE (which I linked above), did you take a look at this? I don't believe the POV tag is valid here unless you can point to reliable sources that demonstrate these claims are in any way disputed. I see two ways forward, either you present the reliable sources I've asked for so we can work together to adjust the section, or, if you're insistent that I and other editors here are missing something, you could take this to Third Opinion for an assessment by an uninvolved editor. Jr8825 • Talk 19:07, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- "it says that it's a major topic of Azerbaijani revisionism which has been repeated by academics and statesmen in Azerbaijan" – Fantastic.
- "provides sources for this statement" – That's great.
- " It also discusses how some aspects are "claims by Armenians" which have been echoed by academics and consequently disputed by Azerbaijan" – Brilliant.
- Except I disputed none of this. I would appreciate it if you could stop mischaracterizing what I am saying. Please stop and address what I am actually saying. Please carefully read my previous statements that I provide below.
- "I am not discarding criticism". "I placed the tag above the section due to WP:IMPARTIAL, not WP:REPUTABLE". ""Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article". "First of all, the section talks almost exclusively about Azerbaijani historiography of Caucasian Albania with reference to the Armenian people. Now I am not a historian nor am I a student of history, but it is impossible that every single bit of information that Azerbaijani historiography on Caucaian Albania has to offer is explicitly related to Armenia, therefore the section gives the wrong impression and is therefore impartial. One would expect to see something, anything non-political in the section along the lines of "Azerbaijani historiographers generally agree that what is now known as Caucasian Albania came into existence is xy century and that xy ruler living in the xy territory did xy", except there is absolutely nothing of this sort, the entire section reads like a political mish-mash of quotations allegations". "The entire section therefore must be either rewritten to make it something other than just a lengthy, politically charged accusation, or at the very least change the header so it more accurately reflect what the section contains, i.e "Criticism of Azerbaijani historiography of Caucasian Albania as it relates to Armenia" – because apart from that one paragraph at the end of the section which is about Georgia, this is basically what this section is".
- "You still haven't provided any reliable sources that dispute the facts as they are presented" – No I have not, because "I placed the tag above the section due to WP:IMPARTIAL, not WP:REPUTABLE". Did you read WP:IMPARTIAL? "Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized"
- "I see two ways forward, either you present the reliable sources I've asked for so we can work together to adjust the section" What sources are you talking about? I don't believe one needs a source to see that creating a section titled "Azerbaijani Historiography" and loading it up exclusively with politically charged, Anti-Armenian revisionism, while completely excluding all possible neutral, non-political, non-armenia-related Azerbaijani historiography requires a source? Perhaps I am missing something?
- I personally see a very simple solution to this issue: We keep either the "NPOV" or "Rewrite" tag above the section as it was, we work together to reorganize the section and add non-political, non-armenia-related Azerbaijani historiography into the section to make the organization of the section more neutral, and then after we are done we remove the tag and all is good, what do you think? – Creffel (talk) 19:52, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- You're projecting. The section isn't damning all Azerbaijani historiography - merely how Azerbaijani historians treat the subject of Caucasian Albania. This is a non-issue, plain and simple. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- I find it surprising that a highly experienced Wikipedia editor such as yourself resorts to semi-personal, implicitly snarky remarks instead of addressing anything I have written above, instead preferring to diminish, ignore, and completely dismiss my points, calling them a "a non-issue" instead of trying to respectfully explain why I am wrong. This is just my personal opinion, but I think the reason behind this is that you can't, which is why a highly experienced Wikipedia editor such as yourself resorts to semi-personal, implicitly snarky remarks. Please feel welcome to prove me wrong. – Creffel (talk) 20:40, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Edit: The reason why I insist that the section is particularly careful in its organization is that we are dealing with a touchy topic here, therefore I simply believe one cannot throw together a bunch of highly political mumbo-jumbo and call it a day. The section was clearly not written with a neutral intent in mind, plain and simple. I hope you can understand my position. – Creffel (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Never mind Creffel, I'm sure Azerbaijan is quietly seeking its own personal equivalents of Turkey's Justin McCarthy and Heath Lowry - once suitable corrupt academics are located and the caviar and paychecks are sent out soon you will have those "neutral" sources you seemingly crave. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- god, this looks like something from reddit. 46.71.217.192 (talk) 06:57, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
- Never mind Creffel, I'm sure Azerbaijan is quietly seeking its own personal equivalents of Turkey's Justin McCarthy and Heath Lowry - once suitable corrupt academics are located and the caviar and paychecks are sent out soon you will have those "neutral" sources you seemingly crave. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Edit: The reason why I insist that the section is particularly careful in its organization is that we are dealing with a touchy topic here, therefore I simply believe one cannot throw together a bunch of highly political mumbo-jumbo and call it a day. The section was clearly not written with a neutral intent in mind, plain and simple. I hope you can understand my position. – Creffel (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the Tribes of Albania
In the wikipedia page, it is written that Strabo wrote that there are 26 tribes of Caucasian Albania. However only 11 of these tribes are mentioned in the page: "Utians, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balas[ak]anians, Parsians and Parrasians." I am curious to know whether if there are more names that can be found. EpeBah (talk) 06:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
New Map
The map is clearly wrong. It contains regions that were not part of caucasian Albania. It never extends to Sevan lake, same with caucasian Iberia.
- Nope, this map is based on the work of Hewsen (Armenia: A Historical Atlas). --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- It is not. Hewsen's map clearly indicates a difference between actual "Caucasian Albania/Aran" and territory that Persia later annexed from its vassal state Armenia and added to its vassal state Caucasian Albania. As well as using different shading to distinguish the two territories (shading which the map here doesn't have), and different titling (only the original territory is labelled Aran / Albania), Hewsen's map also states: "Classical sources are unanimous in marking the river Cyrus (Kur) the frontier between Albanian and Armenia. Only in the late 4th C AD did the Armenian principalities of Artsakh Utik, Gardman, Sakashen, and Kolt pass under permanent Albanian rule". 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:43, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Sigh, what era do you think this map is supposed to represent? 3rd-century BC? It is obviously after the 4th-century AD, even the caption says so. The map is a representation of the Albanian kingdom and what it ruled back then, end off. This WP:JDLI is getting too much now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- It is not. Hewsen's map clearly indicates a difference between actual "Caucasian Albania/Aran" and territory that Persia later annexed from its vassal state Armenia and added to its vassal state Caucasian Albania. As well as using different shading to distinguish the two territories (shading which the map here doesn't have), and different titling (only the original territory is labelled Aran / Albania), Hewsen's map also states: "Classical sources are unanimous in marking the river Cyrus (Kur) the frontier between Albanian and Armenia. Only in the late 4th C AD did the Armenian principalities of Artsakh Utik, Gardman, Sakashen, and Kolt pass under permanent Albanian rule". 78.149.46.96 (talk) 02:43, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
what the term "Albania" means is well known
In Armenian agh means "salt", in Caucasian Avarian language this agh word means "strength",also Mongolian aag 1."fortress, infusion, sharpness, bitterness"2.Superiority, strength, heat, ardor, pride, arrogance.The name of the country is NO EXONYM. It is high time to stop the policy of writing strange versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkan (talk • contribs) 19:37, 1 July 2022 (UTC)