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POV flyby tag
Please explain the WP:NPOV dispute. If there is no dispute, then the NPOV tag should be removed. Boud (talk) 14:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
- Several source, for example this one are badly misrepresented. Volunteer Marek 09:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- I see that the template WP:NPOVD was added on 9 May [1] but the discussion hasn't yet started. I don't see any apparent problem with the source - am I missing something? I was about to remove the template but I'd like to check first if there's consensus or if there's something that needs discussion. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:03, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps this page is ripe for an AfD (although I am not certain, maybe wait for another month and see if something else will be published?). This is all about single video that might be fake. I am not saying it was fake. Maybe it was not, who knows? But this is the point: no one knows. My very best wishes (talk) 02:59, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes - This page should be AfD now, not next month. Potential war propaganda misinformation (utilized by both sides of the conflict, by the way) has no place in Wikipedia. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Le Monde wrote: "L’analyse, par « Le Monde » et des enquêteurs indépendants, d’une vidéo censée montrer des soldats ukrainiens tirant sur des prisonniers russes, confirme son authenticité." [The analysis, by "Le Monde" and independent investigators, of a video supposed to show Ukrainian soldiers shooting at Russian prisoners, confirms its authenticity]. One of the independent investigators mentioned in the article published this. But you're right to the effect that this should be said more clearly in the lead, otherwise readers might still think that the video (which has already been verified by an independent reliable source) is a piece of war propaganda misinformation. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Well, maybe "fake" is incorrect word. Yes, it has been geolocated and probably not outright fabricated (I say "probably" after looking videos of certain celebrities that were fabricated using AI technologies). The question is what exactly had happen out there. Then, there is a question if the video (or the alleged incident on the video) are notable enough to deserve a separate page. My very best wishes (talk) 14:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- (note) - I’ve never said anything about what suppose to be in the lead. I wrote that this article should be deleted (AfD-ed) because the incident is possible (most likely) false flag war propaganda. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:53, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Frankly, the only way it is fake is if there is a Hollywood-level or better manipulation at stake. Without any evidence that such a thing might be going on, and there is none, there is no cause to remove this article. And I think its NPOV has been fixed from earlier problems. Hipponoticed (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Editors can always nominate this article for delation if they have notability or verifiability concerns. This, however, doesn't relate with the topic of this thread: WP:NPOVD. The point of having that tag at the top of the article is starting a discussion. After 3 weeks, it's time to WP:DETAG. As editor without a conflict of interest who does not see the purported problem with the article and does not see any detailed complaint on the talk page, I'm removing the tag. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- There is actually an issue here. Yes, to be sure, there are bodies of Russian soldiers in Mala Rohan, and they were killed. At least 12 bodies in the village [2]. But how and by whom they were killed? Accoring to most recent RS, "At least one of the two had their hands tied, a sign, Ivannikov said, that they may have been punished as deserters [by Russians]. Reuters was unable to verify the circumstances of any of the deaths." My very best wishes (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Quick search finds this much earlier source: [3]. A friendly fire? My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- The first casualty of War is Truth. I’ll repeat, in my humble opinion this article should be nominated for deletion. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- I do not object. I understand that the original video was removed by YouTube and is not currently available? There are other videos about dead bodies on that location [4]. The entire territory previously occupied by Russian forces is a graveyard. My very best wishes (talk) 21:13, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- The first casualty of War is Truth. I’ll repeat, in my humble opinion this article should be nominated for deletion. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:50, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Editors can always nominate this article for delation if they have notability or verifiability concerns. This, however, doesn't relate with the topic of this thread: WP:NPOVD. The point of having that tag at the top of the article is starting a discussion. After 3 weeks, it's time to WP:DETAG. As editor without a conflict of interest who does not see the purported problem with the article and does not see any detailed complaint on the talk page, I'm removing the tag. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Frankly, the only way it is fake is if there is a Hollywood-level or better manipulation at stake. Without any evidence that such a thing might be going on, and there is none, there is no cause to remove this article. And I think its NPOV has been fixed from earlier problems. Hipponoticed (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Le Monde wrote: "L’analyse, par « Le Monde » et des enquêteurs indépendants, d’une vidéo censée montrer des soldats ukrainiens tirant sur des prisonniers russes, confirme son authenticité." [The analysis, by "Le Monde" and independent investigators, of a video supposed to show Ukrainian soldiers shooting at Russian prisoners, confirms its authenticity]. One of the independent investigators mentioned in the article published this. But you're right to the effect that this should be said more clearly in the lead, otherwise readers might still think that the video (which has already been verified by an independent reliable source) is a piece of war propaganda misinformation. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 08:33, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes - This page should be AfD now, not next month. Potential war propaganda misinformation (utilized by both sides of the conflict, by the way) has no place in Wikipedia. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Title
Something less verbose could do? Like Mala Rohan kneecappings or Mala Rohan kneecapping incident? --31.158.143.222 (talk) 22:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think "Intentional shootings" or "Kneecapping" would be better, just because it's a lot more precise. Hipponoticed (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Le Monde source mistranslated
AGF two different versions of the story were published, and the what the source was reported to say is from an earlier version. Nonetheless the version the link goes to is damning and leaves little doubt. (And I had hoped the video was indeed a fake) Note that Le Monde is a world-class newspaper with a reputation as good as or better than the New York Times or the Times of London. If they say a thing is so then it is. The article says:
Les images repérées par l’analyste indépendant Erich Auerbach, et croisées par Le Monde à d’autres documents disponibles en ligne, prouvent que des volontaires du bataillon ukrainien Slobozhanshchyna se trouvaient sur les lieux quand les prisonniers russes ont été torturés. S’il n’est pas pas ossible d’affirmer avec certitude que l’individu auteur du tir est directement issu de leurs rangs, le leader du groupe, Andri Ianholenko, apparaît clairement aux côtés des trois victimes, avant les coups de feu. Sollicité par Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko n’a pas répondu.
This translates as:
The images discovered by the independent analyst Erich Auerbach, and cross-referenced by Le Monde to other documents available online, prove that volunteers of the Ukrainian Slobozhanshchyna batallion were on site when the Russian prisoners were tortured. Although it isn't possible to affirm with certainty that the individual who pulled the trigger came directly from their ranks, the leader of the group, Andri Ianholenko, clearly appears at the side of the three victims before the gunshots. Queried by Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko did not reply.
I have amended the the text of article to reflect the source. Nothing there about taking them into custody a kilometer away. AGF, as I said, that was in a different article with an earlier version, and the person who wrote this did not speak French. But if we believe Le Monde -- and we should -- there is no doubt. I still don't understand the person speaking Russian without an accent on a walkie-talkie though, but that isn't mentioned in this source and this source is what I am correcting Elinruby (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
The frame where Yangolenko clearly appears with the prisoners is not the dairy plant; the video says it is the street the dairy is on and calls it "about 765 yards" away and there's a graphic that says "700 mètres" Hipponoticed (talk) 23:22, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ah. That is where that comes from. The antiquated device I am on at the moment does not play video. Nonetheless, the source does not say that. It says that its investigation *proves* they were present (sur les lieux) although I grant you that it does not specifiy which lieux. It does say when they were tortured though... I have no objection to additional sources fleshing this out to talk about what happened a kilometer up the road, mind you. I would have preferred it if the video was found to be fabricated, but if a Ukrainian unit went rogue and tortured prisoners, then a Ukrainian unit went rogue and torturted prisoners. If you suspect a deepfake or something, I would support you in looking for additional sources. I still don't understand the Russian speaker with no Ukrainian accent, although I am not in a position to verify that. But the text before the citation to Le Monde should summarize what Le Monde said. Elinruby (talk) 00:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- (much later, on another device) I apologize to Hipponoticed, who was quite correct. The video embedded in the article does use video posted to social media by the unit commander to substantiate that the unit was in the area and took custody of the men who were later shot. It does not however say that they were shot by members of the unit accused of shooting them, and the lede as it sits misrepresents the source. The video does discuss some reasons to think so but specifically says that the publication could not definitely substantiate the allegation. More on this later, but taking a moment in the middle of something else to both correct myself and note the issue with the lede. More on this later. Elinruby (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Meduza source - victims
Meduza has a useful report from the victims' families, who are desperate to get info from Russian authorities: https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/06/16/he-had-a-bag-over-his-head-and-a-broken-face, "'He had a bag over his head and a broken face' Russian mother identifies conscript son in video appearing to show Ukrainian troops shooting prisoners of war", 16 June 2022, Meduza. Boud (talk) 02:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)