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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Bengali Kayastha | In Progress | Satnam2408 (t) | 7 days, 8 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 5 hours | Ekdalian (t) | 1 days, 15 hours |
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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 06:00, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
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Current disputes
Bengali Kayastha
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Bengali Kayastha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Satnam2408 (talk · contribs)
- Ekdalian (talk · contribs)
- LukeEmily (talk · contribs)
- Chanchaldm (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The dispute is regarding the addition of the Bengali Karana connection as described in the two most essential scriptures (that enlisted castes, local to Bengal) in the Bengali Kayastha article. According to most sources, there was an unavoidable connection between these two. Some schools of thought regard these two as identical and claim 'Kayastha' is a remolded appellation of 'Karana,' Some other schools of thought claim that Karana merged themselves into the Kayastha. But these all scholars accepted that in epigraphic evidence as well as in the earliest scriptures of Bengal which enlisted these caste groups had taken both synonymously. Currently, the complete information is missing in the Bengali Kayastha article.
Sources:- I prepared a Draft version regarding the origin of the community. Reliable sources are already cited there. However here I am providing some other reliable sources 1. quote- "Whatever the case in early times, in Bengal up to about the ninth or tenth century Karana and Kayastha were considered to be synonymous. In Bengal, the Karanas gradually became subsumed under the name Kāyastha, although we have noted that in the Bengali inscriptions of about the Gupta and post-Gupta era the word Käyastha was used as frequently as the word Karana. Generally, it can be said without doubt that in the inscriptions of this period Käyastha is not a word denoting any caste or sub-caste, but one signifying a profession; the Kāyasthas had not developed in this period into the caste or sub-caste which they comprise today." Ray, Niharranjan, History of the Bengali People, p. 175. 2. quote- "Figuring repeatedly in copper plates of Bengal from the 5th century CE onwards, the Kayastha emerged to immense prominence in the early medieval Bengal society. The Kayastha, often synonymous with the term Karana in Bengal inscriptions, is known since the early historical times as the scribe or the clerk."- Furui, Ryosuke (2018). "Social Life: Issues of Varṇa-Jāti System". In Chowdhury, Abdul Momin; Chakravarti, Ranabir (eds.). History of Bangladesh: Early Bengal in Regional Perspectives (up to c. 1200 CE). Vol. 2: Society, Economy & Culture. Dhaka: Asiatic Society of Bangladesh. p. 62. However, He is silent about the Kayastha-Karana connection. Apart from these reliable sources are cited in the draft version. Quotes if needed would be provided here. Sanyal, Sharma, and Ralph W. Nicholas have taken Karana and Kayastha identical. Majumdar claims Karana merged themselves with Kayastha, however, he accepted that in epigraphic evidence and literary sources both are synonymous.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
- Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#Karana_connection
- Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#Origin_Section
- Talk:Bengali_Kayastha#To_do_list
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
The missing information is essential and should be included in the article. One of the experienced and neutral editors LukeEmily, a specialist in editing Indian caste-related articles has fixed goals in To do list section to improve the article. The Karana-Kayastha connection is also present in this. However, Ekdalian is opposing (at least a section) it by providing a previous consensus. The dispute should be resolved as early as possible by providing a reasonable solution to this. thanks.
Summary of dispute by Ekdalian
Summary of dispute by LukeEmily
Summary of dispute by Chanchaldm
Bengali Kayastha discussion
First statement by moderator, Kayastha
Three of the four editors have responded. Discussion can be conducted with two or more editors. I will act as moderator. Please read the usual rules. Then read the rules, again. If there are any questions about the rules, please ask them now rather than guessing. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements make the poster feel better, but do not communicate as well as shorter statements. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your comments to me and the community. The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, so we will try to define exactly what the content issues are. If there are questions about the reliability of sources, they can be stated, and then asked at the Reliable Source Noticeboard.
I will ask each editor to state, in one or two paragraphs, what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. Also, separately, state any questions about the reliability of sources. After we have identified the article content issues and source reliability issues, we will decide how to proceed further. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
First statements by editors, Kayastha
Statement by Satnam2408:- As I mentioned earlier, I want to add the information regarding the Karan and Kayastha connection in the relevant section of the Bengali Kayastha article. I want to bring the attention of the Moderator to this Draft. I want to incorporate the specific section starting from the line:- In the eleventh century, Bengal was in the grip of Brahmanism. The Kayasthas had evolved into a caste over the preceding centuries [.....] And ending by the line [....] Ralph W. Nicholas associates Kayasthas with Karanas, claiming that 'Kayastha' is a remoulded appellation of 'Karana,' as recorded in the Brihaddharm Purana. The section is highlighted. The section has demonstrated all relevant Theories as propounded by different scholars. The sources and corresponding page numbers are already given there. Thanks.
- Proposed paragraph:-
In the eleventh century, Bengal was in the grip of Brahmanism. The Kayasthas had evolved into a caste over the preceding centuries. The Brihaddharma-Purana, a 13th-century Sanskrit text, contains the earliest comprehensive chronicle of the constitution and structure of the cast system of Bengal.[5] The Brahma Vaivarta Purana, significant for a relatively late Bengali recension (c. 14/15th century), gives a caste structure but differs from the Brihaddharma-Purana on caste description. Traditionally, the Hindu society of Bengal was divided into two categories: Brahmin and Shudra.[5][10] The Brihad-dharma and Brahma-vaivarta Puranas explicitly note a caste group called Karana of mixed descent, from Vaishya father and Shudra mother, classified under the Sat-Shudra/ Uttam-Sankar-Sudra category.[11][12][13] Vaijayanti (11th century A.D.), a lexicographer, appears to consider Kayastha and Karana to be synonymous and depicts them as scribes. This reference is consistent with the Brihaddharma-Purana, and epigraphic evidence proves the identification of Karana and Kayastha.[14] According to Jyotirmoyee Sarma, perhaps the term Kayastha didn't persist as a proper caste name; the Karana was the prevalent caste name when these Puranas were composed.[5] According to Sanyal, the Kayasthas are indistinguishable from the Karanas and were classed alongside some trading and artisan castes in the Brihaddharma Purana.[12] Majumdar observes that, After the conclusion of the Hindu period, the Karana caste, whose members performed the same vocations as the Kayasthas, steadily dissipated from Bengal. The Kayastha caste became prominent from this period. According to these observations, Majumdar concludes that Karana merged themselves into the Kayastha, and these two castes were ultimately fused in Bengal as in other parts of India.[14] Ralph W. Nicholas associates Kayasthas with Karanas, claiming that 'Kayastha' is a remoulded appellation of 'Karana,' as recorded in the Brihaddharm Purana.[11]. Satnam2408 (talk) 03:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Ekdalian:- Satnam2408, you are digressing from the discussion. This DRN discussion is all about the Kayastha-Karana connection in Bengal. We had separate detailed (article) talk page discussions regarding your draft version as well as why the medieval literature (Brahma Vaivarta Purana and Brihaddharma Purana) are not relevant enough to be incorporated in the article. LukeEmily has also clearly stated that this has been opposed by Sitush & Ekdalian. We are not supposed to discuss it here and waste the time and energy of the moderator. Coming to the point, regarding the Kayastha-Karana connection, we may include relevant statements from modern sources like the one LukeEmily has mentioned above (instead of quoting from the primary sources like the Puranas, without any interpretation by modern scholars; including them in the article on Baidya, as per consensus, has different reasons altogether, explained earlier)! And yes, we may mention relevant statements from such modern sources like "National Integration in Historical Perspective: By Rabindra Nath Chakraborty, (pages 121-124)" in both the articles. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Kayastha)
I will repeat my instructions. Each editor is requested to state what they want changed in the article if they want changes made to the article, and to identify any sources about which there are issues about reliability. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
One editor has called our attention to a draft. Is it a draft to replace the existing article, or of a proposed new article? If it is of a proposed new article, it can be submitted to Articles for Creation for review. Also, they have requested that a paragraph of the draft be reviewed. Is that paragraph intended to be added to the article, or to replace a different paragraph in the article? The tone of the draft and the paragraph are not encyclopedic, and are more suited to a textbook or a lecture than an encyclopedia, but that is not important unless we know where the text is to go anyway.
Another editor is addressing the first editor, and is referring to a third editor. Address your comments to the moderator, not to each other. Comment on content, not contributors.
Each editor is asked to state what they want changed in the article. It appears that the issues are not about source reliability but about article content, and this noticeboard is a place to discuss article content. If you want to add to the article, change the article, or subtract from the article, say where in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (Kayastha)
Statement by Satnam2408:- Hey moderator, I am extremely sorry for not getting your point. The draft was prepared to include an origin section in the article, but it was contested. I want to include only my proposed paragraph in the History section of the Bengali Kayastha article, immediately after the line "Sekhar Bandyopadhyay also places their emergence as a caste after the Gupta period." The proposed paragraph has demonstrated the relevant information regarding the Karan and Kayastha connection. Let me give you a summarized idea about exactly what I want to include and the relevance of that. The detailed caste description that persists in Bengal was given in two early scriptures. Bengali Kayastha as a caste name was not present in these Scriptures. There were 36 castes (enlisted in these Scriptures ) in Bengal, and Karana was one of them. According to most scholars, this Karana caste and Kayastha caste (that persist in modern Bengal at present) have connections. Some scholars claimed that both are synonymous in the Brihaddharma Purana. My proposed paragraph has just intended to establish that fact. However, it can be modified to suit the encyclopedia. Thanks. Regards, Satnam2408 (talk) 19:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC).
Statement by Ekdalian:- Hello Robert McClenon; yes, this is purely a content issue. I am opposing the above para proposed by Satnam2408 for the following reasons: a) The draft version is self contradictory e.g. it starts with, "In the eleventh century, Bengal was in the grip of Brahmanism. The Kayasthas had evolved into a caste over the preceding centuries", and later says, "According to Jyotirmoyee Sarma, perhaps the term Kayastha didn't persist as a proper caste name; the Karana was the prevalent caste name when these Puranas were composed." b) Such ambiguities exist since these two Puranas (which Satnam has mentioned) are not WP:RS, rather these are primary sources, which is also applicable for the quotations from the same without any actual interpretation by modern scholars/historians. c) If you have a look at the article on Bengali Kayastha, several reliable authors like André Wink, Tej Ram Sharma and Sekhar Bandyopadhyay place their emergence as a caste after the Gupta period (c. 320 to 550 CE), which contradicts the statement by Jyotirmoyee Sarma above that, "perhaps the term Kayastha didn't persist as a proper caste name" when these Puranas were composed much later, one in the 13th and the other during the 14th/15th century. Therefore, the above statement by Jyotirmoyee Sarma may be considered as WP:FRINGE.
I have no objection to other reliably sourced statements like "Majumdar observes that, After the conclusion of the Hindu period, the Karana caste, whose members performed the same vocations as the Kayasthas, steadily dissipated from Bengal. The Kayastha caste became prominent from this period. According to these observations, Majumdar concludes that Karana merged themselves into the Kayastha, and these two castes were ultimately fused in Bengal as in other parts of India." IMHO, I believe that we can also add relevant statements from the comparatively modern source mentioned by LikeEmily, "National Integration in Historical Perspective: By Rabindra Nath Chakraborty, (pages 121-124)". Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:14, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- In order to provide you more details about these Bengali castes and the caste names, the term 'Karana' in Bengali language means clerk. The Karanas later fused with the more popular Bengali Kayastha caste, a caste comprising administrators, ministers, scribes and record keepers, which also absorbed the descendants of the ruling dynasties of Bengal (as per reliable sources). Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)