Greetings. Obviously as you see the lead suggests that fascism is a Far Right ideology, but the arguments behind the usage of this label does not satisfy the policies and guidelines of the encyclopedia. In this process many Wikipedia policies and guidelines have been breached, including those mentioned in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Given the fact that Fascism was started by Benito Mussolini, he did never identify as right wing but instead self-identified himself as Marxist and Socialist and Leftist and also was once a directorate member of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI) and on top of that during his rule he practiced a socialist economy and never expressed any favor of capitalism. And also as you know, Far Right is the extreme version of right wing, and right wing's main features are support for (free market) capitalism and individualism which are not represented by Fascism and are quite opposite. Fascism is a collectivist ideology not individualist and by nature it's the opposite of capitalism and individualism. Yet ideologies and approaches such as Anarcho-capitalism are perfect examples of extreme versions of right wing, since such ideologies contain the major elements of right wing to the fullest extent. Besides, Nationalism is omni-spectral and universal when it comes to the political spectrum so the Nationalist part of National Socialism and Fascism must not be taken out of context or be attributed to right wing, as nationalism is not necessarily limited to right wing and is universal. For that please see Left-wing nationalism. Moreover there is no consensus among historians to define fascism as far right, for the reason that the topic is highly objected, biased, politicized and ideologically-driven. Due to the fact that the original fascists themselves never identified as right wing let alone far right, and due to the fact that they identified with quite opposite terms such as leftist, socialist and Marxist and finally because there is severe objection to the usage of the term far right for such ideologies, I hereby suggest the removal of this term from the lead. But if that's necessary to keep the content, we can simply mention the matter in the specified sections. In the end I would like to emphasize the fact that the sources which called fascism far right are mostly left wing and far left sources and are highly biased and I would like to mention that there is severe objection to this matter. For example right wing activist Dinesh D'Souza (1) and soviet-born Libertarian scholar Allen Gindler are among people who objected the usage of the term far right for fascism using historical facts and or fact based arguments. Allen says in one of his articles named How and why Fascism and Nazism became the right which was published by the Journal of Libertarian Studies: "Non-Marxist currents of socialism, such as Fascism and National Socialism, were excluded from the socialist camp and put on the right wing by Marxist-Leninist propaganda..." Thank you very much. The Stray Dog Talk Page 06:45, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- This has already been discussed in the archives. Please consider: China is generally considered Far East, but from the persective of the Japanese, it is in the West... --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hob Gadling: First, please behave and do not humiliate me. You apparently are using personal attack through humiliation which is a breach of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Secondly as you know the term wiki in Wikipedia emphasizes the fact that no content here is necessarily permanent. Everything is editable and changeable. And as you see I'm challenging the outcome of that discussion and also the attitude of those who seemingly tried to intimidate users who may want to challenge the outcome of that discussion, which if it's true it would be completely against the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. Please remember that WP:Wikipedia is not censored, consequently the only ones here who are to be excluded are censoring ones not the challenging editors. Plus in relation to what was discouraged by the template above, I didn't call for labeling Fascism as left wing which is evidently a wrongful act done by certain users, but I've just emphasized disregard for the the fact that Fascism is falsely called "far right" and suggested the removal of the term from the lead of this article and moving it to a specified section. I also challenge the usage of such an intimidating template in the talk page which is even in contrast with what the article says. The template says in its first bold sentence that "Fascism is a right-wing ideology" which is a false claim and generalization. Such paradox is absurd and in relation to the topic of this article it is quite ironic! Moreover I would like to inform you and others that if necessary I proceed to investigate the issue and solve it. So please remember that WP:Wikipedia is not a democracy and it is not ruled based upon a majority rule or polls, it is ruled based upon the weight and validity of arguments in accordance with the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. I understand why there is this amount of bias and sensitivity toward this topic, apart from the fact that sentimentalism has no place in an encyclopedia. Finally I would like to inform you that I'm going to bring the general talking point to be discussed in Meta-Wiki. Best Regards. The Stray Dog Talk Page 08:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's face it, you claim that sources which call fascism far right are mostly left wing and far left sources and are highly biased and then you tried to use the equally biased D'Souza and Gindler to disprove this. I don't think that's going to work, is it? Also, Meta is the WMF community site, but does not have any ability to affect content here. Black Kite (talk) 09:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I read your first five sentences, and some of them are not true, others are completely irrelevant red herrings. So, I skipped the rest because it is probably nonsense too. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Let's face it again. First, based on what evidence you consider Allen Gindler (who is a political scientist and a non-controversial scholar) a highly biased person?! Second, I intentionally mentioned Dinesh D'Souza as an example of a prominent right wing personality, to emphasize the fact that right wing people severely reject this idea that fascism is a right wing ideology. One can not attribute a group of people to a certain ideology when those people reject that ideology and are not willing to identify themselves with that. Please face the fact that the absolute majority of right wingers reject what is labeled to them by highly biased far left propagandist, activists and ideologues, as a form of slur word. You're insisting on those highly biased ideologically-driven sources. Every cook praises his own broth, so we should recognize this term as a biased term which is not suitable to be in the article's lead, since those sources are highly biased and hostile toward right wing people. It is a very simple encyclopedic matter. Then we can move this talking point to a section specified to Left-wing Criticism of Fascism or sections alike. See I'm making sense and apparently my argument has more logical weight than yours. The Stray Dog Talk Page 09:39, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- If D'Souza says that fascism is "left", that just means that his own position is right of fascism. Like China being west of Japan. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:46, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- There's so much wrong here I don't know where to begin. So - "One can not attribute a group of people to a certain ideology when those people reject that ideology and are not willing to identify themselves with that." Yet, no-one is calling D'Souza a fascist. Indeed, it would be ludicrous to state that "fascism is a right-wing ideology, so all right-wing people are fascists". That's nonsensical, and the article, clearly, does not do it. Meanwhile, you're still insisting, with no evidence, that the article is based on "highly biased ideologically-driven sources" Please feel free to identify those sources rather than hand-waving and then this conversation can actually proceed. Black Kite (talk) 10:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- @Hob Gadling: We're reaching good points. Ironically, you're argument can be used against your own talking point and it is what I was trying to imply. Your argument is suggesting that the term far right is subjective or relative and it's not objective or factual, and or it only expresses viewpoint of certain people. That's what I've been trying to say since the beginning. Consequently we should not use this term in this article's lead and must use it specifically as a form of biased term, or a certain form of interpretation or criticism of certain people toward fascism. As I said it doesn't matter what D'Souza says. What matter is that he objects the idea of fascism being right wing and he is not alone. The absolute majority of right wing including intellectuals, activists, thinkers and so on object that too. We can not listen to leftists one-sidedly while their argument is not supported by historical facts. The fact is there is no "far east" here, since there is no historical and factual evidence of Mussolini and his ideology being matched to the extreme version of right wing (far right). That is baseless and even quite the opposite. There are only far left and left wing buzz against their opponents, nothing more. Allen Girdler suggests that Fascism is nether right nor left. See there is no consensus on that. Do we call communism and Anarcho-syndicalism far left in their articles' lead? So why we are committing a Double standard here? Isn't that because of bias and cognitive dissonance? Remember WP:Wikipedia is not a democracy, but apparently in this page it became one. I think this process must be reversed. The Stray Dog Talk Page 10:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Pick up and read any book on Fascism from a random library and you will find that Fascism is, in fact, a far-right ideology. This discussion is as baffling as it has been had multiple times. Virtually all of the scholarship on Fascism (which is vast as almost no other topic) knows that Fascism is a right-wing ideology. There is literally no reasonable discussion to be had here. It has nothing to do with wikipedia or bias or anything, it is just the reality - and one that has been so thoroughly documented as little else. All the fancy verbosity on display here changes nothing about this fact. --Mvbaron (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I re-opened the discussion, since not necessarily "every book" suggests that "fascism is a far-right or right-wing ideology" and even if it was true it's not still enough in this case, since Political science is not an exact science it's ideologically-driven and consequently, there is no objective consensus on one political spectrum. These books even suggest their own versions of the political spectrum. Just google "Political Spectrum" to see how many versions of it exist and are taught in universities even among leftists! Some leftist professors even call Libertarianism far-right!!! We have too many religious books that suggest the earth is flat, so should we put that on Wikipedia as a fact just because too many books suggest that?! Of course not. This argument of "too many books" doesn't work. Fascism and National Socialism are in contradiction with right-wing tenets including small-government, free-market capitalism, and individualism. You can't label an anti-capitalist or collectivist ideology as "an extreme version of a capitalist and individualist one" that is a mind-blowing paradox! In fact, right-wing ideologues like Milton Friedman and Murray Rothbard (both of European Jewish descent whose ancestors fled anti-Semitism) created Libertarianism and Anarcho-capitalism which the latter is more fitted to be called far-right. Far-right is the extreme version of right and obviously, it can not be contrary to right-wing tenets. Fascism and National Socialism ideologies are completely contrary to main right-wing tenets. Fascism is big government, not small government, it's anti-capitalism, not pro-capitalism and it's a collectivist ideology while right-wingers reject collectivism and embrace capitalism and individualism. Please do not close this discussion until we reach a solution to this paradoxical problem. And finally please check out Ideological bias on Wikipedia and Reliability of Wikipedia. Wikipedia IS biased and this problem must not be denied and must be fixed as soon as possible. As I promised I will share this problem on Meta-Wiki to seek more help. Thank you for your patience. The Stray Dog Talk Page 05:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Utter BS. This is disruptive. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:49, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Please behave and don't use personal attack and any swear words. Be civil. If you have a point, let's discuss it. Why do you swear on me? Swearing and using the term "BS" is disruptive and disrespectful. What I'm doing is not. I'm being civil. BUT I've been subject to disrespect and even the threat of being blocked since the beginning of this discussion. I see that and understand what is happening here. Please be patient. There is no harm in discussion and talk. Let's not forget the irony of the name of this article. Thank you very much The Stray Dog Talk Page 06:02, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to provide and articulate my rationale and solution for this discussion. And will share it as soon as possible. Until then, please do not close this discussion. Thank you very much. The Stray Dog Talk Page 06:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Please just read the top of the page. The huge red notice wouldn’t exist unless this had been talked to death. Fascism is not conservatism, let alone right-libertarianism like you seem to be suggesting, and it’s based on an older strain of right-wing politics that predates the modernized American Reagan stereotype. Dronebogus (talk) 06:49, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't typically defend Ronald Reagan, but authoritarianism was not part of his ideology. Dimadick (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rationale for moving the term Far-Right from the lead
With all due respect, hereby I suggest moving the term far-right from the leading section of this article to a specified section dedicated to criticism and or scholarly view. This rationale relies on WP:Lead, Wikipedia:Biased phrases, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia: Wikipedia is not a democracy and WP:Be bold. Also this rationale emphasizes Ideological bias on Wikipedia and Reliability of Wikipedia. Finally the reasons are as follows:
- People of the political right including right-wing political scientists and political analysts do not receive fascism and predominantly and constantly oppose the idea that "Fascism is a right-wing ideology". Besides they don't identify with fascism and don't embrace it, on the contrary, they mostly denounce fascism very openly. They also use that term as a slur-word for their left-wing opponents demonstrating no reception or recognition for the term. For example, Jonah Goldberg who is a right-wing political analyst wrote a book called Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning. As said in its article, the book argues that fascist movements were and are left-wing, in contrast to the mainstream view among historians and political scientists that maintains fascism is a far-right ideology. Dinesh D'Souza is another prominent right-wing commentator who shares the same view. This is important because we can't attribute fascism or any ideology to any group of people while they don't receive that or actively oppose that.
- The founder of Fascism Benito Mussolini never identified as right-wing, in fact, he did quite the opposite. Mussolini was born to and raised with socialist parents, self-identified as Marxist, and finally became a directorate member of the Italian Socialist Party. Meanwhile, after establishing his own ideology, he never described it as a right-wing ideology and never changed his hostility toward the political right. There are handwritings of him indicating that he was an anti-capitalist politician which is quite in contrast to the pro-capitalist approach of the right-wing.
- Far Right is supposed to be the extreme version of the right, and fascism doesn't satisfy that. Political right embraces small government, capitalism, and individualism while fascism rejects capitalism and is a collectivist totalitarian ideology. Anarcho-capitalism would be a perfect example of the far-right. Many political scientists and scholars rejected the idea that fascism is a far-right ideology. That would include many Libertarian scholars such as Dr. Allen Gindler of Mises Institute whose objections to misuse of this term have been published in many political journals.
- Political science is not an exact science, it is an ideologically-driven field of study. Hence there are many versions of what is called the Political Spectrum and it is not clear based on which version of it, fascism is considered far-right, and why the other versions are disregarded, as if there is a consensus, which is not.
- Since the beginning of its creation, the word Fascism has been used as a slur-word by many to smear people of different views. There is even an article in Wikipedia called Fascist (insult)) which indicates that matter. Through time fascism became a subjective term that anyone has its own interpretation of it, sometimes in contradiction to the original ideology.
- Many users questioned and objected to the current place of the term in the lead, and that emphasizes the fact that there is a very low chance for this term to last long on the leading section in the near future. Despite the fact that these users have been subject to intimidation by a quite bizarre and unfriendly and un-encyclopedic template that openly tries to stop users from editing and discussing what they desire to edit and discuss, which is quite in opposition to the policies and guidelines of this encyclopedia.
- For further reading please see: How and Why Fascism and Nazism Became the "Right", Fascism: Left, Right, or Neither, A New Approach to the Question of the Political Spectrum Polarization (Abstract), Arguments about the Leftism of Fascism and Nazism, Fascism: Why Not Here? - Brian E.Fogarty, Opinion: Tossing around ‘Nazi’ and ‘fascist’ as insults is reckless and historically illiterate, Fascists, Nazis, racists: Accurate definitions matter, H. G. Wells's 'Liberal Fascism' The New Illusion: “Fascism” in America, The Stray Dog Talk Page 09:03, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- People who use "slur-words" are not reliable sources. Regarding
they don't identify with fascism and don't embrace it , please consult the articles Subset and Affirming the consequent.
- Mussolini is not a reliable source.
- You are not a reliable source. Your cogitations are not relevant.
- Your opinion on political science is not relevant.
- When people are dishonest, I say they are like Donald Trump. Despite my using him as a slur-word, he still exists.
- Those users' opinions are not relevant.
- Too much work to look through those. Your first six bullet points were crap, so I don't expect anything from the seventh. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:21, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- the overwhelming concensus of experts puts fascism on the far rtight of the spectrum. This is disputed by fringe writers like Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza--who are not experts in European history--indeed neither one was a history major or attended graduate school or reads German. Likewise Allen Gindler an engineer who cites not a lot of Soviet books but not a single book or aticle in Italian or German. Rjensen (talk) 09:32, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- to continue about point 7:
- (1,2) Allen Gindler is a private consultant to IT industry on database administration and cryptography. -> not relevant
- (3,4) Server not found
- (5) the book doesn't say anything about whether fascism is let wing
- (6) opinion piece, and doesn't say anything about whether fascism is let wing
- (7) opinion piece, in a blog, and doesn't say anything about whether fascism is let wing
- (8) completely unrelated?
- (9) completely unrelated?
- so, to summarize, none of the things you posted have anything even remotely to do with the question at hand or are written by random people on the internet... It is utterly bizarre to claim that fascism is left wing - in fact this attempt to re-write history is disgusting and mocks the murder of communists and everything perceived 'left wing' by the fascists. You should educate yourself and read one of the many high-quality sources this article already provides instead of reading random blog entries. Mvbaron (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record, 3 and 4 are more papers by Gindler. The other person typo-ed the url, forgetting the colon in the scheme.
- Note that Gindler is the further thing from a reliable source; he's essentially just some rando who likes to publish his own naval gazing about this subject. Note the publications (when they exist: some of these sources are simply directly uploaded PDFs). Literal fake news source, The American Thinker and the Mises Wire, a publish-everything-submitted-to-us clearinghouse. Interestingly, he's gotten a paper or two published in a more prestigious poli-sci journal, though not on the subject of fascism. A telling point.
- It's also worth pointing out that the two figures they mention as opposing this, Jonah Goldberg and Dinesh D'Souza are both fantastically unqualified to weigh in on the subject. Neither has an advanced degree in, nor any experience doing history, neither is an expert on political sciences, but are rather an exclusively populist writer/pundit and an unhinge conspiracy theorist/convicted felon, respectively.
- What we have here is the perfect illustration of an editor pushing for the inclusion of a textbook fringe theory by arguing that the fringe theory is true, rather than that it is not fringe. My advice is for someone with more experience than I to remove or collapse this discussion and for the rest of us to refuse to engage any further. Happy (Slap me) 12:52, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- "Political right embraces small government, capitalism, and individualism" Who the hell defines right-wing by these terms? In Greek history, the right-wing is mostly identified with the ideologies of the Greek junta: staunch anti-communism, Christian values, and suppression of civil liberties. Dimadick (talk) 14:04, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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