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Tiananmen Square Incident needs to be properly referenced
Under the media campaign section, in the final paragraph, there's a line which reads "much the same rhetoric employed by the party during Tiananmen in 1989". Since this is referencing the Tiananmen Square protests, please refer to it as such so as not to confuse the incident with the name of the square itself. Please change this line to "much the same rhetoric employed by the party during Tiananmen Protests of 1989". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheikh25 (talk • contribs) 10:48, October 1, 2020 (UTC)
Delete false statement that Li Hongzhi instructed followers to lie
Delete the sentence that says “These principles have been repeated by Falun Gong members to outsiders as a tactic for evading deeper inquiry, and followers have been instructed by Li to lie about the practice,” and delete the accompanying footnote 36.
That sentence is false. Footnote 36 cites an article by Heather Kavan, which accuses Li Hongzhi of instructing followers to lie, but the lecture that her article cites and links to (Touring North America to Teach the Fa, 2002, https://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm) contradicts Kavan. The full paragraph that Kavan quotes from reads as follows:
“What Dafa disciples are to do today is be responsible to Dafa. Don’t touch the things in everyday people’s society. When you clarify the truth don’t say high-level things; the main thing isn’t to have people understand what the high-level, profound Fa is. Well, people who are particularly good are an exception, and you can tell them about it. But when you clarify the truth to an average person, just tell him that we’re being persecuted and that we’re only doing exercises and trying to be good people, and they’ll be able to understand. After they learn about the truth, people will see all the propaganda for what it is, lies, and they’ll naturally see how despicable and evil it is. After people become aware they will be indignant: 'How can a government act like a bunch of hoodlums? You’ve been persecuted so badly, and you’re persecuted just for trying to be good people.' Just use the simplest ideas when you talk to people. Not only will they be able to accept it and understand it, but they’ll also be less apt to misunderstand. You’ve cultivated for such a long time now, and your understanding of the Fa is quite deep. If you talk about your high-level understanding of the Fa, it will be hard for everyday people to understand, and it’s likely they will misunderstand; you have come to the high-level understanding you have today only after a long process of cultivation. You want people to immediately understand things at a level that high, but they won’t be able to, so don’t talk to them at too high a level. Even when you clarify the truth to religious people you shouldn’t talk at a high level. Just talk about the persecution we’ve suffered. If they don’t want to hear about other spiritual beliefs, we don’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs; tell them that we’re just doing exercises. It’s hard to save people nowadays. You have to explain things to them by following the logic of their attachments. For the sake of saving them, don’t create any obstacles for them.”
Nowhere in that passage did Li instruct followers to lie. Nor did he say anything close to that. The gist of his comment would be more accurately characterized as “keep it simple,” which is hardly a dishonest sentiment. Kavan’s article grossly misrepresented Falun Gong teachings, and the source that she cited does not support her assertion at all. It is very unfair and misleading to include that false statement at the beginning of a section purporting to describe Falun Gong’s “central teachings.” JackUpdike (talk) 03:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is not up to us to interpret Li ourselves to override a reliable source. MrOllie (talk) 01:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It does not require any interpretation to see that the source was inaccurate in this instance. JackUpdike (talk) 04:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It clearly does, how else would you find the source to be inaccurate except through interpretation of Li? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:43, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- You simply read the lecture which the source linked to in the footnotes of her article, and which I quoted above. She said Li instructed followers to lie in that lecture. He clearly did not. Taking notice of that fact does not require interpretation. JackUpdike (talk) 05:32, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I did read it, and Kavan seems like a reasonable interpretation of what Li said, which was clearly to Lie by omission. - MrOllie (talk) 11:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- An instruction to “lie by omission” is not what Kavan claimed Li did, nor is it a fair characterization of Li’s comments JackUpdike (talk) 13:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- You are drawing a distinction without a difference. MrOllie (talk) 13:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree. I think most people would say there is a significant difference between accusing someone of instructing followers to lie, and accusing him of saying things that could be interpreted as an instruction to omit information. In any event, Li did neither in that lecture. Think about it: if the point was to “lie by omission” or conceal Falun Gong teachings, then why does Falun Gong publish the lecture online, along with all of Li’s other teachings, so that anyone can read them for free? JackUpdike (talk) 21:51, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- How does one make a characterization without interpretation? You don't appear to be being honest with us Jack. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I explained my position the best I could. The attack on my honesty is uncalled for. JackUpdike (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- You are drawing a distinction without a difference. MrOllie (talk) 13:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- An instruction to “lie by omission” is not what Kavan claimed Li did, nor is it a fair characterization of Li’s comments JackUpdike (talk) 13:09, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I did read it, and Kavan seems like a reasonable interpretation of what Li said, which was clearly to Lie by omission. - MrOllie (talk) 11:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- You simply read the lecture which the source linked to in the footnotes of her article, and which I quoted above. She said Li instructed followers to lie in that lecture. He clearly did not. Taking notice of that fact does not require interpretation. JackUpdike (talk) 05:32, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It clearly does, how else would you find the source to be inaccurate except through interpretation of Li? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:43, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It does not require any interpretation to see that the source was inaccurate in this instance. JackUpdike (talk) 04:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- We are not deleting a reference from a scholar who is a topic expert. Binksternet (talk) 02:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- She’s not a topic expert; she’s a professor of “speech writing” who has written a few articles. There are many actual topic experts cited on the page (Ownby, Penny, Palmer, Schechter, Johnson, Chang, Gutmann, Matas and Kilgour), all of whom have written books about Falun Gong. None of them have said anything remotely like what Kavan did, which is directly contrary to actual Falun Gong teachings. For example, compare Kavan’s claim that Li instructed followers to lie to the quotes from Ownby at fn. 51 (Li enjoins cultivators to practice truth in their lives) or Penny at fn. 53 (“in Falun Gong cultivation adherence to the code of truth, compassion, and forbearance is not just regarded as the right and responsible course of action for practitioners; it is an essential part of the cultivation process. Lapsing from it will render any other efforts in cultivation worthless.") JackUpdike (talk) 13:11, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Excellent cherry picking - but the fact that a source is silent on a point does not mean that it disagrees with that point. In any event, I just added a second source to the claim. MrOllie (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It’s not “cherry-picking” to cite what knowledgeable experts who have written books about Falun Gong have said about the essence of Falun Gong teachings.
- The source you added, James R. Lewis, is a professor at Wuhan University. He has cranked out anti-Falun Gong material since he began attending CCP-sponsored “anti-cult” propaganda conferences in Wuhan (in 2016 and 2017 at least), and then started making money in China through his Wuhan University associations. In July 2017, he promoted the anti-Falun Gong views of three Wuhan University professors at an international conference. https://www.cesnur.org/2017/jerusalem-program.htm. He co-edited a book, Enlightened Martyrdom, which includes contributions attacking Falun Gong from five Wuhan University professors (including Lewis and his co-editor). His writing regularly appears on the English-language version of Kaiwind, a CCP propaganda site dedicated to attacking Falun Gong. He also repeatedly cites to that website in his own writings, without disclosing that the Chinese government runs the site. Wuhan University hired Lewis while the CCP was in the midst of a “shopping campaign” for Western experts willing to attack Falun Gong. https://bitterwinter.org/australian-academic-investigated/. As the New York Times reported, “all universities in [China] are controlled by the party,” and university professors are subject to the Ministry of Education’s ethics rules which prohibit them from doing “anything to contradict the authority of the party.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/world/asia/china-student-informers.html. It’s irresponsible to use Lewis or any of his Wuhan University colleagues as a source on topics concerning Falun Gong. JackUpdike (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- You're not going to get anywhere by heaping attacks on Lewis, who wasn't even employed by Wuhan at the time he wrote what I cited. MrOllie (talk) 22:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe not, but before he published the article you cited he had already started cooperating with Wuhan University professors to bolster their anti-Falun Gong efforts, and he had already attended CCP propaganda conferences in Wuhan. JackUpdike (talk) 23:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- You're not going to get anywhere by heaping attacks on Lewis, who wasn't even employed by Wuhan at the time he wrote what I cited. MrOllie (talk) 22:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Kavan is a topic expert, as she has researched journalism, writing, speech and religion.[1]. Her religion research spans Buddhism to New Age spirituality, including new religious movements of which Falun Gong is one.[2] The Falun Gong doesn't like her because she calls it as she sees it rather than bending to their pressure. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- It appears that Kavan has a PhD in Religious Studies from Victoria University of Wellington. Given this, she may in fact be a subject matter expert. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:15, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- She is clearly a topic expect, stop lying. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:39, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- My point (perhaps expressed too glibly before) is that Kavan is not qualified on the topic the same way as the topic experts I mentioned, each of whom have deeply engaged with the subject matter and written books about Falun Gong. Again Horse Eye, the personal attack is uncalled for. I’m trying in good faith to explain my positions on this important and sensitive topic. JackUpdike (talk) 21:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Excellent cherry picking - but the fact that a source is silent on a point does not mean that it disagrees with that point. In any event, I just added a second source to the claim. MrOllie (talk) 13:19, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- She’s not a topic expert; she’s a professor of “speech writing” who has written a few articles. There are many actual topic experts cited on the page (Ownby, Penny, Palmer, Schechter, Johnson, Chang, Gutmann, Matas and Kilgour), all of whom have written books about Falun Gong. None of them have said anything remotely like what Kavan did, which is directly contrary to actual Falun Gong teachings. For example, compare Kavan’s claim that Li instructed followers to lie to the quotes from Ownby at fn. 51 (Li enjoins cultivators to practice truth in their lives) or Penny at fn. 53 (“in Falun Gong cultivation adherence to the code of truth, compassion, and forbearance is not just regarded as the right and responsible course of action for practitioners; it is an essential part of the cultivation process. Lapsing from it will render any other efforts in cultivation worthless.") JackUpdike (talk) 13:11, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not well equipped to judge whether Kavan correctly interpreted Li. Per WP:PRIMARYSOURCE we cannot interpret primary sources, such as Li's speech. However, the claim made by Kavan may be a WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim since it is a
[Report] of a statement by someone that seems out of character or against an interest they had previously defended
—Falun Gong explicitly lists "truthfulness" as a principle. Since it concerns Li, who is a living person, it may be wise to err on the side of caution unless the claim is corroborated by other sources.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)- It is so corroborated , as I mentioned a few comments up I just added a second source. MrOllie (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- As I noted above, the “second source” Mr. Ollie added is a professor at a Chinese University who has collaborated for years with the CCP propaganda apparatus. The purpose of this talk page should be to maintain an accurate page, not to find whatever antagonistic sources are out there to smear Falun Gong. JackUpdike (talk) 21:57, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is so corroborated , as I mentioned a few comments up I just added a second source. MrOllie (talk) 15:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- In any case, the statement is out of place and undue as part of the beliefs section—the article makes a sudden digression from introducing the main beliefs of Falun Gong to the allegations levelled by one specific scholar, before veering back into discussion of Falun Gong's main beliefs. I do not believe there is enough coverage in RS to justify this level of prominence for this allegation, and it should be demoted to a non-wikivoice claim in the reception section at the very least. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 10:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
If the statement is kept, should it be demoted to a less prominent position for style and due weight?
This contested statement is currently in a very prominent position—right in the middle of a paragraph introducing Falun Gong's core beliefs. This seems to be problematic because (1) it breaks the flow of the paragraph and is followed by more description of the group's core beliefs that proceeds as though the intervening sentence didn't exist and (2) it is undue to give the statement such a prominent position when it is a claim or accusation made by two scholars rather than a broad consensus among reliable sources.
I believe this should be moved to the reception section. Per WP:CRIT, it is appropriate to use a reception/criticism section instead of interleaving criticisms in the rest of the article for articles about religions or viewpoints. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 02:01, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not at all. Scholars define the topic, and Kavan is backed by Lewis in calling out the hypocrisy of having "truth" as a central tenet when the members are instructed to lie about certain aspects. You are calling for a demotion of scholars which is not how it works. Binksternet (talk) 03:02, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- The number and prominence of scholarly sources is a key part of how scholars are supposed to
define the topic
, per due weight and other guidelines. Two scholars is not a lot, so the statement does not deserve to be placed right in the middle of the paragraph describing the Falun Gong's core teachings in a way that completely disrupts the flow of the paragraph. If the vast majority of scholars concluded the Falun Gong's practitioners were by and large mendacious, and were doing so at the behest of its founder, then it would be justified to put such a statement in a prominent position, but such a consensus among sources simply doesn't exist. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 03:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)- It is placed where it is relevant, which is exactly where it should appear. I do not find that is 'disrupts the flow of the paragraph' whatsoever. If you want to show that this is a fringe belief, you would need to cite a source that indicates that the 'vast majority of scholars' disagree with this position. Silence does not imply disagreement. MrOllie (talk) 12:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sentence 2 in the paragraph introduces the three core principles of Falun Gong—zhen, shan, ren—and sentence 4 talks about the centrality of these principles. Sentence 2 clearly leads to sentence 4 more directly and logically than it does to sentence 3. I think most readers would find that the paragraph takes a big detour. Even if this sentence does not have to be downgraded in terms of due weight, it should still be moved elsewhere in the paragraph.
- And no, a claim doesn't have to be a fringe belief for its prominent inclusion to be undue. For example, an individual study in a specific subfield of economics, biology, or physics could very well be well-respected by mainstream scholars, but it still would be undue to put that individual study in a prominent position in the main article for economics, biology, or physics if reliable sources don't accord it that much importance.
- If reliable sources aren't prominently talking about the claim in the statement, we shouldn't discuss it prominently either. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 00:25, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- It is placed where it is relevant, which is exactly where it should appear. I do not find that is 'disrupts the flow of the paragraph' whatsoever. If you want to show that this is a fringe belief, you would need to cite a source that indicates that the 'vast majority of scholars' disagree with this position. Silence does not imply disagreement. MrOllie (talk) 12:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- The number and prominence of scholarly sources is a key part of how scholars are supposed to
Freedom House called "obscure"
The categorization section has a sentence calling Freedom House an obscure think tank. As think tanks go it is one of the bigger ones and the sentence reads as just attacking the source for supporting Falun Gong.
Would recommend a change to something more NPOV 2A02:C7C:4E2C:1900:1891:B07F:A6CE:CEDA (talk) 13:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- • Done per WP:V, because the description was not in the cited source or its own Wikipedia article. Thanks. Llll5032 (talk) 14:29, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2022
“The practice initially enjoyed support from Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials, but by the mid-to-late 1990s the government increasingly viewed Falun Gong as a potential threat due to its size, independence and spiritual teachings.” A comma should be added before “and”. Speatle (talk to me) please ping me when replying to something I said. 16:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Done —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 07:00, 23 May 2022 (UTC)