Azerbaijanis is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||
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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 4, 2004. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that Azerbaijanis live in Iran, Georgia, Turkey, Iraq and the United States, as well as Azerbaijan? | |||||||||||||
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Lead
Sweetkind5 took out "Turkic" from the background part in the lead, reverting to: "....are a Turkic ethnic group with mixed Caucasian and Iranian background.[48][49][50]". I reverted this, because it seems to imply they are a Turkic speaking ethnic group with Caucasian and Iranian background only. This misrepresents sources. Eg: "The Azeris are a Turkic people, the descendants of early Caucasian peoples with later Persian and Turkic admixtures" [1] Bogazicili (talk) 08:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Infobox image
How correct is it to use an image of few Azerbaijanis to represent the whole ethnic group? Most other ethnic group articles don't have images like this. Should we remove it? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:19, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Most others may not have them because there may not be an appropriate image to use. There are also many others that do carry such images. I personally prefer for the image to stay as I think that it has what it takes to be an infobox image: it is colourful, positive and representative of the traditional culture. It is by no means there to make any racial generalisations. Parishan (talk) 12:40, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- For some background, me and Parishan discussed this here a bit. About this discussion, I don't think a lot of people have this talk page on their watchlist, so they might not see this. Should we perhaps open an RfC to have more people comment on the issue? Also, I think if absolutely were to use an image, it would be better to use a more historic photo like it's done in Hungarians and Mongols. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:45, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- If a historical photo is acceptable "to represent the whole ethnic group", why would this modern photo not be? Parishan (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Because they're images the ancestors of those people, rather than the modern mixed-ethnicity ones. Also, the current image seems to have some filter on. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- The image on Mongols features one single person and is from 1913. Could he possibly be the ancestor of the entire people? I doubt it. The image on Hungarians is an artistic and not factual representation of the early Hungarians. Hence, I still fail to see a problem with the photograph in this article. Parishan (talk) 12:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Parishan, per MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, we can't use an image or several images of a member of ethnic groups in an article about ethnic groups, simply to show how they look like. This has been established through 2 different RfCs, so I don't think this is an opinion-matter anymore. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:35, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- What you are referring to has nothing to do with the kind of image we are discussing here. An "ethnic gallery" refers to collages of visuals depicting renowned people of a given ethnicity placed in the infobox, which was a common practice on Wikipedia some years ago. This practice was voted down because it created too much controversy as to whether or not one or multiple famous persons depicted in the collage really did represent the ethnic group in question (e.g. was Tesla Serb or Croat?) or identify with it (e.g. can Nizami or Ismail I be considered Azeri?). The picture in this article is not a gallery and does not depict anyone whose identity can be legitimately questioned. Parishan (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Parishan, it still has the same idea though. It was disallowed because it tried to represent the ethnic group in question with image of few people. And in this case, we're representing 30+ million people with an image of 7 girls. You can have the image somewhere in the article body, but having it in the infobox is not appropriate in my opinion. If you don't agree, then we can invite a WP:3O which can give a more uninvolved opinion. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Both discussions specify that the kind of visuals that are not admissible is portrait galleries. Therefore, it is nowhere near the same idea because after said practice was abolished, most galleries (including the Azeri one) were replaced by pictures of ordinary folk, such as this one, and no one at the time found this in violation of the RfC you are referring to. Before inviting a third party, I would really like to understand what I am arguing against here because the argument of "seven girls representing 30 million people" seems a rather strange and awkward starting point: no one claims or has ever claimed that the photo was there to "represent 30 million people" and no one can possibly find a photo that would depict all 30 million people, and that is not what infoboxes are for. This is simply a photo of Azeri girls in ethnic clothes in an article dedicated to ethnic Azeris. What exactly is the trouble with this photo? Parishan (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are usually the thing most people view first, which is why it includes the most important information from the article (e.g. the number of members of ethnicity, where they live, their language and etc.). By including an image of 7 girls in the infobox as the first thing readers see, we'd be implying that these 7 girls are a good example of how all ethnic Azerbaijanis look. Thus, they'd be representing the whole ethnicity. This is one of the reasons that most ethnicity articles don't have images of their ethnic members. The problem isn't with the specific photo, but the fact that we're using few people to represent the many. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- I really doubt that anyone in the right mind would look at a picture of seven persons and imagine that the other 30 million look exactly like that. Perhaps there is something in your argument that I am still missing but based on my current interpretation, I truly fail to see how this can even remotely be a problem. Parishan (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- No one would imagine that 30 million people look exactly like that, but the image of the girls would give them the idea that Azerbaijanis generally look like that. I'll be inviting the 3O now. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why would you assume that "the image of the girls would give them the idea that Azerbaijanis generally look like that"? And if it does (which I doubt), why is that a problem? And why, in that case, would you be more accepting of a vintage photo, as you suggested earlier? By that logic, it should be considered even more controversial as "30 million people" today certainly do not look like a farmer or a seamstress from a nineteenth-century portrait. Parishan (talk) 17:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why I would assume that? What other idea is an image of 7 girls as the first thing in the article about an ethnic group is supposed to give? I'm quite surprised that you're asking me how that assumption is a problem. It's a problem because we're representing 30-35 million people with a filtered image of 7 random girls. By "vintage photo", I meant that a more iconic, historic photo (e.g. some very famous artwork depicting that ethnicity). I'd rather not include them either, but if we absolutely had to include an image, I'd prefer that over the current image of random girls. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:13, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, the image is not filtered. The filter tag has been there from a previous lower-quality upload but since Mr. Litvin sent me a higher-resolution version, I just uploaded it over the older one. Second of all, this picture is also a work of art: it is not a random shot made by a tourist passing by but one produced by a professional photographer and featured in an American-published periodical. Thirdly, I do believe that this photo is iconic enough for an infobox since it depicts a symbolic and culturally significant context. Lastly, I am still puzzled as to why one should perceive this image as an accurate representation of 30 million people and why one would even have such an expectation of a Wikipedia infobox image, considering how widespread this practice is on this and other encyclopedias. Parishan (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- It does seem to me that the colours of the image have been filtered. By "iconic" I didn't mean "symbolic", I meant very famous works of art. Regardless, not sure why we're discussing this as it's not related to the inclusion/removal of the current image. I hope the 3O will help us clear out any confusions, including yours about why someone would assume that, as it seems I can't. — CuriousGolden (T·
- First of all, the image is not filtered. The filter tag has been there from a previous lower-quality upload but since Mr. Litvin sent me a higher-resolution version, I just uploaded it over the older one. Second of all, this picture is also a work of art: it is not a random shot made by a tourist passing by but one produced by a professional photographer and featured in an American-published periodical. Thirdly, I do believe that this photo is iconic enough for an infobox since it depicts a symbolic and culturally significant context. Lastly, I am still puzzled as to why one should perceive this image as an accurate representation of 30 million people and why one would even have such an expectation of a Wikipedia infobox image, considering how widespread this practice is on this and other encyclopedias. Parishan (talk) 17:20, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why I would assume that? What other idea is an image of 7 girls as the first thing in the article about an ethnic group is supposed to give? I'm quite surprised that you're asking me how that assumption is a problem. It's a problem because we're representing 30-35 million people with a filtered image of 7 random girls. By "vintage photo", I meant that a more iconic, historic photo (e.g. some very famous artwork depicting that ethnicity). I'd rather not include them either, but if we absolutely had to include an image, I'd prefer that over the current image of random girls. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:13, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why would you assume that "the image of the girls would give them the idea that Azerbaijanis generally look like that"? And if it does (which I doubt), why is that a problem? And why, in that case, would you be more accepting of a vintage photo, as you suggested earlier? By that logic, it should be considered even more controversial as "30 million people" today certainly do not look like a farmer or a seamstress from a nineteenth-century portrait. Parishan (talk) 17:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- No one would imagine that 30 million people look exactly like that, but the image of the girls would give them the idea that Azerbaijanis generally look like that. I'll be inviting the 3O now. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- I really doubt that anyone in the right mind would look at a picture of seven persons and imagine that the other 30 million look exactly like that. Perhaps there is something in your argument that I am still missing but based on my current interpretation, I truly fail to see how this can even remotely be a problem. Parishan (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are usually the thing most people view first, which is why it includes the most important information from the article (e.g. the number of members of ethnicity, where they live, their language and etc.). By including an image of 7 girls in the infobox as the first thing readers see, we'd be implying that these 7 girls are a good example of how all ethnic Azerbaijanis look. Thus, they'd be representing the whole ethnicity. This is one of the reasons that most ethnicity articles don't have images of their ethnic members. The problem isn't with the specific photo, but the fact that we're using few people to represent the many. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:39, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Both discussions specify that the kind of visuals that are not admissible is portrait galleries. Therefore, it is nowhere near the same idea because after said practice was abolished, most galleries (including the Azeri one) were replaced by pictures of ordinary folk, such as this one, and no one at the time found this in violation of the RfC you are referring to. Before inviting a third party, I would really like to understand what I am arguing against here because the argument of "seven girls representing 30 million people" seems a rather strange and awkward starting point: no one claims or has ever claimed that the photo was there to "represent 30 million people" and no one can possibly find a photo that would depict all 30 million people, and that is not what infoboxes are for. This is simply a photo of Azeri girls in ethnic clothes in an article dedicated to ethnic Azeris. What exactly is the trouble with this photo? Parishan (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Parishan, it still has the same idea though. It was disallowed because it tried to represent the ethnic group in question with image of few people. And in this case, we're representing 30+ million people with an image of 7 girls. You can have the image somewhere in the article body, but having it in the infobox is not appropriate in my opinion. If you don't agree, then we can invite a WP:3O which can give a more uninvolved opinion. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:09, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- What you are referring to has nothing to do with the kind of image we are discussing here. An "ethnic gallery" refers to collages of visuals depicting renowned people of a given ethnicity placed in the infobox, which was a common practice on Wikipedia some years ago. This practice was voted down because it created too much controversy as to whether or not one or multiple famous persons depicted in the collage really did represent the ethnic group in question (e.g. was Tesla Serb or Croat?) or identify with it (e.g. can Nizami or Ismail I be considered Azeri?). The picture in this article is not a gallery and does not depict anyone whose identity can be legitimately questioned. Parishan (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Parishan, per MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, we can't use an image or several images of a member of ethnic groups in an article about ethnic groups, simply to show how they look like. This has been established through 2 different RfCs, so I don't think this is an opinion-matter anymore. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:35, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- The image on Mongols features one single person and is from 1913. Could he possibly be the ancestor of the entire people? I doubt it. The image on Hungarians is an artistic and not factual representation of the early Hungarians. Hence, I still fail to see a problem with the photograph in this article. Parishan (talk) 12:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Because they're images the ancestors of those people, rather than the modern mixed-ethnicity ones. Also, the current image seems to have some filter on. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:49, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- If a historical photo is acceptable "to represent the whole ethnic group", why would this modern photo not be? Parishan (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- For some background, me and Parishan discussed this here a bit. About this discussion, I don't think a lot of people have this talk page on their watchlist, so they might not see this. Should we perhaps open an RfC to have more people comment on the issue? Also, I think if absolutely were to use an image, it would be better to use a more historic photo like it's done in Hungarians and Mongols. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:45, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
C) 17:24, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- The "No ethnic galleries" policy states verbatim that "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a photomontage or gallery of images of group members; see this and this thread for the most recent consensus discussion on the topic." CuriousGolden is correct. Ardenter (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- The image in question is not a photomontage nor a gallery of images. The policy is not applicable here. Parishan (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Ardenter could you address Parishan's concern above as a 3O, so we can reach a consensus? Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- The image in question is not a photomontage nor a gallery of images. The policy is not applicable here. Parishan (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- The "No ethnic galleries" policy states verbatim that "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a photomontage or gallery of images of group members; see this and this thread for the most recent consensus discussion on the topic." CuriousGolden is correct. Ardenter (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
The discussions referred to above were very specifically about galleries, not individual images - I seem to recall that one ethnic group had over 48 images in the infobox, with more being added daily, and repeated additions/deletions/rearrangements by people including their favourites, and moving them to the top/deleting people they didn't like, or moving them to the bottom. Such galleries also looked a mess even on a desktop, goodness knows what it was like on a phone. Arjayay (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC) (talk page stalker)
- While the policy refers only to a number of images, the point of the policy is to avoid having an image "represent" an ethnic group. Parishan CuriousGolden
Agree per Curious Golden. ChillManChill (talk) 10:56, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with the current infobox image and it hasn't been an issue for some time. Showing ethnic groups in traditional dresses is very much encyclopedic and standard for such articles. Per Arjayay above, what was actually deprecated in ethnic infoboxes are galleries of various notable persons which is not the case here. Brandmeistertalk 18:20, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
If none of you agree with the third opinion provided by Ardenter, then I believe best step would be to take this to WP:DR. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
Massive revert
Wikaviani made a massive revert [2], saying "Reverted to older version. Please follow WP:BRD and take your concerns to the talk, as most of the sources of the genetics section are secondary sources and many of your your edits seem to go against WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. Thanks" I undid this revert.
First of all, all sources in genetics section were primary, as they were not review articles (ie: secondary sources). Second, I did not delete anything (besides the part about Maziar Ashrafian Bonab). I fixed misrepresentation of sources, and added information from a secondary source (a review article). This information [3] is from a secondary source. Sources like these [4] are primary sources, as they are not review articles. This study [5] was misrepresented, that was fixed here: [6]. These two sources [7] [8] are not saying the same thing, which was also fixed here [9]. Results of same study were repeated twice, which was also fixed [10].
I think reverting these changes meets the definition of disruptive editing, or the person reverting did not read the edit summaries. However making a false claim that sources in the genetics section were secondary sources is really questionable, as it should have been easy to check they are primary sources. Not to mention, Wikaviani re-added information from an unreliable source (about the research of Maziar Ashrafian Bonab), even though I had created a talk section above (Talk:Azerbaijanis#Maziar_Ashrafian_Bonab). Bogazicili (talk) 07:08, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Neutrality and Original Research
Regarding the below part in the Origins of the Azerbaijanis section:
"Most academics view the linguistic Turkicisation of predominantly non-Turkic-speaking indigenous peoples and assimilation of small populations of Turkic tribes as the most likely origin for the people of Azerbaijan.[66]:6–7"
I have the full pdf of "The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity under Russian Rule", and there is no such thing in those pages to justify that sentence. It says Azeri Turks pay special attention to Caucasian Albania and Atropatene, and consider modern Azerbaijan as heir to Caucasian Albania. But there is no such thing to justify the quoted sentence. On the contrary:
The History of Azerbaijan noted incursions by Turkic speaking groups from “the beginning of our era,” which increased in the 5th to the 7th and the 9th to the 11th centuries.28 Ashurbeyli stated that “from antiquity” the Shirvan region had been a place where Caucasian-, Iranian-, and Turkish-speaking tribes mingled and argued that “in the 6th century intensive migrations of Turks into Aran, Shirvan, and Mughan occurred”29 p. 5 |
So I will be deleting that sentence and adding an Original Research tag, until other sources can be verified, because this is not the first time I've seen misrepresentation of sources (see above section).
Also we have giant quotes from Russian, Arab historians, as well as from Encyclopaedia Iranica, but there seems to be no viewpoints from Azeri historians in this section. As such I'm also putting a neutrality tag. The source I quoted has bunch of information from Azeri historians, none of this is in this Wiki article. Bogazicili (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- "Azeri historians" are pretty un-notable and notorious for their radical ethnic bias (like most former Soviet republics). See Historical negationism and Caucasian Albania, both articles provide countless sources on the unreliability of azeri "historians", and their revisionist campaigns to turkify the entire history of the region. That's why Western and Russian sources, as well as primary historical sources are used. For example that claim by that azeri that there were mass influxes of turkics in the 6th century is not found in any non-turkic source at all, neither primary nor secondary. --Qahramani44 (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you read the source "The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity under Russian Rule" by Audrey L. Altstadt [11], Azeri historians opinions are still mentioned. Everything should be presented in a balanced manner per sources. Bogazicili (talk) 13:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence: "Modern-day Azerbaijanis are believed to be primarily the descendants of the Caucasian Albanian[115][116] and Iranian peoples[117][118][119][120] who lived in the areas of the Caucasus and north of Iran, respectively, prior to Turkification." Lets go over source by source:
- [12] "Caucasus Albanians, the ancestors of the Azerbaidjanians of Shirvans" Seems to be ok.
- [13] "The Albanians in the eastern plain leading down to the Caspian Sea mixed with the Turkish population and eventually became Muslims.....while the eastern Transcaucasian countryside was home to a very large Turkic-speaking Muslim population. The Russians referred to them as Tartars, but we now consider them Azerbaijanis, a distinct people with their own language and culture." Does not support "primarily the descendants of the Caucasian" claim. On the contrary, supports mixed claim. This is another example of original research. The above quote comes from a very reliable source by the way Ronald G. Suny
- [14] this is ok too
- [15] primary source, not ok
- [16] and [17] are tertiary sources. Wikipedia should use secondary sources whenever possible. However, lets also accept these sources too. Only [18] supports mainly Iranian claim: "The Turkish speakers of Azerbaijan (q.v.) are mainly descended from the earlier Iranian speakers, several pockets of whom still exist in the region. A massive migration of Oghuz Turks in the 11th and 12th centuries gradually Turkified Azerbaijan as well as Anatolia."
What other sources say:
- "The ethnic origins of the Azeris are unclear. The prevailing view is that Azeris are a Turkic people, but there is also a claim that Azeris are Turkicized Caucasians or, as the Iranian official history claims, Turkicized Aryans." p. 6
- "If native Caucasian, Iranian, and Turkic populations - among others - dominated Azerbaijan from the fourth century CE onwards, the Turkic element would grow increasingly dominant in linguistic terms,5 while the Persian element retained strong cultural and religious influence.....Following the Seljuk great power period, the Turkic element in Azerbaijan was further strengthened by migrations during the Mongol onslaught of the thirteenth century and the subsequent domination by the Turkmen Qaraqoyunlu and Aq-qoyunlu dynasties." p. 5-6
- "The Azeris are a Turkic people, the descendants of early Caucasian peoples with later Persian and Turkic admixtures." p. 1766 (also a tertiary source)
Based on the sources above, it's clear that the current sentence does not comply with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Here's my suggestion:
The origin of Azerbaijanis has been described as "unclear" p. 6, mixed Caucasian and Turkish [19], mixed with Caucasian, Iranian and Turkic elements,p. 5-6p. 1766 mainly Caucasian[20], and mainly Iranian[21][22] |
Bogazicili (talk) 15:50, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Interesting article
Çakır Ceyhan Suvari, Elif Kanca. (2012). "Turkey and Azerbaijan: On the Myth of Sharing the same Origin and Culture." Iran and the Caucasus (16: 2). pp. 247-256[23]
Some passages and excerpts:
- "Various competing concepts have been developed in accordance with the varying policies to classify and define other societies that speak Turkic languages and practice Islam. The “Captive Turks” concept was first used by some Turkish politicians and academics to describe the peoples of the former Soviet republics, such as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan, where Turkic languages are spoken (see Ayan 2011; Polat 2008). The “Soviet invasion” has been shown as the primary reason for the significant cultural, economic, and political distance between these states and Turkey, as well as the main excuse for any unjust event that the states in question may have experienced."
- "Outside Turks” live outside the boundaries of the Turkish Republic. This conceptualisation refers to a homogeneous Turkish identity that stems from the same roots, shares a common culture, and speaks the same language. As a result of such an understanding, it is suggested that Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks and Kazaks are all Turkish peoples, ignoring all differences regarding culture, religion, and language. Turkey is the centre of this perception of “Turkishness”, the model of the super-ordinate identity presented to other Turkic societies. For this reason, some Turkish politicians and academics argue that "Outside Turks" are in need of Turkey’s protection, and only Turkey can provide a model for them (Gömeç 2007: 120)."
- "The criteria of “common origin” and “common language/culture” maintain their centrality in the definition of nation-state identity. Considering this, Turkish researchers who study the origin of Turks have stated that they, as one of the oldest societies of the world, have established large states and formed great civilisations throughout history. According to them, Russians are the first people responsible for the dividedness of “Turks” who currently live in different countries and form separate Asian states."
- "Regarding these “common origin”, or the so-called common social memory and culture, can it be said that Turks and Azerbaijanis represent a single homogeneous group? Historically, the population of Aran and Shirvan (present-day Azerbaijan Republic) and the Turkic-speaking inhabitants of the northwestern provinces of Iran, Aturpatakan, who are, infact, the real “Azebaijanis”, during many centuries, especially in the Safavid period, have been in permanent inimical relations with the Ottoman Turks. These groups, i.e. the peoples of Azerbaijan (Aturpatakan), the south-eastern Caucasus (Aran and Shirvan) and the Ottoman Turks not only competed but also represented two separate ideologies, respectively espousing Shi‘ite and Sunni Islam. The only common social memory of these communities is that of the mutual war and massacres. For instance, the Ottoman Sultan Selim Yavuz who is the first Sunni sultan to hold the title of caliph, in Azerbaijan Republic, in Iran and among Shi‘ites of Turkey is remembered as a butcher."
- "The people of the present-day Azerbaijan Republic has never been loyal to Turks and Turkishness., For instance, just in the beginning of the 20th century, the members of the Committee of Union and Progress (İttihad ve Terakki Cemiyeti) sought alliances under a Pan-Turkist ideology in the South Caucasus, but was not reciprocated by the people. there. Instead the latter allied with their co-religionists in Iran (Atabaki 2005: 33-42). This reveals that the identities of Azerbaijanis (or, to be more precise, the Turkic-speakers of Aran) and Turks have been formed upon different historical, ethnic and cultural substrates. Among these, the factor of religion plays here a very important role. The fact that most of the Azerbaijanis are Shi‘ites, whereas Turks are Sunnis, has caused significant distance between these two turkophone communities. Azerbaijanis have preferred Iranians, who belong to the same religious ideology, instead of their “linguistic relatives”, the Turks."
- "The national ideology of Turkish Republic, which considers itself the leader of the Turkic communities, views the others as “brothers” in a “single nation” with Turkey, of course, as the “big brother” and “protector”. Turkey considers itself the most advanced nation in terms of civilisation and culture and sees its role in teaching its “advanced” culture to these “Outside Turks” who barely survived from Russian “captivity”."
- "Although the “Single Nation, Two States” slogan and accompanying emphasis on “brotherhood” imply the sharing of a homogenous culture, simultaneously they have an implicit sense of “otherisation”. The concept of “outside” makes a reference to a “Turkishness” that is separate from “us”. The myth of sharing the same origin and the widely circulated term of “bortherhood” actually serve no significant purpose other than building a “me(us)/others” dichotomy. In terms of the “Turkishness” ideology in Turkey, which places its own national identity at the centre, "Outside Turks" are viewed as passive societies."
- "Although the mode of relations between the Turks in Turkey and the Turkophone Muslims of the South Caucasus (Azerbaijan Repubic) has radically shifted from antagonism and enmity to an expression of “brotherhood” after the emergence of the independent republic of Azerbaijan, still their relationship remains fragile and inconsistent, especially since Heydar Aliev came to power in 2002. In fact, the real relations between these two Turkic-speaking groups of the region begin upon the disintegration of the USSR. The previous history of their mutual ties, as we mentioned above, was nothing else than a constant chain of bloody events and atrocities."
- "Despite the intensity of the “single nation” cliché in daily and political life of Azerbaijan, it does not occupy as significant a place in Turkish political and popular discourse, which is reflected also in the textbooks. At different stages of Turkish primary and secondary education and in various spheres, including social sciences, history and geography, Azerbaijan, sui generis has not been considered a unique country. Instead, it is mentioned as part of the identity of the Turkish Republic (Erdoğdu 1996)."
- "Turkey locates its national identity, as the criterion, at the centre of the “Turkish (i.e. Turkic) World”. Turkish language is also central; Azerbaijani is reduced to a dialect of Turkish, degraded by that to a source of humour. In contrast to the expression of “brotherhood” and the idea of “single nation” repeated within political and academic environments, Turkish textbooks have not portrayed Azerbaijan in the same light. They do not describe this country as an independent state but place it on a low rung within the hierarchal order with regard to Turkey. The “brotherhood” emphasis that we see in the discursive level actually functions to cover the hegemony and “otherisation” process, which the ideology of the Turkish nation-state promotes."
- LouisAragon (talk) 13:05, 13 March 2021 (UTC)~
OK. So what do these articles have to do with the subject? There are also a lot wrong with the Republic of Turkey. Many of these so-called "articles" seem to have been written by people who are not trained in the subject. BörteçineKhagan (talk) 12:54, 14 March 2021 (UTC)BörteçineKhagan
This part of the sentence is so blatantly false and wrong
"have revived Azerbaijani nationalism."
How can something be revived if it never existed? The word "created" should replace "revived". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickofthisbs (talk • contribs) 07:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)