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English versus British
Is there a precedent for this? I've seen numerous IPs fighting and changing one to the other and back when describing an artist. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 22:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
- I've seen it as well. I would usually write British, but it depends on what RSes state. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- British people or Britons, also known colloquially as Brits, are the citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the British Overseas Territories, and the Crown dependencies. So an English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, Gibraltarian etc would be British. For example, a Welsh person could also be described British but not be as English. In American terms, it's a bit Californians -v- Texans - they are still Americans. This English Brit is not going to war of these definitions. LOL. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:33, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Richhoncho: back to my original question, what does that mean for referring to artist? Should we say English Singer Adele or British Singer Adele for example? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 12:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Assuming her place of birth as Walthamstow, London, it may be considered correct to call her English or British, English being a drill down from British, either would be correct, but not Welsh, Irish or Scottish. But I am sure somebody would come along with another opinion. --Richhoncho (talk) 16:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- And I would say neither, but for a different reason: singer should not be capitalized. Once that has been addressed, either would be acceptable. I would also use what most reliable sources refer to her as. For instance, AllMusic] writes English, but they are only a single source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- English and British are both correct - English is more specific, but nobody has an English passport. I often see editors edit-warring over these but wouldn't waste my time getting too involved. --Michig (talk) 15:32, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Michig, it's not something I'm going to waste my time arguing over. It seems to be more common that editors want to specify the country when the musical act is not English – see for example the description of the band in the first line of Deacon Blue, Stereophonics and Stiff Little Fingers. Having grown up in the UK during the 1970s and 1980s, I am well aware that calling Stiff Little Fingers "Northern Irish" is by far the least contentious description, and I'm happy to leave it at that. Richard3120 (talk) 17:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
- Assuming her place of birth as Walthamstow, London, it may be considered correct to call her English or British, English being a drill down from British, either would be correct, but not Welsh, Irish or Scottish. But I am sure somebody would come along with another opinion. --Richhoncho (talk) 16:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Richhoncho: back to my original question, what does that mean for referring to artist? Should we say English Singer Adele or British Singer Adele for example? ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 12:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
WP:NSONG
“ | Has been ranked on national or significant music or sales charts. (Note again that this indicates only that a song may be notable, not that it is notable.) | ” |
- So first the song is notable, but then it suddenly might not be notable? This point contradicts itself. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 12:26, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- I believe the sentiment is meant to be more like "it may be notable, but it's not confirmation that it's notable." Basically like, "it's a good sign that it's notable". It's basically so people dont go making one sentence article about every song that peaks at 99 on a Country chart or something. Third party sourcing and content to be written is still necessary. Sergecross73 msg me 13:10, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- Not seeing a contradiction here. The text that introduces the list of which this is one of the bullets says:
Any of the following factors suggest that a song or single may be notable enough that a search for coverage in reliable independent sources will be successful.
This is similar to other SNGs. e.g. WP:NSPORT begins:This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia.
Colin M (talk) 16:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)- WP:NALBUMS has similar ones too. They're not guarantees, but they're good indicators. And failing all of them is generally a pretty bad sign for notability as well. And some content areas just don't have them at all. We tried to draft up a WP:NVIDEOGAMES or something years back, and the community couldn't really come up with any industry-specific guidance. Sergecross73 msg me 19:07, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- No contradiction here. Charting alone is not enough. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 20:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NALBUMS has similar ones too. They're not guarantees, but they're good indicators. And failing all of them is generally a pretty bad sign for notability as well. And some content areas just don't have them at all. We tried to draft up a WP:NVIDEOGAMES or something years back, and the community couldn't really come up with any industry-specific guidance. Sergecross73 msg me 19:07, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Erpert, don't conflate "is" with "may be". They're not synonymous as your comment suggests. Such a common misconception is like saying "could be" (i.e. a possibility) has the same guarantee as "will be" (a definite). Contrary to what certain people think, entering a chart does not by itself inherently mean something warrants a page. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- I've had this discussion with Erpert before about Top of the World (Kimbra song), a song I don't think is the slightest bit notable (the NZ Hot Singles chart is not the main NZ chart, or even the NZ "bubbling under" chart, it's the bubbling under chart reserved exclusively for NZ artists, and it still only managed a single week on that chart). So I do think that Sergecross73's "one sentence article about every song that peaks at 99 on a Country chart or something" is valid here. Richard3120 (talk) 17:28, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
- I see people act like "may be notable" means "is notable" a lot, not just with music. It gets really tiring having to repeatedly explain the difference. IMO the various guidelines should have the word changed or clarified so there isn't the ambiguity or disagreements about it anymore. I think way to many people misunderstand the language to just chalk it up to a lack of understanding by any individual person though. The wording just isn't as clear as it could and should be. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have a suggested wording? Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- "can be notable if", "Might be notable if"? I'm sure there's other other ways to phrase it if either of those don't work. I'm not really hung up on the exact wording though. I'd be just as happy with there being a disclaimer that "may" is not a guarantee of notability and WP:GNG or whatever special notability guideline still needs to be applied even when one of the criteria are met. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- Unless we add a sentence along the lines of "However, meeting any of the criteria below should not be taken to mean that the song is definitely notable; an article should still have enough sources to be able to create a reasonable amount of prose, and not just contain tables of chart positions or certifications". Richard3120 (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support something along those lines. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would as well. I cannot comment on other project though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:42, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Would support this! ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 12:12, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support something along those lines. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Unless we add a sentence along the lines of "However, meeting any of the criteria below should not be taken to mean that the song is definitely notable; an article should still have enough sources to be able to create a reasonable amount of prose, and not just contain tables of chart positions or certifications". Richard3120 (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- "can be notable if", "Might be notable if"? I'm sure there's other other ways to phrase it if either of those don't work. I'm not really hung up on the exact wording though. I'd be just as happy with there being a disclaimer that "may" is not a guarantee of notability and WP:GNG or whatever special notability guideline still needs to be applied even when one of the criteria are met. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have a suggested wording? Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- I see people act like "may be notable" means "is notable" a lot, not just with music. It gets really tiring having to repeatedly explain the difference. IMO the various guidelines should have the word changed or clarified so there isn't the ambiguity or disagreements about it anymore. I think way to many people misunderstand the language to just chalk it up to a lack of understanding by any individual person though. The wording just isn't as clear as it could and should be. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Pre-LP era acts and their notability
- As an editor with an interest in the music of the 1930s, 40s and 50s, parts of the notability criteria concern me. Quote: "5. Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)." This is biased against those artists who achieved notability in the pre-LP era, ie. those who careers may have petered out before 1950 or thereabouts - that's about sixty years of recording history. I would suggest that as the standard was for an LP to have 12 tracks, this criteria should be modified for popular artists of the pre-LP era who recorded a large output for major labels: the equivalent could apply, namely 24 recordings, or 12 45/78rpm singles for a major label. There is also the possibility that a major label has re-issued the artist's work on two or more compilation albums, which the criteria could address.
- Additionally, conferring notability based on sales charts and certification awards also skews the criteria against pre-LP era artists. There were no widely accepted American sales charts before 1940, and in the UK, before 1952 - see "2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart. 3. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country." Now, many of the performers I'm thinking of would probably qualify under other criteria on the list, such as "7. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city; note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability." Given the significance of radio in the pre-LP era, this would also apply: "12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network." But in any case, I would propose some tweaking of the criteria to allow for artists who were prolific on 45/78rpm but never released an LP (particularly in the era before albums).--TrottieTrue (talk) 15:30, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's right to say these criteria skew against them, unless you are seeing practice in AfD biasing against early artists because they fail to meet these specific criteria. (I haven't seen much of that, but I am not watching super closely.) There are a number of other criteria that pre-LP/chart artists may meet that equally qualify them for inclusion. I think one more criterion that should be explicitly added is: if the artist has an entry in any major/reputable music encylopedia, that confers notability. That would also cover, e.g., a lot of early folk artists, jazz musicians, popular songwriters from before the rock'n'roll era, and art-music composers that don't conform to the chart/sales/streaming paradigms that usually govern success in the modern music era. I'm not opposed to some broadening adjustments for early recording artists, but I guess we'd need a more concrete proposal to consider. Chubbles (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply. No, I’m not suggesting that such articles are more likely to go through AfD, just that those particular notability tests are more difficult for pre-rock or pre-LP acts to pass. I’d agree that if these performers are in a major encyclopaedia, that should qualify them for notability here. I think AllMusic uses Muze or similar for biographical information. I recently wrote an article about Steve Conway, whose career preceded both the album and sales chart era in the UK. He probably meets other notability criteria though, and is in the The Encyclopedia of Popular Music, published by Oxford University Press. That probably goes for other contemporary British artists of that era, whose careers have been largely neglected. Conway never recorded an album, but EMI issued compilations of his recordings.—TrottieTrue (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's right to say these criteria skew against them, unless you are seeing practice in AfD biasing against early artists because they fail to meet these specific criteria. (I haven't seen much of that, but I am not watching super closely.) There are a number of other criteria that pre-LP/chart artists may meet that equally qualify them for inclusion. I think one more criterion that should be explicitly added is: if the artist has an entry in any major/reputable music encylopedia, that confers notability. That would also cover, e.g., a lot of early folk artists, jazz musicians, popular songwriters from before the rock'n'roll era, and art-music composers that don't conform to the chart/sales/streaming paradigms that usually govern success in the modern music era. I'm not opposed to some broadening adjustments for early recording artists, but I guess we'd need a more concrete proposal to consider. Chubbles (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Local musicians
With everybody and their brother having a soundcloud these days and a number of bands playing local bars, to what extent is a musician considered "notable"? Specifically I'm looking at the Jeremiah Skiba article, but I could see this question applying to any number of local acts. Lindsey40186 (talk) 22:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Usually if they are anything like notable, they will have been noticed by something more than just local event listings magazines, even if it's just in their local area. In the case of Skeeba, none of the sources look reliable to me anyway, and I would send it to AfD: the first and last sources are the same identically-worded promotional press release, sources 2 and 3 are user-generated websites, and the fourth is just a copy of the fifth source, reproduced on the management website of the artist for promotional purposes... and that fifth source just looks like a local blog to me, and in any case it's an interview with the artist which makes it fail WP:PRIMARY. Richard3120 (talk) 14:51, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion for guideline
Musicians who performed at a major musical event (e.g. Eurovision, Coachella, Sziget) should be considered notable. --80.95.71.0 (talk) 10:57, 12 June 2022 (UTC)