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Futhermore, at least younger speakers of Rioplatense Spanish have no marginal phonemes since {{IPAblink|ʃ}} in ''show'' is the same as their ordinary {{IPAblink|ʃ}} spelled ''ll'' and ''y''. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 14:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC) |
Futhermore, at least younger speakers of Rioplatense Spanish have no marginal phonemes since {{IPAblink|ʃ}} in ''show'' is the same as their ordinary {{IPAblink|ʃ}} spelled ''ll'' and ''y''. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 14:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC) |
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: This discussion belongs on the talk page relevant to the article Spanish language, not here, as IPA is not in question. I'll copy it to there. [[User:Barefoot through the chollas|Barefoot through the chollas]] ([[User talk:Barefoot through the chollas|talk]]) 17:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC) |
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Pizza
I understand that revision 1006104540 added the word pizza to the 'tz' section, but added the deleted 'd͡ʒ'. They deleted that because a user said 'that's ɟʝ in our system'. I'm also not happy with velar consonants and labial consonants being velar consonants and labial consonants. Yours truly, Kurisumasen (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
They deleted that because a user said 'that's ɟʝ in our system'.
And?- Whether you're happy with it is irrelevant here.
[[foo]]s
is preferred because it's shorter. See MOS:PIPESTYLE. In fact AWB by default automatically shortens links like[[foo|foos]]
. Nardog (talk) 17:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)- Yes, but also I want to know about the word "pizza". This is really Italian. It is also used in other languages. Kurisumasen (talk) 18:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Wiktionary says it's pronounced variously in Spanish. But even when pronounced with [ts], it's just heterosyllabic [t.s] (just like in English, which also lacks /ts/ as a phoneme), which is different from the case of abertzale. Removed it. Nardog (talk) 18:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you so much! Kurisumasen (talk) 18:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Wiktionary says it's pronounced variously in Spanish. But even when pronounced with [ts], it's just heterosyllabic [t.s] (just like in English, which also lacks /ts/ as a phoneme), which is different from the case of abertzale. Removed it. Nardog (talk) 18:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but also I want to know about the word "pizza". This is really Italian. It is also used in other languages. Kurisumasen (talk) 18:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Can you see what you wrote? I paraphrase, "I'm also not happy with <this link> and <that link>, linked in the way I prefer and at odds with MOS:PIPESTYLE, being <this link> and <that link>, linked according to that MOS". You realize that they work exactly the same, no? Not only that, the way those links look is the same. Sol505000 (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but the other links are the way I like it:
[[Rhotic consonant|rhotic consonants]]
and[[Labial consonant|labial consonants]]
. So, it should be like that to me. Kurisumasen (talk) 10:18, 23 August 2021 (UTC)- "The way I like it" is a good reason for a bold initial edit, but a less optimal reason for subsequent edits when others have raised substantial concerns (here: per MOS). And apart from the MOS, WP:NOPIPE puts the whole thing very nicely. There is nothing wrong with building new content with large pipes like
[[Rhotic consonant|rhotic consonants]]
. But changing old code to this style for the heck of it, or edit warring when someone changes[[Rhotic consonant|rhotic consonants]]
to[[Rhotic consonant]]s
for the sake of a readable code is the road towards disruptive editing, which we also often see with WP:NOTBROKEN "fixing". –Austronesier (talk) 10:41, 23 August 2021 (UTC)- Though I use my wording better:
[[Aztec|Aztecs]]
, not[[Aztec]]s
. --Kurisumasen (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2021 (UTC)- I've never seen WP:EDITWARRING over a sillier thing. Sol505000 (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- OK, let’s leave it like that then.Kurisumasen (talk) 21:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I've never seen WP:EDITWARRING over a sillier thing. Sol505000 (talk) 14:33, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Though I use my wording better:
- "The way I like it" is a good reason for a bold initial edit, but a less optimal reason for subsequent edits when others have raised substantial concerns (here: per MOS). And apart from the MOS, WP:NOPIPE puts the whole thing very nicely. There is nothing wrong with building new content with large pipes like
- Yes, but the other links are the way I like it:
Gilda
How is Gilda an example for /ʃ/? --Error (talk) 23:44, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
- We could ask Sheila1988, who added it, presumably to make our guide consistent with Gilda (Argentine singer). — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 03:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my intention, although it's possible that only some dialects pronounce it like that.Sheila1988 (talk) 18:08, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- First time I hear about it. In Spain, both Gilda (film) and es:gilda (pincho) are pronounced as [xilða]. If kept, it should link to that particular case. --Error (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- AS far as I can find it's an argentinian pronunciation.Sheila1988 (talk) 19:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- So it's [ˈɟʝilda] in our system. We don't transcribe sheísmo/zheísmo. Sol505000 (talk) 20:08, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) AFAICS, the name of the singer Gilda is actually an example for /ʝ/, since [ʃ] is the typical modern Rioplatense realization of supraregional /ʝ/ (and also of /ʎ/ because of yeísmo). In this video, the presenter speaks says [ˈʃilda] consistent with her accent, but the voice-over speaker with a more "supraregional"(?) accent says [ɟʝilda] (0:50) and (phrase-internally) [aðeˈmaɦ ðe ˈʝilda] (3:05). So unless we really want to emulate a dialectal pronunciation, the example should be moved from /ʃ/ to /ʝ/, or taken out completely. –Austronesier (talk) 20:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- In any case I don't see a need to have this example. It looks like it was added solely to cover all the spelling variants, which these IPA keys are not for. On the other hand, I can see keeping Xola, which Sol505000 removed, because Freixenet is a borrowing from Catalan, while the former is from Nahuatl (but we could use a more common word). Nardog (talk) 08:54, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with covering all the spelling variants. With language with as transparent an orthography as Spanish, there wouldn't be too many of them. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
- In any case I don't see a need to have this example. It looks like it was added solely to cover all the spelling variants, which these IPA keys are not for. On the other hand, I can see keeping Xola, which Sol505000 removed, because Freixenet is a borrowing from Catalan, while the former is from Nahuatl (but we could use a more common word). Nardog (talk) 08:54, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- AS far as I can find it's an argentinian pronunciation.Sheila1988 (talk) 19:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- First time I hear about it. In Spain, both Gilda (film) and es:gilda (pincho) are pronounced as [xilða]. If kept, it should link to that particular case. --Error (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Changes in the vowel chart
I noticed in the vowel chart the examples provided in English are in fact words with long vowels, e.g. food /fuːd/ and father /fɑːðə/. In Spanish we do not have long vowels as such. I propose other examples in order to be more precise:
- Love /lʌv/ for Spanish /a/
- Bed /bed/ for Spanish /e/
- City /cɪti/ for Spanish /i/
- God /gɒd/ for Spanish /o/
- Influence /ɪnfluəns/ for Spanish /u/
These examples are from BrE pronunciation. --Leandro (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- You’re right, Spanish doesn’t have phonemic long vowels, but precisely because of this, using English long vowels to approximate vowel qualities is perfectly fine; most Spanish speakers won’t have any trouble understanding if you lengthen the vowels. Keep in mind that the English examples here are meant for an international audience, not just southern England. God and love are particularly bad examples because the qualities of those vowels vary widely between dialects. In most American dialects, the vowel in god is unrounded, and in Inland North in particular, it can be even further forward than Spanish /a/. As for the vowel in love, that’s close enough to Spanish /a/ in Australian English or conservative RP, but it can correspond to basically anything in the region of [ʊ~ə~ɑ~ɐ] depending on the dialect. 187.245.67.172 (talk) 07:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- City (which should be written /ˈsɪti/ - ⟨c⟩ stands for the voiceless palatal plosive in IPA) and influence are also bad as these are not true phonemes in English, but rather unstressed /ɪ~iː/ and /ʊ~uː/. Furthermore, ⟨u⟩ before /ə/ signifies a variation between /ʊ~uː~w/, which makes it a very bad choice for Spanish /u/. In this guide, the symbol ⟨u⟩ stands only for the non-syllabic [u] and not the approximant [w]. If vowel length is that important, then choose words where /iː/ and /uː/ occur before voiceless/fortis plosives.
- Regarding /ɒ/, as the anon said, that vowel is a really bad approximation of Spanish /o/. In North America, the only vowel that gets close to that is their /oʊ/ - or /ɔː/ before /r/. Sol505000 (talk) 14:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Voiced bilabial fricative or approximant?
Hello, it looks like the IPA β in the article links to voiced bilabial approximant but the target article indicates that the approximant version needs a little goatee underneath. So, which is it meant to be? --Nidaana (talk) 13:05, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Either, as Voiced bilabial fricative#Bilabial approximant says. See Spanish phonology#Consonants for a more detailed discussion. And even if it was always approximant, the diacritic is not needed unless the fricative also occurs within the language (see Handbook of the IPA, pp. 27ff). Nardog (talk) 13:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Yeísmo
@Barefoot through the chollas: Regarding the infobox in Spanish language, do we really need to explicitly transcribe the delateralized variant alongside the one with [ʎ]? The merger is automatic, it either happens or it doesn't (for transitional speakers, there is, AFAIK, a chaotic switching between the two phones, without any pattern). Since most speakers exhibit it, we may as well scratch the distinction and just write ⟨ʝ⟩ (or ⟨ɟʝ⟩ everywhere, which would be fine for a broad transcription such as the one used here. Furthermore (per Andean Spanish), in Northern Ecuador, /ʎ/ is delateralized to [ʒ] without merging with /ʝ/ (which is very likely heard as a merger by speakers from outside the area), which makes ⟨ʎ⟩ anything but an appropriate symbol for that variety of Spanish.
Back to the infobox, the insistance on including [kasteˈʝano] alongside [kasteˈʎano] strikes me as odd. These are definitely not the only variants that are possible; namely, [kahteˈʝano] and [kahteˈʎano] are also standard in some regions (as is [ehpaˈɲol], there are of course variants [kætteˈʝano, -ˈʎano, ɛppaˈɲol] in Southern Spain in addition to that, so even ⟨h⟩ wouldn't be quite correct for all accents of that type). In addition to that, [kahteˈʒano] and [kahteˈʃano] are standard in Rioplatense Spanish. If ⟨s⟩ can stand for a phonetic [h], then ⟨ʎ⟩ can stand for a phonetic [ʝ], [ʒ] and [ʃ]. ⟨ʝ⟩ already stands for all three.
Let [kasteˈʎano] cover all that.
Futhermore, at least younger speakers of Rioplatense Spanish have no marginal phonemes since [ʃ] in show is the same as their ordinary [ʃ] spelled ll and y. Sol505000 (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- This discussion belongs on the talk page relevant to the article Spanish language, not here, as IPA is not in question. I'll copy it to there. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)