![]() | Joe Biden was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Current consensus
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as [[Talk:Joe Biden#Current consensus]], item [n]
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link)
1. Mention that Biden is the oldest president in lead. (link - though closer said that proposer should file a new RfC with a clearer question).
2. No consensus on section about gaffes. (link)
3. That the infobox is shortened. (official 2021 White House portrait is used as the lead image. (link 1, link 2)
4. Thelink)
5. The infobox caption is "Official portrait, 2021". (link)
6. In the lead sentence, use "who is" as opposed to "serving as" when referring to Biden as the president. (link)
7. In the lead sentence, use "46th and current" as opposed to just "46th" when referring to Biden as the president. (Opinions vs. Facts
Not a forum |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
How are we to know what is a opinion based fact in the article or an actual fact? some info may be biased but seem true.
I think this should be added to the opening part - "some consider Biden one of the worst presidents in American history" Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.90.232 (talk) 05:08, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
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'46th and current president...' or just '46th president...'
Should we have the phrase "...and current", removed from the intro? GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
'Note': Same RFC being held at the Kamala Harris bio. GoodDay (talk) 09:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it should be kept. Pauloroboto (talk) 09:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Survey 2
- Neutral - Doesn't matter to me, as long we keep Biden's & Harris' intros in sync, on this matter. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove "And current" is redundant with the present tense and adds nothing. It is also against MOS. MOS:REALTIME gives the example:
The information that "The current president, Cristina Fernández, took office in 2007", or "Cristina Fernández has been president since 2007", is better rendered "Cristina Fernández became president in 2007"
. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:21, 15 June 2022 (UTC) - Keep because just saying he's the "46th president of the United States" is still ambiguous as to whether he is still serving, and that fact that he's still serving is critical biographical information. It would be an accurate statement to say "Donald Trump is the 45th president of the United States" even though he's no longer serving in office because the statement is ambiguous. I've seen some concerns with MOS:REALTIME brought up, and I believe it should be ignored in this situation because the purpose of it is almost certainly not an issue in this high profile article. REALTIME discourages words like currently because they
may go out of date
. However, it's extremely unlikely for this article to not be updated the second Joe Biden's successor says "So help me God;" therefore, this issue the guideline is trying to address is practically irrelevant in the context of this article. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)- No. Trump WAS the 46th president. He no longer is such. He is only the person who WAS such. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I also support some alternative proposals. For example,
Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. is an American politician who has been the 46th president of the United States since January 1, 2021.
would be good. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 01:36, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm guessing you meant "January 20, 2021". GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes that is what I meant. lol sorry. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 01:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm guessing you meant "January 20, 2021". GoodDay (talk) 21:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove; temporal language should be avoided. Even though this article is likely to be updated the moment that it changes, there still could exist permalinks to specific versions, offline and printed copies, etc., and all of those will become inaccurate over time. Language which will not become outdated and inaccurate should always be preferred over language that will, so we should always avoid "now", "currently", "today", and so on. If it is crucial to emphasize that Biden is serving now, it can easily be stated that his term began on 20 January 2021—the lack of an end date makes very clear that he's still the president. Alternatively, language such as "As of June 2022, Biden is the president of the United States" could also be used; that too would never become inaccurate. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove. It's redundant and unnecessary. Its removal causes no ambiguity. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 00:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove per MOS:CURRENT and because this is already conveyed in the infobox. We don't need to reference the timeframe at all except in positions that are not numbered by order of servitude, such as the Senate position held by Chris Coons since 2010. If we were to use a timeframe, like we do at Jair Bolsonaro, we would write: [Joe Biden] is an American politician who has served as the 46th president of the United States since 2021. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- MOS:CURRENT says
Except on pages updated regularly
. I think the point of it is so that information doesn't go out of date. This page will presumably have dozens of active editors on it the second Biden leaves office, so I don't think there is anything to worry about regarding MOS:CURRENT/things going out of date. I do like your suggested wording though. Endwise (talk) 09:33, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- MOS:CURRENT says
- Keep (or rephrase) - In my opinion, the best policy to cite in this particular case is actually WP:IAR. I will fully acknowledge the manual of style guidelines to avoid the word "current" and other temporal language... the trouble is that with regards to Presidents of the United States, the past tense is NEVER used. Once you are the 6th, 26th, or 46th President of the United States, you are ALWAYS, in the present tense, the nth President of the United States. As such, the current one needs some other language to distinguish it from past ones. Again, I think WP:IAR is an acceptable approach here, as the argument in the MOS is that the text should stand no matter when it is read, as who knows the next time an article will be updated... but we all know that there is a 0% chance of THIS text not being updated the INSTANT the next president is sworn in (if not sooner-- people jump the gun sometimes). Like Iamreallygoodatcheckers above, I would accept an alternate rephrasing that distinguishes the current president from past presidents, but I oppose having the current president having the exact same descriptive text as all previous presidents... even if relevant distinguishing information is in the infobox. The lead itself needs to be clear. Fieari (talk) 07:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Rephrase/keep. The question "is he currently the president of the US?" is a valid question that many readers will have, and the fact that Biden is currently the president is the largest reason he is notable and why most of the readers of this article will be here, so I think it should be mentioned in the first sentence. Relegation to an infobox isn't great, as most people don't read them, particularly people looking for basic info like who the president of the US is. The wording now is fine, but I think the suggestion given by LaundryPizza03 is worded slightly better:
Joe Biden is an American politician who has served as the 46th president of the United States since 2021.
As I said above, I don't think there are MOS:CURRENT concerns with this, as the guideline states "Except on pages updated regularly", which this is. Regarding redundancy, it won't be obvious to every reader at least that "is an American politician who is the Nth president of the United states" means that he's currently the president (particularly to those who don't know who the president of the US is). Endwise (talk) 09:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC) - Remove Superfluous, serves no purpose. ValarianB (talk) 13:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep removing seems biased towards educated people in developed western countries who would “obviously” know he’s the current president. Dronebogus (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose-ish The text should clearly state that he is the president of the United States. I'd be ok with dropping the 46th and replacing the text with "is the president of the United States". The fact of someone being the president is the main point, not whether they are/were the i-th or j-th president. --RegentsPark (comment) 21:06, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Many people may not know how many prior presidents there has been or that 46 is the current one. 331dot (talk) 21:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Agree with 331dot's reasoning above. Some1 (talk) 12:25, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove - redundant. It is blindingly obvious that the person who "is the ___th President" is currently serving. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, obviously. Him being the current president is a separate and distinct attribute compared with him being the 46th. It may seem obvious to some that "is" implies still serving, but logically it doesn't convey absolute certainty on the matter. "Obama is the 44th president" and "Trump is the 45th president" could still be held to be true, given that nobody else will ever hold the title of "44th president". It is also fairly common to continue using President as a title even after they leave office - President Clinton, President Obama etc. We're literally talking about two words here, and they are relevant and useful, so no reason at all to chop them. — Amakuru (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - Per, ironically, MOS:CURRENT, the same style guideline being used to suggest removal. Those would actually read what MOS:CURRENT says would note that the very first words say that it does not apply to "pages updated regularly." I don't think anyone can seriously argue that this page is not kept updated regularly, therefore MOS:CURRENT's wording does not apply here. I couldn't find any similar discussion on Donald Trump's article but I do note that when he was president it said the 45th and current president of the United States, seemingly without issue if the talk page archive titles and what I could find on the talk page are anything to go by. The wording is not redundant here because while he is the 46th president, that does not automatically make him the current president, because once his term is up he will still be the 46th president but will no longer be the current one, therefore it's neither redundant nor superfluous to make this clear in the lede, and conflating the word current with the use of present tense does not make the article clear; its removal will make the article more vague and the lede less concise and factual, a clear step back for the article and those wishing to understand what it is saying. - Aoidh (talk) 12:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - Just saying he's the 46th president doesn't tell you if that is the one who is in office now or not. Someone might say it's too obvious, but an encyclopedia is supposed to be matter of fact, even for "obvious" stuff. Useitorloseit (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove as per VP question. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:19, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove As I feel "is" is explanatory enough MraClean (talk) 16:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- It has been explained several times above why "is" is not explanatory enough. Biden will always be the 46th president, even way after his terms expire. Nobody advocating removal seems to be addressing this point... — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, Biden will always be the man who was the 46th president. The phrasing "is" becomes inaccurate as soon as his term ends. Trump is not the 45th president. He was the 45th president. Washington is not the 1st president, he was such.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- In concrete linear reality, you're absolutely right, Washington was, has been and always will still have been the first US president. In abstract historical chronology, Amakuru's absolutely right, Biden is the 46th there is, the 46th there was and the 46th there ever will be. You two should join forces, in my opinion. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- "In concrete linear reality, you're absolutely right" Which is where this issue should end. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:57, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- In concrete linear reality, you're absolutely right, Washington was, has been and always will still have been the first US president. In abstract historical chronology, Amakuru's absolutely right, Biden is the 46th there is, the 46th there was and the 46th there ever will be. You two should join forces, in my opinion. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, Biden will always be the man who was the 46th president. The phrasing "is" becomes inaccurate as soon as his term ends. Trump is not the 45th president. He was the 45th president. Washington is not the 1st president, he was such.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:25, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Whether a person "is" or "was" the Nth president has to do with whether the person is alive or not. User:Amakuru is correct, "is" vs "was" does not explain whether the person is currently or was formerly President or not, it explains whether the person is alive or not. -- Charlesreid1 (talk) 04:09, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- It has been explained several times above why "is" is not explanatory enough. Biden will always be the 46th president, even way after his terms expire. Nobody advocating removal seems to be addressing this point... — Amakuru (talk) 19:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Remove Per MOS:CURRENT. Also just awkward and not concise. ~ HAL333 03:29, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- User:HAL333 Can you please elaborate on why MOS:CURRENT would apply, since it specifically says it doesn't apply to pages updated regularly, as this one very clearly is? - Aoidh (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Barack Obama is still the 44th president despite not being the current president.
(An alternative would be to just write "Biden is the president..." and leave it at that, but I'm not sure how much support that would have.)-- Vaulter 02:37, 27 June 2022 (UTC)- Based on my comments below (see other countries subsection), I would suggest using the form "Biden is an American politician who has served as the 46th president of the United States since [January 20], 2021." -- Vaulter 15:58, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussion 2
On June 12, 2022. An editor 'here' & at the Kamala Harris page, removed the phrase "...and current", without seeking a consensus to do so. As I understand it, such changes to both these bios' leads isn't welcomed without a consensus. Therefore, I've restored the status quo in the lead of both bios-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 22:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Current is obviously better. Dronebogus (talk) 22:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't care which is used, but I think making such a change (that was unilaterally made) on June 12, isn't the way to go. Anyways, now we're in the 'D' phase of WP:BRD. FWIW, nearly all (if not all) current leaders are using the "...and current". GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- And I think that nearly all (if not all) current leader pages are wrong in doing so, though I recognize that I am on the short end of that consensus as of now. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
FWIW, two attempts have been made to remove "...and current" over at Kamala Harris' bio intro. For those who favour removing the phrase, please open up an RFC on this matter. Attempts to edit-war in such changes will only lead to eventual blocks, follow the WP:BRD method. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
The sequential number is trivia. "Current" is a critical piece of information. HiLo48 (talk) 23:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- ... which is conveyed by saying that he is the president. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Some of you have mentioned "46th president of the United States, since 2021". That was proposed many months ago & didn't get passed. GoodDay (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Has rephrasing as "is currently the 46th" been considered? Senorangel (talk) 00:36, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- He'll always be the 46th president of the United States. GoodDay (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but he can be currently the 46th only now. This way, both the sequential numbering and the ongoing nature of the term are covered. Senorangel (talk) 01:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, he always will be the person who was the 46th president. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
@The Four Deuces:, @MraClean:, @Writethisway: & @SergeWoodzing:, @Binksternet:. Would you 'please' give your position at this RFC's survey. Seeing as you've already done so, over at the Harris RFC survey. GoodDay (talk) 16:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Basic question
It is inconceivable to me that we are discussing this at all as long as the verb is is used in the sentence along with the adjective current, making the exact same point twice. Can anyone explain why we are doing this here and also at the VP talk? The more this nonsense expands and grows, the more flabbergasted I get. Some of us fight to get consensus to keep an obvious, grammatical redundancy which makes the articles's opening sentence look childish and ridiculous? Why? Wikipedia when it's the worst kind of kindergarten. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- As I mentioned at the beginning. My only concern is that we have the Biden & Harris bios in sync, on this matter :) GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Would be nice though, wouldn't it, if both articles didn't begin with a grammatical redundancy that makes them both (and the subjects) look silly? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:12, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- +INFINITY to this. I can't believe that anyone is seriously suggesting that, for example, "Barack Obama is the 44th president of the United States" is in any way a valid sentence that requires us to use this redundancy. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:11, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Welcome to official American government history world. It's not like other valid but fleeting mindsets. It's "frozen in time". InedibleHulk (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- This type of thinking is no less absolutely right in the Dot Com domain, either, even in articles explicitly updated this March. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- So, people write blatantly counterfactual statements and we are supposed to follow that? Sorry, we can be better than the sources. We don't have to follow their obvious errors.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, it's not an error if you see it the way many historians do. It just seems weird till it's tolerable. Check out the tense for events in articles like June 27, May 19 and January 4. Clearly marked with years that no longer exist and filled with continuously present verbs. It's paradoxical, sure. But both views hold true. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Still wrong. Those events are over and done with. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's exactly why they are currently historical events. Indefinitely. And yes, sad. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:25, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Still wrong. Those events are over and done with. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Again, it's not an error if you see it the way many historians do. It just seems weird till it's tolerable. Check out the tense for events in articles like June 27, May 19 and January 4. Clearly marked with years that no longer exist and filled with continuously present verbs. It's paradoxical, sure. But both views hold true. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- So, people write blatantly counterfactual statements and we are supposed to follow that? Sorry, we can be better than the sources. We don't have to follow their obvious errors.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:33, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The so called "...and current" phrase, is used by many incumbent heads of state and or government bios. GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually mean "... is ... and current"?! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yup. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sad. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yup. GoodDay (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually mean "... is ... and current"?! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Other countries
For what it's worth, I decided to lookup how we write about other countries' leaders in their articles. Justin Trudeau is described as the 23rd and current PM of Canada. Andrés Manuel López Obrador has been the 65th president of Mexico since 2018. Jacinda Ardern has been serving as the 40th PM of New Zealand since 2017. Anthony Albanese has been serving as the 31st PM of Australia since 2022. Yoon Suk-yeol has been the 13th president of South Korea since 2022. Emmanuel Macron, Boris Johnson, Fumio Kishida, Micheál Martin and Olaf Scholz all omit the numbers.
Based on this, and some of the comments above, I would suggest rewording this article to say "Biden is an American politician who has served as the 46th president of the United States since [January 20], 2021." -- Vaulter 15:55, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Don't forget, to drop in at the RFC at Kamala Harris concerning the same topic. GoodDay (talk) 16:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Explain his dad's "financial setbacks"?
I think the current wording is too vague, could mean a lot of things. I'd rather say he lost money in furniture and cropdusting ventures. The exact wording doesn't matter as much as the actual nature of the issues/problems/woes. The facts are already sourced inline and the article is more informative with them than without.
Less importantly, I also still believe "suffering" (in any form) is needlessly loaded language. Sometimes it makes a subject seem pathetic, sometimes resilient, but always something. Plainer English often works best, but again, that's small potatoes.
SPECIFICO and others, maybe mull it over. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with InedibleHulk. Explaining what set them back financially is more precise and doesn't take up a lot of space in comparison to the current wording. Suffering comes across as loaded and seems to be problematic with WP:NEWSSTYLE and WP:EMPHATIC Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- This isn't a biography of Biden's father, going into minutiae of exactly what endeavours brought about the family hardship is not important. As for "suffering", the usage here is the 2nd entry in the dictionary, "to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss". So, not an uncommon or obscure usage. It does not make the subject pathetic, you're reading things into the word that just aren't there. ValarianB (talk) 05:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I would agree, this is not about Biden. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's far from minute or exact. Doesn't even relay how he lost the money or to whom, just in what. Whether it's vague and emotive or plain and descriptive, it's of course going to be more about his dad. The whole paragraph already exists only to discuss his parents and upbringing. Would
lost money in two failed startups
be imprecise enough for you? It would still better explain the verifiable situation than "suffered financial setbacks", which could suggest stock market troubles, overspending or an unexpected medical expense instead of the general truth. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)- Papa Biden's "financial setbacks" are clearly relevant considering Joe's modest means, which of course is a big part of his biography. Joe didn't inherit tons of money from his rich father. (Take your pick of which politician I was thinking of when I typed that last sentence.) "Financial setbacks" is vague and so using a few more words to convey that there were two failed startups is beneficial. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Before I was edit conflicted, I wanted to add that I never said "suffered" was uncommon or obscure. I've removed more than a hundred from Wikipedia over the years. It just has connotations and length that "lost" or "had" doesn't. And I'm going to imagine that "rich father" remark's a veiled jab against my queen, but it's cool, she deserved it. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Are they? Lost of people are not born rich, but make their own way in life. All we need to say is that he was not born into money. Slatersteven (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- If that's all we need, do we (or you) still want to continue describing Big Joe's unemployment in Scranton, rental in Claymont, mortgage in Mayfield and ultimate triumphant metamorphosis into "a successful used-car salesman, maintaining the family in a middle-class lifestyle"? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Papa Biden's "financial setbacks" are clearly relevant considering Joe's modest means, which of course is a big part of his biography. Joe didn't inherit tons of money from his rich father. (Take your pick of which politician I was thinking of when I typed that last sentence.) "Financial setbacks" is vague and so using a few more words to convey that there were two failed startups is beneficial. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I do not think it is important why Biden Sr. had financial losses and the term suffer does not say anything about his feelings. I do not think that for most people parents with four children who send them to private schools (the tuition at Joe Biden's school today $30,900 per year) would be considered "of modest means." It' just spin. American politicians like to pretend that they came from poverty and worked their way up against adversity. TFD (talk) 03:09, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not aiming to delve into the Whys and Hows. Way too complex. But even the What (losses) isn't clear by "setbacks". A rising cost of living can be a financial setback without loss, as can a drop in income or pretty much any large-but-fair purchase. As two smart folks who know a shiny political spinjob when we see it, I think we could settle on keeping his "suffering" but trading his "setbacks" for "losses". InedibleHulk (talk) 04:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it should be "suffered business setbacks" not suffered financial setbacks. "Ventures" sounds like harebrained schemes. SPECIFICO talk 16:22, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- How about "experienced financial setbacks", to avoid the doubly negative tone? HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Too vague. The original text was
lost money in furniture and cropdusting ventures
. What's wrong with that? Seven words that make it clear exactly what happened. If you want,lost money in two business ventures
is enough. (Assuming it was two, I don't have an account with them.) "Venture" is a business term, like venture capital. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)- I'd based two on "Biden Sr tried to set up a furniture store with a friend, only for the friend to apparently run off with their start-up money. Next, he attempted a crop-dusting enterprise – and again lost his cash." To me, "business setbacks" makes it sound like he actually got these projects off the ground, then ran them both poorly. Any venture, scheme, plan, plot, enterprise, setup or idea can range from absolute foolishness to sheer genius, but without an adjective, I don't think whichever noun suggests anything cognitive. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Too vague. The original text was
- How about "experienced financial setbacks", to avoid the doubly negative tone? HiLo48 (talk) 03:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it should be "suffered business setbacks" not suffered financial setbacks. "Ventures" sounds like harebrained schemes. SPECIFICO talk 16:22, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not aiming to delve into the Whys and Hows. Way too complex. But even the What (losses) isn't clear by "setbacks". A rising cost of living can be a financial setback without loss, as can a drop in income or pretty much any large-but-fair purchase. As two smart folks who know a shiny political spinjob when we see it, I think we could settle on keeping his "suffering" but trading his "setbacks" for "losses". InedibleHulk (talk) 04:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Please provide the language from the best sources on this. It's pointless to discuss language in a vacuum, unless of course the furniture store sold vacuums. SPECIFICO talk 15:01, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Which sources do you think are the best? Of the three already inline, The Daily Telegraph is the only readily readable piece and the only one from a notable outlet. Katie Russell used the words "lost", "money", "furniture" and "crop-dusting". She didn't write "suffered", "financial" or "setbacks". The only businesses she mentioned were "corrupt business", "oil business" and "wartime family business", all of which made money.
- I don't think this is about sources, though, I think you've grown personally accustomed to reverting anything I try to fix in an article you oversee. I think you'll take that last line as an opportunity to accuse me of casting aspersions and not assuming good faith, and so avoid answering the question. I think this will be archived, I'll try to implement the consensus by removing Joe the Elder's financial information entirely or closely paraphrasing the source, and you'll revert either with (something like) "No consensus for this; please respect BRD instead of disrupting Wikipedia".
- I hope I've misread this situation, though, and look forward to seeing RS which support your preference. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:15, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
I don't see any reason for mentioning Joe Biden, Sr's financial status in this bio, anymore then I see reason to mention Fred Trump's financial status in Donald Trump's bio. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Political Positions
Somewhat new to Wikipedia, so bear with me.
In this article, there is a section titled "Political positions" that just goes over Biden's broad views in a couple of paragraphs, not split into subheadings by issue or anything. The rest of his positions are then given in a linked companion article, Political positions of Joe Biden.
However, in many other articles, such as President Trump and President Obama, political positions are told when needed under the presidency or "career" section of the article, and there is no unique section for political positions. These people, despite having no distinct "Political positions" section in their articles, also have pages titled Political positions of Donald Trump and Political positions of Barack Obama dedicated to them.
Furthermore, other figures, such as Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, do not have separate "Political positions" articles nor are their political positions simply listed throughout the "career" section of the article. Instead, a unique "Political positions" section is made that is very extensive and has multiple subheadings depending on the issue.
The question I ask here is about Biden's article, but I suppose it applies to articles for all politicians. Which of these methods of listing positions is preferred? Obviously, only very high-profile figures are going to get a separate article made for their positions. But, when listed in the article, is it preferred that a subsection be made uniquely for political positions, or would it be better if positions were simply listed as needed in relation to policy in the "career" section?
In my opinion, I would support removing the "Political positions" section for figures that already have separate "Political positions" articles. In contrast, I would say to leave it for those who do not. Lastly, I would like to say that, considering neither Trump nor Obama had a "Political positions" section on their article, we should remove Biden's as well and simply integrate the facts when needed throughout his career section. There can be a link to the greater article specifically for "Political positions" as the start of the career section as well. I think that it is redundant to have a whole "Political positions" section within this article when there is already a whole different "Political positions" article that we could just link.
Thank you for helping me.
Justtrujames (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
About his christianity
It would be nice if someone would add this information into the article, it turns out Biden carries a rosary and attends Mass every Sunday, and that the catholic church changed some rules just because of him:
"The Catholic Church as an institution has long held that abortion is a sin.
Pope Francis has said aborting an unwanted pregnancy is like “hiring a hit man”.
So it should come as no surprise that, officially at least, the Vatican praised the Supreme Court's decision.
On Friday, the Vatican's Academy for Life said the ruling "challenges the whole world" at a time Western society "is losing passion for life".
"By choosing life, our responsibility for the future of humanity is at stake," said Archbishop Vincenzo Paglia, the head of the academy.
Yet many Catholics support the right for people to end their pregnancies. According to Pew Research Center, more than half (58%) of Catholics in the US think abortion should be legal in most or all cases.
US President Joe Biden is perhaps America's highest-profile Catholic - he is known to attend church regularly and carry a rosary. But he has also been a vocal advocate for women's right to choose.
The issue has run him afoul of some of the church's top clergy. Last year, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops voted to amend the guidance on the eucharist to say that Catholics who oppose the church's teachings on abortion should not receive holy communion.
The guidance would be non-binding, and Biden says he's "not worried". He has continued to attend Mass every Sunday." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:A702:EA85:E80D:B4AF:B88F:3D81 (talk) 16:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- The article already says Biden is a Catholic who attends mass. I don't see that much more is required since it's not something that draws a lot of attention. Unless the Vatican is planning to excommunicate him for his political decisions, it's not important that he doesn't agree with them 100%. Most U.S. Supreme Court justices for example are Roman Catholics who oppose the Vatican's stance on capital punishment. So what. TFD (talk) 19:26, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- As you suggest, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops is made of low-profile and powerless executives, relative to the (current or former) president of one whole nation under God. As TFD notes, most Catholic laypeople disagree with the inner Roman circle on some longstanding deviant stance or another, including sexual ones. And I'll add, from my understanding, Stephen Colbert is the most public and beloved face of American Democratic Catholicism. So, yeah. What's already in the article seems to be enough...for now. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:39, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Pronunciation of the President's name 'Biden '
Am concerned about the pronunciation of the President's name Biden /b(ai)di*n/ it sounds better as /bidi*n/. Is anything wrong with my own pronunciation? Christmas videos (talk) 16:45, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's pronounces "Buy-Din" or "Bye-Din". GoodDay (talk) 16:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The second vowel is silent. It's "Buy-dn". HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's how he pronounces it, though I would posit that most people pronounce the E. Trillfendi (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's not an "e", it's a schwa - the "vowel" used by Americans in unstressed syllables. A kind of "uh" sound like the vowel in the word "the". Most people including Biden himself say "Buy-dn", not "Buy-den" or "Buy-din". -- MelanieN (talk) 03:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- The OP also thought the capital of the United States was New York, and wondered why there isn't a statue of Liberty in Washington. I've warned them for forum chat. Acroterion (talk) 03:17, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's not an "e", it's a schwa - the "vowel" used by Americans in unstressed syllables. A kind of "uh" sound like the vowel in the word "the". Most people including Biden himself say "Buy-dn", not "Buy-den" or "Buy-din". -- MelanieN (talk) 03:11, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's how he pronounces it, though I would posit that most people pronounce the E. Trillfendi (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- The second vowel is silent. It's "Buy-dn". HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Edit
Why can't we edit info on the worst president in US history. If you want to tell facts about him then give all the facts not just the ones that suit your perspective. Give the facts about his connection with Russia and his sons connection with Russia and china. Give the facts about how he's running this country into the ground.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
And what this means is that he needs to resign or we'll resign him against his will. #FJB #2600:1004:B03E:51C3:5C02:3017:ACB0:5CD2 (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- We can, so you can ask here for us to do it. Slatersteven (talk) 16:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is not the page to discuss the Trump family. SPECIFICO talk 16:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Please note that your suggestions should have reliable refs (see the welcome on your talk page, I made an error in inserting the wrong welcome on Twinkle, so apologies) and follow a neutral point of view for it to be accepted. If you wish a suggestion, you may use this template, but please make sure that it has reliable refs instead of original research (such as your line "Why can't we edit info on the worst president in US history. If you want to tell facts about him then give all the facts not just the ones that suit your perspective."). Many thanks. VickKiang (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- FWIW IP, I'd rather we keep things like "the most popular" or "the worst" etc etc, out of BLPs of politicians. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Agree, it’s way too subjective, and there’s no rankings on C-SPAN or Siena Institute evaluating Biden, so it’s definitely original research, if there’s a proposal it would be rejected. VickKiang (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not the place to foment sedition. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)