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:I'm very surprised that you consider that the Russians have the incentive of agreeing to ceasefires and breaking them. How is this possible when by evacuating a city will give them the green light to heavily bomb them. Especially in the case of Mariupol where the majority of the population is Russian speaking. Why would they want to harm their people? The destruction of bridges is clearly done by the Ukrainians to stop Russian advancing not the opposite. Clearly the Ukrainians are using civilians as shields. Clearly the Ukrainians are fighting from schools and hospitals to force Russians to hit them and portrait them as bad. [[User:HelenHIL|HelenHIL]] ([[User talk:HelenHIL|talk]]) 13:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
:I'm very surprised that you consider that the Russians have the incentive of agreeing to ceasefires and breaking them. How is this possible when by evacuating a city will give them the green light to heavily bomb them. Especially in the case of Mariupol where the majority of the population is Russian speaking. Why would they want to harm their people? The destruction of bridges is clearly done by the Ukrainians to stop Russian advancing not the opposite. Clearly the Ukrainians are using civilians as shields. Clearly the Ukrainians are fighting from schools and hospitals to force Russians to hit them and portrait them as bad. [[User:HelenHIL|HelenHIL]] ([[User talk:HelenHIL|talk]]) 13:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::Oi vey! [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 13:42, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
::Oi vey! [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 13:42, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
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:: I suggest you stop this fucking propaganda or face an immediate block.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:44, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
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::: And the block will be per [[WP:NAZI]]--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 13:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC) |
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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
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Link to closed and archived RfC: Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?
(The heading above is a link to the archived RFC as it is significant and I'm assuming this will be discussed more while not cluttering the talk page with a 29 page discussion Phiarc (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC))
- No Anas Azeem 2005 (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- What do you mean no? They were not asking a question. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Um, yes they were:
Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?
EEng 07:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)- Yeah - I see how this could be slightly confusing EEng. For any future editors as well...
- This section heading is a link into the archives. If you click it you'll see the original question was asked on Feb 27th, discussed extensively, and closed as "no consensus" on March 6. The link provides easy reference, and keeps the (already discussed) question visible on the main talk page rather than just buried in the archives.
- If you have the same question, or to open a new question/RfC on this topic, please familiarize yourself —at a minimum— with the summary of the previous discussion. --N8 18:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Admittedly, I'm easily confused. EEng 20:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Um, yes they were:
- What do you mean no? They were not asking a question. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Given the preceding discussion, I changed the heading. Hopefully EEng#s is less confused. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Foreign casualties of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine table
I would suggest stating whether the fatalities are civilians or military. The table above shows both and it is unclear in the referred to table. KD0710 (talk) 15:06, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would support the suggestion, do you have a source that specifies that? Dario DeCasseres (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Foreign volunteer count?
The article currently says 16,000 volunteers, while the International Legion of Territorial Defense of Ukraine article states over 20,000. Both are sourced. Anyway, just wanting to make the infobox accurate. Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ╠Talk║Contribs╣ 17:02, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think the numbers are a bit weird because there seems to be a blending between those who volunteer, and those who fight. Anyone, including you and I, can volunteer but that doesn't make us combatants, to my mind to be a combatant you have to show up to Ukraine, get an AK and go fight. So I see some sources that say physically present, and others that say 'volunteer'. Beyond that I think it needs better attribution, because all the attributions so far are according to the foreign ministry. But 16,000-20,000 troops is a lot, it's 10%-15% of Russia's invasion force so you'd think that they'd be a little more visible to foreign correspondents. Alcibiades979 (talk) 18:47, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- 16000 was the latest (claimed) addition of volunteers as it was at that date. It never really represented the total number of volunteers present in the Ukraine as there were people there long before this. (All the way back to 2014) Now, the supposed addition might be closer to 20000 yes though the total number of volunteers is still effectively unknown - as is how many of these are actually volunteering as fighters. And obviously, the number can grow or shrink suddenly (from new ones arriving to many going home) There really shouldn't have been an attempt at listing a given number of volunteer fighters in the infobox, it was always going to be wrong in one way or another. 95.197.63.71 (talk) 20:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Infobox - Casualties and losses
Acc. to Western officials (3 March): Acc. to United States (8 March):
Isn't the United States technically speaking a Western Country? It's like saying the European Union said whatever then France or Spain said whatever else. Shouldn't it just be Western Officials, like merge US with Western Officials? Not questioning the numbers of casualties and losses...just how it is presented.
I have no idea how to merge things on here so hence I am asking.
MiroslavGlavic (talk) 17:53, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Western officials also includes Western Europe. I think it's fine.KD0710 (talk) 18:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Like KD0710, Western officials includes Western Europe as well (Central as well at this point), so distinctive from an exclusively US claim and should stay as it is for now. But the figure, compared to new ones presented by the US, is starting to seem an overestimation and also slowly becoming out-of-date. At one point, in a week perhaps, it should be removed since we can expect newer figures will be readily available. EkoGraf (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think it should stay at least for now. I think the only people who have a solid grasp on Russian dead are Russia's military leadership, past that we see a range of estimates. We also don't know the criteria that goes in to these estimates, it could very well be that the US' recent ones are conservative like the UN has been doing for civilian dead. I did see an independent report came out today that was published in the New York Times which places material losses for the Russians at 980 Armored Vehicles including over 140 tanks, which is pretty much in line with Ukrainian estimates. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Like KD0710, Western officials includes Western Europe as well (Central as well at this point), so distinctive from an exclusively US claim and should stay as it is for now. But the figure, compared to new ones presented by the US, is starting to seem an overestimation and also slowly becoming out-of-date. At one point, in a week perhaps, it should be removed since we can expect newer figures will be readily available. EkoGraf (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- The most recent statement from the Ukrainian MoD also states they killed 12000 soldiers, not that there were 12000 casualties as the Infobox says. Important distinction considering casualties include a lot more than just killed soldiers. Should be changed to 12000 killed to more accurately reflect the post by the Ukrainian MoD. Hunterius8 (talk) 03:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
How about Equipment losses acc. to Russia .. ? Is there a more recent figure? I don't think that has been updated since the very first days of the conflict. Do Russia not claim any more equipment losses than this (which seems kind of unlikely seeing as these were early losses) or have they simply not bothered to present any new figures at all? 95.197.63.71 (talk) 20:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Should the "Countries' responses" have been deleted completely or restored (or maybe modified/condensed)?
The removal started here. A few other major conflicts that have a similar format are the 2021 Taliban offensive, Saudi Arabian–led intervention in Yemen, 2011 military intervention in Libya, and maybe even the 2021 Israel-Palestine crisis. In response to Beshogur, just lookup 'India Russia ally'& 'China Russia ally' for the evidence. A Morning Consult poll before the invasion confirms it as well. Maybe the heading could be changed to 'Countries close to Russia'? (Side note: yes, I also know I added a duplicate image by accident, won't happen again). Donkey Hot-day (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- There may be certain specific national reactions which have been uniquely notable in some way that would deserve a mention in this article. I expect Beshogur was just cleaning up in an effort to resolve the maint. tag listed on the "Reactions" section. The edit summary seems to invite exactly this question. If individual countries' reactions are restored, I recommend that the prose clearly indicate the nature of their notability, rather than stating a reaction without context. --N8 20:43, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Look at 2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#International_reactions, there are no single reaction, it just redirects there. Why are those 4 countries randomly chosen? Because the editor thought those 4 were Russia's allies. Thus a WP:OR in this case. Also similar to the religious heads, this is just duplicate from the reaction article. Doesn't help the article except making it larger and unreadable. Beshogur (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Germany is not a Russian ally. The point was presumably to include substantive country reactions that aren't cookie-cutter condemnations which are either a) covered elsewhere in the article; b) redundant to the map of the UN vote; c) don't add anything to the article except repeat the same thing in different words. These reactions are interesting IMO because they show:
- The response by another UNSC permanent member, China, traditionally allied with Russia.
- The response by Germany, a Western nation, individually, reversing its long-standing approach to defence policy.
- India, a major world trader and a country campaigning for a spot on the UN Security Council, allegedly working to undermine Western sanctions.
- On the contrary, the bulk of the Western response can (and is) best summarised collectively or in "ramifications". We don't need to write that the UK or France or US individually condemned it, it adds nothing, whereas the above do. The actions of China and India, at least, cannot accurately be described as "ramifications".
- (note that I did not add this section, but I support its inclusion in some shape or form, at least of the China/India/Germany portions.). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- As the editor who added Germany and China I didn't do it because I viewed them as Russia's allies, I chose them because I viewed them as countries who have a realistic impact upon the invasion, which is why I was trying to stay away from empty platitudes of foreign ministers and stick to concrete actions that they have taken that have impacted the conflict. China for instance arguably is the one who chose the invasion date; Germany's rejection of Russia and realignment of its security interests has completely reshaped European foreign policy, and energy policy. I didn't add Kazakhstan but I didn't delete it either because I thought it was worth mentioning the reaction of another former Soviet Republic to the invasion, and their relationship with Russia, particularly in Central Asia. I did originally have a good deal more about China, detailing how their response to the war has changed, and was adding China's potential economic lifelines but it got cut by another editor. I also originally listed France because of Macron's efforts both to continue creating a EU wide defense based in Europe not Washington, and to keep dialogue open to Putin to allow for diplomatic solutions but it got cut as well. But once again the idea being countries that have had concrete impacts upon the situation in Ukraine. Sorry, I'm very tired, so I'm not sure if this response was rambling. There is an argument that this is analysis, and I suppose that WP:OR could be said. There's alot to be said about France for instance but it quickly becomes WP:Synth which is why France stayed light. Alcibiades979 (talk) 00:39, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Germany is not a Russian ally. The point was presumably to include substantive country reactions that aren't cookie-cutter condemnations which are either a) covered elsewhere in the article; b) redundant to the map of the UN vote; c) don't add anything to the article except repeat the same thing in different words. These reactions are interesting IMO because they show:
- There appears to not be much consensus. I did not add any countries to the section, but I think some countries not aligned with NATO should be included. Or else the only reactions shown will just be from Western-allied countries, which goes against WP:GLOBAL (and WP:GLOBAL has been made an official supplement to policy on the Swedish Wikipedia). For me I wouldn't mind if the heading is changed to 'Countries close to Russia' (geographically CN, IN, & KZ are close) or 'Non-Western Countries'/'Countries not in NATO'. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Still don't get the importance of those five "individual countries" there. Look at the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh article, there was no exception, and all were moved to the separate article. Those five are not special and have no place there. Beshogur (talk) 13:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- There are probably a litany of different ways to present the same information. For instance, the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict you say doesn't have a reactions section, but Russia is mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 150 times in the article and Turkey is also mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 100 times in the article so I think it's just different ways to display the same information yes there isn't a "reactions section" but the information is still there. We could decentralize the information like the Nagorno-Karabakh article does and speak about China under all the sections where it's pertinent such as Economic Repercussions and the like. Alcibiades979 (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Alcibiades on the pertinence of information presented. A page split for this section is also another option. If the information is not closely related to the already existing main sections of this article then it may be better to have a separate page for that information. Otherwise, the pertinent information should go into the pertinent sections of the already existing main sections of this article. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- There are probably a litany of different ways to present the same information. For instance, the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict you say doesn't have a reactions section, but Russia is mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 150 times in the article and Turkey is also mentioned 4 times in the lede and about 100 times in the article so I think it's just different ways to display the same information yes there isn't a "reactions section" but the information is still there. We could decentralize the information like the Nagorno-Karabakh article does and speak about China under all the sections where it's pertinent such as Economic Repercussions and the like. Alcibiades979 (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- The more that I look at it the more I agree with Beshogur: the section should be deleted. Honestly China and India have done next to nothing so why bother mentioning them? Germany has but it gets talked about under NATO and EU, then beyond that the section seems to be a magnet for filling up with Foreign Minister of X country said Y which is bloat and is covered in its own dedicated reactions page. The "Russian Allies" idea fails because the only allies that are supporting Russia are Belarus and Syria, Belarus is already discussed at length and at some point the article will probably mention Syrian mercenaries. Alcibiades979 (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with Beshogur and Alcibiades. Pull out any pertinent sentences with cites and place it into the pertinent section in the article. Then either split the section off into a new article or delete it. ErnestKrause (talk) 01:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Traditionally, Russia's political allies include China, India, Vietnam, Serbia, Armenia, & numerous Central Asian countries. Just because they don't explicitly support Russia's invasion like Belarus & Syria does not mean their reactions are the same as NATO countries. Even being neutral in the conflict can be noteworthy if you look at the criticism from some Western commentators towards India's stance. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 04:35, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Still don't get the importance of those five "individual countries" there. Look at the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh article, there was no exception, and all were moved to the separate article. Those five are not special and have no place there. Beshogur (talk) 13:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Look at 2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#International_reactions, there are no single reaction, it just redirects there. Why are those 4 countries randomly chosen? Because the editor thought those 4 were Russia's allies. Thus a WP:OR in this case. Also similar to the religious heads, this is just duplicate from the reaction article. Doesn't help the article except making it larger and unreadable. Beshogur (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Add image of Kyiv TV Tower bombardment to infobox?
I think it might be a good idea to replace the destroyed Kyiv apartment building infobox image with the bombardment of the Kyiv TV Tower on 1 March, because then the images will show the Russian attempts to disrupt communication along with how they have destroyed civilian homes in Ukraine. I initially thought about replacing the destroyed homes Kharkiv image with it, but then I think that would make the infobox only feature Kyiv-specific images. BlueShirtz (talk) 03:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- How about some dead children? That would be more to the point. EEng 07:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- fair point BlueShirtz (talk) 15:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- mmm I do not know. so far it appears that only that transmitter has been attacked. it seems that communications (TV, radio, telephone, internet, etc.) continue to function even in the disputed or occupied territories. correct me if i'm wrong.
- Now, about the image of the infobox, comparing the images on the infobox of the articles "Iraq War" and "2003 invasion of Iraq", and the one used in this article, it seems to be an intention in the selected images to concentrate in drama, when these mentioned were superior in this aspect and the images mostly show combat operations or related. 152.207.223.95 (talk) 22:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah I realize that now, I think the infobox should probably be left as is. BlueShirtz (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Problem with the 'prelude' section
At the moment, the 'prelude' section of this article is longer than the section actually describing the events in scope of this page. This makes no sense, not least of all because we have 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis, most likely soon to be renamed Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. It would be appreciated if we could remove most of the prelude content to the other article, if it isn't there already, and create a small 'summary' here. This will go a long way toward making the size of this article more manageable. RGloucester — ☎ 15:47, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- The invasion parts did used to be longer before they were trimmed down, and I think they're currently out of date so may get longer. Plus, the ramifications are events within the scope of this page, too. The prelude section is not that large. I've trimmed a bit of fluff out of it, and someone with a bit more chutzpah than I could go further, but I think it's largely acceptable right now. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Some chutzpah applied. More may follow, depending on the blow back. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- And a little more. Let's see how it goes. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Some chutzpah applied. More may follow, depending on the blow back. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2022 (3)
Please add into See also in the subsection "Censorship and propaganda" the link to the article Russia under Vladimir Putin. K8M8S8 (talk) 17:10, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Personally not sure this adds more value. We already link to Putinism, and more specific articles like Media freedom in Russia. We already have too many see also links in this article IMO. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Reduction of the amount of see also/further info links
There seems to be an exorbitant of see also and further information links. It really clogs up the article. Obviously, some are needed, but I would suggest slimming it down.
I suggest removing:
- Colour revolution - Covered in Orange Revolution Link
- Russian nationalism - Clearly covered in the other article listed under see also
- Z (military symbol) - remove from Invasion and resistance, Already listed in the propaganda section below
- International Criminal Court investigation in Ukraine - This is covered in the War Crimes article
- Disinformation in the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis Remove from Russian accusations and demands as it is under the Media depiction section
--KD0710 (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Support. As the nom points out, all are redundant. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose removal of Russian nationalism. This is one of the primary reasons why Putin invaded Ukraine. Should be given more prominance. Note that yesterday I included it in the sub-title as the last paragraph explains the issue, but someone reversed it Ilenart626 (talk) 00:17, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Semi-Oppose. This is an extraordinarily large and complex topic which has a large number of accompanying articles, with this article (as well as the Russo-Ukrainian war article) serving as an overview/hub article. Linking to these related articles is one of the main reasons for having this article. A link should not be removed only because it is repeated on an article that's also linked from here. That being said, I'd say Colour revolution can go and the Z (military symbol) link could reasonably only retained in the propaganda section. The Russian nationalism link should be kept, as well as the Disinformation link. I'm on the fence regarding the ICC link, as the war crimes article is relatively long and it only appears fairly far down in it. It depends on how important the ICC investigation is, I suppose. Phiarc (talk) 10:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Censorship and propaganda
This whole section is one sided and shows the Western narrative. Can you please add the followings and please ad them as first paragraph (I hope you don't mind about this)
Western machine spread pro Ukrainian propaganda. On February 24, a story started to circulate online, telling of an encounter between 13 Ukrainian soldiers on Snake Island in the Black Sea and Russian warships. According to the story, part of which was captured in an audio recording, the Russians demanded that the Ukrainians surrender. Then, one of the Ukrainians told the Russian making the announcement to “go fuck yourself,” after which the Russians allegedly killed all of the Ukrainians. However, the story was wrong: the Ukrainians surrendered, and they were taken as prisoners by the Russians, not killed.
Another example of Western propaganda is the "Ghost of Kiev". According to one widely circulated post, the Ghost of Kyiv supposedly shot down four Russian fighter jets — two Su-35 Flankers, one Su-27 Flanker and one MiG-29 Fulcrum — as well as two ground-attack aircraft, so-called Su-25 Frogfoots. But the "Ghost of Kyiv" is very likely not real, but instead an imaginary hero designed to bolster Ukrainians' morale in the face of the Russian invasion. There is zero evidence the "Ghost of Kyiv" exists with Ukrainian authorities not confirming their existence. In reality the computer-generated footage of the Ghost of Kyiv winning a dogfight was made using the 2013 video game Digital Combat Simulator and uploaded by a YouTube user.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/technology/ukraine-war-misinfo.html https://readpassage.com/canadian-media-is-spreading-pro-ukraine-propaganda/ https://nypost.com/2022/02/25/who-is-the-ghost-of-kyiv-story-of-ukrainian-ace-pilot-goes-viral/ https://www.newsweek.com/who-ghost-kyiv-ukraine-fighter-pilot-mig-29-russian-fighter-jets-combat-1682651
HelenHIL (talk) 00:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Censorship and propaganda are government initiated. If you can provide RS for any western government report that is contrary to what RS reports, then you may have a cases. KD0710 (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- What is RS? HelenHIL (talk) 01:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable sources – Muboshgu (talk) 01:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Your definition of what is propaganda is not correct. Propaganda is not only government initiated. This is your definition. Can you please add the 2 paragraphs above. Nowhere have found your definition. If you still want to believe your definition then please add as first paragraph: On February 24, a story started to circulate online, which was widely reported by the Western media telling of an encounter between 13 Ukrainian soldiers on Snake Island in the Black Sea and Russian warships. According to the story, part of which was captured in an audio recording, the Russians demanded that the Ukrainians surrender. Then, one of the Ukrainians told the Russian making the announcement to “go fuck yourself,” after which the Russians allegedly killed all of the Ukrainians. All 13 Ukrainian defenders were killed in a Russian bombardment Thursday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said. "All border guards died heroically but did not give up. They will be awarded the title of Hero of Ukraine posthumously," Zelensky said. However, the story was wrong: the Ukrainians surrendered, and they were taken as prisoners by the Russians, not killed.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/25/europe/ukraine-russia-snake-island-attack-intl-hnk-ml/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/technology/ukraine-war-misinfo.html https://readpassage.com/canadian-media-is-spreading-pro-ukraine-propaganda/ HelenHIL (talk) 02:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Clearly the section is talking about a major undertaking of censorship and propaganda by the Russian government. That is notable. There is no proven undertaking to purposely mislead by any other nation (or publication) at this point. At best, the minor instances you mentioned would be in the misinformation section. KD0710 (talk) 03:30, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- HelenHIL, both of the instances of incorrect information that you mention were promptly corrected by the reliable sources that made errors early on during the fog of war. Nobody in the Western media is trying to perpetuate or defend this incorrect reporting and these reliable media outlets are issuing corrections and clarifications constantly. The willingness to correct errors is a hallmark of truly reliable sources. This is in stark contrast to the state-controlled Russian media, which is perpetuating a cloud cukooland version of reality, where it is now a criminal offense to call a war a war, and to call an invasion an invasion. Cullen328 (talk) 03:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- What constitutes cukooland version of reality is a matter of interpretation. The willingness to correct errors doesn't negate the propaganda. Maybe this is your cukooland version of reality. Simply you don't wish to acknowledge that in reality we are the "Russians" who live in a distorted world... HelenHIL (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the willingness to correct errors is a very strong indication of a broader willingness to keep propaganda to a minimum, and report the facts. Do you support the Russian decrees that criminalize the use of words like "war" and "invasion"? Does Russian state media currently show any willingness to correct fundamental errors? If so, please provide examples. Otherwise, your comments amount to false equivalency. Cullen328 (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Can you please add the paragraphs. They show examples of Western propaganda. Be objective. HelenHIL (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ghost of Kyiv even has its own article and is also a section in the disinfo article. The Snake Island back-and-forth is explained in detail in Attack on Snake Island and mentioned in some other related places. The former could be a suitable example for inclusion in the main article, the latter is not. Your proposed changes are unsuitable for direct inclusion due to tone. Phiarc (talk) 09:08, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Can you please add the paragraphs. They show examples of Western propaganda. Be objective. HelenHIL (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the willingness to correct errors is a very strong indication of a broader willingness to keep propaganda to a minimum, and report the facts. Do you support the Russian decrees that criminalize the use of words like "war" and "invasion"? Does Russian state media currently show any willingness to correct fundamental errors? If so, please provide examples. Otherwise, your comments amount to false equivalency. Cullen328 (talk) 04:18, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- What constitutes cukooland version of reality is a matter of interpretation. The willingness to correct errors doesn't negate the propaganda. Maybe this is your cukooland version of reality. Simply you don't wish to acknowledge that in reality we are the "Russians" who live in a distorted world... HelenHIL (talk) 04:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely not. This section is for Censorship and propaganda from both sides. You are making your own definitions. You have done it twice. Please add the paragraphs. HelenHIL (talk) 03:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Please also add:
Elon Musk claims that he has resisted demands from several Western countries to censor Russian news sites from his Starlink internet satellites amid the ongoing invasion of Ukraine. “Starlink has been told by some governments (not Ukraine) to block Russian news sources,” the world’s richest man tweeted over the weekend. “We will not do so unless at gunpoint.” Musk added: “Sorry to be a free speech absolutist.” The European Union forced Telegram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and TikTok to censor Russia's RT — and its channels in English, Spanish, French and German — off their platforms
https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-rt-media-telegram-ukraine/ https://nypost.com/2022/03/07/elon-musk-refuses-to-block-russian-news-sites-from-starlink/ https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/elon-musk-says-spacex-s-satellite-service-won-t-block-russian-news-sources-3m0EdxXmbUTtBOb4Mrhe — Preceding unsigned comment added by HelenHIL (talk • contribs) 03:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC) HelenHIL (talk) 03:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Addition to war crimes
https://fox8.com/news/us-embassy-calls-russias-power-plant-attack-a-war-crime/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIt%20is%20a%20war%20crime%20to%20attack%20a,and%20briefly%20raised%20fears%20of%20a%20nuclear%20disaster. Might be a little biased but it conveys the information. (But than again, who isn’t on this matter?) Megabits13 (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sadly, we can't call it a war crime unless RS do. Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Represent deaths per UN as a minimum
In the casualties section, the row for civilian deaths as per the UN is represented as a flat number, whereas the UN documents that appear to be the source (such as this one) make it fairly clear that the UN believes there have likely been many more civilian deaths, and the number they give is only the number of deaths that they have been able to corroborate. The page should probably list the number (as I'm writing this, it's 516) as a minimum, e.g. "516+". — Preceding unsigned comment added by TradeJmark (talk • contribs) 05:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Danger of repeating propaganda without checking against reality
I'm a bit concerned that in some places, we have "Ukrainian government claimed X, Russian government claimed Y", and it's entirely possible that the Ukraine claim was accurate and the Russians are just playing the game of throwing the same accusations back at the accusers to obscure the truth for the general public. The opposite is also possible, but in particular it sounds like the Russians may be intentionally agreeing to ceasefires and breaking them by shelling the evacuees over and over, just to mess with and demoralized Ukraine, and then adding a slap in the face by blaming Ukraine for breaking the ceasefire. But the problem with repeating spurious denials or spurious claims could easily show up with other issues as well. Ukraine also has every incentive to exaggerate or try to present only certain facts for propaganda purposes, so I'm not saying we should accept all of its claims at face value, either. But I can't help but notice that some recent Russian propaganda is wildly and blatantly untrue, seriously undermining the credibility of that government as a source. I'm not saying Russian claims should be dismissed out of hand, either; that could easily lead to inappropriate imbalance. I expect that within a few days of these incidents, more objective and independent or at least detailed information will become available, though it may require some deep digging and possibly looking into non-English sources. What I'm hoping is that with a bit of time we can replace the "one side said, other side said" coverage with something more concrete that lets readers better discern which side, if any, is being truthful in any given case. The idea of repeating untrue (especially verifiably untrue) propaganda from either side is a bit disturbing, and given this article is being written and read in real time, it could actually affect the course of the war. -- Beland (talk) 08:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- All very true, which is why we should really wait until this is all over, as "inaccuracies" creep into all live news story articles I have edited. I would suggest we hold off, we are not a wp:news service. Slatersteven (talk) 10:19, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- For the day or the incident and a couple of days later, we have no option but to use "He says / she says" sources. Later we'll use third parties and delete the first set of sources.. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- We do have another option. That is to stop trying to be a news service (as Wikipedia is not a newspaper) and to not cover a subject until secondary sources are published. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- For the day or the incident and a couple of days later, we have no option but to use "He says / she says" sources. Later we'll use third parties and delete the first set of sources.. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:56, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Cross-posting myself from Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Massive disregard of WP:RS in articles related to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: Just to give an example from my watchlist: This is what I had to do in order to make the article compliant with our policies. The information is arguably credible (I did not attempt to look for more sources), but the two sources added to the article are (i) partisan from the same side and (ii) do not even make an attempt to verify the info, instead citing social media belonging to some newsmakers. Note that at least one of the sources is RS, and the second one looks more or less fine. I could have reverted, I have chosen to attribute the opinions instead. This is now massively happening across hundreds of articles. There is probably very little we can do about it, since Russian reporting is clearly just a lie and should not be added in any case, and people take Ukrainian reporting subcritically and still want to add into into articles. But it is something to have in mind, that we are now full of badly sourced partisan info. As I said elsewhere, the Russian invasion should motivate us to add high-quality info to our articles but is not an excuse to lowering our standards.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm very surprised that you consider that the Russians have the incentive of agreeing to ceasefires and breaking them. How is this possible when by evacuating a city will give them the green light to heavily bomb them. Especially in the case of Mariupol where the majority of the population is Russian speaking. Why would they want to harm their people? The destruction of bridges is clearly done by the Ukrainians to stop Russian advancing not the opposite. Clearly the Ukrainians are using civilians as shields. Clearly the Ukrainians are fighting from schools and hospitals to force Russians to hit them and portrait them as bad. HelenHIL (talk) 13:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)