WikiProject Serial Killer task force | (Rated Project-class) | ||||||||||||||
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Welcome To the Serial Killer Task Force
This task force is still under construction. Please feel free to join or make recommendations on how to improve this page.
Elizabeth Báthory article
Elizabeth Báthory ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
For those that are interested in editing articles about historical figures or just ensuring the accuracy of articles about them (or appropriate tone in articles), see Talk:Elizabeth Báthory#Poor sourcing in, and accuracy of, this article. A permalink for it is here. It could use more eyes. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Renaming of the task force
This is a very confusing name as it scopes out mass murderers and spree killings. Any suggestions? Heart (talk) 03:57, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- Page used to be called simply the Serial Killer Task Force, HeartGlow30797. Can be slightly misleading I agree. True Crime Task Force? Ultimate Crime Task Force?--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- Definitely agree that it needs to be changed. What it should be renamed to... that's a toughie. The task force mainly encompasses mass murders, spree killings, and serial killers. They all, by definition, kill multiple people. Maybe we could do "Massacre task force" or something along those lines? Also, not that it would be difficult or anything, but I'll gladly create the new logo for the task force similar to the previous one. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 17:24, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- What about Serial, Spree & Mass Murderers Task Force? SSMMTK Or is that too long? --dashiellx (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yes? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Can you first define what it is you want this Wikiproject to be about? "Serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers" is what it's concerned with, according to the main page. Yet that was somehow used to arbitrarily encompass terrorist activities, including, for example, the Omagh bombing. That (and other similar articles) might be within the scope of a 'Massacres' task force, but is certainly not appropriate for a 'Serial killer' one. Decide the scope first, and the name will follow. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Ands obviously a "massacre" - multiple people killed at once - is very different to a serial killer's usual methodology of one-at-a-time over a long period. (I can't believe I just wrote that). BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:32, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
- The current scope of the project is "...to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers." From my point of view that means multiple murders committed by a single person. None of the articles about the people who conspired to commit the Omagh bombing are considered to be about serial killers. I also think very few of the other mass murder or massacre articles included in the Serial Killer task force, especially if those are also classified as terrorism events, would also have biographies of the perpetrators included in the Serial Killer task force, because they would normally be considered terrorists. If some users are inclined to have a "Massacre" or "Mass Murder" task force then go and create it as a new task force, rather than trying to co-opt this one by trying to expand it beyond its existing scope. The important distinction is that the "killers" and "murders" that fall within the scope of this task force are about people, so the primary in-scope articles will be biographies. The primary in-scope articles for a "Massacre" or "Mass Murder" task force will be criminal or military events, not the perpetrators of those events. I think these scopes are mutually exclusive and you cannot include massacres and multiple murders without excluding serial killers. Leave this task force for serial killers. Have a separate task force for mass murder. Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
- Having additional task forces would complicate matters. Many notable criminals & crimes fit multiple classifications.
- The biggest problem is this task force's misleading name. Naming it the Multiple Murder Task Force would be a significant improvement as it would much more closely describe its scope. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Articles about terrorist acts
I recently had a discussion about the Omagh bombing not being an article about a serial killer. The basic concern that the other editors had is scope creep as the scope of this project has been misinterpreted as including acts of terrorism. I think that terrorist acts should be excluded from the project scope, too, as should any military actions or attacks. This project should be confined to criminal acts of multiple instances of murder committed by a single (named) individual. Usually the articles will be biographies. Individuals who are terrorists can be included if they meet the definition of serial killer, though their terrorist acts should not be. Suicide bombers are generally not considered serial killers because they commit murder in a single act. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Being terrorism doesn't exclude mass murders from the scope of this task force. The SKTF banner says it covers mass murders, which the bombing - whose death toll was 29 - clearly was.
- The scope shouldn't be narrowed to that you suggest - murders by single named people - because many serial killers haven't been identified, including Jack the Ripper. Many serial killers don't operate alone: Fred & Rose West are an example of serial killers who operated together. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
But the scope is not limited to serial killers:
- "The goal of this task force is to update and maintain all articles relating to serial killers, mass murderers, and spree killers."
- Its quite difficult to exclude mass murders from a WikiProject about mass murderers. Dimadick (talk) 10:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, its scope is far wider than the task force's name suggests. The main problem is its misleading name. Jim Michael (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Dimadick:,@Jim Michael: While I accept that not only serial killers but also mass murderers, and spree killers are included in the scope of the task force, as those are all articles about the people who commit the multiple murder crimes. However, the criminal events themselves do not necessarily fall within the scope of the task force. An article about a mass murder that contains a biography of the mass murderer who is only notable because of the mass murder they commit would qualify as an event to include. But an article about a mass murder committed by an armed force of many unnamed insurgents, where many people were killed, and hundreds of others were terrified and fled the scene isn't really an article about a single mass murderer, in my mind. There is another WikiProject for Terrorism, so those sorts of articles do still have a WikiProject they can be assigned to. I don't see why the articles about acts of Mass Murder need to be part of the same WikiProject as their perpetrators. The scope of the Serial Killer task force is unclear on where the boundary is. Even the Crime WikiProject distinguishes between Criminal Biographies and Crime, and treats them separately. So I am not convinced both need to be in the same WikiProject. I think the scope of this task force has not been defined clearly enough to properly understand where the boundaries are and say what is included and what is not. This result in confusion and disagreement among editors, because some think articles are in scope while others think they are out of scope. Part of the issue is to do with the name, which is quite confining, and, if taken literally, would exclude mass murderers that only committed a single act that killed many people - like flying a large airliner full of passengers into a skyscraper full of people. I would be happy if the Serial Killer task force was more tightly specified with fewer article meeting the criteria, as the confusion would be less. If that resulted in a separate "Mass Murder" task force to pick up the articles that were excluded, so be it. I don't really think renaming this task force does the job effectively. A separate "Mass Murder" task force is needed. One that excludes Serial Killers. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 10:53, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- The banner is often removed from talk pages of articles that are within the task force's scope by people who haven't read the banner, who wrongly assume it only covers serial killers. The banner says it includes mass murders, which is why such articles are included. This project has too few editors, so creating a new task force would mean them both being inadequately operated. Jim Michael (talk) 11:10, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- The banner is often correctly removed from talk pages of articles that are clearly outside the scope of the "Serial Killer" "task force" (itself a problematic name!) The point of a so-called "task force" is surely to address one area, properly, not many areas, poorly. Serial killers (e.g. the fictional Hannibal Lecter) are entirely different to spree killers (e.g. the Columbine Massacre), which are themselves entirely different to mass murders (e.g. the Omagh bombing or 911). You appear to be saying that events like Bloody Sunday (1972) are within the scope of this "task force", and I really don't think that's an avenue you want to go down, because your "serial killer task force" banner would have to be added to literally hundreds of articles about The Troubles (where Arbitration remedies apply!) - and that's just one armed conflict. There is no logic to the current (claimed) scope; only approximately 1/5th of "qualifying" articles have been added to the category the "task" force claims to look after. Why single out a crime where two people are shot and both are killed as within the task force's ambit, but if one of them survives, then it's out-of-scope? Maybe concentrate on one narrow area before trying to include every criminal act where two or more people died? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Like I said, the task force's name is misleading, because as its banner clearly states, it isn't limited to serial killers. There are many more articles it applies to than are within it, because many people wrongly (but understandably) assume its scope is limited to serial killers - having not read the banner. I don't think the scope extends to fiction, so Hannibal Lecter shouldn't be included. The Columbine High School massacre & the Omagh bombing were both mass murders, so they clearly fit the scope as stated in the banner. Arbitration has nothing to do with project banners & scope. There are definitions of serial killer, spree killer & mass murder, so we can go by those. Jim Michael (talk) 17:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- It's absent from a load of articles because it was never added to them. Arbitration will come into it when you try adding it to Troubles-related articles such as Omagh bombing but omit it from Bloody Sunday (1972), where more than 29 people were killed or injured when British soldiers went on a killing spree. And again, that's only one recent conflict. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- In most cases, it's because it was never added to them, due to a) there being too few editors working on this task force & b) too few editors having read the banner which says it covers more than serial killers. In some cases, it's because it was removed despite the articles being with the stated scope. The SKTF is on the talk pages of both the Troubles massacres you mention, so I don't know why you talk about arbitration-related problems when adding it to Omagh & omitting it from Bloody Sunday. Jim Michael (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, it's on Omagh bombing because you just added it back there, despite consensus for removal. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- It fits the criteria that's stated on the project banner - we need consensus on here in order to alter its scope. It shouldn't be removed from talk pages of articles whose scope it's within. It's been removed & reinstated from many talk pages of articles about mass murders & spree killings, mostly by people who - because they haven't read the banner - assume its scope to be limited to serial killers.
- The small number of editors who've taken part in discussions on this matter this month want different modifications to the task force's name &/or scope, so there's no consensus so far to change anything. I think the most important thing is to change its misleading name. Jim Michael (talk) 18:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- Your project has a sum total of 18 editors who have more than 1,000 edits and who have edited in the past year. Many members haven't edited in the past five years. Some in over ten years. I think the most important thing might be not setting yourself up for failure. With those numbers, maybe try to do one thing well rather than... well, apparently just putting your banner onto talk pages is what the "task force" does. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
- The banner's presence on talk pages of articles within its scope brings interested editors to those articles. I agree that there should be more active editors of the SKTF, but I don't know how we can gain them. Jim Michael (talk) 09:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Your project has a sum total of 18 editors who have more than 1,000 edits and who have edited in the past year. Many members haven't edited in the past five years. Some in over ten years. I think the most important thing might be not setting yourself up for failure. With those numbers, maybe try to do one thing well rather than... well, apparently just putting your banner onto talk pages is what the "task force" does. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:36, 23 October 2021 (UTC)