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Idea: In policies and guidelines, place links to the discussion pages that shaped them -- so all Wikipedians can easily learn of the decision-making processes and rationales behind policies
Hi everyone.
- The "problem": When you lookup Wikipedia policies and guidelines it is very difficult to find out the decision-making that has shaped them.
- In other words, there is a lot of deliberation and effort that has gone into shaping those policies, but those deliberations become hard to know about unless you were taking part in them.
- When I look up policies, I often wonder: What were the pros and cons that were weighed in choosing a certain policy? What were the arguments made? How much support did the final decision get?
- In other words, there is a lot of deliberation and effort that has gone into shaping those policies, but those deliberations become hard to know about unless you were taking part in them.
- Why it matters: Wikipedians more easily learning how a policy decision was made can:
- Make Wikipedia policies more robust and stable because all the underlying argumentation is accessible to everyone
- Conversely, it can also help update some policies by more easily knowing when a policy was decided based on circumstances or arguments no longer applicable.
- Reduce potentially unnecessary discussions when new Wikipedians not privy to the original decision making repeatedly propose changes that may have been already repeatedly considered previously.
- This also helps avoid "biting newcomers" by not having to resort to "shutting down" well-intentioned proposals that seasoned editors from their vantage point see as redundant.
- Make new proposals or changes to policies much more grounded, constructive, potentially productive, by the proponent and any others being aware of previous deliberations.
- And maybe redundant but in other words: it creates a more transparent system of institutional knowledge, so that the deliberations and decision-making of earlier generations of wikipedians are visible to later generations of wikipedians.
- Idea: In the policy pages, near specific pieces of them, place small unobtrusive links to the discussion(s) that created or modified them.
- Further, to be practical, I would propose this apply going forward (new decisions get linked to their policy outcomes), but without requiring reconstructing and linking all past discussions to all existing policies, which I understand would be a near-impossible task (which speaks to the system being opaque in having decision-making and outcomes quite difficult to connect after the fact).
- And to be clear: I am not positing that the currently the policy-making discussions are completely lost; they do exist deep in the wiki and someone really motivated could dig into the years of history of conversations in the Village Pump to painstakingly reconstruct a specific decision. The point here is to make easy to find them by creating a link between the policy outcome and the policy deliberation process.
- Further, to be practical, I would propose this apply going forward (new decisions get linked to their policy outcomes), but without requiring reconstructing and linking all past discussions to all existing policies, which I understand would be a near-impossible task (which speaks to the system being opaque in having decision-making and outcomes quite difficult to connect after the fact).
- Because this is the idea lab, I am not coming here with a ready-to-implement proposal, but a more general idea/rough draft so get a sense of whether I am going in the right direction with this. What does the community think of the general sentiment? And, do you have any ideas on how to better implement it? Thank you. Al83tito (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Al83tito the refernces system can be used, along with the project talk. For example see Wikipedia:Administrators#Notes - is something like that what you are looking for? — xaosflux Talk 18:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux Yes! The footnotes of Wikipedia:Administrators#Notes are a good example, and more specifically footnote #7 links to the discussion where a decision was made. That is indeed a real-life example of what I'd wish we could consistently do going forward. And while somehow first I thought of placing links adjacent to each piece of policy, the footnote system is more natural since we usem them all the time in actual articles.
- This certainly sounds like a good idea, if it's not already done for most policies and guidelines, in that it promotes transparency and avoids reinvention of the wheel. I haven't thought about this for long yet, so there may be downsides that I haven't thought of. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like the idea, but I am not sure if it is practical. One issue is that most policy and guideline provisions have evolved over time.
- A particular provision might have first entered a policy back in 2006 - but it might have been reworded in 2010, tweaked several times between 2013 and 2016, and then reworded again in 2020… etc. Each rewording and tweak has (or should have) a related talk page discussion - and sometimes more than one. So deciding which discussion(s) to link to in the footnotes would be difficult. Blueboar (talk) 00:03, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Blueboar if I understand you correctly you make two points: 1) it is too difficult now to go back in time and figure out all the multiple discussions that led to the shaping and reshaping of a piece of policy. And what I thinks is your larger point: 2) whether looking backwards or forwards, policies typically may be reshaped many times that it is too difficult to track all the decisions points even if we start from this point forward.
- And you make good points that those are real hurdles to reckon with. I would like to brainstorm here , after identifying these challenges, if they are surmountable. I have some thoughts about potential remedies:
- This proposal would only apply going forward, so no unreasonably exacting rule is retroactively applied on existing policies and guidelines today.
- Wikipedia as a digital encyclopedia has the advantage that the space for footnotes is unlimited and mostly unobtrusive, so that multiple footnotes can be added to a piece of policy as it continues to evolve for a good number of years without creating clutter.
- By placing in-line citations at the side of each piece of policy (each sentence of paragraph as appropriate), we can keep track of individual decisions at a more granular level. The more granular we go, the less likely is that a small piece within a policy page would be changed so frequently and therefore create a problem of a too-large a cluster of in-line citations.
- I believe that many pieces of policy are quite stable, and therefore would not suffer from a challenge of "overcitation".
- Conversely, if some piece of policy undergoes numerous proposals and modifications, I think that makes it all the more valuable to place citations there to point to all the arduous past work done by the editors to come to that policy, and so any additional modifications benefit from the knowledge of all the past deliberations. I think that in the long term it would foster more stability in the rules, and better informed new proposals.
- And finally this potential a proposal could state that linking to policy bits to discussions would be a requirement only when the modification is significant (not trivial). Editors often make judgement calls on how much or little to reference a claim, for example, so I think this rule would go along those lines.
- As I was pondering more about this I realized that another simplified way to put forth this potential proposal is that what this idea is about is extending the core principle of Verifiability to also apply to Wikipedia's documentation on its policies and guidelines. Since verifiability is so central and esteemed in Wikipedia, and we have plenty of experience implementing it through reasonable in-line citations, I think we could find a reasonable way to apply it to the documentation that governs the project.
- Thanks! Al83tito (talk) 17:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Blueboar: My digging through old archives suggests that the more ancient parts of policies and guidelines tend not to have had extensive or explicit discussions that led to them, which complicates part of what's going on. The more ancient forms of WP:NPOV were (to some extent) created by Bomis employees for NuPedia without apparent extensive community discussion. NPOV is core to Wikipedia, but it's also something that (according to older versions of the page) partly predates Wikipedia itself. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 18:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- In the early days, most discussions happened off wiki (mailing lists and IRC). Talk pages – the entire concept of namespaces, in fact – did not exist until the English Wikipedia was about one year old; therefore, you will never be able to find an original talk-page discussion about anything that happened in 2001. See mw:Talk pages consultation 2019/Discussion tools in the past for more information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- On reading through the comments here I would still support this proposal with the proviso (as should be the case with anything, whether policy, guideline, essay, procedure, or something else) that it should be treated with a bit of common sense. If it cannot be done in a particular instance then don't do it, but I would have thought that in most cases where it could be at all controversial it could be done. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Phil Bridger Agreed, and thank you very much for your comments. Al83tito (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's worth pointing out that we already do this, sometimes; see the notes on Wikipedia:Drafts, for example. RfCs and other discussions are also often linked in edit summaries. I think it's a good idea and I don't see any reason why you (anyone) couldn't add more "references" like this, if you find the relevant discussion. Although it's important to bear in mind that it's by design that most of our policies evolved without explicit discussion, and lack of a reference shouldn't be taken as lack of consensus. As Mhawk10 says, some of our most important principles were never formally discussed because they have been accepted from the beginning and shaped subsequent policy. – Joe (talk) 07:44, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Joe I very much agree that in the policies and guidelines, lack of a reference shouldn't be taken as lack of consensus. Thank you.Al83tito (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm convinced that it will be taken as lack of consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- In line with this, I back adding formation and "major change/controversial change" RfCs to the bottom of the policy pages to which they apply (with formation RfCs, that seems to be fairly common for new PAGs these days anyway). I'm not sure I would support adding a reference to each new discussion (assuming it got a discussion). Nosebagbear (talk) 08:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Nosebagbear thank you for your comments. Al83tito (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Joe I very much agree that in the policies and guidelines, lack of a reference shouldn't be taken as lack of consensus. Thank you.Al83tito (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Xaosflux, @Phil Bridger, @Blueboar, @Mhawk10, @Joe,@Nosebagbear: Thank you all for your thoughtful responses to this idea; they will help it become a better idea. I will ponder on all you have said and I will try to develop a new iteration for your later consideration. Thank you very much. Al83tito (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh sure, in general, if you see some policies that have some especially important points that were discussed, you can add a reference to a past discussion, but it will take a lot of work to try to find everything. In some cases we document very extensively, but it can also make the text look complicated - see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections/ACERFC decisions to date for an example of having almost everything point to a prior discussion. — xaosflux Talk 17:39, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
We have that now.....we can see what changes were made when and all of the discussion history. North8000 (talk) 17:43, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @North8000 somewhat, sure the pages have histories - but the discussion that led to a specific revision may not be on the pages associated talk page, or linked to from an edit summary. — xaosflux Talk 21:45, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- For example, I can think of one sentence where the latest rev. took about 500,000 words, multiple RFC, spread amongst multiple archives, plus some at notice boards and Jimbo's talk page. Where would the link to that one go? :-) North8000 (talk) 22:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced by the rationale.
- Make Wikipedia policies more robust and stable because all the underlying argumentation is accessible to everyone – except that Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions, and they certainly aren't going to read the footnotes in the directions.
- Conversely, it can also help update some policies by more easily knowing when a policy was decided based on circumstances or arguments no longer applicable – You can do this now. If a page is not giving advice that you believe is helpful and relevant to your situation, you should ask about changes, and you should do this no matter what someone said or thought in the past.
- Reduce potentially unnecessary discussions when new Wikipedians not privy to the original decision making repeatedly propose changes that may have been already repeatedly considered previously – so long as newer folks are telling us about genuine problems that they're encountering, we want them to tell us about it. We don't want them to give up because it's the fifth time this has been discussed, or because a 15-year-old RFC was summed up in firm language.
- Make new proposals or changes to policies much more grounded, constructive, potentially productive, by the proponent and any others being aware of previous deliberations – anyone who wants to do that can usually find out by (a) searching the archives or (b) asking the regulars on that talk page. This is a lot of work for limited additional value.
- And maybe redundant but in other words: it creates a more transparent system of institutional knowledge, so that the deliberations and decision-making of earlier generations of wikipedians are visible to later generations of wikipedians – I agree that it is somewhat more transparent, but it will also have the very negative effect of enshrining our old decisions as The One True™ Decision.
- Overall, I think this will discourage editors from updating and adapting policies. It will tend to carve decisions in virtual stone, including decisions that were meant to be experimental or small improvements. I haven't looked up how much experience you have with policy writing (which is hard, and a distinct skillset), but to give you an idea of my vantage point, just between Wikipedia:External links and Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard and their talk pages, I've probably made more than 2,000 edits over the last 15 years. I think it's a very good guideline, and I think that I am one of the (two) best-informed editors about its contents and history, but I do not think that it would benefit from careful documentation of its history. Some changes I've made to it have been discussed; some changes have not. Some thoroughly discussed changes have been contentious and hotly disputed; some undiscussed changes have been embraced as obviously correct. Some changes we would have to describe as "undiscussed*", because the idea arose from a series of comments or situations, and having resolved individual disputes, I (or others) documented the pattern that we saw developing in these individual discussions.
- And this leads me to say: The main source for most policies, guidelines, help pages, etc., is what editors are already doing. The ideal is "After some trial and error, everyone seems to have settled on _____ already, so let's write this down as a convenience for new folks". The ideal is not a major discussion creating rules out of nowhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, but if we have had a major discussion (as we often do), what's the harm in documenting it more clearly? – Joe (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- As I said: "Overall, I think this will discourage editors from updating and adapting policies. It will tend to carve decisions in virtual stone".
- If you look at a line in a policy or guideline today, and you think it could be improved, then you might try to improve it. However, if you look at the same line and see [1][2][3][4] at the end, then you might decide that it's not worth bothering. You would probably expect someone to tell you that you have to overcome the heavy weight of four prior discussions; you might even tell yourself this story. I would also expect to see made-up rules like "There was an RFC eleven years ago about something in that paragraph, so you have to have an RFC before you can change anything in that paragraph" or "Since a total of 18 editors supported (some aspect of) the current version on those old discussions, then we should assume that all 18 of them still WP:SILENTly oppose all changes, so you have to get at least 27 editors to support your proposal, because 60% approval is really quite minimal for a change to a policy."
- The English Wikipedia needs to be able to adapt its policies and guidelines. Wikipedia:Consensus can change, even about policies and guidelines. The overall effect of this proposal is to make it more difficult to make any changes to these pages. That will result in the policies and guidelines not accurately reflecting editors' normal practices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:36, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's a stretch to say editors care about how many reference indicators are at the end of sentence on a guidance page. We already have endnotes on some policy pages pointing to underlying discussions, and none of these negative effects you are listing have come to pass. (At the recent RfC for sports-specific notability criteria, we got the opposite: the closer used the current-day results to cast doubt on the consensus that had been affirmed repeatedly in the past.) Editors continue to make changes boldly, in the same way they edit articles boldly, even with their endnotes. isaacl (talk) 05:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I don't think it's a stretch to say that some opponents of a proposed change would do this. Many editors are unaware that WP:PGBOLD is a long-standing policy, and wikilawyers regularly invent bureaucratic requirements that favor "their side". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Personally, I think those who resist minor changes are going to do so regardless of the presence of citations. I don't think it should be mandatory to point to the underlying discussions. I see too much time wasted speculating about why a passage was added, though, and so think citations can be helpful to skip ahead and actually discuss the issues at hand to determine current consensus. isaacl (talk) 20:45, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I don't think it's a stretch to say that some opponents of a proposed change would do this. Many editors are unaware that WP:PGBOLD is a long-standing policy, and wikilawyers regularly invent bureaucratic requirements that favor "their side". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- It sounds like you're describing the status quo. If you try to change a part of a policy that is based on an RfC or well-attended discussion, you'll be sharply reverted. At least with the footnotes, it's visible which parts are more or less difficult to change. – Joe (talk) 07:07, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you'll find it's more complicated than that. I can make a substantive edit to a policy or guideline without it being reverted; a newbie can't. I can copyedit a policy or guideline without it being reverted; some others can't. Some of this is skill-based (e.g., I have a pretty solid grasp of English punctuation), and some of it is knowing the our culture and systems (e.g., I know that this fairly obvious edit will someday benefit from a paper trail to protect it from wikilawyers), but some of it is reputation-based: we are slower to revert admins, highly experienced editors, people we know, etc. Even for text that is based on your "RfC or well-attended discussion", some changes can be made boldly and others will require careful negotiations.
- My concern with adding documentation is that some editors will be scared off from even attempting to make needed changes, and other editors will resist changes even more than they might now. Right now, if you try to make a change to a core policy like NPOV, it's probably going to be an uphill battle. This proposal will make it even harder than it already is. Is that what you want? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing @User:Al83tito, I'd strong oppose a "inline reference" system for the reasons WhatamIdoing mentioned. On the other hand, I would strongly be in favor of a "Past discussions" section convention which easily provides historic context for how a policy arose, without making any pretense to its validity/relevance. This strikes a balance between allowing users to be bold, and easily making historic context available, should users want to go digging. This is a very nice idea and discussion, thank you for raising it. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Core content policies contains a history section, and it might be expanded a bit without hurting anyone.
- I've contemplated writing a separate page for some of them. @Blueboar might appreciate the opportunity to write down the history of ONUS once and be done with it, and I've looked up diffs for the history of a single (not very good) sentence in NOCON at least three times now. A separate page would let you explain it and draw the relevant connections between different discussions. If you click the link to the paper trail I mentioned above, you'll see that the discussions that triggered that my proposal are not the discussion that the other editors assumed I was thinking of. This is pretty typical: we make changes because of multiple incidents involving multiple editors. It's not all about the Official™ RFC (assuming there was one, which there mostly isn't). History pages would also let you explain about the sentence that used to be there.
- That said, I don't think that we should do this for most changes. It just might be handy to have an expected place for the unusually interesting story. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing @User:Al83tito, I'd strong oppose a "inline reference" system for the reasons WhatamIdoing mentioned. On the other hand, I would strongly be in favor of a "Past discussions" section convention which easily provides historic context for how a policy arose, without making any pretense to its validity/relevance. This strikes a balance between allowing users to be bold, and easily making historic context available, should users want to go digging. This is a very nice idea and discussion, thank you for raising it. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's a stretch to say editors care about how many reference indicators are at the end of sentence on a guidance page. We already have endnotes on some policy pages pointing to underlying discussions, and none of these negative effects you are listing have come to pass. (At the recent RfC for sports-specific notability criteria, we got the opposite: the closer used the current-day results to cast doubt on the consensus that had been affirmed repeatedly in the past.) Editors continue to make changes boldly, in the same way they edit articles boldly, even with their endnotes. isaacl (talk) 05:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, but if we have had a major discussion (as we often do), what's the harm in documenting it more clearly? – Joe (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
Overzealous archiving
I've noticed a lot of article talk pages have "|minthreadstoarchive =" set to "1". If you are like me and want your watchlist to be actually remotely useful and not fire hose of ANI replies, you have the "latest edit" filter turned on. This has the unintended effect of hiding any new discussion threads opened on the talk page. That is, if "|minthreadstoarchive =" is set to one, any new topic to a talk page will be obscured from my watchlist when a bot comes by 12 hours later to archive the oldest thread. In my watchlist, I can only see that a bot archived one discussion thread. I cannot see that Randy in Boise has proposed to delete the main page.
I can't think of a legitimate reason for discussion pages to be archived on a one-for-one basis. Solution: "|minthreadstoarchive =" must always be set to ≥ "3". Thoughts? Schierbecker (talk) 00:41, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Schierbecker, I think you're expected to exclude bot edits from your watchlist. (which I don't because reasons) But with the "latest edit" filter enabled that won't help IIRC. It bugs me too, but what can you do. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 04:22, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't exclude bots either for the same reason as above. My only solution has been to nuke half my watchlist and to check more diligently. Schierbecker (talk) 04:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's best if most pages are set to
|minthreadstoarchive=4
. I thought that used to be the default, but it appears that unless you explicitly state more than 1, it will remove all except the most recent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's best if most pages are set to
- I don't exclude bots either for the same reason as above. My only solution has been to nuke half my watchlist and to check more diligently. Schierbecker (talk) 04:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think that in addition to the above, archive bots should mention the topic of the last human post in their edit summary. For pages that only have edits every two weeks, bots should also not archive anything when the most recent human edit is less than a week old. —Kusma (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think you've thought this through. What if the last human post was talk-page vandalism? I'm sure you don't want that memorialized for all time in the un-editable edit summary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Adding a new section already generates an edit summary with the new section title. So I am not so concerned. Can be oversighted the normal way if it is really that bad. Schierbecker (talk) 03:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I was imagining that the vandal would change an existing section heading, rather than adding a new section. I'm not sure that we need edit summaries that contain vandalism even if they aren't bad enough to oversight. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Adding a new section already generates an edit summary with the new section title. So I am not so concerned. Can be oversighted the normal way if it is really that bad. Schierbecker (talk) 03:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think you've thought this through. What if the last human post was talk-page vandalism? I'm sure you don't want that memorialized for all time in the un-editable edit summary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Would this not just make the problem happen once every 3 talk posts rather than every new talk section. So you would still miss 1 every 3 posts. This doesn't really fix your issue and will just create longer talk pages since when a section is ready to be archived it will need to wait until another 2 are also ready to archive. This is not a great solution to a minimal problem since it is not arduous to check a talk page which has just been archived by a bot. Terasail[✉️] 12:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- It may not be arduous, but 98% of Wikipedians don't do it. Very often, new posts to an article or Wikiproject talk page that don't get an answer in the few hours until a bot edit is top of the watchlist will not get an answer for weeks. —Kusma (talk) 12:47, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you have two memory sticks to rub together, I promise the three extra posts on the talk page will not destroy your computer. :) Schierbecker (talk) 03:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another option that may be better could be a userscript that detects and shows the summary for the previous edit before the archive in the watchlist? Terasail[✉️] 12:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- or the last section created.. Terasail[✉️] 12:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- The problem I want to solve is that others don't see my edits, not that I don't see the edits of others, so I don't see how userscripts will help. —Kusma (talk) 13:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd bet that 98% of editors don't check their watchlists at all. Most editors are inactive. Even among active ones, many don't use their watchlists or even know that they exist. Only 22% of the accounts watching this page have visited Special:Watchlist during the last 30 days, and this is a popular, high-traffic page.
- If your problem is that the default prefs setting hides bot edits from the watchlist, why don't you just see about changing that prefs setting to show bot edits? Or to show every single edit separately, so that bot edits can be hidden without the previous edits being hidden? (I personally loathe that style, but it had its supporters while they were working on mw:Help:New filters for edit review – for all I know, they might have changed the default years ago, and we're talking about a problem that only affects old-timers like us.)
- It still won't do you any good on a page like Talk:750 Seventh Avenue (number of page views that weren't you or the GA nom during the last month: likely zero, definitely less than six), because almost nobody else is watching that page in the first place, but at least on higher traffic pages, you'd see more. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:03, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- My frustration mostly comes from pages like Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany having become ghost towns (and I am aware that archive bots making watchlists suck is just a small piece of the reasons for that). There were a few years when topic-related noticeboards and WikiProject pages used to work, but they no longer do. Now the best ways to find people who know something in a topic are what they used to be before WikiProjects: either look through article histories to find experts or to ask in a less targeted place like on IRC or Discord and hope for the best. —Kusma (talk) 13:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Two quick things, @Kusma. The first is: @DannyH (WMF), remember your ideas about "neighborhoods"? We could use some thriving ones, and I wondered if you had any ideas here.
- Second, have you all tried to WP:REVIVE the group? You've got 33 people watching the page who have checked their watchlists during the last 30 days. That's not a lot, but it's probably enough. Can you ask the experienced or semi-experienced people listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory/Description/WikiProject Germany#Active Subject-Area Editors to put the WikiProject's talk page on their watchlists? This is a small favor that can bring renewed activity. Also, can you get a little 'chatter' going? It could be personal information ("Anyone visiting a new part of Germany now that travel restrictions are being lifted?", it could be talking about what you're doing ("Just cleaned up this article..."), it could be a simple project like addressing one of the smaller backlogs (start small, because you want it to be successful), it could even be a new collaboration (may I invite your group to come play at Wikivoyage for a day? Would you like to have an informal meeting at Wikimania? How about finding friends at another WikiProject, like MILHIST or FOOTY and working on an article that overlaps?). I think you've got a lot of potential. A little bit of steady effort could bring the results you wish for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- No fair being constructive while I'm busy moaning! :) Yes, doing these kind of things would help. In fact, I spent a lot of time and effort doing that kind of things over a decade ago, but it became a chore at some point and contributed to me getting burned out. I didn't know the "Active Subject-Area Editors" listing, that is a neat idea but (as usual) defeated by the combination of gnoming and a too large WikiProject (I am pretty sure BD2412, BrownHairedGirl and Ser Amantio are on this list for every single WikiProject). —Kusma (talk) 09:00, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- And if they put every single WikiProject on their watchlists (and actually checked their watchlists), then anyone asking for help at those WikiProjects would get a reply.
- I think groups work best if there are several people doing things like this. Then any individual can step back when it becomes a chore, and step up when it looks like fun again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- No fair being constructive while I'm busy moaning! :) Yes, doing these kind of things would help. In fact, I spent a lot of time and effort doing that kind of things over a decade ago, but it became a chore at some point and contributed to me getting burned out. I didn't know the "Active Subject-Area Editors" listing, that is a neat idea but (as usual) defeated by the combination of gnoming and a too large WikiProject (I am pretty sure BD2412, BrownHairedGirl and Ser Amantio are on this list for every single WikiProject). —Kusma (talk) 09:00, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- My frustration mostly comes from pages like Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany having become ghost towns (and I am aware that archive bots making watchlists suck is just a small piece of the reasons for that). There were a few years when topic-related noticeboards and WikiProject pages used to work, but they no longer do. Now the best ways to find people who know something in a topic are what they used to be before WikiProjects: either look through article histories to find experts or to ask in a less targeted place like on IRC or Discord and hope for the best. —Kusma (talk) 13:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The problem I want to solve is that others don't see my edits, not that I don't see the edits of others, so I don't see how userscripts will help. —Kusma (talk) 13:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- or the last section created.. Terasail[✉️] 12:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Another option that may be better could be a userscript that detects and shows the summary for the previous edit before the archive in the watchlist? Terasail[✉️] 12:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- As an aside, I find the "Group results by page" option on the new watchlist system to be a useful compromise (I'm not sure if I first started using it for that reason but anyway) in that it normally has everything on a page collapsed to a single line, but it allows you to see all the edits if you wanted. Alpha3031 (t • c) 13:45, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
question re options for threaded group conversations
is there any way to create or utilize some kind of threaded discussion format, i.e. similar to the internal messaging app that would be available for users of Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, etc? I think that maybe that might be highly useful here.
I guess that maybe one thing I am thinking of is having some sort of an in-box for individual messages as well as group meesage threads, available to users here, similar to what a user at facebook would routinely utilize? please feel free to let me know. thanks! --Sm8900 (talk) 17:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sm8900 you may be thinking of something like WP:FLOW. For an example of a page using Flow see mw:Talk:Talk pages project. High-level, it has a bunch of technical problems with the way we use many of our pages. A new set of tools (Wikipedia:Talk pages project) are being worked on right now, and you can enable some in your preferences to try them out. — xaosflux Talk 18:59, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sm8900 I think private group chats are a really bad idea. Wikipedia is fundamentally a very open website governed by consensus, having groups of editors discussing things behind closed doors creates all sorts of problems related to consensus building, distrust and canvassing. For an example of this have a look at the recent guerilla sceptics or wikiproject tropical cyclones arbcom cases which demonstrate many of the problems related to private chat groups. You also have to consider how these private groups will be moderated - who's going to remove illegal or grossly inappropriate content? How do you enforce policies like BLP? How do you stop wikipedia being misused as a free private messaging app by people who have no intention to contribute? We had a lot of issues moderating the semi-private "collections" feature that was introduced a few years back, moderating tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of private chat groups would be a massive job. 192.76.8.78 (talk) 15:03, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sm8900 You should have gotten a notification in your inbox that I had replied to you here. The ping notification system and your talk page basically are "some sort of an in-box for individual messages". Also, if you enable the new reply tool feature in your preferences, you will see a link to "subscribe" to individual discussions, so you get notifications whenever someone replies to them. I wouldn't say it's "similar to what a user at facebook would routinely utilize", because Wikipedia is not Facebook, and discussions here serve a different purpose and need different tools. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 15:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
CfD backlog and closing instructions
We are hosting a discussion of ideas at Wikipedia_talk:Categories_for_discussion#Backlog_reduction to reduce the notorious CfD backlog, and why it is far worse than other XfD pages.
Marcocapelle (talk · contribs) has suggested at Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_process#Attempt_to_make_instructions_for_closing_CfD_discussions_better_readable that one reason for the perennial CfD backlog is that the closing instructions at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Administrator_instructions are unclear; they have a rewrite drafted at User:Marcocapelle/sandbox2. See the relevant pages for further discussion.
At the main backlog reduction, I have suggested that WP:CFD/W should be reorganized and linked from a more visible place on the main CfD page. A planned feature for XfDcloser seeks to bypass this subpage for closures that can be implemented automatically. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for posting this here. I should add that the rewrite is not a revolutionary rewrite. One thing I have focused on in particular is to reduce the amount and depth of bulleting, because imho that makes the current text very overwhelming. Other proposed changes are commented in the proposed text. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also, if it is useful to move the proposed text to somewhere outside user space, please ping me to let me know to where. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
There was recently a thread about this somewhere but I can't find it. It's a bit of a shame WP:ADDICTED only really exists as a humorous page and there's very little helpful guidance or explanation of the topic. What do? What's the best way a serious essay could be written on the topic? — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 22:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's tons of research on internet addiction. A quick search for reviews shows a lot of free pdfs. Also remember anything NIH-funded will have a free link. Could we be so lucky as to have research specifically on Wikipedia addiction? Click here to find out!
- I've not written policy, but I imagine you could mock something up pretty quick from all this, similar to as you would write an article. I also imagine that it's best to keep it short and sweet. Everyone's heard of internet addiction, so maybe just give the rundown, note the research, and link related WP essays. As for me, I can quit anytime I want. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Also remember anything NIH-funded will have a free link
- feels like as good a time as any to recommend the excellent Unpaywall browser extension, too. I didn't find the article massively revealing, especially since its case report concerns itself with anormal reading rather than editing habits, and the four Cs of Wikipedia were also new to me. 5P I've heard about, but this link's red...- However, I agree with the gist of your comment, it would be well to have some kind of overview to link to. One problem that shouldn't be underappreciated, though, is designing such a page in a way that wouldn't lead to people routinely interpreting its linking as a personal attack. I imagine that many editors one could justifiably suspect of having a genuine addiction to this site are at least mildly controversial and used to having passive-agressive aspersions cast their way. Dr. Duh 🩺 (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think that any serious page would be an improvement over the current linking to a humor essay, so while the problem might still exist I think it will be minimized compared to the current state. Nonetheless, a very valid point to raise Doctor Duh. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 10:25, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Ixtal, were you looking for Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 189#We should find a way to increase awareness of internet addiction among Wikipedians ? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:14, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- We have an article on Internet addiction disorder. Remember that our purpose is to provide information, not to increase awareness. Blueboar (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Talking of Int. Addiction, here s a proposal of mine a couple of months ago.[1] Cinadon36 13:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Personal censoring as an option for an account
If you log in, you can select certain kinds of articles that contain material you might consider objectionable. So the article would have a tag or maybe even images would have a tag which would cause them not to be displayed unless you chose to view them. This allows individual users to prevent themselves from seeing material they find objectionable. It doesn't prevent anyone else from doing so.
2600:6C4E:1200:1E85:28F3:C4B0:B9A8:3958 (talk) 14:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- See Help:Options_to_hide_an_image If you create an account, there are several options to hide images. RudolfRed (talk) 19:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- See also m:Image filter referendum/en. Basically, enough people opposed it in 2011 that it's unlikely to happen. The opposes had a variety of reasons; offhand, common objections included:
- Someone would have to tag that.
- If I decide to put an image in an article, then anyone who refuses to look at my picture is violating my sacred free speech rights.
- Nobody will ever agree on which categories to implement, even though everyone knows that sex, disgust, and violence are the main subjects that produce complaints. (Think: stills from porn films, disgusting medical situations, and violent rapes. Complaints about spiders – the usual example given – pale in comparison to complaints about unexpected or unnecessary nudity [from Africa, most of Asia, and the US] or about violence [Europe]. As for disgusting pictures, have a look at Talk:Smallpox. Requests to remove images are probably the single most common question on that page.)
- People should not live in countries (or schools, or families) in which they can get arrested or beaten for having pictures of naked bodies and/or sex acts on their computer screens.
- "Strictly optional" means the same thing as mandatory.
- I've written these in a possibly provcative style, but these are not all entirely unreasonable objections. Someone would have to tag the images, and whenever anyone tags anything, we argue over it, and we can expect vandals to abuse it. If you build a system that permits optional blocking, then someone (e.g., a school system) might be able to find a way to make it mandatory. It's a matter of balancing rights, and the editors who participated in that discussion were not generally sympathetic to the readers' rights to read only what they wanted, and many of them were very concerned about ways such a system could fail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- I remember responding to a similar suggestion a long time ago. The gist of my response was that this is straightforward to implement as an add-on service. Build a system which lets a person view images and apply tags to them, which you then store in your database. You could publish a bit of javascript, perhaps as a gadget so it's easy for people to enable, which gets loaded each time you view an article. The gadget would find all the images, look them up in your database, and do some trivial DOM manipulation to hide the ones which match whatever set of filters the user desires.
- This seems like it would fit under the umbrella of WMS Cloud Services, so it wouldn't even cost you anything. You'd need to write the software, but nothing I described is terribly difficult. You'd also need to crowd-source people to do the tagging, but that's how everything works here.
- Just because you haven't been able to sell the community on doing it as an official part of the project doesn't mean you can't do it yourself. The hard part (by a long shot) will be finding enough people willing to do the tagging. But at least if you do it as a side project, you and your fellow taggers can agree amongst yourselves on the tagging criteria. I may not agree with your criteria, but nobody's saying I need to install your gadget. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:57, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That (the image blocking option described in the help page) works well enough for me. Thank you.
- 2600:6C4E:1200:1E85:28F3:C4B0:B9A8:3958 (talk) 07:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 186#NSFW project for wikipedia on Phabricator under construction. One person's "offensive, how dare they" ia another person's "meh". To my mind, you can block all images, or none. You can't find a happy medium that allows all the nice ones through but denies all the nasty ones. There's just been a TV prog on BBC1 about the responsibilities of social media regarding kids getting to see pics of knives. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- See also m:Image filter referendum/en. Basically, enough people opposed it in 2011 that it's unlikely to happen. The opposes had a variety of reasons; offhand, common objections included:
GA and QPQ
Should the WP:GA process contain something similar to the WP:QPQ nominations for Did you Know? This would certainly help reduce the backlog that is currently at WP:GAN while also possibly giving nominators the opportunity to branch out and gain experience in different subjects. Thoughts anyone? CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- CollectiveSolidarity, as someone who’s reviewed 30 GANs and submitted one article for GA, this is certainly an appealing idea. We should be careful that inadequate GAs don’t slip through the cracks though as a result. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd say the backlog (which I admit sucks) is preferable to people unwillingly and incompetently doing quick reviews just to satisfy the QPQ requirement. There are not enough eyes on GA reviews currently; any initiative that makes people who are not good at reviewing do more reviews needs to have something that guarantees quality standards are upheld. —Kusma (talk) 16:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- We could place recent promotions on a list, where a user with a track record of page quality control can do a quick skim (refs, images, prose, etc.) and decline the promotion if there are any outstanding issues. Think of it as similar to WP:NPR. Acting as a member of this “promotion patrol” could also count as an automatic QPQ. Perhaps a bit grandiose, but it could increase the efficiency of the system by giving prolific creators the ability to spend less time QPQ reviewing and more time improving their own GAs. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 17:07, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- No. I love writing Good articles, but I have no interest in reviewing articles submitted by others. If I were required to review other articles in order to nominate another for Good status, I'd be less inclined to expand and nominate entries. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Does anyone know why we show at WP:GAN how many reviews people have, but not how many GAs they have? (Can we shame people into doing more reviews??) —Kusma (talk) 17:26, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Given the crap that routinely gets through at DYK, it doesn't seem to be doing anything beneficial over there and I fail to see how it would work better for GAs.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:33, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be pretty wary about that for a few reasons. First, GAs should be one of the primary goals of the encyclopedia. Unlike DYKs, GAs are long lasting, and provide in-depth, well sourced, and neutral information to the reader. Second, the quality of GA reviews will likely be reduced, because the two skills are not the same. I feel qualified to write articles well enough where they make it through GAN fairly smoothly, but I am certain I would miss a fair amount that should be taken care of if I were to review an article. Third, each editor only has a certain amount of time and effort they can devote to Wikipedia. If someone is, for instance, writing GAs and doing NPP, are we willing to say that to have any more articles promoted to GA they have to cut back on NPP? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- In the past, I think I suggested this myself, but I've come around to the position that QPQ for GA would be a mistake. I've seen enough substandard GA reviews with the current process. If we required QPQ, that would just drive quality in the wrong direction. Yes, the backlog sucks, but cleaning up the backlog at the expense of quality would be worse. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS, what I would really love to see is some better reviewing tools. There's lots of good code (ie software) review tools that let you click on a line of code, enter a comment, and get an easy-to-follow threaded conversation. The current GAR process of manually editing a review document, manually pinging people, manually copy-pasting text you want to refer to, etc, is an impediment. It's what the software world calls "friction". -- RoySmith (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe something that says "Please fix ... due to criteria _____", with an easy way to flag "By the way, these parts are all just my personal opinion, since Wikipedia:Good article criteria doesn't even mention them (e.g., reference formatting, categories, templates) or says I'm not supposed to decline articles on these grounds (e.g., dead links, 95% of the MOS, details that I'm curious about)." WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS, what I would really love to see is some better reviewing tools. There's lots of good code (ie software) review tools that let you click on a line of code, enter a comment, and get an easy-to-follow threaded conversation. The current GAR process of manually editing a review document, manually pinging people, manually copy-pasting text you want to refer to, etc, is an impediment. It's what the software world calls "friction". -- RoySmith (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, the above replies show that this idea is getting thrown in the Bit bucket. A better process for reviewing is badly needed, but I doubt that a solution will ever be worked out. Apologies for not coming up with a more developed concept. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS, I am at least going to take the high road for this and try to review a nom for every one I make myself. It should be at least encouraged to pay it forward for all the reviewers out there who don’t get a Green blob for all their unsung work. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've reviewed 18 GAn and written about 60. I'm sympathetic to those who want to the clear the backlog and yes, partly for selfish reasons I don't want this rule, but there are more consequences to a shoddy GA review (e.g. bad contest masquerading as good content) than an ill-considered DYK. I've often thought to myself, "I should do more reviews" but look through the noms and not really feel qualified to review any up for consideration at that moment. An exception for the QPQ for the first few noms would also be necessary in this scenario, since undergoing only one GAn is, in my opinion, not sufficient to train someone to perform a GA review. -Indy beetle (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Addendum to 10YT
The WP:10YEARTEST seems to miss an issue that is present on some current-events-related articles I've been scanning – where recent events far overshadow the coverage that was deemed most notable when written in the article several years ago. I borrow the trope name "Arson, murder, and jaywalking" (draft essay) to describe it (for now). It's difficult to address with bold edits because the fix necessarily means removing, condensing, and replacing a great deal of well-sourced content, often in articles about politically-hot topics. Therefore I think an addendum to the RECENTISM#10YT essay section is warranted.
In searching past VP discussion there is one on RECENT news media being UNDUE that makes a few relevant points to the topic, but it's a long thread and mostly unrelated. See also a somewhat-related counterargument essay and the notability subpolicy it counters. If the substance of this addendum is worthwhile I know the writing style, length, and title will have to change significantly. I am posting here prior to taking it to the essay's talk page because this is my first essay attempt, so feedback on all issues, including fundamentals, is welcome. Thanks all. SamuelRiv (talk) 21:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @SamuelRiv, I'd suggest that you think about giving editors a path forward. You say they should think about whether the past matters. Maybe also suggest "do your best, and give grace to editors whose best guess differs from yours"? Maybe "mark your calendar and come back in a year to adjust things"? Sometimes it's obvious (we knew at the time that the most important thing that would ever happen to the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant was the Chernobyl disaster), but sometimes it's just not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think I understand. This draft would ideally be added to the RECENTISM essay following the 10YT section or as a subsection, and what you're talking about all seems covered in 10YT. The diplomatic caveats are usually at the beginning of the long-form essay (in this case, RECENTISM). Did I completely miss your point? SamuelRiv (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I thought you wanted to create a new/separate page. If you want to add this to the existing one, then I encourage you to Wikipedia:Be bold. The worst possible outcome is that you will discover someone who is equally interested in improving the page. (You'll know who it is when they revert your bold addition. ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think I understand. This draft would ideally be added to the RECENTISM essay following the 10YT section or as a subsection, and what you're talking about all seems covered in 10YT. The diplomatic caveats are usually at the beginning of the long-form essay (in this case, RECENTISM). Did I completely miss your point? SamuelRiv (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- The entire WP:10YEARTEST probably needs to be better written too. The "comprehensive rewrites" paragraph already states that citations to breaking news reports written at the time of the event "could be replaced by those to more scholarly, historical, or retrospective references created later on". And the "Just wait and see" paragraph mentions "Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events" - and that's probably true with those that will be writing tomorrow's historical and retrospective references. Zzyzx11 (talk) 15:48, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Idea: Add affiliates to WikiProject banners
Hello! I noticed that {{WikiProject Australia}} has a note about Wikimedia Australia as an option for non-editorial help. Does anyone have any thoughts on adding a default option for such in {{WPBannerMeta}}? Thanks! 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 01:14, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Vital biographies
Hello, on the contents page, there doesn't seem to be a way to view the most important biographies for Wikipedia except vital articles or list of articles every Wikipedia should have. We do a good job at covering the other major areas of Wikipedia and was hoping to develop some ideas besides the vital articles projects to figure out how we can implement the biographies in our contents page. Interstellarity (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- How do you decide which ones are the most important? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:57, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: If you go into the talk page of the vital articles project, WT:VA and WT:VA4, there has been a lot of discussion regarding which biographies are most important. The list is here. That might give us an idea on where to start with including biographies in the contents page. Interstellarity (talk) 16:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Let's not use the phrase "convicted felon" as often in the start of a Wikipedia article, while still acknowledging and being clear about what actions they have taken and what courts of law have said
I don't edit Wikipedia often, and this is my first time posting to the village pump. However, I have a criticism about how some articles start in describing someone as a convicted felon. While this might be a true fact, I think it is on one hand vague and on the other hand stigmatizing.
There are things that people are, and there can be stigma associated with it. I don't know that Wikipedia has much of a mechanism to respond to this. In the United States for example, being a convicted felon is something that can be hard for people and prevent access to all sorts of social support and job support. The phrase convicted felon is rarely put into a hyperlink so we can know more about what that even means. Is it appropriate to come out and brand someone with as a convicted felon, especially if they are famous for other things?
I don't think it is right or just. But I don't know how Wikipedia deals with questions of rightness and justice. It is really great to try to be neutral and not necessarily be into something that is justice related. I wouldn't want people to not have stigmatizing truths about them on their page because it can hurt. But one thing I think Wikipedia does do is care about is being specific and relevant.
I don't know that "convicted felon" as a phrase means much. Is it unduly creating a negative perception in the mind of the reader? I don't know. But take the example of the wikipedia article for say Annie Dookhan. It starts like this, "Annie Dookhan (born 1977) is an American convicted felon who formerly worked as a chemist at the Massachusetts Department of Public Health Drug Abuse lab[1] and admitted to falsifying evidence affecting up to 34,000 cases.[2]"
Is the notable thing about here that she was convicted of the felony, or is it the falsifying evidence affecting up to 34,000 cases?
Wouldn't it make more sense to say, Annie Dookhan is an American chemist who formerly worked as a chemist at the Massachusetts Department of Public Health Drug Abuse lab who admitted to falsifying evidence affecting up to 34,000 cases. Dookhan was sentenced to three to five years of imprisonment and two years of probation by Judge Carol S. Ball in Suffolk Superior Court, after pleading guilty to crimes relating to falsifying drug tests.
I think this is more helpful because it says that she is notable for this thing, and it was something she was sentenced to prison for. Convicted felon doesn't mean that much. there are lots of ways to be a convicted felon. Why not be specific and more precise instead of using a somewhat load but ultimately more vague phrase like convicted felon?
Can I just edit articles for clarity if I see that, or is that not a good idea? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hockeydogpizzapup (talk • contribs) 07:30, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- These things should be decided on a case by case basis. In the Dookhan case, yes I think it's more informative to lead with "chemist" than with felon. Some people become notable (or otherwise very much-defined) by the crimes they commit. I do believe its better to substitute the word "felon" with more exact descriptive, for example saying "convicted fraudster" or "convicted murderer" to be more specific. Wikipedia is not concerned with American stigmas broadly speaking (or real world impact, per WP:CENSORSHIP), but yes, I think "felon" is often an unhelpful label which offers little in the way of information. -Indy beetle (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- It might be better to put the "claim to fame" up front: "Annie Dookhan falsified evidence affecting up to 34,000 cases while working as a chemist at the Massachusetts Department of Public Health Drug Abuse lab". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I would agree that unless the absolutely only notable thing the person has done is for being a convicted criminal , this phrase should be avoided in the early part if the lede, favoring neutral terms of their occupation. How and why they were convicted likely still belong later in the lede. Masem (t) 16:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might find some arguments from a previous discussion on moralization in article leads interesting, though your point is probably better made on its own merits. You're right – "convicted felon" is pretty useless on its own. (To address EC above) Even if only the consequences of conviction are important, every jurisdiction has very different lifetime penalties for felons that have been changing over the decades, so specificity probably would still be essential in the lead. I'll start looking out for the phrase too. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Felon" on its own is not the best, though there are some people whose notability is simply that they are career criminals. For some people (like Bernie Madoff), it's easy to lump all of the sorts of crimes together by characterizing him as a "fraudster", but it might be harder for people like James Galante where there are 93 crimes that span a wildly large range of activity. I don't know else to lump together racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, Hobbs Act extortion, mail and wire fraud, witness tampering, tax fraud, and conspiracy to commit arson charges; surely we wouldn't start our articles off with "James Galante (born January 5, 1953) is an American racketeer, racketeering conspirator, extortionist, fraudster, witness tamperer, kidnapping and arson conspirator, and associate of the Genovese crime family" in the first sentence where "James Galante (born January 5, 1953) is an American convicted felon and associate of the Genovese crime family" works fine.
- I do see problems in which this phrasing can be abused to attack living people who committed a felony like fifty years ago or as a child (provided that it's a relatively minor point in their biography), but also I don't really think that this phrasing is a problem at all for biographies on subjects who are notable principally for having committed a large number of felonious crimes. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 17:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Easy: "James Galante is an American gangster/criminal/mobster (pick one), an associate of the Genovese crime family, and a real jerk." SamuelRiv (talk) 18:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Doing such is a bad idea on several levels. First, using such as the "noun" that the person is is a huge POV choice. Second, putting it in the first sentence of the lead is also a huge POV decision. Third it can be a POV "spin up". The common meaning of the term is pretty bad / serious, but in various places (even limiting it to the US) adultery, throwing something at a bus station and cutting off more than half of a sheep's ear are felonies. North8000 (talk) 17:48, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Hockeydogpizzapup. And I would add that people are rarely notable for having been convicted, but of having committed an offense. It's not as if for example no one knew who Annie Dookhan was until she was convicted of a felony. Also, the term felony is not commonly used in many countries outside the U.S. TFD (talk) 18:14, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like the idea in general that when using subjective or hostile terms, they should be spun up to explain why they apply. This is nearly always the case for successful/positive-labeled people, and should be same throughout. Masem (t) 18:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Using the term "felon" seems to be too US centric to me: the term is rarely used outside USA now. For the majority of readers it will be difficult to understand what it means (except that this is something ugly). It should be replaced with "criminal" or dropped altogether from the lead. Ruslik_Zero 20:38, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Private RevDel requests
Right all, we've all known for a long time that it makes zero sense that there's a quick way of making an Oversight request (the email), but RevDels either need to be: requested where everyone can counterproductively see them; be made on IRC; or emailed to an individual admin.
Unlike OS, it's likely not the case that all RevDel requests should ultimately be made privately. But certainly a somewhat more professional structure would be a positive.
That said, there are multiple options with corresponding negatives and positives. There is also likely scope for discussion on what advice we should give for when/how to utilise it (must/should/can/don't). Please feel free to add options. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Options
- A VRT channel - have a queue that anyone en-wiki admin can request access to, and just add an email address that individuals can email requests to. Possibly with a set-up that enhances the odds of being given the information needed to carry out a revdel.
- Something in the same vein as UTRS - a private structure designed to handle it, again with access provided on request.
Discussion
- Personally, I'd prefer the VRT channel. It has some negatives, but would be familiar to many, and more user-friendly when set against the status quo. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, I normally just email OS and mention that it probably needs a revdel, rather than OS, and let them handle it. May not be the best way, but it keeps from advertising the content that needs a revdel on-wiki. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:22, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Would certainly want to make sure any new queues aren't encouraged for RD's that don't require privacy (like old copyvio revisions that have been reverted). — xaosflux Talk 14:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Summary: Bot adds whatever {{whois}} related notice it think's is most appropriate to the user talk page of users who are editing in bad faith. I've already written a good chunk of the code, most of this is based on how that code works now or how I expect it to work when done, but it can be changed.
Goal: It's my understanding that one of the purposes of templates like {{Shared IP}} is to deter vandalism by communicating something like "You are not as anonymous as you might think you are, here is proof that we know who to contact if you do something really bad." especially the {{whois}} template. I'm not aware of any automation to the process of using these template other than Twinkle having a form that needs to be filled manually similar to what it does for warnings and welcome messages. Manually finding and filling the information is tedious and, to my knowledge, rarely done. Automating the process within certain limits may deter vandals, especially those editing from a place like a school where the IP may be registered to the school.
Suggestions on all variables, timeframes, edit numbers, etc. below are appreciated
Determination of users who are editing in bad faith: There are many things that can be checked to make this determination. The bot currently "decides" a user is editing in bad faith based on if all these criteria are met:
- The user received a standardised user warning template on their user talk page which follows the format
uw-warningname#
and where#
is3
,4
, or4im
. This indicates that someone warned the user in a way that assumes bad faith per Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings/Design guidelines#Severity levels.- The warning user is checked to ensure they have made at least
min_warner_contribs
in the lastwarner_contribs_timeframe
. This check helps prevent the bot from affecting users who are being vandalized using warning templates and users who may have been warned wrongly by less experienced users. This has not been implemented in my code yet, I am leaning towards 100 edits in the last 30 days. - The user is not warning themselves.
- The warning user is checked to ensure they have made at least
- The user has made a contribution in the last 7 days. A check like this helps ensure that warnings are valid, suggestions on the timeframe are especially appreciated.
- The user has made less than
max_user_contribs
in the lastuser_max_contribs_timeframe
. Users with substantial contributions are probably much less likely to be receiving a valid bad faith warning and are probably very unlikely to be vandalism only accounts. This has not been implemented in my code yet, I am again leaning towards 100 edits in the last 30 days. Total edits cannot be used universally because of shared IPs but IPs and accounts can be handled differently. - The bot has not edited the page in the last 36 hrs. This prevents edit warring while being short enough that if a shared IP removes a template it can be put back.
- A template from Category:Shared IP header templates does not exist on the current version of the page. The bot trusts anyone before it, including itself, to have done a better or equally good job.
- The user talk page can be edited per exclusion-compliance. Anyone who knows enough to do this probably knows enough to know what the bot is trying to communicate anyway.
Actions on IPs editing in bad faith:
- Perform a lookup to attempt to determine who the IP is registered to.
- Attempt to classify the registered owner to determine the best Category:Shared IP header templates. This code hasn't been written yet, I don't know how successful it will be but it will likely be based of regex rules in the bot's userspace which will be editable by administrators. Most rules will likely be made to match a specific ISP which has been manually classified.
- Add the determined template to the top of the user talk page. If classification fails, use a generic template like {{whois}} or possibly one made specifically for use by the bot. This code hasn't been written yet.
- Based on feedback here and consensus if proposed, perform actions on potentially related IPs
Actions on potentially related IPs: Nothing in this section has been coded yet.
- Do some checks based on the registration information and classification, maybe skip anything to do with potentially related IPs if there's some reason to think that nearby IPs might not be accessible to current IP's user.
- Scan an expanding range of the original IP, adding each meeting certain criteria to a list, until the range size reaches the registered range, the range is unreasonably big, or the list contains a certain number of IPs.
- Example: 192.168.4.65 is the IP, 192.168.0.0/16 is the registered range in CIDR notation. Start at 192.168.4.65/31, or a sensible range based on the maximum list size, scan the range for user that meet the criteria for inclusion in the list, then scan the IPs added to the range when you increase the range to 192.168.4.65/30 or whatever until you hit the maximum list size, get to your range limit, or get to 192.168.4.65/16.
- Possible limits:
- Max assigned range to do any scan: /20
- Max IPs to scan: 256 (note that these do not have to be each scanned individually, you don't need to make 256 requests to check 256 IPs)
- Max IP on list: 25
- IPv6, you can scan a whole range in one request but unless there's some way to unify 272+ talk pages and post just one message that they'll all see it's pointless.
- Possible criteria:
- Has made
w
contribution(s) in the last year - Has made less than
x
contribution(s) in the last 30 days - Has a user talk page with at least one warning of any severity on it (limiting to bad faith warnings would likely be redundant)
y
ofz
most recent contributions have been reverted
- Has made
- Once the list is done, tag the user talk page of every IP on the list with either the same template used for the original IP or with a new customized template specifically for this.
Actions on registered accounts editing in bad faith: Nothing in this section has been coded yet. Currently there is a check that excludes talk pages of all registered accounts. Having similar capabilities to what is done with IPs would require a checkuser bot and hopefully that's enough information to explain why I think it'd be a bad idea. An alternative would be to create a generic template basically saying that it is possible to connect you back to your real identity, allowing for real world consequences if you do something bad enough, but that probably won't have the same effect as seeing the name of your school, workplace, ISP, or whatever. I think it'd be worth trying that if someone was willing to analyze edits from before and during a test period to see what impact it has. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 11:16, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussion (bot)
- I haven't thought much about the rest of proposal, but I think that a bot that watches a page to handle manual requests would also be a good idea. I'm thinking of the bot going through an IP range's contributions in a time frame and tag individual IPs with the suggested template. 0xDeadbeef 13:17, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @0xDeadbeef Just to clarify are you talking about a page where users would give the bot an IP range and template + data the the bot would go through the range tagging all IPs that have made contributions within a certain timeframe using the user provided template + data? PHANTOMTECH (talk) 14:15, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and the bot could also have a feature to actively monitor new contributions from that range to insert templates and/or notify editors if needed. Let me know if this is not something we would want.
:)
0xDeadbeef 14:32, 24 June 2022 (UTC)- I like that idea, thanks :) I think temporarily monitoring the range (for a day to a few weeks depending on circumstances) could be beneficial. Permanent monitoring would require more resources over time and might end up giving notices to unrelated users that could confuse them without much justification since, with permanent monitoring, it could be months or years since the range had problems. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 14:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm interested in working on that idea if you haven't started. 0xDeadbeef 15:06, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I haven't started work on anything specific to the manually being able to request the bot tags and monitors a range thing. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm interested in working on that idea if you haven't started. 0xDeadbeef 15:06, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I like that idea, thanks :) I think temporarily monitoring the range (for a day to a few weeks depending on circumstances) could be beneficial. Permanent monitoring would require more resources over time and might end up giving notices to unrelated users that could confuse them without much justification since, with permanent monitoring, it could be months or years since the range had problems. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 14:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and the bot could also have a feature to actively monitor new contributions from that range to insert templates and/or notify editors if needed. Let me know if this is not something we would want.
- @0xDeadbeef Just to clarify are you talking about a page where users would give the bot an IP range and template + data the the bot would go through the range tagging all IPs that have made contributions within a certain timeframe using the user provided template + data? PHANTOMTECH (talk) 14:15, 24 June 2022 (UTC)