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No sig means assignment templates converted to sections don't get archived
Hello! Are you a student in CMN2160B at U. Ottawa, and you're wondering why you were pinged here? It was a mistake, my apologies! Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 22:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Sage (Wiki Ed), The sort-of Rfc on Wiki Ed assignments decided in favor of Option 3: Put the template in a new section, and update it as needed. However, this option did not include the addition of a standard user signature, which is required for bot archival. So, it seems to me, that this whole development has replaced what the majority of users originally saw as an undesirable accumulation of dashboard templates inside the Talk header that rarely got removed (but which were often collapsed), with a scheme where each assignment template gets its own section header as an independent discussion section, but no signature. Upshot: they stuck around forever before the change, they stick around forever after the change (but take up a lot more vertical space than before). Remind me why we did this, again? Or, did I miss a piece of the story? Mathglot (talk) 10:40, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Mathglot: They can still be manually archived. Maybe the archive bot could be updated to detect the new format as a valid archive-able section even without a signature? I might be able to add a signature from the first user who adds the template, without breaking the ability for the Dashboard to update the template to reflect subsequent changes (like other usernames being added or removed). Cleanly handling the removal of the section including a signature (for when a course is no longer planning to work on that article) would be a bit complicated, though.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt the archive bot would be updated to do that, as it's not its charter to do so and would open it up to all sorts of special requests, but feel free to check at User talk:Σ. If you can add a signature just from the first user who adds it, that would guarantee eventual archiving, although if the course were 4 months and archiving delay was 3 months, it would be archived before the course ended. Ideally, you should add a signature either: 1) every time the assignment template updated (there doesn't have to be any content, just the sig is enough), or 2) just update the sig line, keeping only the last one. Here's what it would look like for the top assignment section at Talk:Communication if every update was signed (example constructed from actual updates of the top assignment template):
mockup of course assignment section with {{unsig}}-style signatures added
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Here's what the top section at Talk:Communication would look like, if every update to Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Ottawa/CMN2160B_(Winter) were signed in the style of Template:Unsigned: This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2022 and 22 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zc012. Peer reviewers: Yingzhuo Yang, Ayeesha.t. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zc012 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 2 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayeesha.t (talk • contribs) 20:42, 3 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minhhang1406 (talk • contribs) 21:23, 12 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yingzhuo Yang (talk • contribs) 07:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiang jiteng (talk • contribs) 21:39, 7 March 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiang jiteng (talk • contribs) 18:27, 8 March 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minhhang1406 (talk • contribs) 04:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minhhang1406 (talk • contribs) 04:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilia226 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkbolt21 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 April 2022 (UTC) Or, another way to do it: just keep the last update, and drop the "unsig" code and use your own: This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 12 January 2022 and 22 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zc012. Peer reviewers: Yingzhuo Yang, Ayeesha.t. — Assignment last updated by Darkbolt21 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 April 2022 (UTC) Note the |
- There would be no real reason to use the "unsig" style wording, you could use a standard sig of the same style as ~~~~ with your own lead-in text, so instead of "Preceding unsigned comment added by..." you could have, "Assignment template updated by...". Further, instead of signing it every time, you could just replace the sig each time (Assignment template last updated by...") which is all that the archiving bot cares about.
- The current situation seems untenable to me. We went through this whole process to get rid of assignment templates from the page, and the current procedure does not do that, but rather, it makes it worse wrt to vertical page height, scrolling, and unwanted visibility of templates that stick around forever.
- Yes, of course, they can be manually archived, but before we started all this, they could have been manually removed from the header (in a much simpler operation than manually archiving a discussion) but people were complaining then that templates stayed on the page forever (even if collapsed) and it wasn't good enough to be able to manually remove them, so we went through the Tfd, and then the "Rfc", and bots were unleashed on existing pages to convert them, and dashboard procedures were changed to match, and after all that, it's not better, it's worse and doesn't respond to the initial motivation that started all this.
- We need to go the last mile, and tag the individual discussions with sigs so the bots can archive them. (Unless someone has a better idea.) Either a sig-every-assignment-update approach, or just a replace-the-last-sig approach works for me. The only thing that doesn't work, imho, is what we have now where converted assignment sections stay on the page forever. Mathglot (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ping "Rfc" participants: @Primefac, Sdkb, SandyGeorgia, ProcrastinatingReader, Markworthen, BilledMammal, and Tryptofish:
- Ping Tfd discussion participants not already pinged: @Gonnym, Trialpears, OwenBlacker, RexxS, Clayoquot, Femke Nijsse, Rhododendrites, Wugapodes, Ozzie10aaaa, and Nikkimaria: @The Mysterious El Willstro, Czar, Brojam, Epipelagic, El cid, el campeador, Aircorn, Sadads, Goszei, Nerd271, and Zoozaz1: @Favre1fan93, Uanfala, Daask, Senator2029, Saotura, and Dpleibovitz: Mathglot (talk) 22:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Fix ping @Femkemilene:. Mathglot (talk) 22:29, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand the issue. Any text in a talk page should be signed, whether it is by a human user or a bot. If the bot isn't signing then it should be fixed. Gonnym (talk) 22:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- The bot should sign. Strictly speaking, the archive bots only require timestamps to function, but I think the name of whoever made the section should also be there (name of bot, name of editor using tool, whatever). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:22, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree - the bot should sign. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 05:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Fine with me, too (bot signing). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Adding signatures
I'll work on this next week. (I'm on vacation to attend my sister's wedding until then.) Thanks for bringing this up, Mathglot.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:38, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure imitating the output of ~~~~ or ~~~~~ (including whatever prefixed boilerplate you want) will work. If in doubt, check with User:Σ. Enjoy the wedding! Mathglot (talk) 01:05, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Something will need to be done about existing sections too, I think, to make sure they can be archived by bots. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- If we don't really care about the actual timestamp, I can have a bot go through and put a ~~~~~ at the end of the extant template uses. Primefac (talk) 14:47, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- That'd be fine with me. Maybe a short note to make it clear it's not the actual timestamp (like unsigned. 17:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Primefac: Okay with that, but if it's not too difficult, could we use
|end_date=
from the assignment template for the bot-added timestamp? Assignment templates, like this one at Sichuan cuisine for example, typically have a course end date listed as|end_date=
. If there's no user sig or {{unsigned}} already there, can we use end_date instead of time now? If some talk page has a template for a 2016 course assignment and archiving algo=365d, it would be annoying to have it around for another year after the bot run. Mathglot (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2022 (UTC) - And then there's this assignment template added in March 2015 to Talk:Artificial intelligence with no
|end_date=
. It's still present and not bot-converted to date. Not sure if the bot could easily find that one. It does have|term=Spring 2015
, but I don't know how commonly used that param is (or was); maybe Sage (Wiki Ed) might know. Where used, the param value is often seen as "Season YYYY" as in this example, but I believe it's completely free-form text. Mathglot (talk) 05:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- If we don't really care about the actual timestamp, I can have a bot go through and put a ~~~~~ at the end of the extant template uses. Primefac (talk) 14:47, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Signature count and style
As usual, there's more than one way to do it, so I invite comments on what the signature text should look like, and whether it should leave a new sig every time (half a dozen or more updates to an assignment are not rare), or just keep one sig showing the last update, whenever it was, and by whom, replacing all earlier ones. Mathglot (talk) 04:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep the last sig only – I vote for keeping the sig representing only the last update to a given assignment template, as shown in the bottom example in the show/hide section under #No sig means assignment templates converted to sections don't get archived, above. No reason to keep all of them, and it will just uselessly expand the page even further. All other edits to the template are in the page history.
- Use this text – As for the text, I vote for the text in that same example; like this:
<span class="wikied-assignment" style="font-size:85%;">— Assignment last updated by [[User:Example1|Example1]] ([[User talk:Example1#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Example1|contribs]]) hh:mm, dd Month, YYYY (UTC)</span>
- which resolves to: — Assignment last updated by Example1 (talk • contribs) hh:mm, dd Month, YYYY (UTC)
- If you have an opinion on the signature text or how many signatures should be kept, please share it below. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 04:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that it should just be the "last updated by" signature. The other way wastes too much space, and there is still the editing history. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, this is helpful. I'll try to implement it like the above example.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that it should just be the "last updated by" signature. The other way wastes too much space, and there is still the editing history. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Signatures are now live
Thanks everyone! Signatures are now live: example. (They were actually finished a few weeks ago, but the Dashboard changed IPs recently and had been affected by a global IP block until today, so I wasn't able to confirm that the signatures were working properly until now.)--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Sage (Wiki Ed): I came to this discussion via User talk:Primefac#PrimeBOT Task 24 question and I ended up there because of an archiving related question at the Wikipedia Help Desk. My question is why are the WikiEd posts being added to the top's of talk pages when new posts are typically added to the bottoms of talk pages. Could this somehow affect the archiving of a talk page (particularly manually archived talk pages) if people are assuming that the older posts tend to be at or near the tops of the talk page? -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Marchjuly: Currently they are being added to the bottom, not the top. Here's an example of the current behavior. In the past, they were being handled more like WikiProject templates, and were being put in the top section (and were not being archived).--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also, just as a minor note Marchjuly, the location of a post on a talk page does not affect the behaviour of the archive bots - if a post is older than the minimum time, it will be archived, whether at the top or the bottom or somewhere in the middle. Primefac (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks Sage (Wiki Ed) and Primefac for clarifying things. FWIW, Talk:Dentistry (including the Wiki Ed related post) was manually archived. I'm assuming that the course in question was Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of Northern Colorado/Hearing Loss Prevention so the Wiki Ed post is no longer relevant, right? -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, that's right. Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks Sage (Wiki Ed) and Primefac for clarifying things. FWIW, Talk:Dentistry (including the Wiki Ed related post) was manually archived. I'm assuming that the course in question was Wikipedia:Wiki Ed/University of Northern Colorado/Hearing Loss Prevention so the Wiki Ed post is no longer relevant, right? -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also, just as a minor note Marchjuly, the location of a post on a talk page does not affect the behaviour of the archive bots - if a post is older than the minimum time, it will be archived, whether at the top or the bottom or somewhere in the middle. Primefac (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- Marchjuly: Currently they are being added to the bottom, not the top. Here's an example of the current behavior. In the past, they were being handled more like WikiProject templates, and were being put in the top section (and were not being archived).--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Researcher with an h-index of 7
According to Web of Science, Pascale Guiton has an h-index of 7. And I see no reason why they meet WP:PROF. The article appears based off of WP:primary sources when that is against the ethos of Wikipedia. Here, independent sources should form the basis of articles. Any thoughts otherwise, User:Ian (Wiki Ed), User:UncommonLeaders, or User:Jordanm12? I see the article is a result of this course. Ian, if the professor, student, or volunteer Wikipedians do not move forward with a deletion process within a week or so, would you please do that? Thank you. Biosthmors (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Biosthmors I don't believe that it would be appropriate for me to nominate an article for deletion using this account. Since this is an alt account, and a PAID one at that, I do not believe that it's appropriate for me to use this account to nominate any article for deletion, participate in a deletion debate (except to provide background information to people participating in the debate) or to advocate for the inclusion of any content in article space. I would certainly encourage anyone creating an article to use strongly sources than are used in this article.
- I also could not do it using my volunteer account, because doing so would amount to me using my volunteer account for the benefit of my employer, something I consider highly inappropriate. If it were an edit I would make anyway as a volunteer, I would consider it. But in a volunteer capacity, I would not nominate an article for deletion without doing an exhaustive WP:BEFORE search. I'm also not a deletionist; I believe that deleting yet another article about a Black woman from Wikipedia would do more harm to the project than leaving this one. And if I were to consider it, I wouldn't base it off an h-index, not for a person who has two first-authored papers that have been cited over 100 times, and four over 50. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 02:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- While I understand your objections, I think it would be appropriate for the Wikipedia Education Program to handle any issues that the program causes in mainspace, and that can include moving to delete articles that are created because of the program but should not have been. BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal I am happy to clear up any problems caused by student editors - including speedy deletions - but this is an article that has existed in mainspace for over a year. As a Wikipedian I feel strongly that outside organisations - like Wiki Education - should not exert editorial control over content. I'm pretty sure that idea would be a non-starter with the community. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 03:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- While I understand your objections, I think it would be appropriate for the Wikipedia Education Program to handle any issues that the program causes in mainspace, and that can include moving to delete articles that are created because of the program but should not have been. BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's reasonable to ask others to nominate this or any other article for deletion for you. If you believe that the subject is not notable - a very reasonable belief in this instance - then you should nominate it for deletion. Or don't and move on; the project isn't (usually) massively harmed if it has a few articles that some editors believe should have been deleted.
- You might get some more specific advice about the norms and expectations of scholarship in biology if you ask at projects that are frequented by biologists. WT:PROF isn't a bad place to start. ElKevbo (talk) 03:18, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- While I'm also doubtful of the subject's notability (and unfortunately less-than-notable academics seem to be a not uncommon product of Wiki-Ed courses), I full support Ian's position here. It's not really their place to evaluate articles in their capacity as a Wiki-Ed person; that's the community's responsibility at large. I don't see why they would get involved in AfDing Wiki-Ed articles unless there was some obvious emergency concern, like blatant COPYVIO. Ian's job is to be an ambassador of the Wikipedia community's standards to people in education courses. As part of that, they can and do advise course participants of what our written inclusion criteria are and when the community has determined that a given article does not meet this criteria, but it would put them in a mighty awkward position to then become involved in the AfD discussions, or make content choices on behalf of the students. If an individual editor thinks a product of a Wiki-Ed course is not notable, than nominate it for deletion yourself. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just chiming in to support Ian's nuanced position here. No prejudice against anyone else nominating it at Afd for any valid reason, but agree that that should not be Wiki Ed's role, except perhaps in an extraordinary circumstance, which this isn't. Mathglot (talk) 02:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Biosthmors Purely by chance I've been looking at this very article and I agree that it does not appear to meet the criteria for inclusion. It seems like the students on this particular course are being invited to write articles on people they are closely connected with, eg. their lecturers or fellow academics. I can't find it in me to speedily delete it or return to draft (because the author has completed his assignment now and is unlikely to return here) but I would certainly support a deletion nomination. Deb (talk) 07:32, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see a connection in this case? The course was organised at the University of Washington. Pascale Guiton is at the University of California. – Joe (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Discussion at WP:THQ § Acceptable Structure of a Wiki Article
You are invited to join the discussion at WP:THQ § Acceptable Structure of a Wiki Article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps someone from WikiEd could try and help Sleepymochi out. I don't think they're participating in a WikiEd course, but I'm not sure. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Another Species Draft
I just reviewed another draft that intends to add information to an existing article on a species:
- Draft:Comet moth (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) - Its primary name is its common name, because it has a common name as well as a binomial name, but otherwise it is similar to the drafts I encountered three weeks ago.
I have asked the submitter whether this is a class project. Sometimes we have class projects in which an instructor asks students to submit drafts of expanded versions of existing articles. We want them to update our articles, but they are wasting their own time and ours by using the wrong procedure using Articles for Creation, which is not for improvement of articles. If anyone knows anything about a project to update species articles, please discuss it here. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon I've used some version of the following to ask about things I suspect to be student assignments
Hi. I was wondering if you are working on the [...] article as part of a class assignment. If you are, could you ask your instructor to get in touch with my colleague Helaine at helaine{{@}}wikiedu.org (if you're in the US or Canada) or drop a note at the [[WP:ENB|Education noticeboard]] if you aren't? We provide free resources that they can use to help making editing a lot easier for students.
- In some cases, Helaine has gotten responses from messages like this. It might help.
- I do wonder though, where they're getting the idea that they should submit something to AFC to expand an article.I suspect it has a lot to do with the world thinking Wikipedia's editorial practices are a lot more professional than they actually are. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 03:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Issue with Dashboard FAQ question: "How do I apply for support from Wiki Education to run a Wikipedia assignment?" in terms of keeping deadline info up to date
One can see the question and response by going to: https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/faq?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=%22apply+for+support%22
The info in the response is for the previous Spring 2021 term.
To receive Wiki Education support for your Wikipedia assignment, you must apply for a spot in our program each term. The deadline for the Spring 2021 term is November 15, 2020. We will notify applicants whether we have a spot by December 11, 2020. If you're on the quarter system, please let us know if you need to know before December 11 for a Winter Quarter course. The deadline for Spring Quarter courses is February 21, 2021.
The current information for the Fall 2022 term is now at: https://wikiedu.org/teach-with-wikipedia/ so maybe it could just go something like:
To receive Wiki Education support for your Wikipedia assignment, you must apply for a spot in our program each term. Current deadline information can be found here.
If most of the classes are on a semester schedule, and there aren't that many on a quarter or other type of schedule then maybe one could just add:
To receive Wiki Education support for your Wikipedia assignment, you must apply for a spot in our program each term. Current deadline information can be found here. If you are not on a semester schedule but a quarter or other type of schedule please feel free to contact us.
And then the paragraph in the response "What if I'm on the quarter system?" could be deleted.
Jjjjjjjjjj (talk · contribs) 03:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note! I've updated it. --LiAnna (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:54, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Something good, for a change
A student editor helped uncover an apparent copyright violation: [1]. I'm sure there are lots of other good things that student editors contribute, but I just felt that it is worth making note of here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Nomination of Shein's Contributions to Global Climate Crisis for deletion
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shein's Contributions to Global Climate Crisis until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.
Happy Editing--IAmChaos 19:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Notifying you as this is a student editor. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 19:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also noting that a user has suggested bundling Fast fashion's impact on the climate crisis in China on the same grounds to the AfD. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 21:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Copyright violation problems in a course
Two students in Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/UC_San_Diego/HIEA_140_China_since_1978_(Spring_2022) have "improved" articles about Chinese technologists by copying-pasting large quantities of translations from Chinese references. (I've reverted and asked for revdel). The editors of the articles in the above discussion are also students in this course. Ian (Wiki Ed), I think the instructor needs a heads-up about this. The dashboard shows the students to have been a bit lax in training in this course. These two editors spent 52 seconds on the Plagiarism module in one case and didn't do it in the other.
I do want to add that relative to the size of Wiki Education (341 courses running at the moment with over 6000 students) we see only a small number of problems each semester. StarryGrandma (talk) 00:48, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- @StarryGrandma Thanks for letting me know. I've revdel'd the appropriate revisions on those two articles. Per IAmChaos's note above and their message here, it's apparently something went wrong in the chain of communication. It's probably too late to have much impact on this semester's work, but we will get in touch with the instructor to try to explain what's going on, and try to avoid similar problems in the future.
- Copyvio-via-translation isn't something I've really though about. It presents an interesting problem - it's something that probably should be addressed in our trainings, but doing so creates a potential WP:BEANS problem. Definitely something to address carefully. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:48, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Yet Another Species Draft
I just reviewed another sandbox submission to expand an article on a species:
- Draft:Tuberolachnus salignus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
I encounter these drafts from time to time that are submitting an expanded version of an existing article. It is almost always on a species. We have a lot of articles on species, because there are a lot of species, and many of them are stubs and can be usefully expanded. The question, again, is whether anyone knows if this is a class project, and who the instructor is. Expansion of articles is good, but Articles for Creation is not Articles for Expansion. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- All I can tell you is it isn't a student who's participating in a Wiki Education class project. --LiAnna (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:04, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
Resurrected from the archives (#KMUOS)
See Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard/Archive_21#Project_#KMUOS. @Doug Weller: One of the accounts involved in that previously, Special:Contributions/Asma_Alblooshi, has reappeared recently, and begun again with creating articles which are either terribly sourced and terribly written; or which are outright copyright infringements in (sloppy) translation... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- @RandomCanadian I'm a bit loathe to block, but there's a real problem here. I would say ANI is the best venue. He might even get offered mentorship. Doug Weller talk 14:46, 12 June 2022 (UTC)