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Out of the Shadows: The Man Behind the Steele Dossier
Out of the Shadows: The Man Behind the Steele Dossier, an ABC News documentary with George Stephanopoulos and Christopher Steele.
On October 18, 2021, this ABC News documentary aired on Hulu. It is a legitimate primary reliable source that contains content usable at the Steele dossier and Christopher Steele articles. That which is primarily about Steele would only be used at his biographical article, while some other content may be used at both articles. While most content should be sourced to secondary reliable sources which comment on the documentary, our rules for the use of primary sources allow the careful use of the documentary for some details. I suspect the right place for some of the content would be in the "Legacy" section (maybe after changing it to "Legacy and later developments"), possibly as a subsection for the documentary. We'll see out it works out, as the topic dictates the location. It may end up being nothing. The documentary revealed little real news of consequence, but it does reveal info about methods, motivations, attitudes and consequences.
I am starting a list of RS for possible use. -- Valjean (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Notes |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
A major objection to the golden showers allegation has been that some of the reports alluded to by Danchenko, who apparently didn't have the best sources for this info, came from "word of mouth and hearsay" "conversations with friends over beers" (IG Report). So be it, but people and RS often ignore that some of the seven sources were within Trump's own orbit (Millian and Cohen took it seriously) and workers at the hotel, not hookers and people joking in Moscow bars. It's a BS objection, because how else would any normal person talk about such a sticky, dripping, allegation? Of course, they'll make Trump the butt of jokes. When Moscow (and Saint Petersberg) hookers told of how their colleagues were involved in the incident, those rumors spread in the hooker community, and people always make such a topic into a joke and scorn. That doesn't mean the allegation isn't true. It's pretty much the only way such an incident would become known. So is it true? We don't know for sure, but it fits with Trump's character (he's known for sexual escapades and acts of hatred) and his own history with urolagnia (liking the sight of peeing). He liked it in Las Vegas, shortly before going to Moscow. Also, his own hatred of Obama is well-known, and it's entirely in character for Trump to come up with the idea of defiling that bed because of Obama. The Mueller Report contains a footnote that suggests that Trump may have heard that Russia had incriminating tapes of his behavior. On October 30, 2016, Michael Cohen had received a text from Giorgi Rtskhiladze reporting that he had successfully stopped the "flow of tapes from Russia". Rtskhiladze told investigators that these were compromising tapes of Trump, and Cohen told investigators he had spoken to Trump about the issue. Rtskhiladze later told investigators "he was told the tapes were fake, but he did not communicate that to Cohen".[11] So Cohen did his job as fixer. He knew what Trump was capable of doing and took the rumor seriously, treating it as a real risk. He began to investigate, using his friend Rtskhiladze, who then started researching the matter. He also treated it as a real risk. We don't know how much back-and-forth correspondence there was between them; we only get one side, but there was obviously previous contact. After a while, Rtskhiladze reported back to Cohen with the good news that he had "stopped the flow of tapes". They believed there was a risk, enough to try to avert exposure. That was part of Cohen's job as Trump's "fixer". So whether it occurred or not, there was enough risk that Trump had done such a thing that Cohen treated it as real. Innocent people don't do this. Millian was also one of the sources for the pee tape allegation, and he was inside the Trump campaign. These actions lend much weight to the evidence that the incident may have happened as alleged. It remains one of the many unproven claims, but one that is likely true. Steele still allows that the pee tape allegation may not be true. This has always been his view, often expressed as a 50-50 likelihood. Steele's partner at Orbis, Chris Burrows, as well as Steele's wife, tried to talk him out of including it, but Steele followed standard MI6 practice, which is to include everything from all sources in your original notes. Later it gets checked for accuracy, and a final report might not include it. BuzzFeed short-circuited this process by publishing the unfinished notes without permission. The fault is BuzzFeed's, not Steele's. Steele knew that Putin's FSB often included sex tapes in their kompromat, so he couldn't ignore the reports. (I don't know if Steele also factored in Trump's personality and thus the likelihood of such actions. No one who knows Trump would be surprised if this turned out to be true.) Regarding sources, Steele shares the exact same view as the FBI, revealed in the IG Report, that when a source is exposed, they get scared and try to minimize their involvement. The "confidential source will often take fright and try and downplay and underestimate what they've said and done". (Steele) That's also what the FBI previously told Horowitz. Both Danchenko and Millian did that, and Steele agrees with the FBI. Those who accuse Steele of faulty logic should accuse the FBI, but I doubt they know better than the FBI. Steele wrote 17 memos which are now known as the "Steele dossier". He doesn't like the term "dossier" "because it wasn't a dossier. It's a series of reports on a live issue, the election campaign, running through time. These reports were not collated and presented in one offering, nor were they analyzed in detail by us. Effectively, it was a running commentary. It wasn't a dossier." Steele still believes that "the evidence suggests that" "Donald Trump was colluding with the Russians".
References
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Great RS essay!
I've only just gotten to the end of the section on "Sources: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" and have gotten so much out of it. Thank you for putting together this piece of research. Like! Platonk (talk) 06:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Platonk. Thank you. I assume you're referring to this essay. A couple others that are even better are these:
- Valjean (talk) 14:52, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
Trump collusion was very real
For this section.
(after the Mueller Report) Subsequently, the Republican-led U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee issued a report finding that interactions with Russian intelligence officer Konstantin Kilimnik during the 2016 election by Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort posed a "grave counterintelligence threat".[1]
Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, reacted to the report by writing an article titled "Senate Russia report proves Trump collusion was very real. But do voters care?" He described how "the report reveals how the Trump campaign willingly engaged with Russian operatives implementing the influence effort."[2]
References
- ^ Tucker, Eric; Jalonick, Mary Clare (August 18, 2021). "Trump campaign's Russia contacts 'grave' threat, Senate says". Associated Press. Retrieved November 11, 2021.
- ^ McFaul, Michael (August 22, 2020). "Michael McFaul Senate Russia report proves Trump collusion was very real. But do voters care?". NBC News. Retrieved November 11, 2021.
Evaluating sources in the AP2, Trumpian, post-truth era
Editors should reconsider how they evaluate sources. Any source that repeatedly sows doubt about the following proven facts is not a RS:
- that Russia interfered in the 2016 election in a "sweeping and systematic" fashion;
- that their goal was to put Donald Trump in power by harming the campaign of Hillary Clinton and increasing political and social discord in the United States;
- that Trump and his campaign had myriad, illicit, secret links with Russians which they kept hidden and lied about;
- that Trump and his campaign welcomed and cooperated with the Russian interference in myriad ways;
- that the Steele dossier had no role in triggering the overall Russian interference investigation;
- that Trump did not win the 2020 election;
- that it was not stolen from him by Biden;
- that Trump attempted to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 United States presidential election;
- that the 2020 United States presidential election was the most secure in American history, and its results were not affected by any widespread voter fraud;
- that Republicans have largely defended Trump's false claims of 2020 election fraud;
- that climate change is caused by humans and is serious;
- that vaccines are safe;
- that Donald Trump is rarely truthful in any sense.
Those sources are the ones that should be removed and deprecated. We all know which sources do that and that those sources are often defended here at Wikipedia. The Washington Post and The New York Times are not such sources. -- Valjean (talk) 19:14, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
A caution issued elsewhere
Caution issued |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Mr Ernie, please don't advocate for the "Trump is the victim of a hoax" idea in any way, shape, or form, whether you tie it to the dossier or other aspects of Trump/Russia relations. The dossier is not a "hoax", and Trump is not the victim of a hoax or witch hunt. The suspicions and investigations of Trump and his campaign are all inspired by his own dubious activities. You wrote: "The "collusion" stuff has always been a hoax grounded firmly in the Steele Dossier." The "hoax" aspect of that comment of yours was improper at Wikipedia and false everywhere. Here at Wikipedia, advocacy of fringe theories is forbidden activity. It's tendentious and unwikipedian. Keep that in mind. This response to soibangla, which you edit warred over, is a case in point:
Let's unpack all the meaning packed in that fateful quote, because you are indeed a reader "who thinks Wikipedia is biased".
That was horribly unwikipedian thinking. Why deliberately go with unreliable sources? Why not agree with RS so there would be no need to argue with other editors? Instead, you violate your own advice all the time and argue with mainstream editors who get their views from the RS you don't like,
So you admit that your preferences are blockable offenses. It appears that "what interests [you] personally" is what you read on unreliable sources. That's the only way I can interpret what you wrote when compared with your frequent pushing of views found in unreliable sources and conspiracy theories. (At least you're consistent and follow your own beliefs.) Instead of "ignoring" our articles, you should read them and their sources to learn what is factual. Let your mind be guided by evidence, not by "what interests [you] personally". After a long edit war with several other editors over that content, you restored it with an alteration:
I guess you realized what part wasn't wise to utter out loud here, but you had already expressed your real disdain for our articles, for RS, and how you favor using unreliable sources. That cat is out of the bag, and we all know it. Please(!!) alter your beliefs, and, even if you don't, don't allow them to affect your discussions and editing, because it's quite evident when you are allowing that to happen. You can still do good work here if you're careful and avoid the political articles. IIRC, you have been warned several times by several admins that an WP:ARBAP2 topic ban hangs over your head if you continue to do as you are doing now. Some of your comments (like the ones above) violate our Advocacy and Fringe policies, so, if you want to avoid a topic ban or stay here at all, please follow my advice. -- Valjean (talk) 21:24, 2 December 2021 (UTC) |
The purpose of Wikipedia, AfDs and GNG
When approaching an AfD, editors should ignore all problems with the article and ask themselves only ONE question: "Does this pass our General notability guideline (GNG)?" If so, !vote Keep, as that is the ONLY relevant question at an AfD. If the article appears to fail GNG, can it be rescued by finding more RS? Then advocate for that before !voting Delete. All other concerns and problems with the article are covered by WP:PRESERVE.
Fixing and improving, not deleting, is how we roll here, and bogus AfDs violate our "purpose" here, which is to document "the sum total of human knowledge," as long as it's found in RS. Editors who create AfDs for articles that pass GNG should be trouted for undermining the very reason Wikipedia was created. If they do it repeatedly, they should be topic banned from creating AfDs.
Editors who create articles often deal with bogus AfDs from editors who are ignoring/resisting our "purpose" here. They are forgetting that "not censored" is also aimed at what they are doing.
We need a "purpose" policy that can be cited when it's violated. AfDs are often attacks against GNG: Articles that clearly pass GNG are nominated for deletion, and the reason often turns out to be a hodgepodge of dubious arguments that collectively violate our "purpose" and are basically I don't like it. While no editor can be required to create an article or to make an edit, they certainly should be sanctioned if they get in the way of the creation of an article that passes GNG. This kind of extreme (actually very common!) deletionism is wrong. We should aid the creation of articles and content. We're here to build, not destroy.
Our job (purpose here) is to document "the sum total of human knowledge,"[1][2] and editors must not leave or create holes in our coverage.
Editors must not exercise censorship; they must present all significant sides of any controversy and document the opposing points of view, and they must not shield readers from such views. To leave out one side amounts to promoting the other side's POV. Wikipedia should include more information than other encyclopedias, not less. Our goal is to document "the sum total of human knowledge,"[1] and censorship seriously undermines that goal.
Because Wikipedia is created through inclusionism, another objection to deletion of content is that deletion "goes against the entire basic premise" of Wikipedia: "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." — Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia.[3] We try to build content, not break it down. Imperfect content is not removed, it is improved. Good faith editors should not be made to feel their work is in vain.
Wikipedia isn't just another encyclopedia. It aims to be exhaustive in an unlimited sense. It should be unlike all others in scope and size. It is the Internet Archive of knowledge. If a piece of knowledge is notable enough (mention in multiple RS), an article should be created for it, or (if only mentioned in one or two RS) it should at least be mentioned in an existing article or list. We need to be super-inclusive. I have an essay which deals with how NPOV deals with biased sources, and it touches on these subjects: NPOV means neutral editing, not neutral content. -- Valjean (talk) 17:13, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Battles, Matthew (July 12, 2012), Wikipedia and the sum of human knowledge, metaLAB (at) Harvard, retrieved October 22, 2015
- ^ Jerney, John (October 22, 2002), "The Wikipedia: The encyclopedia for the rest of us", The Daily Yomiuri, retrieved October 22, 2015
Quote: "In particular, the goal of the Wikipedia is to produce the best encyclopedia encapsulating the sum total of human knowledge.... [It] offers the possibility of everything being written into history, with all of mankind sharing knowledge and information in a way that enables everyone to profit from it." — Wikipedia:Testimonials
- ^ Wales, Jimmy (August 2006), The birth of Wikipedia, TED Talks, retrieved December 5, 2015
Fringe beliefs
Copied from User talk:Stiabhna#Fringe beliefs.
I'm trying to save you so you can end up a good editor. Read what follows with that in mind.
Like I wrote above, you are allowed to believe whatever you want, but openly advocating things that are pushed by unreliable sources and are contrary to what reliable sources say places you right in the middle of a "fringe editor" target. On your user page you have written your political beliefs:
- Proud anti-vaxxer
- Proud supporter of current President of the United States Donald Trump
- The 2021 Storming of the United States Capitol was a coup perpetrated by Nancy Pelosi and the far-left Democrat Party
You should not be proud that you believe in that trifecta of misinformation. You need to catch up with the facts, so please read the following articles and their sources. :
- Public health is not a private matter. Your actions can literally kill other people.
Read: Vaccine hesitancy, Misinformation related to vaccination, COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy in the United States, Measles resurgence in the United States - Trump is a former president, so never again call him the "current" president. That will likely get you blocked for forbidden advocacy of fringe beliefs. Trump uses both the "Big Lie" and "Firehose of falsehood" propaganda techniques.
Read: Big lie# Trump's false claim of a stolen election, Veracity of statements by Donald Trump, Trumpism, Firehose of falsehood[1][2][3][4][5][6] - There is no evidence that Pelosi or the left-wing had anything to do with that coup attempt. Trump's supporters marched from his meeting at the White House to the Capitol and did what they did. Trump and his friends planned and inspired what happened that day. Even McConnell said it was all Trump's fault.
Read: Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election, 2021 Storming of the United States Capitol.
I hope you will bring your beliefs into line with the facts. Facts matter, and it's important to keep your beliefs up-to-date and always follow the evidence:
- "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - William Kingdon Clifford
- "A habit of basing convictions upon evidence, and of giving to them only that degree of certainty which the evidence warrants, would, if it became general, cure most of the ills from which this world is suffering." - Bertrand Russell
Our articles are based on reliable sources, so you can generally trust them to be factual. Please believe them. -- Valjean (talk) 01:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Paul, Christopher; Matthews, Miriam (January 1, 2016). "The Russian 'Firehose of Falsehood' Propaganda Model: Why It Might Work and Options to Counter It". RAND Corporation. doi:10.7249/PE198. JSTOR resrep02439.
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help) - ^ Brian Stelter (November 30, 2020). "'Firehose of falsehood:' How Trump is trying to confuse the public about the election outcome". CNN.
- ^ Maza, Carlos (August 31, 2018). "Why obvious lies make great propaganda". Vox.
- ^ Zappone, Chris (October 12, 2016). "Donald Trump campaign's 'firehose of falsehoods' has parallels with Russian propaganda". The Sydney Morning Herald.
- ^ Harford, Tim (May 6, 2021). "What magic teaches us about misinformation". Financial Times.
- ^ Clifton, Denise (August 3, 2017). "Trump's nonstop lies may be a far darker problem than many realize". Mother Jones.
thanks
for adding the judge's paragraph in a text box, nicely illustrates that section. However, FYI, I was uncomfortable including the last line in the text box, for reasons in my EditSum when I took it out. [1] FYI, I'm collecting RSs and quotes for "Trump" "Coup".... including any analysis (not just hand waving) that says it was not coup (which so far is zero).... at my Sandbox2 (note the 2 on the end). Feel free to add similarly formatted suggested additions via the associated talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- NewsAndEventsGuy, I have now added your sandbox to my watchlist. As far as the quote goes, since it's not from some hyperpartisan source, WP:Advocacy does not apply. It applies mostly to fringe, one-sided POV, especially advocacy of unreliable and false content found only in unreliable sources. Otherwise, we encourage "advocacy" of RS and facts, especially when there is no dispute among RS. If there was widespread dispute among RS, we should not appear to take one side, but at Wikipedia we always side with the maintream consensus of RS. That's policy. This is from a federal judge and is fully mainstream, so I urge you to restore it. It is his "Reaction" (section title), and therefore his well-formulated personal POV is perfectly acceptable. WE, as in Wikipedia editors, are not advocating or pushing OUR POV. We are letting him speak, and he's saying clearly what many other leading sources say. Hillary Clinton: "We are standing on the precipice of losing our democracy."[2]
- Bill Clinton:
- “I actually think there’s a fair chance that we could completely lose our constitutional democracy for a couple of decades if we keep making — if we make bad decisions,” Clinton, 75, said.
- “I’m not naive about this. I’ve been in a lot of fights. I’ve lost some, won a bunch. I’ve been elated and heartbroken,” he continued.
- “But I’ve never before been as worried about the structure of our democratic form of government,” [3]
- We live in scary times. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 09:07, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yep but there's still a lovely meadow somewhere in the world, hope you get to picnic in one with good company soon. Carry on NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am! I'm in Denmark right now and spending time at a summer house by a lake. We lay in the sun and take walks by the lake near the reeds and trees. Lots of green cherries, wildflowers, stinging nettles, limestone and flint (the only rocks native to Denmark, with all others pushed there by glaciers from Norway and Sweden during the ice ages), poplars, birch, weeping willow, evergreens, orange-red poppy flowers in the wheat fields, golden fields of rapeseed flowers, nightingales, doves, crows, ravens, larks, and water birds. (See List of birds of Denmark. What bliss! Clean air and water. Low crime, happy, secure, and highly-educated people. No mass shootings. Now rated the most competitive economy in the world. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 09:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Lucky Duck NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Aaaaaargh, my eyes. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 10:13, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Lucky Duck NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am! I'm in Denmark right now and spending time at a summer house by a lake. We lay in the sun and take walks by the lake near the reeds and trees. Lots of green cherries, wildflowers, stinging nettles, limestone and flint (the only rocks native to Denmark, with all others pushed there by glaciers from Norway and Sweden during the ice ages), poplars, birch, weeping willow, evergreens, orange-red poppy flowers in the wheat fields, golden fields of rapeseed flowers, nightingales, doves, crows, ravens, larks, and water birds. (See List of birds of Denmark. What bliss! Clean air and water. Low crime, happy, secure, and highly-educated people. No mass shootings. Now rated the most competitive economy in the world. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 09:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yep but there's still a lovely meadow somewhere in the world, hope you get to picnic in one with good company soon. Carry on NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:31, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
markup for line breaks in text boxes
Hi, I don't need (or want) to discuss this...... I only know enough about Adaptive web design to ask a question, but I don't really want to learn the answer..... if you're happy after I ask it, I'm happy.
I noticed you used wikimarkup in the textbox to force line breaks. They look fine on my fullsize desktop. Do you already know how that will display on a wide range of devices using both the web and app versions of the en.wiki? Or how it gets crunched when other platforms echo our articles? I was just wondering if maybe such things are reasons to let the text line returns and box length-width change automatically to fit the users technology for best viewing? But like I said, I'm not really interested in learning the tech side of our markup magic, so I'll just leave you to wonder if the line breakmarkup should be reevaluated, or if its good as is. Thanks for caring. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing this up. No, I don't know, but now that you mention it, I fear it could be problematic for some. What I want is to keep the text in a box at the right, and that's the way I could do it. Without the line breaks, the box would stretch all the way across the page. There must be a better way to create such a box at the right. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might see if your browser has an option for "responsive design mode". Via software, this mode will attempt to show you what the code will display on various devices. Although if you look at the browser based Wikipedia page on, say, a virtual Samsung phone, you see the web version on the virtual Samsung phone... and those users are probably using the mobile wiki app. That's the extent of my knowledge on this subject. Good luck. Have you ever asked for help at the TeaHouse? Its an amazing pool of talent. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Now at Wikipedia:Teahouse#How_to_format_a_textbox_of_a_certain_size. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Cool, I guess I'm just interested enough to lurk there and maybe learn something despite myself NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- We are both what the Danes call "videbegærlig" (love of learning; curious), and this is a great place to do it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Most of my siblings translate that word as "lost dreamer" NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:54, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- We are both what the Danes call "videbegærlig" (love of learning; curious), and this is a great place to do it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Cool, I guess I'm just interested enough to lurk there and maybe learn something despite myself NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Now at Wikipedia:Teahouse#How_to_format_a_textbox_of_a_certain_size. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- You might see if your browser has an option for "responsive design mode". Via software, this mode will attempt to show you what the code will display on various devices. Although if you look at the browser based Wikipedia page on, say, a virtual Samsung phone, you see the web version on the virtual Samsung phone... and those users are probably using the mobile wiki app. That's the extent of my knowledge on this subject. Good luck. Have you ever asked for help at the TeaHouse? Its an amazing pool of talent. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)