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Discussion on overall structure
Should floods and droughts be in the section on weather?
I'm undecided: currently floods and droughts is in the section called "Effects on wildlife and nature". I am wondering if most readers would expect them to be in the section on "weather"? Or even in "effects on humans"? EMsmile (talk) 18:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I'm very keen on reverting back to only having two subsections in 'wildlife and nature": ecosystems on land, and ecosystems in the ocean.
- As such, I would place the physics of wildfires and floods in the "physical effects" section, and namedrop them in other sections where appropriate (for instance, just note that drought affect agriculture). Femke (talk) 18:49, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I am unsure if the general public things of floods and droughts as a "weather" phenomenon rather than a "physical effects" phenomenon? I mean, both are so closely related to precipitation (too much of it, too little of it). Should they therefore be in the weather section? (I haven't checked yet where the IPCC report places them)EMsmile (talk) 08:44, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- About the oceans section: my idea was to make it a Level 1 heading as it's such a massively important topic. I felt that its sub-headings should be visible in the TOC, like "ocean acidification". Also, it would ensure everything is in one place. If you split it up, e.g. "ecosystems in the ocean" back into the "wildlife and nature" section, the rest into the "physical effects" section then the ocean material is not all in the same section anymore. There is so much overlap between the warming, acidification, effects on animals that I felt it would be better to keep it all together. Overall, I am trying to make it easy for readers to find what they are looking for. The term "effects on physical environment" is not easy to grasp for a layperson. Can we call it something simpler? EMsmile (talk) 08:44, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
- If we want to have ocean as its own section (and I agree sea level rise and ocean acidification belong in the TOC), we need to structure the rest of the article among the same lines. So having all components of the climate system as it's own heading
- Atmosphere (we could say weather, for ease of reading)
- On land
- Ocean
- Biosphere (wildlife and nature, for ease of reading)
- Again, I'm very strongly against mixing climate change 'changes' and 'impacts' in the same section. I really like how the Met Office visualises this: as concentrating circles. It starts with rising GHG levels, then changes in the physical environment, then how this affects life. Pinging @Beland here as well, as they've rewritten the ocean section. Femke (talk) 07:59, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- Also would like @Chidgk1's opinion here. Does the above structure make sense? Femke (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ah sorry, I didn't see this before making the change that I just did about "marine ecosystem", where I moved that paragraph back to the "wildlife and nature" section. I'm a bit undecided what to think of the shortened "ocean" section. Now that it's been shortened that much one could argue it might as well just be an excerpt from the other article (e.g. copy this text across to effects of climate change on oceans, then make into excerpt (with a fully cited lead). I would have preferred to have sea level rise and ocean acidification appearing in the TOC. Come to think of it, sea level rise really ought to be in the TOC, doesn't it? EMsmile (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- What do you think of the overall structure? With the next level, this could become:
- 1 Observed and future warming
- 2 Effects on weather
- (Atmosphere)
- 2.1 Precipitation
- 2.2 Heat waves and temperature extremes
- 2.3 Tropical cyclones and storms
- 3 On land
4.1 Atmosphere- 3.1 Floods
- 3.2 Droughts
- 3.3 Wildfires
- 3.4 Biogeochemical cycles
- 3.5 Permafrost
- 3.6 Ice and snow
- 4 Effects on oceans
- 3.1 Sea level rise
- 3.2 Acidification
- 3.3 Sea ice
- 5 Effects on wildlife and nature
- 5.1 Terrestrial and wetland systems
- 5.2 Marine ecosystems
- This has the disadvantage compared to the current structure that biochemical cycles is very much between the different components of the climate system, so its classification under land is rather arbitrary.. Femke (talk) 08:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ah sorry, I didn't see this before making the change that I just did about "marine ecosystem", where I moved that paragraph back to the "wildlife and nature" section. I'm a bit undecided what to think of the shortened "ocean" section. Now that it's been shortened that much one could argue it might as well just be an excerpt from the other article (e.g. copy this text across to effects of climate change on oceans, then make into excerpt (with a fully cited lead). I would have preferred to have sea level rise and ocean acidification appearing in the TOC. Come to think of it, sea level rise really ought to be in the TOC, doesn't it? EMsmile (talk) 22:07, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- Also would like @Chidgk1's opinion here. Does the above structure make sense? Femke (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- If we want to have ocean as its own section (and I agree sea level rise and ocean acidification belong in the TOC), we need to structure the rest of the article among the same lines. So having all components of the climate system as it's own heading
- Re the headline question I like that you have put floods and droughts under "land". Re the top level sections above I also like them such as "weather" and "wildlife and nature" as quite understandable: but things like economic and political effects don't seem to be included. Not sure best heading for those kind of things. I guess "Political, economic and social implications" as suggested earlier or ""Political, economic and social effects"? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:09, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- I am confused what people mean by "on land". Is it the same as terrestrial? Then shouldn't the section that is called "on wildlife and nature" be below "on land"? Also isn't there overlap between "weather" and "on land"? I do like the distinction between "land ice" and "sea ice", this could be helpful. If we decide to return to having a sub-structure for the section "on oceans" (and I do think that's useful for those terms to appear in the TOC), then I wonder whether "marine ecosystems" fits better under "on oceans"? And as a general comment, we should be consistent: either include the "effects on..." in every section heading or not include it in any. So then it would become "Effects on land" which sounds a little bit weird. EMsmile (talk) 12:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, on land and terrestrial are the same. The second main reason I'd like to treat effects and impacts in different section is that that makes it more likely impacts on ecosystems get WP:DUE weight. Currently, we're dedicating too little attention to this compared to the IPCC. If we put impacts on life under the 'ocean' or 'land' subsection, they risk staying rather small. Femke (talk) 08:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
- I am confused what people mean by "on land". Is it the same as terrestrial? Then shouldn't the section that is called "on wildlife and nature" be below "on land"? Also isn't there overlap between "weather" and "on land"? I do like the distinction between "land ice" and "sea ice", this could be helpful. If we decide to return to having a sub-structure for the section "on oceans" (and I do think that's useful for those terms to appear in the TOC), then I wonder whether "marine ecosystems" fits better under "on oceans"? And as a general comment, we should be consistent: either include the "effects on..." in every section heading or not include it in any. So then it would become "Effects on land" which sounds a little bit weird. EMsmile (talk) 12:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Re the headline question I like that you have put floods and droughts under "land". Re the top level sections above I also like them such as "weather" and "wildlife and nature" as quite understandable: but things like economic and political effects don't seem to be included. Not sure best heading for those kind of things. I guess "Political, economic and social implications" as suggested earlier or ""Political, economic and social effects"? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:09, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Continuing discussion on structure
Coming back to our discussion on structure. I have now moved droughts, floods and wildfires to the section on "weather" as I felt that for the general public those things are usually related to weather conditions, e.g. a drought often leads to a wildfire. Perhaps the section title should become "weather and related effects"? Hmmm... So the current structure looks like this now:
1 Observed and future warming 1.1Greenhouse gas emissions scenarios
2 Weather 2.1Precipitation (rainfall) 2.2Heat waves and temperature extremes 2.3Tropical cyclones and storms 2.4Floods 2.5Droughts 2.6Wildfires
3 Oceans 3.1Sea level rise 3.2Ocean acidification
3.3Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)
4 Ice and snow 4.1Glaciers and ice sheets 4.2Sea ice 4.3Greenland and West Antarctic Ice sheets 4.4Permafrost thawing
5 Wildlife and nature 5.1Terrestrial and wetland systems 5.2Marine ecosystems
6 Abrupt or irreversible changes 6.1Tipping points 6.2Irreversible impacts
7 Impacts on humans 7.1Health 7.2Agriculture 7.3Water security 7.4Economic impact 7.5Displacement and migration 7.6Conflict 7.7Social impacts on vulnerable groups 7.8Human settlement 7.9 Especially affected regions
- Earlier on you (Femkemilene) suggested a section called "on land" but I wonder if that is IPCC jargon perhaps... As a layperson, the term "on land" means nothing to me. Cities are on land, forests, floods affect land. So anything that is not in the ocean could be "on land". So I find that too vague and don't think it would help us to have a section called "on land". With regards to impacts on humans, I am pondering if that should perhaps be renamed to "Political, economic and social implications" (see also comment by User:Chidgk1 above). Because impacts on humans is maybe too vague as well, given that all the other things like sea level rise, heat waves, floods etc. also all affect humans. So splitting off "effects on humans" seems somewhat unhelpful, as if we could clearly delineate which effects of climate change impact on humans and which don't. They all impact humans directly or indirectly, don't they? EMsmile (talk) 15:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- You mentioned above this website (https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/climate-change/effects-of-climate-change) which tries to differentiate between changes (effects?) and impacts. Their listing looks like this:
Changes to the climate system:
- Changes in the hydrological cycle
- Warmer land and air
- Warming oceans
- Melting ice
- Rising sea levels
- Ocean acidification
- Global greening
- Changes in ocean currents
- More extreme weather
Impacts of climate change:
- Risk to water supplies
- Conflict and climate migrants
- Localised flooding
- Flooding of coastal regions
- Damage to marine ecosystems
- Fisheries failing
- Loss of biodiversity
- Change in seasonality
- Heat stress
- Habitable region of pests expands
- Forest mortality and increased risk of fires
- Damage to infrastructure
- Food insecurity
When we talk of "effects of climate change" in our article title, we mean the changes and the impacts, don't we. EMsmile (talk) 15:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've changed the section headings now to help us delineate changes from impacts. Does this work?:
- 1Observed and future changes in temperature
- 2Weather-related changes
- 3Weather-related impacts
- 4Changes for oceans
- 5Ice and snow changes
- 6Wildlife and nature impacts
- 7Abrupt changes and irreversible impacts
- 8Impacts on humans
- 8.1Health
- 8.2Agriculture
- 8.3Water security
- 8.4Economic impact
- 8.5Displacement and migration
- 8.6Conflict
- 8.7Social impacts on vulnerable groups
- 8.8Human settlements
- 8.9Impacts for humans in especially affected regions EMsmile (talk) 15:53, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think the current top-level structure works. Thanks for rearranging. Also happy with a rename of the "On humans" section into Socio-economic impacts. Not sure if food and health fall under that term. We could split the human section into two as well
- 8. Health and food
- 8.1 Health
- 8.2 Food security
- 8.3 Water security
- 9. Socio-economic impact
- 9.1 Economic impact
- 9.2 Impacts on vulnerable groups
- 9.3 Displacement
- 9.4 Conflict
- 9.5 Human settlements
- 9.6 Especially affected regions
- Femke (talk) 18:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Super, I am really glad you like the new structure (I was a bit nervous as it was a big change). I have now split up the section "on humans" as per your suggestion. It's a bit difficult with the agriculture content because I often also see it in the economic impacts sections of articles. Also we should not forget marine food production which might be hugely impacted as well (that's why I added it to the food security section). - The climate change article links to the "on humans" section of this article. Where should it link now instead? EMsmile (talk) 14:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
GA: to do list
Feel free to add more things to the list, or write your name if you want to tackle something. I'm still finding duplications of ideas from the almost finished merges. Pinging @EMsmile: and @Chidgk1:
- Decide on structure Done
- Make sure all section have appropriate weight
- Check if all excerpts agree with RfC. Replace the excerpt about glaciers with up-to-date text
- Expand subsection terrestrial a bit (+50%?)
- Integrate tipping points into the text Done
- Update (we cite the 2007 IPCC report about 40 times, a lot of which needs updating)
- Update sea level rise (Femke) Done
- Food security
- Water security Done
- Health (note that we need WP:MEDRS)
- Economics (note that the excerpt is partially off-topic, and partially duplicates food security)
- More?
- Completely rewrite displacement (partially written by topic-banned user, who did not take text-source integrity seriously). Condense to two/three paragraphs (Femke)
- Further eliminate systemic bias (Nigeria + India + China + Indonesia are now mentioned less than the US)
- Textual
- Graphs and photos
- Tag and address unreliable sources/missing sources
- Sign up for WP:GOCE
- Improve the section on precipitation (reduce repetition, decide on using only newer sources or also keeping those older sources, e.g. NOAA 2007)
Optional
- See if the misalignment of figures from excerpts can be fixed by technical editors
- Provide alts for figures Femke (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is a great list, thanks for putting it together. It's a daunting task but overall worthwhile to do. I'll try to contribute where I can. EMsmile (talk) 12:03, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Question about water security section
Do all the sentences in that section come from the sources that are mentioned? Some of the sentences seem to be unsourced, like "Between 1.5 and 2.5 billion people live in areas with regular water security issues. If global warming would reach 4 °C, water insecurity would affect about twice as many people. Water resources are projected to decrease in most dry subtropical regions and mid-latitudes, but increase in high latitudes." EMsmile (talk) 12:07, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, the standard way of citing on Wikipedia is not one citation per sentence. See WP:CITEDENSE. Within a paragraph, a source is typically expected to cover everything back to the previous source. So when you add a new sentence+new source mid-paragraph in a paragraph with one citation, you may be to duplicate the citation. It's not a policy, so you're allowed to put redundant citations in. I usually take them out, as it's a small impediment to readability. Femke (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think the rule "one reference per paragraph, not one reference per sentence" is fine when the sentences clearly belong together and can be found in the same section of the publication. This is not the case here. I tried to find the exact page number for the three sentences of this paragraph and failed "Between 1.5 and 2.5 billion people live in areas with regular water security issues. If global warming would reach 4 °C, water insecurity would affect about twice as many people. Water resources are projected to decrease in most dry subtropical regions and mid-latitudes, but increase in high latitudes. As streamflow becomes more variable, even regions with increased water resources can experience additional short-term shortages". Apparently they are all from the 5th IPCC report but where?: https://archive.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/wg2/WGIIAR5-Chap3_FINAL.pdf The third sentence I could maybe guess came from page 236 but nowhere do I find something about 1.5-2.5 billion people. What I do find is this "About 80% of the world’s population already suffers serious threats to its water security." but that's different. I also searched for the exact source of the second sentence but could not find it in that IPCC report. In any case, I think the three sentences (if they really did come from the same reference) ought to be strung together with a logical flow. Words like "therefore", "despite of this" and so forth would show that they belong together. EMsmile (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- I also find the current formulation misleading as it makes it appear that water security is directly a climate change issue. The point is that climate change makes it worse but the other factors leading to water scarcity might be more directly to be blamed (and possibly easier to address); see article on water scarcity. It's easy nowadays to blame every existing problem on climate change, I think we need to be careful with that with respect to water availability. EMsmile (talk) 10:59, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- Completely overlooked that citation to AR5. Now clarified it's found in the AR6 citation. I read it differently from you, but feel free to add something about other factors that impact water security (population / food production). I think it would be misleading to say that water security isn't direclty a climate change issue: According to AR6 WGII FAQ4.2 in the Water chapter:
Nearly half a billion people are living in unfamiliar wet conditions, mostly in mid- and high-latitudes, and over 160 million people are living in unfamiliar dry conditions, mostly in the tropics and sub-tropics.
Femke (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2022 (UTC)- I'll take another look at it soon. Thanks for replacing AR5 with AR6 for this. Water resources have been stretched to the limit in many cases due to rapid population growth, "wasting" a lot of water, more and more irrigation in agriculture, building and growing cities in the "wrong places" (arid climates) and using fossil groundwater for water supply etc. Add climate change on top of it and of course it'll make it all worse still! It's like floods, wildfires and droughts: they were there before as well but climate change makes them worse/more frequent etc.... EMsmile (talk) 14:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- Completely overlooked that citation to AR5. Now clarified it's found in the AR6 citation. I read it differently from you, but feel free to add something about other factors that impact water security (population / food production). I think it would be misleading to say that water security isn't direclty a climate change issue: According to AR6 WGII FAQ4.2 in the Water chapter:
Sentence about contrasts in precipitation amounts
(moved from above): Regarding this sentence, I also didn't understand it: "Warming has increased contrasts in precipitation amounts between wet and dry seasons and weather regimes over tropical lands.[1]" I have discussed the sentence in question further with Thian. He suggests this new wording which is easier to understand: "Warming by GHG forcing has increased contrasts in precipitation amounts between wet and dry seasons and in regions over tropical lands. It has also resulted in a detectable increase in the precipitation of northern high latitudes." What do you think? EMsmile (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- The part about northern high latitudes would fit in the first sentence, which talks about geographical increase/decrease. We'd talk about 4 different regions, which is difficult to do in nice prose... Probably split the sentence into one about drying and one about getting rainier.
- I still don't understand what contrast there is "in regions over tropical lands". Between what? I'd just omit it. Femke (talk) 08:41, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
- Further e-mail exchanges with Thian has led me now to this formulation: "Warming has increased the contrast in precipitation amounts between wet and dry seasons (colloquially: "wet seasons are getting wetter, dry seasons are getting drier"). Warming has also increased the contrasts between wet and dry tropical weather regimes over tropical regions. Furthermore, it has resulted in a detectable increase in the precipitation of northern high latitudes." What do you think? EMsmile (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would leave out the sentence about weather regimes. I've read it a few times, and still not sure I understand. The other two sentences can be integrated, as long as duplication is avoided. F.i. the first sentence already talks about more precipitation in the subpolar regions. Femke (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is potentially important information and we have an author of the WG I report available on tap right now (Thian Gan). He's been trying to improve the sentence over several iterations by now so I don't think we should give up and omit it. In which sense do you find it unclear? I think it's understandable now but perhaps I only think I understand it and if you point out what is unclear exactly then I'll get your point. Overall, is this a good example of how hard it is to translate climate science information into language that is accurate and understandable for the general public? EMsmile (talk) 21:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- A problem is that most people won't know what a "weather regime" is Chidgk1 (talk) 15:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- That. Is it a spatio-temporal thing, or mostly spatial, mostly temporal. Is it something that happens on a weekly scale, or more like a monthly scale, or all of it. Meteorology was part of my masters, but I only have a vague idea what it is.. I do not think it's a necessary sentence here either. Even if we explain it well, we already detail many other types of rainfall contrasts, so that our readers will lose interest in the text. Femke (talk) 17:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes the "weather regime" part could be explained only in articles about tropical countries where it is important I guess. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am assuming that "weather regime" could be substituted with "weather pattern", right? (note there is no Wikipedia entry for "weather regime"). With regards to "we already detail many other types of rainfall contrasts, so that our readers will lose interest in the text." - are you referring to the section on "precipitation"? It's true that similar concepts are explained there but I find the references in that entire section are lacking or rather old. A reference from 2007 is cited several times. The first paragraph of "precipitation" has only one reference from 2007. I'd rather replace and improve that with the WG I report content and reference by using an improved version of the sentence that I had proposed above. I am sure there will be a way of paraphrasing it so that it's clear und understandable to everyone. Or we could also investigate other parts of the report to see what it says about your queestion of spatial or temporal. The point is, we have an expert available willing to answer our clarification questions by e-mail (Thian Gan) so why let that rare opportunity pass? (yes, it's time consuming) EMsmile (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right about the paragraph being undersourced. Please do replace it. I don't know if weather regime and pattern are the same. If you would really like to include it, feel free to contact Thian again, if you think he really wouldn't mind. Femke (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- I got a bit side-tracked but coming back to this now. I asked Thian and he replied
Weather regimes aim to describe recurrent, quasi-stationary, and persistent states of the atmospheric circulation in a specific region. Precipitation generally tends to generally exhibit both large spatial and temporal variability, instead of just one or the other.
Does this help us? I guess at some point we should work on the article effects of climate change on the water cycle. Recently, I've done a bit of work on water security which also touches on this (again, the readability of that article still needs to be improved). EMsmile (talk) 09:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- I got a bit side-tracked but coming back to this now. I asked Thian and he replied
- You're absolutely right about the paragraph being undersourced. Please do replace it. I don't know if weather regime and pattern are the same. If you would really like to include it, feel free to contact Thian again, if you think he really wouldn't mind. Femke (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am assuming that "weather regime" could be substituted with "weather pattern", right? (note there is no Wikipedia entry for "weather regime"). With regards to "we already detail many other types of rainfall contrasts, so that our readers will lose interest in the text." - are you referring to the section on "precipitation"? It's true that similar concepts are explained there but I find the references in that entire section are lacking or rather old. A reference from 2007 is cited several times. The first paragraph of "precipitation" has only one reference from 2007. I'd rather replace and improve that with the WG I report content and reference by using an improved version of the sentence that I had proposed above. I am sure there will be a way of paraphrasing it so that it's clear und understandable to everyone. Or we could also investigate other parts of the report to see what it says about your queestion of spatial or temporal. The point is, we have an expert available willing to answer our clarification questions by e-mail (Thian Gan) so why let that rare opportunity pass? (yes, it's time consuming) EMsmile (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- A problem is that most people won't know what a "weather regime" is Chidgk1 (talk) 15:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is potentially important information and we have an author of the WG I report available on tap right now (Thian Gan). He's been trying to improve the sentence over several iterations by now so I don't think we should give up and omit it. In which sense do you find it unclear? I think it's understandable now but perhaps I only think I understand it and if you point out what is unclear exactly then I'll get your point. Overall, is this a good example of how hard it is to translate climate science information into language that is accurate and understandable for the general public? EMsmile (talk) 21:54, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would leave out the sentence about weather regimes. I've read it a few times, and still not sure I understand. The other two sentences can be integrated, as long as duplication is avoided. F.i. the first sentence already talks about more precipitation in the subpolar regions. Femke (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Further e-mail exchanges with Thian has led me now to this formulation: "Warming has increased the contrast in precipitation amounts between wet and dry seasons (colloquially: "wet seasons are getting wetter, dry seasons are getting drier"). Warming has also increased the contrasts between wet and dry tropical weather regimes over tropical regions. Furthermore, it has resulted in a detectable increase in the precipitation of northern high latitudes." What do you think? EMsmile (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ IPCC AR6 WG1 Ch8 2021, p. 8-6, line 51
Section about Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)
Regarding the section about "Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)": I am a bit confused: which is the main sub-article that would feed the content of this section? Is it Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation or Shutdown of thermohaline circulation? Is there perhaps a case to be made to merge the two articles together? I have the feeling that they overlap a lot and that a merger might reduce the amount of work needed to keep them both up to date? EMsmile (talk) 12:32, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think the articles as currently organised should be merged. Both cite a lot of medium-old studies (2017 and before), while this is a subject of intense study. Another example where our limited resources are the main reason I'd support a merge to ensure old material is deleted and stays deleted. Femke (talk) 08:46, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'll add the merger tags but I am unsure which should be merged into which, and what the preferred new article title should be? I am guessing Shutdown of thermohaline circulation should be merged into Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, and is that an ideal (or good enough) title? EMsmile (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed twice, that is the ideal title :). Femke (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, merger tags added. Wondering what other search terms members of the public may use for this. Those search terms should then redirect to there. (Myself, I did know about that ocean current issue but had never heard of AMOC until very recently; just as one example of a member of the public) EMsmile (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- The media often confuses the Gulf Stream and AMOC. I've recently seen the term Gulf Stream System used a synonym for AMOC (f.i. this UCL press release). Even if the AMOC were to shut down, the Gulf Stream would remain in some form. Not sure if Gulf Stream System has a unique meaning. Femke (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Done that one - while I am in merging mood how about Talk:Atlantic_meridional_overturning_circulation#Propose_merge_Multiple_equilibria_in_the_Atlantic_meridional_overturning_circulation? Chidgk1 (talk) 12:14, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, merger tags added. Wondering what other search terms members of the public may use for this. Those search terms should then redirect to there. (Myself, I did know about that ocean current issue but had never heard of AMOC until very recently; just as one example of a member of the public) EMsmile (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed twice, that is the ideal title :). Femke (talk) 16:12, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'll add the merger tags but I am unsure which should be merged into which, and what the preferred new article title should be? I am guessing Shutdown of thermohaline circulation should be merged into Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, and is that an ideal (or good enough) title? EMsmile (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
How big should the section on "Displacement and migration" be?
I feel that the section on "Displacement and migration" is perhaps a bit too long now and that content should be moved to climate refugee (this topic doesn't exist as a stand-alone article yet, it's part of environmental migrant). Or it could be the other war around: that the bulk of information sits here and that climate refugee links to here for more information. So where should the bulk of information be, which article do we see as main and which as sub? Again, I'd like to avoid too much repetition & overlap between the two articles. EMsmile (talk) 13:09, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- As suggested above, I think 2-3 paragraphs is appropriate. I wouldn't like to see this content moved before scrutiny, as part of it is written by a now-blocked user (because of the merge, I don't know which). They had a habit of POV pushing and poor source-text integrity. Note that scientific and legal sources will avoid the term climate refugee, as climate-related migration does not work with the legal definition of refugee. Environmental migrant is definitely the place most of this information sits best. Femke (talk) 17:27, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes you are right it should be a very short summary here Chidgk1 (talk) 05:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'll try to help but 2-3 paragraphs would be longer than a very short summary... Hmmm... Also, how could I identify this: "They had a habit of POV pushing and poor source-text integrity."? Are you saying the person added refs to the end of sentences but when one opens those refs they don't actually have those statements in them? - Note also that I have just proposed on the talk page of environmental migrant to create a sub-article called climate migrant. This might make our lives easier. EMsmile (talk) 14:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- The sources were misrepresented and cherry-picked in different, sometimes subtle ways. The user exaggerated the migration caused by cliamte change. I've gone over the text once, so the worst should be out. But do be critical when rewriting. Femke (talk) 20:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- I have now created a spin-off article called climate migrant from environmental migrant. This should now make it easier to tidy up the section on "Displacement and migration". EMsmile (talk) 08:30, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- The sources were misrepresented and cherry-picked in different, sometimes subtle ways. The user exaggerated the migration caused by cliamte change. I've gone over the text once, so the worst should be out. But do be critical when rewriting. Femke (talk) 20:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'll try to help but 2-3 paragraphs would be longer than a very short summary... Hmmm... Also, how could I identify this: "They had a habit of POV pushing and poor source-text integrity."? Are you saying the person added refs to the end of sentences but when one opens those refs they don't actually have those statements in them? - Note also that I have just proposed on the talk page of environmental migrant to create a sub-article called climate migrant. This might make our lives easier. EMsmile (talk) 14:20, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes you are right it should be a very short summary here Chidgk1 (talk) 05:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Reminder: need to add content on forestry
We need to add some content on effects on forestry but I don't have the information at my fingertips. I just read in a book about climate change effects in Germany how profoundly forests in Germany (and presumably similar countries) will be affected: I am thinking here of trees dying due the drought damage coupled with certain pest insects. Changes in types of trees that can grow in the new climate etc. Will try to work on this or if someone else has info available, please add. EMsmile (talk) 11:49, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Good point. There are two angles we can take: talk about forests (under nature), or forestry (the human management of forests, in "Socio-economic impacts"). I think the first option makes the most sense, and would fit nicely under the heading "terrestrial and wetland systems". The current subsection is a bit too short (typically, one should not split a section with two short paragraphs into subsections, per MOS:OVERSECTION).
- Talking about that section heading, it's a bit jargonny. Would "ecosystems on land" be better? Femke (talk) 20:23, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, good idea about "ecosystems on land". Have changed that now. I think the forests and forestry issues belong in two places: once in the "ecosystems on land" section about natural forests, including the Amazon. And once in the economy section when it comes to farmed trees (=forestry) and tourism/recreation? EMsmile (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- We could add a short sentence to the agriculture paragraph of the economy section. I don't see how tourism is related to forestry? Not a whole lot of tourism taking place in forests? The European Commission website also groups those together. Tourism is a separate heading. Femke (talk) 08:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oh but tourism in relationship with forests is huge (do we need to distinguish between forests and forestry perhaps?). Or is it only huge in Germany? Here, many people love to visit forests for weekend recreation or holidays. Think Black Forest, Spessart for example but there are many more. I would assume it's similar for other European countries that still have nice forests (Scandinavian countries maybe?). - And I am wondering if our article on effects of climate change on agriculture ought to be broadened to "effects of climate change on agriculture and forestry". EMsmile (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- What source do you have that states that the effect of climate change on tourism in forests is important? I very much doubt it's due for this article. Tourism in countries that "overheat" during summer and winter sports are much more affected (see f.i. the EC website linked above). Femke (talk) 16:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, nothing at my finger tips (just a Germany book that I am currently reading, detailing how forests in Germany will deteriorate by 2050 but it hasn't got specific figures on tourism numbers). Will keep looking but I also put this section here on the talk page in the hope that it will spark others into action as well, or that someone else has that kind of data at their fingertips. Forestry will be affected, just like agriculture. But it might fit better into a broadened article on effects of climate change on agriculture and forestry. EMsmile (talk) 17:03, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- What source do you have that states that the effect of climate change on tourism in forests is important? I very much doubt it's due for this article. Tourism in countries that "overheat" during summer and winter sports are much more affected (see f.i. the EC website linked above). Femke (talk) 16:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oh but tourism in relationship with forests is huge (do we need to distinguish between forests and forestry perhaps?). Or is it only huge in Germany? Here, many people love to visit forests for weekend recreation or holidays. Think Black Forest, Spessart for example but there are many more. I would assume it's similar for other European countries that still have nice forests (Scandinavian countries maybe?). - And I am wondering if our article on effects of climate change on agriculture ought to be broadened to "effects of climate change on agriculture and forestry". EMsmile (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- We could add a short sentence to the agriculture paragraph of the economy section. I don't see how tourism is related to forestry? Not a whole lot of tourism taking place in forests? The European Commission website also groups those together. Tourism is a separate heading. Femke (talk) 08:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, good idea about "ecosystems on land". Have changed that now. I think the forests and forestry issues belong in two places: once in the "ecosystems on land" section about natural forests, including the Amazon. And once in the economy section when it comes to farmed trees (=forestry) and tourism/recreation? EMsmile (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2022 (UTC)