Although we may disagree, let us do so as rational friends! |
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Finding consensus in a heated environment |
Always assume it's possible there's an ambiguity in the text that makes sense one way to you and makes equally good faith sense in a completely different way to someone else. When others try to make it personal don't shoot back. Instead....
Can you respectfully repeat your opponent's viewpoint, without negating it? Often a magic bullet is to ask the other editor for permission to try to repeat back their own argument as neutrally as possible even if you don't agree with it. That instantly tells them you are listening and does 99% of what is possible (at least on your part) to cool things off. The exercise often uncovers simple misunderstandings. see the related essay writing for your opponent. If you try that and they just stay hot and bothered, there's a good chance they've got some compulsory emotional stuff or else lack good faith. In that case, stay calm, don't shoot back, and get some outside help from WP:DRN, WP:ANI, or WP:AE. Feel free to copy reuse trash change distribute. Your mileage may vary. |
11Y |
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25-50-25
- 25% of people will be mad at you (or unteachable) no matter what you do, so don't waste your time trying to change them.
- 25% of people will be thrilled with you (or self-directed learners) so don't waste your time trying to change them.
- Just focus on the 50% where you can make a difference.
DS Alerts I already know about
If you've stopped by to DS Alert me.... I already know about the following.... NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
My DS alert workflow
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hi NewsAndEventsGuy. I happen to have watchlisted a few of the user talk pages on which you've posted DS alerts and gotten some negative reactions. I wanted to share my workflow in the hopes of minimizing the backlash:
It takes a bit longer, but I find it to be worth it. I still do get pushback from people who don't like the alert language or think it mean they've been sanctioned. If I'm posting it on the page I've someone I've been in a disagreement with, I like to include some intro language like:
Folks, I was an active editor-participant brainstorming ways to defang the prior system in ... was it 2013? And offering input for creation of the new DS alert system. I religiously check the system log every time I hand one of these out, and the DS system in hot topics works the best .... for prevention.... when everyone has had a notice within the prior 12 months. As you may know, at AE there are other ways to show "awareness" of DS, but the template may be given 12 months after the prior one. If you are fielding complaints from people, then don't complain to the issuing editor UNLESS its been less than 12 months. Instead, help teach people to chill-lax by helping them understand the meaning of the no-fault FYI alert system. You might also suggest they read the principles section of the ARBCOMM case, which requires *me* to also be grown up and play nice. Send those folks my way with their annoyance and questions. If they present them as ARCOMM expects, I should be able to resolve it to a happy ending. If they don't, well, that's why we have AE. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
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I moved this to the right thread. It was originally placed under "DS review process 2021" NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- As this is a new thread, not sure who "you" is. My closed point is there is a way of templating regulars -- particularly when it comes to annual DS alerts. Mr. Ernie and some others are *******s when it comes to this. That's life. But, this problem can be reduced either by humor or just saying, sorry, your annual reminder. Indeed, humor, disliked by some percentage of editors, is a valuable lubricant, particularly on DS articles which some editors approach as if they are existential in nature. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Eds that respond in the manner you refer to may have some WP:CIR issues impeding their ability to cooperate in a collaborative endeavor, regardless of their other skills. In my view, instead of enabling this problem to hide just beneath the surface, it would best serve the longterm goal of preventing problems for these kinds of eds to get admin warnings and/or baby-blocks as a wake-up. Some will learn and improve. Those that don't will eventually find themselves being reviewed at ANI/AE etc, and the diffs of the warning and short blocks will be useful in establishing a refusal or inability to change. Humor is great, I agree. But that's only when things are going well. To me, what you suggest would make me an enabler, helping a behavioral problem hide just beneath the surface. The FYI alert is so trivial to get that worked up about is....
well you said it just fine. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2022 (UTC)(a few minutes later) actually I want to disassociate from your description as that comes close to an NPA vio and I didn't connect the dots when I endorsed your description. So instead I'll say to get that worked up about something so trivial is a WP:CIR red flag. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Eds that respond in the manner you refer to may have some WP:CIR issues impeding their ability to cooperate in a collaborative endeavor, regardless of their other skills. In my view, instead of enabling this problem to hide just beneath the surface, it would best serve the longterm goal of preventing problems for these kinds of eds to get admin warnings and/or baby-blocks as a wake-up. Some will learn and improve. Those that don't will eventually find themselves being reviewed at ANI/AE etc, and the diffs of the warning and short blocks will be useful in establishing a refusal or inability to change. Humor is great, I agree. But that's only when things are going well. To me, what you suggest would make me an enabler, helping a behavioral problem hide just beneath the surface. The FYI alert is so trivial to get that worked up about is....
DS review process 2021
Entirely by accident, I just stumbled across this when I saw it on someone else's talk page. I would have contributed in the "consultation" phase, but I was wikihibernating and didn't know about it. Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions/2021_review. In case anyone else doesn't know about it and happens to come by my talk, I thought I'd put this here and invite you to start following that process also. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:48, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Recent edits at Attempts to overturn the 2020 US presidential election
I noticed your huge blankings, but am traveling and was about to go to bed, so did nothing. I now see that Anachronist restored the content, and I share their opinion. (I am not saying that none of the blankings were justified. Some quotes could be shortened.) Such blankings without a discussion or consensus is highly unusual, and if I didn't know who you were and have great respect for your excellent work (I really mean that!), I would have thought it was vandalism. Part of what we do is to document history as it unfolds, and unless there is very good reason to do so, it's good to keep that "picture from that moment in time", so that we actually document the learning curve of events, rather than just present the final picture. We need to document how we got there.
I know that "size" is often used as an argument for deleting content, and there can be some legitimacy to that, but it's often better to split off content. We are not paper and have no space constraints other than download time. By preserving all we can, we also honor all the good faith efforts of loyal editors per WP:PRESERVE. Deleting such content is a slap in the face and saps the initiative and energy from even the most experienced and productive editors who work hard to research and build content. When they see such deletions, they get depressed and think "What's the point of apparently wasting my time here? Maybe I'll stop creating content and just fix typos." That's really sad.
This attempted coup is one of the most significant political and national security events in U.S. history, and, IMO, if Trump is elected again, that will be the end of American democracy as we know it. The next time will succeed beyond our worst fears. He will never leave power again if he can avoid it. He's happy to use democracy to gain power but totally ignores it to stay in power. He'll end freedom of the press and use the military and intelligence agencies to keep any opposition in check, thus fulfilling his dream to be like Putin, his hero. As long as he lives, he will be a serious national security threat, and the GOP's mentality is learning from him. That's scary.
We do not write summaries here. We document everything. We need to document the shit out of every twist and turn in this unfolding drama. We are writing the definitive history book, so instead of deleting content when size constraints become an issue, let's consider other options, such as legitimate forking. That way we can go into real depth with events, then fork off sections that get too large, thus leaving an overview mother article with sections based on the leads of the resulting daughter sub-articles where history nerds can find the nitty-gritty details of who said and did what, and when and why they did it.
Otherwise, carry on the good work. I thoroughly enjoy watching your skillful editing. Along with Soibangla, you are one of our best mainstream editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 09:35, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'll be glad to discuss different ideas for article improvement at article talk. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- PS Thanks for the compliment and enjoy safe travels NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Apologies
Just wanted to say please forgive my blathering. As you might suspect, we wandered into an area of interest for me. All the same, you make good points, and as I say, happy to go wherever consensus takes us. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Please don't apologize, it was much more valuable than many (most?) content discussions I have here! There's nothing more boring as an occassional so called "nontraditional" (read= old) student that to sit in a potentially awesome class with a bunch of dullards who won't ever speak or raise their hand. If we disagree then I'll learn in the process, so the only apology I'm willing to accept is if sometime you realize you had something constructive to add, even if to disagree, but didn't. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Very well said and worthy of being framed and hung on the wall. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmmm.... dartboard? Face of a faux coo-coo clock? My the ideas are endless. When my kid was in gradeschool one day I used a big 10-penny nail to hammer a walnut to the kitchen wall. I mean, where ELSE would you store your walnuts? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- LMFAO! If your kid had a strong philosophical streak, that nailed walnut might have been the trigger to a great work of philosophy. A hook to hang ideas on. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- You know how things like this become familiar and sort of disappear in our awareness? The mangled nut with the two inches of nail shank protruding captured their attention a couple years later. Shaking their head they said, "Even when I was really little I knew you were a nut, but MY GOD you have truly cracked up!!" NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:43, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- LMFAO! If your kid had a strong philosophical streak, that nailed walnut might have been the trigger to a great work of philosophy. A hook to hang ideas on. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 10:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hmmmm.... dartboard? Face of a faux coo-coo clock? My the ideas are endless. When my kid was in gradeschool one day I used a big 10-penny nail to hammer a walnut to the kitchen wall. I mean, where ELSE would you store your walnuts? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Very well said and worthy of being framed and hung on the wall. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)