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Asian Australians in politics
G'day, welcome to Wikipedia! I see you have created the page Asian Australians in politics. Congratulations on this. I must caution you against editorialising; that is, including content that makes use of opinionated language or is attempted to persuade the reader to a particular view. An example of this might be saying that Asian Australians "remain very under-represented" in politics, because one can reasonably say it depends on the way in which you measure it. By the same token, it may at times be hard to tell what is permissible and what is editorialising. The general rule is not to write an article as if it's one's own essay. See WP:EDITORIAL for more information. Best of luck! Cheers, thorpewilliam (talk) 10:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. SCN 1999 (talk) 10:26, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi thorpewilliam,
- Underrepresentation is not opinionated language as shown by countless Wikipedia articles: See Bamboo ceiling (section Underrepresentation of Asian Americans), Underrepresented group, Women in climate change (section Underrepresentation of women in science) and Brussels So White (section Underrepresentation of people of colour among EU decision makers) as well as Women in philosophy (section Reasons for underrepresentation).
- I don't understand what exactly you mean by "because one can reasonably say it depends on the way in which you measure it." there is one measurement, percentage of members in Parliament compared the percentage of the total population in Australia. This was explained in the section.
- Thanks. SCN 1999 (talk) 11:19, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- @SCN 1999 One can also, instead of comparing the total makeup of parliament to the total demographic makeup of the country, look at individual seats and their own demography. Some seats have a notably different demographic makeup in terms of ethnic origin to the national average. At the same time, if the large majority of seats have a particular ethnic majority, then it may explain why they mostly elect people from that ethnicity, since it is also primarily from those electorates (and hence ethnicities) themselves that their candidates are drawn. This is what I refer to.
- I also note that some of your sources are opinion/commentary articles. This is not necessarily an issue, though I would advise you to use others if possible, and to be careful of separating fact from opinion when you do use such sources. Of course, you must exercise your own discretion in doing so.
- Kind regards, thorpewilliam (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying but I feel like it was explained what measurement was being discussed in the section, So maybe clarifying the metric (percentage of members in Parliament compared the percentage of the total population in Australia) instead of removal? As you can see from the other Wikipedia articles I have linked this isn't a one off thing I made up. SCN 1999 (talk) 11:59, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
This article vs list article
Hi SCN 1999! Just wanted to say thanks for starting the Asian Australians in politics article - glad to see more attention being given to the historical underrepresentation of Asian Australians in politics, which I think is notable and factual. I also like how you've formatted the table in your article!
I wanted to get your thoughts on a couple of points that I had in mind when I was creating the List of Asian Australian politicians article:
- Do you think two separate articles are needed? I know there's the precedent of Asian Americans in politics and List of Asian Americans and Pacific Islands Americans in the United States Congress as separate articles, but US politics seems to be really over-saturated in terms of Wikipedia articles compared to other countries. To me it seems like our two articles are pretty much on the same topic, so I wouldn't mind working towards integrating the two somehow.
- Thoughts on criteria for inclusion as "Asian Australian"? In the list article I went very broad with this, including anyone with any known ancestry from an ethnic group in Asia, and including countries in "West Asia" like Lebanon and Turkey. Either way, I feel the article should specify some definition of Asian Australian.
- I see the table in your article is more narrowly defined, but I was curious about your reasoning for not including MPs like Bill O'Chee, Ken Wyatt, Sam Dastyari, or Fatima Payman for example.
Thanks again! Neegzistuoja (talk) 03:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- According to Australian Standard Classification of Cultural and Ethnic Groups (ASCCEG):
- NORTH AFRICAN AND MIDDLE EASTERN
- · ARAB
- o Algerian
- o Egyptian
- o Iraqi
- o Jordanian
- o Kuwaiti
- o Lebanese
- o Libyan
- o Moroccan
- o Palestinian
- o Saudi Arabian
- o Syrian
- o Tunisian
- o Yemeni
- o Bahraini
- o Emirati
- o Omani
- o Qatari
- o Arab, nec
- · JEWISH
- o Jewish
- · Peoples of the Sudan
- o Bari
- o Darfur
- o Dinka
- o Nuer
- o South Sudanese
- o Sudanese
- o Peoples of the Sudan, nec
- · Other North African and Middle Eastern
- o Berber
- o Coptic
- o Iranian
- o Kurdish
- o Turkish
- o Assyrian
- o Chaldean
- o Mandaean
- o Nubian
- o Yezidi
- o Other North African and Middle Eastern, nec
- So according to the this None of the above Ethnic Groups are Asian and instead should be classified as North African and Middle Eastern. SCN 1999 (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Noted with thanks. That rules out Iranian Sam Dastyari, but it does leave a few interesting cases (in ascending order of contentiousness):
- Fatima Payman from Afghanistan
- Bill O'Chee, born to a Chinese father and an Irish mother
- Ken Wyatt, who is an Aboriginal Australian man, but has some maternal Indian ancestry via cameleers
- Irina Dunn and Gai Brodtmann, who are both predominantly of European descent but claim some distant Chinese ancestry
- Neegzistuoja (talk) 03:53, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- As for those I could not find any references of themselves claiming to be Asian Australian.
- Fatima Payman from Afghanistan | I must have missed this one.
- Bill O'Chee, born to a Chinese father and an Irish mother | I could not find one article of him claiming to identify as Asian, I do agree that he is mixed that he should be included but couldn't find any references
- Irina Dunn and Gai Brodtmann, who are both predominantly of European descent but claim some distant Chinese ancestry | Same as Bill, I could not find any information of them claim to identify as Asian.
- As for Ken Wyatt he identifies as Indigenous Australian, so I decided to exclude him on that reasoning. SCN 1999 (talk) 04:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Fatima Payman from Afghanistan should be included I just missed that one by accident. SCN 1999 (talk) 04:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- As for those I could not find any references of themselves claiming to be Asian Australian.
- Noted with thanks. That rules out Iranian Sam Dastyari, but it does leave a few interesting cases (in ascending order of contentiousness):
User:SCN 1999 Your article in its current form is identical to the existing article, in fact the new article is worse because, as Neegzistuoja has noted, it's incomplete. I don't object to the existence of an article about the topic as opposed to a list of politicians, but you need to actually write the article first. There is no point having two identical list articles. ITBF (talk) 03:29, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- According to Australian Standard Classification of Cultural and Ethnic Groups (ASCCEG):
- NORTH AFRICAN AND MIDDLE EASTERN
- · ARAB
- o Algerian
- o Egyptian
- o Iraqi
- o Jordanian
- o Kuwaiti
- o Lebanese
- o Libyan
- o Moroccan
- o Palestinian
- o Saudi Arabian
- o Syrian
- o Tunisian
- o Yemeni
- o Bahraini
- o Emirati
- o Omani
- o Qatari
- o Arab, nec
- · JEWISH
- o Jewish
- · Peoples of the Sudan
- o Bari
- o Darfur
- o Dinka
- o Nuer
- o South Sudanese
- o Sudanese
- o Peoples of the Sudan, nec
- · Other North African and Middle Eastern
- o Berber
- o Coptic
- o Iranian
- o Kurdish
- o Turkish
- o Assyrian
- o Chaldean
- o Mandaean
- o Nubian
- o Yezidi
- o Other North African and Middle Eastern, nec
- So according to the this None of the above Ethnic Groups are Asian and instead should be classified as North African and Middle Eastern. SCN 1999 (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Instead or redirecting the article why not I don't know edit the article until it fits your metric of being distinct enough. SCN 1999 (talk) 03:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also you did not follow procedure of discussing the redirection of the article in the talk section. There needs to be a discussion before something like this is done. That is edit warring. SCN 1999 (talk) 03:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not only that but the creator of the list also wanted to have a discussion before deciding what is to be done. SCN 1999 (talk) 03:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Also the article was under peer review, to be determined whether it needed to redirected or not. SCN 1999 (talk) 04:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- You have not participated in any of the Talk pages or discussions I have opened to address this SCN 1999 (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)