June 19
Template:Transclusion orphans
cc: RandomCanadian, Izno, Pppery, ais523, Explicit
— Guarapiranga ☎ 22:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I'm uncomfortable with putting this entire list up for TfD at once. I believe that, for many or most of them, the correct action is to subst to the parent article and delete, but think that some of them will need more care. In particular, {{2021 Canadian federal election synopsis}} is in urgent need of code improvement – it's currently over 100 KiB long and (unlike most of these templates) would make the article very difficult to edit if subst'ed in that form. (I still remember when there was a 32 KB "soft limit" which editors were recommended not to exceed on any given page.) I think the correct action will be to subst-and-delete that template eventually, but it would first need to be rewritten (perhaps in terms of a Lua module to format the rows – the template is very repetitive) so that it doesn't completely dominate the rest of the article. There might well be other special cases like that, and so I'm uncomfortable making a blanket "subst and delete" recommendation in case we end up missing a special case where some other sort of cleanup is desired; in particular, although these need fixing, a single mass TfD is probably the wrong way to fix them. --ais523 23:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Why do you say {{2021 Canadian federal election synopsis}}
would make the article very difficult to edit if subst'ed in that form
, ais523? I just had a look at it, and didn't see anything so ominous or complex; it's just a long table. It's actually pretty well formatted (in comparison to other data tables here). I don't see whatfirst needs to be rewritten
, and if it's the case that it'svery repetitive
—well, it's a data table, after all—then it's the prototypical use of templates, not ofa Lua module
(which is genrally required for subroutines, not toformat rows
). I don't see how this table would completely dominate the rest of the article, given that the article already is a collection tables and maps, with very little prose, already. In any case, if it's indeed the case of splitting the table into a separate page, then it's the case of putting it into another article, not another template, and transcluding it back to Results breakdown of the 2021 Canadian federal election, as are Results of the 2022 Australian federal election (House_of_Representatives) and Results of the 2022 Australian federal election (Senate) transcluded into 2022 Brazilian general election (this, btw, sort of solves the concern some here have expressed of tables overwhelming article prose). — Guarapiranga ☎ 23:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)- The basic issue is that much of the code behind the template is repeated on every row. Excessively repetitive wikimarkup is hard to edit because a) it obscures the actual information – most of the information onscreen is irrelevant, and b) you have to repeat the repetitive information when adding new information, and the exact way in which to do that isn't always clear (e.g. it's easy to confuse parts of the table which repeat for all rows with parts of the table which repeat for most rows but not all of them). The table would be much easier to use if written in terms of a template like {{aligned table}} (but probably not that one exactly – it can't handle the full range of formatting required), rather than having all the markup written out manually. (Note that such a table-formatting template would probably be useful on more than one article, rather than being single-purpose like the templates nominated here.) --ais523 23:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- {{English Heritage listed building row}} seems more the case of what you're talking about than {{aligned table}}, ais523, but sure, that can always be improved upon, even after subst and delete. — Guarapiranga ☎ 00:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The basic issue is that much of the code behind the template is repeated on every row. Excessively repetitive wikimarkup is hard to edit because a) it obscures the actual information – most of the information onscreen is irrelevant, and b) you have to repeat the repetitive information when adding new information, and the exact way in which to do that isn't always clear (e.g. it's easy to confuse parts of the table which repeat for all rows with parts of the table which repeat for most rows but not all of them). The table would be much easier to use if written in terms of a template like {{aligned table}} (but probably not that one exactly – it can't handle the full range of formatting required), rather than having all the markup written out manually. (Note that such a table-formatting template would probably be useful on more than one article, rather than being single-purpose like the templates nominated here.) --ais523 23:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Why do you say {{2021 Canadian federal election synopsis}}
- Oppose Break it down into reasonable chunks that relate to each other naturally. This is mind-numbing. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 02:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The way these are related, as you can see in Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2022 June 13#Template:Transclusion (and indicated in this TfD's title), Tim, is that these are all (soon to be) orphans of template:transclusion. — Guarapiranga ☎ 03:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose An overly large list that combines templates related to different topics that cannot be discussed together coherently. It is necessary to break the list down into chunks that relate to each other. Nimrodbr (talk) 04:14, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Absolutely ridiculous to nominate this much in one discussion. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Import-blanktable
- Template:Import-blanktable (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:Row hover highlight (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Propose merging Template:Import-blanktable with Template:Row hover highlight.
Both templates serve the same purpose. — Guarapiranga ☎ 21:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Merge into MediaWiki:Common.css and delete both This is a much more complex situation than it looks – the developers are involved, see T287997. What seems to have happened is that there was useful functionality (with respect to table backgrounds and mouse hover) which was included into the site functionality by mistake, but because it was useful, started being used. The functionality was widely used, and then (because it was an accident rather than intentionally included in the software) ended up breaking at some point, and some people made templates to try to recreate it.
It seems uncontroversial that having highlight-on-hover behaviour is useful for at least some tables – generally speaking, tables that are being used to hold tabular data (as opposed to being used for some other purpose) benefit from it. As such, we either need to merge it into the main "wikitable" CSS class, or else split "wikitable" into two (together with WP:MOS guidelines as to when to use each version). Creating a template to do the same work via TemplateStyles and editing it onto every page indiviually is a clever short-term workaround, but a bad long-term solution to the problem – we'll end up with a range of different methods of row-highlighting tables and it'll be harder to move over to a coherent system once the software starts working again.
It's quite plausible that the situation will be fixed by changes to MediaWiki itself; however, if a short-term solution is desirable before then, it should surely be done via site CSS rather than via editing a template onto every page individually, and thus neither of the templates under discussion should really exist. (It is possible that we'll want "Wikipedia's own" data table CSS class with row highlighting, rather than using one which was incidentally part of MediaWiki, in order to be able to optimise it for usage on an encyclopedia; but in that case, we can do a one-time replacement of the CSS class name on articles using a bot, which has to be better than adding a template to every page and then removing the template again once the CSS is fixed properly.) --ais523 22:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not
Merge into MediaWiki:Common.css and delete both
. WP:TemplateStyles are sufficient to support whatever is going on with the relevant templates and should always be preferred to Common.css for the general rationale behind TemplateStyles (see prior link) as well as my project to remove Common.css styles. Common.css should be reserved exclusively for modifications to site chrome. The functionality was widely used
is an incorrect assessment. It was used by some 300 pages or so. Widely used would be much more than that. --Izno (talk) 23:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)- The functionality was used on many more than 300 pages (with many uses being indirect via templates); see Timeshifter's comment at the end of this archived VPT discussion. (There are at least 1000 uses: over 300 direct, over 100 via {{Static row numbers table}}, and over 600 via {{Kommunestyre table}}.) It probably should be used on almost every table on Wikipedia, including the ones that don't currently use it, which is a reason to add it to the global CSS rather than placing it on every page individually. --ais523 23:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
It probably should be used on almost every table on Wikipedia
I don't think this is supported solely by the fact that essentially one user has added this class/styles to these 300 some odd pages +- template links. There remains no reason to add this to all tables (allwikitable
tables I presume, for obvious reasons like {{infobox}} opposing its general use), and if you think there is, you may submit the patch to the developers that does so. There remain sufficiently many cases where it should not be employed, so I anticipate it being shot down for that reason alone (because Wikimedians are bad at using tables as tables). This is an excellent use case for TemplateStyles. --Izno (talk) 00:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The functionality was used on many more than 300 pages (with many uses being indirect via templates); see Timeshifter's comment at the end of this archived VPT discussion. (There are at least 1000 uses: over 300 direct, over 100 via {{Static row numbers table}}, and over 600 via {{Kommunestyre table}}.) It probably should be used on almost every table on Wikipedia, including the ones that don't currently use it, which is a reason to add it to the global CSS rather than placing it on every page individually. --ais523 23:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify: my second choice would be to merge the templates with each other, rather than to keep both as separate templates. --ais523 00:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not
- Merge, but with full functionality of {{import-blanktable}} per User:ais523. (old:
Do not merge templates.). Currently, the older template (Import-blanktable) written by Krinkle on August 4, 2021 does more. See discussions: Template talk:Row hover highlight/styles.css and Template talk:Import-blanktable. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)- Normally, merging templates implies that we create one template which has the functionality of both of the original templates; the basic question about the merge, therefore, is "are there cases where we'd also want a template that does less, or could all situations where we'd want to use either be able to use an improved template that has the functionality of both?". You might want to recommend a particular functionality for the merged template (e.g. that it's based primarily on {{import-blanktable}}'s code), but as it is, your bolded recommendation and your comment with your reasoning don't match each other. --ais523 23:22, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- OK. The most advanced tables, in my opinion, are the automatically updated scrolling tables discussed at Help:Table#Scrolling. They have a white background due to {{import-blanktable}}. They are listed at Category:Automatically updated COVID-19 pandemic table templates. They are used, for example, in COVID-19 pandemic by country and territory. Nearly all the other data tables in that article also use {{import-blanktable}}. I have seen those data tables there with and without the white background. They are more readable with the white background, especially the less bright one's monitor brightness setting is set at. I don't think the functionality should be tied to wikitable. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Full functionality also means that the white background works without changing already colored cells or rows. See: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox177. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Normally, merging templates implies that we create one template which has the functionality of both of the original templates; the basic question about the merge, therefore, is "are there cases where we'd also want a template that does less, or could all situations where we'd want to use either be able to use an improved template that has the functionality of both?". You might want to recommend a particular functionality for the merged template (e.g. that it's based primarily on {{import-blanktable}}'s code), but as it is, your bolded recommendation and your comment with your reasoning don't match each other. --ais523 23:22, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Clear merge of the templates. These are doing the same thing. My preference would be to support to end up with the title at Template:Row hover highlight. I would not reference
mw-datatable
as the above task would have been avoided if we were using our own classes. Secondly, I would generally support restricting row hovers towikitable
class tables (perhaps with some namerow-hover
). --Izno (talk) 23:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)I would not reference
mw-datatable
- Yeah, that's meant just as a legacy redirect. — Guarapiranga ☎ 23:58, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:NK Krka squad
- Template:NK Krka squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Empty since September 2019. No longer needed. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 21:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. GiantSnowman 21:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Sohanur Rahman Sohan
- Template:Sohanur Rahman Sohan (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Four links. Fails NENAN. Same massive list already on director's article. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose - All films of this director are notable. Some has own wikipedia article. "No need for navbox when navigation is provided on said article" this is a weird logic, there are thousands of film director templates who are similar. Their filmography is already provided in his biography article's filmography segment. But still a navigational box containing all those films exist. You must check
{{Swapan Saha}}
,{{Birsa Dasgupta}}
,{{Srijit Mukherji}}
,{{Aparna Sen}}
etc. for example. Abbasulu (talk) 02:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)- Abbasulu: Your comment here and the next one were causing Multiline table in list lint errors leading to indent leaks to the end of page. I fixed these lint errors by indirecting the Nav templates with
{{Tlx}}
. If you really want the nav templates to appear, they have to be on a line that doesn't begin with asterisk (*), pound (#) or colon (:). Feel free to re-edit your comments that way and remove this comment if you wish. —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Abbasulu: Your comment here and the next one were causing Multiline table in list lint errors leading to indent leaks to the end of page. I fixed these lint errors by indirecting the Nav templates with
- The navboxes you cite actually aid in navigation. This doesn't. All you did was copy the list of the films he directed and made a navbox version with little navigational purpose. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Kamal Ahmed
- Template:Kamal Ahmed (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Four links. Fails NENAN. All the links of articles are already listed on the director's article. No need for navbox when navigation is provided on said article. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose - All films of this director are notable. Some has own wikipedia article. "No need for navbox when navigation is provided on said article" this is a weird logic, there are thousands of film director templates who are similar. Their filmography is already provided in his biography article's filmography segment. But still a navigational box containing all those films exist. You must check
{{Swapan Saha}}
,{{Birsa Dasgupta}}
,{{Srijit Mukherji}}
,{{Aparna Sen}}
etc. for example. Abbasulu (talk) 02:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- The navboxes you cite actually aid in navigation. This doesn't. All you did was copy the list of the films he directed and made a navbox version with little navigational purpose. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 22:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Akhtaruzzaman
- Template:Akhtaruzzaman (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Two links. Fails navigation. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Shameem Akhtar
- Template:Shameem Akhtar (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
One link. No navigation. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:TMTC bullet
- Template:TMTC bullet (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Unused other than in sandboxes. Replaced with {{ric|TriMet|color}}
. Gonnym (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:NK Krško squad
- Template:NK Krško squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Unused squad navbox for a second-level football team. This navbox has been empty since 2019. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Template:NK Krka squad should also be deleted for the same reason. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. GiantSnowman 21:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. GiantSnowman 21:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Infobox themed area
- Template:Infobox themed area (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:Infobox amusement park (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Propose merging Template:Infobox themed area with Template:Infobox amusement park.
{{Infobox themed area}} is simply a wrapper of {{Infobox amusement park}} that does not add any information. Perhaps a redirect would be a better suit. –Aidan721 (talk) 13:02, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: See previous TFD from 2019, closed as "no consensus". – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- It appears that by looking at the edit history {{Infobox themed area}} was a redirect after that TFD until January 18, 2022. Perhaps another discussion arose within Wikipedia:WikiProject Amusement Parks? –Aidan721 (talk) 00:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:STL color
- Template:STL color (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:STL lines (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:STL stations (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:STL style (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/A (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/B (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/Bx (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/C (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/E (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/F (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL left/H (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/A (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/B (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/Bx (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/C (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/E (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/F (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
- Template:S-line/STL right/H (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Unused (other than 1 old sandbox) and superseded by Module:Adjacent stations/Copenhagen S-train. Gonnym (talk) 08:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per nomination. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 01:38, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:School
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).
The result of the discussion was wrong venue. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 16:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Template:School (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
No transclusion. Redirect to {{Infobox school}}. Unclear template name so better off deleted. –Aidan721 (talk) 02:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Aidan721, redirects are discussed at WP:RFD not here per these instructions. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 16:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).
Template:Moon cabinet infobox
- Template:Moon cabinet infobox (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete)
Single-use template used on Moon Jae-In's article. But instead of substitution on there, it should be outright deleted as the information on here is presented in list format as part of the article space of Cabinet of Moon Jae-in. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 00:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)