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Page move user right revoked after good-faith RM close
Vpab15's page move rights are restored by Galobtter. Vpab15 is advised to be more careful with their closes, and to, whenever possible, explain how they reached their conclusion in their closing statement. (non-admin closure) Isabelle 🏳🌈 16:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC) Clarification: While some editors agreed with the initial removal of the advanced permission, there was a growing consensus during the discussion that its removal was unjustified and shouldn't have happened, since there was no clear evidence of a pattern of bad closures and disagreement among editors over whether the close that led to the removal was even bad to begin with. Isabelle 🏳🌈 23:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Admin @El C: revoked my page move user right after my close of an RM at Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation (link to the RM see also User_talk:Vpab15#Page_move_user_right_revoked). I thought there was a consensus that "Russian" should be removed from the title so I chose one of the many options that corrected that. But even if the close was really bad (which I don't think it was), removing the user right for one mistake seems like a huge overreaction and totally disproportionate. To be clear, the revocation was done without any kind of discussion with me about the close. Honestly, if any mistake when editing will be harshly punished, I don't think I want to bother contributing. To sum up, I'd like to have my user right reinstated and I think admins shouldn't punish other editors for good faith edits without giving them a chance to correct or explain themselves. Vpab15 (talk) 21:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It wasn't a punishment, it was to prevent future disruption (AEL diff). And I'm also not sure it's just one mistake, as they claim, seeing as pretty much the only discussion threads displayed on Vpab15's talk page right now are about contesting their closures. This user did not make a substantive effort to show that they understand the reasons for why it was a bad close and provide assurances against repeating it (here). They don't seem to understand what a WP:SUPERVOTE is, still. Which displays a fundamental misunderstanding on their part, one which I continue to argue needs to be sufficiently addressed if they are to be given back this use right (which used to be part of the admin toolkit, lest we forget). El_C 21:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I have just checked WP:ACDS#Awareness. I wasn't aware of the discretionary sanctions. Can I be sanctioned in that case? Vpab15 (talk) 22:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I realize this might be confusing, but I didn't invoke WP:ACDS for that sanction, but rather for the protection actions (diff). I just made a note of it in the log because it was an integral part of related events. Basically, this was a WP:CIR revocation. I had no idea whether your editing at WP:ARBEE/WP:APL is problematic (I still don't). Did the fact that it was a contested ARBEE/APL page (and currently at AfD) exacerbate the problem? Sure, but it wasn't about the topic area, specifically. And again, you didn't inquire about any of that till now. El_C 22:22, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I see. Any misunderstanding is my fault because I didn't inquire. On the other hand you can revoke someone's user right without giving them a proper explanation. Very reasonable. Vpab15 (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- The explanation was provided: WP:BADNAC WP:SUPERVOTE close/move, the basis of which I still don't know if you understand, even now. El_C 22:41, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, I still don't understand it. Neither WP:BADNAC nor WP:SUPERVOTE mention anything about revoking someone's user rights. WP:SUPERVOTE explicitly says
If you believe that a closure reflects the closer's own opinion instead of consensus, civilly ask the closer to revert their closure and !vote by their preferences
. Vpab15 (talk) 23:09, 30 April 2022 (UTC)- Anyway, if any admin thinks you should have your page mover user right restored, well, I think it'd be a mistake, but I won't stand in the way. Needless to say, I'm concerned about non-page mover -related closes if this is the approach and your threshold of understanding of WP:CLOSE overall. El_C 23:20, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Supervoting seems like it would be covered by Wikipedia:Page mover#Criteria for revocation #1. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Criterion #1 mentions a pattern of controversial moves. The revocation was done in response to a single move, so I don't think it applies. Vpab15 (talk) 23:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Right, but then I saw your talk page where prior to me posting, displayed 2 of 3 threads that contested your closes/moves. And you still haven't demonstrated that you understand the problem with the move/close I overturned. You've basically just been arguing procedure about the revocation, but you've said nothing about why it was problematic, what you'd do differently next time. It's a wrongheaded approach which, I'm sorry to say, does not inspire confidence. El_C 23:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I am arguing that the procedure to revoke the user right hasn't been followed. If so, I don't understand why it is not restored. Aren't we supposed to follow the procedures that are in place? Regarding the other contested closes in my talk page, I am happy to provide more info if needed. One of them was taken to a move review that was endorsed, so hardy a smoking gun. In any case, if there is a pattern of bad closes (which I strongly reject), the investigation into them should have been done before the revocation, not after. Vpab15 (talk) 12:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
but then I saw your talk page where prior to me posting, displayed 2 of 3 threads that contested your closes/moves
on the other hand, only one of those (George I) was actually taken to MRV, and in that case Vpab's closure was endorsed by the community. Colin M (talk) 18:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Right, but then I saw your talk page where prior to me posting, displayed 2 of 3 threads that contested your closes/moves. And you still haven't demonstrated that you understand the problem with the move/close I overturned. You've basically just been arguing procedure about the revocation, but you've said nothing about why it was problematic, what you'd do differently next time. It's a wrongheaded approach which, I'm sorry to say, does not inspire confidence. El_C 23:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Criterion #1 mentions a pattern of controversial moves. The revocation was done in response to a single move, so I don't think it applies. Vpab15 (talk) 23:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Vpab15 The criteria for revoking page mover rights are laid out in the appropriate section of WP:Page mover, WP:Page mover#Criteria for revocation. This right generally does not require any process or notice prior to revocation. 192.76.8.70 (talk) 23:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, I still don't understand it. Neither WP:BADNAC nor WP:SUPERVOTE mention anything about revoking someone's user rights. WP:SUPERVOTE explicitly says
- I think El_C's log entry is really confusing; it mentions four separate actions 1) overturning close, 2) revoking page mover privileges, 3) ECP, and 4) move protect. They added that to Arbitration enforcement log without qualifying which actions were normal admin actions and which were AE actions. Any editor could reasonably assume that the log message was treating all actions as discretionary sanctions. If it is true that the first two actions were normal admin actions, they should amend DSLOG as soon as possible. Politrukki (talk) 13:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- The explanation was provided: WP:BADNAC WP:SUPERVOTE close/move, the basis of which I still don't know if you understand, even now. El_C 22:41, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I see. Any misunderstanding is my fault because I didn't inquire. On the other hand you can revoke someone's user right without giving them a proper explanation. Very reasonable. Vpab15 (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I realize this might be confusing, but I didn't invoke WP:ACDS for that sanction, but rather for the protection actions (diff). I just made a note of it in the log because it was an integral part of related events. Basically, this was a WP:CIR revocation. I had no idea whether your editing at WP:ARBEE/WP:APL is problematic (I still don't). Did the fact that it was a contested ARBEE/APL page (and currently at AfD) exacerbate the problem? Sure, but it wasn't about the topic area, specifically. And again, you didn't inquire about any of that till now. El_C 22:22, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- I have just checked WP:ACDS#Awareness. I wasn't aware of the discretionary sanctions. Can I be sanctioned in that case? Vpab15 (talk) 22:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- This won't be a popular thing to say, but El C's made more than one mistake and no one removed any of his perms. Removing page mover over one bad close (or even three bad closes) seems overly harsh, and punitive, since removing page mover won't prevent future bad closes (you don't need the perm to close an RM). If there were to be a sanction, a TBAN from closing RMs would make more sense, and there are useful things one can do with page mover other than closing RMs. But I think we should respond to bad closes with education/advice rather than removing perms or other sanctions, at least as a first step. Levivich 18:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- (Not unpopular --> (in response to Levivich’s comment). I believe regular editors are cautious and detour criticizing an editor with more powers over them. Anyway, here is my humble opinion. So prompt removal of rights was a very bad administrative decision even if the action of the closer was a mistake (was it?) (sorry El C, people make errors in their judgements, yes, you too.) - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- concur. Buffs (talk) 16:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- El C, I'm not sure this was the best way to handle this. If you think the close was bad, I think it would have been better to go through the established WP:MRV process. If you think there's a systematic problem of Vpab not having the competence to close RM discussions, maybe you could open a discussion to see if there would be community consensus for a topic-ban against them performing RM closures? Removing their page mover right doesn't actually prevent them from continuing to do RM non-admin closes - they can always close a discussion and then list the move at WP:RMT. If this were a truly clueless editor jumping in to RM closure and making an obvious mess of it, then unilaterally overturning their close would be reasonable, but this was a good faith closure by an editor who has been closing RMs for a couple years. (And I say this as an editor who has challenged Vpab's closures in the past, even taking one to MRV.) Colin M (talk) 18:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm dealing with a medical emergency, so for expediency, I'll just quote myself:
Anyway, if any admin thinks you should have your page mover user right restored, well, I think it'd be a mistake, but I won't stand in the way. Needless to say, I'm concerned about non-page mover -related closes if this is the approach and your threshold of understanding of WP:CLOSE overall.
Thanks. El_C 20:31, 2 May 2022 (UTC)- Sorry to hear that, take care - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- +1 Politrukki (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear that, take care - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Messy situation that could have been handled better perhaps, but ultimately it’s a terrible close that does not even begin to explain its conclusion and instead appears to rely on an articulated personal view that the move is “fixing a problem”. Per WP:RMNAC, an NAC should normally only be done in cases of a clear consensus which not even the closer claimed existed here. Even if such closes were allowed, there would still need to be a very thorough written articulation of how the consensus was interpreted, not just a simple declaration that the move is beneficial. I sympathize with the user and I’m willing to AGF, but competence issues with assessing consensus in the RM area is quite simply usually going to be disqualifying for what is one of the most restrictive user rights on the project. I would not regrant here personally. ~Swarm~ {sting} 09:52, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- You've also made more than one mistake and no one pulled your PERMs. Arguing that the close was bad is straw manning: no one is arguing that the close was good. Did you want to address whether (1) this is a pattern or one time thing, or (2) why would we remove PM for a bad close, or (3) why we would remove PM for one bad close? Anybody here want to make an argument for why one bad close should result in PM revocation? Like how does that prevent bad closes in the future? Or that it wasn't just one bad close? Should an admin who makes a single bad AFD close be desysoped? Should we remove rollbacker for a single misuse of rollback? If the answer is no, then... I'm openly annoyed that the question is even needing to be asked here. Levivich 14:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- One argument would be that all it takes is convincing an admin that you'll use the right responsibly in the future to regain it. An admin would have to re-run for RFA, which is clearly a whole thing. In this situation, likely all it would take is an honest "I understand how that close and move was a mistake. In the future I will be much more careful." ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- When we make one mistake with a PERM, we need to convince an admin that we won't make a second mistake, in order to regain the PERM? Levivich 14:51, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Depends on the severity of the mistake, and the consensus around it. I'm just saying that comparing getting page mover or rollbacker pulled to being desysopped is apples to bananas. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:55, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I went into this totally agreeing with you, I nothing short of shocked and outraged that an admin would revoke a perm over a disputed close. I was actually upset, and I shouldn’t have been. Looking into it, I think it’s actually an uncontentious revoke and I 100% agree with it. Discretionarily revoking a perm is a very aggressive, unpleasant action, and no admin does it lightly, but in this case, I genuinely don’t see how there was any alternative. When it comes to subjective close challenges, I’m usually pretty defensive of the closer’s discretion. But here the close wasn’t some sort of mistake, it’s either incompetence or willful misconduct. Framing this in the most favorable light, a page mover is demonstrating that they are not familiar with important policies and procedures in the area of page moving. This is quite simply incompatible with possessing the PM right. ~Swarm~ {sting} 21:10, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- The reasons for revocation of page mover right are clearly stated at WP:PMRR and it is obvious that a single good-faith mistake is not enough reason. I must also say that I find the lack of civility by two admins quite shocking. Things could have been said much more respectfully. It was really not necessary to repeatedly call me incompetent. Vpab15 (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Per PMRR, the very first sentence, the permission can be revoked for “misconduct”, also I would argue that the issue lies within the purview of #4 anyways; a formal closure performed in your capacity as a page mover, so-designated in the closure statement itself, identifying as a highly experienced and thoroughly-vetted expert in this field. I would further argue that you have demonstrated that you do not satisfy the granting guidelines to begin with and thus a revocation is a procedural matter. I would further argue that none of that matters, per WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAU, and WP:IAR, we operate based on common sense above all and this is supported by my common sense. I’m sorry if you feel offended, that is sincerely not my intent, but you asked for uninvolved users to investigate and this is my conclusion as an uninvolved admin. IMO you’re not in a position to ask to be coddled, you are the one who betrayed the trust an admin placed in you. ~Swarm~ {sting} 23:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Swarm
- My opinion (if that matters):
- 1 - point out the incorrect close and illustrate the issue
- 2 - issue a warning
- If the user argues (but is proven wrong) or is on the second serious (proven) error, then remove the rights.
- Is that too much to ask? GizzyCatBella🍁 00:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- PMRR #4 says one reason for revocation is:
The editor used the permission to gain the upper hand in disputes
. It says nothing about competence. Can a single page move be considered participating in a dispute, let alone trying to gain the upper hand? I think the accusation is unsubstantiated and violates AGF. I also think it is very problematic we are still discussing the reason for the revocation. It should have been made clear from the beginning. Vpab15 (talk) 08:17, 5 May 2022 (UTC)- This would be done under criteria 1, failure to determine consensus, or the catch all "misconduct" clause, criteria 4 is unrelated to the issues with your moves. Looking through a few of your other closures there does seem to be a repeating problem with failing to establish consensus properly. This RM [1] in another discretionary sanctions area (Israel-Palestine) is very unsatisfactory IMO, it should have been closed no-consensus. I don't see how that could have been closed as "moving to a more neutral name" when multiple participants expressed concerns that the proposed name was just swapping one POV for another. This closure of a RM here (overturned at move review) [2] is also extremely problematic. I don't see how that discussion could have been read as any kind of consensus at all let alone a "Clear consensus". From just a few days ago we have this closure [3]. Gender and sexuality is another controversial topic area under discretionary sanctions. When closing a discussion where two options are being debated along with the relative merits of COMMONNAME vs up to date terminology I would expect to see a more detailed rationale than "x has more support". 163.1.15.238 (talk) 13:51, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOTBUREAU. Procedural objections will never win when an action is in the best interest of the project. ~Swarm~ {sting} 22:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Multiple users have questioned whether this is in the best interest of the project, so I don't think this appeal to WP:COMMONSENSE/WP:NOTBUREAU holds up. Last month the RM backlog reached an all-time high. I don't think we should be pushing willing editors away from closing RMs unless a) There's clear consensus that their closes are doing more harm than good (considered as a whole - not just focusing on one bad close). b) Other less harsh options have been considered (e.g. mentoring, guiding the editor toward less controversial closes). Colin M (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good news then, the user is not banned from RMs and may continue to participate there. I am not arguing in support of a TBAN from RM, I am simply explaining why I would not regrant PM at this time. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- You're using the word "participate" but we're talking about closes. Vpab can not only continue to participate, they can continue to close RMs. That's why removing the page mover right doesn't prevent bad RM closes. Levivich 14:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Revoking PM does not even do anything to address the user’s participation in RM. It is a bare minimum intervention, and thus I view it as quite lenient, particularly with the caveat that any admin who sees fit can reinstate it without any further discussion. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:46, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- You're using the word "participate" but we're talking about closes. Vpab can not only continue to participate, they can continue to close RMs. That's why removing the page mover right doesn't prevent bad RM closes. Levivich 14:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good news then, the user is not banned from RMs and may continue to participate there. I am not arguing in support of a TBAN from RM, I am simply explaining why I would not regrant PM at this time. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Multiple users have questioned whether this is in the best interest of the project, so I don't think this appeal to WP:COMMONSENSE/WP:NOTBUREAU holds up. Last month the RM backlog reached an all-time high. I don't think we should be pushing willing editors away from closing RMs unless a) There's clear consensus that their closes are doing more harm than good (considered as a whole - not just focusing on one bad close). b) Other less harsh options have been considered (e.g. mentoring, guiding the editor toward less controversial closes). Colin M (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Per PMRR, the very first sentence, the permission can be revoked for “misconduct”, also I would argue that the issue lies within the purview of #4 anyways; a formal closure performed in your capacity as a page mover, so-designated in the closure statement itself, identifying as a highly experienced and thoroughly-vetted expert in this field. I would further argue that you have demonstrated that you do not satisfy the granting guidelines to begin with and thus a revocation is a procedural matter. I would further argue that none of that matters, per WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOTBUREAU, and WP:IAR, we operate based on common sense above all and this is supported by my common sense. I’m sorry if you feel offended, that is sincerely not my intent, but you asked for uninvolved users to investigate and this is my conclusion as an uninvolved admin. IMO you’re not in a position to ask to be coddled, you are the one who betrayed the trust an admin placed in you. ~Swarm~ {sting} 23:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- The reasons for revocation of page mover right are clearly stated at WP:PMRR and it is obvious that a single good-faith mistake is not enough reason. I must also say that I find the lack of civility by two admins quite shocking. Things could have been said much more respectfully. It was really not necessary to repeatedly call me incompetent. Vpab15 (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- When we make one mistake with a PERM, we need to convince an admin that we won't make a second mistake, in order to regain the PERM? Levivich 14:51, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- One argument would be that all it takes is convincing an admin that you'll use the right responsibly in the future to regain it. An admin would have to re-run for RFA, which is clearly a whole thing. In this situation, likely all it would take is an honest "I understand how that close and move was a mistake. In the future I will be much more careful." ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- You've also made more than one mistake and no one pulled your PERMs. Arguing that the close was bad is straw manning: no one is arguing that the close was good. Did you want to address whether (1) this is a pattern or one time thing, or (2) why would we remove PM for a bad close, or (3) why we would remove PM for one bad close? Anybody here want to make an argument for why one bad close should result in PM revocation? Like how does that prevent bad closes in the future? Or that it wasn't just one bad close? Should an admin who makes a single bad AFD close be desysoped? Should we remove rollbacker for a single misuse of rollback? If the answer is no, then... I'm openly annoyed that the question is even needing to be asked here. Levivich 14:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Swarm has explained what was wrong with Vpab15's close. But I think removing page mover right was overreaction that makes very little sense in the context. If Vpabl15 would have been asked to temporarily stop closing (controversial) RM's, would they have said no? I don't think so. There was no immediate threat that could not have been resolved with discussion. As Levivich and Colin M argued, if Vpab15's close was so utterly incompetent that page move right had to immediately revoked, why should we allow Vpab15 to continue closing move discussions? I have not seen evidence for topic-banning from move discussions.El_C admonishes Vpab15 for omitting in-depth closing summary. I do think that the RM Vpab15 was sanctioned for should have been closed as "no consensus". However, El_C's summary does not specifically explain how that result was arrived, i.e. they are guilty of what they are accusing Vpab15 of.El_C should refrain from using CIR as a blunt instrument and remember what CIR does not mean. Even if Vpab15's rights were not to be restored now, we should provide them a path to regain the PM right, unless we think they are a lost cause, which is not the case here. Politrukki (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, in addition to the removal of the page mover right, and the logging of it as an AE action, one of the stranger aspects of this is El C's closing statement which admonishes Vpab with
Contested moves usually should have fairly in-depth closing summaries
, but then goes on to close the RM with this as the closing summary:Either way, no consensus and back to the status quo ante, for now.
, and that's it, nothing else. In addition, C gives a substantive opinion on the title (I don't have an intimate familiarity with the historiography, but probably Soviet should supplant Russian if the current title is kept (?). Or maybe there's a better a title, I dunno.
), which is a !vote. The close also references the essay WP:BADNAC, but doesn't mention the one applicable to RMs, which is WP:RMNAC. C full-move-protected the page, which is also an overreaction after one bad move. Finally, it ends with a reference to 500/30, which doesn't apply to this article. There are more mistakes in El C's actions than in Vpab's actions here. Despite numerous mistakes, nobody is suggesting removing any perms from El C. Levivich 14:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)- With regards to your comment about 500/30, discretionary sanctions are Byzantine. Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation might be considered under Antisemitism in Poland topic. The talk page has Antisemitism in Poland warning template because it was added by GizzyCatBella on 27 April, right before Vpab15's close. Standard discretionary sanctions are not authorised for Antisemitism in Poland specifically, but it's a subtopic that falls under EE (standard DS). EE does not have 500/30 remedy, but Antisemitism in Poland does, see WP:APL50030.I don't think we have discretionary sanctions specifically for Byzantine Empire as of yet, but it might or might not fall under EE. Politrukki (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing how a discussion about the title of the article "Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation" could possibly be considered part of the topic area "Antisemitism in Poland", even if the article mentions antisemitism in Poland. (It definitely falls under "Eastern Europe", but as you say, EE doesn't have a 500/30 restriction.) Levivich 16:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Page protection is authorized under standard discretionary sanctions. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, but we're talking here about 500/30, not page protection. Levivich 01:48, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) with headquarters in Cracow operated on the territories of the occupied Second Polish Republic, particularly in Volhynia and Galicia. The organization was also implicated in pogroms, the Holocaust and ethnic cleansing on occupied Polish territories. Stepan Bandera, the leader, (an antisemite, fascist and Nazi collaborator - see article) was not only born in Poland (Russian partition) but also lived there all his life (before moving to Munich after the war). He proclaimed Act of restoration of the Ukrainian state in Lviv, General Government. This is all WW2 history of Poland, that’s why 500/30 apply. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's not true. The Second Polish Republic did not exist when Ukraine Insurgent Army was created in 1942. Also, in 1941, Nazis put Stepan Bandera in a Nazi concentration camp. So no, Bandera was not UPA leader. The UPA was a militia who fought against Russian/Soviet occupation from 1942-1960. WWII was over in 1945, not 1960. So the 500/30 does not apply. It was erroneously added, unilaterally (with no discussion), and it should be removed BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: I agree with you, the 500/30 does not apply to "Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian Occupation." I feel it was erroneously applied to that article & it should be removed. Best regards, BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) with headquarters in Cracow operated on the territories of the occupied Second Polish Republic, particularly in Volhynia and Galicia. The organization was also implicated in pogroms, the Holocaust and ethnic cleansing on occupied Polish territories. Stepan Bandera, the leader, (an antisemite, fascist and Nazi collaborator - see article) was not only born in Poland (Russian partition) but also lived there all his life (before moving to Munich after the war). He proclaimed Act of restoration of the Ukrainian state in Lviv, General Government. This is all WW2 history of Poland, that’s why 500/30 apply. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, but we're talking here about 500/30, not page protection. Levivich 01:48, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Page protection is authorized under standard discretionary sanctions. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing how a discussion about the title of the article "Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation" could possibly be considered part of the topic area "Antisemitism in Poland", even if the article mentions antisemitism in Poland. (It definitely falls under "Eastern Europe", but as you say, EE doesn't have a 500/30 restriction.) Levivich 16:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- With regards to your comment about 500/30, discretionary sanctions are Byzantine. Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation might be considered under Antisemitism in Poland topic. The talk page has Antisemitism in Poland warning template because it was added by GizzyCatBella on 27 April, right before Vpab15's close. Standard discretionary sanctions are not authorised for Antisemitism in Poland specifically, but it's a subtopic that falls under EE (standard DS). EE does not have 500/30 remedy, but Antisemitism in Poland does, see WP:APL50030.I don't think we have discretionary sanctions specifically for Byzantine Empire as of yet, but it might or might not fall under EE. Politrukki (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree, in addition to the removal of the page mover right, and the logging of it as an AE action, one of the stranger aspects of this is El C's closing statement which admonishes Vpab with
- Good faith is not particularly relevant. This is about an action done to prevent a non-admin from making further controversial page moves. As such, Vpab15 should first acknowledge the error, as nobody here has asserted that the contested page move was correct. Second, Vpab15 should explain how their approach will improve. Third, they should politely ask for their permission to be restored. It may be best to let the dust settle and think about this for a while before going through these steps. The current discussion is unlikely to convince an uninvolved admin to restore Vpab15's permissions. Jehochman Talk 13:00, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
This is about an action done to prevent a non-admin from making further controversial page moves.
An action that should not be done after one bad page move. One bad page move out of how many bad page moves? What's the error rate? And why the hell would this editor ask for the permission to be restored, or ever want to help us with moves or anything else, after being treated like this? Man you old timer admins are really myopic sometimes. Levivich 13:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)- I am not an admin.
If somebody does something troublesome, it's just fine to stop them from repeating the error. This is the definition of "preventative." We are not passing judgement on the editor or their whole history. We are saying, "This was a mistake, please stop and address it before you continue." Had the editor acknowledged the error (or even acknowledged that they might have made an error), I don't think the permission would have been revoked. Jehochman Talk 15:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- If what you describe actually happened, nobody would be complaining about it. What actually happened is that El C never talked to the user before revoking their perms. See User talk:Vpab15#Page move user right revoked. There was no opportunity to acknowledge the error prior to the permission being revoked. In fact, the OP says this:
To be clear, the revocation was done without any kind of discussion with me about the close.
So what you're saying just isn't factually accurate. - Note also that this user is not in any prevented from closing RMs. So this doesn't in any way address or prevent bad RM closes, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread. That's why people are saying it was a bad call: there was no prior communication, no warning given, and the action taken is not preventative and doesn't address the actual problem. The problem isn't a mis-use of page mover perms, it's a bad closing statement. Levivich 15:22, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Folks, what I witnessed around here is that regular editors (in general) rather avoid voicing negative comments about administrators. Those who dare are very few. I don't think I have to explain to you why. So you folks, who are in a position of power, please appreciate this constructive criticism, particularly Levivich's, reflect on it and restore the rights revoked due to a poor administrative decision. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:19, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- If what you describe actually happened, nobody would be complaining about it. What actually happened is that El C never talked to the user before revoking their perms. See User talk:Vpab15#Page move user right revoked. There was no opportunity to acknowledge the error prior to the permission being revoked. In fact, the OP says this:
- I am not an admin.
- As I've said before, I appreciate El C's committed admin work in contentious topic areas, but I think this was a series of poor administrative decisions. Some comments: I hope El C (or another admin) restores the page mover user right to Vpab15. Aside from the substantive issues, I'm concerned of the effect sanctioning mistakes has on editor retention. We're a volunteer community that needs good editors, including RM closers where we often have backlogs. Sanctions are not conducive to editor retention, and should be a last resort to prevent disruption to the project where other means fail or are reasonably likely to fail. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Mistakes are acceptable for any user right holder. Unilateral revocation is only really acceptable for misuse, gross incompetence, or for inactivity/procedural reasons. For PMR, WP:PMRR outlines 7 criteria for unilateral admin removal without notice or process, and none are met here.
- Page mover, as with all other non-admin user rights, is a technical user right. Closing discussions is not a technical task, thus is not within the scope of WP:Page mover, and the editor remains able to close any RM discussion which means the preventative purpose of the revocation is unclear.
- Except in limited circumstances, I don't feel it's appropriate to unilaterally overturn closes. As an ACDS action, I think the admin should be able to justify why the unilateral overturning of a close provides a stabilising impact in a contentious topic area, and why it outweighs any concerns of due process (WP:CLOSECHALLENGE/WP:MRV) not being followed. There are a lot of good reasons we have these processes. I cannot see any reasons for avoiding process, or any reason why this move was destabilising in the topic area.
- I don't find the close to be a gross error. I think the discussion does show consensus for the nominator's concern regarding the presence of "Russian" in the title, though not a consensus for the proposed title, with disagreement on a suitable alternative title. I would not personally have moved and instead suggested future discussion, but I've seen cases where a move is allowed to a 'better title' with future moves suggested to stabilise on the ideal title. Overall, I think the close is sufficiently within reason to deserve a MRV discussion.
- Re point 2: You are technically right, but in practice lack of Page Mover right precludes you from closing most RMs. A good deal of redirects are nowadays salted for one reason or another (WP:Redirect categorization being the main culprit) so, if you cannot execute pageswap, you must ask someone else to do it for you, which becomes nuisance for everyone soon enough.
Substantially, I agree it was a bad removal by El C, and unfortunately, I begin to see a pattern of rushed and overaggressive actions by him, where a simple quiet talk or would do the job better and with much less drama. No such user (talk) 07:14, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that this was a pretty bad removal and that the right should be restored. Was it a bad closure? Sure, but this is simply not a justified response. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:56, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since there are two open threads at WPO that highlight this matter right now, meTa it's better that I provide an updated summary. I recognize that many participants in this thread feel the revocation was a mistake. But Swarm, a PERM regular with 700 actions to my 30, had said above that though originally he was
nothing short of shocked and outraged that an admin would revoke a perm over a disputed close
, once he looked beyond its surface, he100% agree[d] with it
. He even said that hegenuinely [didn't] see how there was any alternative
. As well, above, IP editor 163.1.15.238 has provided other troubling examples.
- In my view, a bad close and subsequent move of a contested EE/APL page while it's being challenged at AfD (which is how I found out about this, GCB ping'd me to the AfD at which point I noticed its title didn't match the article) is quite a serious lapse. But, again, any admin is free to reverse my revocation. Re-applying at WP:PERM is also an option, if that doesn't happen. The venue doesn't matter. All it would take is for one admin to feel confident Vpab15 should have the PM right back (presumably, with Vpab15 providing some substance, but maybe not).
- I'm certainly not gonna hold any ill will toward any admin who might re-grant it (truly), but I'm just not comfortable reversing myself right now, even with all the pressure. Referring to 163.1.15.238's evidence again, I'm concerned for bad closes/moves going unchallenged due to inertia. That said, multiple people above said that I should slow down, so upon reflation (no pressure!), I'm trying to take that on-board. El_C 20:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- Countless times on this very page, users are told that when a number of experienced editors are telling them that they are making a mistake then they should correct that mistake, regardless of what they may "know" is right. I don't think anyone has told you to "slow down", I think you've been, quite directly, asked to correct your mistake. Primergrey (talk) 02:45, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll restore the page mover rights. One mistake in closing a discussion is not enough to unilaterally revoke per WP:PMRR, and there's enough agreement above that this wasn't a good revocation.
- I'll also go out on a limb and say that I don't think the close by Vpab15 is actually bad. It's a very poorly argued discussion overall, but a couple of the opposition !votes don't make any sense and most of the "oppose" !votes seem to be about whether the article is about actions against Poland too, which is kind of irrelevant to the Russian vs Soviet question that the requested move is mostly about. Honestly, I could see myself very well closing that discussion in a similar way (but maybe better explained), since the people who actually argued Russian vs Soviet mostly agreed on Soviet. But the discussion in unclear enough that NC is also valid.
- I definitely don't think El C should've unilaterally overturned the discussion, either. There's no policy that NACs can be unilaterally overturned in general. Galobtter (pingó mió) 03:53, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll quickly add that the close definitely should've been better explained, but the outcome itself isn't bad. Galobtter (pingó mió) 03:59, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- IMO It’s been established that the user doesn’t satisfy the granting guidelines. None of my arguments that the right should not be reinstated have been refuted, and yet you’re arbitrarily regranting extremely powerful tools to a user who has demonstrated problematic conduct in the area of specialization. Over what, a procedural technicality that the criteria for revocation were not satisfied verbatim? Galobtter, I feel you betray the best interests of the community here. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Nowhere in Wikipedia do we we do anything without giving a user a warning or a chance to improve their behavior. Instantly revoking a user right for a good faith, not unreasonable (as I explained) close is not how Wikipedia should work. That's what I mean by WP:PMRR not being met - I don't care that much about the technicalities but thought I'd refer to the relevant guideline, since it does bolster the case for re-granting.
- As far as I can tell, your main argument is about violating WP:RMNAC, but that part of WP:RMNAC doesn't actually reflect community practice anymore (as ProcrastinatingReader notes). Even 4 years ago when I was an active NAC closing WP:RMs I made many close-call NACs and no one had any problem as I long as I explained myself properly, so I don't see how we can fault Vpab15 for making the NAC close. Your other argument is about the close being bad, which as I explained above, I don't quite agree with even if I do think it wasn't the best explained.
- I think you also overstate the powers of page mover, and Vpab15 has not actually abused any of the page mover technical powers. So what harm do you think Vpab15 would do with the page mover rights now that they have them? Make controversial closes? As many people have pointed out, that's something they can do regardless of having the right. They were never told to stop making controversial closes, which would be the first step if that's the issue.
- I also don't see how you can say I betray the best interests of the community if most of the community that has expressed an opinion above think the revocation was not good. Galobtter (pingó mió) 01:24, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Swarm, that's a lot of bullshit.
it’s been established that the user doesn’t satisfy the granting guidelines
– who has "established" it?User who has demonstrated problematic conduct in the area of specialization
– Vpab15 has closed many requested moves in the past [4], without issues that I remember; or are you actually referring to El C? As Galobtter pointed out, the close by Vpab15 was actually reasonable and within the spirit of WP:NOGOODOPTIONS guideline. I feel the urge to defend a user who, like myself, has took upon themselves to work upon perennial RM backlog (WT:RM#Size of RM backlog over time), investing their time and energy into a largely thankless job, only to be yelled at by unhappy RM participants, or have their essential perms removed by a rogue passing admin. And you're actually ill-informed about WP:RMNAC: page movers have basically took upon themselves the job of closing Requested Moves, the area which sees very little admin input, and they need more support and less pontification like this.All closures of requested moves are subject to being taken to review at WP:Move review (WP:MR), but the mere fact that the closer was not an admin is never sufficient reason to reverse a closure. Indeed, many high-profile, controversial move requests have been closed as NACs, taken to WP:MRV, and affirmed there.
No such user (talk) 08:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- Nonsense. I’ve done nothing but provide the most objective analysis I could, based on written guidelines and longstanding norms. My arguments were multiple, thorough, and not refuted, my concerns have not been addressed at all, nor any sort of convincing rationale established for re-granting the user right. That’s fine, we all disagree with each other all the time. Now I am simply documenting my strong dissent for the record, in case there are any further issues and we need to revisit this in the future, and I hope it won’t be necessary. Doesn’t change the facts, and the fact is that there are numerous problems here which would be disqualifying for PM for any other user. ~Swarm~ {sting} 13:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Using the word "fact" to describe a minority opinion doesn't make the opinion any more persuasive. Levivich 13:45, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Anyone who actually knows me would know that, without a doubt, I would never use the word “fact” to describe even the strongest opinion. I use the term “fact” to describe objective facts, nothing more. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- When's the last time someone had page mover yanked because of a bad RM close? Levivich 06:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Anyone who actually knows me would know that, without a doubt, I would never use the word “fact” to describe even the strongest opinion. I use the term “fact” to describe objective facts, nothing more. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Using the word "fact" to describe a minority opinion doesn't make the opinion any more persuasive. Levivich 13:45, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Nonsense. I’ve done nothing but provide the most objective analysis I could, based on written guidelines and longstanding norms. My arguments were multiple, thorough, and not refuted, my concerns have not been addressed at all, nor any sort of convincing rationale established for re-granting the user right. That’s fine, we all disagree with each other all the time. Now I am simply documenting my strong dissent for the record, in case there are any further issues and we need to revisit this in the future, and I hope it won’t be necessary. Doesn’t change the facts, and the fact is that there are numerous problems here which would be disqualifying for PM for any other user. ~Swarm~ {sting} 13:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- IMO It’s been established that the user doesn’t satisfy the granting guidelines. None of my arguments that the right should not be reinstated have been refuted, and yet you’re arbitrarily regranting extremely powerful tools to a user who has demonstrated problematic conduct in the area of specialization. Over what, a procedural technicality that the criteria for revocation were not satisfied verbatim? Galobtter, I feel you betray the best interests of the community here. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll quickly add that the close definitely should've been better explained, but the outcome itself isn't bad. Galobtter (pingó mió) 03:59, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
User:StatsFreak
Threat of retaliation after giving advice that edit warring can result in a block. See this edit. Inappropriate comments such as "tough pill to swallow" and "fuming at this decision." I'm merely trying to keep the information accurate. I have no personal attachment to the company or the city of Sandusky. Also, please review user's talk page. This user has a long history of disruptive editing and multiple warnings. The edits and reversals are often spread apart by several days or weeks, but they are still disruptive.—JlACEer (talk) 03:58, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
- I warned them about their comment. I see enough decent looking edits in their contributions, that I don't know if a block is appropriate yet, but if they continue inappropriate behavior it can certainly can be done. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
- The comment was inappropriate but the content dispute itself is legitimate, and their comment is more understandable given the context. Looking up sources it looks like the company has been shifting their corporate operations away from their original HQ in Sandusky to Charlotte, and from what I can tell it is at the point where the CEO, COO, and other top executive staff are largely based out of the Charlotte location now making it a de facto corporate headquarters, much to the concern of the Sandusky camp. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:27, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
- Richard Zimmerman, the President and CEO, was in Charlotte prior to becoming CEO in 2018, so that is nothing new. The CFO is still in Sandusky and all the partnership shareholder reports, SEC filings, and IRS tax documents still list Sandusky as the corporate headquarters. Until those things change, the wiki page should not be changed.—JlACEer (talk) 15:46, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- If that's the argument you are making, that's a content matter, and should be discussed at the article talk page. Yes, the comment that StatsFreak made is inappropriate, but this is not the place to litigate a content dispute; we only deal with behavioral matters here. You may be right (or not, I don't take any stance on that), but even so, that doesn't mean that other people don't have reasonable perspectives; if there is a dispute that cannot be worked out on the article talk page, invite extra commentary from uninvolved editors using dispute resolution processes. ANI is not a place to discuss content matters. Good faith users who disagree on how to interpret a complex situation is a content issues. Stats Freak does need to take care to remain civil and avoid edit warring, but let's keep content discussions in the right spot. --Jayron32 17:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- So the de facto headquarters is only the headquarters because the CEO was already there before he became the CEO and made his existing location his new headquarters? But on the official paperwork, nothing’s changed? A fascinating content dispute, to be sure. Not something we’re going to block over. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:24, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm more concerned with the comment "this will not end well for you" along with the long history of disruptive editing and block warnings. Please look over his talk page. Warnings are useless if they are not carried out. I see this far too often where admins don't want to issue a block because the disruptions are not occurring "right now." I realize blocks are not supposed to be punitive, but at some point, someone needs to show these users that disruptive editing and threatening other users is not acceptable. He has reverted the content four times and ignored the discussion on his talk page. What happened to the three-revert rule?—JlACEer (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- I’m sorry, are you reporting this user per your original post? Or for a 3RR violation? Or for a pattern of behavioral misconduct? Your complaint has been actioned, and unless you have very convincing diffs handy, we don’t look kindly on this kind of goalpost-shifting. An admin has already told you that they have your back and that they will block if necessary. Don’t push it. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm more concerned with the comment "this will not end well for you" along with the long history of disruptive editing and block warnings. Please look over his talk page. Warnings are useless if they are not carried out. I see this far too often where admins don't want to issue a block because the disruptions are not occurring "right now." I realize blocks are not supposed to be punitive, but at some point, someone needs to show these users that disruptive editing and threatening other users is not acceptable. He has reverted the content four times and ignored the discussion on his talk page. What happened to the three-revert rule?—JlACEer (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- Richard Zimmerman, the President and CEO, was in Charlotte prior to becoming CEO in 2018, so that is nothing new. The CFO is still in Sandusky and all the partnership shareholder reports, SEC filings, and IRS tax documents still list Sandusky as the corporate headquarters. Until those things change, the wiki page should not be changed.—JlACEer (talk) 15:46, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
- The comment was inappropriate but the content dispute itself is legitimate, and their comment is more understandable given the context. Looking up sources it looks like the company has been shifting their corporate operations away from their original HQ in Sandusky to Charlotte, and from what I can tell it is at the point where the CEO, COO, and other top executive staff are largely based out of the Charlotte location now making it a de facto corporate headquarters, much to the concern of the Sandusky camp. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:27, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Sock puppetry, vandalism, and harrassment by User:Rope lesa
ALL INDEFFED | |
All socks indefinitely blocked as sockpuppets of Raxythecat per evidence presented at the sockpuppet investigations casepage. (non-admin closure) Mako001 (C) (T) 🇺🇦 04:02, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe that user:Hull Slicks, user:Laced taut, user:Preen Alpha are all sock puppets of User:Rope lesa. The all four accounts are now blocked and all accounts have engaged in vandalism of various pages concerning the Duggar family within the past few hours, with much of the more recent vandalism is attacking admins. Additionally, under the sock user:Preen Alpha, they vandalized my talk page. User:Rope lesa talk-page recently involved insulting admins and then the user disputed a speedy deletion request that was posted. I put a notice on the sock puppet noticeboard, but the user continues to create new accountants as fast as they can be blocked. Wikipedialuva. (talk) 06:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Update: Now appears to be using User:Sidelining Signup Policy. Wikipedialuva (talk) 06:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Laced taut. Uncle G (talk) 07:24, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Telanian7790 back at ANI again for tendentious behaviour on article talk page
This is the third time Telanian7790 (talk · contribs) is back at ANI.
Quick summary Telanian7790 refuses point black to focus on the content of the open RfC at Talk:College of Policing. He/she just wants to argue endlessly with anyone who disagrees with his/her point of view. In the past 48 hours Schazjmd, who put in place a {{Cot}} on part of the (now expired) RfC discussion, has removed it after another user, Hippo43, objected so some of his/her comments being hidden. Telanian7790 argued with Schazjmd (see User talk:Schazjmd#Please revisit), who sensibly told him/her to just focus on finishing the RfC (as others have previously done). Telanian7790 has instead reinstated the {{Cot}} *and* has deleted Schazjmd's comments.
Telanian7790 just will not let this drop, will not back away from the horse, and has spent so much time with tendentious behaviour that the original RfC has now expired. This an editor making virtually no positive content contributions to Wikipedia, this is a user just spoiling for a fight. --10mmsocket (talk) 14:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Clarification: on Talk:College of Policing, JulieMinkai applied a {{hat}} to part of the RfC discussion.[5] I changed it to {{cot}} and moved the {{cob}} so as not to hide RfC comments that were not part of the tangent. Since then, Telanian7790 and Hippo43 have had a slow edit-war in which they took turns moving the start of the collapse to either show or hide more of the tangent. 10mmsocket brought it up on my talk. Since the collapse was doing nothing to keep the RfC on topic and had instead just become a new battleground for the opposing editors, I removed the collapse tags and left a comment explaining. Telanian7790 reverted the removal of the tags and my comment. (Previous ANI discussions: Telanian7790 uncivil behaviour, Hippo43, BLUDGEONING again by Telanian7790: all 3 archived without resolution.) Schazjmd (talk) 15:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for clarifying. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Telanian7790 has no interest in any other topic. He has been endlessly disruptive over this article. He adds nothing positive to the project. Perhaps he could be blocked in some way? // Hippo43 (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- That is not accurate, Hippo43. I am trying to engage with you constructively and reasonably. See, for example, here: [[6]]. The problem is that you and 10mmsocket simply ignore such attempts. Indeed, you haven't even responded to my linked comment above despite the fact - and this is the irony - that I don't think we even disagree very much on the substantive issue! Instead, for weeks now, all you have both done is hurl abuse at me. Most recently, you have made baseless accusations that I am dishonest. I am not dishonest; we simply have different views. I have challenged you to explain and justify your accusation - you have failed to do so. And when other editors correctly realised that you were derailing the discussion with your false accusations and removed them, you simply ignored those editors and re-inserted them. Those editors then backed down and let you re-insert them, for reasons I frankly don't understand. My position is simple: stop derailing the conversation with personal attacks and baseless accusations of dishonesty. This should not be difficult or controversial. I do not understand why it is.Telanian7790 (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- This [7], for example, was dishonest. It is impossible for me to assume good faith on your part, or to believe you are competent to edit Wikipedia. // Hippo43 (talk) 20:59, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- That is not accurate, Hippo43. I am trying to engage with you constructively and reasonably. See, for example, here: [[6]]. The problem is that you and 10mmsocket simply ignore such attempts. Indeed, you haven't even responded to my linked comment above despite the fact - and this is the irony - that I don't think we even disagree very much on the substantive issue! Instead, for weeks now, all you have both done is hurl abuse at me. Most recently, you have made baseless accusations that I am dishonest. I am not dishonest; we simply have different views. I have challenged you to explain and justify your accusation - you have failed to do so. And when other editors correctly realised that you were derailing the discussion with your false accusations and removed them, you simply ignored those editors and re-inserted them. Those editors then backed down and let you re-insert them, for reasons I frankly don't understand. My position is simple: stop derailing the conversation with personal attacks and baseless accusations of dishonesty. This should not be difficult or controversial. I do not understand why it is.Telanian7790 (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Telanian7790 has no interest in any other topic. He has been endlessly disruptive over this article. He adds nothing positive to the project. Perhaps he could be blocked in some way? // Hippo43 (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for clarifying. 10mmsocket (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Edit war - User:Binksternet
LASER GUIDED BOOMERANG | |
(non-admin closure) DalidaEditor (talk · contribs) indefinitely partial blocked from Dalida (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) by Cullen328. Binksternet recommended this thread be closed. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I’ve read the instructions carefully and I hope I’m wrong to report here.
Recently there was chaos started happening on Dalida regarding her nationality, altho the wording was agreed 2 years ago. Two useres constantly change the info, while I'm the sole one who returns it to old state. User:Binksternet and I got in edit war an hour ago. He then proceeded to threaten me with blockage on my talk page.
Isn't it biased to warn about edit war while you are involved in it? What to do, should I stop editing now as I may get blocked? Dalida Editor please ping or message me 21:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "Italian-French" or "French-Italian" is better for lead because she was a French citizen but born to Italian parents. 106.214.120.46 (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Even if you are correct, you should request for the page to be protected. Edit warring is not a smart choice. RHF 19 (talk) 22:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19 But this what you said has nothng to do with my question...? It is not the content what is the problem now. The problem is how I was threatened by the user who is involved in conflict with me. And now you placed the warning to my talk page, and nothing to his? What is happening? I am not the first who started making changes. It is them. Dalida Editor please ping or message me 22:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19 forget my previous question, please respond on my talk page. Didn't understood... Thanks for advice.Dalida Editor please ping or message me 22:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- @DalidaEditor There have been no threats to you from any user to date. Even less from @Binksternet. Just when a user acts like you do it can have consequences. It's not for lack of having written to you on your page to establish an agreement, but your actions show that you formally oppose it. Look, even users come here talking about Dalida's French Italian nationality which you refute without reference, reliable/secondary sources. Unfortunately the problem extends to many other points. Elenora.C (talk) 22:53, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19 But this what you said has nothng to do with my question...? It is not the content what is the problem now. The problem is how I was threatened by the user who is involved in conflict with me. And now you placed the warning to my talk page, and nothing to his? What is happening? I am not the first who started making changes. It is them. Dalida Editor please ping or message me 22:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- The Dalida biography has been suffering from WP:OWN with DalidaEditor batting down good faith suggestions, arguing that their desired version is the consensus version. Last September, Nikkimaria tagged the bio as containing a fan's point of view, which was an accurate assessment. The problem still exists. Currently, the article has suffered edit-warring over the lead paragraph, with DalidaEditor leading the defensive tactics, resisting change. If this behavior continues, the article will not shake its fanpov tag. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also, DalidaEditor is now up to 6RR, passing the WP:3RR rule at high speed. Binksternet (talk) 23:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- @DalidaEditor, you should probably appeal that block. RHF 19 (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Vandalism and disruption from an IP range
2601:205:C002:D1E0:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
204.129.232.191/16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
Could someone please give these two IP ranges a block? They are obviously the same person - they reply to each other's comments and edit requests and have the same obsession with the year 2020. Basically all the edits from the /64 over the past 2+ years are disruption or vandalism.
A small selection of diffs:
- Adding racial slurs to articles [8]
- Creating Vandalism drafts, e.g Draft:What is 2020 was a person?
- Making dozens and dozens of stupid edit requests just to waste other people's time, e.g. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]
- Giving out fake warnings to editors that haven't edited in months [14]
- Blatant vandalism of articles [15] [16] [17] [18]
- Dozens and dozens of unproductive edits adding their own opinions on what is good or not to articles [19] [20] [21]
- Having stupid talk page conversations with themselves [22]
- Resubmitting spam articles to AFC without making any attempt at fixing the obvious tone issues, just to waste reviewers time and add vandalism to the short description. [23]
Thanks, 192.76.8.94 (talk) 01:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- So sockpuppeting? RHF 19 (talk) 01:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19 It's not sockpuppetry, that's just how IPv6 addresses work. One user typically gets a /64 range to themselves, which is something like a billion addresses. The IPv4 range is registered to a educational network, so I assume it's the same person editing from school. 192.76.8.94 (talk) 01:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, i see. RHF 19 (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19: See WP:/64, quite helpful. As an observation, an entire /16 (65000+ adresses) for a school, even for every school in a county, seems ridiculously large. Oshwah blocked the range Special:Contributions/204.129.128.0/18 back on 11 March 2022, so they may want to be the one to expand this to a broader block, Special:Contributions/204.209.128.0/17 seems to cover the actual adresses being used. Mako001 (C) (T) 🇺🇦 03:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, i see. RHF 19 (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- @RHF 19 It's not sockpuppetry, that's just how IPv6 addresses work. One user typically gets a /64 range to themselves, which is something like a billion addresses. The IPv4 range is registered to a educational network, so I assume it's the same person editing from school. 192.76.8.94 (talk) 01:46, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- More ongoing disruption: Recreation of their vandal draft at Draft:What if 2020 was a person. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 15:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've blocked the /64 range for one year.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
User:Chatul reported by User:Timhowardriley (Result: )
Page: Operating system (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User being reported: Chatul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Chatul is not contributing to Operating_system#Interrupts using reliable sources. Instead, he is hindering my attempts to do so. I rewrote the Interrupts section because it had this deficient legacy version. Whereas each sentence in the legacy version was technically correct, the section suffered these deficiencies:
- The sentences didn't form a narrative.
- The section was entirely original research.
- The section lacked a thesis: An operating system has an interrupt module, and its core function is to efficiently and effectively switch between running computer programs. In computer jargon, an interrupt module will likely perform a context switch. (For more information, visit Context_switch#Interrupt_handling.) If an operating system's interrupt module and context switching module are ineffective, then your computer will periodically be sluggish or freeze.
Judge for yourself if the current version alleviates these deficiencies. See Operating_system#Interrupts.
Unfortunately, improving Operating system is hindered by the unwarranted improvement tags posted by User:Chatul. His common complaint is I'm inaccurately paraphrasing the sentences in textbooks; he's being fastidiously semantic. In the Interrupts section, notice citation "[43] [44] [45] [d]"? This is citation overkill, and it's a consequence of him being fastidiously semantic.
Unwarranted Improvement tags and condescending talks are causing me stress. Maybe he doesn't realize the stress he is causing. Or maybe he wants me to go away. Anyway, I've had enough. Here are, in reverse order, his edits and talks that cause my stresses:
- With this talk entry on May 12, 2022, User:Chatul agreed that an interrupt service routine may cause a context switch. I then added back context switch to the section's lead resulting in this version. Then he moved my newly added sentence from the article to the citation's quote section. So, I started this talk thread: Talk:Operating_system#Unethically_misquoting_a_textbook.
- With this edit on May 11, 2022, User:Chatul tagged this sentence as disputed, "The control flow change is known as a context switch." The sentence had two citations from a textbook by Abraham Silberschatz. Silberschatz explains in two different sections that an interrupt will likely cause a control flow change which is known as a context switch.
- With this edit on May 10, 2022, User:Chatul tagged this sentence as disputed, "Interrupts cause the central processing unit (CPU) to have a control flow change away from the currently running process." The sentence had a citation referencing page 308 in Andrew Tanenbaum's textbook. User:Chatul's tag justification was, "The cited text does not mention context switches." However, the sentence he disputed didn't have context switches in it either.
- With this edit on April 20, 2022, User:Chatul tag bombed the subsection I/O channel. The subsection was entirely paraphrased from Tanenbaum's textbook and was well cited. Moreover, each citation had a link to the specific page in an online version of Tanenbaum's textbook, like page 55. However, User:Chatul was not pleased. Instead of improving the subsection using his own reliable sources, he generated this talk thread. I was disturbed that he accused me of violating the neutral point of view requirement. This talk thread caused me to run out of energy. The talk thread was 2,063 words, but the subsection had only 134 words. I deleted the subsection.
- With this edit on April 19, 2022, User:Chatul accused me of violating the neutral point of view requirement. Again, I/O Channel was entirely paraphrased from Tanenbaum's textbook.
I'm a student of computer technology; I have no bias. Different technologies have different strengths and weaknesses. User:Chatul's NPOV accusation is an unsupported denigration. Moreover, it's not just me he's denigrating. With his talk section titled NPOV: undue emphasis on microprocessors, he's denigrating all of the editors. If I were pretending to be Sigmund Freud, I would say he's projecting his IBM System/360 bias.
Wikipedia:Tendentious_editing#Disputing_the_reliability_of_apparently_good_sources says, "There is nothing wrong with questioning the reliability of sources, to a point. But there is a limit to how far one may reasonably go in an effort to discredit the validity of what most other contributors consider to be reliable sources, especially when multiple sources are being questioned in this manner." * The Interrupts section has multiple textbooks as sources. It's been stressful to be denigrated while studiously performing secondary research.
Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Attempts_to_evade_detection says, "Bad-faith disruptive editors attempt to evade disciplinary action in several ways: Their edits occur over a long period of time, in which case no single edit is disruptive but the overall pattern clearly is. Their edits are largely confined to talk pages; such disruption may not directly harm an article, but it often prevents other editors from reaching consensus on how to improve it." * After a long period of time, I now get stressed feelings making edits to the Operating System article. User:Chatul doesn't improve the article using reliable sources. Instead, he questions my edits in the talk page and posts improvement tags in the article.
Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing says, "A disruptive editor is an editor who exhibits tendencies such as the following: Engages in 'disruptive cite-tagging'; adds unjustified citation needed tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable." * See here.
Generally speaking, User:Chatul is more concerned with nuance than writing an encyclopedia. He finds a flaw in everything. Here is one example. Well, maybe technology is so vast, that flaws in sentences are unavoidable. Put another way: for a technology sentence to be flawless, it must be overly qualified. The Wikipedia principle that comes to mind is Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_bureaucracy. It says, "Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policies without consideration for their principles. If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them." * If there's a rule saying that paraphrasing a source must contain every word in the source, then ignore that rule. Otherwise, very little will get paraphrased.
Operating System is an important article in computer science. Moreover, there's a lot of reliable sources available to make it a good article. To become good, it needs to attract editors stimulated by secondary research. Please help provide a non-hostile environment by blocking User:Chatul from editing it for one year. Don't get me wrong — User:Chatul does know about operating systems. However, he needs to gain experience in secondary research to appreciate its benefits. Timhowardriley (talk) 07:35, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Timhowardriley did *not* paraphrase the quotations in question, e.g., "causes" is very different from "also known as.". I ask that the administrators read the quoted text and compare it to the text in the article.
- Disputing the accuracy of text in the article is not the same as disputing the accuracy of citing the accuracy of a cited source, especially when there is disagreement as to whether the source justifies the text.
- Claiming a WP:NPOV issue is not a personal attack. An article can fail to be neutral for a host of reasons, not just because of biased editors.
- Even after I asked Timhowardriley to maintain a civil discussion, he continued to violate WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and wp:NPA, e.g., describing an error in editing as unethical. For that matter,
If I were pretending to be Sigmund Freud, I would say he's projecting his IBM System/360 bias.
also violates WP:NPA. - as to an IBM S/360 bias, the first operating system that I worked on not only didn't run on an S/360, it didn't run on any IBM processor.
- Normally I follow WP:BOLD. However, when an editor has a pattern of reverting edits without discussion, then it is reasonable to start a discussion on the talk page before changing the text of an article, especially changes that require a lot of work.
- The number of, e.g., {{cn}}, {{disputed}}, tags that I have added is far too small for any reasonable person to consider them tag bombing.
- The terms "context switch" and, e.g., "chage processes", "switch processes", are effectively synonymous.
- It seems strange to demand citations and then complain about citation overkill.
- BTW, is it really appropriate to post the same issue to multiple notice boards, fragmenting the discussion?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chatul (talk • contribs)
- * Regarding
Timhowardriley did *not* paraphrase the quotations in question,
: I always try to paraphrase from sources as accurately as possible. My self-interest in writing technology articles is it forces me to return to my college textbooks and paraphrase them. I'm then able to apply what I relearn to my work. - * Regarding
e.g., 'causes' is very different from 'also known as.'
: Yes, there is a semantic difference between 'causes' and 'also known as'. However, this oversimplifies the conflict. You reverted all of my attempts to equate interrupts to context switch. This relationship is significant. Whatever words are appropriate, they should be used. I don't understand why you object to equating interrupts to context switches in the section. It was frustrating when you wrote things like, "Misconstruing quoted text". I stand by my accusation that you exhibit fastidiously semantic behaviors. - * Regarding
I ask that the administrators read the quoted text and compare it to the text in the article.
: I encourage everyone willing to help out to do so. The goal is to make the article as accurate as possible. - * Regarding
Disputing the accuracy of text in the article is not the same as disputing the accuracy of citing the accuracy of a cited source, especially when there is disagreement as to whether the source justifies the text.
: I don't fully understand, "disputing the accuracy of citing the accuracy of a cited source". So, I'm going to assume you're disputing the quality of my paraphrasing from a reliable source. Yes, I may incorrectly paraphrase a source. However, I know the subject matter of my edits. If you're going to correct me, your correction needs to be either persuasive or sourced. Also, I frequently re-edited my work to take into account what I learned from you. - * Regarding
Claiming a WP:NPOV issue is not a personal attack. An article can fail to be neutral for a host of reasons, not just because of biased editors.
: True, WP:NPOV is not a personal attack. Instead, it's an edit attack. Violating NPOV is a major taboo in Wikipedia. Use this accusation with care. My edits are paraphrases from reliable sources. If the published author isn't taking into consideration your favorite technology, then my paraphrase won't either. Instead of asserting NPOV, perform secondary research and describe how your favorite technology handles the subject matter. - * Regarding
Even after I asked Timhowardriley to maintain a civil discussion, he continued to violate WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and wp:NPA
: I reject this ad hominem. Please post diffs. - * Regarding
describing an error in editing as unethical.
: In the talk section you wrote, "Please stop the insane accusations and enter into a civil discussion. I did nothing unethical, nor did I misquote anything. Unlike you, I'm not perfect[.]" Your remark isn't admitting to an error. Nor have you fixed your edit. I think you don't care that thequote =
field in thecite book
tag is incorrect. - * Regarding
For that matter, 'If I were pretending to be Sigmund Freud, I would say he's projecting his IBM System/360 bias.' also violates WP:NPA.
: Yes, accusing you of IBM System/360 bias is a personal attack. As a matter of fact, this entire thread is a series of personal attacks. By the nature of this forum, personal attacks are the essence. Also, please be aware that my observations of your edits and talks convince me that you have an IBM System/360 bias. I raise this as an issue because it's hypocritical for you to accuse me of violating the neutral point of view policy. Another point: the IBM System/360 is completely retired. Textbook authors no longer consider this technology in their books. Therefore, my paraphrasing of their books won't take into consideration how the IBM System/360 handled the subject. - * Regarding
as to an IBM S/360 bias, the first operating system that I worked on not only didn't run on an S/360, it didn't run on any IBM processor.
: You have a lot of operating system experience. I wish you would use your gained knowledge to building the Operating system article using secondary research with reliable sources. - * Regarding
Normally I follow WP:BOLD. However, when an editor has a pattern of reverting edits without discussion ...
: This is not true. I'm happy to talk about my edits and reverts. When I engage in discussions, I try to persuade others using the quotes from my sources. Here's an example. On the other hand, when you engage in discussions, you lecture from what you know. You don't support your arguments with quotes from sources. - * Regarding
The number of, e.g., {{cn}}, {{disputed}}, tags that I have added is far too small for any reasonable person to consider them tag bombing.
: You made it very frustrating to try to write the I/O channel subsection. You have experience in I/O channels but didn't help the subsection. I wrote the subsection by paraphrasing from a published textbook which is now online. You referred me to IBM's System/360 manual which describes IBM's implementation of I/O channels. I wish you would have used these sources to help edit the subsection. Instead, you lectured me in the talk and tag bombed the subsection. - * Regarding
The terms 'context switch' and, e.g., 'chage processes', 'switch processes', are effectively synonymous.
: Not really. To be semantic, a context switch is a highly defined process. It also consumes a disproportionate amount of CPU cycles. Conveying this message in the Interrupts subsection should be the thesis. Under what circumstances is a context switch appropriate vs. under what circumstances can the context switch be skipped? - * Regarding
It seems strange to demand citations and then complain about citation overkill.
: This is why you should be blocked from editing the article for a year. You need to learn this lesson: Build a Wikipedia article by performing secondary research. Of course, use your own knowledge to direct your secondary research. In the article, cite the sources of your assertions — including the page numbers. Then the reader can verify them. The reader may find a flaw in an assertion. (A critical thinker is always looking.) Wikipedia has a forum for the flaw to be talked about. If the flaw is material and can be fixed, then the article will be improved. Instead of this approach, you perform original research and cite a series of documents without providing any page numbers. Here is your most recent example. Refer to the paragraph beginning with "UNIVAC, the first commercial computer manufacturer, produced a series of EXEC operating systems". Your method of editing gives the illusion of authority but none exists. - * Regarding
BTW, is it really appropriate to post the same issue to multiple notice boards, fragmenting the discussion?
: I was referred to this notice board from the edit warring notice board. See here. Timhowardriley (talk) 20:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- I'm not going to address the entire wall of text, but a few salient points.
- If you point out the relevant sentence, preferably in talk:Operating system, I'll be happy to move it where it belongs.
- I've been attempting to find sources that are accessible to readers, preferably online and enabled for copy and search. A lot of the relevant material is only available in hardcopy or is behind a paywall. For some systems it is hard to find secondary sources, but that doesn't mean that those systems are irrelevant.
- Yes, I disagree with equating an interrupt with a context switch. In fact, one source[1] lists an interrupt as only one of seven steps for a context switch.
- S/360 is retired, but it is ancestral to and much simpler than z/OS. Further, the relevant documentation is in the public domain, while much of the inner working of z/OS is inaccessible to the public. For those reasons it makes more sense to describe OS/360 sources than z/OS.
- I don't expect or want you to take OS/360 into consideration beyond acknowledging that the logic and organization of operating systems varies from system to system, sometimes within a single vendor.
- If wanting the text to be correct makes me fastidiously semantic, than I take it as a badge of honor. "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." In particular, some foo is bar and even most foo are bar should never be confused with all foo are bar.
- You may have convinced yourself that I have an S/360 bias, but, if anything, I have a Multics bias, despite never having had the good fortune to run on it in its heyday.
I was referred to this notice board from the edit warring notice board.
Okay, that sounds reasonable. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 23:04, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- Regarding
In fact, one source[1] lists an interrupt as only one of seven steps for a context switch.
: Of course, this is not the forum for a technical discussion. Moreover, it's too late in the process to introduce this source. Finally, your source supports my thesis that an interrupt most likely results in a context switch. Timhowardriley (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- Oh! I misspoke. I said "equate" when I meant to say "relate". Sorry. Timhowardriley (talk) 05:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, it says nothing about the likelihood that an interrupt will result in a context switch. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Here we go again. You said,
"In fact, one source[1] lists an interrupt as only one of seven steps for a context switch."
Administrator, please help! Timhowardriley (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC) - I wrote an essay to describe an environment like this. See User:Timhowardriley#Why_the_sky_is_blue. Timhowardriley (talk) 17:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Here we go again. You said,
- Regarding
- * Regarding
References
Ban Appeal (Chicdat)
I am here to appeal a namespace ban from the namespace "Wikipedia:" that was imposed on me back in November. At the time, I believed that a ban was far too harsh a measure. And indeed, it would have been, and likely would have resulted in little more than a warning, had it been the only issue in and around project space. I was banned for misuse of WP:BOLD, failure to heed and understand WP:CONSENSUS, and first and foremost, WP:CIR.
WP:CIA's first sentence is People learn at different rates.
Some things I learned slower than others. I was still incompetent in some parts of Wikipedia, and could accept blatant spam, while only a month later deliver important comments in an RfC that got mentioned on WP:IRITALK. With my mentor's help, I was able to remedy my AFC problem, but I still understood consensus very poorly. This was supposed to be part of my mentorship course, but alas, my mentor went inactive just as I was beginning to work on it.
And with the inactivity of my mentor, I was unable to gain competence in block-related areas, and misused a policy to deliver incorrect information to a blocked editor. Then, I reverted reversions of edits of Kashmorwiki's (WP:G5), and created this stupid AN thread. I was pretty sure that I would be WP:BOOMERANGed into a ban, so I gave myself a voluntary restriction.
Sadly, the voluntary restriction didn't seem to work very well to remedy my WP:CIR issues. Now that I had no mentor, I was no longer acquiring competence, so I entered a downward spiral. I began to repeatedly discuss adding archives to RfPP, and when the first request was archived with a general consensus of no, I opened a second on the same topic, unable to read the comments and get the message that consensus probably hadn't changed in two months. When the second went the same way as the first, I finally dropped the stick (but I still got mentioned at AN). Then, following this discussion, I expanded my (not-so) voluntary restriction.
Then, I decided to begin the path to becoming a productive Wikipedian. I requested pending changes reviewer, and suceeded. (You can see my review log here). I then entered longevity, nominating articles for deletion. With that, I had competence in AfD.
Late October came, and I made some very poor edits. It began with moving a page against consensus, then I changed a template without consensus, I edit-warred across multiple longevity pages, I made exceedingly poor comments at WP:RFA2021, the list goes on and on. This culminated in disruptive editing on WP:RfP, pretending that my edits fell under WP:BOLD, misusing WP:SILENCE... If I hadn't been banned, I likely would have been indeffed before Thanksgiving. But WP:RfP was the last straw. My voluntary restriction was replaced with a ban from editing Wikipedia-namespace pages. Since then there have been two incidents, both early in my ban, that I must explain.
Since October I had been in a content dispute with another editor, Renewal6, about a man's death date. I do not view this as failing to read consensus, as one editor did support my viewpoint (see User_talk:Chicdat/Archive_6#Death_of_Gustav_Gerneth), but I do see it as failing to drop the stick, as I only accepted Renewal6's viewpoint when I found evidence for it. I was clearly wrong on this matter, and if other editors see this as an issue with unbanning, I accept that. This dispute ended in an ANI discussion, in which I used WP:BANEX to make my first and only Wikipedia-space edit since the ban began.
The second issue also involved edit warring, which got me blocked. I was watching WP:VPI and noticed that an editor who had proposed something on the page, User:DSMN-IHSAGT, was making problematic edits elsewhere. On one of these pages, Names of European cities in different languages (U–Z), I reverted once per WP:BRD. Then I saw an ANI discussion, in which DSMN-IHSAGT was being reported as a WP:BKFIP sock puppet. This made me revert more. Then, I hesitated. The third point of WP:NOT3RR was about reverting LTAs, but how productive, really, was reverting edits that weren't even especially bad in principle? What I really wanted to do, of course, was comment at the ANI discussion, but I wasn't sure whether that fell under WP:BANEX or not. (In a later discussion, it was determined that it did not.) So I decided to notify admins about it. I messaged Enterprisey (User talk:Enterprisey#Block this LTA now, please). Enterprisey, however, was not active at the time, so I went back to reverting. I shouldn't have stooped to an LTA's level, but I was fueled by the personal attacks they were making. Then, I noticed that Thryduulf was online, so I messaged them. However, Thryduulf was apparently unfamiliar with BKFIP, so they saw an extremely severe edit war with both editors in enormous violation of WP:3RR. Thryduulf blocked both me and DSMN-IHSAGT for 36 hours.
I will admit that I now know by far the best way to handle this was to not make 45 reverts, but to instead place a non-cryptic message on Thryduulf's talk page before making a single revert.
I'd just like to explain one more thing. The comment on my talk page @Skarmory: Yes, it does. Maybe put the contradiction up on XRV 🐔dat (talk) 11:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
was not a back-end attempt to get my ban removed. Instead it was a simple suggestion to decide whether or not I can make requests, and which comment won out. The other user did not do this and I am fine with that. To be safe, I have not made any requests on talk pages since then.
In 2022, I've begun to make much better work. For instance, note the talk page history of User talk:Дејан2021 (a paid editor and copyright violator which I identified) and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1092#COI and disruptive editing, in which I was mentioned (but in a good way). While all of the list articles were made re-directs to List of supercentenarians by continent by @🐔dat, in a good faith effort to combat the flood of WP:NOTHERE, ...
My edits have gone from problematic enough to get a topic ban to combatting WP:NOTHERE.
Since February, I've mostly become a gnome living in Special:LintErrors/missing-end-tag, mainly because of this. I've fixed over 2,000 errors, and have done it without error, except in my first month.
If I am unbanned:
If I am unbanned, I will be much more careful, meaning that in the first six months:
- I will stay out of most noticeboards
- I will discuss all edits I am making before doing them unless
- They are requests
- They are edits that nobody would ever have a problem with, like
- Reverting vandalism
- Fixing lint errors
- They are discussing something
- They are implementing something I previously discussed
- If there are problems with my edits, I will not try to reinstate them unless I have understood what I did wrong
- I will try my best to stay out of disputes
This falls under WP:BANEX (Appealing a ban).
🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 11:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm the same IP editor that started the discussion that let to the topic ban so I'm not planning on !voting here. The only comment I will make is that I did notice that after the topic ban was imposed you took to commenting a lot on WT:CSD with more of the same kind of issues that lead to the topic ban in the first place, namely jumping into discussions that you haven't read or understood properly with comments that show you fundamentally misunderstand policy. Here [24] You start an RFC on merging U1 and G7, two criteria that apply under completely different criteria. This idea had also been discussed to death in the past, and the discussion was speedy closed [25]. Here [26] you join a discussion about extending U5 to cover webhosting in draft space. An editor provides an example page that could be deleted under the criteria if it were extended into draft space and asks why it couldn't be deleted as webhosting, to which you reply with a comment that U5 only applied to user pages (the entire thing being discussed). Here [27] You start an RFC to create a new speedy deletion criteria that would apply to any unsourced article. Rather predictably this is snow opposed [28] for a huge number of issues. Here [29] someone noticed a load of ancient redirects from old article space subpages/drafts and asks whether they should be deleted or not. You jump into this discussion with the daft comment "x3". Not only is it a ridiculous suggestion to make an entire new speedy deletion criteria for a few dozen pages and a completely unhelpful response for a newbie looking for help these pages cannot be deleted at all, because they contain ancient page history that needs to be kept for copyright reasons. Admittedly this is a few months old, but do you have any examples you would like to share where you show that you understand how to contribute to complicated discussions in a more productive way? 163.1.15.238 (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have been making good edits to discussions since then, namely Wikipedia talk:Linter#Something's wrong with Linter, User talk:Дејан2021, and Matriarch-info's edits on my talk page. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 12:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, I feel like an appeal of 1240 words (7200 characters) of readable prose should be summarily declined. It feels like not a reasonable expectation of volunteer editors, and I think block appeals are often declined for length (Yamla might be able to confirm?). Nevertheless, I skim read the above and it reads like an acceptable ban appeal, but I'm sceptical. Late 2021/early 2022 Chicdat was constantly trying to push the boundaries of his ban through constant clarifications with the banning admin (Daniel), to which Daniel eventually replied
Please stop trying to find ways around your ban, it isn't a good look (to me, at least, and I assume others).
[30] I recall some questionable activity in the 'Wikipedia talk:' namespace which I felt violated the spirit of the ban (staying away from backstage areas).[31][32][33] Since January 2022, when they stopped participating in non-WikiProject "Wikipedia talk:", they haven't really done any substantive editing. Going over their last 1500 edits, aside from drafting this ban appeal, they're mostly small linter fixes. There is minimal participation on talk pages [34]. This is to say, it's quite difficult to assess whether the CIR issues have improved when we don't really have a decent sample of substantive edits to look at. To be clear, Chicdat's pre-ban behaviour was quite disruptive, and the nature of it was such that it's quite difficult to impose sanctions until a lot of infractions are made. I think these bans are best kept in place for a longer period (at minimum a year), as the necessity of the ban will only really decrease with time, unless there's strong evidence to show the issues have dissipated. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- In fairness to the point about length, it seems like a good chunk of the statement is them just summarizing what had happened. Curbon7 (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- For non-WPANI unblock requests, I've never seen a > 1000 word request accepted. I'm very sure it's happened, I just can't recall personally seeing one succeed. I'd generally point to WP:WALLOFTEXT and recommend cutting the length by a factor of 10. I make no claim this particular request is too long, though. I'd expect a request going to WP:ANI to be longer. Perhaps not this long, but for example 50 words isn't likely to cut it. :) --Yamla (talk) 19:58, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I recall some questionable activity in the 'Wikipedia talk:' namespace which I felt violated the spirit of the ban (staying away from backstage areas).
The ban is not broadly constructed; all it does is restrict me from Wikipedia-space. Editing in Wikipedia talk is perfectly fine, the ban statement saysHe is still able to edit the talkpages of these pages to make any requests and engage in discussions.
🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:10, 17 May 2022 (UTC)- I didn't say you violated the terms of your ban as-written, I said I feel those edits violate the spirit of the ban. People had concerns especially with your participation in backstage/administrative areas. As Levivich says below, many of these contributions wasted the time of others. So when you propose a new CSD (which was universally opposed) and argue this editing was
perfectly fine
it seems like you don't know exactly why you were banned. I think it's backed a bit by [35] as well. I believe the main purpose of the "Wikipedia talk:" exemption was so that you could participate in WikiProject activities. I would like to see some good, substantive participation in those areas before I think I can support the lifting of this ban. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)- @ProcrastinatingReader: I did participate in WikiProject activities. I have made 22 edits to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather since the ban. Nobody seems to have pointed that out. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't say you violated the terms of your ban as-written, I said I feel those edits violate the spirit of the ban. People had concerns especially with your participation in backstage/administrative areas. As Levivich says below, many of these contributions wasted the time of others. So when you propose a new CSD (which was universally opposed) and argue this editing was
- In fairness to the point about length, it seems like a good chunk of the statement is them just summarizing what had happened. Curbon7 (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm very hesitant to see this topic ban lifted due to the excessive disruption that Chicdat's editing in Wikipedia space caused. It's hard to point to specific diffs because it was akin to death by a thousand cuts. There hasn't been much disruption because the topic ban appears to be working; that's a reason for keeping the ban in place, not lifting it. Fixing thousand of lint errors doesn't demonstrate at all that a ban on Wikipedia space should be lifted.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 19:30, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- The disruption at WT:CSD after the topic ban demonstrates ongoing competency issues. -- Tavix (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- The most recent edit that I made to WT:CSD was in January. This is not ongoing by any means, and I believe that my comments on User talk:Дејан2021 demonstrate substantial competence, as does [36]. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- So you don't think you should be held accountable for negative things you did in January, but want to get credit for positive things you did in January? -- Tavix (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, I'm not saying that at all, I'm only saying that it doesn't demonstrate "ongoing" competency issues if it was three and a half months ago. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 09:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- So you don't think you should be held accountable for negative things you did in January, but want to get credit for positive things you did in January? -- Tavix (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The most recent edit that I made to WT:CSD was in January. This is not ongoing by any means, and I believe that my comments on User talk:Дејан2021 demonstrate substantial competence, as does [36]. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Alternative proposal
It's clear that unbanning me isn't going to work. There are concerns about length of my request (maybe I should have removed the summary), and concerns that lifting the ban would just allow the disruption to continue. So how about just partially unbanning me, so I can edit every page beginning with Wikipedia:WikiProject? 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm glad you're quickly "reading the room". As to the alternate proposal, I don't see anywhere in your OP where you mention WikiProjects, so I don't see why you're raising it now. You were banned, fundamentally, because you wasted a lot of other people's time. You made edits that required other people to take time to respond to you in one way or another, without any benefit to the encyclopedia. You did this often and it inconvenienced many other people, and you wouldn't stop when asked repeatedly, so you were banned from the project namespace because it's the only way we could think of to stop you from wasting our time. Now, ask yourself: is answering "how about just partially unbanning me, so I can edit every page beginning with Wikipedia:WikiProject" a good use of everyone else's time? It wasn't important enough for you to mention in your OP at all. You're not giving any examples of what you'd do if you could edit WikiProject pages. As you've pointed out above, you can already edit the talk pages, so why are you asking everyone else to take time out of their day to decide whether you can edit WikiProject pages? Is that a good use of everyone's time? You still don't seem to be careful about how you're using (or asking for) other people's time here. Sorry, but I oppose. In my view, the best thing you can do is withdraw this entirely, go back to editing like you have been, and don't come back here and ask everyone to spend their time focused on your ban until you have a good reason why that would be a good use of everyone's time, which means tell us specifically what it is you want to do that you can't do because of the ban, and that would benefit the encyclopedia as a whole. I understand you don't want to be banned but you gotta understand why the rest of us felt it was necessary: it's all about other editors' time. You won't convince us that you won't waste it by wasting it on a request for a consolation prize. Levivich 13:42, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: It matters because there are plenty of things I want to do in WikiProject space, like removing created articles from Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather/Article requests, joining Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather/2022 C/B Class Drive, and removing myself from Wikipedia:WikiProject Poultry. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 09:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Chicdat: I have taken the liberty of removing you from Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds/Poultry task force/Participants as requested. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 10:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, User:Trey Maturin. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 10:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Chicdat: I have taken the liberty of removing you from Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds/Poultry task force/Participants as requested. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 10:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: It matters because there are plenty of things I want to do in WikiProject space, like removing created articles from Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather/Article requests, joining Wikipedia:WikiProject Weather/2022 C/B Class Drive, and removing myself from Wikipedia:WikiProject Poultry. 🇺🇦 Chicdat Bawk to me! 09:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Nationality edit warrior
So I've recently come across the Editholic (talk · contribs) who appears to mainly edit, and edit war, over people's nationalities. They especially seem to be keen on changing British to English and related. They're very clearly edit warring all over the place and could even be editing logged out in some cases to avoid 3RR. They've been warned several times and keep insisting on changing nationalities to their preferred version. Now normally I'd just block, or take to the EW noticeboard, but I have a brain scratch that this may not be a new editor and we've seen it before. I know many other editors have seem more UK nationality edit warriors and they may be familiar to them.
- Ascribing an identity to people from Northern Ireland. We generally don't do this due to the sensitive nature of it, and I've informed them of this and there was some back and forth but they really don't seem to care for anything other than their preference.
- Continual pushing of their preferred English nationality way beyond reasonable limits on the song article Space Man. [37], [38], [39], [40], [41]
- Possibly editing while logged out as User:5.55.204.219 (Editholic
- Edit warring on the article Sam Ryder (singer) again to push English over British regardless of sources. [42], [43], [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49] (and related articles)
- Removing any edits that may suggest someone is more than one nationality [50], and [51] regardless of what's actually in the article and referenced
- More British to English [52]
- More pushing of identity on a person from Northern Ireland [53], [54], [55] for their preferred wording and boxing
- Some just bizarre ones [56] where the edit summary is "(It is unknown if Miftaraj is Albanian or Kosovan so keeping Albanian till it gets disclosed)"
- General refusal to follow any processes other than what they preferred. Several editors have warned them and tried to engage on their page or in edit summaries, but they just ignore them all.
However I do have a feeling that in addition to this disruption that we may have seen this editor before and someone else may know of them. Canterbury Tail talk 11:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- The British --> English stuff matches a few different people. I did some advanced searching through archives, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bitterpillsandalcohol is one, and earlier this year was User:Lil Pablo 2007. Not sure if either of those match, nationality warriors are almost as common as genre warriors... --Jayron32 12:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- The absolute refusal to understand what Canterbury Tail was telling them about the "Northern Irish" issue is a CIR issue even if they're not a sock. My inclination would be to indef them regardless. Black Kite (talk) 12:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oh they also have a thing for removing things like places of birth etc from the article on the grounds that it's in the infobox. Canterbury Tail talk 13:00, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've seen enough. Indeffed as NOTHERE. Mjroots (talk) 13:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Mjroots Closely followed by another account swooping in and making their first edit for four months to revert [57]. I have protected the article. Black Kite (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And that follows with the pattern I've been seeing about them potentially having Greek IP addresses and having an interest in Greek singers. So yes definitely glad I opened this as it's clearly something larger than a single account. Canterbury Tail talk 14:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is this them? 79.166.68.242 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) I encountered this user on Josh James (baseball). – Muboshgu (talk) 15:38, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I blocked the IP for 36 hours. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And now they're just IP hopping and socking like crazy. User:89.210.61.14 as well, I just blocked it. Canterbury Tail talk 16:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And just blocked more of their IP hopping shenanigans at User:2a02:1388:2085:27f0::14b3:58a. That's at least 4 now I think. Canterbury Tail talk 23:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And now they're just IP hopping and socking like crazy. User:89.210.61.14 as well, I just blocked it. Canterbury Tail talk 16:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And that follows with the pattern I've been seeing about them potentially having Greek IP addresses and having an interest in Greek singers. So yes definitely glad I opened this as it's clearly something larger than a single account. Canterbury Tail talk 14:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Mjroots Closely followed by another account swooping in and making their first edit for four months to revert [57]. I have protected the article. Black Kite (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've seen enough. Indeffed as NOTHERE. Mjroots (talk) 13:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- And they've now taken to creating new accounts, see Editpedian (talk · contribs). Canterbury Tail talk 10:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've looked into this further, I'm certain they're all socks of Dealer07 (talk · contribs) so this is a LTA now. Canterbury Tail talk 11:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
sonofcalifornia disruptively editing
New user sonofcalifornia has been adding unsourced information in editorializing manner at Christopher Rufo. User refuses to discuss changes at talk page, despite multiple reversions. I have stopped reverting in recognition of 3RR. Initial edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Rufo&diff=1088052007 1st Reversion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Rufo&diff=1088060494 2nd Reversion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Rufo&diff=1088093331 —Hobomok (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- (After an NPOV welcome) I notified SonOfCalifornia of ds sanctions in the BLP area after seeing their edits to Elise Stefanik and Christopher Rufo. SOC's edits include unsourced claims such as
Rufo is an example of the current turn in conservative thought and policy toward lauding the policy proposals of dictators, particularly on issues concerning education and LGBTQ rights.
Schazjmd (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)- I have removed the passage in question. 156.1.40.20 (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have sourced all information and have not added anything that is not verifiable. Neutrality does not imply omission of elements of a subject's work that are counterfactual. I stand by my edits and thank you for your feedback. 156.1.40.20 (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
User continues to revert to their own version of the page (diff that does not follow encyclopedic tone, often does not cite claims, and relies on suspect sources when they do cite claims (flux.community ?). User refuses to engage with other editors at talk.--Hobomok (talk) 18:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Block evasion via ISP by 16ConcordeSSC
174.212.99.253 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is 16ConcordeSSC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who has identified himself by a real name on another editor's talk page here: The later was blocked for personal attacks and persistent addition of unsourced content in earlier incidents: here here, and here.
While his latest edits appear to be just grammar and punctuation he also appears to be soliciting surrogate editing here rather than asking to be unblocked.Blue Riband► 18:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, this editor has been using IPs to evade his block for a long time. I filed an SPI a while back which led to a few of his favorite targets being semi-protected, but thus far no one has taken the steps needed to shut down his block evasion. That would involve blocking his IP ranges and/or semiprotecting a large number of railroad related articles. If he's genuine about wanting to be a constructive editor again, the process for appealing an indef should be explained to him, but I doubt any such appeal would be granted after this level of block evasion. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:09, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- He say's that he's gone but past experience indicates that he will be back doing the same things yet again. It's a sad case of WP:NOTHERE: Somebody with his knowledge and experience could substantially improve articles but he refuses to source and expresses contempt for editors that came before him. Blue Riband► 18:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Request for an Administrator's Intervention
Not an ANI matter. casualdejekyll 15:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would really appreciate an administrator's intervention. An editor Gonnym (talk) has just nominated a banner template
Template:WikiProject Nigeria/Lagos (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages · delete) which survived a speedy deletion tag in 2017. His rationale is that the template should be replaced with the base version (Template:WikiProject Nigeria) as it doesn't allow usage of any other banner value (and modifying it to support them is just an exerise in maintenance burden). As a consequence it also causes pages to use the same banner more than once (see Talk:Ronke Odusanya)
The TFD discussion is currently underway here: the entry on the Templates for discussion page.
My rationale is that the banner template Template:WikiProject Nigeria/Lagos aids the categorization of uncategorised new or existing Nigerian articles to the Nigerian WikiProject while simultaneously including them to their related sister WikiProjects of the remaining states of the country. To the best of my knowledge, at the time of this discussion, there are at least two Nigerian states with these sister templates, i.e. Rivers State and Lagos State. The editor's observations are based on this article Talk:Ronke Odusanya and others affected and I agreed that it is unnecessary to use the two templates at the same time. However, I opine that this issue does not warrant a nomination for deletion as it can be corrected by removing the repetitive templates from the affected articles' talk pages. However, I have also been involved in the categorizations of numerous articles using only these sister/state banner templates of Lagos State:Template:WikiProject Nigeria/Lagos orWikiProject Nigeria / Lagos | (Rated Project-class) | ||||||||||||
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WikiProject Nigeria / Rivers State | (Rated NA-class) | ||||||||||||
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I don't know what the outcome of the TFD discussion will be but if the banner template ends up being deleted or merged, I need an administrator to prevent numerous affected articles from being removed from their state/city WikiProjects.-Eruditescholar (talk) 21:10, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- What a bizarre request for intervention. Gonnym (talk) 22:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Eruditescholar This is not something appropriate for WP:ANI. As mentioned at the top, this page is for "urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems". Clearly make your case for what you want to be done with the templates on the TFD page and the closer will assess what should happen. Galobtter (pingó mió) 02:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
User:Austin012599 at List of Amphibia characters
WRONG FORUM | |
please copy the below conversation to Talk:List of Amphibia characters, which is the correct place for the discussion to occur. Please do not use ANI to negotiate content changes or solve dispute resolution problems. It is very good to talk it out as y'all are doing. Just not here. --Jayron32 12:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Disruptive editing. Repeated removal of a plot point from the final episode of Amphibia added by myself and other users, regarding the portrayal of a relationship between two characters in the episode's epilogue. ([58] [59] [60] [61]) I attempted to start a dialogue, including asking for a third party opinion. When the neutral party stated that a specific source I had put forth would not be sufficient as citation, I conceded and instead cited a tweet by the actor of one of the characters that explcitly clarified the aforementioned plot point. The other user reverted this, violating 3RR in the process, but did not give sufficient reason why this source "doesn't count", despite my elaborating on why it did according to WP:Twitter. When I attempted to once again add a summary of their actions in the episode, this time removing any mention of romantic implications, it was once again reverted without explanation. Based on this, I can no longer assume this user to be acting in good faith. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
It's simple, really.
In the past, I've tried incorporating thoughts on something given by a certain actor, even providing a source. However, the incorporation was instead shutdown by someone else, and I was later told that whatever a performer says about something isn't important compared to that of a show or film creator.Austin012599 (talk) 22:38, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's not really an excuse, per WP:WHATABOUT. Also, that doesn't explain the decision to revert the last edit that didn't mention their relationship at all. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 22:44, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
That part was out of habit, actually.
Because of the large amount of edit warring, I became incredibly used to you incorporating the exact same piece and supposed source as before, even in spite of our conversations. I immediately assumed that you incorporated the same thing and didn’t bother to really look in on the matter, so I erased it on a whim.
I’m sorry about that.Austin012599 (talk) 22:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I’ve just reincorporated what you previously typed.Austin012599 (talk) 22:54, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I acccept your apology, but to say the text and source were unchanged is wholly inaccurate. This edit was the only one to cite Fazal's tweet, after the previous two I made were reverted. It's also not an excuse for violating WP:3RR, given the edit does not fall under one of the listed exemptions to the rule. Furthermore, as I said before, I cited the exact Wikipedia policy that states the tweet is an acceptable source, and reverting it, in your own words, "Because I don’t think what you think, for one" is not an acceptable reason to do so. While the word of a show's creator will always take precedent, there's no reason why the word of any other member of the episode's production team is invalid, especially when the creator has not said anything to the contrary. You can't say something doesn't count just because you disagree with it. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 23:02, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also, stop asserting that certain sites are "completely unreliable" despite Wikipedia saying otherwise. This feeds back into my original point about you letting your personal feelings on a subject dictate what counts as reliable rather than what is listed in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 00:20, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Rupturestriker
- Rupturestriker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
For whatever reason, film production companies have been a disruptive topic similar to professional wrestling. Everyone seems to come to different conclusions as to who produced what film. There are many primary sources, all of which could be interpreted differently. This is why {{infobox film}} says to cite the production companies to a reliable source. Rupturestriker has been going around stripping out citations to production companies (for example: Special:Diff/1087249592, Special:Diff/1087275758). I have been trying to get these articles to say what the sources cited say instead of what individual editors think the article should say (for example: Special:Diff/1087710660). That provoked Special:Diff/1087954498: "ninjarobotpirate you blind piece of shit it’s the copyright of the film read properly before editing. And stop stalking my edits." Which, once again, removes a citation to a reliable source and adds unsourced content. Can someone please block this editor? Speaking as someone who is visually impaired, I find it particularly offensive. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:39, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I blocked for 48 hours, wow that's a very inappropriate comment. The edits removing sources also do look disruptive but I suppose that's a separate matter. Galobtter (pingó mió) 01:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know why the editor is doing this, but it may have something to do with a belief that the content they are adding is official. Official is a variant of WP:THETRUTH, and it trumps anything that reliable sources say. Because reliable sources are not official. Thus you get people ranting about things like copyright statements. If some reliable source says Sony made a film, that's worthless as a source because Sony's name doesn't appear in the film's copyright, or Sony's logo doesn't appear on promotional posters, or whatever. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Personal attacks are still contrary to the fourth pillar of Wikipedia regardless of how we verify production company. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know why the editor is doing this, but it may have something to do with a belief that the content they are adding is official. Official is a variant of WP:THETRUTH, and it trumps anything that reliable sources say. Because reliable sources are not official. Thus you get people ranting about things like copyright statements. If some reliable source says Sony made a film, that's worthless as a source because Sony's name doesn't appear in the film's copyright, or Sony's logo doesn't appear on promotional posters, or whatever. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Disruptive edits to Bamileke people and Tikar people: restoring unreliably sourced WP:FRINGE/edit warring/refusal to engage by User:ForTheCulture1863
User:ForTheCulture1863 has been adding poorly/unreliably sourced fringe material to Tikar people, edit warring/reinstating the material without explanation, and refusing to engage either in edit summaries or Talk. They had removed sourced material from Bamileke people without explanation. I first noticed that they had added fringe material sourced to a non-reliable source along with WP:OR and had also removed sourced material from another section of the article. I removed the first and restored the second with explanations here: [[62]] and here [[63]]. Very soon after, they removed the sourced material I had restored, inaccurately claiming (perhaps as a justification) in their edit summary that they had "added a reference" ([[64]]). As far as I could see, there was no new reference (and a reference would not have explained the removal of reliably sourced material). I reverted their I reinstatement (here [[65]]) explaining the issues and warning them that if they continued to remove sourced material without explanation or discussion I would have to report them.
They same day, I removed a significant amount of WP:FRINGE material (drastically at odds with what is known of groups such as the Tikar from mainstream genetics, linguistics etc.) that the user they had added to Tikar people which they had repeatedly sourced to what looks like a popular news article with no academic references, a non-scholarly website, and to a Wikipedia article (thus citing Wikipedia in Wikipedia), here [[66]] and here [[67]] Their additions also contained WP:OR/personal interpretation. In my edit notes I explained the above issues.
More recently (the next day after the events described above), they reinstated their problematic Additions to Tikar people seeming to have not engaged at all with the explanations in my edit notes: including here: [[68]] and here [[69]]. I reverted their edits, here [[70]], again attempting to explain the problems with them. They then yet again reinstated their/similar edits to the page (here [[71]]), with the same problematic sources and again without explanation, still refusing to engage.
This user seems to show a pattern of ignoring edit summaries and reinstating problematic material without engaging, and so I fear they will continue to edit war regardless of attempts to engage with them.
Any help is appreciated. Thank you, Skllagyook (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am looking at this edit and I just don't really see the problem. This one is thinner than earlier ones, and I haven't looked at those, but right now I am not impressed. Drmies (talk) 00:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Drmies:. Thank you for your reply. The issue seems to be that the claims that the Tikar or Bamileke originate in the Middle East or Egypt are not supported by mainstream scholarship and are sourced to non-scholarly refs with no links to specific sources or scholarly research. One (the NBC article, which is not by a geneticist, linguist, historian, or other relevant expert) is about an African American who has, through dna testing, discovered that he descends from the Tikar people (that much seems to be scientifically supported), but which then goes on to repeat the claim that the Tikar originate in the Middle East but does not cite any scientific/scholarly sources or experts in doing so (it seems to merely refers to "historians" without specifics). The other source is a non-academic web page. Claims that a range of sub-Saharan ethnic groups originated in Egypt or the near east were once popular at one time and often reflect the influence/prestige of Abrahamic religion as well as of the Hamitic hypothesis (but are in most cases, no longer held). As far as I know, the mainstream of contemporary research does not support any such claims regarding the Tikar and related peoples, who genetically and linguistically have no Near Eastern or Egyptian affinities (but instead derive from a large ethnolinguistic family native to and long-established in the area). The disputed material seems to me to give WP:UNDUE and misleading weight to an idea that is no longer generally supported. Skllagyook (talk) 00:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I dig where you're coming from--except that the byline is for Alan Boyle, who apparently is knowledgeable enough to have that kind of job with one of the biggest news organizations in the world. Why are we at ANI, and not on the talk page? Drmies (talk) 01:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Drmies:. Alan Boyle is a science writer but not a scientist nor other expert. It would seem to me that greater qualifications/specialization (in a field such as the genetics, history, archaeology, linguistics, etc. especially of Africa) would be desired to be considered an authority in a subject such as the genetic history of an sub-Saharan ethnic group, especially since the ancient history of sub-Saharan Africa and its peoples is a topic that receives relatively little attention in the western mainstream (even in academia) compared to Eurasia, and is widely subject to many misunderstandings and misconceptions and about which much popular ignorance exists. Regarding why I went to ANI: because the other user seemed completely unwilling to engage and had reinstated their edits (almost unchanged) more than once with no explanation at all, I worried that they would ignore me in the Talk page as well. But perhaps I should have attempted a discussion there first. Skllagyook (talk) 01:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I dig where you're coming from--except that the byline is for Alan Boyle, who apparently is knowledgeable enough to have that kind of job with one of the biggest news organizations in the world. Why are we at ANI, and not on the talk page? Drmies (talk) 01:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Drmies:. Thank you for your reply. The issue seems to be that the claims that the Tikar or Bamileke originate in the Middle East or Egypt are not supported by mainstream scholarship and are sourced to non-scholarly refs with no links to specific sources or scholarly research. One (the NBC article, which is not by a geneticist, linguist, historian, or other relevant expert) is about an African American who has, through dna testing, discovered that he descends from the Tikar people (that much seems to be scientifically supported), but which then goes on to repeat the claim that the Tikar originate in the Middle East but does not cite any scientific/scholarly sources or experts in doing so (it seems to merely refers to "historians" without specifics). The other source is a non-academic web page. Claims that a range of sub-Saharan ethnic groups originated in Egypt or the near east were once popular at one time and often reflect the influence/prestige of Abrahamic religion as well as of the Hamitic hypothesis (but are in most cases, no longer held). As far as I know, the mainstream of contemporary research does not support any such claims regarding the Tikar and related peoples, who genetically and linguistically have no Near Eastern or Egyptian affinities (but instead derive from a large ethnolinguistic family native to and long-established in the area). The disputed material seems to me to give WP:UNDUE and misleading weight to an idea that is no longer generally supported. Skllagyook (talk) 00:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for bringing your concerns forward. However, NBC News is not an unreliable source, nor are the oral traditions of the Tikar people. The other sources I've listed have come to the same conclusion, which is that they cannot say for certain the origins of the Tikar and the Bamileke people. I stated this in the Debate section of the page so that it is clear that some question the proposed origins. I also quote an actual anthropologist who speaks on the importance of respecting and considering oral tradition when researching African ethnic groups. Those sections on the oral tradition that you keep removing are vital to honestly depict the Tikar people and their history. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 01:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Please see my reply to you here [[72]]. The sources you added (other than the NBC source) were not reliable (one was the web page of an organization with no expert citations, and the other was a link to an archive of a Wikipedia page). If you have reliable sources containing the opinions of relevant experts on Tikar origins, they can be cited, as long as your edits state the experts' explicit opinions without personal interpretation (i.e. WP:OR/WP:Synthesis)). The statement of a scholar that the specific origin of a group is uncertain in not support for the theory that they are from a specific place (Arabia or Egypt) if those scholars are not suggesting that. It is only support for the statement that their origins are uncertain (or whatever it is the expert is saying in a reliable source). What us known is that they belong to a branch of the Niger-Congo family that is related to the Bantu branch which has been established in the general area of west central Africa for millennia and show affinities to other cultures of that grouping (and as far as I know, no contemporary experts suggest a Near Eastern of Egyptian origin for them). Your restoring your disputed edit as you just did here [[73]] without WP:CONSENSUS would be edit warring. I request that you undo the reinstatement until a consensus is reached. Thank you Skllagyook (talk) 01:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- The oral tradition supports the theory. The sources support the oral tradition. The sources by scholars in the Debate section conclude that they can't deny the oral tradition and say it's incorrect, because they don't know if it actually is incorrect. They all say that they can't disregard the fact that Tikar elders believe their oral tradition, which says they were nomadic and migrated into the Nile River region. You want a source that says they are 100% from Egypt. I'm telling you that is impossible, due to the fact that no researchers have studied the Tikar since the 70s, and still are uncertain about their origin. This is why I state this as a debate topic on the page. But we shouldn't and can't discount the importance of Tikar oral traditions just because you don't agree with them. Oral tradition is a key component in the cultural anthropological research for African ethnic groups. It's not about personal interpretation. It's about understanding the culture and identities of those you research in our to interpret who they are and what they believe. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 02:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- *in order to
- ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 02:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Do the scholars/any of the scholars you cited in that section state that that the theory of Egyptian (let alone Arabian) origin is credible/can't be discounted? If so, there is it stated and by which source? If their work is no later than the 70s, that is indeed unfortunate, as much work/many new significant discoveries in African history, archaeology, and population genetics have been made since then (and as far as I know, some now outdated ideas about Africa may still have been held by some of the mainstream at the time). Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 02:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- That was an error. I meant to write that they've been researching since the 70s and still are uncertain about their origin. I've founded several scholastic accounts. One article focuses on the Bamum people, who were said to be linked to the Tikar and Bamileke peoples before the groups settled the Western High Plateau in Cameroon. In the article "The Bamum Dynasty and the Influence of Islam in Founban, 1390-Present," researchers Forka Leypey and Matthew Fomine cite the Sudanese origin as credible and determine when the groups more-than-likely separated and became different ethnic groups with different languages. I can cite this on the Tikar page if it will alleviate concerns. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Whatever is being added should/would have to be explicitly supported by a reliable source/sources. If a reliable source (like the one you mentioned above - if it is reliable; I will try to find it online) says what you describe, then it might make sense to add something like: "According to Forka Leypey and Matthew Fomine, some oral traditions claim that the Tikar originated along the Nile. Leypey and Fomine state that this is uncertain but that a root in the Sudan cannot be discounted." (if that is indeed what they say). However, so far, from the article's abstract, they refer to the possibility of a partial "Sudanic" origin for the Bamum people (deriving from a group that "broke away from the Tikar - whether they think that describes the origin of the Tikar generally is unclear). Importantly, "Sudanic" does not necessarily refer to the modern nation of Sudan (on the Nile) but also, especially in the context of African history, can also refer to the Western Sudan (a region in West Africa (which would seem more in line with mainstream views of groups like the Tikar). It would be important to determine which region they are speaking of. (Here is the abstract: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262095862_THE_BAMUM_DYNASTY_AND_THE_INFLUENCE_OF_ISLAM_IN_FOUMBAN_1390-PRESENT) Skllagyook (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, this particular article and others speak about the Tikar/Bamileke origin in Sudan the country. Other articles do as well, with specifics about empires. To alleviate concerns about oral tradition, I'll cite those scholarly sources. Thanks for your insight on the issue. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Having just looked at the full Leypey and Fomine article, though it discusses Islamic influences on the Bamum in more recent times (ca. the 19th century under King Njoya), it actually does not seem to mention or evaluate any theory of Middle Eastern, Egyptian, or Sudanese (from the modern Sudan the country) origin for the Bamum or Tikar (in oral history or otherwise). On page 111 of the article (in the section titled "Geographical location and historical background of the Bamum"), it does state: "..the Tikar are believed by some scholars to have come from Bornu, (a Sudanese Kingdom around the Lake Chad Basin). But that is the only mention I can find of an origin in a "Sudan" (unless you have another quote from the article specifically mentioning Sudan the country). So it does seem to support a possible partial origin for the Bamum and Tikar in the Lake Chad area of the Western Sudan/Sudan (region) (i.e. the "Sudan" in the sense that includes much of the central and west African Savanna zone). The also state that "some" (perhaps not most) scholars support it. But they do not attribute or mention ideas of Tikar origins to Sudan the country (nor Egypt or the Middle East). If you have other sources that do give credence to that idea, please share them. Skllagyook (talk) 04:50, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @GuinanTheListener: Since I now see that you have changed your account name (from ForTheCulture1863), I am pinging you using your new handle. Please see my latest reply above in case you have not already (perhaps due to the account change?). I also, would like to again request that you undo your last reinstatement of your disputed edit to the Tikar page which you did without WO:CONSENSUS before an agreement could be reached or substantive discussion had taken place (after it was reverted by User:Drmies here [[74]] due to its disputed nature). Restoring a disputed edit without consensus during a discussion of that edit is edit warring and is against Wikipedia policy. Thank you, Skllagyook (talk) 13:39, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hey, had to step away to work and didn't see your first reply. I have no issue deleting the content until I have the time to provide all of the credited sources with quotes. This particular article mentions them possibly being the original founders of the Bornu kingdom. According to scholars, the same mystery surrounds the Bornu kingdom due to its very surprising parallels to Sudanese culture and identity. I've studied the works of other researchers who also cite the Sudanese origin because of that as well. But it's not enough to have the info; I have to cite it with due diligence. I hear you. I do. And again, it was not my attention to start an edit war. GuinanTheListener (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, this particular article and others speak about the Tikar/Bamileke origin in Sudan the country. Other articles do as well, with specifics about empires. To alleviate concerns about oral tradition, I'll cite those scholarly sources. Thanks for your insight on the issue. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Whatever is being added should/would have to be explicitly supported by a reliable source/sources. If a reliable source (like the one you mentioned above - if it is reliable; I will try to find it online) says what you describe, then it might make sense to add something like: "According to Forka Leypey and Matthew Fomine, some oral traditions claim that the Tikar originated along the Nile. Leypey and Fomine state that this is uncertain but that a root in the Sudan cannot be discounted." (if that is indeed what they say). However, so far, from the article's abstract, they refer to the possibility of a partial "Sudanic" origin for the Bamum people (deriving from a group that "broke away from the Tikar - whether they think that describes the origin of the Tikar generally is unclear). Importantly, "Sudanic" does not necessarily refer to the modern nation of Sudan (on the Nile) but also, especially in the context of African history, can also refer to the Western Sudan (a region in West Africa (which would seem more in line with mainstream views of groups like the Tikar). It would be important to determine which region they are speaking of. (Here is the abstract: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262095862_THE_BAMUM_DYNASTY_AND_THE_INFLUENCE_OF_ISLAM_IN_FOUMBAN_1390-PRESENT) Skllagyook (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- That was an error. I meant to write that they've been researching since the 70s and still are uncertain about their origin. I've founded several scholastic accounts. One article focuses on the Bamum people, who were said to be linked to the Tikar and Bamileke peoples before the groups settled the Western High Plateau in Cameroon. In the article "The Bamum Dynasty and the Influence of Islam in Founban, 1390-Present," researchers Forka Leypey and Matthew Fomine cite the Sudanese origin as credible and determine when the groups more-than-likely separated and became different ethnic groups with different languages. I can cite this on the Tikar page if it will alleviate concerns. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Do the scholars/any of the scholars you cited in that section state that that the theory of Egyptian (let alone Arabian) origin is credible/can't be discounted? If so, there is it stated and by which source? If their work is no later than the 70s, that is indeed unfortunate, as much work/many new significant discoveries in African history, archaeology, and population genetics have been made since then (and as far as I know, some now outdated ideas about Africa may still have been held by some of the mainstream at the time). Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 02:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- The oral tradition supports the theory. The sources support the oral tradition. The sources by scholars in the Debate section conclude that they can't deny the oral tradition and say it's incorrect, because they don't know if it actually is incorrect. They all say that they can't disregard the fact that Tikar elders believe their oral tradition, which says they were nomadic and migrated into the Nile River region. You want a source that says they are 100% from Egypt. I'm telling you that is impossible, due to the fact that no researchers have studied the Tikar since the 70s, and still are uncertain about their origin. This is why I state this as a debate topic on the page. But we shouldn't and can't discount the importance of Tikar oral traditions just because you don't agree with them. Oral tradition is a key component in the cultural anthropological research for African ethnic groups. It's not about personal interpretation. It's about understanding the culture and identities of those you research in our to interpret who they are and what they believe. ForTheCulture1863 (talk) 02:03, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ForTheCulture1863: Please see my reply to you here [[72]]. The sources you added (other than the NBC source) were not reliable (one was the web page of an organization with no expert citations, and the other was a link to an archive of a Wikipedia page). If you have reliable sources containing the opinions of relevant experts on Tikar origins, they can be cited, as long as your edits state the experts' explicit opinions without personal interpretation (i.e. WP:OR/WP:Synthesis)). The statement of a scholar that the specific origin of a group is uncertain in not support for the theory that they are from a specific place (Arabia or Egypt) if those scholars are not suggesting that. It is only support for the statement that their origins are uncertain (or whatever it is the expert is saying in a reliable source). What us known is that they belong to a branch of the Niger-Congo family that is related to the Bantu branch which has been established in the general area of west central Africa for millennia and show affinities to other cultures of that grouping (and as far as I know, no contemporary experts suggest a Near Eastern of Egyptian origin for them). Your restoring your disputed edit as you just did here [[73]] without WP:CONSENSUS would be edit warring. I request that you undo the reinstatement until a consensus is reached. Thank you Skllagyook (talk) 01:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
GuinanTheListener, you are not listening. If you again restore this content, which is being legitimately challenged, I will be happy to block you for edit warring, even though I am not completely convinced of the content's inappropriate nature to the extent that Skllagyook is--but this edit warring is disruptive. I still think all of this should be happening on the talk page, by the way, and not here, but that's a separate matter. I hope that Skllagyook will ferry some of this over to the article talk page. Drmies (talk) 14:32, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am listening, and I've read everything stated to understand their opposing prospective, rather than to simply be combative. I also have not made any edits since Skllagyook and I began the discussion on the challenge and brought the edit warring policy to my attention.
- And I agree that more citations are needed in the article in the Origin section. I will remove the content until I gather all of the legitimate sources that cite the claim as credible. GuinanTheListener (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Nwonwu Uchechukwu P continued use of mirrored sites as refs
Nwonwu Uchechukwu P (talk · contribs) has been replacing {{cn}} tags on various articles with references to poor quality sources, most of which are uncredited mirrors of the relevant WP page. 3 different users (including myself) have warned them against this / reverted their edits. All of the edit summaries have some variation of added citation # 1lib1ref #AfLibWk #IWUG
so I don't know if they are using a tool to do this, or doing it as part of an organised process. Spike 'em (talk) 09:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Spike 'em The edits are related to meta:The Wikipedia Library/1Lib1Ref. 192.76.8.94 (talk) 09:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have blocked the account. However, we really need to somehow put an end to this well-intentioned but misconceived "campaign", which does a considerable amount of harm. JBW (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JBW We could set up an edit filter to tag or rate limit the edits, like we did with the #WPWP campaign a few months ago? Even just having them tagged would make it much easier to clean up afterwards. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 11:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's a good idea, which I hadn't thought of. I should think it would be a very easy edit filter to create, as the edits are specifically tagged in their edit summaries. If someone who is able to create edit filters is willing to do it, that will be helpful. (I still think that would be a poor second best to the people responsible for the campaign accepting that they have made a mistake, and closing it down, though.) JBW (talk) 12:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JBWThere's already general purpose contest tracking filter at Special:AbuseFilter/1073. To get it to tag edits related to this contest you would just need add the hashtag to the hashtag string in the first line, i.e change
hashtag := '#WPWP|#W4HR';
tohashtag := '#WPWP|#W4HR|#1LIB1REF';
. Special:AbuseFilter/1158 is the throttle to limit the rate of contest edits for #wpwp, a duplicate with a different hashtag could be made for this contest if it gets out of hand. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 13:32, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Done per a request from EpicPupper. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 01:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JBWThere's already general purpose contest tracking filter at Special:AbuseFilter/1073. To get it to tag edits related to this contest you would just need add the hashtag to the hashtag string in the first line, i.e change
- That's a good idea, which I hadn't thought of. I should think it would be a very easy edit filter to create, as the edits are specifically tagged in their edit summaries. If someone who is able to create edit filters is willing to do it, that will be helpful. (I still think that would be a poor second best to the people responsible for the campaign accepting that they have made a mistake, and closing it down, though.) JBW (talk) 12:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JBW We could set up an edit filter to tag or rate limit the edits, like we did with the #WPWP campaign a few months ago? Even just having them tagged would make it much easier to clean up afterwards. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 11:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Nzechimere (talk · contribs) is doing the same sort of thing. Reminds me of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive335##WPWP #WPWPARK - MrOllie (talk) 13:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- 1Lib1Ref had been going for several years. AfLibWk is a new one, I think, but see here for more details. I think we need to accept that competitions like this are going to become more and more common and that there is a need to encourage greater communication with/from organisers including how the en.wp community will deal with poor edits made under a competitions banner. Nthep (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Nzechimere blocked one week --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Could this be related to the above #User:Palow s coba11 / another unresponsive mobile editor? Also similar issues there too. I doubt sockpuppetry is involved, but both seem to be editing to achieve the same objective, without understanding how to do so properly. Mako001 (C) (T) 🇺🇦 03:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Nzechimere blocked one week --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- 1Lib1Ref had been going for several years. AfLibWk is a new one, I think, but see here for more details. I think we need to accept that competitions like this are going to become more and more common and that there is a need to encourage greater communication with/from organisers including how the en.wp community will deal with poor edits made under a competitions banner. Nthep (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
About User:Jk deenu
A new user (Jk deenu) keep adding shows on his own pattern, he is keep re-editing and adding, I requested him to not add but he didn't listen. He is keep editing and re-adding after removing in some pages, the pages are:
- List of programmes broadcast by Hungama TV
- List of programmes broadcast by Super Hungama
- List of programmes broadcast by Disney Channel (Indian TV channel)
- List of programmes broadcast by Nickelodeon (India)
- List of programmes broadcast by Nickelodeon Sonic
- List of programmes broadcast by Cartoon Network (India)
- List of programmes broadcast by Pogo
- List of programmes broadcast by Sony YAY!
- List of programmes broadcast by Discovery Kids (Indian TV channel)
Sorry for poor English, kindly do something Yuu Haru Angelo (talk) 10:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Blocked by Bbb23. A sock apparently. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Making A Big Deal Over Language Translations
User:Hotwiki recently made a big deal over something small, which is translating Filipino titles into English. He considered some of my translation wrong even if they're correct. I even gave him a mini lecture about a certain Filipino-English translation in my talk page. But, he dismissed them as if they're disruptive. I never ever translate anything just because it sounds better. It does makes more sense, but it's still a direct translation. There was nothing personal with my edits since they're never disruptive. My edits are done in good faith. It's that he's so judgmental over them. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 10:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- First of all, you should have notified me about this report in my talk page. Second, if I made a big deal out of it, then you also made a big deal about it reverting it your preference more than once. If you are gonna "translate" a Tagalog word into English language,you should use the correct translation and not twist/alter the wording/order of words to your preference.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also "giving me a mini lecture" is highly a dismissive behavior towards your fellow editors. As I warned you in your talk page, refrain from resorting to personal attacks.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- What I meant is to give an example on a certain translation. Translations don't necessarily need to be literally direct. Whether the order is altered or not, it's still a direct translation no matter what. And what I said is never a personal attack. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- For the nth time, the translation I did is not (and will never be) based on my preference. Translations don't really need to be exactly direct. Whether the order is twisted or not, it's still a direct translation no matter what. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:39, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also "giving me a mini lecture" is highly a dismissive behavior towards your fellow editors. As I warned you in your talk page, refrain from resorting to personal attacks.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- First of all, you should have notified me about this report in my talk page. Second, if I made a big deal out of it, then you also made a big deal about it reverting it your preference more than once. If you are gonna "translate" a Tagalog word into English language,you should use the correct translation and not twist/alter the wording/order of words to your preference.TheHotwiki (talk) 11:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a source for your translations? You are not necessarily a reliable source, but it usually should be fine. Make sure you're following WP:TRANSCRIPTION. Canterbury Tail talk 11:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- May I add, can I bring up User:Superastig's habit of persistent usage of Facebook as a reference. I've told the user to use third party references[75]. However to this day, the user has been using facebook links as references[76][77][78][79][80] Is there something that can be done with this issue?TheHotwiki (talk) 12:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Superastig: do you have something to say about you using facebook links as a reference to your edits? I never got a response in your talk page.TheHotwiki (talk) 13:34, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Canterbury Tail:, the bad translation is "Run" which is in Tagalog means "Takbo". The original title is listed as "Tumakbo Ka" which is "You Run" in English. A quick Google translation search proves this.[81]TheHotwiki (talk) 12:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I search them on Google. Sometimes, I go beyond Google translate. And they give me a number of English translations, not just one. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- And what did you get if you google the English translation of "Tumakbo Ka"? It definitely wasn't "Run" when I googled it. It is "You Run". See the difference?TheHotwiki (talk) 12:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't usually rely on Google Translate when translating a phrase or sentence. Sorry. Tumakbo ka means telling a certain person to run. Therefore, whether there's ka or not, it's still run. So, be it. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Which is more reliable, Google translation or your opinion? Google translation proves that your translation wasn't right and accurate.TheHotwiki (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Neither of them. Google Translate doesn't always give the direct translation. I only use it when it comes to certain words, not phrases or sentences. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am here to tell that Google translation of TWO Tagalog words is accurate. Are you insinuating that Google translation is wrong yet, we should use your "translations".TheHotwiki (talk) 13:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Neither of them. Google Translate doesn't always give the direct translation. I only use it when it comes to certain words, not phrases or sentences. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Which is more reliable, Google translation or your opinion? Google translation proves that your translation wasn't right and accurate.TheHotwiki (talk) 12:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't usually rely on Google Translate when translating a phrase or sentence. Sorry. Tumakbo ka means telling a certain person to run. Therefore, whether there's ka or not, it's still run. So, be it. ASTIG️🙃 (ICE-T • ICE CUBE) 12:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- And what did you get if you google the English translation of "Tumakbo Ka"? It definitely wasn't "Run" when I googled it. It is "You Run". See the difference?TheHotwiki (talk) 12:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- May I add, can I bring up User:Superastig's habit of persistent usage of Facebook as a reference. I've told the user to use third party references[75]. However to this day, the user has been using facebook links as references[76][77][78][79][80] Is there something that can be done with this issue?TheHotwiki (talk) 12:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- 'Tumakbo ka!' is (slightly impolite) run! (2sg. imperative), no? Why not ask @Austronesier:? Tewdar 14:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I changed it because "First Lady you run" is not an accurate translation and does not make sense to an English speaker. Tewdar 15:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- (bystander comment) Does either of you actually speak Tagalog? Fluently? If so that person's translation is preferred to Google Translate, which is very helpful, but can be wrong, with some languages more than others. I do not speak Tagalog, at all, and can't opine on the translation, or Google's Translate's accuracy with respect to Tagalog. I do however translate from other languages into English at times, and Google Translate is actually discouraged unless no speaker of that language is available. If you both speak Tagalog, and disagree about the proper translation, that is another matter, which will be taken much more seriously if you stop insulting each other. This forum is for behavior issues but hopefully my input on translation policies is helpful. If it doesn't resolve the matter, then perhaps someone else has a suggestion. I am thinking Dispute Resolution, but it isn't for me to say. Elinruby (talk) 15:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- There you go. Ask somebody who knows that language. Elinruby (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- They both know the language I think, but they disagree about the best translation of the 2sg. imperative into English. Alas, I am but a beginner in this lovely language, but I am reasonably confident that Tumakbo ka is being used as a 2nd person singular imperative of 'run' here. Thus, "First Lady, Tumakbo Ka" is most naturally translated into English as "Run, First Lady!" (or "First Lady, Run!") But, hopefully Austronesier will be along in a bit to tell me if I'm right or a complete plonker. Tewdar 15:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- (nod) I just wanted to address the part about Google Translate being the arbiter of correct translation. I see a lot of horrible machine translations, although the newer ones tend to be a little better. Anyway, glad you were here, fading back into the wallpaper now. Elinruby (talk) 16:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- They both know the language I think, but they disagree about the best translation of the 2sg. imperative into English. Alas, I am but a beginner in this lovely language, but I am reasonably confident that Tumakbo ka is being used as a 2nd person singular imperative of 'run' here. Thus, "First Lady, Tumakbo Ka" is most naturally translated into English as "Run, First Lady!" (or "First Lady, Run!") But, hopefully Austronesier will be along in a bit to tell me if I'm right or a complete plonker. Tewdar 15:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- There you go. Ask somebody who knows that language. Elinruby (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- (bystander comment) Does either of you actually speak Tagalog? Fluently? If so that person's translation is preferred to Google Translate, which is very helpful, but can be wrong, with some languages more than others. I do not speak Tagalog, at all, and can't opine on the translation, or Google's Translate's accuracy with respect to Tagalog. I do however translate from other languages into English at times, and Google Translate is actually discouraged unless no speaker of that language is available. If you both speak Tagalog, and disagree about the proper translation, that is another matter, which will be taken much more seriously if you stop insulting each other. This forum is for behavior issues but hopefully my input on translation policies is helpful. If it doesn't resolve the matter, then perhaps someone else has a suggestion. I am thinking Dispute Resolution, but it isn't for me to say. Elinruby (talk) 15:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I changed it because "First Lady you run" is not an accurate translation and does not make sense to an English speaker. Tewdar 15:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
User:Tewdar, your Tagalog is clearly better than my Cornish :) Folks, Google Translate fails. Please, please, never rely on it! "Tumakbo ka." means "you ran", "Tumakbo ka!" means "Run!" with a singular addressee in non-honorific speech. It never means "you run" in a simple present statement. The pronoun is obligatory in imperative clauses, but this doesn't mean we have to copy Tagalog syntax rules into English. –Austronesier (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Salamat! So, "First Lady, Tumakbo Ka" is best translated as "First Lady, Run", (imperative) yes? Given the context I think it more likely than "First Lady, you ran." Tewdar 18:19, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, oops, it's this article (episode 57) Tewdar 18:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Tewdar: Yeah, it's First Lady, Run! –Austronesier (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Sige. Salamat ho! Tewdar 19:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Tewdar: Yeah, it's First Lady, Run! –Austronesier (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, oops, it's this article (episode 57) Tewdar 18:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- A little common sense is in order here. In English, there is no question that we would phrase the imperative without the pronoun. I don't know a word of Tagalog, but I know that in English, a title in which the subject is identified and then implored to do something would read, First Lady, Run!, and our rules should facilitate conveying exactly that to our readers. I would suggest that any editor pushing to insert a "You" there be given a stern disapproving gaze. BD2412 T 19:25, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's all fixed now, someone go ahead and close this, there probably won't be any more trouble about that now. 👍 Tewdar 19:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
TPA of 180.253.44.41
Could the TPA of this IP please be revoked? They are repeatedly making use of their talk page access for things it's not meant to be used for. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 14:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done by PhilKnight. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 15:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
User:108.48.147.41 on Funland (Rehoboth Beach, Delaware)
Articles: Funland (Rehoboth Beach, Delaware) & Talk:Funland (Rehoboth Beach, Delaware)
Main account:
108.48.147.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Sub accounts:
2600:1003:B02C:BDAA:7C55:4EA7:9D7B:B438 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
2600:1003:B00C:94D7:94B3:B000:8255:A350 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I regrettably make this report to the noticeboard as I see no progression in the discussion of the article aforementioned or change in behavior from the user. Although this matter is not technically urgent to the article in question (as it is temporarily locked), I have no doubt content will be reverted once the article will be unlocked. I want to see how a third party, or administrator, wants to proceed given the circumstances.
The IP was blocked once for edit warring, found here. After the article was unlocked, the IP restored the version not-agreed upon and did not follow advice from the article's talk page given by me and several users:
After such, the talk was moved back to the article's talk page and IP's talk page to come to an understanding, which led to IP stating: Blocking does nothing as there are plenty of ways around it. Keeping page protected forever is not a smart option either. Keep in mind, we can see whenever protected expires so each time it ends, it WILL be restored if needed.
via IP's talk page (quote source included in both diff links).
In an effort to rebuild consensus, another thread was started to discuss the conflict of interest that was inadvertently disclosed by the IP and sources found within the article that is not reliable. This resulted in little consensus building and uncivil language being used from the IP. I agree with other editors that the language was unacceptable, with quips such as:
- "As for your request for me to stop making sure the page is correct, the only way that threat will be retracted is if the page no longer exists...As for if its protected, I will be keeping a close eye on protection expiration and making corrections as soon as protection expires." – 108.48.147.41 (talk) 07:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "You and other editors have said, the writing isn't encyclopedic. OK, that's fine, rather than just revert and remove the stuff, go through it and change it to sound encyclopedic..." – 108.48.147.41 (talk) 10:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "The edit war, or disrupting the encyclopedia as you people are calling it, is how you look at it. I look at it as just trying to protect the article and make sure nothing important is missing, not an edit war or disruption. If we're going based on you people's logic though with calling it an edit war, then of course the war wages on as the only way to end a war is with a treaty, and we've not reached that, at least not to this point, so it's inevitable, that the war must wage on." – 108.48.147.41 (talk) 10:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "I do hope we come to a resolution, but if not, then I guess we're in for an indefinite edit war." – 108.48.147.41 (talk) 10:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- "...however, don’t think you guys are able to judge what’s important bout Funland, as you don’t know enough bout the park. Nothing wrong with that, you guys just aren’t educated enough on it. The reason the edit war would be indefinite is because people always say, you gotta fight for what’s right, and that’s all I’m doing, fighting for what’s right." – 2600:1003:B00C:94D7:94B3:B000:8255:A350 (talk) 02:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- "As for it not sounding encyclopedic, I’ve said this multiple times now, but I’ll say it again, I’m not saying don’t edit the article, I’m just saying, if you do, mainly focus on grammatical errors like bad wording, extra words, typos, etc." – 2600:1003:B00C:94D7:94B3:B000:8255:A350 (talk) 02:07, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Seeing this, I took to the IP's talk page to address the language. With reinforcing comments such as:
Honestly though, I'm not concerned about making potential enemies with other editors, my goal is to make the Funland gets the respect and credit its earned and deserves. So, if in order to accomplish that goal, I have to make enemies with other editors, and be the last man standing, I'm cool with that. I'm aware this could go on indefinitely, but i'm in this for the long haul. I know it's not gonna be anytime soon, but eventually I'm confident that the correct version of the article will stand. Even if that means no other editor is even paying attention to the page.
– 108.48.147.41 (talk) 02:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
It seems simple, they are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia with other editors. Adog (Talk・Cont) 15:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Because of the repeated promises to resume the disruptive editing as soon as the semi-protection expires, I have extended the semi-protection of Funland (Rehoboth Beach, Delaware) to indefinite. And I have blocked the IP for three months. Cullen328 (talk) 16:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- The description of edit war. SoyokoAnis - talk | PLEASE PING 16:21, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. --*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 22:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Grudziądz and User:Merangs
Hello. I am working on an article for Graudenz for the Central and Eastern Europe contest. I am a professional genealogist who specializes in Prussian research and specifically the city of Graudenz. Last night, I did many edits and improved headings, etc. I woke up to see many of my edits had been undone by Merangs.
Normally, this is fine as I am not perfect. However, the comment on the revert was "something doesn't seem right". There was no explanation as to why the lines were deleted. A sourced/citated fact was deleted by Merangs. That fact was already in the Wikipedia article, I had just moved it to the introduction. There was no reason for it to be deleted. I created a heading for it and moved it back this morning.
I went to leave a comment on Merangs talk page. That's when I noticed several other edits have been having the same problem with Merangs deleting and reverting their articles and citations without explaination or accountability or spirit of working together. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Merangs
Other's having the same issue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Merangs#Article_of_Vilnius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Merangs#Really,
Thank you for your assistance. TheTypingKat (talk) 18:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hi TheTypingKat. I've created a separate heading for your report. I see Merangs did give reason in their edit summaries. It looks like this is a content issue, have you tried starting a discussion on the articles ntalk page? - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I will double check that I posted to the talk page for that article. I posted to his talk page. I will await a reply. TheTypingKat (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I'm rather surprised that a self-proclaimed "professional genealogist" refers to a city that has been known as "Grudziądz" for over a century as "Graudenz". Just use the [expletive deleted] talk page if you think the issue needs discussing. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:00, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I work in the 18th and 19th century so I do reference it has Graudenz. Thanks for the non-helpful comment. I'm new to Wiki so thanks for the expletive comment. TheTypingKat (talk) 20:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's people like you who make Wikipedia a negative place. TheTypingKat (talk) 20:10, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am surprised that this issue made its way to the incidents board, but let me be clear that [some] content added by @TheTypingKat: was poorly written (pred. punctuation) or structured, especially the lead section. Secondly, by analysing the recent revisions, I did not see any input of sources or references by user TheTypingKat (unless I have omitted one by mistake; also Britannica is not a recommended source). I did not revert all of the edits and made some changes for improvement, however, it seems this was ignored. I also suggest the user refrains from making such comments as above, because one can assume bad faith. Stating "help reporting Merangs who is mass deleting and reverting articles" to user Deutschland1871 is unacceptable. Merangs (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
(Possible) WIKIHOUNDING from user
I've been on Wikipedia since Feb of this year, since March it appears that I'm being consistently being WP:HOUNDed by User:MehmoodS. Some examples of this:[83] where he removed everything I added to the page (added intermittently over a period of 3 weeks), content that was sourced by university scholars. He removed it under the edit summary "Rv to Last stable version, Vandalism.caused by blocked sock accounts", and also did the same to Ranjit Singh's page [84] with the same edit summary. It seems highly unlikely that was an accidental removal of the content I added.
Later on, reverting an edit I made to the article "Siege of Sirhind" that was sourced to a 1993 Cambridge University Press [85]. Later on RSN he was told that editors must comply with WP:BRD and that him reverting was not acceptable. After that, he added a source published by Singh Bros, and put the title and publisher in the citation as The New Cambridge History of India and the publisher as Cambridge University [86]. On the Battle of Samana, he tried to add content that was written by someone who had zero credentials in history or academics, and told ME to go to RSN for a source that HE wanted to add. [87]. He was also told on RSN that the source was not RS.
On Banda Singh Bahadur's page, he removed a page from the inline citation I added [88], which was unacceptable as both pages of the book had relevant content and you're allowed to add more than 2 pages into a citation, hence why it says "Page(s)" when you add the information for a source. When I added it back, he made an edit with this edit summary: "Cite url was for page 59 so removed 256 and kept but if information exists on 256, it can be readded.". See [89], also note he didn't remove the page this time (ostensibly did that to get the last word).
Following me to the TeaHouse: [90] and [91]
When a content dispute occurred later on the Siege of Sirhind page, before engaging in the discussion on the talk page [92], he posted this message to an admin's talk page "This is why I think an admin should step in to resolve this issue as Kamhiri still disagrees and continues to revert." despite the fact that I had posted on the talk page and he was told multiple times to comply with BRD and that involving admins or 3rd editors is the last thing to do.[93] under the edit summary "Need admin involvement", which seems to me seems like an intimidatory way to get an upper hand in a content dispute.
Also yesterday, when I updated some pages with a newly published peer reviewed source, he reverted them [94] without doing due research on the source (later reinstated hwoever).
All this and much more (including editing pages right after I've edited or updated them even when he's never edited them before or they're obscure pages unlikely to be on his watchlist, something that has happened countless times) seems to me that this user is trying to cause me distress as per the definition laid out in WP:HOUND — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamhiri (talk • contribs) 18:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Baseless accusations. Multiple times I have made it clear to this user that I have numerous pages from Maratha Empire, Mysore Empire, Sikh Empire, religions under my watch list to prevent from vandalism and disruptive editing but this user still continues to makes baseless accusation especially due to his edits being questioned or reverted without reaching a consensus. I even tried to involve admin for assistance (get advice on how to best resolve dispute) regarding dispute on article Siege of Sirhind and requested following message on admin's RegentsPark talk page [95] and user Kamhiri (talk about hounding), follows me to admin's talk page and proceeds with his accusation [96] and he has repeated same baseless accusation here. When adding citation, user doesn't follow citation template and multiple times I had to fix the problems, such as incorrect page numbers, missing publisher information, sometimes making it difficult to find the exact quote to verify the information. But all these issues could be resolved on a talk page but the user fails to do so. Even regarding Siege of Sirhind, after 3 edits, user finally decides to use talk page but before even trying to reach consensus, he goes on to make 4th edit. And even on Siege of Sirhind talk page, you can see that I am willing to work with him as long as justified resolution is put forth to resolve dispute. My sense is that the articles that this user likes to make edits to, he prefers it the way he wants and doesn't like to be questioned. MehmoodS (talk) 19:25, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please, I have always went to the talk page whenever a content dispute ensued, it is you who ignored BRD despite being told numerous times of it, and you that involved an admin before even engaging in the talk page.
- Admins please note this blatant lie: " When adding citation, user doesn't follow citation template and multiple times I had to fix the problems, such as incorrect page numbers, missing publisher information, sometimes making it difficult to find the exact quote to verify the information." I would ask MehmoodS to provide diffs proving this, I use the automatic function every single time I add sources so the publisher, isbn, author name etc is automatically provided. I double check the information and then manually add the page number as that is the only parameter excluded by the automatic function. I also don't mind being questioned, I just don't like dealing with frivolous, confrontational edits time and time again and having it made obvious that I'm being followed. Kamhiri (talk) 19:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have looked at the first two examples above and see that neither talk page has any discussion about the disputed edits. Just sort out the content issues there, without edit-warring by readding the disputed content to the articles, before coming to this page. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger, there is currently no content dispute happening between us, the first two examples happened 2 months back and have already been re-added, however I posted here about the consistent confrontational edits done by MehmoodS done for no overridingly constructive reason, which to me appears to be done to cause me distress. Kamhiri (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not prepared to look into this any further if you let the blatant lie stand that you always went to the talk page about content disputes and that someone else violated WP:BRD. In those two cases it was clearly you who violated WP:BRD by not starting a talk page discussion. They are the first two cases that you provided, and you lied about both of them. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger, there was no need to go the talk page of the article in those first two cases (which I'm assuming you're referring to), it was resolved after I reverted the edit, after which no reverts occurred from Mehmood. There was simply no reason to go the talk page there. Are you referring to the first two diffs or something else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamhiri (talk • contribs)
- Phil, no part of dispute resolution involves looking at part of the complaint and then accusing the complainant of lying. This is not helping anything. (I will look more into the substance of this later, it seems like a resolvable dispute.) Levivich 20:29, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- No worries Phil, I understand that your reaction may have been in part because of the lack of mention of the issue being resolved in my original report, I will also admit that I made a revert against my better judgment in Siege of Sirhind [97], however I felt that Mehmood going and asking an admin to step in and resolve the issue before even engaging in the discussion on the talk page [98], felt TO ME like an unfair and unnecessary way to engage in a content dispute. Kamhiri (talk) 20:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not prepared to look into this any further if you let the blatant lie stand that you always went to the talk page about content disputes and that someone else violated WP:BRD. In those two cases it was clearly you who violated WP:BRD by not starting a talk page discussion. They are the first two cases that you provided, and you lied about both of them. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Phil Bridger, there is currently no content dispute happening between us, the first two examples happened 2 months back and have already been re-added, however I posted here about the consistent confrontational edits done by MehmoodS done for no overridingly constructive reason, which to me appears to be done to cause me distress. Kamhiri (talk) 19:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- To avoid any confusion: I'm not an administrator, just a regular editor. What struck me most is that I read Talk:Siege of Sirhind and saw that Kamhiri (K) and MehmoodS (M) have been editing that article together since March, have had a number of content disputes, but have both been engaging in what seems to me to be ordinary, productive discussion on the talk page of that article. So how could this productive, collaborative relationship between two editors boil over to the point where M is complaining about K to an admin, and K has filed this ANI against M? It seems to me to be some mutual misunderstanding and also some mutual frustration that is understandable between two people who've been debating content issues for a couple of months. Some specifics:
- M's March 3 reverts of K at Ranjit Singh and Sikh Empire: We can see in the history of the Ranjit Singh article that two accounts, blocked for sockpuppetry, had been editing that article and the Sikh Empire article, and M reverted to the version before those sock's edits. This reversion also reverted some intervening edits by K. M's edit summary seems a bit harsh--technically, what they were reverting wasn't vandalism (see WP:NOTVAND) but they were disruptive for various other reasons. And, at that point in time, K had less than 50 edits. It's very understandable that M would have thought, at that point, that all the new accounts editing those articles were the same socks. In any event, K reinstated (good) versions, which M didn't re-revert. And to emphasize the point, on March 6 at Ranjit Singh, another editor reverted to the pre-sock edits, before self-reverting and reinstating the changes: that just shows how common this sort of thing is. Don't take these March reverts personally, K, it seems those had more to do with the sock than with you.
- April 18 at Battle of Samana: it's true, M made a bold edit, K reverted it, and M reinstated it, which M should not have done, per WP:BRD. After another round of revert/reinstate, K reverted it again, and M did not reinstate it. So while M was wrong to reinstate their bold edit, the whole thing was over and done on April 18.
- M's April 20 edit at Seige of Sirhind did in fact incorrectly have Cambridge University Press as the publisher for a book that was actually published by Singh Bros., but just look at that diff, and it's plain that this was a simple copy/paste error. There are two sources added: one is from Cambridge, the second is from Singh but uses the same publisher and date as the first. This is an obvious "innocent mistake". (I've made copy/paste mistakes a hundred times, who hasn't?)
- April 25 at Banda Singh Bahadur: Yes, M removed a page number in this edit, but the edit summary was "citation template fix" and the rest of the edit did make other fixes to the citation template. It's easy to WP:AGF that M legitimately thought that the citation was only supposed to be to one page, and not two pages, because the URL pointed to one page. That was a mistake, but it's an understandable mistake. When K reinstated the page number, M did not revert again (unlike a week prior at Battle of Samana, so that shows progress right there). This edit by M isn't to get the last word, it was a "dummy edit" (see Help:Dummy edit) to explain the reason for the revert. That M didn't remove the page number again and instead explained the reason for their earlier removal is a good thing, not a bad thing.
- M following K to the Teahouse: Well, we can see from the archives that M had posted to the Teahouse in March and April. Specifically, on April 19. So it's not surprising that M saw K's message on April 26, or the second one on May 3. This isn't M "following" K to the Teahouse, this is M noticing that K posted to a page that M had also recently posted to.
- M posting on an admin's talk page about K: on one hand, complaining to an admin about another editor, without even pinging the other editor to let them know about it, is not something anybody approves of. It can be seen as going behind someone's back to get them in trouble with an admin. On the other hand, when an editor gets frustrated, it's perfectly normal for them to reach out to another, more experienced editor for help, and often that more experienced editor will be an admin. We don't want to discourage editors asking each other for help when they're frustrated. Asking for help is a lot better than edit warring!
- Yesterday at Battle of Chappar Chiri: Here, K made the bold edit, adding a new source; M reverted; and K re-instated it. M did not re-revert. This is exactly what happened on April 18 at Battle of Samana, but in reverse.
- K's allegation in this ANI thread that M is "editing pages right after I've edited or updated them even when he's never edited them before or they're obscure pages unlikely to be on his watchlist, something that has happened countless times": K, I would check again. In my review, this is not true. In fact, if anything, the opposite is true. For example, at Battle of Chappar Chiri, you're the one who edited the page, which you'd never edited before, within one day of Mehmood editing it.
- Bottom line: it's not hounding. K is a new editor, editing in a specialized topic area in which M is also a regular editor. It's to be expected that M will edit after K because many articles will be on M's watchlist. It is also expected that K will edit after M because K is a new editor working their way through a topic area. I'll say again: both editors are clearly capable of serious and productive collaboration, as evidenced by the discussions at Talk:Siege of Sirhind that have been going on even while they've been edit warring (a little bit) with each other at other articles. I think both editors are frustrated with each other, and there have been some mutual misunderstandings and a little bit of back-and-forth, give-and-take type stuff, but overall, they're both discussing content disputes on the talk pages, using dispute resolution methods like RSN in the proper way, and otherwise working together to build an encyclopedia. I hope this review will give both M and K some perspective on the situation. My advice: remind yourselves to WP:AGF a bit more, be extra nice to each other, just remember that neither of you is "the bad guy", you're just two people working in the same topic area with inevitable disagreements about sources, etc., but you both know how to work through those disagreements. I hope you can re-focus on the positive aspects of your editing together over the past few months and leave any bad feelings in the past. Cheers, Levivich 02:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Levivich, thank you for your comment, I definitely agree with much of your analysis, particularly regarding the dummy edit (thank you for informing me about that) and the inevitable overlap of the pages we edit to; certainly I do not expect him being forbidden to edit a page I have edited or vice versa. However, I respectfully disagree with the TeaHouse issue, it seems much more likely (at least to me) some following was involved rather than constant attentiveness to discussions taking place on the TeaHouse. I also believe that some form of discussion should occur on the talk page before inviting uninvolved editors or asking help from admins (unless overt vandalism is taking place); and the dispute resolution page on Wikipedia states that "Talk page discussion is a prerequisite to almost all of Wikipedia's venues of higher dispute resolution. If you wish at any time to request a Third Opinion (3O), use the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard (DRN), or open a request for arbitration, you will be expected to show there has been talk page discussion of the dispute."- [99]. I still believe some of the user's conduct was a bit unwarranted. But other than that I very much appreciate your comment and hard work, duly noted, and will be taken into consideration and applied. Thanks once again. Kamhiri (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Levivich. Regarding notifying admin, you will notice from Siege of Sirhind talk page, during initial discussion, before consensus was reached, user reverts the changes and then mentions that he will accept the opinion of a 3rd user in this regard [100] Therefore, admin was contacted to get assistance and advice on resolving the dispute. But then Kamhiri came up with a proposal and the dispute was resolved. If this approach would have been taken in first place, knowing well that another editor has been contributing to same article, there would have been no issue. But all well that ends well.MehmoodS (talk) 03:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please note that MehmoodS had posted the message on the admin's page before engaging in the discussion on the talk page, to which I responded by stating on the talk page that I will accept the 3rd editor (admin involved)'s opinion. The reason for that was because your message on the admin's page had (at that time) made any discussion on the talk page redundant as I was expecting the admin's intervention shortly after. Only after the admin's delay in responding did I move ahead with the discussion on the talk page. This was already explained on RP's talk page. Please also note that MehmoodS also claimed that he has to repeatedly fix up after my work because I add incorrect citation templates, a claim he has not provided any proof or diffs for. Kamhiri (talk) 03:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Here are some details. Sometimes getting an advice isn't harmful in resolving dispute as you could be directed to right platform if needed. Apologize if there was an oversight earlier but here are details (this dispute has been resolved):
00:07, 14 May 2022 I mention - get 3rd opinion or if you would like have admin involved. No need for edit warring. 00:18, 14 May 2022 - I contacted admin for assistance in resolving dispute after user's 3rd edit. 00:23, 14 May 2022 - I respond to Kamhiri's discussion on talk page. (Didn't let me know or notified of any discussion at this time on talk page but I noticed it when trying to actually start one) 00:26, 14 May 2022 - I let admin know that we are discussing dispute on article's talk page. (Indication that we are trying to work on it so his assistance won't be needed) 00:34, 14 May 2022 - Kamhiri reverts without consensus with description of revert - no specific onus on me to seek WP:DR, you can as well. Although we are supposed to go by WP:BRD which you were also told on the RSN. I started a discussion on the talk page; please dont edit war 00:41, 14 May 2022 - I let admin know that user Kamhiri continued to revert while the discussion was in progress. 01:01, 14 May 2022 Kamhiri mentions in talk page - "I will accept the opinion of a third user in this regards."MehmoodS (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
IP and New Account Protection at Black Sun (symbol) and IP making five reverts in the past few hours
Can we get Black Sun (symbol) locked from IP and new account editors? (Done) This article is constantly getting hit with blanking and malicious editing—including new users sometimes sneaking in messages—from drive-by IPs in connection to the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine. At this point, it's out of control and the article could use protection from constantly seeing sections blanked. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Additionally, an IP editor there has now made five reverts in the past few hours, most of them consisting of simple blanking: Note that this IP editor has made five reverts on this page over the past few hours: [101], [102], [103], [104], [105]] :bloodofox: (talk) 20:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- protected, but you need to add that info back in now.
DavidWittas block evasion continuing
In reference to this past thread, the most-prolific IP resumed disrupting almost immediately upon expiration of a one-month block - nearly 200 edits already. Much of this is self-reverted à la one of the sockpuppet accounts, but some of it isn't (e.g [106] and [107]). Pinging @Girth Summit:, as you blocked the previous accounts. --Sable232 (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Use of NPOV template to remove article’s neutral point of view
Blockhaj revived a three month old discussion to once again attempt to platform and validate the racist backlash against The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. Consensus was already reached, nothing had changed since February, but keeps fighting to put the NPOV template on the page to seek a new consensus. They are not listening to what’s been said, and I feel their attempts at neutrality are to treat the racism as genuine good-faith criticism--CreecregofLife (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sry for late answer. The discussion in question was never properly finished and a proper consensus was never reached. It was honestly just a big controversial mess. Besides the discussion was reopened (albeit a bit vulgarly) recently with claims of gate-keeping. The claims of universal racism has no basis, the backlash has a clear connection to the changes done to the source material. Claiming universal racism for the backlash without sources is not neutral, thus the POW template. Even then, racist or not, the backlash is major and very relevant to the subject of the article and should be covered. Until the controversies is covered the article portrays the subject matter in a false or incomplete way, thus not being neutral.--Blockhaj (talk) 23:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- If you've got citations to reliable sources to back up the content you want to add to the article, hold an WP:RFC. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion, so the RFC will establish consensus to include it. If you're just upset that Wikipedia articles aren't including a fan perspective, that's by design. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- NinjaRobotPirate – this is not about a fan perspective, its about a historical event relevant to the subject matter which has so far been blocked from being added due to what seems to be bias. The discussions of its inclusion has not been handled from a neutral point of view and thus the current article portrays the subject matter in an angled manner. Thus it is suitable to feature the POW template. CreecregofLife here instead argues this is not true and that consensus has been reached previously. He also pulls the racism card from nowhere instead of being constructive. Since a neutral conversation cannot be upheld we need a third-party admin to sort this out.--Blockhaj (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- And what is this
historical event relevant to the subject matter
? —El Millo (talk) 01:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)- Facu-el Millo the "historical event" (excuse the wording) is the dislike campaign against the show over the internet.--Blockhaj (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's not a historical event. Was that hyperbole or did you actually think that it was? —El Millo (talk) 03:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- If we have to "excuse the wording" of how you described its importance, then how are we supposed to take it as important? CreecregofLife (talk) 04:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Facu-el Millo the "historical event" (excuse the wording) is the dislike campaign against the show over the internet.--Blockhaj (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- And what is this
- NinjaRobotPirate – this is not about a fan perspective, its about a historical event relevant to the subject matter which has so far been blocked from being added due to what seems to be bias. The discussions of its inclusion has not been handled from a neutral point of view and thus the current article portrays the subject matter in an angled manner. Thus it is suitable to feature the POW template. CreecregofLife here instead argues this is not true and that consensus has been reached previously. He also pulls the racism card from nowhere instead of being constructive. Since a neutral conversation cannot be upheld we need a third-party admin to sort this out.--Blockhaj (talk) 00:30, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- If you've got citations to reliable sources to back up the content you want to add to the article, hold an WP:RFC. Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion, so the RFC will establish consensus to include it. If you're just upset that Wikipedia articles aren't including a fan perspective, that's by design. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@Blockhaj: Tagging an article to express displeasure is not a satisfactory procedure. Start a new section at article talk with an actionable proposal to improve the article or drop the matter. If necessary, start an WP:RFC concerning the actionable proposal. It is not enough to feel that someone should add something—only actionable proposals concerning particular text are helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 02:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The POW template is meant to be constructive.--Blockhaj (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- This is starting to get into WP:IDHT territory. Two administrators have told you how to proceed with this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Not the way you were using it CreecregofLife (talk) 04:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- For those confused about this discussion, it's about {{POV}} rather than {{POW}} that Blockhaj keeps referring to. Nil Einne (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I didn’t even notice the mistake until you pointed it out, let alone how repeated it was. Must be a fervor thing CreecregofLife (talk) 06:34, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Long short descriptions
- HuiYongChin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Yongchinhui (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
I'm not really sure what's going on here, but these two accounts seem to be edit warring to add short descriptions that are pretty long. Wikipedia:Short description and {{Short description}} suggest a 40 character limit. I reverted a few of the edits and tried communicating with one of the accounts, which was ignored (see User talk:HuiYongChin#Short descriptions). Yes, I know there are issues with the mobile app that can suppress notifications, but these accounts seem to be aware that their edits are contentious. In some cases, the newer account is restoring edits by the older account; for example: Special:Diff/1085821571 and Special:Diff/1088013318. In other cases, one account is edit warring without assistance; for example: Special:Diff/1088010013 and Special:Diff/1088093975. I'm not really sure what should be done about this. The accounts are named similarly enough that you could assume good faith and say it's a lost password. The edits themselves are not especially disruptive, but there are two uncommunicative accounts edit warring across multiple articles. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I left them a warning and will block them if it continues. However I might be called away and miss problems for an hour or two. Whether or not they can see messages is unfortunate but not something we can control. Johnuniq (talk) 02:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm going to go ahead and do a totally non-surgical mass rollback. I doubt anyone thinks favourably of such not-short "short" descriptions. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- There are a huge number of accounts right now, that I don't believe are related, that don't seem to understand the point or restrictions of a short description and operate under the assumption it's a summary of the article. Ultimately I think it's caused by the fact that it's really misnamed and Short Description isn't actually accurate. Canterbury Tail talk 13:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is "adding short-desc > 40 chars" edit-filter-able? DMacks (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- WP:EF/R is the place to find out, typically. casualdejekyll 14:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is "adding short-desc > 40 chars" edit-filter-able? DMacks (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- DasKlose (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
@NinjaRobotPirate: this is another one of the culprits, whose latest edits seem to be them reverting part of yesterday's mass rollback... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would guess that this is just another random shortdesc adder. This has become a popular activity with wikignomes because it gives you a low-effort way to inflate your edit count. It's also a very popular way for sock puppets to become extended confirmed, but I don't see any of these accounts racing to 500 edits. You could file a report at WP:SPI if you wanted, though. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Request for revocation of TP
HANDLED | |
Looks like we're done here. For what it's worth, they are not compromised – this is I love you (a.k.a. Muhammad Alfarezal), who has some fairly old sleepers; see the SPI. --Blablubbs (talk) 11:46, 19 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Will an admin please revoke TPA for User:I hate you~enwiki? NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 03:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdrqaz: Presumably the account was compromised? Maybe worth revoking email too? Mako001 (C) (T) 🇺🇦 03:26, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I personally doubt that someone would go to the hassle of compromising an account that has been blocked for nearly sixteen years. It'd be impossible to verify whether a compromise has happened anyway, given that those were their first edits. If they begin abusing their email access, it can be revoked then, but I'm not going to take further action at the moment. (Noting for other patrollers that I have revoked talk page access). Sdrqaz (talk) 03:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Repeated removal of source supporting WP:DOB at Evie Hudak
Jon698 (talk · contribs) who was unblocked with the WP:SO and a reminder to keep aware of general sanctions pertaining to American politics by ferret (talk · contribs) in 2019 has repeatedly removed [108] [109] [110] a source supporting the WP:DOB of this American politician, after final warning. I'm disengaging from the article page but would appreciate it if other folks would ensure this is cited, despite this editor's disruptive and repeated removal after final warnings for removing the source from the DOB, and edit warring. Toddst1 (talk) 04:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please ignore this. Her date of birth is already covered by reference #2. For some reason he wants the date of birth in the lead to be cited as well despite it being completely unnecessary as shown by popular articles like Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Jon698 (talk) 04:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would also like to add this. All information before a reference must be cited in that reference so it is not "removing a direct citation" as he claims on the article's talk page.Jon698 (talk) 04:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Another point is that Ronald Reagan, which is a FA, does the same thing I did by having multiple sentence sourced by a reference. Specifically look at the reference #7in the page which is being used to source two sentences. It is a common and standard thing to do and it is ridiculous that a noticeboard complaint is being made over this. (I hope this will be my last edit to the page as I believe I have shown enough evidence, but I have dozens of other pages to show for those who wish.) Jon698 (talk) 05:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would also like to add this. All information before a reference must be cited in that reference so it is not "removing a direct citation" as he claims on the article's talk page.Jon698 (talk) 04:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please ignore this. Her date of birth is already covered by reference #2. For some reason he wants the date of birth in the lead to be cited as well despite it being completely unnecessary as shown by popular articles like Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Jon698 (talk) 04:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Jon. The DOB already had an inline citation after the following sentence; it doesn't need a second citation right after the DOB, and it doesn't need to also be cited in the lead because it was cited in the body. Levivich 06:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since this seems to be primarily asking for help with the article rather than to do take action against the editor, it really should be at WP:BLPN not here. But editors are missing the forest from the trees. Who cares whether it's cited in the lead or not? There is no way that votesmart complies with BLPDOB. I've therefore removed the DOB while keeping the year after further consideration. If an editor can find a source which complies with BLPDOB, they're welcome to add it back, but until then it stays out. Nil Einne (talk) 07:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne definitely. Policy says "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, many people regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public." I've just taken another BLP to BLPN for that reason. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Votesmart is not an RS? It seems bizarre not to have the DOB of an elected government official in their biography and I'd think VS would be an RS for this sort of basic biographical data. Levivich 12:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't say it's not an RS. I said it doesn't comply with BLPDOB which as Doug Weller highlighted above requires either that the date of birth has been widely published by reliable sources or by sources linked to the subject. Votesmart seems to be some sort of enhanced database of election candidates and publication in databases generally should not be taken as the DOB being widely published. Nil Einne (talk) 02:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I see now the year was kept in, which seems reasonable to me. Levivich 13:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Votesmart is not an RS? It seems bizarre not to have the DOB of an elected government official in their biography and I'd think VS would be an RS for this sort of basic biographical data. Levivich 12:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Nil Einne definitely. Policy says "With identity theft a serious ongoing concern, many people regard their full names and dates of birth as private. Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public." I've just taken another BLP to BLPN for that reason. Doug Weller talk 11:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- 188.58.64.0/18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 77.67.160.0/19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 31.143.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 176.89.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 178.247.128.0/19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 176.227.0.0/18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 178.240.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
- 5.24.0.0/16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log)
--
- 178.247.0.0/18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log) Might not be the same person.
The list of IPs above have a recent history of vandalizing Canibus related articles. Please block them to stop this. 0xDeadbeef (T C) 10:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The article was semi protected a week ago and since then there has been no vandalism to the page. RickinBaltimore (talk) 11:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please look at the contribs. It is not just Canibus 0xDeadbeef (T C) 11:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Example diffs 1 2 0xDeadbeef (T C) 11:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please look at the contribs. It is not just Canibus 0xDeadbeef (T C) 11:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- A number of pages have been protected. If there is persistent disruption at other pages, ask at RfPP for these to be protected too. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
SUBJECT: Disruptive and suspicious behavior of a new WP user
![](https://web.archive.org/web/20220520153434im_/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png)
Hello, I'd like to report on the disruptive behavior of Jsfodness. The editor open a WP account only on April 26 and has shown a pattern of a very strange and disruptive behavior based on his/her revision history of edits:
- The user didn't do any substantial constructive editing
- Mostly tagging and attacking the pages with tags most of which were reverted by other editors
- Trying to delete many pages without even attempting to improve them for which the used received a notice on his/her talk page
- Retaliating against other editors after voting during the deletion discussions
- I believe this behavior doesn't show "good faith" and brings more harm to Wikipedia. --KhinMoTi (talk) 10:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- You don't appear to have communicated with the user before sending this complaint. Going through the contributions of @Jsfodness, they don't have a perfect record. However, many of their AfD nominations seem to have been deleted with good reason. He definitely should have been communicated with better before getting thrown at AN/I.
- By the way, do you have anything to do with 50.209.45.194? It may seem like an odd question but your account was made only 2 days after their last edit, and you both seem to have issues with articles being tagged. It would provide a bit of extra clarification if we were able to string together the IP's good faith edits and yours (Don't worry, it's not considered sockpupptry because when your KhinMoTi account started editing the IP stopped). ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 12:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- ☢️Plutonical☢️, I have no connection to the aforementioned IP. As to the communication to Jsfodness, I didn’t believe the user was doing edits in good faith as he/she didn’t bother communicating with me, but you are right — I should have probably communicate better. However, I left a a notice of discussion on the user’s talk page right after I started the discussion here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KhinMoTi (talk • contribs) 06:36, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Moderator abusing the system
Wrong project.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sabri76 is abusing his power to remove a musician page without any reason. I tried to contact him and asked the reason behind it and he removed my questions too!
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapozof
This person is a well known producer / MC in Turkish hiphop society. He has hundreds of records which have gone viral, produced tv series soundtracks, collaborated with many famous figures, has many followers. Sabri76 is removing his page and disabling on purpose due to unknown reasons. Please try to resolve this, it is obvious that he has no good will in this because, I kindly asked on his talk page and he deleted my kind questions too. Thank you.Se7enty70 (talk) 11:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- This is en.wiki. tr.wiki is a separate project. You'll need to discuss the matter there, there's nothing we can do for you here. --Yamla (talk) 11:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
No Legal Threats violation
Bluelobe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
[111], [112], and [113]. Repeatedly dropping "could be liable for defaming" and similar verbiage. Zaathras (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I was going to leave them a warning about forum shopping when I saw the notice for this ani. Note they are an SPA whose sole contribution has been trying to get us to be less negative about Mr Campbell, yet has failed to provide ant substantive RS contesting what we repeat about him. Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Orangemike, you have indeffed Bluelobe for making legal threats but I cannot see where he has done so. Indeed, he has explicitly denied doing so. He has said that he believes the John Campbell (YouTuber) article is defamatory and could open Wikipedia up to legal action, but that is not the same thing as threatening to take legal action against Wikipedia or an editor. See Wikipedia:No_legal_threats#Defamation.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I would disagree. Were it a passing reference, I think you'd have it right. But a concerted effort in the mode of "nice website you've got there, would be a shame if something happened to it" can certainly, to me, appear to be a violation. As ever, reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Moreover, they took the time to trot over to the talk page of litigation involving the Wikimedia Foundation and post their grievances there, which to me is about as close as it gets to an implied legal threat, even if he says that was not his intention. There's no evidence that the user is here to contribute constructively to an encyclopedia. WaltCip-(talk) 17:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- That doesn't mean, of course, that we should overlook the legal threat if there is actually something wrong with the article.--WaltCip-(talk) 17:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- It may not have been a threat of them taking legal action, it was the use of a threat that someone else might in order to get us to alter an article to their liking. It was an attempt at imdimidation. Nor once by at least three timrs. As such it violated the spirit (do not use legal threats to get your way) of wp:NLT. Slatersteven (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I would disagree. Were it a passing reference, I think you'd have it right. But a concerted effort in the mode of "nice website you've got there, would be a shame if something happened to it" can certainly, to me, appear to be a violation. As ever, reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Campbell (YouTuber), Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1090#Dr Philip Taylor and Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 86#Meat explosion at John Campbell. Uncle G (talk) 18:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- The edit at Talk:Litigation involving the Wikimedia Foundation is what pushed it way over the edge, however weaselly the language. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:01, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
OK let's put the issue of legal threats to one side, they are an wp:spa who posted (word for word) the same screed on three different talk pages/noticeboards (wp:forumshopping?). At the very least it is a form of wp:bludgeoning as it is clear the changes they want to make had been rejected by multiple users and thus (having failed to get their way) they took it to multiple other venues. Their arguments rely on wp:or whilst ignoring the fact that every claim we include is backed by RS (in some cases more than one). They are a time sink that refuses to drop it and is here for only one reason (so may also be a violation of wp:nothere). Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
I will add with this [114] there may also be wp:coi issues, as none of the blocking admins were involved in the dispute. As well as a number of other issues (all relating to wp:nothere), if the block is remove they will be a net drain on time. Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
100.0.161.37
he gone. --Jayron32 12:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
100.0.161.37 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been engaging in blatant POV-pushing and BLP violations since at least 17 February 2021 despite many warnings: 17 February 2021, 25 May 2021, 21 June 2021, 7 July 2021, 24 March 2022, 18 May 2022. Kleinpecan (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- This is a static IP address that has been vandalizing and violating WP:BLP and WP:NPOV for over a year and a half, with few if any productive edits. They have disregarded many warnings. Accordingly, I have blocked the IP for three years. Cullen328 (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Disruptive Latinization of phonetics at Mingrelian language
- 185.143.178.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Mingrelian language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
It seems this anonymous user is edit warring disruptively by changing phonetics to their Latinized version without explanation. Talk page warnings from both myself and HistoryofIran have not helped; the anonymous user continues without relent to make their changes. It appears they're exhibiting similar behavior on other pages related to languages in Georgia. At this time, I think action needs to be taken. Jalen Folf (talk) 21:10, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yep. This IP has so far made 0 edit summaries and used the talk page 0 times. They also attempted to change sourced information at Colchis several times [115] [116] [117] [118] --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Inexpiable posting on my talk page multiple times despite my request that he stop. Also ignoring WP:STATUSQUO, and possibly using a sockpuppet/meatpuppet
Inexpiable has posted on my talk page after multiple requests from me asking him to stop.
In addition, an account that is 7 days old has suddenly sprung out of nowhere and made the same reverts to two articles that Inexpiable made to my changes. See Gabrielle103's contributions. It seems extremely likely that the two accounts are connected, and I plan to file a sockpuppet report. Wes sideman (talk) 22:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Per what I've posted here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Wes_sideman_reported_by_User:Inexpiable_(Result:_) This user has been extremely toxic and engaging in an ongoing edit war since the end of 2020 with another user. He has refused to gain consensus on the talk page of the article in question: Talk:Execution of Nathaniel Woods. I tried to seek a middle ground between both users and he resorted to continuing to revert the article as well as modifying other articles that I used as examples to suit his argument, as seen here: [119] and here: [120].
Why he is making such a big deal over the word "drug" and "crack" is beyond me. I was merely trying to gain WP:Consensus which he refused to participate in and merely changed the article wording again, as he has done since end of 2020, to suit his agenda. I listed examples in the edit warring report I made that shows he has been engaging in a long term edit war since the end of 2020 with TheXuitts. Inexpiable (talk) 22:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
More examples of his ongoing edit war, and this is with another user, not myself:
Original revision: [121]. First time Wes changed it: [122].
More examples of him reverting it here over the past few years and months: [123], [124] [125], [126]. The examples are from end of 2020, 2021, March 2022, and yesterday. Inexpiable (talk) 22:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I see you're trying to distract from the fact that you and Gabrielle103 are obviously connected in some way. Wes sideman (talk) 22:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm not a sockpuppet account. I was patrolling the recent edits and saw that Wes has been edit warring, so I reverted their changes back to Inexpiable's (I say their because I'm not sure what Wes' pronouns are, if they have them that is). This is clearly visible from my recent contributions, in which I have edited multiple articles on or around the same minute as the previous edit (such as Dangerfield Newby, 2022 Lebanese general election and Population displacements in Israel after 1948). I'm just some rando woman lol Gabrielle103 (talk) 22:40, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- That account is 7 days old, has made about 30 edits to articles in that time, and it had an astounding amount of expertise about wikipedia right from Day 1. Wes sideman (talk) 22:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Wes sideman: I have no opinion on the merits of your accusation, but if you believe you have sufficient evidence, you should reopen Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/DrAcHeNWiNgZz (Inexpiable's previous username). Otherwise, you need to cease accusing Inexpiable of socking because it constitutes a personal attack.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the advice, Bbb23. I actually already did that about a half hour ago. Wes sideman (talk) 23:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Would it constitute a personal attack to me as well? Gabrielle103 (talk) 23:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- If you weren't a sock, no. However, the SPI (now moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ariana Williscroft) has already found Gabrielle103 as a sock of the new case name user and has been summarily indeffed. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 02:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since DrAcHeNWiNgZz no longer exists, shouldn't a clerk move the page to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Inexpiable if a new case is open? casualdejekyll 23:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Wes sideman: I have no opinion on the merits of your accusation, but if you believe you have sufficient evidence, you should reopen Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/DrAcHeNWiNgZz (Inexpiable's previous username). Otherwise, you need to cease accusing Inexpiable of socking because it constitutes a personal attack.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
No we are different people. I am based in the UK. Nice try at trying to discredit my arguments though. Inexpiable (talk) 22:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm based in the UK too, just to put that out there. But I appreciate you clearing things up about how we're different people though :) Gabrielle103 (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Inexpiable: per WP:NOBAN, if an editor has asked you to stay away from their talk page you need to do so unless you have a very good reason not to do so. Posting required notifications is one of the only times you have a good reason to post when you were asked to stay away. So this edit was likely okay [127]. But these edits were clearly not [128] [129] coming after these clear requests [130] [131]. The second one coming right after a second request was particularly silly since by that stage you'd already given an edit warring warning (despite being already asked to stay away). There was zero need to violate the clear requests to stay away to post a stronger warning. If you had to open a WP:ANEW case, you could easily point to your first warning combined with the requests to stay away to explain why there were no stronger warnings. I mean even your first warning was a already a edit warring warning of sorts as you acknowledged in the ANEW thread, so frankly even your posting your first clear edit warring warning in violation of the request to stay away was silly. So while Wes sideman needs to stop accusing you of sockpuppetry apparently without sufficient evidence (while Gabrielle103 was a sock, the a CU didn't see sufficient evidence to run a check on you) or they'll be blocked for WP:NPA; you need to lay off Wes sideman's talk page or you'll be blocked for WP:harassment. Nil Einne (talk) 03:32, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough, my bad, and I apologise for that. But they were Red Warn warnings through the program. It's not like I deliberately went to his page and kept posting talk comments. Sometimes I may accidentally send messages from Red Warn by mistake as it is easy to do. I have also seen examples of other users telling others off for deleting Red Warn warnings on their own talk pages as a way of covering up prior warnings. But I will learn from this and not do it again if that's not the right thing to do. Inexpiable (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
So DrAcHeNWiNgZz and Inexpiable are not the same person? Then how does one explain this? 86.167.69.238 (talk) 17:10, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- IP, that's pretty obvious and the answer to your question. They were renamed. PRAXIDICAE💕 17:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Disruptive template edits by Dawn PScLim
Issue: Dawn PScLim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a fairly new editor, has made >90 edits to templates. Most of those edits have been unnecessary or unhelpful, and some have introduced grammatical errors (a few examples cited here).[132][133][134][135][136][137][138][139] Dawn's edits to templates have been reverted by Andrybak[140], The Grid[141], Primefac[142], Sdkb[143] and me.
Attempts to resolve: Dawn received personal messages about changing templates from Jmcgnh[144] and me[145][146]. Dawn continued to edit templates, and I gave them a templated warning with an added message about discussing template changes on the talk page first,[147] which they removed with the edit summary I'll stop
.[148] They then immediately edited another template,[149] and then again today.[150]
Suggested action: Dawn appears to have good intentions but lacks the Wikipedia experience to be making bold edits to templates. I propose a pblock from template space; some time of suggesting changes on talk:template pages that are approved and made by other editors can help them learn and establish that they are ready to edit templates directly. Schazjmd (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Support – Yes, I'm in general agreement with the assessment of the value of these past edits - mostly non-improvements, some actually disruptive - and agree that a partial block would likely be sufficient remedy. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 00:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would support these actions. I admit my lack of proper attention to followup, as I never contacted them about the reverts I made and that I had seen them making them often and should probably stop. Since there have been notices left, seemingly to no effect, a tban may be the only recourse here. Primefac (talk) 05:46, 19 May 2022 (UTC) (please ping on reply)
- I saw this and i want to explain some things. I wanted to change and tried to make better edits and they still were reverted. Some still were reverted when i fixed the problems mentioned (like [151] (indirect)). As i continued, the summaries get unclearer (especially [152] and [153]). Eventually even when I tried minor trivial edits, partly by desperation, it still was reverted (here [154], i think discussion isn't warranted here). Everybody else who reverted, i do find a reason clearly, and so do some edits in the early stages of this. I don't want a pblock, just a detailed explanation exactly on what i did wrong on the edits and work from there, other than grammatical errors, because right now I'm just confused on the exact reason. Thank you. Dawn Lim (talk) 10:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Dawn PScLim The edits you are making are adding redundant and useless text, converting sentences into nonsense and inappropriately changing the meaning of the templates you are editing. Looking at three of the diffs from your comment
- In this edit here [155] the first bit of text is unnecessary repetition. The first sentence already says
This article appears to have insufficient references
, addingand requires more citations
is just repeating the same point. The second addition completely changes the meaning of the template - this is a template used to tag potential notability issues, not verifiability problems. - This edit [156] converts some of the text of the message into nonsense.
and add reliable sources if any for uncited claims.
does not make sense. - In this edit [157] you completely change the definition of a guideline -
practices that editors should follow
andpractices that editors should usually follow
have completely different implications. The second sentence fragment you add,before making changes
, is again redundant to the first part of the section you added it to, which statesAny substantive edit to this page ...
- In this edit here [155] the first bit of text is unnecessary repetition. The first sentence already says
- You should not be editing major clean-up and policy templates with your current level of experience. The wording of these templates is very carefully chosen and individual words may have specific meanings on Wikipedia. 163.1.15.238 (talk) 11:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Dawn PScLim, I explained the problems on your talk page. Jmcgnh told you
The wording on many templates has been carefully hashed out through a consensus process and should not be changed without understanding that background.
I cautioned you to discuss on the talk page before changing templates, and you replied (in your edit summary)I'll stop
but you didn't stop making changes and you didn't use any of the talk:template pages to discuss making changes.What you need to do is to use the talk:template pages to suggest changes that you think will improve a template, and get consensus with other editors that those changes should be made before editing templates. It might also help you learn if you could team up with an experienced template editor for mentoring. But you really need to stop adding unnecessary words and changing existing words in these widely-used templates without discussing these changes first. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC) - Alright, i'll try to do edits on smaller templates in the meanwhile. However the first one you mentioned is a sandbox, and i don't pay as much care with sandboxes, as they don't affect other pages. Dawn Lim (talk) 10:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Dawn PScLim I'm not sure what you mean by "the first one you mentioned is a sandbox", all three of the edits I gave feedback on were made to the actual live template pages. I would strongly suggest that you do not edit any templates directly for the foreseeable future - you have been extremely disruptive in that namespace and have annoyed a lot of people; if you just start making the same type of edits to other templates you are going to end up blocked. If you want to suggest a change to a template go to its talk page and start a discussion - if other editors agree they will make the edit for you. As a newbie you should be focusing on learning policy and writing articles, not mucking about with the wording of templates. 192.76.8.78 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Dawn PScLim, I explained the problems on your talk page. Jmcgnh told you
- Also take more care with your other (non-template) edits. I looked at one Special:Diff/1088577750 and there were lots of errors. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 14:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- After reviewing a sampling of his non-template edits, I believe one of the issues is lack of English language proficiency. I suggest that Dawn PScLim slow down and take more care with his edits: perhaps having an English native-speaker assist. There's already lots of cleanup needed with prior edits, though he does make some good content additions. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 18:06, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Dawn PScLim The edits you are making are adding redundant and useless text, converting sentences into nonsense and inappropriately changing the meaning of the templates you are editing. Looking at three of the diffs from your comment
72.38.10.35's TPA
TPA revoked. Minkai (boop that talk button!-contribs-ANI Hall of Fame) 15:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The IP 72.38.10.35 was recently blocked for 3 months, but they are still vandalizing their user talk page. Likely requires revoking TPA. --interstatefive (talk) - just another roadgeek 00:23, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Interstatefive - I've gone ahead and removed TPA. SQLQuery Me! 05:50, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Unexplained reverting edits by BrickMaster02
A few unexplained reverts by BrickMaster02 have been made on The 1% Club, Blockbusters (British game show), Bullseye (British game show) and Moneybags (game show) and they have been classified as VANDALISM by removing sources!!! Please ask them to stop this or they will be BLOCKED from editing on Wikipedia. Neverrainy (talk) 00:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- They were disruptive. You add the total number of episodes for a show even though that season hasn't even aired yet, credited a place where a show taped, even though the recent version's location was renamed, and also threatened me to respond and forcing administrators to block me. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT remove sources from the articles to pages per se The 1% Club and Moneybags (game show) as they are from official sites from the location that those shows are filmed. That includes unnecessary additions that don't contribute anything to the articles such as Blockbusters (British game show) and Bullseye (British game show) Neverrainy (talk) 00:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Alright, but why would you add the total number of series and episodes, when the first series hasn't even finished airing yet? That is not how television articles work, because the episode count is increased right when a new episode airs. Plus, it doesn't matter whether the location was the same. If there was a name change, then it's updated to reflect that. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT remove sources from the articles to pages per se The 1% Club and Moneybags (game show) as they are from official sites from the location that those shows are filmed. That includes unnecessary additions that don't contribute anything to the articles such as Blockbusters (British game show) and Bullseye (British game show). Ignore this and you will be reported for WP:VANDAL. Neverrainy (talk) 00:35, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have to say the same exact thing? I'm not dumb. This whole thing was just blown out of proportion. Yes, I now admit what I did was stupid, but having this be a serious issue is going overboard. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT use ableist language as it WILL offend people on the autism spectrum. Please do NOT revert edits without a reasonable explanation in edit summary. Neverrainy (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- How was any of that ableist? You know what? I'm done with this. This whole thing is absurd, and it's all because of my minuscule mistakes. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT use ableist language as it WILL offend people on the autism spectrum. Please do NOT revert edits without a reasonable explanation in edit summary. Neverrainy (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have to say the same exact thing? I'm not dumb. This whole thing was just blown out of proportion. Yes, I now admit what I did was stupid, but having this be a serious issue is going overboard. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT remove sources from the articles to pages per se The 1% Club and Moneybags (game show) as they are from official sites from the location that those shows are filmed. That includes unnecessary additions that don't contribute anything to the articles such as Blockbusters (British game show) and Bullseye (British game show). Ignore this and you will be reported for WP:VANDAL. Neverrainy (talk) 00:35, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Alright, but why would you add the total number of series and episodes, when the first series hasn't even finished airing yet? That is not how television articles work, because the episode count is increased right when a new episode airs. Plus, it doesn't matter whether the location was the same. If there was a name change, then it's updated to reflect that. BrickMaster02 (talk) 00:33, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please do NOT remove sources from the articles to pages per se The 1% Club and Moneybags (game show) as they are from official sites from the location that those shows are filmed. That includes unnecessary additions that don't contribute anything to the articles such as Blockbusters (British game show) and Bullseye (British game show) Neverrainy (talk) 00:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Both of you stop, please. You have both responded here. Stop trying to get the last word in or having an endless argument here. Let the admins review. Singularity42 (talk) 00:43, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm an admin, and I cannot parse what the issue is here. Would one or the other of you provide some diffs here so I don't have to go digging around page histories to try to figure out what your problem with each other is? Also going to put it out there that I'm one of those people with The Big A, and I have absolutely no idea what part of BrickMaster02's comment I'm supposed to be offended by. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:16, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- (ec)Both editors need a timeout from editing articles as they have engaged in quite the useless edit war across several articles. While taking that timeout, they can try and find the talk page of the articles to discuss the issue. Additionally, Neverrainy should read up on what is WP:Vandalism (Hint:Vandalism isn't edit you don't like) and not use edit summaries only for threatening administrative action. Seriously, BrickMaster02 isn't innocent here, but I am more concerned with Neverrainy's actions including their comments in this report.Slywriter (talk) 02:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Both editors need to read WP:EW and also pay attention to the WP:3RR subsection right now. Canterbury Tail talk 12:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also very concerned with Neverrainy's edits in general, even just looking at the edit logs. They're full of edit summaries stating "DO NOT REVERT WITHOUT EXPLAINING" and "unexplained removal", but that's pretty much the only edit summaries. They never explain their own edits, their own removals of content etc. Quick to accuse others of not following the rules, but don't ever follow the same rules themselves. They have been blocked twice before for unsourced additions, and have a massive string of warnings over this but don't pay any attention to it. As a result I think it's time for a WP:CIR or WP:NOTHERE block. An indefinite one as they are quite clearly not able to get along with other users, are ignoring everything everyone is saying to them, and have shown zero interest or desire to abide by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Now they have gotten a little better with sources, sometimes, but not always. Canterbury Tail talk 12:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would also suspect that demands not to revert fall afoul of WP:OWN as well, as no editor has the right to demand that their edits are the one that must remain up. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 22:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also very concerned with Neverrainy's edits in general, even just looking at the edit logs. They're full of edit summaries stating "DO NOT REVERT WITHOUT EXPLAINING" and "unexplained removal", but that's pretty much the only edit summaries. They never explain their own edits, their own removals of content etc. Quick to accuse others of not following the rules, but don't ever follow the same rules themselves. They have been blocked twice before for unsourced additions, and have a massive string of warnings over this but don't pay any attention to it. As a result I think it's time for a WP:CIR or WP:NOTHERE block. An indefinite one as they are quite clearly not able to get along with other users, are ignoring everything everyone is saying to them, and have shown zero interest or desire to abide by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Now they have gotten a little better with sources, sometimes, but not always. Canterbury Tail talk 12:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
I have had run-ins with Neverrainy before about unexplained blanking and removal of references, and I would like to bring to attention of admins this IP [158] which is doing the same on The 1% Club and Moneybags (game show). Consider this edit here [159] which shares Neverrainy's concern of episode numbers, as well as blanking the section on the origin of the show (another thing that Neverrainy removes without explanation [160]). I am not sure if this is just editing logged out for ease or comfort, but it's not a good sign when it's on pages where the user is involved in edit warring. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by 31.121.4.10
31.121.4.10 has been repeatedly editing The Open Championship to remove references to the phrase "British Open" despite longstanding consensus. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 03:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- As they are an SPA, I have partially blocked them from the article for two weeks for persistent disruptive editing. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 05:12, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Obsessive misinformation at Stanley Williams
California admins FTW. ![]() |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A (Redacted) individual has been vandalizing Stanley Williams by changing that person's birthplace from the correct, reliably sourced location (New Orleans) to false ones (such as Shreveport or Scotlandville).
See the recent spate of IP edits going back to 21:40, 16 April 2022:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_Williams&action=history
However, this activity actually goes back to at least 2011:
Because Williams is somewhat of a cult figure in some circles, which attracts all kinds of lunacy, and because the page has been vandalized for years with various memes, racist content, etc, I believe the page should get some kind of protection. Thank you for your time. - Hunan201p (talk) 04:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Because there has been significant disruption of the article going back over a month, I have semi-protected the article for three months. Three additional examples of disruption scattered over eleven years does not justify longer protection of the article at this time. Please inform me if disruption resumes after the protection expires, and I will reconsider. Cullen328 (talk) 06:10, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- In the future, Requests for page protection is the best place for things like this. The shortcut is WP:RFPP. Cullen328 (talk) 06:13, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Persisting Vandalism article Mokshas bot needed
Unregisterd User:Vaultralph systematically deletes passages/sections in Mokshas rolling back to obsolete info----Numulunj pilgae (talk) 07:43, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Can you explain what you're referring to when you say "unregisterd (sic)"? Because this user is pretty clearly registered. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 11:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe they mean "unconfirmed?" Minkai (boop that talk button!-contribs-ANI Hall of Fame) 15:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The version with "obsolete info" sure looks like a better article and is mostly sourced. The current version at Mokshas is filled with original research and broken source links, plus random head-scratchers like red links and policy links in "Main article" tags. And then there's Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas, which appears to be a duplicate article that Numulunj pilgae is updating at the same time. I'm also seeing original research and other low-quality edits to Mordvins (before and current) and unclear or missing citations at the new article Moksha name. It looks like Numulunj pilgae may lack the proficiency in English to edit here. Woodroar (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Was blanked again by user Rsjaffe (talk · contribs), who asserted that the content added by Numulunj pilgae (talk · contribs) is inaccurate and poorly written. Also see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas, concerning a content fork created by Numulunj pilgae. I'd also like your opinion on how to clean up existing content in the status quo revision, particularly the History section which hasn't changed much since the {{expert needed}} tag was added in June 2012. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I reverted it to the last edit prior, not blanked it. I sampled some of the assertions (population numbers) in Numulunj pilgae's edits to see if they matched the sources, and they did not. See [164] for a discussion of the concern that Numulunj pilgae is using WP:OR or perhaps inventing things. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:51, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Vaultralph (talk · contribs): Vaultralph should be blocked because they have continued to do what they were warned to stop doing the last time they were blocked, namely edit warring over ethnicity. See their talk page for that info. --TylerBurden (talk) 23:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @TylerBurden: I don't see any instances of edit warring since the last block, except for this incident at Sámi. I'm not convinced that their conduct at Mokshas constitutes edit warring, although they should have given an edit summary the first time they restored the status quo, like they did the second time. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- The Sámi incident is what I am referring to, they edit warred to keep a man listed as being of that ethnicity, citing their own original research of looking at his facial features instead of using any reliable sources. It's in line with their previous behaviour, they were given a strong warning and a final chance by the blocking administrator and went against it not long after their block expired. If an administrator wants to close this, I would say indef since as said Vaultralph went against the conditions that were placed upon them. TylerBurden (talk) 09:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- @TylerBurden: I don't see any instances of edit warring since the last block, except for this incident at Sámi. I'm not convinced that their conduct at Mokshas constitutes edit warring, although they should have given an edit summary the first time they restored the status quo, like they did the second time. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
deletion request
Taken care of. I would also like to remind editors to read the big red box in the edit notice regarding revision deletion/suppression requests. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Probably not something to write here, but in this page has someone's phone number on it and I would like it dereated.--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:25, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've WP:REVDELed the offending edits. --Jayron32 12:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, but you need to delete the comments section as well.--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Jayron32: since this is already here not much point taking it private I guess. Freetrashbox is correct that the previous two edit summaries also need to be revdeleted. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done. Canterbury Tail talk 13:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed that. Thanks to CT for cleaning up my mess. --Jayron32 13:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- No worries, I was here and it only took a few seconds. Canterbury Tail talk 14:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed that. Thanks to CT for cleaning up my mess. --Jayron32 13:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done. Canterbury Tail talk 13:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Jayron32: since this is already here not much point taking it private I guess. Freetrashbox is correct that the previous two edit summaries also need to be revdeleted. Nil Einne (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, but you need to delete the comments section as well.--Freetrashbox (talk) 12:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
That IP editor has persisted. The last few revisions before mine on that same talk page are in need of revdelling for the same reasons as above. Hb1290 (talk) 06:04, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Citobun's rapid mass reverts
All out of a sudden a user, Citobun, has mass reverted my recent edits,[165] and charged me for "block evasion" and "HKGW". I would want to know what that means, what had happened, what the grounds were, and what mechanism that was. This editor doesn't seem to be an administrator. Thanks. 1.64.46.233 (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should wait more than 10 minutes from posting on their talk page to get a response. This certainly doesn't rise to the level of needing to be discussed here. PRAXIDICAE💕 16:03, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- 1.64, when you bring up a user here at ANI, you are required to notify them. I have done so for you. --Jayron32 16:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. That was what I was just doing but obviously I was typing too slow. 1.64.46.233 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I actually did. And now another ten more minutes has passed. May I know what that was about? 1.64.46.233 (talk) 16:13, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Some people check in to Wikipedia infrequently; maybe only for a few hours per day. Many Wikipedia editors have jobs, friends, social lives, need to eat, sleep, go watch a movie, take a good long shit, etc. 20 minutes is certainly not enough time to fit all of that in. Give it a day or two. Citobun hasn't done anything at Wikipedia in over an hour. Perhaps something more important came up and they haven't seen the messages. --Jayron32 16:48, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- HKGW is the WP:LTA Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Hong Kong geography warrior, and the IP has been blocked by as this LTA by User:Ad Orientem Meters (talk) 18:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- They were reported to AIV as such and seem to check most of the boxes. But if an admin or experienced editor familiar with this LTA thinks otherwise, I am always open to a second look. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- It appears to be the LTA WP:HKGW, which has been quite active recently. They have been editing the same articles (and types of articles) (e.g. Fat Kwong Street) and making the same types of characteristic edits (e.g. nationality/sovereignty of small political entities, geographic/infrastructure trivia, adding interlanguage links). After being blocked at 1.64.46.233 they seem to have moved on to 124.217.189.184. Citobun (talk) 20:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- They were reported to AIV as such and seem to check most of the boxes. But if an admin or experienced editor familiar with this LTA thinks otherwise, I am always open to a second look. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- HKGW is the WP:LTA Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Hong Kong geography warrior, and the IP has been blocked by as this LTA by User:Ad Orientem Meters (talk) 18:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Some people check in to Wikipedia infrequently; maybe only for a few hours per day. Many Wikipedia editors have jobs, friends, social lives, need to eat, sleep, go watch a movie, take a good long shit, etc. 20 minutes is certainly not enough time to fit all of that in. Give it a day or two. Citobun hasn't done anything at Wikipedia in over an hour. Perhaps something more important came up and they haven't seen the messages. --Jayron32 16:48, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- 1.64, when you bring up a user here at ANI, you are required to notify them. I have done so for you. --Jayron32 16:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Legal threat by 2409:4050:2E3B:1AF4:71D4:C797:97E8:FAC9 (talk · contribs) on Talk:Yadav
Diff: [166] MadGuy7023 (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- /64 blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Non-communicative editor creating un-/poorly referenced articles
Nascarbball24 (talk · contribs) appears to have an allergy to the user_talk space on Wikipedia. They have been repeatedly told on their talk page to stop creating articles with no references/only database references. The articles, however, continue to be made (see the myriad of AfD notices) and the user has made a total of 0 edits to their own talk page or indeed, anyone else's. Since they have also ignored my attempt to inform them of WP:ENGAGE, I am therefore proposing a block from page creations until the issues on their talk page are addressed. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 05:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think I can block someone from creating pages, so I have blocked the user from article space only for 3 days in order to prevent further mess and hopefully grab their attention. Stifle (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- GhostOfDanGurney, Now the question is, who is going to add results to other drivers' articles for this weekend's races? NASCARfan0548 (alt) ↗ 14:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- My hope is that they can address the issues at hand quickly and in that case, there's no need to worry. Besides, WP:WIP, etc. Regardless, it'll get done. I never considered such edits to be urgent, anyway. -"Ghost of Dan Gurney" 14:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Editor is clearly not here for the encyclopedia
Editors involved
- Itssxmothing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Discospinster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- M.Bitton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Issue
Itssxmothing is clearly clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Their edits to Sweetener (album) clearly constitute vandalism. Diff 1 shows changing an the artist name for no apparent reason, Diff 2 shows all the chart positions being changed, Diff 3 shows the Argentine chart position change and Diff 4 shows a repeat of diff 3 after being reverted. Please note I was not involved in reverted, Discospinster and M.Bitton were but now Itssxmothing has broken 3RR and is clearly here to be annoying/vandalise.
Can I request a indef block for Itssxmothing?
≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 10:20, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- This looks like run of the mill disruption. Warn them, and if it continues, report them to WP:AIV. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Suspected case of blatant advertising
Wikipedia:Identifying blatant advertising
Please review the following Wikipedia entries for a suspected case of blatant advertising of an enterprise and product:
Nosh Technologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosh_Technologies
Nosh (app) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosh_(app)
Nosh daily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosh_daily
Nosh Shop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosh_Shop
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobias2934 (talk • contribs) 10:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Tobias2934: (Non-administrator comment) Please explain exactly how the pages in question constitute blatant advertising including analysing quotes from the article to make that point clear. I assume you are talking about IMLone wolf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log); you must notify them of this discussion if that is the case, as is required by the large red box at the top of this page. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me | Contributions). 11:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do you mean conflict of interest? M.Bitton (talk) 11:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any advertising, I see a description of services and products, but descriptions are not the same thing as advertisements. --Jayron32 11:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Tobias2934 seems to be the one being disruptive here. The origin of this dispute seems to be Somdip Dey, which Tobias2934 has repeatedly tried to WP:TAGBOMB with irrelevant and unjustified cleanup tags [167] [168] [169]. They were asked to justify their addition of tags on the talk page [170], where they provided no convincing rationale as to why they were applied. IMLone wolf removed the tags apparently asking other editors on the IRC chat, which Tobias2934 reverted then filed a bogus ANI report listing four of IMLone wolf's pages (including two redirects) as spam. 192.76.8.78 (talk) 13:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, they seem to have a thing against this person and company and as a result have taken to Wikipedia about it. I don't see any advertising, I see plenty of notability and at least half decent references. None of Tobias2934's edits appear to be justified. Canterbury Tail talk 14:30, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Tobias2934 seems to be the one being disruptive here. The origin of this dispute seems to be Somdip Dey, which Tobias2934 has repeatedly tried to WP:TAGBOMB with irrelevant and unjustified cleanup tags [167] [168] [169]. They were asked to justify their addition of tags on the talk page [170], where they provided no convincing rationale as to why they were applied. IMLone wolf removed the tags apparently asking other editors on the IRC chat, which Tobias2934 reverted then filed a bogus ANI report listing four of IMLone wolf's pages (including two redirects) as spam. 192.76.8.78 (talk) 13:36, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Hawkeye7's involvement in paid editing
On 9 May 2022, an IP posted their version to Ottobock page (diff: [171]). The version was edited on behalf of Ottobock as they hired a firm called Finsbury Glover Hering Europe (diff: [172]). As per WP:COI, paid editors can't edit the page directly and this was rightly reverted a day back. Now, User:Hawkeye7 think otherwise (it was a surprise that they are not aware of this guideline) or maybe they are part of this paid ring? Maybe, they have to clarify here.
The page has a history of paid/COI editing (see a corporate account User:Merle at Ottobock), so these edits weren't a surprise. Thanks. 2406:E003:C1B:E401:F920:C6B5:3570:5741 (talk) 11:47, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7's edits on that page are certainly disturbing. An IP literally says they've added something as a paid edit (albeit a translation from the Germany Wikipedia), another IP removes it as paid editing and Hawkeye7 reverts with the edit summary of "rv - IPs cannot make editorial decisions - take it to the talk page". When reverted they revert again saying take it to the talk page. As we know the onus is on the editor inserting the information to get consensus, but Hawkeye7's edits there are not right. Not sure it needs more than a trouting and pointing to of some rules, but the claim that IPs cannot make editorial decisions and edit warring to reinsert content literally stating it's paid work is worrying. Canterbury Tail talk 11:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Paid work added by an IP, who at the same time can't make editorial decisions? Although WP:COI doesn't say that paid editors cannot edit directly, and it looks like the IP made the necessary disclosure, so everybody is wrong. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'd also like to know where in Wikipedia policy it states that IPs cannot make editorial decisions. Why even allow them to edit Wikipedia then? WaltCip-(talk) 12:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Especially with the hypocrisy that ScottishFinnishRadish points out of it's content an IP inserted in the first place. It's really disturbing edits from such a long time editor, and I'd really like a good explanation. Canterbury Tail talk 12:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- They also don't understand WP:BRD apparently. An IP adds info, another IP removes it, Hawkeye readds it, a third IP removes it again, and Hawkeye reverts this as well[173] with the edit summary " WP:BRD: Take it to the talk page", even though the IP is restoring the status quo (the R part) and Hawkeye has now twice undone this without starting a talk page discussion themselves. Disregard for IP editors, reinstating paid edits, edit warring, and displaying a severe misunderstanding of what WP:BRD is... Fram (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Even if we were to omit the weird WP:BRD / WP:ONUS switcheroo, and even if we were also to omit the WP:PAID / WP:COI components, I am puzzled by this mindset. An IP is allowed to edit (i.e. make editorial decisions), but Hawkeye7's editorial decisions take precedent due to... reasons? It's nonsensical. El_C 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- They also don't understand WP:BRD apparently. An IP adds info, another IP removes it, Hawkeye readds it, a third IP removes it again, and Hawkeye reverts this as well[173] with the edit summary " WP:BRD: Take it to the talk page", even though the IP is restoring the status quo (the R part) and Hawkeye has now twice undone this without starting a talk page discussion themselves. Disregard for IP editors, reinstating paid edits, edit warring, and displaying a severe misunderstanding of what WP:BRD is... Fram (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Especially with the hypocrisy that ScottishFinnishRadish points out of it's content an IP inserted in the first place. It's really disturbing edits from such a long time editor, and I'd really like a good explanation. Canterbury Tail talk 12:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'd also like to know where in Wikipedia policy it states that IPs cannot make editorial decisions. Why even allow them to edit Wikipedia then? WaltCip-(talk) 12:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Paid work added by an IP, who at the same time can't make editorial decisions? Although WP:COI doesn't say that paid editors cannot edit directly, and it looks like the IP made the necessary disclosure, so everybody is wrong. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hopefully this can be worked out as, paid edit or no, that version of the article is vastly superior to what is there at present. "As political situation in post-war Berlin was unstable, and soon after the company was founded, it moved to Königsee in Thuringia" ? Ugh. ValarianB (talk) 14:04, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree the actual edit seems to be mostly good and an improvement. Anyway lets give Hawkeye7 some time, they're in Australia and given their edit history this is now outside their normal online and editing hours. Canterbury Tail talk 14:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any actual evidence here that Hawkeye7 was being paid. Hawkeye7 is the main editor of the article going back six years, so it was very likely to be on their watchlist. I see no reason to assume that this was anything other than Hawkeye7 believing that the edits improved the article (and others here seem to be in agreement with that), and if I saw a reversion of a third of the article on my watchlist I'd certainly have checked it out - making it unsurprising that Hawkeye7 noticed the reversion. Before accusing an editor of being paid there needs to be something to back it up. - Bilby (talk) 14:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone here really believes they are outside the OP, just that their behaviour and comments are odd as is their understanding of who can edit and BRD etc. And there could be some WP:OWN issues. As I mentioned above, I don't this is a super serious matter, but there's some understanding issues that need to be addressed and a possible trouting. Canterbury Tail talk 14:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I guess my hassle is that I'm not seeing anything particularly odd, but maybe I've been editing too long. The edit summary was of course clearly wrong, but I've run into plenty of editors willing to accept paid edits if they improve the article, just as I encounter plenty who will remove on sight just because it was paid. The whole paid editing thing is a mess, so I tend not to jump up and down at people on either side of the accept/revert debate. Without any reason to think that Hawkeye7 was paid, all I'm seeing is someone who wrote a dumb edit summary and who felt that the article was better with the content - and was willing to revert to keep it, albeit without hitting 3RR. If the content was promotional I'd have an issue, but as everyone seems to think that it made the article better, I just see it as the usual butting of heads over paid editing.
- On the edit summary side, Hawkeye was wrong with the summary used to revert the IP. But the IP was wrong with the interpretation of WP:COI that they used to revert the edits.
- Honestly, I wish we could go back to the days before paid editing was a thing, but I fear that was a time that never really existed. :( - Bilby (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone here really believes they are outside the OP, just that their behaviour and comments are odd as is their understanding of who can edit and BRD etc. And there could be some WP:OWN issues. As I mentioned above, I don't this is a super serious matter, but there's some understanding issues that need to be addressed and a possible trouting. Canterbury Tail talk 14:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Mass attack at 2021 Southeast Asian Games
This is so dynamic that mere page protection seems insufficient. There may be some legitimate edits tucked in here, but it also looks like there are hundreds of unsourced and possibly disruptive contributions. May need deep reverting to return to a stable version. 2601:188:180:B8E0:0:0:0:4FAD (talk) 13:15, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- It looks like someone has already requested a page protection. M.Bitton (talk) 13:24, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
IP vandal needs block
2601:601:400:9840:0:0:0:E1F8 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Has been reported at WP:AIV but is on a rampage, vandalizing several pages per minute. Please block them. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:47, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The unearthing of massive UPE operation
Agency Name: RankHawn HQ Location: Bangalore, India Official Website: https://rankhawn.com/
Claims to be Wikipedia Page Creator at their Website - https://rankhawn.com/wikipedia-page-creation-service/
Claims to be Wikipedia Page Creator at third-party sites such as directories - [Zoompo https://www.zoompo.com/rankhawn/], [SartUs https://www.startus.cc/company/rankhawn], [ExportersIndia https://www.exportersindia.com/rankhawn/].
Now, let's focus on their client list (as mentioned on their Website - https://rankhawn.com/our-clients/);
- BharatPe - A client of RankHawn, accepted by User:Nomadicghumakkad on September 4, 2021. [Proof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=BharatPe&diff=1042264890&oldid=1042264675&diffmode=source]
- Current Status: The page is LIVE!!
- Bigbasket - Accepted by User:Lapablo on June 2, 2020 [Proof - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bigbasket&diff=960373814&oldid=960373496]
- User:Lapablo is a sockpuppet of User:Ukpong1
- The page moved back to draft multiple times; these two IDs moved it back to the main article namespace; User:DrJNU and User:Sonofstar.
- Current status: The page is LIVE!!
- Tata 1mg - Page created by another blocked ID User:Myconcern. The page was nominated for an AfD on May 24, 2021, but it attracted a bunch of meatpuppets (as User:MER-C has rightly identified it), out of which only one survived User:Sonofstar and did pretty well to influence the outcome.
- Current status: The page is LIVE!!
- Draft:PharmEasy - Another client of RankHawn, duly moved to mainspace via AfC by User:Nomadicghumakkad [Proof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:PharmEasy&diff=1063078478&oldid=1063078416&diffmode=source]
- Current status: The page is finally in a draft, thanks to Praxidicae
- Draft:BoAt Lifestyle - Another client of RankHawn, duly moved to mainspace for the first time via AfC by User:Nomadicghumakkad [Proof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:BoAt_Lifestyle&diff=1076726237&oldid=1076725588&diffmode=source]. 2nd time AfC move was done by User:Behind the moors (who was blocked because of being a suspected sockpuppet of User:Friedjof)
- Current status: The page is finally in a draft, thanks to Praxidicae
- Also, note, that it is because of this draftification, I was dragged to ANI for the third time by this gang of UPEs.
- smallcase - Created by an SPA. But page was pushed back to draft by an another UPE, User:Germankitty (who happens to be blocked) and again moved it back to mainspace by User:Alookaparatha (also blocked) and edited further by User:GA99(also blocked) and User:User:Behind the moors.
- Current status: The page is currently going through AfD, thanks to HighKing
- Tejas Networks - Page created by a low-level ID - User:Diamondchandelier. Genuinely passed AfC, maybe because of WP:LISTED. But, it was further edited by User:Alookaparatha
- Current status: The page is LIVE!
- OkCredit - The page created by User:Diamondchandelier, the one who created Tejas Networks ([Proof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tejas_Networks&offset=&limit=500&action=history]). But, it was further edited by User:Alookaparatha
- Current status: The page is LIVE!
- Manyavar- The page created by User:Juggyevil. The same ID has earlier updated Tejas Networks ([Proof https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tejas_Networks&diff=1044093688&oldid=1044092878&diffmode=source]).
- Current status: The page is LIVE!
I started this investigation on my end after facing the third ANI case , which was launched against me by the same group of UPEs. The way they tried to influence the ANI discussion by seeding doubts (against me) in the minds of other participants made me more determined to seek them outside Wikipedia. That determination led me to gather more information about paid Wikipedia services providers (in India and South Asia), and gradually I started updating the WP:PAIDLIST. However, I was not so hopeful in the beginning. But, giving up is not an option when your reputation is attacked. Kindly note that I intentionally added the screenshots of RankHawn's webpages to Wikimedia Commons. We should have some proof if they try to modify/update their website to hide the trail. So let's end this once and for all. -Hatchens (talk) 15:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Two issues with this report 1) Why is this here instead of WP:COIN? This seems more suited to that noticeboard. 2) Your diffs don't show any conflicts of interest. For example, your proof for your first bullet is just the dif where the draft was moved to the main space. How do I know, only by looking at that dif, that there is a problem? Same for many of the others. You've made a lot of serious accusations here, but you're light on evidence and on possible solution. And, as I said, this is the wrong venue. --Jayron32 15:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)