Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports Olympics
- Archive 1 — March 31, 2006 – April 5, 2006
- Archive 2 — April 22, 2006 – October 24, 2006
- Archive 3 — November 20, 2006—
Article building using templates
Hi everyone, I started on this Wikiproject a couple of years ago, I then disappeared (well, worked on other areas of WP) and have just had a read of these talk pages again the last few days. Wikipedia's templating features have become very advanced since then so I wanted to throw an idea around:
- We currently have, say, the following articles:
- A. 1996 Summer Olympics (year)
- B. Australia at the Summer Olympics (nation)
- C. Cycling at the Summer Olympics (sport)
- We combine them:
- D. Australia at the 1996 Summer Olympics (nation/year)
- E. Cycling at the 1996 Summer Olympics (sport/year)
- Is there scope for the following style?
- F. (nation/sport)
- And wait for it:
- G. (nation/sport/year)
Now before you say "too much work!" this could actually make things easier! Article G could be a template, and transcluded into articles D, E and F. The same information would only need to be written once, and would then appear in multiple articles. If each transcluded article took the form of a whole section, it would be editable by the usual section "edit" links and no-one would even notice (unless they went to edit the whole page). Formatting changes or disambiguation of names would only need to be done once. Noinclude tags could be used so that the articles can be individually viewed as their own article as well as a subsection of other articles.
I can do up an example of this later if anyone is interested as to how it would work, if there is interest. -- Chuq 01:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Many times this suggestion of pairing "nation/sport" has come across my mind... but it flew away as fast as it approached and i never really had a deep thought about it. An example would be cool. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I had never though of this, but I don't see why we couldn't do this... I'd be "too much work," but it is possibly something that may be for the better. I'd like to see a working example (i.e. one with each of the pages above, A-G and links between them, etc. Don't go overboard, I just want to see how it'd work). I'd like to see it in action! → JARED (t) 02:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I will try to do up an example over the next day or so then :) -- Chuq 02:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- My initial thought is that the "G" pages would only be helpful for a small handful of "D" pages that are too long and need to be split up. I do not think that it should be the default organization for the vast majority of the 3000+ "D" pages we have. Many nations send a relatively small number of athletes to each Games, and if the entire set of results can be captured on a single article neatly, then there is no reason to split it further. Similarly, the "F" pages would be helpful only for "B" pages that are too long, and to be honest, the "B" pages are collectively in the worst shape of any on that list.
- My next thought was that I think we have a LOT of work to do with completing the "base" articles before introducing another level of articles. I fear that the "F" and "G" articles will be very incomplete, perhaps only implemented completely for a very small number of the 3017 nation appearances, and therefore, resulting in inconsistent layout of those articles.
- I think our current job should be to complete what we have now. My current assessment is as follows:
- A. (year) - all complete, although some could use more detail, especially in the "Highlights" section
- B. (nation) - terrible shape! Only 48 articles of a possible 230 for the summer Games have bene started, and the vast majority are little more than stub status, with some statistics from 1896-1900 and that's all. The winter Games articles are even worse, with only 3 complete of a possible 105!
- C. (sport) - all exist, but most need some work. I would like to see the following sections implemented at a minimum on all of these pages: For individual sports: all-time medal table, table of events per Games, list of "top" multiple medalists. For team sports, all-time medal table and a table of national appearances.
- D. (nation/year) - all exist now, although I'm guessing that I created over 1000 stubs, so there's obviously an enormous amount of work to do. At a minimum, we should strive to complete the following information per page: number of competitors and sports (in infobox) and complete list of medalists. A conservative guess is that only a few hundred pages at most are at this level of completion.
- E. (sport/year) - many still don't exist. (This is where I plan to work on next.) At a minimum they need a medal summary, and a medal table for multi-event sports. When complete, each event ought to have its own article as well.
- I don't mean to put a damper on your proposal, but I don't think we should start another set of articles until we've made more progress on what we've already started. Andrwsc 05:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Andrwsc: you have a knack to enlighten us :D The way you've put things... there's no doubt that there is still a lot of work to do, indeed. Neverthless, we can always see an example of his proposal just to have an idea of Chuq's intention. Nothing serious for now. Anyways, have you people seen my recent posts above? — Here and here. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 06:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, absolutely! I've already added those six winter pictograms to the appropriate navigation boxes! As for the competitor summary, it's a neat idea, but I haven't thought hard enough about how to respond to your proposal... Andrwsc 06:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Ok - take a look at:
- User:Chuq/Paintball at the 1996 Summer Olympics
- User:Chuq/Australia at the 1996 Summer Olympics
- See what you think! -- Chuq 12:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Hmm, there's some interesting ideas there! However, I do feel that "Results by nation" is not a good idea for any of the "Sport at the year Olympics" pages. "Results by event" is clearly the most logical way to go for those articles. I also think that there should only be a single "Results by xxxx" grouping per article - take a look at Brazil at the 2004 Summer Olympics to see what happens when a page has multiple groupings. (It has results by date and by event.) Not only do they easily fall internally inconsistent, but it is a mess for a reader to navigate. Andrwsc 00:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- It might be me but... those two examples don't exist already in the "Country at the YYYY Season Olympics" pages? I mean the "Results by sport" section. Isn't pretty much what we have already? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 04:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- They do exist (well, except for , I hope no-one creates that!) - but edit the page and take a look at the code. You will find an article, User:Chuq/Australia in Paintball at the 1996 Summer Olympics, which is included in both - and when one is changed, the other is also changed. Andrwsc raises a fair point in that it won't be useful in all cases, but it is just a concept I thought I would introduce here, as it may have potential! Also note that the "User:Chuq/" prefix is solely so that these test pages dont get mistaken for "real" pages.
- Not to confuse things, but I just made another change (about 5 minutes ago). User:Chuq/Australia in Paintball at the 1996 Summer Olympics now works as a stand alone article. When included, it is just the bare content - when viewed separately, it adds a header, and categories, and changes the section name, to appear as a real article. -- Chuq 06:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- can i make a suggestion? re: E. sport/nation/year, instead of having "NOC at Sport Year Summer/Winter Olympics" why not just make a general article for each NOC and the Sports Team/Athletes, that can be titled "NOC national sport team" for team sports or "NOC national sport athletes" for individual sports. for example, there is an article called Japan national baseball team which can be linked to the standings table of "Baseball at the Year Summer Olympics" article. another example in the Boxing at the 2006 Asian Games medal table, Uzbekistan is linked to Uzbekistan national amateur boxing athletes. i believe this would be simpler and easier than having an article created for each Olympics like creating while we can consolidate all the info of a particular sport for each NOC in one article. there was a previous discussion in village pump (sorry i can't seem to find it) about the growing consensus regarding the quality of WP articles rather than quantity. RebSkii 18:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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IOC usage vs Wikipedia's inventions
While the IOC uses "USSR", not "Soviet Union" in the majority of its publications, including official reports by the organizers, Wikipedia seems to have now completely settled upon using "Soviet Union" instead. Even "URS", which is a shortcut for the French "URSS" (English:"USSR") now corresponds to the "Soviet Union". I thought, that using "Soviet Union" in category and article names and the IOC designation "USSR" inside the Olympic articles was a compromise. It's now clear, that I was wrong.
Well, if you, guys, keep things going this way, then I'll consider starting to use "USSR" in category and article names to balance your POV. Cmapm 23:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- What's the POV issue here? As per the lengthy discussion above on this page, we're trying to arrive at a set of names that are appropriate for Wikipedia Olympic articles. The arguments in favor of "Soviet Union" are that it matches the name of the main article for the nation, and it avoids using an abbreviation in the article name (similar to the choice of "United States at the Olympics" instead of "USA at the Olympics"). The argument in favor of "USSR" is that it more closely aligns with Olympic report usage. (Although, to be precise, only two official reports used "USSR" as written, the other 16 used "U.S.S.R.".) Are there other arguments to those three?
- In any case, I'd still like to know why you think "Soviet Union" usage has POV implications, and what your suggestions would be? When I last tried to raise this issue a few months ago, there was deafening silence. At least this time there were three other people (now four) to weigh in with an opinion. Andrwsc 23:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Some prefer to use "Soviet Union", while others prefer to use "USSR", from this I conclude, that both have two distinct POVs on this issue. Wikipedia should equally represent both of them IMHO. I should add to your arguments, that the IOC also always uses "U.S.S.R" (or "USSR"? don't remember) at its official website in medal stats tables. I didn't dig into the "USA" usage, but it seems, that the IOC prefers "United States" or "United States of America" - hence I see no problems with this name.
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- I should immediately reply on that discussion if I knew of it. But even now I'm writing quite a long article on a completely different subject :) So, please, could you excuse me, if next time I come with too late reply? Cmapm 00:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
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- No worries! I didn't mean to imply there was a time limit on discussion! I just didn't realize it was a sensitive issue. From my perspective, "Soviet Union" is much more widely used in Wikipedia, and didn't seem controversial to me. Very few of the articles mentioned at Wikipedia:WikiProject Soviet Union use "USSR" (or "U.S.S.R.") in the name. I still fail to see what is POV about the name. To me, they are both reasonable abbreviations of the proper full name. One does not strike me as any more or less neutral than the other. "Soviet Union" just seems to be a better choice for Wikipedia article names, for pretty much the same reasons as found on Talk:Soviet Union#Title etc. Andrwsc 00:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
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- More common? E.g. Britannica prefers the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" (abbreviating it "U.S.S.R.") [1]. Anyway, it's important, in which context the name is more common. In Olympic documents, footage, etc. "USSR"/"U.S.S.R." is much more common, than "Soviet Union". And after reading, watching official coverage and documents, folks come into the Wikipedia and see "Soviet Union" in the majority of Olympic-related stats...Cmapm 10:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
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- If you really insist on "USSR" instead of "Soviet Union" (and I think you are the only one here who cares and/or wants it that way), can you please make the hundreds of other edits required to implement that change? Making the change to {{Country IOC alias URS}} is only the first step. There are category name changes (e.g. from Category:Soviet Union at the Olympics to ), navigation box changes, and hundreds of article edits. Redirect pages are handy in the interim period, but they should not be relied upon for the long-term solution. Thanks. Andrwsc 17:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Standardize 'em all? :-) Why can't two names coexist inside articles? Quite a lot of the categories with "Soviet Union" name (e.g. subcats of Category:Olympic competitors for the Soviet Union) were created by me. Because Wikipedia's rules say we should better avoid abbreviations in category/article names and "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" would be too long for that. But I'm speaking on the recent change in the URS alias, which automatically changes, for instance, all "total medal count" tables, where "USSR" was since their creation and for a long time! I expected strong sourced reasoning behind that change, because the IOC also uses "USSR" in those tables. I see that "reasoning" in the recent "URS alias" change - "the majority of us think so". No more comments from me. Cmapm 11:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Cmapm, it was great for you to have stood up for your opinions! You had a very logical, reasonable argument for using USSR. Unfortunately, most of life revolves around "majority rules" and this situation was no different. You've been editing WP long enough to know that. I see that you are an avid supported of the Soviet Union, and that's great, and I hope you understand where we're coming from. A majority of the people here agree with Andrwsc's ideas below about the "details" link he wants on the sub pages. Although I disagree, I'll live with it because most people think it will be for the better. And I'm staying with the project.
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Medal summary table formatting
I'd like to get some opinion on a potential change to the layout of the medal summary tables found on the "Sport at the year Olympics" pages. Right now, the standard format looks like:
Event | Gold | Silver | Bronze | |||
50 m freestyle | ![]() United States (USA) |
21.93 | ![]() Croatia (CRO) |
21.94 | ![]() South Africa (RSA) |
22.02 |
100 m freestyle | ![]() Netherlands (NED) |
48.17 | ![]() South Africa (RSA) |
48.23 | ![]() Australia (AUS) |
48.56 |
200 m freestyle | ![]() Australia (AUS) |
1:44.71 | ![]() Netherlands (NED) |
1:45.23 | ![]() United States (USA) |
1:45.32 |
Our intent is that this table is the "gateway" to the detailed results for each event, using the wikilink on the event name in the first column of the table. One of the things that has always stuck in the back of my mind is that it may not be totally obvious to newcomers that there is a whole "layer" of information beneath this article and clicking on the event name is how to find it. Therefore, I thought we might want to make it a bit more explicit. Borrowing a formatting idea that I've seen on some other sport pages, I thought we could add a "details" link in the first column, like this:
Event | Gold | Silver | Bronze | |||
50 m freestyle details |
![]() United States (USA) |
21.93 | ![]() Croatia (CRO) |
21.94 | ![]() South Africa (RSA) |
22.02 |
100 m freestyle details |
![]() Netherlands (NED) |
48.17 | ![]() South Africa (RSA) |
48.23 | ![]() Australia (AUS) |
48.56 |
200 m freestyle details |
![]() Australia (AUS) |
1:44.71 | ![]() Netherlands (NED) |
1:45.23 | ![]() United States (USA) |
1:45.32 |
What do you think? Andrwsc 04:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Took the words out of my mouth. This was exactly what I was thinking of proposing. It would let the reader know that there are more details about each of the events. I really like this. Plus it would most certainly do away with the event templates that are found on certain pages. The event templates certainly should exist, but not on the "sport at the XXXX Olympics" pages. Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics is an example. With details added into the medal tables, the event template at the bottom of the page would be completely unnecessary. Perakhantu 08:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Maybe tomorrow I'll try to update Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics to see what it looks like. We can always revert back if there is violent opposition. Andrwsc 08:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I say: go ahead. Don't see any cons that would create tension over that change. And if those huge super-coloured event templates happen to be replaced, the better! Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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- At the risk of starting a divergent topic, I must say that I'm not a big fan of those navigational templates either. The multi-colors and the multiple titles (e.g. do we really need yet another link to "Athens, Greece" etc. on each sport template?) really make them look cluttered and ugly, in my opinion. I would be in favor of a simple list, located at the top right of the individual event pages, in a style similar to what is suggested at Wikipedia:Article series. I like the simplicity and placement of templates like {{Style}}. Andrwsc 18:37, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree. That list would look much cleaner, aesthetic and its vertical axis would distinguish it from all the other horizontal templates. It's a matter of testing. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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Sorry I'm a little late joining in here. Here's what I think: First, I'm not too big on the "details" link. I'd go for it, but it seems that it's a little unnecessary for the table. I can see where you're coming from, but, again, the other template that you brought up takes care of that. Which leads me to say that I do like those event per sport per year templates. The colors and nice, IMO, and it's a quick way to navigate between those sub sport pages which are big enough to have their own page. {{Style}} seems like an alternative, but if anything should be salvaged from the templates that Jonel created, it should be the coloration and the basic set-up. Maybe I'll make a test template if I get a chance...one that could be used across all of the sports and sub-sports pages in each year. For now, though, I think everything is viable. → JARED (t) 20:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I guess we have different tastes! No disrespect to Jonel, because I know how much work has gone into them, but I have several problems with those templates. First, the color scheme is a poor choice. The bluish shade for men and pinkish shade for women in templates like {{AthleticsAt2004SummerOlympics}} is a form of gender stereotype that could be offensive to some people. To me, it's just tacky. I see that some years have a different scheme (e.g. {{AthleticsAt1964SummerOlympics}} and {{AthleticsAt1896SummerOlympics}}) but I would still say that there is no strong reason to have three or four shades of color in a single navbox. Second, the titles of these templates often go overboard; they don't need the extra header rows to repeat the link to the main Games page and host city, or to state "Games of the x Olympiad". A single title and link to the main "Sport at the year Olympics" article to totally sufficient, in my opinion. Lastly, I do not like the inconsistency of these templates. In addition to the color differences mentioned above, there are also size differences. For example, {{FigureskatingAt1908SummerOlympics}} is vertically oriented, but placed at the bottom of articles, where horizontally oriented navigation boxes are usually used.
- I think the right solution is to have a "parent" template that defines the basic structure, color, location, etc. and then per-sport/Games templates would be derived from those. That is the approach I took with the infoboxes on the "Nation at the year Games" articles. All the layout details are defined in one spot ({{Infobox Country Olympics}}) with parameters to define the details. Some of those parameters are specified in a per-nation template (e.g. {{Infobox Olympics Greece}} and the rest are specified on the individual articles.
- With that in mind, perhaps we need to agree on the visual details first and then work from there. Andrwsc 08:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I'd just like to note that I didn't design those templates, I've just been using a format I picked up somewhere else (specifically, {{SwimmingAt2004SummerOlympics}} -- going through the history of that template is quite interesting). I definitely agree that blue/pink is not wise; all of the 1964 templates I've created recently have been blue/blue. I'd certainly have no problem making them the same shade of blue. The extra title lines are indeed extraneous and could be eliminated. As for the size differences, those are an artifact of the fact that sports have different numbers of events. The figure skating one has three lines because it had men's, women's, and mixed events. Since it only had 1 or 2 of each, it looks vertical. If there were 8 events in each group, it would be as horizontal as the others.
- All that said, as long as there's an easy way to navigate between events, I'm happy with pretty much any display characteristics. -- Jonel | Speak 15:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Wow, there certainly were some style differences on that swimming template! I think this precisely makes my point that we need a "parent" template to hold all the style decisions (such as our current use of {{Dynamic navigation box}} or {{NavigationBox}} for the current bottom-of-page navigation boxes such as {{NOCin2004SummerOlympics}}, {{EventsAt2004SummerOlympics}}, and {{Olympic Games Swimming}}).
- I recognize that the size and shape differences of the current event boxes are due to the differences in number and type of events, but I also think it is possible to use a scheme that looks similar across a wide variety of cases. For example, instead of:
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The 1908 Summer Olympics in London Games of the IV Olympiad |
Figure skating at the 1908 Summer Olympics |
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- we could have:
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Figure skating at the 1908 Summer Olympics |
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Men's individual • Men's special figures • Women's individual • Pairs |
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- I'm not necessarily advocating the use of {{NavigationBox}} for these boxes, but I just used it to make my point about consistency.
- I do think that we need to decide upon a format we want to see for these boxes. I've already stated my personal opinion, about a vertical "series box" in the upper right hand corner, because I think this style "scales" easily from sports with a handful events to the current athletics and swimming programs. I also think a vertical format is easier to read with respect to lists of event names. I find horizontal formats to be difficult to read sometimes when you see a big mass of text. (I think they work great for lists of years, of course, since they are all similar list items.)
- When I created all the infoboxes for the "Nation at the year Olympics" pages, I just got WP:BOLD and forged ahead. About 4000 edits later nobody complained! However, in this case, I think it might be better to get a discussion going first. ;) Andrwsc 17:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- With every reply you make, Andrwsc i'm even more decided to support you on your vertical event list template! Your arguments are very pertinent and i do believe it will benefit those pages both in aesthetics and acessibility. You have my support. Just one doubt: the "details" links you suggested would still apply? I wouldn't see much sense in that afterwards. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I think what is being proposed here is that the event template would only be used inside the events themselves, while the details links would be used on the main sport page. For example, the details links would be used in here: Athletics at the 1900 Summer Olympics. The event template would be used in here: Athletics at the 1900 Summer Olympics - Men's 400 metre hurdles. By the way Andrwsc, the current event template at the bottom of that 400 meter hurdles page would be changed so that there won't be any color and the heading The 1900 Summer Olympics in Paris Games of the II Olympiad would be removed, correct? Perakhantu 07:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Oh, ok. That seems right. Thanks for clearing me on this issue. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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I'm not part of the project, but I have changed many tables, including some related to the Olympics (e.g. Shooting at the 1996 Summer Olympics). I noticed the use of a template on Shooting at the 2004 Summer Olympics which led me here. Some thoughts I had (comparing the above two pages):
- Instead of a flag icon, country name and country code/abbreviation, you could make use of the standard Wikipedia:Country referencing templates, where {{USA}} would result in a flagicon and a wikilinked country name, e.g.
United States. Putting this on a new line below the athlete name (or in adjacent column) makes for a clean look as well as simpler editing.
- You could consider reducing the font-size ever so slightly, perhaps to 95%?
Deon Steyn 11:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- We are using standard templates for these tables, namely {{flagIOC}} and related templates. They have several advantages over the non-Olympic templates:
- the wikilink is to the appropriate "Nation at the year Olympics" article, which is significantly more useful than a link to the nation's main article
- the flag is automatically chosen as per the specific Games instance. This is helpful for historic flags (e.g. US 48 stars, German Empire, etc.) It is sometimes quite difficult to find the right template call for historic flags but it is handled completely transparently by the flagIOC templates (assuming that the Games paramater is correct, such as "1912 Summer" for example)
- the flagIOC series of templates use the IOC country code, not the ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 code. This makes it significantly easier for editors writing new pages from official results (esp. since 1972), where the codes are used prominently. How would they know that Algeria is {{DZA}} instead of ALG as they see it in the results listings?
- Also, how does reducing the font size help? What problem are you trying to solve? Andrwsc 18:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Hi all! What's the situation of this proposal? I'd really like to see the vertical event box that Andrwsc suggested being applied, as I've created new event pages and a template like that would come in handy. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
New Olympic infobox
Hey all. This discussion has made me think about our existing template {{Olympics infobox}}. The problems I have with it are that the logos are totally ramdomly named and are in totally different formats, some have extra links in the fields, some don't, and its only use is basically on the main Olympics page. It should be able to be used across all Olympics pages right? So right now I'm pretty much doing a complete overhaul on the existing template, making it useful, convenient, and all the information would be built into the template. The only thing the user would need to know is the year of the games, the season, and possibly the sport (I haven't gotten there yet).
Anyway, regardless of whether this goes through or not, could someone with oodles of free time on their hands go to the Olympic games IOC page and upload each Olympic logo again, under a common name such as Year Summer/Winter Olympics logo.jpg (ex. 2006 Winter Olympics logo.jpg). I'm not sure whether .jpg would be the best format, but since I think all of the logos (the IOC website calls them "emblems") are in the .jpg format, that'd be easiest. (What do you think?) The Games that don't have "emblems," just use the IOC's "poster" for those games. Then just speedy all the other images already on WP.
Thanks to anyone who is up to doing this! → JARED (t) 16:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- What are you up to? :) I'm a bit concerned about your idea of including this infobox on ALL olympics pages - i hope it won't clutter up some already content-filled pages. But i'll wait for an example. As for the Olympic emblems, there's indeed a need to standardize the image files 'cause we have PNG, JPG, GIF and even SVG! And most of them with different filenames... I could do that task, if anyone doesn't come forward. You'd want them all in JPG format?
- I'd have to upload them to en Wikipedia (not Commons), right? And the existent logos? What would be of them? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I really haven't finished it yet, so I'm not even sure what'll come of it, but I'm sure it'll be better, whether it is put on "ALL" pages or not! :)
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- As for the images, I'd think .jpg would be fine. That's what they all are on the IOC page, I think. Regardless, they all need to be the same format for my evil plan to work! And, yeah, go ahead and upload 'em to the en wiki. I would just put {{Redundant image}} on the old image pages.
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- But some of the images on IOC website are not better than some emblems on Wikipedia. For example, i don't think i should replace PNG or even SVG files with those JPG ones from IOC. I could upload the IOC ones... and not tag the existent ones, for now. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Ok, then ;) (you're welcome) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 22:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, the "dirty" job is done - see here. I've regreted going for the JPG instead of PNG when i saw Tokyo and Sapporo's red sun all "wavy", but i'm not going back for that. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I applaud the effort to standardize the visual appearance of those boxes, but what did you have in mind when you said "It should be able to be used across all Olympics pages right?" I strongly believe that infoboxes built on {{Olympics infobox}} should only appear on the main "Year Summer/Winter Olympics" pages. I do not think they belong on any of the next level sport or nation pages, for example. The information contained in those boxes (e.g. opening/closing ceremony information, "Officially opened by", etc.) really only applies to the Games as a whole and would be inappropriate on other pages. Or am I misreading your intent? Andrwsc 08:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I review myself on Andrwsc's point, that's why i revealed my "concern" with that idea... but i lent Jared the benefit of doubt, even though i tend to agree that that infobox makes sense only at the main Olympic Games article. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Yeah, my plan pretty much fell through anyway, it didn't seem plausible. I totally agree Andrwsc, that the info on the box should only be on the main page, and I was trying to make it so that it would only appear when it was there, but that would have gone overboard. Anyway, here's what I've come up with. It's basically the same template, only all the information has been transposed onto one template (series) so that the only info needed to get the same thing as what is on each games "home page" now is the year and the season.
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- Now, the whole idea may seem unnecessary now, because my original intentions weren't going to work (as I initially found out) but on the plus side, I think they would still be useful because
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- it wouldn't clutter up the top of the page
- the whole thing led to a common logo name
- and it would be easy and convenient for people to put it up on new pages (assuming, that the info is already entered on the page.
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- ... Even if it won't be used, i'm really awed by the code you used to automatically get the Olympiad roman number out of the Olympic year ;) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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Medalists dynamic box
I've been a bit absent from here, but i've been working on a new thing which i think might interest you. I've made a two-version template (actually two very similar templates) which can display all the Olympic medalists of a certain country, per medal type. Here is where you might say "ALL?! You're crazy! Do you know how many medals the United States have?!", lol. Yes... in the case of "big" countries like the US, Soviet Union, China, etc., it might be an herculean task, but there are loads of countries who don't have such records and listing their medalists would be simple. To find out more about this take a look - HERE - and then post your comments here! Parutakupiu talk || contribs 03:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- It looks good; I'm just not sure of your intentions for the template(s). I think you would want to put them on Nation at the Olympics, Nation at the XXXX season Olympics,...and possibly at each medalist's page (but that may be overboard). Overall, I think I like first template better because it looks neater. The second one might be nicer, yes, for larger nations, but would each medalist be listed for as many times as they won? I'm also not sure of the ease of using the template for huge nations, like the US. Maybe an example... Good work though so far! → JARED (t) 21:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I believe they could fit at the "Nation at the Season Olympics" because the template header will only show either "Summer" or "Winter". Moreover, for countries with "tons" of medals it'll be heavy to join all Olympic medalists from both seasons. I also thought putting it on the medalists' pages but i'm not so sure now because there are A LOT of medalists without personal articles, especially from weak-performing countries. I also like the first template too (tidier) and it only implies a unique entry for an athlete, even if he won more than one medal of a kind. In the second template, the inclusion of the years would oblige repeting athletes who won the same medal in different Olympics. Yet, i quite like the "year parameter" - even with these cons - but i'm ok with your preferences. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
{{NationsinOlympics}}
I just discovered this template, leading me to a whole slew of pages I had no idea existed. Do we want to have Nation at the Olympics pages, discounting season? I think it's interesting, but I'm not sure about it. I didn't realize they were there, and I wasn't sure if anyone else did or not, so I thought I'd bring it up. → JARED (t) 21:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- Not only that, but notice the use of a whole new parallel infobox template ({{Infobox Country at the Olympics}})!! User:Nyttend seems to be doing this work outside of the scope of this WikiProject.
- So much for my vision of a CONSISTENT visual appearance to these pages. What a waste of my time. I give up. I'm outta here. Good luck, everybody! Andrwsc 21:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- What that heck! Besides being totally redundant, that user can't even claim he/she didn't know, since that template's a perfect copy of Andrwsc's infobox!!! Andrwsc, please don't abandon this. Your work is too important and valuable on this project for it to be the same without you. Please, reconsider. I do admire your tremendous work :) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 22:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
- Has anyone gone to User talk:Nyttend to ask them why they're creating an alternate system? The use may be newer, but they seem to listen to reason so they may not even know about this WikiProject. Everybody remember to take a breath and assume good faith in your fellow editors, please. :) -- nae'blis 22:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Ok, notwithstanding my knee jerk reaction at the apparent case of "not invented here syndrome" demonstrated by these new pages and templates, I do think there is a lot of merit in having "Nation at the Olympics" as the main summary article for each nation. Of the 233 NOCs that we need pages for, only 105 have ever appeared at least once at the Winter Games. Also, the large majority of those nations could easily use a single page to describe their entire Olympic history, including both Summer and Winter. My estimate is that only about 20 nations will really need to have to use separate Summer and Winter pages. Therefore, I believe that the default structure ought to be a single page for most nations, with a split into separate Summer and Winter articles only when there is enough content to warrant it.
- I would still like to see these new pages, and especially the new infobox, be reconciled into our existing structure and templates, but I'm not going to do that. It's time for a wikibreak for me, possibly for a long time. Good luck! Andrwsc 23:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Mea culpa. I admit i was a bit harsh on my reaction too but i almost went desperate just by seeing Andrwsc hitting the door. For what you've done here (thousands of edits!), you - more than anyone - deserve a break from anything wiki. Just promise you come back fresh to help us ;)
- I'm not angry at User:Nyttend... but it's strange that he made a perfect copy of that infobox and won't know of this project, i guess. However, after thinking a bit, i agree with Andrwsc with the validity of those pages for NOC's which don't have much of an Olympic history. But perhaps we should reach our goals on the current work before starting on that, i don't know. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, I initiated contact, and I hope I came across as diplomatically as possible. (did I do a good job?) If any of you have anything to add to his talk page, please do. I have some serious concerns about this as well. The pages that have already been created and extensive edited by Andrwsc are very well done, and have been made such a way, that basically you just have to add the info from the offical reports. I hope we won't have an edit war on our hands. (crosses fingers) Perakhantu 07:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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Wow, I read all this, and I'm so sorry for causing quite a mess. I had no idea that there would be a problem. I'll just give you a shortened version of what I left on Perakhantu's talk page. In short: seeing that there were already pages for Belarus and the USA at the Olympics, and that there was a long-dormant {{NationsinOlympics}}, I thought it might be useful to have more national summary pages (as Andrwsc said above), so I began putting some up. I was aware of Andrwsc's template; because I have almost no template experience, I took that template and sought to modify it to get it to show summer and winter and total medal counts, plus all the different years in which each country participated. Let me be clear: I am not seeking (nor have I ever) to compete with you or get in your way, and I am sorry for my encroachment. I created these pages as an introduction to each country's Olympic participation, using solely the various articles on the country's participation at each Olympics plus the IOC website. I am not especially interested in joining this wikiproject because I did this as a means of organising information better (like how people create "List of ___" articles), not because I'm interested in continued work on Olympic articles. If you prefer that only wikiproject members do major stuff for Olympic articles, I'm fine with getting out of the way :-) Nyttend 16:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, looking again at what all of you said: what I put together I drew, not from the official reports, but from pages like Cameroon at the 1972 Summer Olympics that Andrwsc created. Nyttend 16:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hey Nyttend! I never intended for this to be a brawl or anything. I didn't even intend to point out an individual person for doing this. (If fact, the template, as you mentioned, has been around for some time.) I noted the "problem" here because we've always only had "Nation at the Summer Olympics" and "Nation at the Winter Olympics" pages, and it came as a surprise to me when I saw the ones I did ("Nation at the Olympics"). I appreciate your tidying skills, and definitely would encourage you to work with on Olympics articles—you need not be a member of this project! Here, though, we've found it more helpful if we discussed things here before implementing major changes, but, again, you had no idea, so it was an honest mistake.
- My main concern, which has little to do with you, is whether these pages should be kept, scrapped, or what? We already have separate Summer/Winter pages for each nation, and combined pages might be nice, but I like I've said, I've never seen these before and I was confused. I think now, before other users continue editing them, we should make a decision on whether we should keep them or not. About 160 redlinks can be found for each the Summer/Winter Olympics in regards to nations, FYI. → JARED (t) 20:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, since I began creating 20+ complete summary pages having already seen some of the summer and winter summaries you mention, you should be able to guess what I think on having complete summaries :-) Incidentally, the reason I did the ones I did was that I wanted to get lots of countries done fast, and West African countries I figured had participated the least and won the fewest medals.
Anyway, I don't think it right to have a non-wikiproject member determining wikiproject policy, so I'll not attempt to get in your discussion. Nyttend 22:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- Well, since I began creating 20+ complete summary pages having already seen some of the summer and winter summaries you mention, you should be able to guess what I think on having complete summaries :-) Incidentally, the reason I did the ones I did was that I wanted to get lots of countries done fast, and West African countries I figured had participated the least and won the fewest medals.
Re-open discussion
I'd like to re-open this discussion. First, let me apologize for my slightly over-the-top reaction before my short (as it turned out) wikibreak. It was a bit unprofessional of me. I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking Nyttend. I was just a bit frustrated at having a "parallel" set of pages and infoboxes.
Having said that, I think the issue raised ought to be dealt with. Basically, the question is how we want to organize the "top-level" articles in the "Nation at the Olympics" series. I had created a few Winter Games summary articles (e.g. Norway at the Winter Olympics and Germany at the Winter Olympics) before the holidays, but before I continue, I'd like to get consensus on the structure and content.
Here are my suggestions:
- As per comments above, I don't think that the Summer/Winter pair of articles should be the main method of navigation. Really, only about 20 nations (~10% of total) require this split. 54% of nations have never attended the Winter Games at least once. Therefore, (for example) strikes me as a better top-level page than Cuba at the Summer Olympics. Of those who have, quite a few are warm-weather nations who sent 1 or 2 athletes each time. Do we really need as a separate article? Therefore, I think those nations could and should have their entire Olympic history in a single article. "Big" nations like USA, URS, GER, FRA, etc. can and should have multiple summary articles.
- I'm concerned about the currently poor quality of the existing summary articles. There were good intentions to have tables showing the number of participants and medals for the nation, by sport and by games, but these were not completed past 1908 or so in most cases. See United States at the Summer Olympics for an example. I think it will be very difficult (or at least, time consuming!) to complete these, so I would suggest we start with something more modest. The "Medals by Games" and "Medals by sport" tables I put on those Winter pages are actually fairly easy to generate. I have an Excel spreadsheet with all the winter medal tables broken by sport, so I can crank out those pages very quickly. I intend to do the same for the summer medal tables. Would anybody object if I re-wrote many of those articles so that they were more like Soviet Union at the Summer Olympics (for example)?
- Looking at Total Olympics medal count, we see that only 40 nations have won 60 or more medals all-time, which means that 92 nations have won between 1 and 53 medals. That's a somewhat arbitrary cut-off point, but I think it is manageable to include a full list of all medal winners for those nations on their Olympic summary pages. Some examples of where this is already done are Trinidad and Tobago at the Summer Olympics, Ireland at the Summer Olympics, and List of Olympic medalists for the Philippines (which I'd like to merge with Philippines at the Summer Olympics). As you can see, there is a wide variety of formats of those pages, and I'd like to see that standardized somehow. For nations like the USA, it would obviously be prohibitive to list all the medal winners in an article, but we can certainly link to Category:Olympic medalists for the United States (whose subcategories ought to be populated over time).
- There are about 100 nations who have never won a medal at any Games, and for those pages, I don't think it makes sense to include those aforementioned tables, with a lot of zeroes.
- The summary sport pages (such as Diving at the Summer Olympics) all have all-time medal tables, which currently link from each nation to their summary Summer or summary Winter pages as appropriate for the sport. This can continue, or be replaced by a link to a single "...at the Olympics" summary page if desired. I can easily modify the {{flagIOC}} template so that the following behaviour takes place:
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- {{flagIOC|USA}} links to United States at the Olympics
- {{flagIOC|USA|Summer}} links to United States at the Summer Olympics
- {{flagIOC|USA|Winter}} links to United States at the Winter Olympics
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- I really don't like the idea of putting the total medal counts in the infoboxes, which was Nyttend's main addition to the original template. I just think that makes that section very uncluttered. Does anyone agree? I had contemplated something like this when I developed the infobox template, but decided that the middle section should be used for per-Games pages only and the only parts of the infobox that ought to be on the summary pages were the top and bottom (appearances) sections. We need to find some sort of consensus on what looks best, so that we can merge to a single infobox template again. It will be awkward to maintain a parallel set of templates.
Comments? Andrwsc 20:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- OK, so here's what I think:
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- I like the idea of just a single page, and double where applicable. I haven't thought this through, though, so don't take this as a finalized "vote."
- No objection.
- I don't think we should have a cut-off point per se, but I think editors will realize when there are too many names on a page! Your cut-off point, though, seems reasonable.
- No tables for non-winning nations. Although they definitely deserve pages. Even nations that have never competed could get pages. It's a possibility, but I don't know if there's info out there about non-competing nations. Maybe or something of the like.
The change of Sport at the season Olympics to ...at the Olympics may be controversial. I think if the move is made, it should be along with "Nation at the Olympics" changes too. The problem I have is that some sports have been contested in each of the two seasons. Plus, it seems right to specify which Olympic games they are a part of. Like I said, I'll sit on it.I misunderstood. I think a link to Nation at the Olympics would be in order, given that pages are switched to those locations.- Somehow, I do like the idea of total medal counts. It seems reasonable, and gives some sort of overall number on which to base the nation's participation. I say keep them.
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- Totally agree. We just have to eventually reach a decision on which nations deserve a single "...at the Olympics" or double "...at the Season Olympics" articles.
- Hmmm... Yes, those two medal tables are far easier to insert than the per-year tables with competitors and events entered and medals. But, in my case, I've recently created (and completed almost immediately) Portugal at the Summer Olympics, and seeing all that being reverted, it's kind of frustrating. Still, I recognize my nation was easier to deal with in this issue, since I've completed all "Portugal at the YYYY Summer Olympics" and the data was far smaller than if it was the USA or Soviet Union (that leads me to think I should move Portugal at the Summer Olympics to Portugal at the Olympics and add the Winter data...).
- There's a topic here about a template I made which could include a list of all medalist by a country – here – but it wasn't commented by many. It's a matter of discussing it...
- With the above mentioned template, that could also be dealt with, by simply not putting it.
Don't have an opinion.Now that you've explained in a more analytical way, I see no obstale on doing that. The template brilliantly already comes with that possibility ;)Ditto.Yes, yes... Once again, I didn't understand it at first but I agree with keeping only a "total medal count" on the main "Country at the Olympics" infobox.
Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Hi Jared. For #5, I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting that we change the name for any of the sport articles. I'm suggesting that we have options of what the links should point to on those summary pages. For example, on Diving at the Summer Olympics, the all-time medal table shows the United States with 48 gold, China with 20, etc. My point is that those wikilinks could be set to either "Nation at the Summer Olympics" or "Nation at the Olympics". We have the technology to do either. All the editor has to do is choose to add "Summer" in the call to the {{FlagIOC}} template or not.
- For #6, I offer a compromise. Take a look at Belarus at the Olympics (for example), which uses Nyttend's modified infobox. In my opinion, the large section with total/summer/winter medal counts is overkill and not terribly attractive because of the three sets of boxes. If we want to maintain medal counts on these "summary" pages, then I suggest we only have a single set of counts. If the infobox is on a "... at the Olympics" page, then the total count would be used. If the infobox is on a "... at the season Olympics" page, the the appropriate subtotal would be used. In all cases, the first column would have a link to the appropriate count page. I think I can do this as an extension to the existing infobox template without having to create a new one. But I still don't like the three sets of counts, especially where unnecessary (e.g. look at Chad at the Olympics) Andrwsc 00:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- One page or two ought to depend on size of pages; if one, both Summer and Winter should redirect to it; if two, the basic should be a disambig to the two. Where to draw the line, of course, is the tough question.
- I'd say add the tables you want right to begin with (the "medals by sport" overall table is definitely a plus) and let the more extensive tables grow. They only go through 1908 at this point because that's as far as I've gotten adding detailed results (I'm working on 1912 at the moment). Portugal is a beautiful example of what I'd like all of them to look like eventually. The number of competitors the country sent to each Games is, in my opinion, a very important piece of information. I could do without the number of events entered and especially the number of entries, but I like being able to look at the Portugal at the Summer Olympics page and being able to tell when Portugal won its first medal in judo.
- I think a list of all medal winners for each nation would make sense. If the list is small enough, it could be on the main page. If the list is medium-sized, it could be a separate article, linked from the main page. If the list is huge (really, probably only the US and USSR), it could be broken into a few lists by sport. The Philippines one, for example, could definitely be merged.
- If the tables are of all zeroes, text would be a better way of saying it. But if the number of participants is included, the table is nice. Also, the table gives an easy visual way of telling when the nation competed and when it didn't.
- Wouldn't this just be a consequence of #1?
- Going with "undecided" on this one. -- Jonel | Speak 00:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Jonel, I fully agree with your per-sport tables as the goal for all pages, and I certainly don't want to undo the excellent work that Parutakupiu put into completing the Portugal page! However, the "work in progress" countries don't make good stubs. I'd prefer to see that data added all at once rather than have incomplete tables for extended periods of time.
- I think that number of participating athletes and number of medals is wholly sufficient. I find number of events and entries to be a bit too much detail, and will certainly be a bear to complete! Andrwsc 01:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Future editors: please, drop out at least the "entries" column! What a dull it was to complete that. The "events" column was also a bore, but I recognize some importance about it. But the most important are really the "competitors" and the medals. I would've ended so much faster "my" page if those columns were dropped out. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I've already been deleting "entries" in places, when I've edited pages that have had it. There is some usefulness in it, but it's far too much work for what it's worth. "Events" I'm ambivalent about, so whatever you guys decide is fine with me. As for the works in progress, I guess you could just comment out the incomplete ones and they could be uncommented when finished. Doesn't undo any work, I can keep adding as I go, and the display isn't full of half-finished tables. -- Jonel | Speak 01:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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Olympic Games FAR
Olympic Games has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Sandy (Talk) 04:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
International Boxing Association
i used to have an impression that the International Boxing Association (IBA) is the same as Amateur International Boxing Association (AIBA). the latter's official website also calls itself International Boxing Association. the former according to the article is not amateur. i can't seem to find an article for AIBA. can anyone help me? coz i'm supposed to link AIBA to some boxing articles and i made a mistake linking to IBA. thanks. --RebSkii 19:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- From what I've read, here's the deal:
- The International Boxing Association that you referred to in your comment (the one with the Wiki page) is a totally different association and has nothing to do with the one that governs boxing in the Olympics. The one you're referring to, the AIBA, actually once stood for Association Internationale de Boxe Amateur, but today, the word Amateur has been dropped. Hence, it is still abbreviated as AIBA, but it is called the International Boxing Association in English, and is most likely unrelated to the other one above. So if you want to link Olympics boxing pages to something, AIBA is what you want, and FYI, there's no Wiki page for it. → JARED (t) 20:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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- i just made one, however, i titled it the wrong way Amateur International Boxing Association it should have been titled otherwise. and a disambiguation page should be made for this. i don't know how to do it, so if you or anyone here can help me, that would be very much appreciated. --RebSkii 17:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
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- the International Boxing Association (the amateur one) article has been moved as per an administrator's suggestion. thanks JP06035. --RebSkii 21:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
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Reconfigured categories and WP template
Hello, people. After creating another Olympics-related article (one redlink less!) I noticed that the project's template {{OlympicsWikiProject}} had a glitch on the category inclusion - it included the banner category on the template page only (correct) but it also "noincluded" the wikiproject category for the individual articles where it would be transcluded (wrong). I suppose it was meant to be put the <includeonly></includeonly>
tags so that this latter category would appear on the articles pages themselves, as obvious. That's what I did. I also created a new subcategory - Category:WikiProject Sports Olympics articles where all the ones who have the project template would be directed. I'm still trying to devise something more out of this matter, though. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Diving events at the YYYY Summer Olympics
Hello all! How was your Christimas and New Year's celebrations? I hope they were great. And I see Andrwsc's back on the "job" so... welcome! :)
I just wanted to inform you that, in the past days, I've been creating the event-specific articles for the Olympic diving. I've started with 1912 (1904 and 1908 were already created but I want to change its structure to resemble the related pages) and have created every diving event page until 1960, so far. In parallel, the nations table at the main sport article (Diving at the Summer Olympics) is being updated with the participating nations and other figures and internal links were added in the events table, too.
If you want to have a look, go ahead and comment on my edits or make any suggestions as to improve them. On a general basis, the articles are all standardized, but some might differ on the display of certain info; I'll try to correct that towards the end. To improve guidance inside the different diving events' pages, I've created year-specific event vertical boxes, like Andrwsc suggested here but a decision wasn't made about it, so I was bold and headed on with it. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Parutakupiu! And yes, I have been back at it again... ;)
- I have noticed your work on the diving pages -- this is very good work! I do like your event navigation boxes too. I have a couple of suggestions... First, I think the "Participating nations" sections on the summary "Sport at the Olympics" pages would be more informative if the actual number of athletes for each nation were listed in those tables, rather than just an "X" for participated or blank/dash for not. Second, I noticed you are using {{cite web}} for the reference to the official reports which are PDF files on the AAF web site. I think that {{cite book}} is more appropriate. That template still has the url parameter to provide the web link, but those sources really are better classified as books instead of web pages. Look at how I formatted the reference at Canoeing at the 1924 Summer Olympics for an example. Also, starting in the 80s (I think), some of the official reports also have ISBN numbers, so "cite book" is definitely more appropriate for them. Hope this helps! Andrwsc 18:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks! Glad you liked it. As for your suggestions I agree with both and will implement tehm on the following edits I make ;) Good to have you back, again. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 19:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, 2 or 3 events for the Diving don't make the boxes actually that vertical :P But you'll see the nice and true appearance with the Athletics ;) Thanks! Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Here are a couple of examples I made before the holidays to see which I liked. I used athletics because it is the largest sport by number of events, so would be close to the "worst case". See User:Andrwsc/Test2 for a very vertical format and User:Andrwsc/Test3 for one that puts men & women side by side. (I think that Parutakupiu might have noticed that one. ;) Andrwsc 00:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Indeed I did. I hope you don't mind, since you didn't have the chance to "officialy debut" that template before my patience to wait for a decision ended :P
For me it was right down obvious that this version - User:Andrwsc/Test3 - was the best: the list of events isn't repeated for each gender hence we get a smaller vertical box without the risk of overlapping sections below. ~~
- Indeed I did. I hope you don't mind, since you didn't have the chance to "officialy debut" that template before my patience to wait for a decision ended :P
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- No, of course not! I'm still not 100% sold on that style, however. I think the "men" and "women" strings might be a bit too close to each other, for example. I was planning to experiment with a few things, but got distracted by other stuff in the past couple of weeks! I think I'll still tinker with it though. Andrwsc 01:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- The largest athletics one is 1912, here's what that one looks like - User:Jonel/AthleticsAt1912SummerOlympics Test1. Used the same format as diving and Andrwsc's Test3 (women would just mean adding a column). That's 30 distinct events, which is the worst of any sport at any year, as far as I can tell. I played around with a couple more (#2 uses the format I've been using for recent templates; #3 is an ugly thing attempting to limit verbiage due to only men competing; #4 is trying to get the thing onto one screen by using types of events, but is both a) ugly as hell and b) not easy to scale to men/women), but I think this format's the best I've got. -- Jonel | Speak 01:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- @Andrwsc: I quite like, if not (a lot!) but that proximity detail also came across my mind and I even thought of how to solve that, but never got my hands on it. You work on that, and any changes you might do, please warn me so the diving templates I used are updated accordingly.
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- @Jonel: Now imagine that Test1 box double-sized because of another list just for women's events. I'm 100% supportive of User:Andrwsc/Test3. #4, though noteworthy, seems to clutter up the box when it's purpose is to help people navigating easily through a sport's events ;) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yeah, I agree that looks the best. I am convinced that these navigation boxes must be located at the top of event pages, because that way you can quickly jump from event to event without having to scroll to the bottom. (Similarly, that's one reason why I put the "Appearances" section in the nation infoboxes, so you could jump from year to year and get the quick details at the top of the page.) One consequence of being at the top means that it needs to co-exist with the intro paragraph, list of medalists, etc. and that means that it needs to have a fairly vertical format.
- I made one quick edit to User:Andrwsc/Test3 to add spacing between the three columns of text and I think this might be good enough to make "standard". Andrwsc 01:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- (pull left) Since I haven't been here for a little bit, here's what I have to say: I like the diving templates, but I also like Andrwsc's #2, the entirely vertical one. Somnething is more appealing about that one, rather than having men and women right next to each other. I don't know, maybe it's just me. It just seems more neat, but the other is shorter. Also take into consideration that there really aren't that many events--even in recent times--for sports. Swimming and athletics are the biggies for summer, and even then they aren't that big. I advocate a straight column, but don't care either way. → JARED (t) 02:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- The main pro is not even the fact it becomes shorter this way, it's the guidance improvement in the box itself, where you don't have to scroll up-and-down to get to the event pages for men and women. I think this is what pushes me more into the "parallel gender" box type. I also like the other option but it's mostly on a aesthetic basisParutakupiu talk || contribs 02:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- Another note - I updated User:Andrwsc/Test3 again to reflect what the event article names should be. Many existing pages need to be renamed for consistent use of case, etc. I thought I should do this in case anybody pulled this page as is to replace {{AthleticsAt2004SummerOlympics}}. Andrwsc 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Gosh, so many redlinks on that template... Now I know what you mean when you talked about closing the 2004 Games events' articles before the 2008 rush comes in. 18:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks for that! Andrwsc 21:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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UPDATE — I'll probably finish with creating the missing diving events pages in two or three days (avergage of one Games per day). After that, I'll retouch with extra info and assure consistency. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 22:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Sources?
Hello all. As I mentioned to Andrwsc, there is a sequence of articles missing that I was meaning to help with: the event-specific articles for the Swimming events at Sydney 2000. Surprisingly enough, though, I have encountered great difficulty finding an online source for the results. The medalists are very easy to find out, but the complete results, which would serve for us to create entries similar to those made for the events in the 2004 Games, those seem to be very difficult to come by. Arguably, I might be somewhat inexperienced in retrieving this particular kind of information, so perhaps I could get a little help in finding those sources? Incidentally, I was able to find the results for other swimming events as far back as 2003, but going back all the way to 2000 seems to be too much for the more "mainstream" websites out there. Redux 21:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Redux. I - and plenty of others - use the official Olympic reports as main source of data. They are stored under PDF format here. Sidney 2000's swimming results can be seen at this link. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 21:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
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- For later Games, the official report is really all you need for results. They can be found at the Amateur Athletic Foundation of Los Angeles website (linked by Parutakupiu above), at least up through the 2002 Olympics. Bill Mallon has an excellent series of books with complete (or at least, as complete at possible) results from the earliest Games, though those books can be hard to find sometimes. There are a couple websites with fairly complete results listings (the best of which I've found as yet is, unfortunately, in Polish), but for Sydney 2000 the official report is easily available and useful. -- Jonel | Speak 00:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Excellent. Thank you both. I have already retrieved the pdf file for the Swimming results, and will begin creating the event-specific articles for the Sydney 2000 Swimming competition. I'll probably be following the order on Swimming at the 2000 Summer Olympics. Again, many thanks for the references. :-) Redux 11:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Hi Redux, before you continue much further, I urge for you to look at how we're trying to format results pages now, specifically to use the {{flagIOCathlete}} and related templates for rendering of the flags and country codes. I see that you've started work on Swimming at the 2000 Summer Olympics - Men's 50 metre freestyle using the 2004 page as a prototype for visual appearance. Might I suggest you look at how a page like Canoeing at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's C-1 500 metres is formatted. The advantages of using that template are significant -- you automatically get the correct flag image and size without having to hard-code the image file, and you also get an automatic link to the appropriate "Nation at the 2000 Summer Olympics" article, which is one thing we want to do. Links to United States after a swimmer's name are far less useful than links to United States at the 2004 Summer Olympics, for example.
- If it would help, I could spend some time on your work in progress to show you what I mean, or I could stay out of the way, if you prefer. Please let me know how you'd like some help, if any, but I still strongly request that you try to use these templates for any new pages you create. You can also look at the recent work of Parutakupiu for diving events in past Games, where he has also been using the flagIOC templates effectively.
- As far as the 2004 pages are concerned, one of my goals is to bring them all up to the current style in time for the 2008 Games, when we anticipate a boatload of new editors to tackle the Olympic results pages for a few months before they move on to other parts of Wikipedia, leaving a few of us hard-core Olympic nuts left to clean up. I really want the 2004 pages to be rock-solid so that they can serve as effective prototypes. I have already updated a few of the 2004 sports (sailing, canoeing, triathlon, diving) but obviously there is still a lot to do.
- Thanks! Andrwsc 18:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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Ah, I see. Since I was almost done with that article, I concluded adding the results. I'll see the code you indicated and hopefully, upgrade the page. Redux 12:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Would you object if I edited the page? I have some tools that assist with this kind of re-formatting quickly. I'd like to get one swimming event done so that it serves as a prototype for others. Andrwsc 19:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Please, do! Any help is greatly appreciated! We should all pull in to make this and all articles the best that they can be. :) Redux 21:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Have done! I've taken a first pass at it and updated all the swimmers to use the flagIOCathlete template. This actually corrected three flags which were different in 2000, plus also created the links to the Nation at the 2000 Summer Olympics pages. I also changed the nav box format as per discussion elsewhere on this talk page.
- I'd still like to make another pass at this page to fix a couple of things. First, I find it difficult to see the times since they are not all lined up. I used tables on the canoeing pages to solve this problem, so I will try to do the same thing here. Second, I find it verbose and unnecessary that the heat rankings effectively duplicate the same list of 80 swimmers, just organized by time instead of heat. I think this can be fixed by adding a "heat rank" column with the "QS" indicators for the top 16 to the heat listings.
- Please don't take these comments as a criticism of your work, because that's not intended! I realize you used the 2004 page as a prototype and that's exactly how it was done. My goal is to go back and fix up the 2004 pages the same way.
- One other comment, and this is for anybody, is what should we do with the "Records" section at the top of the page. I can see how it was useful for Wikipedia to show for the 2004 pages, but I'm not sure what we should do for all of the past "Swimming at the yyyy Summer Olympics" pages. Do we want to include the records in effect at that time, or should we just delete this small section altogether?
- Andrwsc 22:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Like I said, we should make the articles as good as they can be. I'm not starting any of the remaining articles for the Sydney 2000 swimming events until we've come to a definitive version for the 50m freestyle article, which I will then use as a model after which the rest of the articles will be created.
As for the records table, I do find it useful to show what were the OR and WR standing at the time of the competition, which is, after all, what the athletes were looking to overcome at the time. Many sports almanacs feature this kind of information when giving results for specific events. Perhaps it's just a question of making it clearer that we are conveying the records in existence at the time — and which, especially for the earlier games, might have been surpassed a long time ago.
Other than that, I believe the Heats' general ranking does serve a purpose. True, it repeats the results given in each Heat's listing, but it provides an easier-to-read larger picture of the first stage of competition. When we have +10 Heats listed, it is somewhat difficult to visualize how the athletes did when compared with those who participated in other Heats (which is actually what the competition is about: each athlete is competing with all the other 79 for a berth in the next stage, and not just with the other 7 in his or her heat). Example: it may be difficult to read from the separate listings how an athlete who placed last in his or her Heat was actually in the top 20 of the general rankings (only those who qualified are distinguished easily, because we "mark" them with the big "Q"). An eventual "heat rank" would help, but it wouldn't be as easy for the reader to visualize, since s/he'd have to go back and forth through the separate heats' listings — so by the time you find out who was 20th overall, you don't even remember if you saw who was the 19th place. :-) Redux 02:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- Like I said, we should make the articles as good as they can be. I'm not starting any of the remaining articles for the Sydney 2000 swimming events until we've come to a definitive version for the 50m freestyle article, which I will then use as a model after which the rest of the articles will be created.
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- Hmm, on the other hand, the current layout makes it more difficult to find how a particular swimmer fared overall. You have to remember the name & time from the heats, then scan down a different list to find the same person again. It just seems quite redundant to me. Let's see what it looks like without the second list and decide from there. Andrwsc 18:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Why not simply do both? Put an overall rank in the the heat results to make it easy to find out how the fourth-place finisher in heat 1 did overall, and have the overall list to see who was .01 seconds better than your favorite Laotian swimmer. It's not like we're running out of paper here. -- Jonel | Speak
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- My concern was not with the amount of space, but with the readability of the resultant page. I prefer to see as much of each event as possible together in one table, instead of multiple presentations of the same data. For example, look at Canoeing at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's slalom C-1, where I show the whole event in a single table instead of different tables for the preliminary round, semifinal and final. A similar approach has been taken with Diving at the 1984 Summer Olympics - Men's 10 metre platform etc. On the other hand, Athletics at the 1912 Summer Olympics - Men's decathlon repeats the points data after each of the 10 events. That seems like overkill to me - I wonder if there is a better way to present that? Nonetheless, I have reformatted Swimming at the 2000 Summer Olympics - Men's 50 metre freestyle to include the heat rankings after the heat results, so I encourage comments on that. Andrwsc 22:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm having a little bit of a problem with the formatting (whichever version) of the Sydney 2000 Men's 50m freestyle event because of the gold medal tie, which meant no silver medal and sikipping "straight" to bronze. For instance, when I implemented the new medal board, the word "none", which I wrote in the silver medal slot, is showing followed by two brackets, which is likely a side effect of the fact that the template wasn't created to accomodate this kind of input. I'm probably missing something silly, so it should take a fresh perspective to fix that. Redux 13:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks, Jonel. :-) Redux 21:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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Greenlight
The 50m freestyle article looks good. Is this the final version, or are we considering further adaptations? If we have arrived at a final version, I will start using it to create similar articles for the other (many) events. Only one thingy: this particular event (men's 50m freestyle at Sydney) had a gold medal tie, which resulted in there not being a silver medal; originally, I had written a "none" line on the medal board for the silver medal (whose code Jonel fixed, etc), but this seems to have been eliminated when the board format was reviewed. Was this done on purpose or was it accidental and that line should be restored? Redux 14:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've made a couple more changes to the page. First, I added the references (essential!). You should be able to re-use these with only minor modification for the other events, namely use the corrent link for the swimrankings.net page for the specific event. The book reference can be used unchanged for all swimming results pages; there is no event-specific portion of that reference markup.
- The other change was to introduce new templates for the small medalist table at the top of the page (as per ongoing discussion below), and this goes to your question too. I had removed the "none" for silver as I thought it wasn't necessary here, especially with the explanatory line of prose. We need the "none" in the main page 'matrix table', as there has to be a table cell in that format and I don't think it looks good left blank. On this table, there is no need to include it.
- Lastly, I'm still not 100% convinced of the necessity of the heat rankings list, even though I included it with the table format. We had a bit of a discussion before, but now that we can see how it looks, I'd still like some opinions. If you really want to go ahead and include that similar section for other event pages, then be bold and go for it, but I think the page is suitably readable without it and that would save you some time. Andrwsc 19:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Few things -- I don't think there's any need to make the font size larger for the heat headings... simply bolding them will do. The periods with the place numbers also seem extraneous. I also think the table looks better with class=wikitable, but that might be just me. -- Jonel | Speak 21:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- The font size increase was supposed to match the visual effect of an equivalent header (i.e. ===Heat 1===) but that could go. I had forgot to ask for comments about not using the wikitable class. Now that you bring it up, I think wikitable is mandatory where there are lots of columns (e.g. at Triathlon at the 2004 Summer Olympics). However, in this case, I thought it looked better without the table cell borders mostly because it's viewed not as one big table of results, but as a series of races with 8 swimmers each. The heat headers aren't as prominent, and the "QS" and "QF" labels don't stand out as much either. As for the periods after the place numbers, I totally agree with you when wikitable is used, but without the table cell borders, I thought it looked better without.
- So, to make it easier to comment, look at this version versus this version. (If we go with the wikitable one, I will remove the periods with the place numbers at that time.) Andrwsc 21:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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Olympic Games
Not to bring another issue into the mix, but that's exactly what I'm going to do (☺)! I have been handling the FARC of Olympic Games for a few weeks now, but it seems that the page hasn't gotten far. I've edited some sections and added a lot of sources, but many sections need re-writes. I began to outline some stuff that needs fixing on the talk page. Anyway, if anyone has any spare time, could you look at that article and maybe choose a section to fix up. I'd hate to lose it, but I have other responsibilities that hinder me from doing it by myself. → JARED (t) 20:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- As you know I'm currently working on the Diving at the Summer Olympics per-year events, but free time is what I have most now, and if it's a subject of the utmost importance I'll be glad to help, in any way possible. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 21:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
WR+OR tables
This new topic is about an idea I had when reading this:
One other comment, and this is for anybody, is what should we do with the "Records" section at the top of the page. I can see how it was useful for Wikipedia to show for the 2004 pages, but I'm not sure what we should do for all of the past "Swimming at the yyyy Summer Olympics" pages. Do we want to include the records in effect at that time, or should we just delete this small section altogether?
Andrwsc 22:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should leave that data, as I believe it's a good reference for the progression of both Olympic (OR) and World (WR) records (the latter at the time of the Olympics). What I figured was, basically, creating a template (User:Parutakupiu/Tests6) that holds simultaneously the WR and OR throughout the entire existence of an Olympic event. But, thanks to conditional statements, it will only show the current records at the time of a certain Olympiad, depending on a single parameter.
EXAMPLES:
Using the example of Swimming at the 2000 Summer Olympics - Men's 50 metre freestyle (the one tested on the template): it was first competed at the 1988 Summer Olympics but sooner than that, worldwide. Therefore, if we assign the value 1988 to the parameter gamesyear, the table will show the WR before those Games but nothing as the OR, since it's its Olympic debut:
{{User:Parutakupiu/Tests6|gamesyear=1988}}
World Record | ![]() |
22.23 | ![]() |
25 March 1988 |
Olympic Record | New Olympic event |
In the 1992 Summer Olympics, a OR already existed (from 1988) and the WR had changed since. So, if we assign the year 1992, we'll have:
{{User:Parutakupiu/Tests6|gamesyear=1992}}
World Record | ![]() |
21.81 | ![]() |
24 March 1990 |
Olympic Record | ![]() |
22.14 | ![]() |
24 September 1988 |
And for the following Summer Olympiads:
{{User:Parutakupiu/Tests6|gamesyear=1996}}
World Record | ![]() |
21.81 | ![]() |
24 March 1990 |
Olympic Record | ![]() |
21.91 | ![]() |
30 July 1992 |
{{User:Parutakupiu/Tests6|gamesyear=2000}}
World Record | ![]() |
21.64 | ![]() |
16 June 2000 |
Olympic Record | ![]() |
21.91 | ![]() |
30 July 1992 |
{{User:Parutakupiu/Tests6|gamesyear=2004}}
World Record | ![]() |
21.64 | ![]() |
16 June 2000 |
Olympic Record | ![]() |
21.91 | ![]() |
30 July 1992 |
Notice that I use the {{FlagIOCathlete}} template for the OR holders, and a similar non-template structure for the WR holders.
So this is what I thought up in order to preserve this data. I haven't foreseen if this can be easily adapted for other Olympic events, but I believe it can - with or without much more work. The thing is there would have to be one template per event.
What do you think? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 02:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- I definitely like having the records as they stood just prior to the event at the event article. I've been doing the Olympic record in prose for the 1912 athletics articles I've been doing recently, especially since so many of them were broken, usually more than once during an event. The format you've got there looks good to me. As for the number of events, many Olympic sports have no Olympic records -- swimming and athletics do, of course, and they're the ones with the most events, but really it's only those two, archery, cycling, shooting, weightlifting and speed skating that have official records ([2]). I think archery is the only one that has weird things happen with the records, so given enough legwork, that should work for most everything. -- Jonel | Speak 03:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, considering amount of sports with official records (even though athletics and swimming are the "heavyweights") it seems a reasonable job. I'll take care of that, if you people want it to go ahead. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 04:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Gee, I seem to have a knack of starting whole new discussion threads from extra comments I throw into previous threads! Anyway, after reading your comments and thinking about it for a bit, here is what I think.
- The original list of records was on the 2004 pages when it was a current event, but now those pages have evolved into after-the-fact results lists. Therefore, we need to come up with a solution that works for all past Games articles too. I think what I found potentially confusing by just having the small table of records was that no context was given. I think perhaps all it needs is a sentence or two of prose text around the table — maybe something like: Prior to this competition, the existing world and Olympic records were: <then show the table, then another sentence like:>
Mark Spitz (USA) broke both records in the heats and again in the final. (or whatever)
- One thing we really need is a complete list of Olympic records for those half-dozen or so sports that maintain them. There are a handful of records pages elsewhere on Wikipedia — see Category:Athletics records and Category:Swimming records. (There is also an expected that is redlinked from {{Records}}.) These sets of pages are incomplete and desperately need better article names!! Anyway, whether it is a section in Swimming at the Summer Olympics or a separate , I think we ought to get these tabulated soon.
- Parutakupiu, I think your meta-table is quite clever, but I think it might be overkill for this task. These tables ought to be "write once" Wiki markup that won't need future updating after each event article is written so I don't see why you need to use conditionals and other parser functions. Just a suggestion!
- I would make a change to the formatting. I think we should be consistent with our usage of the three letter IOC country codes for wikilinks to the "Nation at the year Olympics" articles. Therefore, I would spell out the nation in full for the location part of your tables (i.e. Moscow, Russia and Barcelona, Spain. I think I'd also drop the flag from that section too. There is a movement afoot in Wikipedia to eliminate flag icons (see WP:FLAGCRUFT). One administrator actually completely disabled the {{flagicon}} template for a short time before it was reversed. I do agree with some of the sentiment expressed there, but I also firmly believe that flag icons in the Olympic context are a well-known and firmly established presentation style even outside of Wikipedia. Therefore, I think we should stick to using the flagIOC templates for Olympic-specific instances but not introduce superfluous flag icons where they are redundant.
- The original list of records was on the 2004 pages when it was a current event, but now those pages have evolved into after-the-fact results lists. Therefore, we need to come up with a solution that works for all past Games articles too. I think what I found potentially confusing by just having the small table of records was that no context was given. I think perhaps all it needs is a sentence or two of prose text around the table — maybe something like: Prior to this competition, the existing world and Olympic records were: <then show the table, then another sentence like:>
- Andrwsc 17:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- Gee, I seem to have a knack of starting whole new discussion threads from extra comments I throw into previous threads! Anyway, after reading your comments and thinking about it for a bit, here is what I think.
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- Lol, you really dissect everything :P Perhaps you're right on the record-updating issue: it would be far easier to just write a non-templated record table on the event article itself. My idea was to simplify the display of this data by means of a template and a single parameter, as you can understand. Anyway, it was a "test" and I wanted to read comments about its validity to proceed, and then formatting suggestions, or be replaced by a better alternative.
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Number of participants
I see that Jared has added a parameter to {{FlagIOC}} to render the number of competitors for each nation in parenthesis after the name, as seen on 2006 Winter Olympics. This is really useful, and I encourage anybody who wants to take up the challenge to help complete these numbers for all past Games, and to also add the numbers to the appropriate "Nation at the year Olympics" page (by using the "competitors=" parameter to the infobox, and "sports=" if possible). I realize this is about 3000 edits, but it is very useful information and would greatly help for the summary "Nation at the Olympics" articles to have this data too. Andrwsc 21:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Event page formatting
This is a continuation of a thread or two above, but I thought it would be a good idea to bring it out to a new topic. Specifically, I'd like to get consensus on how we format the individual event pages.
Race results - table or wiki list?
First, I'd like to see some comments on how race results are shown. One option is to simply use wiki markup like "#" for numbering, as shown in this edit of Swimming at the 2000 Summer Olympics - Men's 50 metre freestyle. I have taken the liberty of reformatting using tables (as shown in this edit], in case it is not top edit). The tradeoff here is that the first format is easier to create, but the second one (I think) is clearer to read because the times are lined up, tie results are handled properly (i.e. you can skip over numbers in ranked lists) and the TOC can be shown because heat headings are embedded within the table. The downside is that table markup isn't as obvious to a casual editor. My question to this WikiProject is: should we standardize on the more complex approach, in an effort to gain better visual presentation, or do we want to make it easier for new editors to make these pages?
- Table. Much better look. Especially helpful for ties. New editors are certainly welcome to use numbered lists; it's pretty easy to change the formatting for them. -- Jonel | Speak 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Table. Having the heat times and ranks all aligned because they have their own column - instead of letting the swimmers' name length deciding that - is much more important, in my opinion, to the goal which is to display the data in the best and clearest way. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Medalist summary - which table format?
Second is the way in which we present the small summary table of medalists at the top of the page. There are several formats out there, and I really think we ought to converge upon one. Here are some options:
1. (from Athletics at the 1900 Summer Olympics - Men's 100 metres
Gold | Silver | Bronze |
![]() United States (USA) |
![]() United States (USA) |
![]() Australia (AUS) |
2. (from Athletics at the 1912 Summer Olympics - Men's shot put
Event | Gold | Silver | Bronze |
Men's shot put | ![]() United States (USA) |
![]() United States (USA) |
![]() United States (USA) |
3. (from Wrestling at the 1904 Summer Olympics - Men's freestyle light flyweight
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![]() |
![]() United States (USA) |
![]() United States (USA) |
![]() United States (USA) |
4. (from Canoeing at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's C-1 500 metres)
Gold | ![]() Germany (GER) |
Silver | ![]() Spain (ESP) |
Bronze | ![]() Russia (RUS) |
5. (from Weightlifting at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's 105 kg)
Gold![]() |
![]() Russia (RUS) |
Silver![]() |
![]() Hungary (HUN) |
Bronze![]() |
![]() Ukraine (UKR) |
...and several others, but mostly those haven't been updated in a while.
Here are my thoughts. I prefer the "vertical" format (#4 and #5) for a couple of reasons. I think it looks better for events in which there are teams of 2-4 people (for example, Canoeing at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's K-2 1000 metres). Also, you don't have to deal with different column widths for the three medalists. I had been using format #4 for a while, but after seeing Jonel's usage of format #3, I switched to format #5 in a few places. I think format #2 suffers because the entire Event column is redundant to the pages on which these tables will be seen.
Anyway, if we get consensus here (perhaps on #5 as a hybrid of all the styles), I'd like to start adopting these everywhere applicable, perhaps creating a template or three to assist.
- I think I've used 1, 2, and 3 recently... The horizontal format is nice because it's consistent with the sport pages (which is why 2 is what I'm using at the moment). I'd prefer them without the medal images. The point about redundancy of the event name is well-taken; I'd say #1 is the way to go. -- Jonel | Speak 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I wanted to speak to you about this and I'm glad Andrwsc mentioned it now (always you! :)) - I kinda like the horizontal display (it ocuppies space in a better way), but I also agree with Andrwsc that for non-single medalists situations the vertical display is free of column-width changes. As opposed to Jonel, I've been recently using #4 on all diving summary tables because I took that version from the events pages at Diving at the 2004 Summer Olympics (edited by Andrwsc), but I personally prefer #5 also. Better looking, indeed. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is how a three-person event would be rendered each way:
Gold | ![]() Great Britain (GBR) |
Silver | ![]() Ukraine (UKR) |
Bronze | ![]() Denmark (DEN) |
or
Gold | Silver | Bronze |
![]() Shirley Robertson Sarah Webb Sarah Ayton |
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![]() Christina Otzen |
I prefer the former, and I guess I'd like to use the same style for 1 and 2 person events too. Beyond 4-6 people, the vertical listing / horizontal medalist style might be better, but I have an idea for that. More to come in a future discussion, but I have some ideas of how to treat team sports differently from the medal summary & medal table approach that works so well for individual multi-event sports. Andrwsc 01:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- The first table, definetely. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I was experimenting with some templates and came up with {{OlympicGoldMedalist}} etc. (see example usage here). If we get consensus on the vertical format, this would greatly simplify its implementation. We can decide upon the medal icon etc. independantly (e.g. #5 vs. #4), as it would only take 3 edits to update all instances at the same time.... Andrwsc 19:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, So here's my take. I agree with Jonel, in that I like # 1, 2, and 3. Somehow the horizontal is more appealing to me. I don't know why, but it just is. After ruling out #3 because of the icons, which I agree really aren't too appealing and needed, and ruling out #2 because of redundancy, I am left with #1. If someone could really convince me to use #4, I would do it, but for now, I am more partial to #1. I see how it could get overwhelming with the number of people, but it looks so empty with only one or two people... and the multi-person horiz. table above doesn't look half bad.... → JARED (t) 21:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- As far as spatial aesthetics (if it exists) goes, the horizontal table also appeals a bit more to me. It stretches from one side of the page to the other. But I also like the vertical box and the way it can take multiple names in a more fluid manner. I'm growing divided on this - I leave it to you to decide. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 02:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Event series boxes
Lastly, and I think we have probably closed on this issue, but I'd like to get some feedback on some more examples of the new navigation box style. I added a few more sports, as there are some interesting situations:
- User:Andrwsc/Test3, intended to replace {{AthleticsAt2004SummerOlympics}} — are we all ok with this?
- {{SwimmingAt2000SummerOlympics}} — similar style, but event names are longer so the series box is wider. Is this still ok?
- See this template's talk page for a suggested alternative.
- {{CanoeingAt2004SummerOlympics}} — also a similar style, but more differences between men's and women's programs. Also uses an intermediate color shade for a sub-heading to separate the two disciplines. How does this look?
- {{SailingAt2004SummerOlympics}} — makes more substantial use of the sub-headings as the men's/women's/open programs have very little overlap
- Addendum: I've already changed the sailing template as per Jonel's suggestion below. this edit is described above, to compare with the current one
- {{WeightliftingAt2004SummerOlympics}} — totally abandons the men/women side-by-side format in favor of a completely vertical format, but I don't see any alternative. Perhaps I could use the old names for each weight class (e.g. "bantamweight" for men's 56 kg class and women's 48 kg class, etc.) but these names seem to have been abandoned in recent Games and the numeric name is the only identifier for the weight class now. I still think the template looks fine, but comments would be welcome.
- See this template's talk page for a suggested alternative.
As always, thanks for thoughtful feedback! Andrwsc 23:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- The side-by-side looks good. With swimming, the events can be abbreviated, which will help the width. The sub-heading from canoeing is fine, when there are multiple disciplines. I'd say stick with the side-by-side link even for things like sailing and weightlifting, where there isn't much overlap. It won't change the length much, but it's a better look and makes everything more consistent. I'd say use it even if there's only one gender (i.e., early games or the equestrian "open" style). -- Jonel | Speak 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I've modified the sailing template as per notes above, but I'm at a loss how to organize the weightlifting one. Is what you have in mind? Would you sort them numerically (creating a "weave" of men/women) and/or combine 69kg onto one row even though men's 69kg is lightweight and women's 69kg is probably middle-heavyweight? Suggestions welcome! Andrwsc 01:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I'd say to sort them numerically in order to keep it organized. If the sailing box will have three columns and men/women/open already appear in a weave-like fashion (which i don't like much but it's for the good of consistency) then why not? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Hmm, I don't know. I've got both sort orders in , and the second one looks odd to me. Andrwsc 01:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- On the other side, the first one, as is, would be better if divided with gender-specific sub-headings and the weights wikilinked. But that would just go against what Jonel suggested and you applied to {{SailingAt2004SummerOlympics}}. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- You mean, exactly as {{WeightliftingAt2004SummerOlympics}} looks like now, or a variation of that? Andrwsc 01:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes. That's what I stated on my thoughts (see below). And if this style is kept it should be also applied to other weight-categorized sports (i.e. Judo). Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Let's stick with the side-by-side. Tables look very clean and organized this way.
- OK
- OK (don't see how a slightly "fatter" swimming events box would create any disturbance on the article text body)
- OK (can't see any other way of diving disciplines without drastically messing with strucuture)
- OK (no visible alternative!)
- OK (before reading your description I also thought about the traditional names, but they'd expand the box width and decentralize the weights - the most important, defining values!)
- I say: let's get to work! GREAT JOB, Andrwsc *claps* Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Let's stick with the side-by-side. Tables look very clean and organized this way.
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- Thanks for that! Andrwsc 01:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Hmm, I had another minor question about the event series boxes. Should the word "events" be in the heading? For example, look at the latest revision of {{SwimmingAt2000SummerOlympics}}. It seems a bit clearer to me. Andrwsc 21:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I personally like #1 and #3 (haha, again!). They have a small name for each event (so there's no repetition) and if needed because of multiple disciplines, separate sections of the template. That, I think it key, to separate disciplines. It's more aesthetically pleasing! Anyway, those are my choices. → JARED (t) 21:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean, Jared. We're not comparing different renderings of the same sport, but looking at different sports, each of which has it's own quirks. So I'm glad you like the athletics and canoeing boxes, but what would you do to improve the swimming, sailing, and weightlifting ones?
- I whipped up a few more easy ones last night too:
{{ArcheryAt2004SummerOlympics}}
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- {{BadmintonAt2004SummerOlympics}}
- {{CyclingAt2004SummerOlympics}}
- {{FencingAt2004SummerOlympics}} (one point of discussion about this is that I thought the word "Individual" was redundant in the event name, so I have "Foil" and "Team foil", for example, instead of "Individual foil" and "Team foil")
- {{TennisAt2004SummerOlympics}}
- {{TableTennisAt2004SummerOlympics}}
- I did a rowing one too, but didn't want to stomp on the existing template at that name just yet. All of these are fairly straightforward and are visually consistent. Of course, once we agree on how to handle weightligfting, then judo, taekwondo and wrestling follow suit. Andrwsc 21:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Well I wasn't sure whether we were shooting for just one template for consistancy, or variations based on the sport. I myself don't care, and I think that the design should fit the sport. So based on that, I give approval (straight yes/no) to the following:
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- Yes.
- No. See that talk page. Maybe that won't work, but there's too much redundancy.
- Yes.
- No. Seems weird with the columns like that. And maybe say "Mixed" instead of open.
- No. Obviously, men and women's separate sections are in order.
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- I'm not 100% sure that a "one size fits all approach" will work, but I'm trying hard for as much consistency as possible. As for your comments:
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- I agree that your version at Template talk:SwimmingAt2000SummerOlympics is a lot more visually appealing, but it sort of bends the "rule" of using sub-headings for multiple disciplines (like on the canoeing and cycling boxes). The alternative would be to use abbreviations such as "free", "back", "fly", "I.M", etc. I vote for your version, despite the "rule break".
- An earlier version of the sailing template had the "open" straddling the men & women columns (which were much closer togather). I will try to play with that. As for "open" vs. "mixed", I know that the IOC medal database uses "mixed" exclusively for all events, but for this sport, "open" is the terminology used. (Check out the Sydney results for sailing, for example.)
- I'm not sure which version of the weightlifting box you are saying "no" to. The current one does have men & women's events into separate "sections", just without the explicit sub-headings that an earlier incarnation had. I removed those headings and wikilinked "men" and "women" instead of wikilinking the weight class so that the template would be more visually consistent with the others. (Plus I right-aligned the weight classes, which looks quite nice, and is something I would do to your version of the swimming box too.) Andrwsc 00:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Now that I've thought about it, I'm OK with the sailing template. There must have been a misunderstanding on my part of the terminology. As for the Weightlifting one though, I think you misunderstood me; what I am advocating is this revision, where there are separate sections for men and women, because obviously none of the weight classes match up, so it would be foolish to do it the way it is now. The reason it works well for sailing is that there are two overlaps, which justify it. This one has none. → JARED (t) 00:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm not 100% sure that a "one size fits all approach" will work, but I'm trying hard for as much consistency as possible. As for your comments:
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- I think "foolish" might be a bit harsh! ;) The only differences I see between the current revision and the older one you link to is that in the current version, the sub-headings are removed (as they are implied by the column of "men" links and the column of "women" links), and the wikilinks themselves are applied to "men" and "women" instead of the event name. I agree with Jonel here, it is a lot more consistent to do that, even for situations where only one gender applies. Look at his {{AthleticsAt1912SummerOlympics}}, for example. Your version here is interesting. It is visually inconsistent with the others, however. Andrwsc 01:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Sorry about the choice of words, I was doing something else, so I wasn't totally focused! Anyway, you're right that the two revisions aren't too different, which is why I made the one on the talk page, but as you said, it is pretty different from the others. It does make it more compact, though. IDK. → JARED (t) 01:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- (back up left) The one sport that I foresee to be problematic, and where your solution might help, is wrestling... Multiple weight classes for men in two disciplines, and differnt classes for women in one discipline only...
- I went back to your swimming suggestion and right-aligned the distances and unbolded the sub-section headings, and I like it. Maybe it would be worth looking at an athletics template with a similar treatment, making sections out of track, road, field, and combined events. I remember somebody wanting to carve up Athletics at the 2008 Summer Olympics this way. Perhaps the style is that "real" disciplines (such as those in cycling, canoeing and wrestling) would have a bold sub-heading and a non-bold subheading would be used in cases like swimming and athletics, where it might aid readability to apply some groupings to long lists. Andrwsc 01:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yeah, so maybe do the wrestling similar to how I suggested it. Also, it may be a good idea to section them off by bolded disciplines. It seems like the way to go, especially when it comes to larger lists like athletics. (And when a discipline is too big [Swimming], then you just section it un-bolded.) I hadn't touched athletics because the list isn't that wide and repetative, but now that you bring up just straight discipline sectioning, I could reconsider that. → JARED (t) 02:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
"X" or "•"?
One thing I noticed - and I believe should be standardized soon - is the way a sport or event was present or absent at a Season Olympics. In the Olympic sports tables, the sports included in the Olympic programme of the different Games are indicated with a bolded X (e.g. X); if it's absent, nothing is written on the cell. However, on some "Sport at the Season Olympics" articles, the event tables display either bolded enlarged dots (e.g. •) or simple X's, even on disciplines of the same sport (Swimming at the Summer Olympics and Synchronized swimming at the Summer Olympics), while others don't even have one event table yet (Water polo at the Summer Olympics). What type of mark should we use? X or •?
Deriving from this, I've turned the dots on the Diving at the Summer Olympics event table as links to the various diving events along Olympic history. Do you think I did well? If yes, could it be expanded to all other tables?
To finalize, as per Andrwsc suggestion:
«(...) I think the "Participating nations" sections on the summary "Sport at the Olympics" pages would be more informative if the actual number of athletes for each nation were listed in those tables, rather than just an "X" for participated or blank/dash for not (...)»
I've done that with the diving nations table (at least, since Andrwsc warned me). Then, I conclude we should do the same with the rest, even though some editors are still putting X's or dots.
Comments are appreciated. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I prefer the bullet. The upper case X is not as aesthetically pleasing, in my opinion. The one thing I'm not completely sold on is the need to use it as a direct wikilink to the specific event page. Whatever character is used there, it's a somewhat hidden navigation method that may be useful for us keen WikiProject editors, but not natural or obvious to our audience of casual readers. If you really want to keep it, I won't delete it! But it certainly adds to the page size, and adds to the difficulty of maintaining the page, especially if you can imagine what the completed table at Athletics at the Summer Olympics will end up as. I think the cost outweighs the benefit. Andrwsc 19:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Even I wasn't really appealed by it, in aesthetical terms, but I didn't want to undo it before taking your opinions. But your arguments - which I incredibly didn't consider before now (!) - seem completely justified and I won't lose anymore time and work with it on future edits. Thanks, Andrwsc! You're a true help ;) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 19:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Bullets, certainly. As for the event links, they are useful in editing (such as when I want to open all instances of men's shot put events, for instance) but not so helpful for casual readers. As for nations, number of competitors is nice, so if you have it handy use it; if not, put a bullet and someone can come along later with numbers. -- Jonel | Speak 20:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- An idea I had that might help in your example would be to put all the event pages for the same event across multiple Games into a new category. For example, Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's shot put would be in both Category:Athletics events at the 2004 Summer Olympics and (or whatever). That would help both in editing (e.g. use AWB on that category) and for reader browsing ("hey, I'm interested to see how the shot put changed over the years"). Andrwsc 21:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- FYI, the existing Diving pages already had such a Category:Diving at the Olympics; while I created the inexistant event pages of a Year Summer Olympics, I included them on this category. It's a matter of creating equal categories for those sports/disciplines which don't have it yet. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 22:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- No, what I was suggesting was in addition to that. Right now, we have (or should have), a category for "Sport at the Olympics", which contains the top-level summary page plus all the top-level per-Games pages. It also has subcategories of "Sport events at the year Olympics", each of which is populated by the per-event pages for those Games. Therefore, we have a tree-like hierarchy. What I'm proposing is to add a "perpendicular slice" across all Games for the same event. In your case, you would have all the men's springboard event pages from all Games in another category (say, ). In other words, each per-event results page would be in two categories - one with all the other events in the same sport in the same Games, and the other with all the same event in other Games. I hope this is clearer! I don't know if it's actually useful or not, but it seemed like something potentially helpful, once we have a lot of the per-event pages complete. Andrwsc 22:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, I think that's a valuable addition to the Olympics category network. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 22:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree that it should be the bullet and not the big x. --Sue Anne 07:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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New template, take 1
I've created a new template at {{SummerOlympicSports}}. It's designed for use at the bottom of [[Sport at the Summer Olympics]] pages, and navigates between them similar to the {{EventsAtXXXXSummerOlympics}} series. There are a couple of issues I've thought of while creating it. First, ought we differentiate current vs. historical sports in the template? If so, how? Second, would separate templates for winter and summer be appropriate or should they be combined in one template? Thoughts on these questions, and any others you might come up with, would be nice. -- Jonel | Speak 01:27, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- I hadn't realized we didn't have a template like this... very useful. We should differentiate, maybe perhaps by fading the text color of those not current. But that may instead offer the opposite effect: highlighting those that are faded, which wouldn't be desirable. Maybe just don't include those that are not current, writing at the top "Current sports of the Summer Olympics" or similar. In regards to the separate templates, I'll have to think about that. → JARED (t) 02:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- How about this hypothesis - User:Parutakupiu/Sandbox? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 02:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Jonel, this is a great idea, and long overdue. I don't know why we haven't thought of it before! However, the first thing that struck me was that it really ought to include the winter sports too, and the past sports really need to be grouped into a different list. We have a great page at Olympic sports that could serve as the "parent" of this navigation box.
- I put together {{OlympicSports}} to try to address both these issues. I wanted to use the standard {{Navbox generic}} template to handle the groups, as this appears to be a standard Wikipedia way of doing this, but the color of the group headings cannot be changed from that purple and I like our use of blue, so I simply used the underlying CSS classes to accomplish pretty much the same visual appearance.
- Anyway, how does this look? Andrwsc 17:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Looks fine to me. All issues Jonel pointed out are solved on that template. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 18:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- How about making just two sections "SO" and "WO", with "past sports" highlighted; or saying in which of the two past sports were present in some other way? Cmapm 19:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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New template, take 2
Another pair of templates for the [[Sport at the Summer Olympics]] pages. {{OlympicYearHeader}} and {{OlympicYearFooter}}. Basically just to clean up the events and nations tables on those pages. Any thoughts on these? -- Jonel | Speak 01:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- I like this one too, but does it or does it not take into account the possibility that a page "Sport at the XXXX Summer Olympics" has yet to be created? Because this could mislead someone to think that said sport was not at the Olympics during a certain year when it really was. → JARED (t) 02:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Great job, Jonel. Anything that could clean out that link-overloaded header on every nations/events table is welcome! ;)
- As for Jared's question: you can rest assured that won't happen (at least for all the Games held so far) because you can see all "Sport at Year Summer Olympics" pages exist as shown here (only a few demonstration sports are missing). Parutakupiu talk || contribs 02:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- This is a very clever idea! One thing that would need to be added, in my opinion, is a way to handle sports that didn't get added to the program until relatively recently. For example, the table at Synchronized swimming at the Summer Olympics really should not be any bigger than that. There is no need to show a whole lot of blank columns from 1896-1980. (Unless of course, we just use your template for the "old" sports and leave ones like this alone.)
- The other thought is that we need to handle Winter Games in this template, or a parallel one.
- As for the possibility of missing pages? I can assure you that there are no missing pages for sports in which medals were awarded. I went on a bit of a redlink-fixing spree about 2 weeks ago and added all the remaining missing sport pages (e.g. shooting in old games, all the sailing, a few missing wrestling, some fencing, etc.) - and even added a couple of demo sports to boot (Water skiing at the 1972 Summer Olympics and Badminton at the 1972 Summer Olympics). Not to worry that your template will miss something it shouldn't! Andrwsc 18:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I was thinking about your first point, about the leading blank columns, but I think doing that with a single template would be beyond my template-making skills. It could probably be done with a "startyear" parameter. I might try tinkering with it. As for winter, it could be done with either a parameter ("season" or the like) and conditional statements based on it to display the summer or winter years, or a separate similar pair of templates for winter ("OlympicYearHeaderWinter", with the original renamed accordingly). Parellel templates would probably be the easier way to go. -- Jonel | Speak 20:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I managed to manipulate this template in order to apply Winter sports as well (I even solved the "Biathlon"/"Military patrol" duality issue). See the template code here and how it's displayed here. We could also code the template just to show the years where he sport was contested, instead of displaying a gray unlinked year. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Since these header/footer templates are to be used mainly on the top-level "Sport at the Season Olympics" page's tables, I'd vote for leaving out the noncompeting years since the reader can find info on which years that sport was competed. I'd like this topic to be decided soon so the templates (in whichever version chosen) could be applied immediately. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
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Article checklists
On a related note, I think we ought to "retire" {{WikiProject Olympics Sports Table}}. I don't think it's been completely maintained (e.g. synchronized swimming still doesn't show up in it!!) and I think the set of templates visible from Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports Olympics/Templates is a much better way to see at a glance what redlinks still exist (only a handful of demo events as I write this).
Similarly, {{WikiProject Olympics Country Table}} and especially {{WikiProject Olympics Winter Country Table}} are quite out of date. The full set of "NOCinxxxxOlympics" templates has been diligently maintained, so I think the best way of navigating the complete list of "Nation at the year Olympics" articles is by viewing Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports Olympics/Templates. There are no redlinked articles for any of the per-nation per-Games type. All that remain are the overview "Nation at the Olympics" and/or "Nation at the Summer Olympics"/"Nation at the Winter Olympics" pair, and I'm working on that as per previous discussion. Andrwsc 18:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- I've used it often in the past, but never truely questioned the validity of it. It is very useful, but if it is not up to date, then it's not worth keeping (except for historical purposes in an archive). I just have always used those to gauge the Olympics pages of WP. → JARED (t) 20:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
More templates
As I was following Andrwsc's idea of creating a category to contain all the per-Games pages of a certain Olympic event (in the case I'm working with, Category:Diving at the Olympics - Men's springboard) as an complement to the already existing "Sport events at the Year Season Olympics", I also tried to devise a navigation template that would follow this idea. What I came up, for now, was one template containing all the springboard events (men and women) at year Summer Olympics (User:Parutakupiu/Springboard) and another linking to all the platform events (User:Parutakupiu/Platform).
As you can see, I tried to put both individual and synchronized women and men events on one template, to prevent creating multiple ones. But I guess they're a bit big, even with a collapsible option (I'd think they should be non-collapsible as with the "Sport at Season Olympics" counterparts). What you think of them? Helpful? Redundant? And about the format? Suggestions?
P.S.: I'm a bit of a template freak if you have noticed :P Parutakupiu talk || contribs 19:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
AFD notification
I have nominated the article for deletion. You are invited to comment, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2004 Summer Olympics medals count by International Organization. AecisBravado 00:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
2008 events
In my efforts to create a pages with similar names, I have created this list of events at the 2008 Summer Olympics. Listed is every event to be contested (except Sailing, which I'm not sure how to name properly). Please feel free to edit it in any way you wish; it lacks structure right now, I was going to make each sport its separate section using =={{User:Andrwsc/Olympic sport header|Archery}}==. So anyway, I think it's important to come up with the correct names of events down to the spacing, capitalization, and abreviations, so please comment, if you get a chance to look at it! → JARED (t) 19:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jared, for sailing I suggest you use the names I chose here: Category:Sailing events at the 2004 Summer Olympics. The other suggestions I have are to omit the "12-team" etc. qualifiers for the team events, and to spell out "metres" instead of "m" in the shooting events. I think your sandbox page is a good place for us to see all the event article names in full and get consensus (especially as we are cleaning up the 2004 pages as well), so I would spell out all article names in full and not use the pipe trick to abbreviate any links. Andrwsc 20:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes. Jared, I agree with Andrwsc you should list fully the article names so it's easier to detect any flaw and make suggestions. I don't know if you followed the naming pattern on other similar pages or/and you used the IOC naming (which can be confusing and inconsistent with what we have around here). Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Yeah, I realized after I did the whole thing that maybe listing the full name would be better. My initial intention was to use it as a check list to see if the article had been created or not, but it's more useful without the piped text. Basically, what I did was I looked at the 2008 program and used the event names there and matched them up to the 2004 events. For those that didn't match up as far as naming goes, I either left them blank or went with my best guess (even if it didn't match previous years).
- The metres thing I didn't notice until the end, as well, but I found it weird that the shooting events were "m" not "metres." And the "12-team" thing I just did because there was no precedent otherwise, so I went with the IOC event name, but it is a little unnecessary. I'll take care of the list here and there. → JARED (t) 01:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Update. I have reorganized the list and counted all events on the list and that number (302) matches the number on the schedule. I had two extras I had to take out, and two I forgot to put in, so good thing I got the count wrong in the first place because otherwise, I would have never noticed! Anyway, so maybe take a look at that if you want. I just think it will prove useful when we want to rename some of the other existing pages or when we want to create new pages for the upcoming games. → JARED (t) 23:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Hey, Jared. I've noticed one thing I never did before: why do some athletics' events bear the word "metre" while others use the plural "metres"? Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Participating nations
About a week ago, Jared added a third parameter to {{FlagIOC}} to show a number in parenthesis after the nation name. I had an idea to use that to add a "Participating nations" section to Weightlifting at the 2004 Summer Olympics, which I have just finished splitting into per-event articles. I rather like the result! It is informative, with numbers of athletes provided for 79 nations, without being an excessively large table or list. Perhaps we can adopt that as a standard section on the per-sport per-Games pages when this data is available. I will be adding it to some of the other 2004 pages in the next few days too. Andrwsc 20:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, it looks nice and especially informative. That data can be used also to replace the numerous X's at the main "Sport at the Season Olympics" pages' nations table (and vice-versa). Parutakupiu talk || contribs 00:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Discussion at MoS on flag icons
Please contribute to the discussion on flag icons at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Flag icons - manual of style entry?. (SEWilco 06:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC))
Another AFD
As per a request by Parutakupiu, I am trying to delete . An admin disagreed with my prod request, so now it's up for AFD. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bobsleigh at the 1960 Winter Olympics if you want to comment. Andrwsc 17:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Possible AFD?
As it is stated on the lead of Rowing at the Summer Olympics, despite scheduled for competition, no rowing events were actually contested at the 1896 Summer Olympics, because of bad weather. The {{Olympic Games Rowing}} navbox also clears this by signaling 1896 as a noncompeting year for rowing. Still, there is an article for it - [[Rowing at the 1896 Summer Olympics]]. It think we should propose it for deletion like we did with Bobsleigh at the 1960 Winter Olympics. The article is very short (won't expand anymore) only stating the reason for the absence of competition and also which events were scheduled. Since the main sport page already does both things in the lead section and on the event table (if deleted, this year would become a linkless "gray" number but the events could stay), I think we should go for deletion. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 20:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Consider it deleted :) Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Peer review/Olympic Committee of Portugal
Hello all. I requested a peer review for the article Olympic Committee of Portugal created entirely by me and I would be glad if anyone here could contribute. Thanks! Parutakupiu talk || contribs 05:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- I went a bit further and nominated it for GA, while the peer review is still on, but since the GAC list is huge (though reaching GA is simpler) I'd like people who have interest on the subject and wouldn't mind to evaluate the article to post more comments. I've been expanding the content and copyediting so there's some new little things. Thanks! Parutakupiu talk || contribs 19:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Fanny Blankers-Koen FAR
Fanny Blankers-Koen has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
{{Olympic Games}}
OK, so I thought of an idea in regards to the template placements on the bottom of events pages like Swimming at the Summer Olympics, Swimming at the 2008 Summer Olympics, or even 2008 Summer Olympics. So, for example, on Swimming at the 2008 Summer Olympics, there are currently two templates listed there at the bottom. I think it would be more efficient to have the templates stemmed off from another template. And what better template to do this with than {{Olympic Games}}. What I suggest is that we add two parameters to this template: {{{Games}}} and {{{Sport}}}. If either is defined when {{Olympic Games}} is called, then those associated templates will be included in the transclusion and the Olympic Games template as we know it will retract. See this sandbox page of mine for the example template. It would work like this:
{{Olympic Games |Games=2008Summer |Sport=Swimming }}
would call the following template:
Olympic Games | ||
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Sports • Medal counts • NOCs Medalists • Symbols |
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Summer Games: 1896, 1900, 1904, 19061, 1908, 1912, (1916)2, 1920, 1924, 1928, 1932, 1936, (1940)2, (1944)2, 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020 |
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Winter Games: 1924, 1928, 1932, 1936, (1940)2, (1944)2, 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 2002, 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018 | ||
Athens 2004 — Turin 2006 — Beijing 2008 — Vancouver 2010 — London 2012 |
Events at the 2008 Summer Olympics (Beijing) |
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Archery • Athletics • Badminton • Baseball • Basketball • Boxing • Canoeing • Cycling • Diving • Equestrian • Fencing • Football • Gymnastics • Handball • Hockey • Judo • Modern pentathlon • Rowing • Sailing • Shooting • Softball • Swimming • Synchronized swimming • Table tennis • Taekwondo • Tennis • Triathlon • Volleyball • Water polo • Weightlifting • Wrestling |
Swimming at the Summer Olympics | ![]() |
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1896 • 1900 • 1904 • 1908 • 1912 • 1920 • 1924 • 1928 • 1932 • 1936 • 1948 • 1952 • 1956 • 1960 • 1964 • 1968 • 1972 • 1976 • 1980 • 1984 • 1988 • 1992 • 1996 • 2000 • 2004 • 2008 See also: List of Olympic medalists in swimming (men) and List of Olympic medalists in swimming (women) |
The only problem that I have now, which is really not too bad, is that the {{{Games}}} parameter requires that the year and the season be right next to each other without a space, because of the name of the template that it is calling. I tried to use {{#replace:2008 Summer}} which would in theory remove the space placed there by the user, but apparently StringFunctions are not yet implimented on WP. On the other hand, the {{{Sport}}} parameter will work fine with sports like Water polo because there can be one space and the second word should be lowercase. Tell me what you think. It was just one of my little ideas, so I decided to try it out. Thanks. └Jared┘┌talk┐ 23:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Jared. Anything that can save us from extra work is welcome. I like the idea, I just don't know about the preferable order of the "events per year" box and "sport per year"; if there should be a specific hierarchy. As long as it remains consistent for all other pages. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Yeah, I wasn't too sure on the order either. I went back and forth before deciding on this. I think that on a page like Swimming at the 2008 Summer Olympics, the choice here seems logical because you start with the main Olympic Games box, listing years; then you go to a specific year box, listing sports; then you go to the specific sports box. Now, what made it hard for me was that logically, the specific sports box should have been {{}} because this would list the sport for that year, not go back up one level. But given that we're changing the appearance of these templates, it could not be done this way, so I decided just to put the Sport at the Season Olympics template last.
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- Taking it from the other perspective, the "broken link" is between Olympic Games and the next template down, if you go in the order of Olympic Games → Sport at Olympics → Sport at Year Olympics. This template also makes logical sense because you're going from a list of years in which the sport was contested to all the sports in that one year.
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- Personally, I like it how it is, but that's just my opinion. It seems that 2008 is the first way, 2006 is the second way, and 2004 is mixed, so it doesn't seem that there has been precedent. Otherwise, though, I think it's a good idea to just do it. And if there's ever a problem with the layout, it is all controlled from the main "Olympic Games" template anyway, so it could be easily switched. └Jared┘┌talk┐ 01:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, you're right. The last should really have been the "sport at year" box to give a hierarchical sense, but its use on the bottom is out of the question now. So we're left with this order which indeed seems the most logical, giving priority to the "events at year" box.
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- About having to concatenate both year and season on the "Games" parameter's string, there are two solutions:
- Use the #switch function so that a string specified like "YYYY Season" comes out as "YYYYSeason";
- Change every "EventsAtYYYYSeasonOlympics" template title to another with "YYYY" and "Season" separated.
- But as you can see, they are both HUGE tasks and and become a useless effort when one just has to remind to write the strings all together instead of apart. Parutakupiu talk || contribs 01:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- About having to concatenate both year and season on the "Games" parameter's string, there are two solutions:
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- Leave it this way, for now ;) It's only a SPACE! :P Parutakupiu talk || contribs 03:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
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Usage of Olympic pictograms
I've noticed, that someone added one self-created wrestling pictogram into all "Wrestling at the NNNN Summer Olympics" articles. Even where official pictograms were available, they were replaced. As there were unique sports pictograms designed for many Olympics, I believe that replacement to be inappropriate and confusing. I see those self-made pictograms to be appropriate in articles and templates, that refer to "Wrestling at the Olympics" as a whole (for example, in {{Olympic Games Wrestling}}), but not in ones, that are limited to wrestling events at particular Olympics. Cmapm 10:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Official pictograms are encumbered with copyright. Parutakupiu was kind enough to create these pictograms and release them into the public domain. Since free content is a major goal of Wikipedia, the free pictograms are better than the official ones. They also serve to give a consistency across Wikipedia pages. -- Jonel | Speak 12:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, I hadn't found any understanding here before, and have no hope to find it in the future. Now you even don't bother to address my points, showing, that such free pictograms could be held equivalent to each set of official ones. This reminds me "standardization" of the education by using textbooks in one language for all races and peoples :) Go on with your "nice work", guys :) Cmapm 13:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, I recently uploaded the 2008 pictograms under the {{Olympics-logo}} license, which I think will work for the purposes of this encyclopedia. I think that it is good to have a set of common pictograms, but I also think that where available, the per-games pictograms are fine to use because they're under a fair use license, and they're only used (each one) on one or two pages anyway. └Jared┘┌talk┐ 20:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
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Model sports page?
OK, so recently I've been trying to come up with what the best layout for a "Sport at the XXXX Season Olympics" page. I've run into a problem right off the bat in regards to the basic structure of the page. I myself like the table that lists all of the medal winners in one place, like the one at Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics. Here, everything is connected, it's organized, and it's easy to look at everything at once.
Fine. Now, here's where the problem comes: that layout makes it hard to allow for an explanation/summary of each event and what happened during the events. I feel that as the main page for that sport, before being broken off into subpages, this page is important in conveying the gist of each event. A page, for example, that does this is Alpine skiing at the 2006 Winter Olympics. This page doesn't have the table at the beginning, but rather it has each event sectioned off, a summary of each event, and a little box for the medal winners in each section. Again, though, the problem with this is that there's no easy way to see all medal winners at once.
I think that somewhere in there there's a happy medium. I want to see what someone else will come up with, but I think we should still put a table at the top, and then do a summary for each event at the bottom (without the individual medalist boxes there). The problem, though, comes when you have 32 events like in swimming and there is not really enough room to put summaries. You could do it, I suppose, but would it be fine?
As we get going into the 2008 pages, I think it's almost imperative to fix up the 2004 sports and sub pages because they will serve as models. If they're not up to par, it'll be a nightmare sorting through them all after the games are done. I hope we can come to some sort of consensus here. If anyone sees a page that could serve as a good model or create their own, please show it! └Jared┘┌talk┐ 21:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hey, Jared. I've come up with this idea which can conciliate the existence of both the medal per event table and the introduction of a small summary text for each event. The underlying template easy to insert on the already existing tables and only requires an extra parameter - the summary text itself (apart from an optional column number parameter for tables that have colspan=2 for each medal). Parutakupiu talk || contribs 23:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I am certain that pretty much every event will have it's own page for the 2008 Games (e.g. ), and I think those pages ought to have more prose commentary than they typically do now. I also think that the main per-sport pages (e.g. Athletics at the 2008 Summer Olympics) could potentially have a "Highlights" section, but of course, the choice of what is a highlight is somewhat subjective. If we really want to see a per-event prose summary of every event on the main page, then Parutakupiu's proposal is a really good idea! It reduces the potential clutter but makes the text readily available.
- I also strongly agree that we need to get all the 2004 pages up to "gold standard" quality in the next few months. There seems to be just a handful of us who edit Olympic articles all the time, but we will be deluged with new editors around the Games, and I believe it is essential that we just point them to the "gold standard" 2004 pages and tell them to follow that style exactly, not inventing something new and unique. At various times in the past few months I have brought some of the 2004 sports up to a good level (e.g. Sailing at the 2004 Summer Olympics, Canoeing at the 2004 Summer Olympics and Weightlifting at the 2004 Summer Olympics), but there is still a lot to do. Andrwsc 00:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I like that proposal. At first, I wasn't too keen on it, but I looked at it a bit and decided I liked it! I think that if we could put in each box where, when, etc the event was contested and anything else of interest, that would be a good place put two or three sentences without making a whole bunch of sections for like 42 events. Great idea, it should work just fine. I've been looking at the 2004 articles recently (notice the operative phrase...haha). Well, I've edited a few, sub-paged a few, etc. They seem to be overall in good shape, and may just need some polishing. The ones that'll be the most work are the ones that cannot be broken down further, like Basketball at the 2004 Summer Olympics, but I think that one can just be reorganized and it'll look a million times better.
- So as a timetable of sorts, I say we just keep trying to find stuff that works for us, and then when we pretty much have it down, by then we'll probably have filtered through the 2004 pages some more. And then we'll do a final run through, making them all similar in appearance and maybe adding the summary template that Parutakupiu suggested. I don't think that's priority to do now, but I just wanted to know the direction we were going in. └Jared┘┌talk┐ 02:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
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