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"Widely regarded" statements
Recently there's been quite a few additions of "widely regarded" statements in articles. I think this RfC makes it pretty clear that this should not appear in Lewis Hamilton's article specifically, but this was later also adapted and removed from other articles. To make it clear that this should apply to all articles, can we have some sort of consensus here?
@Mastermind627: has recently added this to Hamilton's article, and this to Charles Leclerc's article, although I don't want to personally get into an edit war over it since I reverted @AtishT20:'s edit (discussed here). FozzieHey (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree that they should be excluded entirely, but if consensus exists to remove them from one they should be removed from all. 5225C (talk • contributions) 00:25, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- ...depending on what the consensus to remove them from one was based on. It could very well have been removed because the references weren't good enough, while the references might be good enough for other. As an attempt to clear up what would be required: Someone being "widely regarded as the best" is a conclusion that has to be sourced from somewhere directly, if not it's in violation of WP:OR. You can't just add ten sources claiming he's the best or one of the best, and then make the conclusion that he's "widely regarded" as anything. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'll take your point regarding consensus, but I will disagree on the OR statement. At some point it has to become common sense. 5225C (talk • contributions) 01:37, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ved havet: Source doesn't matter. "Majority", "widely" wtc. - by who? Eurohunter (talk) 09:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- The Leclerc one doesn't look to have been sourced in the article, and is also a dated statement, that will become outdated at some point. At what point does Leclerc stop being a "rising star"- after all, he's been racing in F1 for 4 years, won multiple races and is currently leading the World Championship, and Verstappen won the championship last year. I wouldn't consider either to be a rising star, as they've already risen. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ved havet: Source doesn't matter. "Majority", "widely" wtc. - by who? Eurohunter (talk) 09:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'll take your point regarding consensus, but I will disagree on the OR statement. At some point it has to become common sense. 5225C (talk • contributions) 01:37, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- ...depending on what the consensus to remove them from one was based on. It could very well have been removed because the references weren't good enough, while the references might be good enough for other. As an attempt to clear up what would be required: Someone being "widely regarded as the best" is a conclusion that has to be sourced from somewhere directly, if not it's in violation of WP:OR. You can't just add ten sources claiming he's the best or one of the best, and then make the conclusion that he's "widely regarded" as anything. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- The RfC only applies to claims that someone is considered the greatest, and it only applies to such statements in the lead. It doesn't, for example, apply to the Leclerc example above. Nor does it prohibit making the statement that Hamilton is the greatest in the body, where it be discussed, with proper sources, neutrality (including counter-views). The biggest problem with these statements is justifying WP:DUE, (both for the lead, and article as a whole) and justifying the use of the word "widely". SSSB (talk) 06:05, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, and that's why I raised it here. What is the actual value in including these statements? I personally think we should outline the statistics and records and let the reader make a decision on their own. FozzieHey (talk) 07:55, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- @FozzieHey: Exactly. Source doesn't matter. "Majority", "widely" wtc. - by who? Show me who said that exactly or give example in awards, records etc. Eurohunter (talk) 09:37, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, and that's why I raised it here. What is the actual value in including these statements? I personally think we should outline the statistics and records and let the reader make a decision on their own. FozzieHey (talk) 07:55, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Event circuit lengths
A dispute in 1957 Pescara Grand Prix has led to changes in the event circuit length. While looking for more references for that dispute, I've come across this interesting article which mentions
Due to small modifications made to the circuit over the long period of years there has not been a consistency over fastest lap times
This raises an interesting question, as most of these older event articles are sourced from various different sources, and unknown circuit changes may be introduced year on year, would it be more appropriate to simply mention the length as an estimate of "25km" for example?, as this article does in other places. I personally think changing "25.73km" to "25.801km" is a bit ridiculous in terms of MOS:UNCERTAINTY so I think an "around 25km" (or even just "25km", if it's obvious it's been rounded) would be better here, interested to hear others thoughts though. FozzieHey (talk) 13:34, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- This actually reminds me of a discussion we had here regarding rounding attendance figures. FozzieHey (talk) 14:24, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- If the source does not express uncertainty, neither should we. If for some reason consensus develops otherwise, I think c. 25.801 km (16.032 mi) is a more appropriate method of doing it. 5225C (talk • contributions) 15:49, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- What if multiple sources disagree? Even if we have sources that agree on a particiular figure, e.g. 10.289 miles, what is the value in saying 10.289 miles over 10 miles? I think MOS:UNCERTAINTY covers this as well
Where explicit uncertainty is unavailable (or is unimportant for the article's purposes) round to an appropriate number of significant digits; the precision presented should usually be conservative. Precise values (often given in sources for formal or matter-of-record reasons) should be used only where stable and appropriate to the context, or significant in themselves for some special reason.
FozzieHey (talk) 17:45, 15 April 2022 (UTC)- If sources disagree, and one number isn't obviously correct, we should reflect uncertainty amongst sources. Circa means approximately. So c. [an exact match with a source, where another says something different] does not make a great deal of sense. It would be "c. 25.75 kilometres (16.00 mi)" (25.75 the result of rounding both 25.73 and 25.801 to the nearest 25m. 25.8 km would also work, rounding to the nearest 20m). I think a "25.73–25.81 kilometres (15.99–16.04 mi)" approach (with a footnote explaining why we have a range) would also be a viable option. Saying approximately 25km makes little sense, as it is closer to 26km. But also, the sources are within 100m of each other, so rounding to 1000m is unnecessary. SSSB (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, if sources disagree I agree we should approximate appropriately (e.g. using circa) and state the reason for some uncertainty (if there is any clear reason). However, I posted that "what is the value" question just to see if there is actually a reason why we provide such specific values for when sources do agree, to the reader is there any difference from 10.289 to 10 or 10.2 miles for example? To be clear, I think specific values are useful depending on the context (for example, putting 10.289 in the infobox), but I think having it written in prose seems a bit clumsy and interupts the sentence flow. FozzieHey (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- There is a difference between 10.2 and 10.289, because it should be 10.3. We should be rounding, not truncating. There should be a limit to the number of decimal places we use in running prose, but I think 3 decimal places is acceptable. At 4 I would start to have a problem. 2 is fine. I think 0 decimal places is a bit too extreme though. SSSB (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed this after contributing to the Pescara discussion but I think a side point I raised there is more appropriately mentioned here. For the vast majority of Formula 1 race articles we give the circuit length to the nearest metre (ie 3 decimal places, so taking the 2022 Australian Grand Prix as an example, we have the circuit length as 5.278km but the race length is simply 58x5.278=306.124km. However this is an incorrect amount of precision. To give a simple illustration, the length of the circuit is known to the nearest metre, 5278 metres. So if the race was 10 laps long, the length of the race would be 52.78km (NOT 52.780km). We cannot add a trailing zero here since we only knew the length of the circuit to the nearest metre we know the length of a 10 lap race to the nearest 10 metres. This is captured by the concept of significant figures. Since the length of the circuit had four significant figures, so too when we multiply it by some number of laps the precision of our answer should only have 4 significant figures, and so the distance given for the Australian GP should only be 306.1km. We could perhaps instead say 306.124 +/-
0.058(since 58 laps means our answer is correct to the nearest 58 metres instead of nearest 1 metre), but that's probably a bit too complicated and confusing. A7V2 (talk) 01:54, 16 April 2022 (UTC) - Edit: Last part should be plus or minus 0.029 (29 metres, half of 58). A7V2 (talk) 02:02, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sometimes the race length is available in the source to the nearest metre though, so we aren't required to do any calculating ourselves. For example, F1.com gives the race distance of the 2022 AUS GP as 306.124 km (link). In these cases, with modern systems of measurement, I would say the precise measurement to the nearest metre is appropriate. In past cases where there is a disagreement among sources, I think SSSB's proposal of a c. [range][footnote] is the best method we can use. 5225C (talk • contributions) 03:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be an almighty coincidence if the length of the Australian GP, to the nearest metre, just happened to be the same as the length of the track to the nearest metre multiplied by the number of laps. A7V2 (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- It’s not coincidence at all. In Australia start and finish line is quite simply one and the same.Tvx1 01:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Tvx1 I was referring to the claim 5225C made that "In these cases, with modern systems of measurement..., measurement to the nearest metre is appropriate". But as I explained above, if the circuit length is known to the nearest metre and we multiply it by 58 laps we only have the length to the nearest 58 metres. So you would need to measure the length of the circuit to approximately the nearest 0.01 metre (ie the nearest cm) in order to get the race length to the nearest metre, unless it so happened that the length was actually 5278.00m which seems incredibly unlikely, not to mention that it is completely pointless to bother measuring to the nearest cm. It has nothing to do with where the start/finish line(s) are in this case. A7V2 (talk) 06:55, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- If the FIA say this is the race distance to the nearest metre I don't see any valid reason to dispute that. Mathematically you are correct, but the FIA have determined that this is the official distance so I don't see how you're going to overcome that. 5225C (talk • contributions) 07:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- There's two main reasons (in policy) that I feel would allow us to ignore their precision, though I admit these are open to interpretation. Firstly, there is MOS:UNCERTAINTY, which states "Where explicit uncertainty is unavailable (or is unimportant for the article's purposes) round to an appropriate number of significant digits; the precision presented should usually be conservative. Precise values should be used only where stable and appropriate to the context" (emphasis mine). I couldn't find much in the talkpage archives but this old discussion has a clear consensus that rounding of data provided by reliable sources (in that case census data) is appropriate.
- Secondly, I feel that WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies here. Given that the FIA's self-published claim would imply that they know the circuit length to the nearest cm, we should only use such measurements if given in independent sources. I don't know of any major outlets discussing this issue, but Snellman certainly noted it on his website. See [1].
- Finally, I think WP:COMMONSENSE or WP:IAR could be invoked here as well, even if only to give the interpretations of policy I have given above. A7V2 (talk) 08:27, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with A7V2's point here about MOS:UNCERTAINTY and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I think settling this discussion may require the involvement of users from maths-related WikiProjects and possibly a request for comment however. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 12:12, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm with 5225C here. I don't see the problem with simply stating the FIA's number, rather then delving into unnecessary uncertainty, which is apperently discussed in one source, and not actually calculted in any. WP:UNDUE applies here, if one source discusses the problem, and no source address the problem (by stating the error in their lengths), then it is inappropraite for us to do so.
I would also argue that WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:IAR suggest we should overlook MOS:UNCERTAINTY and WP:EXCEPTIONAL becuase no source deals with the uncertainity, so there it is WP:OR for us to do so.
Finally, I don't find the claim exceptional at all, with modern measuring equipment, it is perfectly feasable to work out the centre line, and it's length, even if you don't publish to that accuracy. SSSB (talk) 17:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- I largely agree with 5225C and SSSB and disagree with A7V2 and your claim that they have a point. I don't agree with SSSB's reasoning IAR is needed here. A7V2's reasoning is simply wrong. There is no "explicit uncertainty" here. On the contrary, we have an extremely reliable source providing us with explicit certainty and no general calling this into question by other sources at all. Neither does this fall under WP:EXCEPTIONAL. The provided information is not out of character, contradicted by prevalent view in mainstream sources, nor generally challenged. Or articles or not out of sync with MOS on this subject at all.Tvx1 23:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think you need to reread part of what I wrote. There is no explicit uncertainty given in the sources. That's the point! The suggestion you and SSSB are making (about "accuracy") implies that the circuit length is 5278m to the nearest cm (and not to mention many other circuits which just happen to be this way), which is ridiculously unlikely regardless of how accurately the circuits can or have been measured. As the MOS states, where explicit uncertainty (ie sources do not give us the uncertainty) is not available (and clearly such uncertainty exists in this case unless you wish to accept that the circuit happens to be 5278m to the nearest cm) we should round the number. Rounding numbers is not original research. But I am happy to, as HumanBodyPiloter5 suggests, take this to a wider forum such as Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. A7V2 (talk) 00:49, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, our point is that we have a reputable source giving us explicit certainty and no other reputable sources challenging them. And no Snellman is not a reputable source. Your link doesn’t even deal with length but speed, which is a completely different calculation. There is nothing uncertain nor exceptional here. The information we present is verifiable to a reputable source. Your complaint would only hold water if only circuit lengths were given in sources and we would be deriving the race distances from them, which is NOT the case.Tvx1 09:35, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think you need to reread part of what I wrote. There is no explicit uncertainty given in the sources. That's the point! The suggestion you and SSSB are making (about "accuracy") implies that the circuit length is 5278m to the nearest cm (and not to mention many other circuits which just happen to be this way), which is ridiculously unlikely regardless of how accurately the circuits can or have been measured. As the MOS states, where explicit uncertainty (ie sources do not give us the uncertainty) is not available (and clearly such uncertainty exists in this case unless you wish to accept that the circuit happens to be 5278m to the nearest cm) we should round the number. Rounding numbers is not original research. But I am happy to, as HumanBodyPiloter5 suggests, take this to a wider forum such as Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. A7V2 (talk) 00:49, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm with 5225C here. I don't see the problem with simply stating the FIA's number, rather then delving into unnecessary uncertainty, which is apperently discussed in one source, and not actually calculted in any. WP:UNDUE applies here, if one source discusses the problem, and no source address the problem (by stating the error in their lengths), then it is inappropraite for us to do so.
- If the FIA say this is the race distance to the nearest metre I don't see any valid reason to dispute that. Mathematically you are correct, but the FIA have determined that this is the official distance so I don't see how you're going to overcome that. 5225C (talk • contributions) 07:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Tvx1 I was referring to the claim 5225C made that "In these cases, with modern systems of measurement..., measurement to the nearest metre is appropriate". But as I explained above, if the circuit length is known to the nearest metre and we multiply it by 58 laps we only have the length to the nearest 58 metres. So you would need to measure the length of the circuit to approximately the nearest 0.01 metre (ie the nearest cm) in order to get the race length to the nearest metre, unless it so happened that the length was actually 5278.00m which seems incredibly unlikely, not to mention that it is completely pointless to bother measuring to the nearest cm. It has nothing to do with where the start/finish line(s) are in this case. A7V2 (talk) 06:55, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- It’s not coincidence at all. In Australia start and finish line is quite simply one and the same.Tvx1 01:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be an almighty coincidence if the length of the Australian GP, to the nearest metre, just happened to be the same as the length of the track to the nearest metre multiplied by the number of laps. A7V2 (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Also note that in the vast majority of cases race length≠circuit length*number of laps. This is because there is almost always on offset between start and finish line.Tvx1 08:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- That's true, but all the more reason not to report race lengths to excessive (and unnecessary) precision. A7V2 (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Only you consider this precision to be excessive (and unnecessary). It's your personal opinion, not fact.Tvx1 23:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- "Only you consider this precision to be excessive (and unnecessary)..." (emphasis mine) - You can disagree with me, or even call me a moron or whatever for misinterpreting policy/MOS or for doing OR, but what benefit comes from
lying so blatantlysaying things which are evidently untrue (edit:I softened what I originally had here as I failed to AGF)? HumanBodyPiloter5 expressed agreement above, and if not for having read the piece by Snellman some time ago I'm not sure this issue would have ever occurred to me. So there are at least two other people who agree with me! A7V2 (talk) 00:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)- That only one person, in the meantime refuted, agreeing with you came only hours before my comment. Snellman doesn’t count because he isn’t in this discussion and doesn’t deal with length but speed. Despite the one person admitting you might have a point, which I refuted, you’re the one who actually keeps stamping on this. And I really cannot fathom why. Why is this such a massive issue for you that you’re so adamant to get your way? Why’d you go to such as length as involving other projects or initiating time-consuming RFC’s to force your change through on such a non-issue.Tvx1 09:35, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- I must be missing something, at what point does HumanBodyPiloter5 express te opinion that the precision is excessive (and unnecessary)? You, Tvx1 and now I are the only people in this thread to have even mentioned the word "excessive". And of the three of us, you are the only one who believes it to be excessive.
Secondly, I'm not sure why you bring up WP:OR. The only arguement that contains WP:OR is yours, because no source includes uncertainty when stating race distances. SSSB (talk) 18:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think we are getting lost in the noise a bit, and my stupid attempt at conveying sarcasm has evidently only made this worse (at the risk of adding to that noise, note that it is just the final paragraph of the section [2] which mentions race distance, I should have been clearer the first time).
- I also think we are getting stuck on the why without considering what the what is. What I am actually proposing/suggesting is that as a general rule we should be rounding race lengths in articles. This act is certainly not OR. Routine calculations are specifically allowed, and rounding is a routine calculation (see WP:CALC and Wikipedia:These are not original research#Simple calculations), and is expressly allowed or even encouraged in the MOS (see MOS:UNCERTAINTY) WITH THE CAVEAT that it be "appropriate to the context". The calculations I did above are not OR for the reason that they are not in article space, but if I did add them or similar (which I am NOT going to do!) that would of course be OR.
- So then given all of that, we can round the numbers given in a reliable source if it is appropriate which of course is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, race articles should, at the very least (or should that be most?) give race lengths to the same number of significant figures as the circuit length is given. This primarily due to my mathematical objection above, but also I feel that such precision is not actually informative to the reader, whether it is "correct" or not. The metres and tens of metres are simply of no importance over the duration of a ~300km race, in my opinion. A7V2 (talk) 00:28, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- "Only you consider this precision to be excessive (and unnecessary)..." (emphasis mine) - You can disagree with me, or even call me a moron or whatever for misinterpreting policy/MOS or for doing OR, but what benefit comes from
- Only you consider this precision to be excessive (and unnecessary). It's your personal opinion, not fact.Tvx1 23:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- That's true, but all the more reason not to report race lengths to excessive (and unnecessary) precision. A7V2 (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sometimes the race length is available in the source to the nearest metre though, so we aren't required to do any calculating ourselves. For example, F1.com gives the race distance of the 2022 AUS GP as 306.124 km (link). In these cases, with modern systems of measurement, I would say the precise measurement to the nearest metre is appropriate. In past cases where there is a disagreement among sources, I think SSSB's proposal of a c. [range][footnote] is the best method we can use. 5225C (talk • contributions) 03:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed this after contributing to the Pescara discussion but I think a side point I raised there is more appropriately mentioned here. For the vast majority of Formula 1 race articles we give the circuit length to the nearest metre (ie 3 decimal places, so taking the 2022 Australian Grand Prix as an example, we have the circuit length as 5.278km but the race length is simply 58x5.278=306.124km. However this is an incorrect amount of precision. To give a simple illustration, the length of the circuit is known to the nearest metre, 5278 metres. So if the race was 10 laps long, the length of the race would be 52.78km (NOT 52.780km). We cannot add a trailing zero here since we only knew the length of the circuit to the nearest metre we know the length of a 10 lap race to the nearest 10 metres. This is captured by the concept of significant figures. Since the length of the circuit had four significant figures, so too when we multiply it by some number of laps the precision of our answer should only have 4 significant figures, and so the distance given for the Australian GP should only be 306.1km. We could perhaps instead say 306.124 +/-
- There is a difference between 10.2 and 10.289, because it should be 10.3. We should be rounding, not truncating. There should be a limit to the number of decimal places we use in running prose, but I think 3 decimal places is acceptable. At 4 I would start to have a problem. 2 is fine. I think 0 decimal places is a bit too extreme though. SSSB (talk) 21:27, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yup, if sources disagree I agree we should approximate appropriately (e.g. using circa) and state the reason for some uncertainty (if there is any clear reason). However, I posted that "what is the value" question just to see if there is actually a reason why we provide such specific values for when sources do agree, to the reader is there any difference from 10.289 to 10 or 10.2 miles for example? To be clear, I think specific values are useful depending on the context (for example, putting 10.289 in the infobox), but I think having it written in prose seems a bit clumsy and interupts the sentence flow. FozzieHey (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- If sources disagree, and one number isn't obviously correct, we should reflect uncertainty amongst sources. Circa means approximately. So c. [an exact match with a source, where another says something different] does not make a great deal of sense. It would be "c. 25.75 kilometres (16.00 mi)" (25.75 the result of rounding both 25.73 and 25.801 to the nearest 25m. 25.8 km would also work, rounding to the nearest 20m). I think a "25.73–25.81 kilometres (15.99–16.04 mi)" approach (with a footnote explaining why we have a range) would also be a viable option. Saying approximately 25km makes little sense, as it is closer to 26km. But also, the sources are within 100m of each other, so rounding to 1000m is unnecessary. SSSB (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- What if multiple sources disagree? Even if we have sources that agree on a particiular figure, e.g. 10.289 miles, what is the value in saying 10.289 miles over 10 miles? I think MOS:UNCERTAINTY covers this as well
- What is the length of a circuit, anyway? Is it measured along the centre of the track; along the inner kerb; or along the optimum racing line? It's clear to me that the actual distance travelled by a car making one lap will not be any of these. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Does that even matter? I’d say the only thing that matters is that the figures are properly sourced.Tvx1 12:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- It matters if different sources have used different methods. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I would be very surprised if the mainstream sources actually make physical measurements themselves. They would just cite the figures provided by the FIA. For modern circuits and races for which the FIA provides us the data, their method doesn't really matter. It's an official figure and we can source it as such. For older races, like the Pescara one, it's more complicated. But then again, the sources we use for such races don't tend to explain methods at all. So I don't think it's a thought process worth delving into.Tvx1 21:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- It matters if different sources have used different methods. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- The FIA always use the center of the track for official track lengths. The actual distance travelled by a car doesn't matter. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 14:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Does that even matter? I’d say the only thing that matters is that the figures are properly sourced.Tvx1 12:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Note for F1 2022 table results
In the table you read Pole position. The pole position for a Grand Prix is awarded by normal qualifying result (it is always the case for 2022). It is not important if the Grand Prix features the Sprint format or not, despite the fact driver gets the right to start first by winning the sprint. Note for Verstappen in the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix line is irrelevant in my opinion. Why is there this necessity to clarify this aspect?--Island92 (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Island92, could we have more context? Which table? Where? SSSB (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Looking at the rest of my watchlist you mean the table at 2022 Formula One World Championship#Grands Prix. I agree with the need of the note, but find it's content too specific. We should have the same note for all weekends: "Pole position is determined by the fastest driver in qualifying, not the driver starting the race in first." Because who has pole is already in the table, and the driver who started in first, bit didn't (necessarily on pole) isn't relevant (as the column is for pole). SSSB (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, he's talking about the note I've added to Max Verstappen's pole position over at results table of the 2022 Formula One World Championship, which I added after we came to an agreement about this in this discussion in March, in the format suggested by @5225C:.
- In short: Most people would rightfully assume that pole position is held by the person starting the Grand Prix in first position. That is however not the case during sprint weekends, where pole position is awarded to the person winning the qualifying, meaning they start the sprint in first, but not necessarily the main race. We therefore came to the solution to include a note for these pole positions, with something along the lines of "Bottas is credited with pole position, but Hamilton started the Grand Prix first following the sprint." (names are random in this example).
- Verstappen, who holds pole this weekend, does indeed start the Grand Prix in first position, but not because he won pole on Friday. I therefore think it's still relevant to have a note about this for this weekend.
- I disagree that who started the Grand Prix in first position is irrelevant. Technically, yes, it's not relevant to the official title of pole position, but it is relevant to the readers who are rightfully going to the pole position column looking for who started the Grand Prix on pole (first) position. In the previous discussion, we agreed not to call the first position on Sunday "pole", but information about who started the Grand Prix in first position is not necessarily available anywhere else (the sprint result from Saturday may not reflect the starting grid on Sunday e.g. after penalties). It therefore has a function, and I don't see how being specific about the relevant weekend is disadvantageous in any way. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 20:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- The point is: doesn't the pole position match with the fastest driver in qualifying? Of course yes, that's why I think specifying that prose into the note is irrelevant. No matter whether the Grand Prix presents the sprint format or not, in any case the pole position, during the race weekend, is linked to the fastest driver in qualifying session. You have the right to start first if you win the sprint, but it doesn't necessarily mean, statistically speaking, you got the pole position as well. Pole position's achievement is something external to the sprint. A reader in the table reads pole position for the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix clinched by Verstappen, ok, but is it such important to know who won the sprint at all so as to be aware of who started first in the Sunday's race? This is my thought on it.--Island92 (talk) 22:45, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- You're basing your argument on the assumption that pole position is defined as the "fastest driver in qualifying", but that's not usually the case. Yes, the fastest driver in qualifying is usually the one who starts on pole position, but what actually is "pole position"? Pole position is, in all of racing except Formula One sprint weekends, "the position at the front at the start of a racing event", typically meaning the person at the front of the grid on Sunday's main race. With this not being the case on this weekend, along with other deviation from the regular format, people are going to be confused, and that's when they head to Wikipedia to hopefully get a better understanding. Our goal should always be to make things clear cut for the reader, and adding these notes takes up very little space while at the same time making the function and result of pole position(s) of sprint weekends very clear. I'm genuinly curious what the motivation would be to not include it.
- Yes, I do believe it's as important to know who actually started the race in the first position, as it is to know who won qualifying and thereby the "statistical pole". Even more than that, I think it's important for people to understand how this weekend format works. I think explaining exactly how the qualifying result, sprint result and main race grid is connected when it comes to pole, including the specific results from that weekend, is very much relevant and important in regards to the results table of the season. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 23:11, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, but basically the table itself should not explain what the pole position is. There is the link in the first line to know it. We got other articles to make readers aware of how it works, when a sprint format is used. The table itself sums up all the results achieved by drivers throughout the season. Where did the three sprint formats take place? Emilia, Austria, Brazil. Are people forced to know who won the sprint and got the right to start first? I don't think so, on average. For that there is always the dedicated page to be informed and to check how the Grand Prix results went. People interest in knowing who starts in front only because the driver who won the sprint starts first by putting pole position value aside is not considered worthknowing. Island92 (talk) 00:24, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- The point is: doesn't the pole position match with the fastest driver in qualifying? Of course yes, that's why I think specifying that prose into the note is irrelevant. No matter whether the Grand Prix presents the sprint format or not, in any case the pole position, during the race weekend, is linked to the fastest driver in qualifying session. You have the right to start first if you win the sprint, but it doesn't necessarily mean, statistically speaking, you got the pole position as well. Pole position's achievement is something external to the sprint. A reader in the table reads pole position for the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix clinched by Verstappen, ok, but is it such important to know who won the sprint at all so as to be aware of who started first in the Sunday's race? This is my thought on it.--Island92 (talk) 22:45, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- SSSB, that statement only applies to sprint weekends. In normal weekends, to this day still, when someone sets the fastest qualifying time but is then penalized for a breach of some rule or signals their intent to start from pit lane or to withdraw prior to the starting grid being declared final, pole position is reassigned to the next driver on the grid. And to my understanding, this also applies to sprint weekends in that if the fastest driver is penalized following Friday qualifying, pole position is passed on.Tvx1 00:29, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- I seem to have misread SSSB's comment, I thought he was suggesting a general note for all sprint weekends. You are correct though, e.g. the 2021 Turkish Grand Prix where Hamilton's pole wasn't recorded after receiving a grid penalty. Only in situations like the 2021 Monaco Grand Prix where Leclerc did not start the race will the pole grid position be left vacant. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- In particular, when someone is unable to start from their assigned grid slot AFTER the starting grid is declared final.Tvx1 06:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ved havet: the discussion in March (that you linked above) was about if the pole-driver didn't match the person starting first on Sunday. Additionally, as far as I was aware, the purpose of that table is to provide a statiscal summary of the events. I notice we don't hae a note in 2019 Formula One World Championship to indicate that Magnussen didn't get the fastest lap point in Singapore, likewise for 2018, (though I acknowledge, non-F1 articles do).
@Tvx1: then the note would say "Pole position is determined by the driver starting the sprint race in first, not the driver starting the main race in first.", or some alternate wording.
Generally speaking, I take back my comments about a general note for all weekends. However, when the pole-sitter is the same across both defintions, the style of note currently in use feels clumsy, and any note at all seems redundent. SSSB (talk) 12:14, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- Although Verstappen holds pole this weekend, and also started the Grand Prix in first position, I still believe the note is relevant because he did not start first due to winning pole on Friday, as people will assume. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- At the same time readers should be aware that the rule has changed for 2022 and pole position stats for the Grand Prix information matches with the result of normal qualifying. It's out of the context if you start first thanks to sprint win. It's something disconnected from the pole position "value" during the weekend.--Island92 (talk) 21:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Far from everyone is aware of the details in the rules, and their point of confusion will naturally first occur when interpreting the results. This is still relevant despite Verstappen winning both qualifying and the sprint, because if they do know the rules then they can't be sure if Verstappen did start first or not (and it's probable that that's the information they're looking for), and if they don't think about sprint weekends being different, comparing this Grand Prix to future sprint weekends where the pole and first grid position is not the same may also lead to confusion. Pole in qualifying lining up with the starting grid of the race this weekend is not because pole in qualifying decided the first position of the starting grid of the race, like some will believe. That's why making sure people interpret pole position correctly upon reading the results is valuable, and I think expecting everyone to read the details of the regulations beforehand is unrealistic. Remember this is not just live data, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and these results may be read by people far into the future. So, let's lend them a hand and inform them as they're reading the results.
- As I've said multiple times by now, I'm well aware that who starts in first position of the race is no longer necessarily the "statistical pole" holder – but this is Wikipedia, we care about neutrality, WP:COMMONNAME's and common sense, and there's absolutely no doubt that the usual definition of pole position is in fact the driver starting the race in first position. That's what our own article on it says, and that's also the page we're wikilinking to multiple times in these season articles. I'm not at all saying we should prioritize this over the FIA's statistical pole holder, but I think giving a heads up on these weekends that "hey – this is the statistical pole holder from qualifying, but if you were (rightfully) looking for the person who started the race in first position, that would be ..." is a good thing, even if it's the same person, to make the distinction and the way pole works clear and precice where it is most useful. Again, I'm struggling to see the issue with this. We're not saying the person started first was "on pole", so we're not in any conflict with the FIA's weird use of the word. I think it's a simple and elegant solution, which is why it was agreed upon in the first place. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I have to agree with Ved havet on this. You cannot assume that every reader in decade or more from now will be aware of all these rule quirks. I have actually seen that in practice with editors incorrectly changing Ret's to DNS's in results table of red-flagges races of the 90's and early 00's, not knowing that back then when a race was red-flagged before the completion of two laps that start attempt was voided entirely and cars that had crashed out or had a mechanical failure during it an did not take the actual classified start would be classed as DNS for the classified race.Tvx1 11:54, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- At the same time readers should be aware that the rule has changed for 2022 and pole position stats for the Grand Prix information matches with the result of normal qualifying. It's out of the context if you start first thanks to sprint win. It's something disconnected from the pole position "value" during the weekend.--Island92 (talk) 21:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Although Verstappen holds pole this weekend, and also started the Grand Prix in first position, I still believe the note is relevant because he did not start first due to winning pole on Friday, as people will assume. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ved havet: the discussion in March (that you linked above) was about if the pole-driver didn't match the person starting first on Sunday. Additionally, as far as I was aware, the purpose of that table is to provide a statiscal summary of the events. I notice we don't hae a note in 2019 Formula One World Championship to indicate that Magnussen didn't get the fastest lap point in Singapore, likewise for 2018, (though I acknowledge, non-F1 articles do).
- In particular, when someone is unable to start from their assigned grid slot AFTER the starting grid is declared final.Tvx1 06:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- I seem to have misread SSSB's comment, I thought he was suggesting a general note for all sprint weekends. You are correct though, e.g. the 2021 Turkish Grand Prix where Hamilton's pole wasn't recorded after receiving a grid penalty. Only in situations like the 2021 Monaco Grand Prix where Leclerc did not start the race will the pole grid position be left vacant. Ved havet 🌊 (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (
John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.
)
and turns it into something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.
The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.
Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.
This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
DYKs
Hi, I posted quite a few DYKs a while ago at Portal talk:Formula One/Did you know, I'd really appreciate if someone gave them a look. Cheers! X-750 I've made a mistake, haven't I? 04:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Featured article review 1994 San Marino Grand Prix
I have nominated 1994 San Marino Grand Prix for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:15, 9 May 2022 (UTC)