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User talk:Qed237
Hi folks,
You may remember Qed237, who I am guessing has left Wikipedia as I've seen on the user talk page at various points in recent years. I've now noticed a notice change though I'm not sure if that is right or not. It appeared the user had stopped editing a month after I registered with my current user name and I'm not sure why someone has changed the notice at the top of that talk page, whenever that was. Reverting that change could solve that problem unless the user does indeed comes back. And it's not summer yet. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Iggy. I remember them. Could you restate the issue or "problem" you want to discuss? I'm having trouble making sense of what you wrote. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- This edit, which I have now found, appears to have replaced one version of a page with another, I don't think that should have ever been made and there was no edit summary either. Also Lowercase sigmabot had placed a duplicate in archive 26 and an old conversation in archive 28. Hope that makes more sense Robby.is.on. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ah, yes, thanks. That is odd… Robby.is.on (talk) 10:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- This edit, which I have now found, appears to have replaced one version of a page with another, I don't think that should have ever been made and there was no edit summary either. Also Lowercase sigmabot had placed a duplicate in archive 26 and an old conversation in archive 28. Hope that makes more sense Robby.is.on. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:47, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Would someone experienced be able to rectify this? Maybe @GiantSnowman: or @Mattythewhite:? Robby.is.on (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- done, I think... GiantSnowman 18:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, GS. Was that it, Iggy? Robby.is.on (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Robby.is.on: yes, looks like what it should be re the top of the talk page. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, GS. Was that it, Iggy? Robby.is.on (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- done, I think... GiantSnowman 18:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Qualified teams table for AFC Champions League season articles
There is two kinds of format: Option 1 : UEFA kind:
The labels in the parentheses show how each team qualified for the place of its starting round:
- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th: League positions of the 2022/2022–23 season (unless shown otherwise)
- CW: Domestic cup winners of the 2022/2022–23 season (unless shown otherwise)
- PR: Premier, regular-season winner
- PW: End-of-season play-off winner
- TBC: To be confirmed
The tournament is divided into West Region (WR) and East Region (ER).
Entry round | Teams | ||||
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Group stage | WR | ||||
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ER | |||||
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Play-off round | |||||
WR | ![]() |
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ER | ![]() |
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Preliminary round | |||||
WR | ![]() |
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ER | ![]() |
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Notes
- ^ Hong Kong (HKG): Due to the COVID-19 pandemic in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Premier League and all cup tournaments for the 2021–22 season were cancelled, with the teams to qualify for the Champions League yet to be announced.[1]
- ^ To-be confirmed (TBC): Due to the change of the competition date to Autumn-Spring format, these nations will have two domestic season completed before the competition starts. They are expected to announce their own slot allocation method for the competition, but haven't confirmed it yet.
Option 2 : old AFC kind with appearance:
In the following table, the number of appearances and last appearance count only those since the 2002–03 season (including qualifying rounds), when the competition was rebranded as the AFC Champions League.
Note: Only teams assured of a place are displayed.[a]
- Notes
- ^ If the AFC Champions league winners are from top associations and have not qualified through their domestic performance, they will replace the lowest-seeded team from their association.
- ^ Hong Kong (HKG): Due to the COVID-19 pandemic in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Premier League and all cup tournaments for the 2021–22 season were cancelled, with the teams to qualify for the Champions League yet to be announced.[2]
- ^ To-be confirmed (TBC): Due to the change of the competition date to Autumn-Spring format, these nations will have two domestic season completed before the competition starts. They are expected to announce their own slot allocation method for the competition, but haven't confirmed it yet.
References
- ^ "Arrangement of 2021-2022 BOC Life Hong Kong Premier League and cup matches". Hong Kong Football Association. 25 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
- ^ "Arrangement of 2021-2022 BOC Life Hong Kong Premier League and cup matches". Hong Kong Football Association. 25 February 2022. Retrieved 2 March 2022.
Which table should use in continental club football competition season articles? Thoughts? Hhkohh (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Discussion
- Option 2 It will be a huge work if you want to use the same table in different continental club football competition season articles. See 2020–21 CAF Champions League, 2021 Copa Libertadores, 2021 CONCACAF Champions League and 2021 OFC Champions League Qby (talk) 05:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 Same formatting as recent Champions League articles in Africa, Oceania and others. The equivalent for UEFA is at it's current format as there are 80 teams in this years edition and provisionally 79 next season and there are more rounds in UEFA than anyone else so using option 2 is better for these pages above. Using this option for UEFA will have a large part of those pages with a list of teams and how they qualified and some of those associations will have four qualified teams making merging doubling the effort compared to two. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 12:14, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 Maintain the status quo for AFC Champions League and AFC Cup, as it is still readable, and matching the format of the equivalent tournaments in CAF, CONCACAF, OFC, CONMEBOL. I understand if it is better in the other format for the UEFA competition, but I don't feel that because it exists it should be made the sole standard format. Matilda Maniac (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Consensus re: EFL play-off appearances/goals and player statistics
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, but just wanted to know in advance what the consensus is (if any) regarding the EFL play-offs, specifically how any appearances made and goals scored by players who feature in these are recorded.
A player's infobox stats only includes league appearances and goals (as well as national team apps/goals) - are the play-offs considered part of the league for this purpose?
Additionally, in the career statistics tables, are play-off appearances and goals to be included in the league columns, or should they be recorded under 'Other' with a note?
Thanks FilthyDon (talk) 14:49, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- My experience, which I would have got from here, is that they are treated as a separate "cup" competition, and therefore included under the "other" column of the career statistics table, and not included in the infobox. Regards, Gricehead (talk) 14:54, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely "other" appearances and not in infobox -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, agreed, play-offs are 'others' - this is also how Soccerbase records them (but unfortunately not Soccerway). GiantSnowman 15:40, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- soccerway are a pain in the ass for that actually, especially for players in the lower english leagues plus india and Australia who use play offs to determine the champions. there will be hundreds of pages have incorrectly added play off appearances to the info box i remember adam le fondre did that for india and Australia for years till i fixed it.Muur (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. Worldfootball.net and Soccerbase differentiate play-off appearances, Soccerway does not which is annoying. Robby.is.on (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- soccerway are a pain in the ass for that actually, especially for players in the lower english leagues plus india and Australia who use play offs to determine the champions. there will be hundreds of pages have incorrectly added play off appearances to the info box i remember adam le fondre did that for india and Australia for years till i fixed it.Muur (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, agreed, play-offs are 'others' - this is also how Soccerbase records them (but unfortunately not Soccerway). GiantSnowman 15:40, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely "other" appearances and not in infobox -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
United League table 1897-98
I was adding the table to my sandbox from an old book by Phil Soar, but a lot of the numbers are seriously wrong in this version of his book. Anyone else have the table somewhere to compare? Cheers. Govvy (talk) 15:25, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is the "position" column not redundant, given the sections of the table? Seasider53 (talk) 15:34, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- ? Why would the pos column be redundant? Govvy (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Govvy: I think Seasider is referring to whatever that player appearances/goals table is which is in the same sandbox. You have a heading of "goalkeepers", then all the goalkeepers have a value of GK in the "position" column, which is redundant because you already have a heading saying that they are goalies -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. One should have said section headings. Seasider53 (talk) 15:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's an old table of mine and off subject of what I asked! :/ Govvy (talk) 16:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- We have to go to the table article you linked to to see the book you're talking about. But, yes, off-topic. Seasider53 (talk) 16:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's an old table of mine and off subject of what I asked! :/ Govvy (talk) 16:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed. One should have said section headings. Seasider53 (talk) 15:50, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Govvy: I think Seasider is referring to whatever that player appearances/goals table is which is in the same sandbox. You have a heading of "goalkeepers", then all the goalkeepers have a value of GK in the "position" column, which is redundant because you already have a heading saying that they are goalies -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- ? Why would the pos column be redundant? Govvy (talk) 15:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Andy Kelly's site has (a version of) that table. Click on 1897-98 and then scroll to the right. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Hans Nicolussi
In November 2020, he had an ACL injury. He was to return in August 2021, but he broke his meniscus. He returned to the field in November, playing a couple of games before having a new injury which has since been keeping him far from the pitch (today he's first been called up since November). The problem is that no source says the kind of injury had in November. How can I explain the average reader the reason he was kept far from the pitch? I think saying that he had a injury without specifying its kind would be incomplete. Dr Salvus 18:00, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a source that says he was injured in November 2021? If so just say that. GiantSnowman 18:05, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, as far as I remember there's no source saying the month of his injury. They only say he hasn't played due to an injury since November. During the following weeks of his injury, sources said he woudld've played soon but didn't. As far as I remember Juventus never published a press release saying the kind of injury and when it occurred (and I remember they made it for various U23 players) Dr Salvus 18:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the source says "he has not played due to injury since November 2021", then we say that he has not played due to injury since November 2021. GiantSnowman 18:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- According to Juventus, his injury was to the left knee. Nehme1499 19:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- There are so many injuries involving a knee. However, I'll add the information when I update U23's stats Dr Salvus 19:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hopefully, I've managed to find the source talking about the moment he got injured, according to this source he got injured on 20 November. Dr Salvus 20:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- In the long run it isn't critical what was the exact date he got injured or what the exact injury was. --SuperJew (talk) 08:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, as per WP:NOTGOSSIP
news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to overly detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every facet of a celebrity's life, personal details, matches played, or goals scored is significant enough to be included in the biography of a person
. The articles should summarise a players career, not just be a series of statements thatOn nn mmm yyyy he did something
. Spike 'em (talk) 10:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, as per WP:NOTGOSSIP
- In the long run it isn't critical what was the exact date he got injured or what the exact injury was. --SuperJew (talk) 08:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hopefully, I've managed to find the source talking about the moment he got injured, according to this source he got injured on 20 November. Dr Salvus 20:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- There are so many injuries involving a knee. However, I'll add the information when I update U23's stats Dr Salvus 19:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- According to Juventus, his injury was to the left knee. Nehme1499 19:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the source says "he has not played due to injury since November 2021", then we say that he has not played due to injury since November 2021. GiantSnowman 18:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, as far as I remember there's no source saying the month of his injury. They only say he hasn't played due to an injury since November. During the following weeks of his injury, sources said he woudld've played soon but didn't. As far as I remember Juventus never published a press release saying the kind of injury and when it occurred (and I remember they made it for various U23 players) Dr Salvus 18:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Catalonia is not a national team
In the wiki article of Pep Guardiola "Catalonia" is listed as his national team. This is not correct.
Catalonia is not a country and the Catalonia team is in no way a national team, not politically, not by recognition of the international nor national football federations. It's a regional team that can only play in friendly matches, and it's part of the Royal Spanish Football Federation along all the other regional/territorial federations (Andalusia, Castile-Leon, Madrid, Asturias...). Its amateur section even participates in the UEFA Regions' Cup in which other non-national regions take part (Veneto, Castile-Leon, Bavaria, Jersey...).
The same goes for the article of the Catalonia national football team article, in which the references to "national" are incorrect.
This might be a translation error (these teams are called "selections" in Spanish, which does not have a direct translation to English and it's often translated as "national team", as these "selections" do normally refer to national teams: the French national team would be "the French Selection" ("Selección Francesa") and so on). That said, several requests to correct these objective errors have been disregarded, which makes me think there might be some political biases at play here.
It should be corrected.
In Pep Guardiola's article:
• Catalonia should be removed as his "national team" or moved to a new "regional team" section.
• Catalonia should not appear listed in the "international career" section.
In the Catalonia national football team article:
• "National" should be removed from the title, or replaced by "regional" or by a direct translation of its original name (which is the same in both Spanish and Catalan language and roughly translates to "Catalonia Football Squad"). The same should be done to any other references of Catalonia as a "national team" in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Chumbo One (talk • contribs)
- The correct translation for Selección Española de Fútbol is Spain national football team and the same applies to Catalonia. Context is important, just because selección literally translates as selection, does not mean that that is always the correct translation. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:56, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- In the players context, what is currently there is correct as Catalonia etc play matches against official national teams. However it is true that they don't have the same status as those FIFA national teams and a different adjective should be considered so there is less confusion (although it could be argued that Gibraltar and the Faroe Islands, to give just two examples, are not independent nations either; nor are the British Home nations by some interpretation, and actually Catalonia is an area that has been defined as a nation within Spain under its constitution. This is by no means the first time this point has been raised, I don't know if a consensus was formed in previous discussions. Crowsus (talk) 11:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Aaron James Ramsey
The more famous Aaron Ramsey, who plays for Rangers at this point, has the middle name James. Just now when I saw the top of the article, I see there is also a Aaron Ramsey (footballer, born 2003) page, looking at that infobox, it also says his middle name is James as well. Both claims are sourced so we should assume they are correct. Therefore, I am wondering if the full name redirect page should change role (from it's current redirect to the primary footballer) as the one born in 2003 could be more notable as time goes by. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have been bold and have transformed Aaron James Ramsey into a disambig page. Nehme1499 15:10, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- It has to be said I think the chances of anyone typing in Aaron James Ramsey as a search are pretty slim..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree for obvious reasons. Not everyone knows the full names of famous people well unless the full names consists of both first and last names such as Roy Hodgson for example. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:25, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- If Aaron Ramsey is a primary topic with no disambiguator, I see no reason that Aaron James Ramsey shouldn't redirect to Aaron Ramsey. --SuperJew (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with SuperJew. If the Welsh player is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then logically he's also the primary topic for the name with the middle name in it too. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't automatically say that the middle name would be the primary topic as well, as sometimes people will use the middle name as a disambiguator from someone more famous. For example, Michael B. Jordan using it to differentiate from Michael Jordan. I don't know anything about this new player, but it could be that he would go by his full name to differentiate from Aaron Ramsey, it'd just be coincidental that he'd have the exact same name. However, if he did/does go by his full name, the full name could be "more common" for him and the short name for the other player. Especially that he wouldn't be automatically be the primary name for the middle name because if no one uses the middle name, then it wouldn't be "common" for him. Definitely, primary under the base name, but someone who sees the full name might think "this has to be someone else because if they wanted to talk about Aaron Ramsey, they'd say Aaron Ramsey". Another option, would be to create Aaron Ramsey (disambiguation) and then have Aaron James Ramsey link to that, in case future Aaron Ramsey's become notable. RedPatch (talk) 18:07, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with SuperJew. If the Welsh player is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then logically he's also the primary topic for the name with the middle name in it too. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- If Aaron Ramsey is a primary topic with no disambiguator, I see no reason that Aaron James Ramsey shouldn't redirect to Aaron Ramsey. --SuperJew (talk) 15:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree for obvious reasons. Not everyone knows the full names of famous people well unless the full names consists of both first and last names such as Roy Hodgson for example. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:25, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- It has to be said I think the chances of anyone typing in Aaron James Ramsey as a search are pretty slim..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Possible Disruptive Editing
Could someone with familiarity in women's soccer please have a look at the contribs of 90.255.168.165?[1] They have been engaging in mass changes to articles about women soccer players without edit summaries or citing any sources. I have blocked them for 72 hrs and may consider extending it. And I have reverted quite a few as unsourced changes but there are hundreds of rapid fire edits, and I suspect possible vandalism. Thanks. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II
Reposted and updated version of original now archived.
As main contributor to this article, I would like to flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.
- Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
- Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
- Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
- Jozsef Eisenhoffer (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
- Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
- Hermann Flick (Germany)
- Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in Germany wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front).
- Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
- Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
- Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
- Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
- Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
- Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia.
- Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
- Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
- Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
- Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany)
- Otto Martwig (Germany)
- Philip Meldon (Ireland) - disputed death details, not known to CWGC.
- August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
- Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
- Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikidia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
- Jean Petit (footballer, born 1914) (Belgium) - His French wikipedia article indicates without citation or death location given that he was a doctor - probably civilian rather than military - who was killed in a bombardment preceding the Allied invasion of Normandy.
- Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
- Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
- Fyodor Rimsha (Russia)
Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive date in most wikipedias. His Finnish wikipedia article gives 27 October 1943 but the Finnish language sources are subscription required.- Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
- Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
- Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man?
- Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in German war grave site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
- Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date
- Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location.
- Karl Wahlmuller (Austria)
- Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.
- Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death disputed
There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Cloptonson: I checked Holger Salin. The newspaper article does not mention the war, and just notes that he died unexpectedly. The death notice posted in the newspaper just says he died in an accident. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:36, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- I see his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.Cloptonson (talk) 20:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Transfermarkt
A day, I had read transfermarkt wasn't a reliable source as the pages are user-generated. I sometimes edit transfermarkt and I can state that every edit you want to do there must be approved by an admin. So, are there any other reasons it's not reliable? Dr Salvus 10:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Because it is user generated! It doesn't matter that it's 'checked' by another random person. GiantSnowman 10:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- The random person is an admin, somebody I think is trusted Dr Salvus 11:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just do what I do. I'll look at transfrmarkt as a base, see what information is there, the google that information to find a wiki-approved source. Usually fairly easy to find the information and it beats trying to change the transfrmarkt is not a reliable source policy (and to be fair I have found a couple of instances of incorrect data on transfrmarkt). RedPatch (talk) 11:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- They are a lot better than use to be, use to be far worse, but they have improved a lot as a website the last few years. Govvy (talk) 11:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- ...and this is exactly what people should be doing. A random admin at Transfrmarkt is no more reliable than a random user who enters the data to begin with, although I suppose it does cut the chance of error down (always assuming that the admin is actually checking the entry, which let's face it is not guaranteed). Black Kite (talk) 11:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Want to know my problem? I do need Coppa Italia Serie C for Juventus U23 players which aren't covered in any site unless we're looking to trasfermarkt Dr Salvus 11:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've found diretta.it but I'm not familiar with the site which covers the stats of the competition. It looks similar to GSA. Can this be considered a reliable source? Dr Salvus 12:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- In my experience with TM, the statistics seem to be as reliable as any other database we deem to be reliable. Of course, the market values are purely subjective. But I see no issues in using their stats database and news articles. Nehme1499 12:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not the only one who thinks so, but it'd be useless discuting imo. But we'll never manage to change the rule. Dr Salvus 12:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- They do seem to have some "face value" statistics. Hassan Maatouk is shown to have scored 7 goals in 15 games for Lebanon U20. However, when trying to see the detailed game-by-game stats, there is no information ([2]). As long as the statistics are actually linked to match reports available on the website, I think it's fine to use those. Stats which have no games associated to them should be ignored. Nehme1499 12:24, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Right. TM is not the bad in the form of a website. Dr Salvus 12:30, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- again - Transfermaekt should not be used as it is not considered reliable. by all means do what RedPatch and use it as a springboard to find other sources. GiantSnowman 12:35, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) When I edited TM (my nickname there is Dr-Salvus) I was always required to provide a source, so the information isn't invented. Dr Salvus 12:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I do need Coppa Italia Serie C stats, can I include diretta.it (I don't know how to determine whether a source is reliable or not) Dr Salvus 12:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- See WP:RS or ask at WP:RSN. GiantSnowman 12:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I wish they published the sources for the stats on their pages in a separate section, would make it a lot easier to get sources here, or even consider them as a proper source. Maybe an admin can provide it on request.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I do need Coppa Italia Serie C stats, can I include diretta.it (I don't know how to determine whether a source is reliable or not) Dr Salvus 12:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Right. TM is not the bad in the form of a website. Dr Salvus 12:30, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- They do seem to have some "face value" statistics. Hassan Maatouk is shown to have scored 7 goals in 15 games for Lebanon U20. However, when trying to see the detailed game-by-game stats, there is no information ([2]). As long as the statistics are actually linked to match reports available on the website, I think it's fine to use those. Stats which have no games associated to them should be ignored. Nehme1499 12:24, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I'm not the only one who thinks so, but it'd be useless discuting imo. But we'll never manage to change the rule. Dr Salvus 12:21, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- In my experience with TM, the statistics seem to be as reliable as any other database we deem to be reliable. Of course, the market values are purely subjective. But I see no issues in using their stats database and news articles. Nehme1499 12:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've found diretta.it but I'm not familiar with the site which covers the stats of the competition. It looks similar to GSA. Can this be considered a reliable source? Dr Salvus 12:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Want to know my problem? I do need Coppa Italia Serie C for Juventus U23 players which aren't covered in any site unless we're looking to trasfermarkt Dr Salvus 11:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just do what I do. I'll look at transfrmarkt as a base, see what information is there, the google that information to find a wiki-approved source. Usually fairly easy to find the information and it beats trying to change the transfrmarkt is not a reliable source policy (and to be fair I have found a couple of instances of incorrect data on transfrmarkt). RedPatch (talk) 11:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- The random person is an admin, somebody I think is trusted Dr Salvus 11:03, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
footballwebpages.co.uk
This website shows recent player appearance data for the English non-League and is very useful. I've just been informed by an IP editor though that the individual appearance lists non-playing appearances on the bench in addition to playing appearances. The playing appearances only are displayed on the club stats page. So one to watch out for. EchetusXe 11:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- so then how do we differentiate on the individual appearances without trawling through the club stats? GiantSnowman 11:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Annoyingly I think trawling will be required. I think the most efficient way would be to check the individual page v the squad page, and if there is a discrepancy then check the cup appearances and see if they were an unused substitute for any of those; any remaining difference will be from non-playing substitute appearances in the league. So if the individual page shows 50 appearances and the squad page shows 48, and you check and see that out of 5 cup appearances they were an unused substitute for 1 cup game then that shows they made 48 total appearances, 43 league + 5 cup.--EchetusXe 16:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- theyre forced to number 1-11 for starting players, so all you gotta do is check if they came on a sub when theyre number 12 or higher. every team sheet in those leagues is 1-11, so you could play right back one week and be nunber 2 then play left back a week later and be number 3 then be on the bench and be number 16. the player on your list only started one game and was on the bench the other 5.Muur (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Annoyingly I think trawling will be required. I think the most efficient way would be to check the individual page v the squad page, and if there is a discrepancy then check the cup appearances and see if they were an unused substitute for any of those; any remaining difference will be from non-playing substitute appearances in the league. So if the individual page shows 50 appearances and the squad page shows 48, and you check and see that out of 5 cup appearances they were an unused substitute for 1 cup game then that shows they made 48 total appearances, 43 league + 5 cup.--EchetusXe 16:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Association football at FAR
I have nominated Association football for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 01:51, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
When should league positions be updated?
See this dif: I argue that the teams currently playing in the playoffs should not be updated yet. Number 57 argues that we should display the league they are currently playing in (Serie B), and their regular season position (2021–22: Serie B, 7th of 20), even though the club could potentially be promoted to the Serie A via playoffs. To me, this gives the false impression that the club has finished 7th and will play in the Serie B in 2022–23. Nehme1499 11:34, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- The league positions should be updated when the league season is finished (and this is how it has worked with English leagues for as long as I can remember). My experience is that if you leave it even a few days after the end of the league season, people start manually editing the fields to update the finishing position and remove the updater. Your argument is also inconsistent, as the Italian updater shows the automatically promoted/relegated teams as still being in Serie B (which they are) but apparently it's only an issue that clubs in the play-offs are still listed as being in Serie B? Number 57 11:37, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Worth noting the timing of the updates was discussed when the first updater was created, and there was unanimous agreement that the positions should be updated when the league season ends. Hence this update yesterday for example. Number 57 11:44, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- It should show the current situation, and updated as soon as regular league season ends. Any playoffs remaining can be adjusted separately when they are resolved. Spike 'em (talk) 12:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Juventus F.C. Youth Sector
I want to rewrite this article including the rosters for any youth team from the under-15s (I think including the other rosters would be ridicoulus). Are there any unnecessary rosters I want to include, can I include some lower teams? Would anyone help me? (Sorry if I talk too much about Juventus youth teams)
- U15 players
- U16 players
- U17 players
- U19 players Dr Salvus 19:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a good idea to be including lists of what are essentially non-notable children. GiantSnowman 19:52, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Many other articles do. From which under team do I start including? Isn't it necessary at all Dr Salvus 19:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 19:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman, you haven't replied to the question asked. Dr Salvus 19:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- On a purely practical level, I have created a few of these and have found it to be a tedious exercise to keep the lists updated at the start of every season, even for your favourite clubs; Juventus probably do have a reliable web site, but I have come cross others where the link goes dead and/or the squad doesn't get updated regularly for some time, a problem that becomes worse the further down the age chain you go. It's true that most of the players will move up year on year so the U15s will become the next U16s etc, but you still have to go through each list particularly carefully, and so finding the few who have left or joined actually becomes more annoying than just typing out a whole list from scratch. But then if you do have a list in a reference, what's the harm in just having a ref to the squad, maybe have a list of the coaches for each team, who are often ex-pro players? It's not really adding much value as virtually all the players, even up to U19 level, will not be notable on Wikipedia until they move up to the U23s or on loan - and would then be in the squad list for that club's article. However I think listing U19s for their league and the UEFA Youth League is easy to find a source for, something that a wider range of readers may want to glance at if they are watching it on TV or whatever, and as you have pointed out, something which is displayed on most if not all articles for the pro club's academy / youth team articles. Below that, it becomes less relevant to readers and more time-consuming for editors with no real benefit to the encyclopaedia, being just a bunch of names for the star players of 8 years in the future, plus a lot who will drop out of football altogether as teenagers. Crowsus (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. GiantSnowman 19:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Many other articles do. From which under team do I start including? Isn't it necessary at all Dr Salvus 19:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- Is any of this mentioned in any reliable secondary sources? I could see maybe including the U19s, but anything below is not notable given the inevitable churn of players at that level. This is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. Spike 'em (talk) 09:18, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- agreed. GiantSnowman 09:49, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- I feel like, in general, youth sector / academy articles should focus a bit more on prose (the history, inception, maybe if it regularly impacts the first team roster...). For the squad lists, I would just add the ones that compete in notable competitions: so, either the UEFA Youth League for the under-19s, or for example in England the under-21s since they play in the EFL Trophy. Anything else seems excessive to me. Nehme1499 11:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- agreed. GiantSnowman 09:49, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Consensus - loan players and 'end of season'
As the regular season for most UK/European clubs comes to an end over the coming weeks, I just wanted to seek clarification and possibly a consensus on loan players who are loaned to clubs until "the end of the season" - at what point is it appropriate to update their parent club, loan club and player pages.
The regular annual UK football season at least in terms of player contracts runs from 1 July until 30 June - every club season page on Wiki covers this period.
However, there seems to be some confusion over whether loan players who are loaned until the end of the season are under contract with their loan clubs until 30 June. In reality, loan players 'return' to their parent clubs after the last game of the loaning club's season. For the club I support, a couple of loan players said their goodbyes publicly on social media after the had played their last game for the club.
Again there appears to be confusion over this - I've seen some editors returning loan players to parent clubs, but later having these updates undone by other editors as "the season runs until 30 June". Conversely, I've seen these edits left alone without bother.
Common sense needs to prevail here. Unless someone has a source that confirms loan contracts run until 30 June, for Wikipedia purposes they should run until their final game (as in reality).
With this in mind, what is the current consensus?
Should we update parent clubs/loan clubs and players pages to reinstate loan players at their parent clubs after they have played their final loan game? FilthyDon (talk) 00:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- FilthyDon, no if a player is under contract until 30June, it should be updated starting from 1 July. Dr Salvus 05:00, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Do we actually know that loan players are officially loaned until 30 June? Appreciate that their contract with their current club runs till 30 June, but has anyone ever seen confirmation that loaned players are technically/officially loaned right through to 30 June? What would be the point of that? And even if they are, is it really helpful/useful to readers to insist on showing a player as still on loan to another club anything up to seven weeks after that club played their last game of the season? To my mind it just seems like pedantry for the sake of it...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:37, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- In some cases, the loaned player signs a loan extension during that period between the last game they played and between 30 June. In some cases there might also be non-domestic competitions during that period. --SuperJew (talk) 07:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Domestic loans between English clubs expire as soon as the loan club has played its last fixture. See EFL website, which defines "Season" as
the period of the year commencing on the date of the first League Match and, for each Club, ending immediately after the completion of the Club’s final fixture of the League Competition or, if the Club is participating in the Play-Offs, the final Play-Off match for that Club
, and EFL Rule 55, which says loans are for a half "Season" or a full "Season", as defined above, and particularly 55.1.4, which clarifies that if the loan club's "Season" ends before that of the parent club, the player can't play for the parent club once he returns. That's the EFL, but the PL rules are the same. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)- [www.figc.it/media/55326/tit3_noif_art_da47a70_23-06-2017__________20-08-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjnqYX2_9H3AhWMMewKHbhzAPIQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2unwECGuw3KsbvdazTpMlC Here], FIGC say a season starts on 1 July and ends on 30 June of the following year. Dr Salvus 08:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- For English players I do what Struway hints - update to remove the loan as soon as the final game of the season has happened. GiantSnowman 10:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- For English domestic players, changing them now is correct. That looks like it isn't the case for most other countries though. Either way, it doesn't make a massive difference and people shouldn't be wasting time edit warring over it (as often seems to happen). Joseph2302 (talk) 10:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Have changed my idea, it doesn't make sense much keeping that the borrowing team after when done with the season. Maybe, a player can arleady start training with the team who'd previously loaned. Dr Salvus 11:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Juventus also use the wording "until the end of the season" (see Alvaro Morata). I'd also interpret that as meaning "until the club's last game". Nehme1499 12:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Have changed my idea, it doesn't make sense much keeping that the borrowing team after when done with the season. Maybe, a player can arleady start training with the team who'd previously loaned. Dr Salvus 11:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- For English domestic players, changing them now is correct. That looks like it isn't the case for most other countries though. Either way, it doesn't make a massive difference and people shouldn't be wasting time edit warring over it (as often seems to happen). Joseph2302 (talk) 10:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- For English players I do what Struway hints - update to remove the loan as soon as the final game of the season has happened. GiantSnowman 10:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- [www.figc.it/media/55326/tit3_noif_art_da47a70_23-06-2017__________20-08-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjnqYX2_9H3AhWMMewKHbhzAPIQFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2unwECGuw3KsbvdazTpMlC Here], FIGC say a season starts on 1 July and ends on 30 June of the following year. Dr Salvus 08:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Domestic loans between English clubs expire as soon as the loan club has played its last fixture. See EFL website, which defines "Season" as
- In some cases, the loaned player signs a loan extension during that period between the last game they played and between 30 June. In some cases there might also be non-domestic competitions during that period. --SuperJew (talk) 07:57, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
The end of the season, as Struway2 pointed out in the green text, has now applied to 61 out of 72 EFL clubs so effectively most loan players have had their seasons finished. Many of those players are loaned from Premier League clubs who have not yet completed their season so these articles should not be updated until at least after that date of the end of season is gone. These edits reflects on the fact that both Swansea's and Peterborough's seasons are both done but in the case of, e.g. Freddie Woodman, his season with Bournemouth is completed but Newcastle's isn't yet so the current version should reflect that. Strangely Swansea City A.F.C. has their loan dates ending 31 May 2022, not sure why though. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 13:30, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- like contracts, loans generally end on 30 june officially. they dont end the second a last game is played as seen when teams qualify for the play offs.Muur (talk) 19:16, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- that is literally contradicted by the source Struway has helpfully quoted above. GiantSnowman 19:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Muur:
they dont end the second a last game is played
- Struway has quoted directly from the EFL rule book above confirming that they do -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:49, 9 May 2022 (UTC)- Not to have a go at anyone but it's a human foible to ignore information that contradicts their existing viewpoint. But if we could gather a consensus NOT to revert edits putting a player back to their parent club if the loanee club has played their final game of the season then that would be great.--EchetusXe 12:30, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Northern Irish League tables
Someone help me understand this, as maybe there's something I missed. I'm looking at the (Northern) Irish league tables. Until 2003-2004 season there's a field shown before the points called "GR" which gets replaced with "GD" (goal difference) from 2003 on. GR seems to be goal average ie goals scored divided by goals conceded, a system used as the main tiebreaker in England until 1981, however it's news to me that this continued in Northern Ireland well into the millenia. Further in 1999–2000 Irish League the UEFA places are decided by goal difference, even though the mysterious GR is shown in the table. So unless I'm wrong and this has some significance which the table suggests it doesn't, we need to change these tables, no? Valenciano (talk) 23:31, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- I assume "GR" stands for "goal ratio". – PeeJay 00:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Assuming that the placings in the Premier Division in 1999-2000 are correct (and they seem to be) then clearly goal difference was the determining factor, because the teams in 2nd, 3rd and 4th are ranked in descending order of goal difference but not of "GR"..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
FIFA Men's World Rankings
Hi. Why was this article moved to this name? FIFA World Rankings should be the correct name.--Island92 (talk) 00:20, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I agree. FIFA's own website distinguishes between "Men's Ranking" and "Women's Ranking. Historically it probably is the case that "FIFA World Rankings" referred to the men's game, but I'm not sure that distinction remains relevant (Unlike, for example, if someone were to move FIFA World Cup to FIFA Men's World Cup). If anything I think FIFA World Rankings should be turned into a disambiguation page. Jay eyem (talk) 00:32, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree as well, FIFA clearly has them titled as Men's and Women's rankings, and it is becoming more common to distinguish the two, same as some National Football team articles now have men in the title for the National Football team to distinguish it from the women's team.— NZFC(talk)(cont) 00:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hmm, they might name them that, but is it the WP:COMMONNAME? It's a little bit of WP:RECENCYBIAS. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:36, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree as well, FIFA clearly has them titled as Men's and Women's rankings, and it is becoming more common to distinguish the two, same as some National Football team articles now have men in the title for the National Football team to distinguish it from the women's team.— NZFC(talk)(cont) 00:52, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
If you look at 2022 FIFA World Cup Group E for example you read FIFA Ranking (generic name). That's why I think the Page should be re-moved to the previous name. Island92 (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
In addition to that, the info box for a National Football Teams shows FIFA Ranking, as England national football team for example.--Island92 (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Every women's national team page also says simply "FIFA Ranking" not "FIFA Women's Ranking", for example England women's national football team. It also does the same on the world cup pages (just says FIFA Ranking (example: 2019_FIFA_Women's_World_Cup#Qualified_teams. So that is irrelevant. If I were to talk about about a women's team's ranking, I would naturally say they are number X in the World Rankings. I wouldn't randomly include the word women's since it would be obvious. For both genders, the COMMONNAME is simply "FIFA World Rankings", but it needs to be disambiguated somehow, so going with the name FIFA uses makes sense instead of going with FIFA World Rankings (men) and FIFA World Rankings (women). RedPatch (talk) 16:45, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Samuel Iling-Junior
Do I write Iling-Junior or Iling Jr. in the prose and in the footballboxes? Dr Salvus 21:29, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Juventus, Chelsea and UEFA all use "Iling-Junior", not "Iling Jr." Nehme1499 21:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- We shouldn't be doing something just beacuse someone else has done the same. Iling-Junior is not needed (maybe I could understand only in the title). No one is so stupid to not know Junior can be expressed with Jr. Dr Salvus 21:48, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- Junior doesn't automatically equal Jr., just so we're clear and not stupid. Seasider53 (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- We shouldn't be doing something just beacuse someone else has done the same. Iling-Junior is not needed (maybe I could understand only in the title). No one is so stupid to not know Junior can be expressed with Jr. Dr Salvus 21:48, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Freestyle football
A recent deletion request (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashraful Islam Jhohan) has drawn my attention to Freestyle football. I'm aware that (despite the hyperbolic claims in the article) freestyle is a hyper-niche variant of minimal interest (the page averages around 50 views a day, about 1⁄6 those of Korfball), but even so this article is truly terrible in terms of both prose style and sourcing, if anyone fancies a stab at cleaning it up. (I do not volunteer to do ths myself; as far as I'm concerned 'freestyle' is just a fancy word for 'keepy-uppy'.) ‑ Iridescent 03:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)