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Olympian Notability
I'm reviewing our articles on early Olympians, and I was hoping you would be able to help find sources that show the following Olympic Cricketers meet WP:GNG. For the moment, I've tagged them with notability; if you can find sources, feel free to remove the tag otherwise I will do so.
Britain
- Arthur Birkett
- Frederick Cuming
Montagu TollerAlfred Bowerman- Alfred Powlesland
- Harry Corner
- Francis Burchell
- George Buckley (cricketer, born 1875)
France
- William Anderson (cricketer, born 1859)
- William Attrill
- John Braid
- W. Browning
- Robert Horne (cricketer)
- Arthur MacEvoy
- Douglas Robinson (French cricketer)
- H. F. Roques
- Alfred Schneidau
Philip Tomalin
BilledMammal (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Toller and Bowerman both played first-class cricket for Somerset. User:Harrias and User:Johnlp would be your best bets for info on Somerset cricketers. StickyWicket (talk) 09:05, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, hopefully they can help. BilledMammal (talk) 00:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- According to Olympedia.org, William Attrill was also captain of the first French football champions and Philip Tomalin was an important figure in establishing British sport in France.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Topcardi (talk • contribs) 17:12, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that will result in significant coverage for Attrill, but you make a good point about Tomalin. BilledMammal (talk) 20:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I've prodded the English cricketers, as I have been unable to find coverage, and it doesn't appear any editor here has been able to either. I haven't done the French Cricketers for now, as a review of the French Wikipedia articles revealed a source that may be SIGCOV for each of them. Questions of WP:ROUTINE will then apply, but if that source is SIGCOV I believe that discussion is better for AFD than a PROD. If an editor here has access to that source and can check, I would appreciate that; it's name is Le dictionnaire des Médaillés olympiques français. BilledMammal (talk) 07:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- You might want to check the Olympedia articles for hints about them as well - Roques, for example, won the French football championship with Standard - a major side at the time. Those ways in might lead to a reasonable assumption in some cases that there are many more sources that we simply can't access easily. Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've prodded the English cricketers, as I have been unable to find coverage, and it doesn't appear any editor here has been able to either. I haven't done the French Cricketers for now, as a review of the French Wikipedia articles revealed a source that may be SIGCOV for each of them. Questions of WP:ROUTINE will then apply, but if that source is SIGCOV I believe that discussion is better for AFD than a PROD. If an editor here has access to that source and can check, I would appreciate that; it's name is Le dictionnaire des Médaillés olympiques français. BilledMammal (talk) 07:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that will result in significant coverage for Attrill, but you make a good point about Tomalin. BilledMammal (talk) 20:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- According to Olympedia.org, William Attrill was also captain of the first French football champions and Philip Tomalin was an important figure in establishing British sport in France.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Topcardi (talk • contribs) 17:12, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, hopefully they can help. BilledMammal (talk) 00:27, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- What is the inclusion criteria on Olympians these days? (I seem to remember it has changed..?) I deprodded the one I set up without checking here first, sorry! Bobo. 10:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Personally as Toller and Bowerman have played FC cricket for Somerset, I believe they should go through the AfD process (given we've been able to improve a number of articles that have had discussions on them), and so have dePRODed them. Suitable alternatives to deletion can also be found that way if we don't find enough for GNG coverage. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:31, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's reasonable; I'll bring them to AFD soon. BilledMammal (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Personally as Toller and Bowerman have played FC cricket for Somerset, I believe they should go through the AfD process (given we've been able to improve a number of articles that have had discussions on them), and so have dePRODed them. Suitable alternatives to deletion can also be found that way if we don't find enough for GNG coverage. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:31, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Medallists are covered by WP:NOLYMPICS, unless they medalled in an event where all participants received medals. And entirely understandable; a lot of editors, even those paying close attention to the discussions, have missed a few of the many recent changes. BilledMammal (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- What is the inclusion criteria on Olympians these days? (I seem to remember it has changed..?) I deprodded the one I set up without checking here first, sorry! Bobo. 10:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I usually check them, and excluded a few from the list based on their Olympedia entries, but I didn't realize the significance of that detail; I've struck them for now, but I will need to look into them further later. BilledMammal (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Well they've pretty much all now been Prod'd, along with these two sent to AfD:
Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 13:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- There will be a section on both Toller and Bowerman in the first volume of the Somerset Cricketers series of books: I have volumes two and three with me here, but cannot see my copy of Volume One, and it's likely that it is elsewhere and that I won't be able to retrieve it for a couple of weeks, perhaps a bit longer. This series has an essay (usually 1,000 words or more) on every individual Somerset player, and there's no reason to suspect Toller and Bowerman will be any different. I'd be confident that would answer concerns about WP:SIGCOV; I've lost sight of where we are with WP:GNG, but my own view would be that an Olympic gold medallist and first-class cricketer should pass any notability test. Johnlp (talk) 22:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Sources and an alternative approach
So it seems that some work has been done on these blokes - and certainly there are articles from the fairly recent past in The Times - I've not got access to other archives - that deal with them in general terms. For example this article (which may be paywalled) from 7 July 1984 (p. 30) tells us some details, although not a huge amount. In other sources I think I can find Toller, for example, playing rugby and in the amateur golf championship (playing under East Brighton's colours). Searches rely on surnames though, which are not generally all that easy to do as you end up, in most cases, with scads of hits (Toller in the Time gives me >5,500 for example).
The Times article writes about an article in Sports Quarterly Magazine by John Goulstone and David Terry which might be worth someone who has Athens access trying to dig out perhaps.
Would a better approach be to redirect almost all of these to the article about cricket at the 1900 Olympics and to include the pen portraits we have of them in that article - perhaps as a table, perhaps in some other form (such as the stuff at this old CricInfo list)? This preserves the article history should a large amount of detail emerge about them and ensures that the details we do know are preserved properly. Thoughts? Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Cricinfo list is a little out of date by now. Beachcroft has had a whole book published about him since then. https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-lifes-great-charmers-well-loved/dp/0954396723 Topcardi (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- And all these are now at AfD...
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Birkett
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Cuming
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry Corner
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Francis Burchell
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Buckley (cricketer, born 1875)
Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:19, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for mentioning that. In the future, if you believe a redirect is the most appropriate option, I do not mind if you remove the prod and instead redirect the article - examples like Frederick Cuming, where a redirect is not suitable due to the existence of Frederick Cuming (artist), can be discussed at RFD or an RM. BilledMammal (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need a tabular squad list on these articles with brief biographical details about each player, like in List of English cricketers (1826–1840), and those who fail CRIN and GNG can be redirected there? StickyWicket (talk) 10:10, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I would think that's doable. Blue Square Thing (talk) 20:11, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need a tabular squad list on these articles with brief biographical details about each player, like in List of English cricketers (1826–1840), and those who fail CRIN and GNG can be redirected there? StickyWicket (talk) 10:10, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for mentioning that. In the future, if you believe a redirect is the most appropriate option, I do not mind if you remove the prod and instead redirect the article - examples like Frederick Cuming, where a redirect is not suitable due to the existence of Frederick Cuming (artist), can be discussed at RFD or an RM. BilledMammal (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Cricket poetry
The current article is at AfD. It needs a complete rewrite and could be an interesting article on cricket in poetry, or something similar along those lines. Not really my area, but leaving it here if someone fancies a challenge! StickyWicket (talk) 10:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- There once was a fielder from Nantucket... Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:12, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Another RfD
Hi. Following on from a recent AfD, please see this discussion. Thanks! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:37, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
A Team tour at AfD
No, not that A-Team, but this one. I love it when an AfD comes together... Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:55, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- If this tour has been tagged as a AFD then those articles which are falls under this category also needs an AFD. In my opinion. Fade258 (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it has more to do with the updated WP:NCRIC. Those articles in the category were created before the update. Human (talk) 18:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. Some of those pages look OK, and would probably pass WP:GNG. I'm not going to do a batch-nom right now, but I will look at each one over the next few weeks. I see several have been created by the editor who created the page at AfD, along with an editor who was blocked for being a sock. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 06:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- I guess it has more to do with the updated WP:NCRIC. Those articles in the category were created before the update. Human (talk) 18:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
Associate cricket season template
Hi all, Can we create this template {{subst:Associate cricket in 2022}} as there is other template for full nation team i.e {{subst:International cricket in 2022}}? If we aren't able to add the international series relating to associate cricket in International cricket in 2022 then I thought that we can create that template which I had mentioned above which are in red. Thoughts will be welcomed. Thank you! Fade258 (talk) 15:25, 11 May 2022 (UTC)