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G13 delay (again)
This proposal is unsuccessful. Many editors expressed skepticism that adding a one-week delay to G13 deletions would actually achieve the benefit that the proposal seeks. If the desired outcome is notification of editors who might be interested in the draft (e.g. WikiProjects), some editors pointed out that this notification could be sent at some point before the draft becomes eligible for G13 and that this would avoid adding unnecessary complexity to the deletion process. Some editors also expressed openness to the idea of replacing G13 with a DRAFTPROD process, but additional discussion is needed to determine whether that is something this community desires. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 07:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Edited 18:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC).
This has been discussed a few times before, but I believe there are clear benefits to implementing a one-week (or similar) delay to G13 deletions.
Currently, a bot notifies the page creator at five months of draft inactivity. However, there is no mechanism to alert other editors who may be watching the draft or monitoring it through WikiProjects. By implementing a delay, this will allow time for editors watching the page to check the draft, and maybe rescue it before it's deleted, sparing the need to go through the WP:REFUND process. This could also be integrated into WP:Article Alerts, allowing more potential rescues from WikiProject watchers.
Looking briefly through some past discussions, I see that some opposition to such proposals have been along the following lines, to which I respond:
- If a draft has been stale for six months, what good would an additional week do?
- As described above, it would allow regular editors, who may not have noticed the draft having gone stale, to take a new look and maybe rescue it.
- There's already a bot giving notifications at five months
- These notifications are posted at the talk page of the draft creator, and are useless for attracting the attention of other regular editors who may be interested in rescuing the draft. (Having the bot also post notifications at the draft talk pages would also work, though the delay approach seems easier.)
- Let's scrap G13 and implement DRAFTPROD instead
- While this approach would also solve the issues I raise, it seems unlikely to gain consensus, given the concerns that a more complicated approach than a straightforward CSD criterion might not be adequate in dealing with the large amount of stale drafts generated each day.
--Paul_012 (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Note: I've rewritten the proposal as above, seeing as the main points weren't being effectively communicated. The original post is hatted below. --Paul_012 (talk)
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I'm sure this has already been discussed numerous times, but what exactly has been keeping the suggestion to implement a delay between the CSD tag being placed and a draft being deleted under G13, like the current behaviour of C1, from gaining consensus? I can see clear benefits to such an approach. For example, say an active editor regularly checks InceptionBot's lists of new pages for relevant articles and drafts, and adds some potential drafts to their watchlist, or tags the draft talk pages with relevant WikiProject banners. Naturally, the editor wouldn't want to interfere while the draft creator is still actively working on it. But if the creator stops editing and the draft becomes stale, the active editor is unlikely to notice until six months later, when the G13 tag is placed and the draft is almost immediately deleted. Adding a delay of, say, one week between tagging and deletion will give a chance for the active editor to take a look and maybe rescue the draft, without having to go through the hassle of a REFUND. If such a delay is implemented, it could also be integrated with the WP:Article Alerts process, allowing more potential rescues by watchers of a WikiProject's AA page. Are there other concerns I'm missing? Pinging AAlertBot maintainers Hellknowz and Headbomb—would such Article Alerts integration be feasible? --Paul_012 (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2021 (UTC) |
- Just ask the bot operator to create a log page and the problem is solved. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 21:28, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Oiyarbepsy, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're referring to. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm talking about that bot that notifies the draft creator at five months - have that bot create a log of who was notified and what draft. That way anyone has a list available if they want to review drafts. Fundamentally, there is no problem with the speedy delete criteria, the problem is there is no list of drafts that are eligible. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- That might be useful for editors willing to sift through all drafts in the pool for those worth rescuing, but it doesn't solve the case in my example. Such a list would be only be practically useful if it was narrowed down to a smaller area of interest. I'm probably interested in a handful of drafts which are already on my watchlist or tagged with a related WikiProject banner. Even if the bot logged notifications in a central location, nothing in my watchlist will have been touched, and the log, listing hundreds of drafts each day, is useless to me for monitoring the pages I'm interested in. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm talking about that bot that notifies the draft creator at five months - have that bot create a log of who was notified and what draft. That way anyone has a list available if they want to review drafts. Fundamentally, there is no problem with the speedy delete criteria, the problem is there is no list of drafts that are eligible. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Oiyarbepsy, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're referring to. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- I'm fairly neutral on the extra week (might avoid some unnecessary work at WP:REFUND, but unlikely to be very much), but I'm not sure that this will really solve the OP's problem. If you really want to watch certain drafts, you should not rely on seeing the notification on your watchlist (very easy to miss), but just make a list of them as a page in your userspace and check on and improve all promising drafts every once in a while. —Kusma (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Watch the creator's talk page. If they do nothing or almost nothing except create the draft you're interested in, it'll only show up on your watchlist when the draft's approaching deletion. If they're so active that their talk page pops up on your watchlist enough to be a bother, they're unlikely to let the draft just get deleted anyway. If they're in between, then someone who's created a promising draft and is somewhat active is probably worth mentoring. —Cryptic 10:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- I would support this. The idea of a time delay is perfectly consistent with a speedy deletion criterion (e.g. F4, F5, F6, F7, F11) and it doesn't make much sense to delete a draft if there's someone still interested in it. It's also entirely possible for someone other than the creator to be interested in a draft and its deletion, and right now there isn't any workable way a watcher could be notified of an impending G13 deletion. As a regular at REFUND (which often gets backlogged) I do often see requests from people to restore recently deleted drafts, so this would reduce the amount of work there as well. Hut 8.5 11:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Strong support. This would create a place where editors can see which drafts will be deleted in the upcoming week and give one final chance for anything salvageable to be worked on, not just by the draft's author, but from anyone else patrolling the G13 tags. -- Tavix (talk) 13:29, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- As I described here, one solution would simply be to have all articles in Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions included in the Article Alerts list. That would go a long way toward resolving the issue. (I could conceivably support the underlying proposal, but I'd first like to see if there are any simpler solutions.) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose as written, and because it doesn't actually solve OP's concern. We already have a bot that notifies authors prior to deletion. I suppose we could have the bot notify users again a week before their drafts become G13-eligible, but like others above, I don't see that significantly reducing the number of REFUND requests. For the record, I'm in favor of DRAFTPROD, even though it's effectively WP:PEREN at this point. -FASTILY 23:45, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support either this or DRAFTPROD. I have a slight preference for DRAFTPROD, as it gets rid of the "speedy" misnomer, and because it would allow drafts to be deleted earlier than 6 months if no one objects. But either one is preferable to the current arrangement. – bradv🍁 23:54, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. We have a bot that gives 5 month warnings, that effectively does what this proposal is proposing. Please see User:FireflyBot and Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Bot0612 11. See Special:Diff/1032362942 for an example of the message given. With this in mind, adding additional steps and complexity to G13 does not make sense to me. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- As for the DRAFTPROD idea, is this proposing to get rid of CSD G13 and replace it with DRAFTPROD only? Wouldn't this just clog up MFD with people contesting DRAFTPROD removals? That's what happens with many regular PROD removals... I go through my PROD log regularly and AFD any of my PRODs that are removed without fixing the underlying notability issue. Could also lead to some ugly mass DRAFTPRODs and mass un-DRAFTPRODs. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:29, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose adding more rules to this is not the way to go. I'd support DRAFTPROD in addition to the current G13 process, but I don't see G13 as inherently problematic. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. There is already a six month delay and several warnings before it expires, and G13 deletions are REFUND eligible if someone later decides it's a potentially viable article subject. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:35, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. With there already being a six months delay after the last edit, a bot giving a message at the 5 month mark, and the fact that G13'd articles are elgible for REFUND I don't see a added benefit. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 10:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Strong support Having a 7-day delay in policy, as is already the case with C1, F4 and F6 would be good, as it would give a reliable way to see what drafts are soon becoming eligible for deletion. The few users who work on rescuing worthwhile content (User:DGG et al) are currently forced to rely on the broken Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions -- which is well known to miss a lot of items due to caching (see Wikipedia:Bot requests#Help needed, which is the just the most recent thread about this). Also the bot doesn't catch everything (I believe it's only for AFC-tagged drafts) and nor has it been particularly reliable -- the task has already changed hands between 3 operators in a short time. It's very unsettling that currently policy allows for deletion of harmless pages without a prior notice to the creator. – SD0001 (talk) 13:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- SD0001, except it doesn't, since Firefly's bot delivers a message a month in advance telling the page creator it will be eligible for deletion in a month. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 12:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- I already covered that above. Bots can come and go. They are not required to run. And indeed this bot wasn't running for more than a year, before Firefly took it over. We should not be reliant on bots for issues that are better solved by policy changes. WP:G13 does not say that pages are eligible for deletion only if Fireflybot notified the creator a month back. – SD0001 (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- SD0001, except it doesn't, since Firefly's bot delivers a message a month in advance telling the page creator it will be eligible for deletion in a month. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 12:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm finding it a bit ironically amusing and disconcerting that so many people are commenting with exactly the same arguments that I thought I had already pre-emptively refuted in the original post. (Q: "If a draft has been stale for six months, what good would an additional week do? A: "It would allow regular editors, who may not have noticed the draft having gone stale, to take a new look and maybe rescue it." Q: "There's already a bot giving notifications at five months" A: "These notifications are posted at the talk page of the draft creator, and are useless for attracting the attention of other regular editors.") Either I'm a terrible communicator, or maybe... could it be that folks could perhaps maybe take just a little bit more time to actually read through the entire proposal?
That said, Extraordinary Writ's suggestion for integrating Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions into Article Alerts seems very promising, and I will follow up on that route should this proposal fizzle out. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC) - Support basically per bradv. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support but only as PROD or the equivalent; it will do much better in a separate group , than in regular speedy, because of the size there are over 50/day. This is 350/7 days, and that's much too large for speedy as it presently works, which is actually quite speedy. Paul012, I don't think you've considered this) At present I regularly patrol the 5+ month category, which is in roughly chronological order. Out of each group of 200, I find about 10 that I think merit further consideration. A few are those that had been declined improperly, and could be accepted; more are ones that have been properly declined, but never looked at again. Some have never even been submitted, and a few of them would be immediately acceptable, but more after a little fixing. (about 1/3 of each group are suitable for merge, rather than as separate articles--they've often been marked for merge, but nobody has merged them--dealing with most would be quite easy.) The true number rescuable is probably twice that, because I do not look at sports or popular entertainment, two fields where I'm incompetent, but many others here would be knowledgable.
- The objection that people could have rescued them before, is invalid, because almost nobody does that, because of the number to deal with--this would highlight them. The objection that the editor could always ask for them back, is invalid because most of hte time the original editor, having been once discouraged, is long gone==this is especially unfortunate when they're from editathons or similar projects. Anf nobody else knows of them once they're gone, because deleted articles are not readily even for admins, searchable unless you know they exist, or know the exact title.
- And it's worth doing: among the ones I've personally rescued in the last week are several people in major academies of science, or authors with multiple published books that have probably been reviewed, or members of legislatures, or subjects with extensive good articles in other WPs. Most would otherwise probably be lost to us for years or forever--and similarly for the very few other patrollers. DGG ( talk ) 22:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support as a seperate group as suggested above. The problem is that drafts are deleted in a blink of an eye by certain admins without allowing oversight by unconnected editors whose first sight of the drafts is at speedy deletion and where they are not given time to read even a line or two, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 01:03, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support when I was a new-ish editor I had a draft nominated for G13 when I was busy with high school [1] and recieved a talk page notice [2], but by the time I had read it (which was the same day), the draft was already deleted. I think that a week-delay would be useful because it will give new editors time to actually edit the draft before it is deleted. Clovermoss (talk) 02:49, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss: currently a bot notifies the draft creator after five months that there is one month until potential deletion (from this BRFA, it looks like). Did this not happen in your case? Would it have solved the problem? — Bilorv (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Bilorv: No, I wasn't notified by bot. I see that the BRFA was in 2018 and this happened in 2019, so I'm not sure what happened. Since my main issue was not being notified until the day of the deletion itself, yes this would have solved my main issue with what happened. Clovermoss (talk) 01:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
The five month notice bot was entirely down from March 2019 to February 2021. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:51, 9 July 2021 (UTC)See below for a correct explanation. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Bilorv: No, I wasn't notified by bot. I see that the BRFA was in 2018 and this happened in 2019, so I'm not sure what happened. Since my main issue was not being notified until the day of the deletion itself, yes this would have solved my main issue with what happened. Clovermoss (talk) 01:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss: currently a bot notifies the draft creator after five months that there is one month until potential deletion (from this BRFA, it looks like). Did this not happen in your case? Would it have solved the problem? — Bilorv (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Suggestion: How about creating a bot to automatically handle draft undeletion requests? It would work by detecting the template
{{g13-undelete}}
on the draft's target page, and said bot will undelete prior revisions, which would save time.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.114.107.105 (talk • contribs)
- Doesn't sound like a great idea, pages deleted under G13 do sometimes contain copyright violations, spam that could be deleted under G11, etc. The bot wouldn't be able to detect these. Hut 8.5 11:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. They've already had 6 months, how long more do they need? It just gives another chance for people to keep abandoned drafts. Stifle (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. This would just make deleting these drafts even more complicated. The editor with the stale draft definitely has enough time to choose to edit it and they get a notice at 5 months. I think we need to encourage people to edit drafts. We could do this in lots of different ways (giving them another notice about the possible G13 earlier on, encouraging people to help edit promising drafts, etc.) but the deletion criteria should not be changed. I think it is fair as it is, especially as they are usually undeleted if you go to WP:REFUND. --Ferien (talk) 18:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose as not a practical process. The proposed change does not practically provide more opportunity to rescue drafts since there is already ample notification and adding another layer of hoops to ump through does not improve the chances that these will become useful articles. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose - let's scrap G13 and implement DRAFTPROD instead. I don't understand the "more complicated" argument: there's already a mechanism to categorize and notify admins of PRODded and BLPPRODded articles that have been flagged for the mandated minimum time, it's merely a simple matter of adapting that to DRAFTPROD. There is presently no mechanism for "speedy-plus-mandatory-delay" deletion, that is what would be complicated. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose If it needs to wait a week, it ain't "speedy". Also oppose a PROD-like procedure (though there is a good chance that I am misunderstanding the concept), because a stale draft is a de facto PROD announced for over six months. Creating (or improving) some process to make it easy(er) to find promising drafts would be welcome - some template and category(s)? - Nabla (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Nabla: Some speedy criteria - such as C1 and several of the F criteria - already have a grace period. It's not a new idea. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Redrose64: Yes, I know. I also disagree with those :-) The few times I go admin'ing around most of it I do speedy (or otherwise obvious) deletions - so I can help a little, using the quite few available time I have currently - I never do categories or files because they are not really "speedy". They are prods in disguise, aren't they? - Nabla (talk) 11:53, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Nabla: Some speedy criteria - such as C1 and several of the F criteria - already have a grace period. It's not a new idea. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support though I would prefer to scrap G13 and implement DRAFTPROD instead. I don't see any practical problems with a delay from a bot tagging G13 to the article being deleted; we do something similar with some files and categories already. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 21:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support: looks to me like people who are saving drafts from deletion are saying this would be useful to them, and people who are not doing this are saying that they shouldn't find it useful. I'm going to go with the people actually doing this. Several credible use cases for this have been given, and as we already have some delay conditions in our CSDs, I don't see that this would cause any particular pain in practice (the drafts have been sat there for six months so it's not a problem for them to sit there for another week). And the OP is right that they anticipated and pre-emptively gave strong arguments against the most common objections; people should not really be opposing unless they read the initial proposal and can explain why the given counter-arguments are unsuitable. — Bilorv (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Because I spend much of my day & evening dealing with CSD G13s, I'm going to stay neutral about proposals to change the current system but I have a few comments that I hope folks pay attention to. I'm sorry that I haven't read all of the comments above this one. Whatever change is contemplated has to be able to scale. I have worked with the stale draft pages daily since September 2020 and the number of aging drafts expiring each day is anywhere between 150-400 drafts, with an average of about 200-225 drafts expiring each day or at least 1500 drafts/week. So, whatever change is made won't be to one draft that might be of interest to you but has to work with hundreds of drafts, daily. By comparison, I also work with PRODs and the daily number of PRODs expiring is between 20-40 articles/day. Multiply that times 10 and that is what you will be working with.
- We are very lucky to have DGG, who spends much of his time evaluating expiring drafts and delaying deletion of the most promising ones. I'd say that he catches probably 90-95% of promising drafts that are due to expire which is amazing to me. What we could really use is to have a couple more editors scan the daily SDZeroBot lists, (like User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon) and review drafts that will be expiring soon. It would be much, much easier for editors to review the entire G13 soon list on a regular basis than to institute major changes in how stale drafts are handled when there are at least a dozen editors and admins who currently work with them. The SDZeroBot G13 soon list already gives you a week's advance notice on which drafts are due to expire which seems to be what some folks here are asking for. Final word, there might be easier alternatives to achieve your goals than scrapping the current system. Liz Read! Talk! 03:21, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Liz and I seem to deliberately work in a way that complements each other; if someone wants to share the responsibility, they might want to try yet another of the overlapping possibilities. (If Liz thinks I catch this many, it's probably because the ones in sports and popular entertainments that get this far without being made into articles are almost entirely hopeless. (I also do not bother with the ones still in a non-English language--if they've been copied from another WP without being even roughly translated, no work is lost if they're started over again. ) I think they and I and anyone else working here knows what the most important fix would be--the same as would fix all other problem areas in Wikipedia--more people working here. After that the system that does need rewriting from scratch is not isolated parts of the afc system, but the entire system--the AFCH. macro has been patched so many times it would best be rewritten from scratch; like many Wikipedia systems it has accumulated features & special cases that sounded nice, but are almost never used.
- What I'd love to see, is work in another direction: not just categorizing drafts, but of matching them with individual active reviewers--this should be a interesting AI project that could also work at NPP and AFD and suggested merges, etc. The wikiproject approach works well in a few fields only--and in those few fields where I know it works, like the military, I refer problems to it. DGG ( talk ) 07:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)That list doesn't address the main situation raised by the OP: when an editor has an interest in a draft they didn't create. Maybe they made substantial contributions to it, and have it on their watchlist. Right now they won't get any notification that it's about to be deleted until at most a few hours before, which is far too soon to contest it. A list of all G13 deletions doesn't help with that at all. What are they supposed to do - go through a giant list on a regular basis to see if the drafts they are interested in are listed there? I don't see how the proposed system would be any more onerous than the current one. As now you tag it and it gets deleted. No effort is required to institute the week of delay. Hut 8.5 07:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- It would appear on your watchlist when an admin deletes it, at which point you could just REFUND. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Once it's deleted, the text can no longer be seen. So most of the time people won't recall whether the content was worthy or not. Also, for new users, it isn't trivial to "just REFUND". – SD0001 (talk) 13:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- I presumed the purpose of this proposal was for more experienced editors watching or wanting to be notified of drafts, not for new editors, as per
Currently, a bot notifies the page creator at five months of draft inactivity. However, there is no mechanism to alert other editors who may be watching the draft or monitoring it through WikiProjects. By implementing a delay, this will allow time for editors watching the page to check the draft, and maybe rescue it before it's deleted
ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- I presumed the purpose of this proposal was for more experienced editors watching or wanting to be notified of drafts, not for new editors, as per
- Once it's deleted, the text can no longer be seen. So most of the time people won't recall whether the content was worthy or not. Also, for new users, it isn't trivial to "just REFUND". – SD0001 (talk) 13:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- It would appear on your watchlist when an admin deletes it, at which point you could just REFUND. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support. I think some notice on the draft itself is important. --Bsherr (talk) 11:58, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
- There is negligible difference between 6 months and 6 months + 1 week. If this idea will make some editors happier, then I think it's simply irrational to oppose it. But, draft space is mainly a compost heap, full of stuff that's rotten or best used as fertilizer for another article, and our sysops are busy, so we do need to allow it to be cleansed with the absolute minimum of process.—S Marshall T/C 23:59, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose per Stifle. We have too many drafts, most of which are junk. If one editor can't get their ducks in a row quickly enough, certainly another editor will come along with the time and needed references to do the job correctly. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:58, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. 6 months is long enough. Don't turn G13 into a CSD-PROD mudblood. Natureium (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support Many of the opposes focus on that the draft creator has ample time and warnings to rescue their draft, but none of them address that other editors do not get this warning, and interested parties only get a few hours notice. It is unreasonable to ask them to monitor the entire list of drafts nearing 6 months, nor for them to track drafts for 6 months to avoid deletion. We have the ability to categorize CSD's by date (example: Category:Orphaned non-free use Wikipedia files), so I don't see how it would complicate things significantly. If even only 5-10 drafts are saved by the extra week, I still see that as a major improvement to the depth of knowledge available to readers. I'm also supportive of any alternative proposal that would notify interested parties that are watching the draft (DRAFTPROD, talk page...). Jumpytoo Talk 02:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose per S Marshall. This is just scope creep and additional complexity that won't do anything to actually improve/'save' the drafts. Ask Headbomb to add them to Article alerts or something, that would be a more meaningful change. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- Neutral to weak support. I am somewhat persuaded by the notion that some drafts may be watched by non-admins, and these watchers (who might potentially help) don't get a notification that a draft is soon to be deleted, and they may not know what the draft is once it's deleted. On the other hand, I doubt this happens often enough to really worry about. Overall, I have mixed feelings about G13 vs. DRAFTPROD. I wish that there were a prod-type mechanism for submissions other than businesses, products, bands, and living people (and maybe some additional categories of almost-certain-to-be-garbage that I'd have to think about... these categories make up most of the garbage drafts, though not all). There is some good stuff that gets deleted, but I'm not sure that giving an extra week will do anything. I highly encourage others to monitor User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon. With the sorting of the chart and the inclusion of a sentence or so, you can generally quickly identify anything that is worthwhile in the list. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. Redundant to the delay that already exists. Sandstein 16:57, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. If you want to alert WikiProjects or whatever, that should just be done a weak earlier. Proposing G-13 be "6 months + 1 week" is... unhelpful. Alsee (talk) 21:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose per many above, particularly Stifle and S Marshall. If people want to come up with bots or other notification processes to get more attention on imminently-deleted drafts, then great. But G13 is an important and still quite high-volume process that primarily cleanses an awful lot of terrible content - it is not productive to apply unnecessary extra process to it. People can and should be encouraged to save drafts, but adding an extra week's complexity is not a particularly efficient solution. ~ mazca talk 23:21, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose If the editor wasn't there for 6 months, why should he/she be expected to come back in 1 week? 🐔 Chicdat Bawk to me! 12:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- Support I sometimes go through draftspace and look for stuff that seems reasonably promising, and add it to my watchlist. Then one day it gets deleted and I'm like, "What was that article again and do I want to do something about it?" But by then it's too late unless I want to go through the additional steps at WP:REFUND Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:26, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose - 6 months is more than enough time for abandoned drafts to be rescued—that's the point of the six months to begin with. I'm all for efforts to save potentially useful drafts, but that would reasonably look like a task force or Wikiproject that monitors abandoned drafts that are approaching deletion and sends out notifications to interested parties who have opted-in to the task of reviewing and working on abandoned drafts, all before the 6 month deadline ever hits. Jamming up the project-wide deletion process, which is already lenient and reasonable, for every single abandoned draft, based on the assumption that there are probably some diamonds in the rough that maybe somebody somewhere might rescue is just Kafkaesque. ~Swarm~ {sting} 18:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose per Alsee. The one week alert should be part of the 6 months period. Jay (Talk) 15:05, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. It's not a speedy deletion if there is a built in delay; I agree with the other reasons to oppose. 331dot (talk) 15:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose, for many reasons set out by numerous editors above, so I won't repeat them all, but I will emphasise two essential points. (1) Editors have already had plenty of time to improve drafts in six months, and there's no reason to believe that an extra week is really going to make a significant difference. (Some of the editors who put time into "rescuing" drafts may think that this change would result in their rescuing more of them, but unless they put more time into rescue work the result would very likely be that they would just rescue different ones, not more of them. And of course putting more time in would stand to rescue more drafts with or without the proposed change.) (2) Adding yet one more bit of complexity to a process is a bad thing unless there really is an overriding benefit, which there isn't in this case. Year by year Wikipedia builds up more and more little details and complexities, with the result that editing is much more difficult for new editors to learn than it was. No, this is a reform we are better off without. JBW (talk) 18:27, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose While I support the RFC's intention, I suggest that there's a better way to achieve the desired outcome. A process that we've already got in place is the notification of the draft's editor at the 5-month mark. I suggest that we slightly broaden what we do at this point, and not just notify the editor on their talk page, but for the bot to also either post a banner on the draft or leave a notification on the draft's talk page. What I was unaware of is that the 5-month bot notification was down for 23 months and this is a major concern, as we cannot possibly expect new users to have to ask for REFUND. I refer to User:Clovermoss's experience above and would prefer to formalise a 5-months notification process for draft creators as part of the G13 process. But as I say, it's that process that we might as well broaden to achieve the objectives of this RFC rather than invent an additional process. Schwede66 20:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note that I misspoke earlier on this page, and the bot was actually only down from March to October 2019 and then from June 2020 to February 2021 (with the exception of a two-week period in August 2020). * Pppery * it has begun... 23:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Pppery, if we have FireflyBot to consistently send out talk notifications, there's clearly no real problem to solve here. However, I'd be curious as to why it was down for several months in the first place, and more importantly, how likely is it to go down again? AngryHarpytalk 11:07, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Having a bot also deliver five-month notifications to the draft talk page (or post a banner on the draft itself) is an alternative solution that I would also support. I didn't imagine (and frankly still don't quite understand why) this proposal would generate so much opposition, and IIRC this bot task had been suggested before, with no response, which is why I suggested the delayed deletion approach here. I will further inquire upon this path when this discussion ends without consensus, as seems likely. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note that I misspoke earlier on this page, and the bot was actually only down from March to October 2019 and then from June 2020 to February 2021 (with the exception of a two-week period in August 2020). * Pppery * it has begun... 23:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. This just adds 3.85 % to the delay of processing the compost in Draft namespace. Unlikely that any additional rescue of the very few salvageable drafts that are still lingering after six months of inactivity will occur. jni(talk)(delete) 07:31, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose - No need to change it from "delete after 6 months of inactivity" to "delete after 6 months and 1 week of inactivity". Anarchyte (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose - I don't see how modifying a speedy deletion policy is perceived as being more difficult than re-coding a bot to add a notification to the draft page a week before deletion. The latter would probably take less than an hour's work, and wouldn't require carrying out an RfC and convincing half of Wikipedia. Modifying speedy deletion policies can result in unintended consequences. Take the path of least resistance. —ScottyWong— 15:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Support makes sense given some may be appropriate for mainspace anyway. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose since a truly promising draft will either attract enough interest to continue delaying deletion or will be tagged with {{promising draft}}. Adding one week is pointless when editors have had six months to work with it. Draft space is not meant to be indefinite and this change seems to be a step in that direction.
5225C (talk • contributions) 13:22, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
CSD G4s
I have noticed a lot of variety in how this criteria is handled by administrators. My question today arises from Cheman Shaik which was deleted through the AFD process (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheman Shaik). The page was userfied and months later approved through Articles for Creation, moved to main space and, basically, immediately tagged for deletion and deleted. And yet, this is the route that I tell editors to use if they want to overcome an AFD deletion decision. In general, beyond this particular article, shouldn't AFC approval count towards keeping an article? I know some admins carefully check previous, deleted versions of tagged articles to see if problems have been addressed but I don't think this happens every time based on how quickly these pages are tagged & deleted.
What is really troubling to me is when editors tag drafts for CSD G4 deletion...I've seen some admins remove the tag and say G4 doesn't apply to Draft space and other admins who just delete the draft. My point of view is that an AFD decision, especially one with limited participation (which wasn't the case with Cheman Shaik) shouldn't be destiny and final. There should be a way to overcome an AFD deletion decision especially ones from long ago when there might have been two or three editors voting to Delete. Thoughts? Liz Read! Talk! 21:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that "substantially identical" is highly subjective. We've never had a formal process for recreation, and that's fine, but it does mean that some go through WP:DRV, some go through the deleting admin's talk page, some go through AfC, and some are just recreated in place and never challenged since the notability is obvious enough by that point. As a result, there is no consistent rule on whether community consensus is required to overturn an AfD with the presentation of additional sourcing. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
- The G criteria apply in all namespaces except those specifically excluded (such as User: space for G2). G4 says that it excludes
content that has been moved to user space or converted to a draft for explicit improvement (but not simply to circumvent Wikipedia's deletion policy)
- the key thing here is the phrase "for explicit improvement" - if a G4-eligible article is moved to Draft: space and then left alone, it's still eligible for G4. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)- But for how long? It obviously wouldn't be eligible for G4 after 1 second, before anyone has had the chance to improve it. If the rule is 6 months, then we don't need G4 as G13 will serve perfectly fine. If we want to set some different threshold, then we need to spell it out explicitly as CSDs are meant to minimize subjectivity.
- My view is that any page which exists in its current form with the implicit endorsement of an admin is automatically ineligible for G4. If an admin consistently restores pages improperly, then we should talk about desysopping them, but before that we shouldn't reverse their actions willy-nilly. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:55, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- The more that I think about this, and the actions I've taken as an admin, there is a difference between articles that are repeatedly recreated (like those that appear to be paid editing) being deleted as drafts and those that are good faith efforts by editors to create better versions of articles that were AFD deleted, typically because of a lack of notability. The problem with this situation is that it does involve a subjective decision by admins which might be why there is some variability in how admins, as a group, handle these cases in Draft space. Liz Read! Talk! 01:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hold up, someone is speedy deleting pages that were approved through articles for creation? Some serious trout slapping seems called for Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- Based on recent patrolling of CSD categories and visits to WP:REFUND, I wouldn't say it happens frequently but, yes, it happens. Most of the time, the page creators accept it, and I assume, don't stick around, but if they go seek solutions, they are typically referred to the deleting administrators which, from what I've seen, does not usually result in a page restoration. Liz Read! Talk! 05:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I would question whether such a person should be an administrator Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Oiyarbepsy. If a page has been accepted at AfC then it should not be speedily deleted unless G5, G7 or G12 apply. Indeed I'd be happy to explicitly codify that G4 does not apply in draft space (if it's not being improved G13 will apply, if it is G4 wont apply anyway) and that it doesn't apply to any page that has been through AfC.
Additionally, if anyone raises a good faith objection to the speedy deletion of any page, before or after it was deleted, then it is not eligible for speedy deletion as the deletion was not uncontroversial. Thryduulf (talk) 09:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Oiyarbepsy. If a page has been accepted at AfC then it should not be speedily deleted unless G5, G7 or G12 apply. Indeed I'd be happy to explicitly codify that G4 does not apply in draft space (if it's not being improved G13 will apply, if it is G4 wont apply anyway) and that it doesn't apply to any page that has been through AfC.
- I would question whether such a person should be an administrator Oiyarbepsy (talk) 06:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- Based on recent patrolling of CSD categories and visits to WP:REFUND, I wouldn't say it happens frequently but, yes, it happens. Most of the time, the page creators accept it, and I assume, don't stick around, but if they go seek solutions, they are typically referred to the deleting administrators which, from what I've seen, does not usually result in a page restoration. Liz Read! Talk! 05:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I strongly share Liz's concerns, and some more. Many admins are trigger-happily applying G4 over-liberally and inappropriately. I've recently (a few months ago) had to go through a DRV for a page which was newly created and bore no resemblance whatsoever to any previously deleted version, yet was speedily deleted by an admin who refused to reverse course. Judging from glances at other DRVs, such occurrences are way more common that they should be. (In just the past week, I see two cases of G4 deletions citing AfDs which took place ten years ago or more!) G4 should only be used to prevent re-creations of deleted pages and should almost never apply to good-faith creations by different, uninvolved editors (with the possible exception of categories and some other non-articles).
The problem, I think, is that G4 is being overstretched beyond its intended spirit. Instead of preventing re-creations of deleted pages, it is also being used to block the creation of new pages about topics previously deemed unworthy. While such actions may be warranted, they should not be within the scope of G4, since it is always entirely possible that the subject of an article created by a COI editor and deleted at AfD may later become notable and created by a good-faith editor. Instead, another process (maybe a new CSD criterion?) is probably needed to prevent COI/paid editors from gaming the system. Re-education of admins will be needed.
Also, agree with codifying non-applicability to pages passed through AfC, restored pages, and possibly all drafts. (Though the fact alone that this needs to be codified raises serious judgment concerns, which probably won't be resolved without addressing underlying issue.) --Paul_012 (talk) 10:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC) – 10:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)- And we have another fresh example of this blatant G4 abuse with the deletion of Miss Grand, a page previously subjected to improper G4 deletion which was overturned at DRV, and most recently brought to AfD with a no consensus result. I'd like to invite the offending admin User:Dodger67 to weigh in on the issues being discussed here, and maybe shed some light on the underlying problems and possible approaches to addressing them. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:34, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Passing AfC doesn't mean something is exempt from G4, and it shouldn't. Passing AfC just means that the AfC reviewer thinks the subject is plausibly notable (if the reviewer is doing their job). However plenty of content is deleted at AfD despite somebody arguing that the subject is notable, so even an exact recreation of a page deleted at AfD can still pass AfC review. As the reviewer may not be an admin it may not be possible for them to check that the content is similar to the deleted version anyway. I think the case of Cheman Shaik was a perfectly valid G4 - when the article was deleted at AfD the creator got it draftified, made some largely superficial changes (they only seem to have added one new reference, for example) and got it moved back to mainspace only a few months after it was deleted at AfD. Doing that doesn't entitle you to get a rerun of the AfD every few months. G4 definitely shouldn't be used to delete drafts of articles deleted at AfD though, in draftspace G4 only applies to drafts deleted at MfD. This is because a draft is substantially different to an article. Hut 8.5 12:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I somewhat agree with Hut 8.5. Passing AfC is merely the judgment of a single reviewer that the article is like to survive a deletion discussion. It certainly doesn't exempt from afd, and it shouldn't exempt from speedy when there is a clear reason. Reviewers don't always notice everything, and if an admin see something wrong that has been overlooked , and G4 is one of the things that are very often overlooked, they ought to proceed accordingly. Naturally, they should do it carefully. As King of Hearts says also, often restoring to raft space is better. But if it's clear enough, not always. The entire afc process is too idiosyncratic for fixed rules--people engaged in any aspect of it must have good judgment, and use it. . DGG ( talk ) 03:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
U5 vs. draft space
WP:U5 currently only applies to userspace. This seems not entirely thorough enough, since there are sometimes pages which would also fall under the criteria (which are "blatant misuse of Wikipedia as a webhost") which are in draftspace, ex. Draft:Muhammad Umar Khan (MU Khan). I wonder whether it would be wise to simply get rid of the userspace limitation (potentially making this criteria G14G15, and expanding it to include not just writing but also images (compare with commons:Commons:F10) and similar misuses. Any support for this? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:34, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- WP:G14 already exists, so... G15? Primefac (talk) 18:51, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Primefac: Fixed :) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- I've thought exactly the same thing before. Userspace is supposed to have laxer guidelines than draftspace, so it makes little sense to apply NOTWEBHOST to the former but not to the latter. I would certainly support, e.g., a six-month trial of making this G15, although it'll be important to clarify it should be construed narrowly and not as a catch-all. (The key word would be "blatant": if there's any ambiguity at all, send it to XfD.) But if interpreted correctly, it could certainly relieve some of the pressure on MfD etc. without risking abuse. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- The question would be (in line with #3 of the requirements for new criteria): Is there really such a pressure on MFD that we need such a criterion? The example RandomCanadian mentions for example is actually not an example of what this criterion would be for because Draft:Muhammad Umar Khan (MU Khan) is imho clearly the attempt of creating a userpage, just in the wrong namespace. The correct course of action would imho be to move the page to this user's userspace. Regards SoWhy 19:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: Move it to userspace and then re-apply U5 (because it's just an auto-biography with links to social media?) Or you think U5 doesn't apply here for reasons other than namespace? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- This guy has lots of edits to articles so U5 does not apply. Every editor has the right to a userpage with a bio and links to personal web pages. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: Move it to userspace and then re-apply U5 (because it's just an auto-biography with links to social media?) Or you think U5 doesn't apply here for reasons other than namespace? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:40, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- The question would be (in line with #3 of the requirements for new criteria): Is there really such a pressure on MFD that we need such a criterion? The example RandomCanadian mentions for example is actually not an example of what this criterion would be for because Draft:Muhammad Umar Khan (MU Khan) is imho clearly the attempt of creating a userpage, just in the wrong namespace. The correct course of action would imho be to move the page to this user's userspace. Regards SoWhy 19:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have four points to make here.
- All CSD criteria (other than the G criteria) apply only to one namespace or to one namespace and its associated talk namespace, so it would be against established practice to extend U5 (or any U criterion) to Draft: namespace.
- Please do not select a code for a proposed CSD criterion - we get lots of proposals, few of which succeed, and we assign codes when they are accepted and not before - otherwise we would (i) soon use up codes that will never get used for real and (ii) potentially have two or more discussions for proposed criteria that mention the same code as each other.
- I do not see any indication that all four WP:NEWCSD criteria can be met, particularly no. 3.
- It is deplorable practice to move a page from one namespace to another in order that a CSD criterion that did not apply in the first namespace can then be used in the second.
- So please think carefully before making unworkable suggestions on this page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- re Redrose64's fourth point, moving a page with the sole intention of making it eligible for speedy deletion is gaming the system and accordingly explicitly forbidden. Anyone doing that should expect serious consequences, and admin repeatedly doing so should not be surprised if they are desysopped. Thryduulf (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Correct of course but any page that clearly was meant to be in a different namespace can be treated as being in that namespace, whether it's moved there or not, with the relevant criteria applying. For example, if a user page is created in draft space, you can and should move it to user space where it belongs but if it would be deleteable in user space, it's imho okay to apply a U-criterion to it without moving it first. Gaming the system is and should be forbidden but at the same time, we shouldn't be blind to stuff sometimes being created in a wrong namespace by accident. Regards SoWhy 17:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- re Redrose64's fourth point, moving a page with the sole intention of making it eligible for speedy deletion is gaming the system and accordingly explicitly forbidden. Anyone doing that should expect serious consequences, and admin repeatedly doing so should not be surprised if they are desysopped. Thryduulf (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think WP:NEWCSD item 3 is met here, but otherwise don't find it objectionable. Stifle (talk) 09:49, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm really not sure how much this would actually cover that needs covered, although I am probably in the Wikipedia:Drafts are not checked for notability or sanity line of thinking. At least from what I've seen, U5 generally covers three general groups - 1) promotion in userspace, 2) vandalism/neonazi/conspiracy theory, and 3) occassional things such as fantasy sports leagues or alternate history games. 1) can be dealt with by G11 when it appears in draftspace, and 2) can be caught by G3. So really, this would only cover people running unrelated-to-wp personal stuff through draftspace like the fantasy sports or alternate history, and I'm not sure how much the draft space gets those, as those generally go through userspace from what I've seen. There's plenty of junk drafts where people write about their pets or minecraft servers, but those can be disposed of in six months when the G13 garbage collection truck makes its rounds. We don't need to be ragpicking, and with a lot of the webhost stuff classifiable elsewhere, I'm not sure how frequently an extension here would be needed. Hog Farm Talk 17:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- With respect to your point 3 items, "Upper Madeupistan is a country formed from Northern France after the Axis powers vanquished the Allied power in WW II..." would be subject to G3 as a blatant hoax in draft space. Ditto for fantasy games. -- Whpq (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not entirely sure this is necessary. Leaning Oppose on the grounds that almost anything blatant can be dealt with under other criteria, and the few that can't can go to MFD. Agree with Hut 8.5 that it looks like this would mainly lead to a lot of CSD abuse and WP:Ragpicking. Hog Farm Talk 22:56, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- With respect to your point 3 items, "Upper Madeupistan is a country formed from Northern France after the Axis powers vanquished the Allied power in WW II..." would be subject to G3 as a blatant hoax in draft space. Ditto for fantasy games. -- Whpq (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Expanding U5 to draft space has been proposed and rejected before (e.g. here and here). I strongly suspect that in practice it would be used to delete drafts which someone doesn't think are any good, rather than genuine cases of people not setting out to write an encyclopedia article. NOTWEBHOST violations are much more likely in user space than in draft space and U5 is widely abused in user space anyway. Hut 8.5 18:51, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I think G11 criteria is enough for draft namespace which advertises something, like we implement U5 criteria for userspace. I always use G11 criteria to tag draft which meet the deletion criteria. Dede2008 (talk) 16:38, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose. In addition to the complete lack of evidence this is frequent enough to meet point 3 of WP:NEWCSD (frequent), per Hut8.5 I have severe doubts that anything not redundant to G11 would meet point 2 of NEWCSD (uncontestable). Thryduulf (talk) 22:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Move NEWCSD to policy page
Can we move WP:NEWCSD to the WP:CSD page? It has a high degree of acceptance anyway. Alternatively, move it to the first section on this page and keep it stickied? I ask because that portion is cited and useful, but mobile users cannot see it (see [3] and [4]) because it's buried within a talk page box. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 09:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Would moving it to it's own page in the Wikipedia or template namespace and transcluding it from there resolve the issues? If so I think that's preferable to having it as a section on the WP:CSD page that we would need to keep in sync. I certainly support making it part of the policy. If it is moved then the last line of this page's edit notice will need updating. Thryduulf (talk) 14:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: If I understand you right, yeah. So moving the text itself out of here and into a normal Wikipedia page (and retargeting the shortcut to go to there), and then transcluding that section in the notice to keep a synced version visible to desktop users exactly as it currently appears. For mobile users they still wouldn't see the notice, but at least they would be able to click the WP:NEWCSD shortcut and then read the text. Right now I don't think it's possible for them to read it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Separately, should we change the information icon to something stronger? The edit notice on this page uses a warning triangle. Thryduulf (talk) 14:05, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think it has the kind of acceptance which justifies being made into policy, in particular lots of the existing CSD don't meet it. Hut 8.5 17:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't recall seeing any disagreement that proposed new criteria need to meet these requirements? What other acceptance is required? Whether existing criteria meet the requirements is a separate issue. Thryduulf (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- The box doesn't actually say that, it just says that CSD crtieria need to meet four points. Several of the existing criteria don't so it's clear that there's consensus that CSD crtiteria don't have to meet all four points. Hut 8.5 07:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't recall seeing any disagreement that proposed new criteria need to meet these requirements? What other acceptance is required? Whether existing criteria meet the requirements is a separate issue. Thryduulf (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- The talk page is the right place for this information, because this isn't of use to those following speedy delete policy, but to those wanting to change it, and we change it here on the talk page. That said, I'm gonna reformat the talk page to draw more attention to it. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
R3 and page moves
R3 currently states that it doesn't apply to redirects created from page moves unless the move was also recent, meaning either the article was recently created as a bad title or it was only recently moved there and shortly after moved back. With regards to the general rule that the author may not remove a speedy deletion tag I suggest that this shouldn't apply to redirects created as a result of a page move as with G7 (and G5 should probably also say) since the "author" of a redirect is the person who moved the article away from a bad name so it would seem rather odd that the person who corrected the mistake but doesn't think the mistake is bad enough for R3 should be prohibited from removing the tag. The same should be done for R2 and any other criteria involving redirects created from page moves. Now we should keep R2 and R3 for cases where someone created a redirect from a red link though. Like with G14 the vast majority of R2 and R3 redirects created from page moves will anyway likely be from experienced editors as opposed to those who create spam or autobiographies anyway so while I don't expect that this is much of a problem it can come up. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
What if XfD is already in progress?
What's the correct thing to do if an AfD, CfD, MfD, RfD or TfD (have I missed any?) is in progress for a given page, and then it is found to meet a CSD? This could be an instance where the author has requested deletion (G7) after the XfD was raised, or a finding that it met one of the CSD all along and should have been marked as one of these rather than going through XfD. — Smjg (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- You absolutely can tag an article for speedy deletion. AfDs get closed as speedy delete pretty regularly. Here are some examples: [5], [6], [7]. Reyk YO! 12:51, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- In such a situation, an article must be deleted only if it's a copyvio or an attack page. For other criteria, it's up to context. If there has been any comment that recommends keeping or at least casts doubt on the rationale for deletion, then speedy deleting will obviously not be appropriate. If there has been no participation, or if all the participants have recommended deletion (as in Reyk's examples above), then speedying will usually be appropriate. Though even then it's worth pausing to consider if there might not be other considerations at play: for example, has the nominator deliberately chosen an AfD over speedy tagging, for example because of a previous speedy getting declined? Also, there is a difference between the two outcomes in the case of recreation. A speedied article can usually be recreated, whereas a proper AfD that concludes the topic isn't notable can effectively put a stop to further recreations in the near future. – Uanfala (talk) 13:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
- If you tag a page for speedy deletion, and an XfD already exists, it's good practice to add a comment to the XfD discussion noting that you've tagged the page under discussion. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- Admins can speedily delete any article which meets the criteria, even if the page has been nominated for deletion somewhere else. Speedy deletion is supposed to be for obvious cases only, and if there is support for keeping the page at XfD then that might be evidence that it's not an obvious case, but ultimately it's up to the admin's judgement and there are definitely situations in which a page can be deleted even if there are Keep comments at XfD. Hut 8.5 17:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but only if the page in question is a copyright violation or an attack page, right? Otherwise that would seem to undermine the fundamental principle of CSD: that it's for non-controversial deletion. – Uanfala (talk) 22:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- An XfD must specify a reason for deletion - for instance, that the person described in the article is not notable; and that is what will mainly be discussed at the XfD, although other reasons may also be brought to the table to strengthen the case for deletion. If a CSD criterion unconnected with the XfD rationale is found to apply, the existence of an ongoing XfD doesn't of itself make that CSD controversial. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- It can apply for cases other than copyvios or attack pages. E.g. say a promotional article is sent to AfD, and the page creator (an SPA with a probable conflict of interest) posts a Keep comment, that wouldn't prevent an admin from deleting the page under G11. Hut 8.5 07:50, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- Oh yeah: that looks like an appropriate use case, at least in principle. But in practice though: something like G11 should be obvious, and if the nominator – who is apparently competent enough on Wikipedia – has decided to go the difficult route of an AfD then G11 probably wasn't that obvious or uncontroversial to begin with. – Uanfala (talk) 10:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- If the author of a G11 eligible page at AfD turns up to defend it, the discussion should continue. An important purpose of discussion is the learning by the participants. If the discussion is underway, let it play out. Editors matter. If the author is WP:NOTHERE, block them, but if you don’t block them, then their XfD !vote must be given due respect. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:30, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, but only if the page in question is a copyright violation or an attack page, right? Otherwise that would seem to undermine the fundamental principle of CSD: that it's for non-controversial deletion. – Uanfala (talk) 22:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- I have often tagged a page at MfD with U5, and/or G11. Importantly, there were no non-delete !votes, and none conceivable. If there were a a “keep” sentiment from anyone, then speedy deletion would be rude. Exceptions apply, including G10 and G12. G7 tagged should not be acted on, because it opens the door to a later re-creation that is immune to G4. A G7 appeal during an XfD should lead to a SNOW XfD close. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:25, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- In my opinion, an ongoing AfD with keep !votes other than the creator should never be speedy deleted for a notability-related criterion (e.g. A7). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- If there is an ongoing XfD then the page should never be speedily deleted unless keeping the page is actively harmful - copyvios and attack pages are almost always going to be the only cases where this applies (and even the latter can be overridden by good-faith arguments that the content is not actually an attack page, I've a few times at RfD where something that out of context appears to be an attack is actually not when context is known). Adverts, while obviously inappropriate and undesirable, are almost never actually harmful - especially when the page has appropriate content tags and a big XfD banner at the top. Thryduulf (talk) 12:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Nonsense. That's not true at all and you know it. It's actually terrible practice to suggest that CSD-eligible articles are not to be actioned if there is an XfD open. It's a perfectly normal situation where an article at XfD can be deleted via CSD. To so arrogantly decree that no article ever may be deleted via CSD, just because there is an XfD open, is ridiculous. CSD is for routine uncontentious technical deletions and the existence of an XfD does not inherently preclude our ability to do that. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- If there is active discussion about the merits of a page then deleting it is potentially controversial and so CSD cannot, by definition, apply. Thryduulf (talk) 12:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- The fact that there's an XfD in progress doesn't mean that the deletion is controversial. It might do, and the reviewing admin should certainly read the XfD and decide, but in an awful lot of cases the deletion isn't controversial at all and that is obvious to anyone who reads the XfD. Speedy deletion of pages at XfD is routinely done and telling people otherwise isn't doing them any favours. Hut 8.5 18:19, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf: CSD can apply if the chosen criterion concerns a matter that does not overlap with the issues that have been brought up at the XfD (I mentioned this at 07:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC), but not in the same words). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:16, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree. Swarm is right here. Reyk YO! 15:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- If there is active discussion about the merits of a page then deleting it is potentially controversial and so CSD cannot, by definition, apply. Thryduulf (talk) 12:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Nonsense. That's not true at all and you know it. It's actually terrible practice to suggest that CSD-eligible articles are not to be actioned if there is an XfD open. It's a perfectly normal situation where an article at XfD can be deleted via CSD. To so arrogantly decree that no article ever may be deleted via CSD, just because there is an XfD open, is ridiculous. CSD is for routine uncontentious technical deletions and the existence of an XfD does not inherently preclude our ability to do that. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- I am very wary of speedy deletions of pages at XfD, with the exception of G12 and G10. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gigachad is a cautionary tale – four calls for speedy deletion (one of them coming from a regular CSD administrator) where none of the criteria apply. Given the abuse of some criteria (A7 and G11 may be the most obvious culprits), a general feeling that this page "doesn't merit a week-long discussion" or "XfD is a waste of time" doesn't mean "must be speedily deleted". Sdrqaz (talk) 14:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for your input. So essentially, the right thing to do is go ahead and place the CSD tag, and while at it post a comment on the XfD to the effect. I suppose that:
- the XfD template should be left on the page while the XfD is in progress, regardless of the CSD
- as such, if someone removes the XfD template before the XfD has closed, as part of a blanking that would invoke G7 or otherwise, it should be restored
- if it gets deleted per the CSD, the deleting admin would close out the XfD while at it.
But I'm struggling to understand the implications for G7. I've sometimes thought that, even if the author has requested deletion, someone else might want to finish (or at least continue) what the author had started. So does this mean if the author tags a page with G7 when an XfD is in progress, it can remain but shouldn't be actioned for the time being? And if the author blanks a page with an ongoing XfD, and there's no support (from me or given by anyone else) for keeping it, should I tag it with G7 at this point? What if there is support for keeping it? — Smjg (talk) 15:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Pages which have been nominated at XfD can still be deleted under G7 as normal. This does happen from time to time when the creator of the page agrees with the XfD nomination. G7 is a courtesy rather than an absolute right, and G7ed pages are sometimes restored if someone else thinks they have value or wants to work on them, but that request is usually granted if made in good faith. If someone blanks the entire article (including the XfD template) then I would take that as a G7 deletion request as normal. Hut 8.5 16:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think it's fair game to delete a page under something like WP:G5, WP:G10, WP:G12, or things along those lines while a XfD is running. I guess WP:G7 too. But other than that, I'd just let the XfD run. The general rule is "Unless it's something with legal implications, rely on community consensus". You should also read the XfD. For example, if I think a page is G5-able in isolation, I'll delete it. But if there's already a discussion running where they're talking about whether G5 actually applies, I'll defer to the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoySmith (talk • contribs) 19:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say G3 hoax deletions during the XFD would be acceptable. There are times when you are pretty sure its a hoax but not quite bold enough to tag as such, and then after a couple days at AFD, it because clear from further research by others that the time is a hoax. Hog Farm Talk 01:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see what advantages that brings? If there aren't enough !votes for a SNOW delete it's unlikely to be obvious enough for speedy deletion. Just make sure the aritcle is tagged as a hoax and wait a few days. Thryduulf (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ummm ... the benefit is that once the content has been proven to be fabricated, that we're no longer foisting false content upon the public? I know at least on my mobile interface, the various cleanup tags don't always show up well. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stone Ridge, Maryland could probably have been G3'd after a few days; no need to keep made-up stuff up. Hog Farm Talk 18:31, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see what advantages that brings? If there aren't enough !votes for a SNOW delete it's unlikely to be obvious enough for speedy deletion. Just make sure the aritcle is tagged as a hoax and wait a few days. Thryduulf (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
TV channels and A7
Are TV channels/stations deletable under A7? I've encountered this problem for the second time in a week – the first time I removed the CSD tag and the second time I hesitated, as both nominators were former functionaries and well, should know the criteria far better than I do. The thing that's tripping me up is that whether to think of a channel/station as an organisation (with a director and other personnel) or merely as a medium through which you get the programming (as television channel tells us, it refers to the frequency). Open to being shouted at that for over-thinking this. Sdrqaz (talk) 02:04, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- A7, A9, A11 do not apply to any other subjects such as TV Channels, programs, and stations. You can delete it by list it at Proposed deletion or listing in Article for deletion discussions. 1Way4Together - J. Smile | Awards and similar items are not for sales 03:38, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's not as clear-cut as that imho. Stations could be eligible for A7 as companies (unlike their programs) although in many cases, if they are sending programs that are received in large areas, we probably need to assume significance or importance. Regards SoWhy 09:50, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say that TV channels/stations are companies and so are eligble for G7, however I would count being granted a license to broadcast as a clear assertion of significance. For the specific examples mentioned here, I would not have removed the tag from Nepal Channels but gauTV clearly made at least two assertions of significance (legal challenge to obtain license, and then obtaining a license) so it definitely would not be eligible for A7 regardless of subject matter. Thryduulf (talk) 11:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's not as clear-cut as that imho. Stations could be eligible for A7 as companies (unlike their programs) although in many cases, if they are sending programs that are received in large areas, we probably need to assume significance or importance. Regards SoWhy 09:50, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
T and X obsoleted entirely?
Is this really the case, that these entire groups of CSD are obsolete? Or is this a misconclusion based on them being empty of active criteria at the moment?
If the former, what will happen if, in the future, it is decided to enact a new CSD that is specific to templates, or a new temporary CSD for a large-scale cleanup operation? — Smjg (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- All the criteria which were formerly part of these sections have been removed, but the sections will be reinstated if a new criterion of that type is ever added. So any new template CSD would be T5 and any new temporary CSD would be X3. Hut 8.5 16:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Obsolete groups and criteria explains which criteria has become obsolete and why that it the case.--65.93.194.2 (talk) 21:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- @65.93.194.2: So what? I wasn't querying the obsoletion of the individual criteria or the reasons therefor. I was querying the obsoletion of the groups as groups. There's a big difference between an unoccupied house and a demolished house. My point was that the section you refer to seems to be confusing the two concepts.
- @Hut 8.5: So essentially, they're not demolished, but merely unoccupied. As such, while the sections on the page have been removed as they would be empty at the moment, the groups still exist as groups. As such, it would be better to describe them as "inactive groups" or "not currently in use". — Smjg (talk) 08:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I see no functional difference between the section being "demolished" or "unoccupied". If a new criterion is created, the "house" can be recreated with the click of a button. In this case, there is no difference between the group being obsolete or inactive. Sdrqaz (talk) 08:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- By "section" do you mean the physical section on the WP:CSD page, or the logical construct that is the group of criteria? I'm talking about the latter. If demolished, there's no possibility of a new criterion being added to it, so any re-creation would be a whole new group (and so the numbering would start again from 1). OTOH, if unoccupied, there's a possibility of it becoming occupied again, IWC the section on the page would be reinstated and the new criterion would continue the numbering sequence. — Smjg (talk) 10:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Numbering will continue from T5 and/or X3. Whether the sections are present but empty or not present makes no difference to this at all, and whether the section is recreated or reinstated will be completely indistinguishable so the distinction you are attempting to make is entirely philosophical. Thryduulf (talk) 11:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's a matter of factual accuracy. Obsolete is, by definition, a permanent status. So on this basis, the T and X groups aren't obsolete, so we shouldn't pretend they are. — Smjg (talk) 19:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I see your point, but I agree with Thryduulf that the sort of distinctions of factual accuracy that make no difference in real practice are probably not worth arguing about. I don't think you're likely to persuade people to use one term over the other, though you're absolutely free to use the correct one yourself. – Uanfala (talk) 20:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's a matter of factual accuracy. Obsolete is, by definition, a permanent status. So on this basis, the T and X groups aren't obsolete, so we shouldn't pretend they are. — Smjg (talk) 19:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Numbering will continue from T5 and/or X3. Whether the sections are present but empty or not present makes no difference to this at all, and whether the section is recreated or reinstated will be completely indistinguishable so the distinction you are attempting to make is entirely philosophical. Thryduulf (talk) 11:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- By "section" do you mean the physical section on the WP:CSD page, or the logical construct that is the group of criteria? I'm talking about the latter. If demolished, there's no possibility of a new criterion being added to it, so any re-creation would be a whole new group (and so the numbering would start again from 1). OTOH, if unoccupied, there's a possibility of it becoming occupied again, IWC the section on the page would be reinstated and the new criterion would continue the numbering sequence. — Smjg (talk) 10:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- I see no functional difference between the section being "demolished" or "unoccupied". If a new criterion is created, the "house" can be recreated with the click of a button. In this case, there is no difference between the group being obsolete or inactive. Sdrqaz (talk) 08:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)