Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy St. Patrick's Day! I hope your St. Patrick's Day is enjoyable and safe. Hopefully next year there will be more festive celebrations. Best wishes from Los Angeles. // Timothy :: talk |
Warning about disruptive editing
On July 18 you started what you characterized as a "procedural" AfD discussion. This was a not a procedural AfD; examples of a procedural AfD are when someone starts an AfD as requested by an IP or as a result of a DRV close. This AfD discussion has, unsurprisingly, been divisive and has produced thousands of bytes of text even if the consensus seems like it will be clear. A few hours before that you chose to move a draft that was part of an active MfD. This was done despite the MfD banner, which you choose to leave, explicitly noting that articles being discussed at MfD should not be moved. Taken together I find these decisions to be disruptive editing in a topic under discretionary sanctions. Specifically, rather than lowering the temperature in a contentious area you spread the conflict in new directions. Frequently I would end such a warning with a message like "I would ask you to think harder before taking such actions in the future" but from what I know about you I suspect that you actually did think plenty hard about it, so I will instead ask you to just not engage in this kind of editing in the future. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:53, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Barkeep. Thanks for your note. You’re right, I did think about them before doing them. While the actions were perhaps contentious, that’s not the same thing as disrupting the encyclopaedia, so I don’t quite agree with your characterisation. I’m afraid I can’t respond with diffs atm but here’s a brief response:
- Regarding the move, ~ 1 week before doing it I said on the MFD exactly what I was going to do and why. Nobody objected and a couple people thank’d that diff. Before doing the move itself, I justified my reasons with a thorough 5 point response right below that comment, again on the MFD. please refer to that comment for my reasons. I don’t think an interpretation of a MFD on a draft prohibiting it going into mainspace is valid. Say it is, are you saying that if you AfD an article and it takes 6 months for it to close, it gets to remain in mainspace for that period and editing work can continue, but if you draftify it first and then take it to MFD, even if the majority is in favour of keeping, that article would have to wait 6 months before being moved? Doesn’t seem like a valid interpretation to me. Again, full rationale at the MFD.
- As for the AFD. Last I checked it, and it’s been a few days since I have, discussion was calm and productive. Large volume and a highly attended discussion is of course not, in itself, disruptive. It was procedural because I didn’t want it deleted, and users were edit warring to prohibit any article existing there and simultaneously refusing to start an AFD, in contradiction with the DRV close. In the ‘merge’ discussion later created, the proposer effectively admitted they were proposing a deletion but didn’t want to go to AFD, which is plain forum shopping. An uninvolved admin agreed at the AFD that a consensus discussion there was appropriate. Surprisingly, despite many discussions at MFD etc, this is the first in the topic area to actually hit AFD. As per LOCALCONSENSUS, a consensus of a small number of participants does not overrule a broad community consensus, which is what that AFD provides. Any talk page discussion does not do that. AFD is a centralised venue. Had that AFD not been created, the article wouldn’t exist, even though there is a consensus for it to. Do you think that would be an appropriate outcome?
- In both cases clear and detailed rationales were provided, beforehand or promptly after. If, as you claim, these actions were disruptive, it would help me for you to explain why those rationales are invalid. ProcSock (talk) 12:38, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi there. I admittedly had not watch listed this page and so didn't see this reply until now; just wanted to explain the slow response. To answer your question, just because you appropriately communicated does not mean the actions were not disruptive. In both cases you decided that you were unhappy with a status quo, unhappy with the lack of what you saw as a timely resolution to a discussion, and took aggressive actions to force the issue. The is what caused me to issue the warning and that sort of disruptive behavior, no matter how considered and well communicated, is what I am suggesting, through this warning, not happen again. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: I get the feeling that you don't actually wish to discuss this, and not just due to the delayed response (which is my bad for the lack of ping; I usually don't ping on my talk), which is fine, so I won't waste much of your time or mine. Your comment is noted, with disagreement with your reasoning in both cases, especially the AfD one, and also with your premise that it's these actions that "spread the conflict in new directions". I'd also note that said AfD follows several other discussions where the same editors had openly decided they don't like consensus discussions, as in this case, and I'm disappointed to see a lack of condemnation against those who persistently and flagrantly violate the bedrock of collaboration; consensus. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- Saying
not just due to the delayed response (which is my bad for the lack of ping; I usually don't ping on my talk)
is a funny combination because it suggests I intentionally delayed my response (that is it's part of why you think I don't want to discuss it) and also suggests you didn't ping me (which is why I didn't respond). I am guessing that you're intending more the second part of it than the first. Still let's be clear: I am absolutely willing to discuss this, I just decided to focus in my response on the essential issue: why the actions were disruptive. The rest of your message suggests you understand my thinking, even if you don't agree with it, which fair enough. As forI'm disappointed to see a lack of condemnation against those who persistently and flagrantly violate the bedrock of collaboration; consensus.
this isn't an arbcom case where I am going to look at a case holistically or even AE, where I've seen you participate (but am not actively working because of my role of having to adjudicate appeals from there). I don't doubt that there is plenty of behavior that is worse than yours - behavior that would merit a logged warning, a topic ban, or even a block; this is part of why I voted to open a full case rather than just convert community GS into DS. But since I respect my colleagues who felt otherwise, I would suggest you can certainly file at AE if you feel that there are people who violating community consensus which is indeed a bedrock of Wikipedia. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2021 (UTC)- @Barkeep49: I'm a bit confused what you mean by the first paragraph, perhaps I worded it poorly, but I'm not trying to imply you intentionally delayed your response, and I honestly don't ping on any comments on my talk (see above/below or in my archives). When I wrote the original reply it was quickly written on a phone without much proofreading, hence even less likely I would've thought to ping you.
- I don't understand your thinking at all, to be honest. I meant it's noted to the extent that there's a warning (for something) from an uninvolved admin, and I'll keep that fact in mind. Usually I'd like to discuss further to clarify and take something useful from your comment, as I tried, but as I said I had a gut feeling that you didn't want to. I also figured this section was of the "strike 1" variety rather than the "here's some advice" variety. In part because, to the extent I know you, I'd expect a 'Barkeep warning' in this context to be somewhat helpful, i.e. an attempt at trying to understand what the editor was trying to do and suggesting a better/smarter approach of achieving that goal. Also because I think your original comment seems largely devoid of policy basis. For example, you talk about what the {{mfd}} template says, but don't mention that templates aren't policy, and that as the basis for the text it references a how-to page (aka an essay, and usually about technical instructions) which makes very clear that the moving of such pages is not prohibited and says the reason for the principle (
Moving the article while it is being discussed can produce confusion (both during the discussion and when closing using semi-automated closing scripts). If you do this, please note it on the deletion discussion page, preferably both at the top of the discussion (for new participants) and as a new comment at the bottom (for the benefit of the closing administrator).
-- which I did). I also think, even in the absence of that clarifying quote, it seems obvious the concept was never intended for the purpose of prohibiting the moving of AfC drafts to mainspace, so I don't know why one reasonably apply it to such. Especially while ignoring the substantive policy-based arguments I made to suggest it was acceptable, and the reasonable steps I took to discuss it first and minimise contentiousness (and only doing it after waiting, with no objections and several thanks). - Wikipedia:Disruptive editing says:
Disruptive editing is a pattern of editing that may extend over a long time on many articles, and disrupts progress toward improving an article or building the encyclopedia. ... Each case should be treated independently, taking into consideration whether the actions violate Wikipedia policies and guidelines.
(you cited none.) We might also turn to read WP:DISRUPTSIGNS as well. I'd be curious exactly which disruption sign these two actions were. Since both of those actions did exactly the opposite of everything on that list. Your claim is also not in line with the comments of multiple uninvolved admins who said the AfD had legitimate purpose.[1][2][3] As it turned out, the AfD at least let the article live long enough so that people came to appreciate it turned out "better than they'd expected". With the benefit of hindsight, it thus helped with the consensus building, perhaps decreasing scepticism/distrust, and also provided good opportunity to collect evidence of broad community opinion on the article. You imply that no level of "appropriate/well communication" would've made them less 'disruptive', which just seems... wrong. - Frankly I don't know what lesson you want me to learn from your warning. Stop trying to ascertain/build genuine broad consensus? Start edit warring instead and avoid consensus discussions, since that seems to be largely successful for those who do it? Yes, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but honestly, the actions are the best idea I had to get around what I think is, at times, the selective use (or blatant disregard) of policies to enforce preferred revisions. So far you haven't addressed anything I said substantively, or given me any reason to believe I was wrong and learn what I could've done better. If you have such suggestions, as you'll know, I'm always happy to hear them. Without better ideas I can only do the best I can. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding the draft article, the recommended action seems clear: wait for a Miscellany for deletion discussion to close rather than moving the draft article under discussion. I appreciate you disagree with this recommendation, for reasons you've already stated, so no need to repeat them in reply. (No comment on the first raised issue, as without looking at it again I don't recall what it was about.) isaacl (talk) 00:55, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- You're correct I didn't offer a whole lot of guidance in my original message. That reflects that I had spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out the best way to handle a hugely attended MfD that had been rendered procedurally moot and didn't like any of my options. And then I really grappled with the AfD and suddenly I had an issue for which I did have an answer. So fair point that I didn't offer much guidance and I will keep that in mind the next time I'm leaving a warning while a bit frustrated.Ultimately the answer in both these cases was for you to be patient and do nothing. You AfD nom wasn't actually an argument for deletion. That is it would have been eligible for being speedily kept until the first delete !vote came in. If you didn't have an issue with it existing let someone who thinks it should be deleted do the nomination or you could have created a merge discussion for which your nomination statement would have been appropriate. The MfD taking a while to close? So be it, it's a complicated discussion requiring a skilled closer and there aren't oodles of them around. I get that being patient is not always easy - I am myself rather biased towards action - but there is a good reason WP:BOLD notes the difference between article and mainspace with a SOFIXIT attitude. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:28, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: I still don't think you've reviewed the preceding events to the AfD, the edit warring in the page history, the talk page, or the AN where an admin had to request 1RR. Regardless, I appreciate you have a different personal opinion on how to handle the situation. The same guideline also says
This guideline concerns gross, obvious and repeated violations of fundamental policies, not subtle questions about which reasonable people may disagree.
(Even if I'm not a 'reasonable person', I presume the other admins whose diffs I linked are.) So can you kindly clarify your current position on your original accusations of disruptive editing, as per the relevant parts of the guideline quoted in my previous comment. Was it disruptive editing (as defined by Wikipedia policy) or not? And if so, per the policy, can you treat each case independently and tell me specifically which policy or guideline each case violated? Thank you. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:43, 2 August 2021 (UTC)- I would absolutely characterize what I've noted above as
disrupt[ing] Wikipedia, knowingly or unknowingly
(excerpt from the DE nutshell) anda pattern of editing that may extend over a long time on many articles, and disrupts progress toward improving an article or building the encyclopedia
(the FIRST sentence of DE). So it is in those two spirits that I labeled it disruptive editing. And yes I think you're a very reasonable person. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)- It seems an evasive response, Barkeep, and in my opinion disappointing involvement in the issue as a whole (as I think you're enabling the editors who wanted an article gone by force, who refused to create the AfD themselves, probably because they knew what the result would be) but it is what it is. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- You asked me to clarify my position around what politices or guidelines informed my warning. That is what I did. As I noted above I'm not trying to take some holistic view of what is going on in this topic or comparing your actions to those of others. The bottomline is that your forcing of these issues was itself disruptive and should not be repeated. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it appears you're doing a circular reference to DE, which is about a pattern of policy-violating behaviour, and openly refusing to actually cite any underlying policies or guidelines for your allegations. It's gobsmacking to see from an admin but, as I say, it is what it is. Your position and comments are noted. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- You asked me to clarify my position around what politices or guidelines informed my warning. That is what I did. As I noted above I'm not trying to take some holistic view of what is going on in this topic or comparing your actions to those of others. The bottomline is that your forcing of these issues was itself disruptive and should not be repeated. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- It seems an evasive response, Barkeep, and in my opinion disappointing involvement in the issue as a whole (as I think you're enabling the editors who wanted an article gone by force, who refused to create the AfD themselves, probably because they knew what the result would be) but it is what it is. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- I would absolutely characterize what I've noted above as
- @Barkeep49: I still don't think you've reviewed the preceding events to the AfD, the edit warring in the page history, the talk page, or the AN where an admin had to request 1RR. Regardless, I appreciate you have a different personal opinion on how to handle the situation. The same guideline also says
- Saying
- @Barkeep49: I get the feeling that you don't actually wish to discuss this, and not just due to the delayed response (which is my bad for the lack of ping; I usually don't ping on my talk), which is fine, so I won't waste much of your time or mine. Your comment is noted, with disagreement with your reasoning in both cases, especially the AfD one, and also with your premise that it's these actions that "spread the conflict in new directions". I'd also note that said AfD follows several other discussions where the same editors had openly decided they don't like consensus discussions, as in this case, and I'm disappointed to see a lack of condemnation against those who persistently and flagrantly violate the bedrock of collaboration; consensus. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi there. I admittedly had not watch listed this page and so didn't see this reply until now; just wanted to explain the slow response. To answer your question, just because you appropriately communicated does not mean the actions were not disruptive. In both cases you decided that you were unhappy with a status quo, unhappy with the lack of what you saw as a timely resolution to a discussion, and took aggressive actions to force the issue. The is what caused me to issue the warning and that sort of disruptive behavior, no matter how considered and well communicated, is what I am suggesting, through this warning, not happen again. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Documented consensus exemption
Are you still intending to hold this RfC, or have you abandoned the idea for the foreseeable? It's a sensible addition. Cambial foliage❧ 21:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- Never got around to it but I think an RfC should probably be held. I was waiting to hear back on Ritchie as I was genuinely curious why he thought it was a bad idea. I'm not convinced personally, after all what's the point of consensus discussions if it's not safe to revert to the consensus version? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement
Regarding these edits on arbitration enforcement: separating the creation of rulings from their enforcement is a feedback loop. It allows the community flexibility to manage how rulings are applied in practice, and provides an ultimate check to reject a ruling that is diametrically opposed to community sentiment. This is of course subject to the shortcomings of English Wikipedia's consensus-based decision-making traditions, like decisions varying depending on whoever happens to show up, as you alluded to and which I've discussed before. As long as the community base that supports decentralizing all decision-making remains dominant in discussions (as the views of the silent majority are unknown), I don't foresee any change, because they want that check in place. isaacl (talk) 13:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- It was mostly a philosophical question - I've posed the question a few times and never really got a good argument for why the system works as it does and I was curious what Kevin (or anyone else) thought - so appreciate your view.
- I'm not sure there is a separation between enforcement and ruling here, though. The remedy being enforced here is the idea that admins can take actions that usually only ArbCom (or consensus) can. The practicality of that makes sense, since ArbCom can't hear an American politics case every two weeks, but the community only delegated authority to ArbCom. ArbCom outsourcing that authority, and then refusing to consider the issues in full when appealed, just seems a bit backwards to me. AE admins are certainly scrupulous and good users, but my point is that nobody actually elected them to ban users by fiat. The only users elected with that responsibility are the 15 arbs, and even they can't take any unilateral actions in that capacity. Due to how ArbCom treats AE appeals, there's really no actual accountability mechanism for AE actions. ArbCom is literally far more accountable to the community than the people it delegates its power to, which doesn't seem right to me. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- Just to add, I don't actually think there is any community flexibility in AE, since AE isn't even community venue. It's managed by admins, and even they don't have to obey the prevailing consensus, among their peers or among the editors commenting. eg policy allows unilateral action for dismissing requests and prohibiting the issue being raised again, even if their colleagues disagree. Heck, if there's a consensus of admins opposing sanctions, policy technically allows a single admin to implement a sanction anyway. It's literally a system of 'beating someone to the punch'. In practice, there's probably both admin and community consensus right now that CutePeach be given extra time, but as per the two admins who said they will close the AE anyway, any admin can ignore that consensus. Overall I just find it mildly ironic that ArbCom gets criticised for acting by fiat, but by delegating its powers to an unelected, unaccountable, non-consensus venue that somehow is classed as a "community venue", it manages to evade that criticism. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:38, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- In short, the community (which in my mind includes admins, so I think we're using the term slightly differently), wants it that way. (Though I also mean a preponderance of those who like to discuss such matters in the corresponding venues. I think it's quite possible if the entire editing community could be polled, they'd prefer a hierarchy, like most other organizations they're used to.) There is a vocal core who dislikes any hierarchy, and is unwilling to delegate authority. Arbitration enforcement actions can be discussed and be made the basis of a clarification request (or a new arbitration case). I'm not saying this is the most effective or efficient approach, but it's what we have given Wikipedia's history. isaacl (talk) 00:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- I use "community" in the sense of our normal consensus processes; anyone can comment on an idea and their ideas contribute equally towards the result (or at least, any weighting is based on the soundness of the argument, and not the number of hats on their account). Of course admins (and arbs, too) are part of "community", but I think any discussion where a large chunk of editors is excluded from contributing towards the "consensus" is not a "community discussion". I don't think everything needs to be a community discussion either - fiat is good when necessary, but needs to be carefully designed IMO. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Having authority to devise sanctions delegated to admins, with a forum where the community can comment, and to raise the committee's attention is the current balance of delegation it supports. I don't think it's going to favour greater centralization of this authority, both for practical operational reasons as well its libertarian leanings. isaacl (talk) 14:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I believe I understand the practical reasons now. I'm not sure they're necessarily the case (eg it seems 2007 ArbCom was churning out cases like a machine, and I suspect 2007 ArbCom also had a far greater volume of issues), but I don't expect a change. As I say, mostly a philosophical argument, especially since there is no practical issue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- From a purely philosophical point of view, I think the community wants to separate enforcement for the original reason I stated, which also plays a role in how remedies are passed. There have been numerous times when admins have commented during cases that if the committee issues a given ruling, they won't enforce it. I believe this feedback helps shape decisions. isaacl (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, I believe I understand the practical reasons now. I'm not sure they're necessarily the case (eg it seems 2007 ArbCom was churning out cases like a machine, and I suspect 2007 ArbCom also had a far greater volume of issues), but I don't expect a change. As I say, mostly a philosophical argument, especially since there is no practical issue. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Having authority to devise sanctions delegated to admins, with a forum where the community can comment, and to raise the committee's attention is the current balance of delegation it supports. I don't think it's going to favour greater centralization of this authority, both for practical operational reasons as well its libertarian leanings. isaacl (talk) 14:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- I use "community" in the sense of our normal consensus processes; anyone can comment on an idea and their ideas contribute equally towards the result (or at least, any weighting is based on the soundness of the argument, and not the number of hats on their account). Of course admins (and arbs, too) are part of "community", but I think any discussion where a large chunk of editors is excluded from contributing towards the "consensus" is not a "community discussion". I don't think everything needs to be a community discussion either - fiat is good when necessary, but needs to be carefully designed IMO. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding dismissing an enforcement request, I proposed having circuit-breaker rules to trigger a consensus discussion on whether or not an enforcement action is needed. However the arbitration committee at the time didn't pursue the idea. isaacl (talk) 00:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- That's certainly an interesting idea. Perhaps the two arbs organising DS reforms would be interested in looking into it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hmmm... well Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/2021 review/Consultation § Dismissing an enforcement request garnered no comments, so it may not be on their radar to review. isaacl (talk) 14:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- That's certainly an interesting idea. Perhaps the two arbs organising DS reforms would be interested in looking into it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- In short, the community (which in my mind includes admins, so I think we're using the term slightly differently), wants it that way. (Though I also mean a preponderance of those who like to discuss such matters in the corresponding venues. I think it's quite possible if the entire editing community could be polled, they'd prefer a hierarchy, like most other organizations they're used to.) There is a vocal core who dislikes any hierarchy, and is unwilling to delegate authority. Arbitration enforcement actions can be discussed and be made the basis of a clarification request (or a new arbitration case). I'm not saying this is the most effective or efficient approach, but it's what we have given Wikipedia's history. isaacl (talk) 00:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Re. Andersen et al. in the lab leak article
I made a poor and ineffective edit summary the first time round; sorry for that (irked a bit by the somewhat awkward description of the use of another paper as "WP:Gaming"). Basically, I don't think that a paragraph which consists basically only of selected quotes from that article is particularly relevant or helpful on the target article. The paper's conclusions (which are reported in multiple secondary sources) can be cited, but I don't think they warrant a separate paragraph all by themselves. Like other scientific papers, it's better if it is used to provide the necessary scientific context and rebuttals (notably, for claims of laboratory manipulation in some way or anothers) when describing the lab leak under its various forms. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Best to discuss it on the talk. There is more content in the review (pgs 308-309) but I left that for someone more familiar with the material to fill out. I actually think we should be discussing these studies, especially if they're in secondary reviews (and as they're covered in such). We prominently and repeatedly say what the scientific consensus is, but talk very little about how & why the scientific consensus is that way. That basically just smells of "trust me! I have a degree!" -- which is antithetical to science. The evidence/rationale needs to be discussed, so readers can learn about and understand it. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- I think it might be more effective to do so in the "debunking wrong arguments" as I have so far done in the #Deliberate engineering section [see how the CGG codon claim is written about as an example]. I concede, this is a bit harder to do correctly for the theories which haven't been entirely ruled out, and it might be more effective to simply describe the scientific position without framing it in the context of rebutted claims, although that's best left to the regular "improve it until everyone's satisfied" process. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- The bioweapon theory is objectively misinformation at this point, and AFAIK nobody in the scientific community, or even reputable journalists, is seriously arguing for it. It's been considered and analysed with evidence. So that correctly fits under "debunking wrong arguments" and can be more precisely discussed. AFAIK the lab leak is more difficult to analyse (logically so; if one hasn't identified the spillover, theories like whether it rubbed off the shoe of a lab worker can't be proved or disproved - goes back to the 'easier to create theories than to rebut them' idea) and little precise (RS) discussion on it is possible. Still, per the primary source:
Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here. However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible. ... More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another. Obtaining related viral sequences from animal sources would be the most definitive way of revealing viral origins.
- Although it concluded
we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible
, according to the reviewIntroduction of a polybasic cleavage site specific to hACE2 requires repeated sub-culturing of this virus in cell culture or animals with hACE2. But neither such progenitor virus nor sub-culturing based polybasic cleavage to hACE2 has “previously been described”. Hence, Andersen and colleagues concluded that SARS-CoV-2 is not generated or released/escaped from laboratory. Thus, according to these authors, without prior knowledge in public domain, we may not precisely identify the origin of SARSCoV-2.
That reasoning should probably be mentioned in the article I'd say... And perhaps the preceding scientific details (pg 308) too. It's certainly more informative to the reader than just repeating how some ideas are "baseless"; I can't speak for every reader but personally when I'm learning about something I like to know how the conclusions were reached, rather than just taking them for granted. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC) - Re
the paper isn't notable enough for us to single it out like that
, personally I thinkThe most cited article for its critical observation on the origin of SARS-CoV-2 was published in Nature Medicine on March 17, 2020.
establishes DUEness. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:00, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- The bioweapon theory is objectively misinformation at this point, and AFAIK nobody in the scientific community, or even reputable journalists, is seriously arguing for it. It's been considered and analysed with evidence. So that correctly fits under "debunking wrong arguments" and can be more precisely discussed. AFAIK the lab leak is more difficult to analyse (logically so; if one hasn't identified the spillover, theories like whether it rubbed off the shoe of a lab worker can't be proved or disproved - goes back to the 'easier to create theories than to rebut them' idea) and little precise (RS) discussion on it is possible. Still, per the primary source:
- I think it might be more effective to do so in the "debunking wrong arguments" as I have so far done in the #Deliberate engineering section [see how the CGG codon claim is written about as an example]. I concede, this is a bit harder to do correctly for the theories which haven't been entirely ruled out, and it might be more effective to simply describe the scientific position without framing it in the context of rebutted claims, although that's best left to the regular "improve it until everyone's satisfied" process. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Another proposed remedy for WPWP for the poll
Greetings, PR, and thanks so much for your involvement in the WPWP difficulties on the EN WP. I'm writing as a member of the WPWP International Organizing Team (Participating Communities Liaison). I have another element to propose as a possible remedy for disruptive activity by inexperienced editors:
- "Limit participation on the English WP to only users with 1 year old account and at least 500 edits in mainspace on the English Wikipedia."
How can this be added? Is it a parenthetical type of "throttle" or its own case? I don't know the technical side of account and editing restrictions. Thank you for your advice! -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:36, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- We can do this with the filter, so formally it's just another example of option 2. Option 2 is pretty much any possible technical restriction short of disallowing it completely. My thinking is that if we achieve a consensus on one of those broad options it will focus discussion around the chosen remedy, rather than it being all over the place like it is now. If that chosen remedy is option 2 (which would be my preference) it would help us to focus on deciding and tweaking the specific restrictions and variables we want to try. It could be worth mentioning additional ideas of restrictions in the discussion, such as the one you mention.
- Personally, while I think your option would probably reduce the disruption, it would also set up a wall against new editors joining in. Due to the importance of editor recruitment, I think we need to be tolerant to some degree of errors, so long as people are trying to learn and improve. The difficulty seems to be in finding the right balance. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Banning question
Hello,
I have a burning banning question. Since you've taken part in my banning process, it is only fair that you explain where or to whom I can direct any queries about an appeal. Paradoxically, I am unable to do it under my user name. In fact, that is one of the more Kafkaesque aspects of the whole banning process within the confines of Wikipedia rules, that an appeal is "available" but it is effectively out of reach. I'll check back here if you feel inclined to answer this technical question. 2001:8A0:67CE:CB01:1AB:D528:DC99:AEFF (talk) 16:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know which banning process you're referring to, or who you are, so I'm not sure why you can't do it under your username. Usually you'd log into your account and post a request on your user talk page with the {{unblock}} template. If talk page access is revoked, you'd use WP:UTRS. In both cases your appeal would probably be copied to WP:AN for discussion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Guessing [4], and it's true the ban notice didn't explain how to appeal. EEng 18:16, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, that's illuminating. Must admit though, in the discussion I didn't get the impression that Dynasteria actually wanted to not be banned. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Guessing [4], and it's true the ban notice didn't explain how to appeal. EEng 18:16, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
requesting user permissions
Regarding your comment on the awkwardness of requesting user permissions: there are two user permissions that would be/would have been useful for me. At one time I was publishing a monthly newsletter for a WikiProject, and so sending out monthly requests for mass messages to be sent. At that time, the criteria was kind of hazy (it's still a bit open-ended), so I thought I'd just wait to see if anyone thought I could benefit from the mass messaging permission, but no one ever did. (It kind of irked me that around that time, someone with very little editing experience requested and received the right, and I think failed to exercise sufficient due diligence before fulfilling someone's request.)
The other permission that would be useful for me is template editor, as I created a module to implement a template that unexpectedly became used on more pages than I anticipated. The template was semi-protected, and, after the template editor permission was invented, became template-editor protected. The protection level of the module was not increased for some time, but some editor was auditing for such situations, and requested that the module be template-editor protected to match. When I noticed, I discussed the matter with the admin who protected the module, who agreed to lower both to semi-protection.
I could have requested the mass messaging privilege, and I could go looking for template-editor protected templates that need improvements and work at implementing them to demonstrate my knowledge in the area. But I didn't have the intention to fulfill other people's mass message requests back then, and I only want the template editor privilege to maintain the module I wrote before the concept of template editor was invented. So requests for these permissions could be considered hat collecting, as I don't really need them (making mass message requests isn't too onerous, and should the time come when the module in question is template-editor protected again, I can always make edit requests). So I have felt/would feel awkward asking for permissions that I can (and do) get by without. isaacl (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) It's certainly a bit of a pain point. I think you might be overthinking hat collecting though - no one really needs any permission, but if it's useful to your work around here, then there's not really a good reason to not have it. It's not like having a permission costs the WMF money or anything. I think my mentality on this is at least somewhat shared by most PERM admins, from the lurking I've done there. Elli (talk | contribs) 06:30, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- When I got template-editor I was doing a bunch of template editing but had maybe like two months of editing under my belt. The 'official guidelines' stipulate
The editor should be a registered Wikipedia user who has been editing for at least 1 year
, which I didn't meet. I think I also had two userrights given at the time (only one of which I asked for, but the other came in helpful every now and then), which might've given off a hat collecting vibe. I think I took a flick through the archives at the time to see if there was any precedent for a successful grant with lesser tenure. I only remember reading two relevant ones (this one was okay. Then there was this which was just a pure horror story). Mostly I think I just got lucky with the responding admin at PERM, who quickly granted and thus took the request off the board. Really I just didn't want to ask for it as I expected it to be unpleasant, and perhaps if a couple admins didn't persuade me to (on IRC) I wouldn't have. (As a sidenote, and in connection to the offwiki servers VPP, I think things like that are one advantage of the offwiki venues.) I think I turned out reasonably fine (if nothing else, the encyclopaedia still seems to be in one piece without red error messages everywhere), which perhaps calls into question whether that requirement is useful. I probably would've preferred some admin just give it out if they felt I was competent enough. - Your comment about perms only to be occasionally used is interesting. For me that's page mover (it comes in handy, but I wouldn't have requested it myself). SMcCandlish actually kindly surprise-nominated me for it here. (I only really use it for TfDs/template related things, and sometimes if I want to do relevant RMs, but I think it still saves admin time, + making move requests feel like a chore.) I think that kind of system (informally putting peers forward) is a good gesture IMO, and feels more community-y (for lack of word). It would be nice to see it be more commonplace. I suppose there's nothing stopping us from doing it already, but it feels so non-standard that I don't think the idea occurs to us often.
- I feel like I largely object to the "hat collecting" idea in principle (even if one is just doing it for the hats, if you're actually using them then... aren't you just improving the project? and even if you only use them infrequently, what's the issue?), but I haven't thought about it enough, especially in comparison to other communities. For example: some forums, game communities, etc., tend to have volunteer groups/ranks and (for some) the desire to work towards them can be a motivating factor which seems to produce output. In other contexts, like GitHub projects, I don't think Committer access is often really something to 'strive' for. On Wikipedia, I'm sure there are probably people that do things to help them gain a hat, and that perhaps helps output. Conversely, how many contributions have been lost because someone didn't want to go through our perms processes?
- Certainly, I think that Growth team project is a good opportunity to experiment with a different permissions system. Especially since that seems like the kind of area where you want a lot of casual volunteers and peer-based work. If there are other editors who feel (like you or I) that they might not make permissions requests for occasional use then it would be rather damaging for the success of the mentoring project. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:01, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'm a bit old school regarding privileges: I don't mind the idea that they should be requested when their absence is a significant hinderance to the editor in question. From the other perspective, I understand why in an environment where we're all anonymous, grantors look for some indications of relevant abilities and trustworthiness. That can be through meeting certain criteria, or through recommendations from other trusted users (as in your case for page mover).
- I think Editor of the Week is the biggest initiative I've worked on to encourage new editors. I feel trying to connect editors with active subcommunities, even if only as observers, would help encourage them to stick around. It's a bit of a catch-22, though: many of English Wikipedia's subcommunities need reinvigorating. In spite of the time zone clustering effect, it's where real-time communication channels may be helpful. isaacl (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about the 'demonstrated need' school of thought. An example is WP:EFM. It is pretty much impossible for a non-EFM to show demonstrated need (except by saying "I want to create filters"). With page mover you can judge discussions and make move requests, and with template editor you can make TPERs (some types anyway; complex ones will be difficult to review). With EFM almost all the tools to help create filters are closed off to non-EFM. WP:EFH has access to a couple, so arguably that right would be a 'stepping stone' in demonstrated need? Well, EFN consensuses have established that EFH requests for that purpose should be denied, hence a catch-22.
- It mostly becomes a trustworthiness thing, vastly improved by having an EFM (or an admin, I suppose) vouch for you. That's not really a problem, since trust doesn't come from thin air and it is an anonymous community, but I'd prefer if were just honest and said "get to know people" rather than just "have a demonstrated need". (generally, you don't even need a need at all if you have the former) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- My viewpoint is a slight step down from demonstrated need. (I'm also expressing a personal view, not one that I think should necessarily be adopted for all cases.) I think when a user is doing various tasks, demonstrating their skills, and has to continually get assistance from others with additional rights, they will be able to judge that the user would benefit from having additional privileges. You could do this with edit filters, by being involved in the process and developing the appropriate regular expressions, though I suspect that in practice it's granted on more of a vouch system. isaacl (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think one can only develop basic expressions in filters without the relevant perms, the kind that any EFM could write themselves. To narrow them down to something more useful you need to be able to match against prior hits, which non-EFM can't do. I did author a filter once as a non-EFM after 3 months of a filter request lingering on the board; it took another two months to move it to warn. (Although that was mostly in a lot of delays between each request and waiting for results, rather than one long delay.) It's borderline make-work to author simple filters even if it did demonstrate need, and impractical to author complex ones and/or those probably just won't get reviewed. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- My viewpoint is a slight step down from demonstrated need. (I'm also expressing a personal view, not one that I think should necessarily be adopted for all cases.) I think when a user is doing various tasks, demonstrating their skills, and has to continually get assistance from others with additional rights, they will be able to judge that the user would benefit from having additional privileges. You could do this with edit filters, by being involved in the process and developing the appropriate regular expressions, though I suspect that in practice it's granted on more of a vouch system. isaacl (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Elli, and with Isaacl's followup comment on "a step down from demonstrated need". If it would be useful and you have clue, then request the permission. Don't ask for it if you wouldn't use it. Further, consider having it removed if you never use it. E.g., I could get AccountCreator at any time (and did have it at one time) but don't have any intent to work on that for the foreseeable future, so I don't have that bit (now). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- Couple of days late on this one, but some thoughts. I think "tenure" at PERM penalizes editors who recently signed up while overlooking those of us who made our accounts some time before we became active editors. I suspect Proc's early granting would be because he's technically a 2018 account, and my three-months granting of PMR was definitely because I'm technically a 2016 account, because I have that page watchlisted and routinely see tenure declines for literally a few days short of 180. On the specific matter of MMS "need for the tools", this is based entirely on how often you send mass messages, and coming in with the intent of fulfilling other people's requests is if anything somewhat discouraged. The actual WT:MMS work of fulfilling requests by people without the right is more or less all by one guy, which does open us up to a fair bit of bus factor, especially considering how niche the right is. (On the other hand, it's sparsely requested and the "backlog" is minutes or hours.) Vaticidalprophet 12:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
The attack
Not only do I disagree with your reading of consensus at Talk:2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol#Requested_move_20_May_2021 as we established in our commenting at the move review at Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2021_June#2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol, your involvement at the MR should have inhibited you from closing the RM once it was reopened per WP:INVOLVED. Granted there be no specific rule that says someone involved in a MR discussion should be considered as "involved" in the RM being reviewed, but there should be. In any case it's moot for this particular case now as I've started a new RM proposing a move explicitly to the title I believe was already shown to be consensus-supported in the RM you closed as "no consensus". Sigh. It's a shame anyone ever challenged the original RM which was originally closed so astutely by Onetwothreeip. Oh well, looks like it's going to be rectified, finally. --В²C ☎ 19:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- FYI, you might want to weigh in here: Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Does_being_involved_in_a_Move_Review_discussion_of_a_given_RM_constitute_being_WP:INVOLVED_in_the_reviewed_RM_once_it_is_reopened?. --В²C ☎ 20:03, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hey. On the assessment of consensus, your position may well be correct, as your experience in requested moves and article titles is far greater than mine. But I don't think I personally agree with cutting corners like that, at least not on an article with 13 RMs in 6 months and when the discussion had structural issues. If I get a chance to go find them again I recall a few old, interesting closes that I'd say are relatable by analogy (on a slightly smaller scale) that you might find of interest. As I mentioned in the close it may well be that the proposed title has consensus, but I think the RM you started is the way to go to determine that clearly (for the reasons in my original close).
- Re involvement, it's an interesting question. I'm not personally aware of it being a problem, since I don't think it exercises an opinion on content merits, and in the past I've had a couple occasions where I opined on a closes' correctness and was asked if I wanted to reclose it. I did disclose in the RM close regardless, for transparency. As for the discussion, thanks for starting it, I will see where it goes. Whatever the consensus on the issue, I feel like the same should apply to RfCs (reviewed at AN) and XfDs (reviewed at DRV) too. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- By the way, В²C, while I have you here what's your position on closes like Talk:Spanish_flu#Requested_move_21_July_2021? Specifically, do you weigh votes that cite a WP:SHORTCUT but provide no evidence for the claim? That was a discussion where a lot of oppose votes came in before any evidence did, and only two opposes clearly referred to evidence for the COMMONNAME assertion. It's more obvious when discrediting votes that make either no assertion, or a logically unreasonable one, (eg this RM), but seems harder when the rationale is plausible, maybe even true, but largely unsubstantiated in the discussion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with your call there. The main thing I’d add is the onus is on the nom and Supporters to show that the proposed name is now the COMMONNAME. That the current name was the COMMONNAME and still is is the default assumption, so opposers don’t have to prove that. Another issue is that official names and academic noted by nom/Support carry less weight in determining COMMONNAME. What’s the usage in well known reliable news sources? That’s what matters most in telling us what readers are most likely to search and expect to find the topic at. Thanks for keeping our disagreement about the other thing on the high road. Much appreciated. Always good to agree to disagree, respectfully. If you’re interested in how I came to value nuance in RM decision-making check out my Yogurt Principle essay: User:Born2cycle/Yogurt principle. —В²C ☎ 01:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-31
20:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Christchurch
You are currently doing what I wanted to, but with more guts and skill. If you can think of a way to make the list of events by date in 'Related arrests and incidents' and 'Arrests and prosecutions' more informative and cohesive, well then I can move onto more rewarding pages. Dushan Jugum (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, you're too kind. Yeah, those sections also have a bit of a timeline issue. A new formulation wasn't immediately obvious to me so I figured I'd leave it for later. The person with a real knack for this kind of stuff is EEng; if we can onboard him the job is already half-done. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:22, 5 August 2021 (UTC) note: this is re Christchurch mosque shootings
- @EEng: I'm also thinking some restructuring may be required, but not entirely sure. The article has a very loose structure (eg the aftermath and legacy sections are a bit intertwined). I figured the "preparation for the attack" sub-section should probably come before the section on the attack itself, but separating it out individually is a bit weird since the attacker wouldn't be introduced. Moving the whole "Perpetuator" section up might be a bit heavy, but could be a possible solution too. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- While strict chronological order is seldom the best, the way it is now, jumping right in without almost no background, is jarring. But before any tinkering with sequence, the article really needs a machete taken to it. There's way too much tiny detail; my reputation precedes me, I am sure. EEng 15:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- @EEng: Are you done with the machete or taking a break? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
- While strict chronological order is seldom the best, the way it is now, jumping right in without almost no background, is jarring. But before any tinkering with sequence, the article really needs a machete taken to it. There's way too much tiny detail; my reputation precedes me, I am sure. EEng 15:22, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- @EEng: I'm also thinking some restructuring may be required, but not entirely sure. The article has a very loose structure (eg the aftermath and legacy sections are a bit intertwined). I figured the "preparation for the attack" sub-section should probably come before the section on the attack itself, but separating it out individually is a bit weird since the attacker wouldn't be introduced. Moving the whole "Perpetuator" section up might be a bit heavy, but could be a possible solution too. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
EFM Mailing List
Hey Proc, I'm not sure whether I was supposed to receive a confirmation that an email I sent to the list had been accepted by a listmod, but if so I haven't got it yet. Any ideas? --Jack Frost (talk) 14:20, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hey, we got the mail. Incoming emails for the list aren't subject to moderation so that could be why there was no confirmation. In regards to the substance of the email, I passed it on to an admin more involved in the topic area for thoughts earlier today. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the update. That's odd, I got an autoreply saying it was being held until list mod review. Cheers, --Jack Frost (talk) 14:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm, I may well be wrong on that then. I think MusikAnimal is a list admin so he may know more. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:11, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes all incoming emails by non-members are subject to moderation. If it weren't for that you'd be seeing a lot of spam ;) — MusikAnimal talk 16:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ahah, thankyou both for indulging my confusion. Cheers, --Jack Frost (talk) 00:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes all incoming emails by non-members are subject to moderation. If it weren't for that you'd be seeing a lot of spam ;) — MusikAnimal talk 16:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm, I may well be wrong on that then. I think MusikAnimal is a list admin so he may know more. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:11, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the update. That's odd, I got an autoreply saying it was being held until list mod review. Cheers, --Jack Frost (talk) 14:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Not entirely randomly chosen editor to close an RFC
I notice that you have closed other RFCs, so I may I press you into service? Would you close Category talk:Criticism of political correctness#RFC: Should this category contain individual people?, please? In theory at least, it should be uncontentious since there are no dissenting voices; the presence in the category of individual critics looks intended to bypass deletion of category:Critics of political correctness. The RFC shouldn't even be needed – if I put Whale shark in category:Marine mammals, I would expect immediate deletion – but this is a sensitive topic and it is useful to have a clear ruling that may be cited in edit notes. If you are happy to do the close, thank you. If not, I'll have to spin the wheel again. :-D --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Sure, seems easy enough. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:41, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-32
16:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Dead diff
You may already know this but one of the diffs ([11]) in your comment at WP:ARC isn't working because the revisions have been deleted. I thought you might want to augment it (e.g. with Special:PermaLink/1037977774#What to do about BHG?) so non-admins can see it. Nardog (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks! Replaced with that link and the editor/timestamp of the comment I was referring to. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
RE your comments about me having a "financial stake in promoting a topic"
If you do some research, you will discover that 'Tell It Like A Woman' was produced by We Do It Together which is a non-profit film production company. Please ALWAYS do research before taking content down. Also, you took down previously added content from another user - please put it back.
Please REWRITE the content if you are not satisfied with it instead of jumping to conclusions. Here are the two projects that need to be added to Chiara's bio (plus the other content that was already there that you took down):
2019 -2021 'Tell It Like A Woman' film (nonprofit work with We Do It Together) March 4th, 2021 'One OF Us' (nonprofit work with We Do It Together in collaboration with the Consulate General of Italy, Frequency Production, Violetta Group, and the Italian Cultural Institute of Los Angeles )
NONE of these films were made for profit.
I believe in the vision of We Do It Together - we NEED more women in front & behind the camera. Please check out the company for yourself and write the article as you see fit. Here is their website: https://www.wedoittogether.org/
If I were getting "paid" to do this - I would have known how to avoid being flagged don't you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EliRUSA (talk • contribs)
- @EliRUSA: The template is a standardised message; the imperative phrase in it being "gives the impression". Non-profit entities often still pay people; The Wikimedia Foundation is non-profit and pays plenty of people for example. As for the removed content, you're getting me mixed up with someone else. I didn't remove anything; see the page history. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:47, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
@ProcrastinatingReader - can you please just write the article instead of going back and forth? You clearly know what is allowed in it so please write it as I don't understand how it could possibly be misinterpreted or give any impressions. I wrote a basic update to her bio. A Non-Profit isn't owned by anyone - Chiara founded We Do It Together but doesn't own it. Any impressions were created by your viewpoint @ProcrastinatingReader and unfortunately, I can't control the way you interpret things. I don't have an alternate motive - I just want more people aware of projects done by women, about women. The industry is changing and people need to know. Please rewrite my content so it doesn't give anyone any impressions of murky motives. I sincerely appreciate it.
- It's not really my topic area of interest I'm afraid, which is also why I didn't edit the article (except to add a notability tag). From a quick Google earlier I couldn't find much coverage in reliable sources. A lot of the content people removed was on the basis of it being unsourced, so if you can find a reliable source to verify it, you should be able to readd. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Query
Hey. What was EEng actually doing on June 4 if Swarm is the one who moved the page on April 20? Do you understand what's going on there? Thanks! El_C 01:29, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Swarm's move seems to be April 2021. (EEng's June 2020). Per this log entry I'm guessing EEng was reversing TheKenTop's move 3 minutes prior to EEng's, which was to the title The Death of George Floyd (history). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 01:34, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks. What method did you use to locate the "Per this log entry" link? El_C 02:47, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- @El C: That was just the move log of the "Killing of George Floyd" page, which EEng apparently deleted. It's usually a good place to look. The definitive place to look is the same user's move log; there will be a complimentary move entry at the same timestamp as the 'deletion'. (here). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks. What method did you use to locate the "Per this log entry" link? El_C 02:47, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-33
19:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
New MEDRS for SARS-CoV-2 origin
Can you please add this excellent review to the list of scholarly sources you made in : Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#Scholarship? https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2021.08.017 The Origins of SARS-CoV-2: A Critical Review, Cell Journal. Thanks in advance, Forich (talk) 15:55, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Forich: Sure, added. I'm happy for anyone to directly add to that list btw (& most of the entries were added by others). That seems like an excellent review at a skim, and I eagerly await its final publication so it can be used in the article. It also verifies several statements we added as obvious but didn't really have solid sourcing for. (Courtesy ping Shibbolethink; might be interested if not already aware.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- ooooh yeah this is desperately needed. I did know something like this was coming but I didn't know it would end up in Cell. I know a few names on there, they're good people who have been trying to contribute to the narrative and offer a scientific perspective. This doesn't solve any questions, really, but it does help us accurately describe one of the most prominent scientific viewpoints. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:23, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's especially helpful in describing the Lineage A vs B phenomenon in genetic sequences of the early outbreak, for which we were previously using News sources and twitter threads (lol). Definitely this MEDRS is preferable. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
- ooooh yeah this is desperately needed. I did know something like this was coming but I didn't know it would end up in Cell. I know a few names on there, they're good people who have been trying to contribute to the narrative and offer a scientific perspective. This doesn't solve any questions, really, but it does help us accurately describe one of the most prominent scientific viewpoints. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 16:23, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
YGM
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Thank you multiple times!
Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/ProcBot 9
Hi ProcrastinatingReader! I saw your comments on Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/ProcBot 9. Excluding namespaces is definitely something that can be done, but where did you see anything about editing the user talk page not counting as activity for the purposes of WP:RESTRICT? Once that's sorted and there is something that I can point to, I can push the change. --TheSandDoctor Talk 23:09, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- @TheSandDoctor: it's at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions/Archive:
Activity solely on the users' own talk page does not constitute a return to activity so long as they have been blocked or otherwise inactive for two years or more, however restrictions should not be archived while there is an open unblock request on the user's talk page.
ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:36, 22 August 2021 (UTC)- Thank you! Change implemented. --TheSandDoctor Talk 23:53, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-34
21:57, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
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