Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy St. Patrick's Day! I hope your St. Patrick's Day is enjoyable and safe. Hopefully next year there will be more festive celebrations. Best wishes from Los Angeles. // Timothy :: talk |
Merchandise giveaway nomination
A token of thanks
Hi ProcrastinatingReader! I've nominated you to receive a gift from the Wikimedia Foundation. Enjoy! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:55, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
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- Aw, thanks! ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-17
21:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
RfC closure
Hi. I would like to ask your what is the rationale behind this closure summary ― Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_335#RfC:_Kommersant? I would appreciate if you describe it in as much detail as possible. Thanks in advance.--Renat 22:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- It's not a particularly long discussion. What outcome were you expecting? Just as a poll 7 editors voted for option 1, and 6 for option 2. None for stronger outcomes. But to establish the difference between 1 and 2 (ie, the "additional considerations [that] apply") we need to look at the rationales. Several editors (Mikehawk10, Nyx86, CuriousGolden, Solavirum, feminist, Axonov) expressed concerns in relation to certain events (specifically those in which Russia has a special political interest), mostly inherently due to being a Russian paper. No editors explicitly made statements to the contrary, arguing that it had no bias in such matters. Outside that context and in a more general sense, several editors clearly expressed their view that this is one of the better newspapers in Russia and no evidence was provided to rebut such opinions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. Answering your question: I had no expectations about the outcome.
You say that 7 editors voted for option 1 and 6 for option 2. Could you please name them? Both sides.
You say: "It's not a particularly long discussion". Have you thought about restarting the RfC instead of closing it?
If I understand you correctly, the main rationale for the outcome was the fact that "several editors clearly expressed their view that this is one of the better newspapers in Russia and no evidence was provided to rebut such opinions"?--Renat 23:41, 27 April 2021 (UTC)- By "it's not particularly long" I mean that it fits on one side of A4 and (surprisingly, compared to the average RfC) isn't particularly verbose, lengthy or complicated. In the same sense, it's easy to pick out the usernames in the signatures next to each boldworded vote and so I'm confused why I'm needed to do that. Do you suspect the RfC was misclosed and believe there's a different interpretation more valid (if so, which)? It's hard to address your concerns without knowing what they are. Same problem of lack of context applies to the last question. The quotation you gave isn't the 'main' rationale for the outcome because it doesn't explain half of the close (wrt issues involving the Russian government), which was explained in my first reply. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- The main point of the closure summary is that the source is listed as generally reliable now. And this fact is much more than half of the entire content of the summary in terms of meaning. And obviously I expect some meaningful rationale behind that. Answering your question: at this stage of our discussion I still believe that "the RfC was misclosed and there is a different interpretation". But I might be wrong, right? So that's why I am asking you these questions to understand your though process.
About the number of voters:
Who voted: Mikehawk10, Alaexis, My very best wishes, Sea Ane, Emir of Wikipedia, Nyx86, CuriousGolden, SolaViram, Գարիկ Ավագյան, Renat, feminist, AXONOV, Steverci, Grandmaster. Total: 14.
Those, who clearly voted for option 1: Mikehawk10, Alaexis, Sea Ane, Գարիկ Ավագյան, Steverci. Total: 5.
Those, who clearly voted for option 2: Nyx86, CuriousGolden, SolaViram, Renat, AXONOV, Grandmaster. Total: 6.
And you say that 7 editors voted for option 1, not 5. How is that?--Renat 02:33, 28 April 2021 (UTC)- I went by first preference, so for those who said option 1/2 I added them to option 1. I don't think the difference between option 1 and 2, solely as a label, is relevant for practical purposes. Many people prefix their comment with option 1 and add some caveats in their comment (ie they're basically saying "additional considerations apply"), and others prefix with option 2 but their additional caveats are only in a particular area. It helps to get a feel for where editors lie, but it doesn't remove the need to read the comment to see what the additional considerations are. In this case, that additional consideration was the fact that it's a Russian newspaper. It was accordingly accounted for in the close and in the WP:RSP listing.
- As for the generally reliable concern, that's the default state of a news source anyway, per WP:NEWSORG. It takes a consensus in a discussion showcasing concerns and evidence to move away from that default state. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 03:15, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- "those who said option 1/2 I added them to option 1".
My vest best wishes said: "Option 1 or 2, before May 2019, but option 3 after". How is this can even come close to being interpreted as "option 1"? (That's my main question for now)
"As for the generally reliable concern, that's the default state of a news source anyway, per WP:NEWSORG"
Just because the entity is a news organisation doesn't tell us anything when we have good reason to doubt. Of course, when we have two entities and everything what we know about them is that the first one is a news organisation and the second one is a marketing organisation, highly likely that the first one is more reliable then the second one. But, if we have two entities and everything what we know about them is that they are both news organisations and one is in Turkmenistan and the other one is in Norway, highly likely that the organisation from Norway is more reliable than the organisation from Turkmenistan. Russia is not as bad as Turkmenistan, of course, but the point should be clear.
"It takes a consensus in a discussion showcasing concerns and evidence to move away from that default state."
First of all, it takes correct interpretation of the RfC results.--Renat 04:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)- Okay. Let's reword "None for stronger outcomes." to "One editor for option 3, post-May 2019". But that doesn't change the RfC outcome. Generally reliable doesn't mean absolutely reliable. I don't think the option I perceive you seek, some kind of "generally reliable but 2nd tier compared to top RS such as the BBC or The Times", whilst true, is actually any kind of WP:RSP value. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- It makes no sense.
My very best wishes voted for "Option 1 or 2, before May 2019, but option 3 after", which is obviously closer to option 2 than option 1.
You, for a reason unknown to me, came to the conclusion that My very best wishes voted for option 1.
I pointed out this problem.
And now you are telling me that he is in completely different category now.
Don't you see how inconsistent your rationale is? How many editors for option 1 now? Still 7? And if you think the other votes are okay, then no. The closure summary wasn't based on policies or consensus. The summary is the result of counting random numbers without any argument strength evaluation, nothing. I politely asked you to provide detailed rationale behind your closure summary and you couldn't even correctly count the number of voters. I just can't believe how irresponsible this approach is.
And what about the other editor who voted for option 1/2? Why did you think Feminist voted for option 1 and not for option 2?--Renat 15:10, 28 April 2021 (UTC)- When I gave you a count above, it was because I didn't know from what angle you were disputing the close (ie, if you were trying to argue the close should've been generally unreliable, the fact that no editors voted for that option in all cases, and only one did for a particular context, would be clear evidence against that premise). You've since made (slightly) more clear your angle of dispute, so it's (slightly) easier to tailor responses in that respect. But it's very difficult to answer a rationale for "why wasn't it closed as generally unreliable" without knowing that's your question, for example. You're asking for an answer to a question that isn't clearly formulated, which just leaves me guessing as to exactly what you want here.
- I think I follow your concerns slightly better now, so let me break down my thinking a bit on option 1 vs option 2 and perhaps that might help. I don't see a strong distinction between option 1 and option 2 inherently by the labels. Option 2 is poorly labelled anyway. It doesn't make sense to vote for "no consensus", because an editor in the discussion can't possibly know if the outcome will be "no consensus" (unless they're psychic), as whether consensus exists (or not) isn't decided until the comments come in and a closer closes it. I consider both labels equivalent, and read them as "reliable in some or all contexts" and then I look to the comment to see which of the two it is. (In theory the label could also be used for "generally spotty reliability", but my experience of RSN is that editors vote option 3 in such cases.) If editors are torn on whether it's reliable, with both sides making reasonable policy and evidence-based arguments that aren't logically inconsistent, I consider that "no consensus". That wasn't the case here, because on the whole editors were happy with its general reliability outside the additional considerations.
- WP:RSP does not directly correlate its entries with RSN's standard "option 1" or "option 2" format, or use these terms, and many closers (myself included) do not close RSN discussions with "option N" outcomes either. RSP does have labels of "generally reliable" and "no consensus/additional considerations apply", but there was not no consensus in that discussion. In this case an additional consideration does technically apply, but that doesn't necessarily mean the row will be coloured in yellow. For example, see HuffPost (RSP entry), CNET (RSP entry), The Daily Dot (RSP entry), The Diplomat (RSP entry), for other examples where the 'generally reliable' status is subject to additional constraints but the row is still green. Yellow is usually used when the discussion is either no consensus, or when there's consensus of general inconsistency (eg Bustle (RSP entry)). I suppose to some extent whether it's categorised as green or yellow, vs whether the consideration is just mentioned in the summary box, depends on how the relative quantity of additional consideration material to total output by the source. But that's just my guess, and one would have to defer to the RSP volunteers for an answer.
- In any case, an RSN discussion does not prescribe a WP:RSP listing. WP:RSP is maintained by editors as a compilation of community consensus, and is not in itself consensus. If your concern is with how WP:RSP is interpreting a consensus discussion, including the colours it uses, then it would be better to raise that at WT:RSP. If your concern is with my RSN close, then I appreciate that you've politely asked me to expand on my rationale, and I've tried, but I admit I've been mostly a bit confused on what you're asking of me so apologies if the responses seem brusque. I think I follow a bit better, so perhaps the above answers your questions. If not, I suppose you can appeal my close at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard, as I'm not sure what else I can add other than the above. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- You are going off-topic. We are discussing the rationale behind your decision to close the RfC the way you closed it.
First of all, your own views/preferences shouldn't affect it at all. If you don't like that WP:MREL exists or disagree how its worded, it shouldn't affect your judgement when closing the discussion.
WP:NHC clearly states, that "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but neither is it determined by the closer's own views about what is the most appropriate policy."
And what was your answer when I asked you to provide the rationale? You gave me the numbers (counting heads).
Okay, at least I expect the numbers to be correct. But it turns out they are not, because you picked option 1 from answers "option 1/2" just because you think option 2 was poorly worded. And it wasn't poorly worded at all, it is a standard wording.
Next thing: closer is expected to transparently explain how the decision was reached. It is not clear at all how did you count the numbers. It is not my fault that you can't transparently explain it. My questions are very simple and clear: what is the transparent rationale behind your decision? What policy/rule/guideline is the decision based on? How many people voted for each option? Where is the analysis of the strength of arguments?--Renat 16:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)- It's not about my 'views' of policy, the fairly comprehensive response contains my thinking process behind the close and my understanding of applicable policy and processes. I'm sorry, but I don't see what I can add further except restate in different words some of the things I've already said. If you feel the response is unsatisfactory I advise you to use the steps outlined in my final paragraph above to appeal further. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:54, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- You are going off-topic. We are discussing the rationale behind your decision to close the RfC the way you closed it.
- It makes no sense.
- Okay. Let's reword "None for stronger outcomes." to "One editor for option 3, post-May 2019". But that doesn't change the RfC outcome. Generally reliable doesn't mean absolutely reliable. I don't think the option I perceive you seek, some kind of "generally reliable but 2nd tier compared to top RS such as the BBC or The Times", whilst true, is actually any kind of WP:RSP value. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- "those who said option 1/2 I added them to option 1".
- The main point of the closure summary is that the source is listed as generally reliable now. And this fact is much more than half of the entire content of the summary in terms of meaning. And obviously I expect some meaningful rationale behind that. Answering your question: at this stage of our discussion I still believe that "the RfC was misclosed and there is a different interpretation". But I might be wrong, right? So that's why I am asking you these questions to understand your though process.
- By "it's not particularly long" I mean that it fits on one side of A4 and (surprisingly, compared to the average RfC) isn't particularly verbose, lengthy or complicated. In the same sense, it's easy to pick out the usernames in the signatures next to each boldworded vote and so I'm confused why I'm needed to do that. Do you suspect the RfC was misclosed and believe there's a different interpretation more valid (if so, which)? It's hard to address your concerns without knowing what they are. Same problem of lack of context applies to the last question. The quotation you gave isn't the 'main' rationale for the outcome because it doesn't explain half of the close (wrt issues involving the Russian government), which was explained in my first reply. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. Answering your question: I had no expectations about the outcome.
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Pages using Infobox person with deprecated parameter home town
A tag has been placed on Category:Pages using Infobox person with deprecated parameter home town requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:
This was supposed to have been included in this. It is just a minor wording difference.
Under the criteria for speedy deletion, pages that meet certain criteria may be deleted at any time.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. MB 16:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-18
15:42, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
dispute resolution
Regarding one of your comments on the universal code of conduct regarding dispute resolution: as you know, the dispute resolution noticeboard is a much more recent creation than the mediation committee, and was created to provide a lighter-weight, quicker means to help guide disputes to resolution. The different modes of operation are, in my view, a significant differentiator. The dispute resolution noticeboard is an entry point, whereas formal mediation was a more structured form of engaging the disputants to resolve a problem. But both do/did rely on the involved parties being willing to engage collaboratively. I agree with the need to improve dispute resolution to avoid conduct issues, and responded on this topic at Wikipedia:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultation § In what ways should reporting pathways provide for mediation, reform, or guidance about acceptable behaviours?. isaacl (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting, I didn't actually know that. Most things I can piece together historically are from people mentioning them in conversations or in accessible archives. Still, considering the current DRN I don't really how much better a different non-binding process could be. Take one random 'recent' MedCom case from 2010, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Media Matters for America (and its talk), I see that there's more room having its own page but I don't see that as a meaningful differentiator. I mean, surely one could just ask a DRN volunteer to split the discussion into a separate page, or mediate on a separate page, and you basically get the same result? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Xeno listed the dates in the initial comment so I thought you might have seen them... Think of the difference between the arbitration enforcement noticeboard and the incidents noticeboard as an example of how structure can make a discussion more orderly. Then think of any situation where you've had a mediator guide a discussion through questions to specific persons, one at a time. My understanding is that the mediation committee's mode of operation was designed to be similar to real-world mediation, which means it would have imposed discussion constraints and ensured that each concern would be examined (as much as possible, anyway). A lot of English Wikipedia's modes of operation are influenced by the desire of many editors to get in and out of discussions as quickly as possible, rather than break down issues into separate aspects and work through them. There are advantages to this, but the price paid is that it's hard to reach resolution on complex disputes. isaacl (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that structure helps, I just don't see why we need a separate committee for it. WP:DRN already seems structured? Possibly a different structure would help in some cases, but since people are entering into voluntary mediation anyway, presumably they also don't mind the mediator taking additional structural decisions they feel will help reach an outcome. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- You can ask the question in reverse, given that the mediation committee existed first: why did editors feel the need to create the dispute resolution noticeboard? As I mentioned, it was designed as an entry point to point people to the appropriate venue of discussion, and to handle issues that could be resolved quickly. As a result, I'm not sure participants (including disputants and mediators) have the expectation of a mode of operation that requires sustained participation over a long period of time. For better or worse, most editors want to be able to discuss whatever they want, whenever they want. It's pretty hard to convert a forum that was permissive in this respect into one that is less so. isaacl (talk) 23:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that structure helps, I just don't see why we need a separate committee for it. WP:DRN already seems structured? Possibly a different structure would help in some cases, but since people are entering into voluntary mediation anyway, presumably they also don't mind the mediator taking additional structural decisions they feel will help reach an outcome. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
- Xeno listed the dates in the initial comment so I thought you might have seen them... Think of the difference between the arbitration enforcement noticeboard and the incidents noticeboard as an example of how structure can make a discussion more orderly. Then think of any situation where you've had a mediator guide a discussion through questions to specific persons, one at a time. My understanding is that the mediation committee's mode of operation was designed to be similar to real-world mediation, which means it would have imposed discussion constraints and ensured that each concern would be examined (as much as possible, anyway). A lot of English Wikipedia's modes of operation are influenced by the desire of many editors to get in and out of discussions as quickly as possible, rather than break down issues into separate aspects and work through them. There are advantages to this, but the price paid is that it's hard to reach resolution on complex disputes. isaacl (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-19
15:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Merchandise Giveaway Nomination – Successful
Hey ProcrastinatingReader,
You have been successfully nominated to receive a free t-shirt from the Wikimedia Foundation through our Merchandise Giveaway program. Congratulations and thank you for your hard work! Please email us at merchandisewikimedia.org and we will send you full details on how to accept your free shirt. Thanks!
On behalf of the Merchandise Giveaway program,
-- janbery (talk) 20:17, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Tech News: 2021-20
13:48, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
DS 2021 Review Update
Dear ProcrastinatingReader,
Thank you for participating in the recent discretionary sanctions community consultation. We are truly appreciative of the range of feedback we received and the high quality discussion which occurred during the process. We have now posted a summary of the feedback we've received and also a preview of some of what we expect to happen next. We hope that the second phase, a presentation of draft recommendations, will proceed on time in June or early July. You will be notified when this phase begins, unless you choose to to opt-out of future mailings by removing your name here.
--Barkeep49 & KevinL (aka L235) 21:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)