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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. "Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Current disputes
Talk:List of Linux distributions that run from RAM
Closed discussion |
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Pavol Hnilica
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Pavol Hnilica ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Red Rose 13 (talk · contribs)
- Governor Sheng (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
There are two editors me, Red Rose 13 and Governor Sheng. We are part of the editing process on Our Lady of Medjugorje and all related pages. I just recently spent about 10 hours reading researching and then bringing this information to the Pavol Hnilica page. I am under the understanding if I bring information from a secondary, reliable source I don't need to ask permission to post. On the Our Lady of Medjugorje talk page another advanced editor Slp1 has been working with us and with her help we created a list of Excellent and reliable sources and had many discussions including archives.[1] Archive 4 [2] I pulled this information from these excellent sources list. He is now challenging these sources. We need a mediator to help us resolve these issues. To me Governor Sheng seems to have an agenda and I want the page to balanced, neutral and truthful. Please help. Because we have gone through this on other pages as well. Jozo Zovko and Pavao Žanić for example I am open to learning.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
1. Someone needs to oversee these pages and there many 2. I am open to learning guidelines that I may not be aware of and I think Governor Sheng is too. So if an expert can guide us, that would be great. 3. Discussions between us and an expert, neutral editor would be extremely helpful.
Summary of dispute by Governor Sheng
The issue is going for months now. There are numerous problems here. First of all, the sources Red Rose uses in the article in dispute are Sullivan and Klimek. [6] [7]. Although I informed her that the two sources received negative peer review on the talk page of another article, she went on editing without giving any feedback.
Then, back in August, when our disputes started, Red Rose stated "An editor cannot change a whole page without consulting with other editors on the pages talk page. Bring your ideas to the talk page.
Now, they're doing the same thing at the article about Hnilica, major editing, and insertions, major reconstruction of the article, with sources negatively peer-reviewed without any consultation with other editors whatsoever. --Governor Sheng (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Pavol Hnilica discussion
First statement by moderator (Hnilica)
Okay. I will act as moderator, at least initially. Please read the ground rules. Be civil and concise. Some of the statements on the article talk page are long, and are hard to understand. The purpose of statements is to enable the other editors to understand the statement, not to make the editor making the statement feel better. Comment on content, not on contributors.
I will start by asking each editor to make a brief, preferably one paragraph, statement of what the issues are. I understand that the issues may include: questions about the reliability of a source or sources; questions about what Wikipedia policy is; and issues about article content. If there is a question about a source, please state what the source is, and give a very brief explanation of the issue. (We can expand on the issue later after we determine what the issues are.) If you want a particular portion of the article either changed or left the same, please say very briefly what you want. (We can expand on the issue later.) If there is a question about Wikipedia policies or guidelines, please ask it in the form of a concise question, and I will try to answer it.
Do not respond to the statements of other editors. Address your comments to me and to the community. If you want to discuss back-and-forth, do it in the section that I have provided (and other editors may ignore the discussion).
Remember that the purpose of discussion is to improve the article, and the article should provide a brief neutral statement to the readers. Please provide a brief civil and concise statement. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Hnilica)
Thank you for helping. There is a lot and I made it as concise as possible.
(1) Source: is a one to two sentence footnote. Does Wikipedia allow footnotes to be used as a reference? Section: World Network of Marian Devotion (10) reference. I went to that book and page 194 [8]
(2) Criminal claim: I have researched in all the books I have access to in regards to the claim of one author, Yallop, who claims Hnilica of laundering money and he is the only author that claims that. Is that allowed especially when it seems he was never convicted of anything. Does this apply here? WP:PUBLICFIGURE - "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out." Also, the whole paragraph seems accusatory rather than just factual statements.
(3) There are four paragraphs discussing something Hnilica was criminally indicted for and in the end found not guilty. The four paragraphs begins with “In 1992, Hnilica was indicted of criminal involvement” There is way too much detail that doesn’t relate or is not necessary. Also does this also apply here? WP:PUBLICFIGURE
(4) Source: (See last paragraph beginning with Drazen Kutlesa): called OGLEDALO PRAVDE in Croatian I have had to use google translate it [[9]] is a Primary source, self-published, directly involved in the controversy, not a reliable secondary source, not independent. It should not be used on this page or any other page related to Medjugorje. Bishop Peric was directly involved in the controversies in Medjugorje and wrote the preface & conclusion after Drazen Kutlesa compiled it for him. Discussion #1 - See here for Our Lady of Medjugorje talk page discussion including Slp1 who is our “mentor” on this page [10] and scroll down to “@Slp1:@Governor Sheng: Governor Sheng (1) I notice you are creating and editing pages…” and Discussion #2 the Hnilica talk page discussion: *[11] second to last paragraph
source issue: Also Bishop Ratko Peric was deeply involved in the controversy produced other literature and they are all primary sources and shouldn't be used on Wikipedia. Here is one: [12]
Source issue: Nikola Bulat also wrote a booklet produced by Episcopal Ordinariate Mostar. [13]
(5) This editing problem began on the Our Lady of Medjugorje page and is expanded out to most of the pages that are directly related to OLM page Jozo Zovko, Pavao Žanić, Ratko Perić, Slavko Barbarić, Tomislav Vlašić, Frane Franić, Pavol Hnilica WP:NEUTRALEDIT concerned about an agenda.
Also sometimes the reference author is named with no page number or reference link - probably just an oversight. Red Rose 13 (talk) 18:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the article about Hnilica. There are two books used which received negative peer review. These are: Sullivan, Randall (2004). The Miracle Detective. New York: Grove Press [14] and Medjugorje and the Supernatural: Science, Mysticism, and Extraordinary Religious Experience by Daniel Maria Klimek Oxford University Press, 2018. [15] I object these books be used in articles related to OLM. Both authors are clearly partisan, which can be seen here for Sullivan and here for Klimek. Neither Sullivan nor Klimek is never mentioned as reputable sources on the subject of Medjugorje. A list of reputable authors on the subject is given by Chris Maunder, a well-known author on the issue of apparitions, in his book "Our Lady of Nations". I can provide a quote from the book later. In short, neither author, nor Sullivan nor Klimek, is mentioned. The second issue is the misrepresentation of sources by Red Rose, twisting the wording of sources or breaking the rules of WP:SYNTH [16]. --Governor Sheng (talk) 16:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Second Statement by Moderator (Hnilica)
Read the ground rules for this mediation again. Neither of you is following the rules. The rules say to be civil and concise; 433 words is not concise. The rules say to comment on content, not contributors. Saying that another editor is misrepresenting sources is commenting on a contributor, and can be considered a civility violation.
So I will impose a structure on second-round statements. Break your statement into up to three parts, which may consist of: sources that you wish to use or to discredit; article content issues; questions about policies and guidelines (do not pose rhetorical questions); other issues. Please summarize what you think are the issues.
Second Statements by Editors (Hnilica)
Second Statement by Red Rose 13
Source Issues
Article Content Issues
Questions About Policies and Guidelines
Other Issues
Second Statement by Governor Sheng
Source Issues
Article Content Issues
Questions About Policies and Guidelines
Other Issues
Back-and-forth discussion (Hnilica)
Non-constructive comment. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:11, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Volunteer Note - Is this about the content of the article, the formatting of it, or the sources? 64.121.103.144 (talk) 00:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |