SPECIFICO (3)
SPECIFICO is topic-banned from Julian Assange for 2 weeks. Additionally, with permission from the (now involved) admin who placed the Consensus Required sanction on the Assange article last year, I have unilaterally removed that restriction. If any uninvolved admin thinks the article would be better with the restriction in place and wants to take ownership of its enforcement, they may add it back. Awilley (talk) 16:43, 5 November 2020 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
Jack Upland has been engaged in a longstanding and understandable effort to trim page length at Julian Assange. I restored one removed sentence [1], a NYT paraphrase of the Obama Administration's views on the constitutional implications of indicting Assange; the text had been in the article for over a year [2]. SPECIFICO reverted my restoration of the sentence [3], and I informed SPECIFICO their action violated DS (see discussion here [4]). While SPECIFICO has continued to edit at Talk:Julian Assange and elsewhere, they have not self-reverted, nor participated in the ongoing talk page discussion that appears to favor keeping the sentence. At Talk:Julian Assange, SPECIFICO has previously acknowledged that removing longstanding text, if the removal is contested, is a violation of discretionary sanctions on the page: [5], [6]. Awilley recently confirmed at Talk:Julian Assange that re-removing longstanding content is a violation of the DS on the page [7]. Guy, who originally placed the sanctions on the page [8], has responded [9], "
I have notified SPECIFICO here [52], and also left a comment at Guy's talk page. -Darouet (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICO@Swarm:: I see that you feel I should respond to this complaint. Please be assured my silence was not, as you apparently felt, out of disrespect for AE. I had nothing to say in rebuttal because I did not see any Admin sentiment favoring the complaint. As has been stated below, Darouet escalated this to AE in record time -- less than 24 hours -- without the customary courtesy of a warning message on my talk page or of allowing a reasonable time for an article talk page response. This minimal content disagreement could easily have been resolved on talk in short order, much better than the immediate escalation. My edit summary explained -- too tersely I now see -- what I meant by SYNTH. In hindsight, it would have been clearer to say UNDUE WEIGHT because the SYNTH depends on the larger narrative of the article. My concern was that the repeated and excessive mentions of First Amendment press freedoms reinforces Assange apologists' narrative that he remains a journalist rather than an accused felon. This has been a longstanding matter of contention on that article. As you'll see on the talk page after my removal, I am not the only editor who was concerned about this. Sources' reporting on Assange has changed a lot in recent years, but the article has clung to some now deprecated narratives about him. In a previous talk page thread, the interpretation of the DS page restriction was discussed and appeared to support the removal of disputed text pending talk page consensus to include. See here. I don't see anything in the sequence of events to suggest that I willfully flouted that page restriction. Why didn't I immediately give a detailed substantive reply on the article talk page after my removal? I am busy with community responsibilities IRL during the pandemic and my history shows that I currently edit sporadically while I am not at my desk. But you'll note that Darouet launched a talk thread with a personalized title naming SPECIFICO rather than the content issue to be discussed. When I asked him to correct this he was not immediately responsive, and this didn't make me eager to hasten my reply about the edit. Darouet then continued to personalize his concern in that thread and the following thread wherein I don't think it's appropriate to refer to a violation that had not yet been adjudicated. Given that the restriction has now not only been removed from that page, but deprecated as fundamentally flawed and unworkable, it's hard to understand any rationale for a sanction at this time. I edit in AP2 and BLP areas where disagreements are common and I do not edit war or push the limits of DS or consensus processes. What is the preventive purpose of a sanction at this time? It would appear to be more a case of rules for rules' sake, and not the way I have ever seen AE or WP operate. SPECIFICO talk 02:38, 2 November 2020 (UTC) @Bradv: Pardon me for repeating myself, but at this recent thread, @JzG: who was the "owner" of the Consensus Required page restriction, confirmed my interpretation of that sanction. On that thread and on @Awilley:'s talk page, it is documented that there was disagreement about which version requires talk page consensus before reinstatement. If Admins believe that it is a substantive disruption to revert reinstatement of old content without prior talk page consensus, why have you opted to remove this page restriction? I am not understanding why -- now that any editor can arrive and make the same removal I did -- it is not "disruptive" now but it was seriously disruptive a week ago? As Levivich showed (by reinstating the disputed content) the problem was easily resolved. I don't edit war and the matter would have proceeded to talk page resolution as the minor and routine editing disagreement is was and is. Bradv, as you know from various discussions on your talk page, there is disagreement among experienced editors and Admins as to what constitutes a revert and which edit triggers BRD and ONUS. I'd be very disappointed to learn that I could not rely on the recent Admin opinion of in the cited talk page thread to remove what I continue to feel is UNDUE emphasis created by the disputed text. Again, the text conflates a specific concern of the Obama Justice Department regarding prosecution with the general narrative that Assange is a journalist. As another editor has pointed out on the talk page, this information is already stated elsewhere in the article. Yes, the disputed text is properly sourced, but SYNTH-like and UNDUE text is not about Verification. It's about NPOV. Finally, in case it's not known to all the Admins here, Darouet and Thucydides411, who have not denied being real-life friends have a longstanding coincidence of their editing in what many have called battleground style and often appears to be meatpuppetry Their interaction history demonstrates this is widespread and longstanding. I have long been among the targets of their animus, dating to when they were disruptively tag-teaming the Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections article and Thucydides was sanctioned. here among the dozens of times that eventually led to his TBAN. It feels to me as if Darouet's hair-trigger AE complaint, hours after opening a talk page thread with a WP:POINT-y header was Darouet's payback for Thucydides411's frustration that his recent prior AE complaint against me was closed without action. I think this is disrespectful of the AE process and the time and attention of multiple Admins and editors. SPECIFICO talk 15:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC) There's a clearly documented disagreement as to whether "longstanding" text that lacks talk page evidence of prior consensus is privileged. JzG as owner of the page restriction had recently affirmed my interpretation. I'm not dumb or inexperienced enough to willfully violate a page restriction or to disrupt a contentious article. I really think this should be closed and we can all consider whether any of the add-on restrictions beyond 1RR makes any sense for the community. SPECIFICO talk 15:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC) I have commented on the article talk page thread, including a link to the 2019 RfC which @Bradv: closed documenting that editors rejected portraying Assange as a "journalist." SPECIFICO talk 20:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC) @Awilley: I'm not understanding why you went from pointing out that I am not a disruptive editor at that article to a fairly long topic block for an edit that any WP editors could now repeat without tripping a page restriction. Be that as it may, I'd ask you to leave this open for several days (during which I'll stay off that page, if you wish) because I've just now responded and pointed Admins to a lot of information and context that some of them may wish to review. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC) Statement by JzG (SPECIFICO eleventy)I applied the DS in November 2019, but since then I have become involved with discussions on the Talk page so as noted a previous time someone dragged SPECIFICO here I consider myself involved on that article and don't take any administrative role in this endless ongoing dispute. My opinion as an editor expressed on Talk has no more or less weight than anyone else's and I would hope would not be interpreted any other way. It mainly just frustrates me, for exactly the reason noted above: in my view (and in my admittedly limited experience there) the article is WP:OWNed by a small group of people whose view of Assange appears to be almost Messianic, and at odds with the consensus view of independent sources. My view of Assange is ambivalent. I think that's also a fair summary of the RS, but not the current state of the article. Guy (help! - typo?) 15:47, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Objective3000Frankly, I think the characterizations of SPECIFICO not engaging in discussion and the talk page discussion appearing to favor keeping the sentence are premature since you filed this 18 hours after starting the discussion. I also think perhaps it may have made sense for you to go to the TP before restoring text that appears redundant in an overly long article, particularly in a consensus required article; no matter the letter of the law. Just my humble opinions about collaboration. O3000 (talk) 15:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Sir JosephIt's really simple, do all editors need to abide by DS? And if so, was this violated, "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). This includes making edits similar to the ones that have been challenged. If in doubt, don't make the edit."? Sir Joseph (talk) 16:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by LevivichThe text that Specifico removed: Specifico's edit summary for the removal: What the source (NYTimes) wrote: It is not WP:SYNTH, it is directly stated by the source. Lev!vich 18:12, 28 October 2020 (UTC) So far, we've tried doing nothing, and it hasn't worked. I know it sounds crazy and it's not what the AE admin are used to doing, but how about we try actually enforcing a rule this time? I know what you're thinking: "it's a clear violation, we don't know what to do", or perhaps, "she's an AP2 regular, and I agree with her politics, so she is above the rules", but consensus required just might work if admin actually enforced it, you know, equally, as if everyone were held to the same rules. You may have noticed that AE is not getting inundated with reports of editors breaking consensus required left and right, it's just getting inundated with reports about Specifico. So maybe, just maybe, doing something more than issuing a fifth warning (or throwing up our hands in defeat), who knows, actually might make a difference. After five reports in two months, maybe we can give doing something a try, mmm? Lev!vich 14:37, 29 October 2020 (UTC) @O3: I've considered whether AE has been weaponized by three different editors bringing four valid complaints with diffs of clear PAG/DS violations, and rejected the theory as implausible. Now please consider whether the diff in this case is or is not a violation of the consensus required restriction, and whether the edit summary did or did not state a valid reason for the edit. Lev!vich 15:10, 29 October 2020 (UTC) @Bradv: Seriously with that question? Because no one wants to get sanctioned; because it's pending at AE; because the last person to complain about this was sanctioned. Let's not fault editors for reporting things to a noticeboard instead of edit warring. So, I've restored it now. Let's see what happens next. Lev!vich 03:01, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Jack UplandThe text is a paraphrase of NYT and not "SYNTH". By the way, I am not a fan of Assange, still less a cultist, and I have made extensive edits to the page, so I reject the claim of "ownership" by a cabal. Yes, there is a small group of editors who are clearly pro-Assange, just as there is a small group who are anti-Assange...--Jack Upland (talk) 20:49, 28 October 2020 (UTC) Statement by AquillionThis is another example of why blanket "consensus required" DSes are a terrible idea. This one should not be enforced and should be removed from the article. Consider: There is no indication that the text under dispute has ever had any discussion. Yes, it has a degree of implicit consensus due to its age; that would be worth considering in any discussions, and would matter if an RFC failed to reach consensus otherwise. But that is not a strong consensus, certainly not enough to try and shut down editing or to substitute discussions with a pointless digression in an effort to win a content dispute, followed by a near-immediate leap to AE in an effort to remove the other editor. Is that the sort of "discussion" and consensus-building we want to encourage on controversial articles? Is that supposed to represent the first step in our consensus-building process on the articles that most sorely need it? Consensus is an important part of how Wikipedia operates, but it is always required - and reaching it, in any sort of constructive long-term sense, requires discussion of the actual issue under dispute; when editors are sharply at odds, that discussion only happens because both sides feel a pressure that brings them to the table to hammer things out. It's clear (and has been for a long, long time) that so-called consensus required DSes are actively harmful to such discussion; putting too much force behind one default outcome encourages people who prefer that outcome in any particular dispute to stonewall and contribute minimally to discussions outside of insisting that policy backs their version. A situation where any editor can, at any time, via a single revert, demand that any change to an article go through a full consensus-building process before any changes at all can be made to the relevant text is simply not viable, especially when so much of our process depends on lightweight "implicit" consensus and a willingness to compromise or back down without going to such lengths every time. Even Donald Trump, the article which (if I recall correctly) was the genesis of the Consensus Required restriction, is now under the much more reasonable Statement by Thucydides411The question here is simple: will an editor who intentionally and repeatedly violates a DS restriction be sanctioned in any way? SPECIFICO is perfectly aware of the "consensus required" DS restriction. SPECIFICO simply thinks they don't have to abide by it. At the same time, SPECIFICO asks others to abide by it at Julian Assange, and even threatens to go to AE to enforce it ([53] [54]). Just a few weeks ago, SPECIFICO violated the "consensus required" DS restriction at Julian Assange, by re-removing longstanding content from the lede: [55]. The only reason SPECIFICO was not sanctioned was because some (but not all) admins reasoned that SPECIFICO's edit could be interpreted as falling into a BLP exception. I found this argument absurd, since SPECIFICO was removing material that WP:BLP requires to be included (a living person's denial of accusations made against them - per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, The DS rules are supposed to prevent disruptive behavior, such as removing longstanding content from an article and then demanding long-winded discussions in order to re-insert it. It would be one thing if a normally collaborative editor inadvertently violated the DS restriction. That's not the case here. Last time SPECIFICO violated the DS restriction at Julian Assange, they barely attempted to justify their removal of the material in question. They repeatedly asserted that the material was WP:UNDUE, without any explanation. When I and other editors provided a long list of reliable sources that backed up the material in question, SPECIFICO again simply asserted that the material was undue, again without explanation. When asked to provide any justification for the assertion that the material in question was undue, SPECIFICO just asserted that they had already done so - despite the fact that they hadn't (as I detailed here). They were just stone-walling. You can see the full conversation here, and verify that my summary is accurate: [57]. In this case, SPECIFICO has again justified their edit with a nonsense reference to a Wikipedia acronym that doesn't apply. They assert that the material is WP:SYNTH, despite the fact that it's quite obviously an accurate paraphrase of the source (see Levivich's statement above). Again, we are not dealing with a collaborative editor who has inadvertently run afoul of a technical rule. We're dealing with someone who needlessly insults the subject of the BLP, who refuses to justify their edits (and when they do, throws out obviously non-applicable Wikipedia acronyms), and who threatens others with this very same DS restriction, while at the same time violating it themselves. SPECIFICO has not commented in this case, just as they didn't comment in the last case about their violation of "consensus required" at Julian Assange: [58]. They apparently don't think they have to answer here, because there won't be any consequences for their violations of the restrictions. Last time, Awilley stated,
Statement by MandrussAs far as I'm concerned, Donald Trump is as close as we have ever come to peace in political areas – that's even more remarkable given the article's subject – and could serve as something of a model for the best we can expect. We use fairly strict BRD there (consensus required for any change that has been disputed by reversion), and a rule that prior consensus is required to change something backed by consensus. The article's consensus list, now at 38 active items, embodies the response to Doug Weller's comment, When this system doesn't work, it's an editor behavior problem, and no system will work very well without enforcement of some degree of good editor behavior. That means more than blocking disruptive IPs and newbies. Recipe for chaos: Decline to enforce standing rules because we (still) can't agree they are good rules. Work toward rule improvements all you like; in the meantime enforce the rules we have. That's how civilization has worked for at least eight centuries, and it was good enough to get us to the Moon. I'll offer my standard challenge: Show me a system that is proven to work better over some amount of time in areas of politics, and point me to said proof. I am responding to previous comments, but I otherwise consider this area of discussion to be off topic on this page. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC) Statement by Mr ErnieWe've had a lot of discussions the past few months over 1RR, reverts, consensus, onus, and enforcement. But I go back to what Bradv said in their first comment in this discussion, namely "these restrictions need to be applied uniformly, or they simply won't work." And Muboshgu in their first comment "I agree that I don't want to see discretionary sanctions enforced selectively." I don't think there's any real question that the edits here (and in SPECIFICO 1) violated the sanction. I guess that the restrictions are not applied uniformly to all editors, and I'm not sure why that is the case. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
|
Requesting page restrictions for Margot (activist)
Request concerning Margot (activist)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBGG
Margot (activist) is the article for a Polish non-binary LGBTQIA activist and co-founder of the Stop Bzdurom collective.
An RfC recently concluded on the article's talk page arrived at the consensus that, absent direct communication from Margot specifying her wishes, Wikipedia should refrain from deadnaming her in the article's lead and infobox.
The question of whether deadnaming should occur in the rest of the article was left unresolved at the closure of the recent RfC, but several editors expressed criticism of the article section Margot (activist) § Naming controversies, with Gleeanon409 remarking, The naming controversy section should also be removed as it’s a magnet for misgendering trolling.
Today an editor has been repeatedly inserting Margot's deadname into the article, diffs: 1, 2, 3. It seems that MOS:DEADNAME has recently been updated to support complete exclusion of the deadname from the article as usual practice; but if I understand how everything works properly with Arbitration Enforcement, it seems like this combination of circumstances may still warrant placing page restrictions on the Margot (activist) article under WP:ARBGG as a person related to any gender-related dispute or controversy
. Cheers, ‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 16:17, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Margot (activist)
Statement by complainer
As the infamous author of the three edits, I have now read MOS:DEADNAME five times without finding any "has recently been updated to support complete exclusion of the deadname from the article as usual practice". In fact, it says "In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, the birth name should be included only if the person was notable under that name; it should then appear in the lead, and may be used elsewhere in the article where contextually appropriate." As the use of her deadname is the subject of a whole paragraph of the article, I would say it is contextually appropriate; the only argument that could be put forward from MOS:DEADNAME is one of privacy, which is preposterous here, as the information is present several times in the talk page as well as in multiple quoted sources. The RfC clearly concluded that the deadname should be removed from the lead and infobox (which is not in the article), with a single commenter asking for it to be removed from the "Naming controversy" section. I edited the first and second time without reading any of the material, as no man knows all wikipedia policies, including me. The third time, I had; while my edits are being used to ask for protection of the article, and I am being subtly threatened with disciplinary action, my understanding of the RfC and MOS:DEADNAME is that my second edit was correctly reverted, while the first and third were reverted without merit. I will furthermore add that I have no political agenda in the matter and that, if I had one, it would be to annoy Polish conservatives in general, and Catholics, in particular, as much as possible, and that I would wholeheartedly support a bill to only allow attendance to the Sejm in drags. complainer 16:47, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Gleeanon409
The article needs long-term semi protection, and likely ongoing vigilance for confirmed accounts misgendering Margot. The controversy section, the only place the deadnaming was still done, had the name removed by me. There was still a lot of questionable sources used there. Subsequently the entire section was removed and summarized in one sentence elsewhere in the article which I fully support.
The consensus on the page has been that her birth name, although prominent in right-wing sources, was a deadname to Margot, and never notable on its own. Gleeanon 16:32, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- To be fair, the Updated MOS section that Truthious 𝔹andersnatch refers was in process of being worded on the MOS page, during the Margot RfC. And was done expressly for situations like this which are, I think, particularly stressful and draining particularly to LGBTQ editors and readers. These battles are toxic and poisonous to collegial editing.I’m not sure what would help the project as a whole but addressing casual hate speech, specifically against LGBTQ people, but maybe incorporating all minorities, could ease things for everyone. Gleeanon 03:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Struthious Bandersnatch
@Complainer: I apologize if you feel threatened that I pinged you, but I don't think you should. I brought your edits up in this request because you essentially acted out the behavior described by Gleeanon409 in the RfC; then, since I was mentioning you in passing, I felt it appropriate that you at least be notified of this discussion by ping.
An operative part of MOS:DEADNAME which you quote is only if the person was notable under that name
; the most salient part which was updated since the RfC began says, If such a subject was not notable under their former name, it usually should not be included in that or any other article,[ⅆ] even if some reliable sourcing exists for it. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name.
- ^
ⅆ A "deadname" from a pre-notability period of the subject's life should not appear in that person's bio, in other articles (including lists and disambiguation pages), category names, templates, etc.
One of the conclusions arrived at by the RfC in the article's talk page was that Margot was not notable under her birth name. --‿Ꞅtruthious 𝔹andersnatch ͡ |℡| 17:27, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Juliett Tango Papa
The deadnaming and misgendering by User:Niemajużnazwy, 5.184.34.193, 85.222.96.146, User:GizzyCatBella, and User:Complainer is awful. Deadnaming makes people die inside, please just make it stop. Juliett Tango Papa (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
GizzyCatBella
Please note [63] - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:12, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Result concerning Margot (activist)
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Seems reasonable. I semied the page for a year and I am waiting for more comments about what we need to do --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 17:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Guerillero: I'd recommend just leaving it with the semi for now and monitoring to see what happens. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Jenos450
Jenos450 is indefinitely topic banned from all |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Jenos450
Special:Diff/974602904
Note that their edit summaries are also highly misleading, with improper use of minor edits and inappropiate referal to guidelines.
References
Special:Diff/986678708 Discussion concerning Jenos450Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Jenos450
In various summaries I tried to explain to him that the meaning of dassa/dassie changes with the usage and it doesn't appropriately mean Slavery. I would have suggested him to include this statement as a note than on the introduction part as it was looking odd. Instead he never took this to the talk page even though, regardless of me asking him to take this to the page's talk page.
The conversation could be found here.
I gave him warning twice and suggested him to discuss the issues on the page's talk page but he kept on vandalizing. Further, I was about to report him to an admin today. Jenos450 (talk) References
Statement by VanamondeI have been concerned for some time by Jenos450's propensity to stray from what reliable sources say into speculation and original research. In addition to the evidence above, there's these discussions [64], [65], [66]. The third one, in particular, is concerning; BLP applies to talk pages also. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:21, 3 November 2020 (UTC) Statement by RegentsPark
Statement by NewslingerJenos450's edit to the Amit Shah article in Special:Diff/981172473 removed the text "Shah has been a key present-day proponent of Hindutva.[1]" References
The source, The Economic Times, states: "Amit Shah, the party’s general secretary in charge of Uttar Pradesh, is working towards a Hindu consolidation, say BJP leaders, familiar with the unfolding strategy. [...] The plan is to spread the Hindutva agenda and encourage Hindus to vote against alleged 'protectors of minorities' or parties such as the ruling Samajwadi Party and the Congress." If Jenos450 wanted to comply with WP:BLPSTYLE, as claimed in the edit summary, the correct action would have been to replace the word "key" with something more precise. Instead, the edit removed the only sourced text linking Shah to Hindutva from the article, effectively whitewashing the article. — Newslinger talk 01:14, 4 November 2020 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Jenos450
|
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) – Atsme 💬 📧 17:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- indef t-ban from Antifacism (United States) imposed July 22, 2019
Nov 14, 2019 - asked Awilley's advice Nov 18, 2019 - needed more clarity at ARCA Nov 23, 2019 - AWilley's further response to my request for advice May 2020, my appeal on Awilley's TP Awilley's denial
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Awilley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- No need, I got the pings. ~Awilley (talk) 04:48, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Atsme
My t-ban was imposed a year & 3 months ago. I have stayed away from the topic throughout my t-ban, but am concerned that I might inadvertently mention the words in a discussion where the topic might be raised, such as discussions at WP:RSN, WP:BLP, or WP:NPOV not to mention potential hinderances of my work at WP:NPP & AfC. I've created a few articles during the past year such as Robert H. Boyle,Christopher Demos-Brown, & Don Stewart (Bonaire activist) which quickly come to mind, reviewed/promoted a few GAs, worked a little in NPP & AfC, worked a bit in WikiProject Dogs, and tried to fix a few things in AP2, participate in some RfCs, but I don't have to convince anyone here that AP is much too controversial a topic area to spend very much time there so I try to avoid it when I can, and try to help when I can. Atsme 💬 📧 17:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Awilley
My main criteria for appeals are that 1. the editor show some amount of recognition of what the problem was that led to the ban, and 2. they make some kind of commitment to avoid the problem in the future. I haven't seen that here, otherwise the ban would be lifted by now. In this case a good appeal (IMO) might look something like the following: "I recognize that 'bludgeoning' and accusing people of gaslighting on talk pages isn't helpful. In the future if I find myself in similar stressful situations where I feel like people aren't listening or are ganging up on me I will..." (multiple choice)
- ...state my case and move on
- ...edit something else for a while and come back to it later
- ...take a break from the computer and do something I enjoy
- ...ask a trusted friend for advice
- ...put a sticky note on my monitor reminding me to assume good faith
I haven't had time to review Atsme's recent contributions other than skimming Talk:Hunter_Biden#Hunter_Biden's_alleged_laptop,_Post_Story,_and_related_topics a few days ago where things were pretty heated and she seemed to come down on the wrong side of BLPCRIME. To her credit she did ask me for advice and backed off as I suggested, so there's that. Anyway I'd feel much better about this appeal if my points 1 & 2 were addressed. @Atsme: ~Awilley (talk) 04:48, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
Statement by MastCell
Atsme's topic ban was placed because of her habit of bludgeoning article talkpages with partisan rhetoric, despite previous promises to avoid such behavior ([70]).
She has continued this pattern of bludgeoning and partisan rhetoric, leading to a pointed warning from an uninvolved admin in August ("you have gone all the way back to inappropriate persistence and 'overzealousness to win'... Please go back and re-read your own appeal, Atsme, and start living up to your promises, or I will consider reinstating the topic ban.")
As recently as a week ago, she was deluging Talk:Hunter Biden, using low-quality sources to push dubious or discredited partisan insinuations about a living person, resulting in another caution from a different uninvolved admin ("It might be a good idea to step away from the Hunter Biden article for a few days... from a brief skim it looks like you're wanting to use lower quality sources to say negative things about a living person.")
Atsme summarizes this acitivty by saying she "tried to fix a few things in AP2", which seems a bit incomplete, if not misleading. To the extent that the topic ban was less about the narrow topic area (antifa) and more about a pattern of behavior, I'd like to understand why we should expect the behavior in question to have changed. Atsme, what is your understanding of why the topic ban was placed, and why the problems identified in Awilley's topic-ban notice won't recur? MastCell Talk 21:20, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Atsme
Statement by PackMecEng
I am not really seeing anything presented as a reason to keep a topic ban on Antifa. Honestly the arguments against lifting the topic ban are weak, even if they were actually related to the topic at hand. From what I can tell Atsme has done very well sticking to the issues and has taken feedback whenever offered and greatly improved overall. At the end of the day it has been over a year with no infractions and with her being an overall positive contributor to the encyclopedia. I see nothing to be gained by keeping a topic ban on Antifa in place. PackMecEng (talk) 03:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor)
Result of the appeal by Atsme
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Support lifting tban - It's been over a year, didn't see any problems since the tban was put in place, she knows the consequences if she goes back and starts problems in that topic area. It's been plenty long enough to extend a second chance. My confidence is high that this productive editor will be ok. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very dubious about lifting the ban. Atsme's roughly 75 edits to the Fox News RfC this summer contrasts both with her claim above that she tries to avoid AP when she can, and with the promises she made in order to have the larger topic ban, from the whole of AP, lifted in February 2019: "If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas." It seems likely that the comments the RfC closers made about bludgeoning referred principally to Atsme (possibly to others as well): "There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC.". I warned Atsme in August 2020 about this egregious backsliding from her promises,[71] and AFAICS she has been a little more circumspect since then. That would be the last two and a half months only. She says nothing about this in her appeal here, and I frankly think her description of her participation in AP is rather misleading, if only by omission. Well, actually not only by omission. I see her dissing a reliable source here and here in October. And when I saw her input in this thread on Talk:Hunter Biden, suggesting that The Washington Examiner (the publisher of the 'Hunter Biden laptop scandal', if you remember) is just as reliable as NYTimes, WaPo and CNN, I started to consider posting a new warning to her. Her comments in the entire thread are very interesting in relation to her demure claim above to "try to avoid [AP] when I can, and try to help when I can". Is it really the same person talking..? My point is that Awilley's TBAN was well-considered, and needs to stay, lest there is yet more backsliding from Atsme. IMO she is very good at abiding by topic bans, but quite bad at keeping herself from tendentious editing on her own. Bishonen | tålk 22:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC).